Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I don't understand the question. In asking to "discern", are you asking to distinguish or discriminate? Is it a rhetorical question? You are saying quite clearly that if the music has any form of commerce attached to it then it can't be "real" and/or "authentic". This is surely nonsense.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
We also have the po-faced who have even less to offer this board, the music or the world at large.
Before answering the question you will have to define 'authentic', let alone 'traditional'. (a path more than well trod!)
Also what you actually mean by 'Commercial irish Music'.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
To my way of thinking if the music is played for the sole purpose of making money it's commercial. If it's played for the sole purpose of one's enjoyment it's not.
That said I believe there to be many that cross between both realms.
By the way I don't see how the responses are "wisearse", painfully true in Llig's case and fairly to the point in yhallhouse's.
Main Entry: 1com·merce
Pronunciation: \ˈkä-(ˌ)mərs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin commercium, from com- + merc-, merx merchandise
Date: 1537
1 : social intercourse : interchange of ideas, opinions, or sentiments
2 : the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale involving transportation from place to place
3 : sexual intercourse
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
You must be having some interesting "tune sessions," yhaalhouse (is that what they are calling it these days?).
Seriously, there has always been an element of "commerce" if you will, to playing this music. Do you think Johnny Doran travelled around to all those fairs and stuff playing for free? Do you think Patsy Touhy, Michael Coleman, and Paddy Killoran played on the stage for free?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
But to be fare to Brains, he was probably only referring to Number 2. Which only leaves him to define at what point he wants to call it a large scale. For example, how many CDs do you have to sell before it becomes "large scale"? 1,000? 100,000? Would that make Moving Hearts "real authentic Irish traditional" and The Chieftains "Commercial Irish Traditional music"?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Wow that's an interesting definition for commerce, it explains a lot about what's going on in the world. Not only does sex sell, it is commerce. But a lot of using sex to sell things involves the idea that you can't have something you want, so in a way it is luring you into something that will not make you any money, or score any illicit 'commerce' HA
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
If or when (forgive my naiveté) Johnny Docherty played for his supper then all he did was skip the step of passing any money he might have been paid right back. That said, I do agree I placed a rather narrow definition on the question at hand however I still maintain that the difference is in the motive behind the playing especially in examples such as playing for one's meal.
If one expects to receive something of value to them (sans solely their own or others enjoyment of the music) in exchange for their playing then to my way of thinking such playing is commercial. I fail to see how the "scale" would be the determining factor.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
"...commercial Irish traditional music and real authentic Irish traditional music..."
Does this mean that if it is real and authentic (dictionaries out again please) it can't be commercial? If so, it follows that commercial music has to be changed in some way in order to sell, which I assume is what you meant in the OP.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Ed, the problem there though is that no one ever does anything with only one motive.
It's all very well playing tunes and expecting nothing in return. I do it all the time. But this narrow view precludes every musician who ever got paid in any way from being described as being non-commercial. I think that on balance, the scale of the pay does matter. (though where you draw the line is hopeless, of course)
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So when I play tunes at a session it's the former and when the band plays the same stuff at a gig, it's the latter?
Brians, is this where you are looking to draw the line?
Or is it the material itself? For example, because the band plays tight arrangements of sets made of the same tunes we play in sessions, yes with harmonies ("Forsooth! Burn the heathen!") and other gimmicks, then the material becomes the latter?
Should we go down a list of famous artists and bands, and declare them one or the other?
If you're just looking for opinions, not a refined and defined debate, then mine is if you're playing the good stuff, it's the good stuff. Fair play if you can make scratch at it. Everybody's gotta eat.
I see this from your initial post too. What could possibly be the difference between the music we love and making a few bucks at it? One word: commercial.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Brians, I read that you’ve been playing traditional music all your life ‘even before it became popular’. So what is your opinion? And when, in your opinion, did it become ‘popular’. Was this when it started to become ‘commercial’?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
What is wrong with being paid for something you truly love? I bet there's a lot of folks here that are very well-versed in the tradition that wouldn't mind someone paying all the bills and living expenses for playing music so that they can play it even more!
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Sadly, there is no time stamp on our posts here. Will Brians come back to help us define his question, in order to further the debate? Has he taken his questions and gone home after Llig and yhaalhouse teased him a wee bit? Will anyone care?
Well, I cared enough to check back to see. [shrug]
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
If you truly love a person & make payments for being with him or her does that effect the relationship? Not that this has anything to do with paying musicians.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Sometimes it's just a matter of luck. The musicians do what they do, and maybe they'll be in the right place at the right time and get a little appreciation for what they do. Sometimes, even given the "breaks," the musicians will settle back into the comfort of obscurity; other times, they have the drive to keep "going for it." That can be a very difficult lifestyle choice to maintain. I think the main difference is often in the ears or mind of the beholder. Sometimes I'll hear a really good fiddling track on the radio and am surprised to see that it's Celtic Woman.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
It can be good to play tunes with a bit of freedom. Warts & all is what you get if you're under no obligation to polish up the act. Not everyone's cup of tea, though it's something I appreciate. It can be great to have a professional musician playing in session, especially if he or she is playing as a non professional.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Are we veering towards another thread on synesthesia?
If 'Authentic Trad' is green what colour is 'Commercial Trad' and what colour is 'Tourist Trad' (see other thread)?
How long does it take to learn a new instrument by only thinking of colours and not sounds? Does that look in the least bit medieaval and why do you need the dots?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Yhaalhouse: You missed whether it is in modes and within 1.5 cents of in tune at all times.
Seriously (well sort of) I wish the OP would answer those questions everyone is asking. At this point I haven't the vaguest idea how to answer once you step past the contrast between a local pub session and Celtic Women....
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Well I would say Commercial trad would be the trad bands that take a modern approach to the tradtional music, incorporating differant genres and tradtions into there music...
By modern I mean the latter half of the last centuary, so the more "authentic" sound today would be more widley accesible in pub sessions wher it used to be solo perfrormances for dances
while the commericial sound would come from groups such as the Chieftains where you have Paddy Maloney arranging tunes in a mix of song , airs and differants dances all linked , Beoga who take a jazzy approach to their music and Stockton's Wing with Rock fusion. I think it is groups like these that you mean by commericial but I think the word "commercial" implies they are playing this way solely to bring in cash from cd sales which I don't believe they do. Perhaps you should use the word contempory instead of commercial?
However Musicians who stick closley to tradition rarley appeal to audiences outside of the tradtion or who have a genuine intrest in it, for example who has probally sold more cd's ; Joe Burke or Sharron Shannon ?, both fine players, Joe by what your saying is a more "authentic' trad sound while Sharron would have a more "commercial" sound" that appeals to the wider audience while I would prefer Joe's music
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
1) Me and my mates play at a couple of sessions a month, for fun. ( ok, at one the landlady gives us a free drink, but some people are naturally good-mannered, we were going to the pub anyway.)
2) I'm looking forward to the possibility of playing a couple of barn dances in the next couple of months. Money will change hands, yes. I imagine I will both enjoy them, AND endeavour to provide the best possible show on each occasion.
I suppose the difference is that at (1), if a tune dissolves into chaos and confusion, no punter is demanding his money back, no agent will be on the phone Monday morning demanding why the punter is on their neck over this. Also (1) is acoustic, (2) is amplified.
But at both we will be playing traditional music.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Well Premierflute, that's why I wanted more clarity. Does commercial mean syncopated, harmonized new wave Hibernotrad, or does it simply mean making bucks from the good stuff?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
it is a change in the purpose of the music.it is not primarly music for dance, the musician is promoted rather than the tradition and it is marketed as irish traditional music.perhaps it would deserve to be defined as a new genre.by the way this was also the case when chelidh dance took over from sean nos.this was already a new commercial genre.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Of course traditional musicians are capitalists, because most times they play out in public, they accept compensation for doing it. But they also prove that they are lousy capitalists, because the compensation usually consists of beer and maybe a sandwich here or there....
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
The fact is that had the music never been commercialized most of us here might never have heard it or be interested in it now, but that has nothing to do with authenticity. The title of this thread could be "Apples and Oranges" and it would be just as relevant.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Good Point Reverend -- I ment where talking about the Prue Drop -- Of ,, ITM.
But if you want to be really honest -- Even we { Musician's }
Should take a ( Semi - Commercial, Back Seat ) -- When it come's to Dancer's .. Of ITM,,,,
For that's why This music was Inverted -- Reel's / Jig's etc,,
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Commercial comes from the word "Commerce," as in a financial transaction. So a player that gets paid for playing is a commercial artist. What that has to do with the music itself is beyond me, but I would fervently hope that all music would be commercial.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Thats the funniest question I ever heard. You could write a book explaining this to someone who hasnt grown up with ITM, but to those who have they would know within about 7 seconds of hearing it. I cany explain how you just 'know'. This is not a useful answer. Examples of genuine ITM (and this is all subjective too) would be:
Noel Hill + Tony Linnane, Kitty Hayes ,Joe Ryan - 'An buachaill dreoite' uh...Dennis Murphy and Johnny Doherty from Donegal.
Lamont and Gillespie 'Music from London' despite the name.
Commercial would be: Riverdance, Sharon Shannon, Eilen Ivers, Lunasa, Solas etc etc, its self explanatory this vein.
Semi-Commercial: Kevin Crawford 'in good company'. Liz Carroll, Mairtin O'Connor, Micheal O'Rahalleigh (concertina)
Martin Hayes (but not deliberately).
Hope this helps explain at least from my angle. (Co.Clare writer)
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Martin Hayes - not deliberately semi-commercial. Could you explain what you mean by that? Also Lunasa - commercial but Kevin Crawford, their flute player, semi-commercial.
They all record CD'a and do gigs. Do you assume Lunasa don't do what they because they enjoy it but just to make money, just because it's not pure drop, or what?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Big_tab... I don't think "commercial" is synonymous with "progressive."
Anyone who gets paid for their product, be it live concerts, sessions, weddings, recordings, etc., is "commercial." Your examples of "genuine ITM" features artists who have a large portfolio of recordings for sale and in some cases promote themselves as teachers and tour the globe doing concerts and giving workshops and lessons professionally. Your delineation between "commercial" and "traditional" seems to be divided more along the line of your personal taste in music. I think some artists are more commercial than others perhaps, and productions like Riverdance can hardly be called "traditional," but I think the lines between "traditional" and "commercial" are too blurry to distinguish clearly, whereas "traditional" and "progressive" might be more reasonable and realistic.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Blurry, yes I'd agree with that. All these bands split into their component parts have players that are obviously very good players who have gone through a serious traditional music journey (with the risk of sounding hippyish) Trad bands usually come from a desire to play with others and maybe do their own take on the music. Those that appeal to others become popular.
I wouldn't agree that the word "progressive". I don't think many that play other than the plainest arrangements of the music try to be or think they are progressive. Playing with the boundaries of the music isn't progress but I don't think it's particularly damaging either.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
All I meant was that it would be more reasonable to delineate between "traditional" and "progressive" music rather than "commercial" and "traditional." For example, a Lunasa recording might be more progressive than the one by Noel Hill and Tony Linnane, but since both are commercial products you can't separate them based on that.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I'd say commercial ITM (if such can exist) is that horrific sort of neon Kelly Green that I see in Portland every. Damm. St Pat's. I'd be a happy man if I never see that shade again ... alas.
BTW, commercial diddley, IMO, is diddley you can buy for 9.99 at Wallyworld or Target that sounds flat as 2 week old Dr Pepper.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
In lieu of clarification from brians, I proffer my interpretation for “commercial” music as music that tries to appeal to the broadest possible demographic usually in order to be a financially viable activity. Or amateur music that’s been primarily influenced by that kind of music.
But the traditional music that I love can be challenging to listen to, it’s more subtle and often demands more attention than the average modern music consumer is used to investing in their music.
Most of today’s pop music is lyrics-driven. Stylistic things like harmony, or a foundation rhythm driven by bass, strummed guitar and drums are expected by the public. I generally don’t care for those elements with trad tunes. But I don’t blame the music. I get annoyed by the green-beer fans who don’t know or don’t care about the difference.
But the funny thing is, with a tune like “I’ll tell me ma” context is everything. I think the pub band is cheesy, but if it were my grandpa singing bits of that song because he learned it as a kid, I’d think it was charming.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
fidkid, your last sentence illustrates exactly why the distinction between concepts like traditional vs. commercial are impossible to determine in a generalized sense unless you're just having a dialogue with yourself. The word "commercial" ends up meaning "what I don't like."
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
For me, it's not trad unless you can hear cattle lowing in the background. The people playing it have to be speaking Irish and wearing rural clothing. Anything else is just commercial.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Come on, Dow, link us back to that famous letter about the pipes teacher who said you had to remember walking the cattle over the dew-soaked grass in your bare feet before breakfast through the fog,or you had no idea of the emotion you had to portray through your playing.....
..we eventually decided it was a wind-up, as here was this supposedly unaware fossil posting on the Forum, as I recall.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
lol.........
"Not only that. The music is part of the country itself. Its mini-roundabouts and litter-strewn streets. The barking of English mongrels and groaning of slappers round the back of Tesco’s car park have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the drunks weaving through the broken bottles and pavement pizzas of Manchester'. Because they are born with this and are driven in ecologically unfriendly SUVs to school each day through it they miss the point and play as badly as I do."
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Thank you Brians for coming back and letting us know that commercial meant what you don't like, like PB said.
So to answer your question, everyone discerns between Irish traditional Music and Irish Traditional music which they don't like by using their opinions.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I was thinking about the relatively few people I've met who've conformed most closely to the type of the 'real' traditional player - oldish guys who'd had a lifetime's familiarity with it in a rural and / or working-class life.
I can't actually quote anything, but I have a hunch that their attitude to the acquisition of substantial riches through playing music was intensely relaxed, and they rather admired those who got away with this. Whether they actually liked their music or not was not an issue here.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So.....to actually answer the question----One discerns between commercial Irish traditional music and real authentic Irish traditional music by listening to the music and making a completely subjective choice based on nothing more than one's opinion or whim.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
If someone is trying real hard to be a commercial artist but they suck and can't make a dime at it are they then considered to be in the 'non commercial' catagory?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
There is a segment of commerce utilized for making money on bad investments. In your case shanty the musician is still spending money, probably even more so to keep the music going, so while the artist is on the loosing end of commerce, someone else is being paid.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
If we're going to discuss commercialism and economics... let's not beat around the bush--let's get to the meat of the issue: Capitalism is well into its corrupt phase.
discuss
heh
(note to Jeremy) No, I'm not hijacking a thread... I'm merely supercharging the issue.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Such nonsense talked. The two types of music are differnt types of music. The only simalarity is the order and pitch of the notes. The rhythm is totally different . If you change the ryhythm the basic music is changed.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
In true trad music the music is phrased and the phrase is run. How do you run a phrase? Say you have a phrase that has one and a half bars and they are all quavers, The quavers at the start of the phrase are held longer and progessivly shortened thus giving the phrase shape. You can thus shape the phrase to give lift and you can define all localised styles by the shape of the phrase. In commercial music it is played bar by bar and all notes are of equal time value in the bar the only way to get lift is to speed the music not not at all suiable for dancing
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
In my younger days I used to play this commercial music and it makes me chringe when I listen to the first tracks I put down on Vynal in the late sixtys. Then I thought I knew every thing there was to know about trad music and well dare anybody say it was not true trad. I now realise that I didnt know enough about trad music to be embarrassed. To run a phrase takes years of experience to play commercial trad you can do this in a few years. When I was younger I went through the sean maguire phase, the frankie gavin phase music that relis on techniqiue for the sake of technique, you cant have enough technique but you must use technique to enhance your music
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
At twenty fours years old my music changed when I was invited to Martin Rochfords house near killaloo where he took my fiddle and showed me what trad music should really sound like. This is where the real true music. If music does not affect you at a soul level its not worth listening too and shure not worth playing. I have been privliged during my life to have listened and played along wiyh some of the greatest players. I am not here to score points but here to help and pass on what I can
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Sorry for the spelling mistakes but this site does not give you much time to post and Im sure some smart arse will comment. I have only given a brief simplistic outline there is a lot more. One thing I have found in trad music is that when you scrach the surface there is a lot more underneath and the most important thing keep an open mind. There is no right way or wrong way to play good trad music but there are easier ways
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Little _chup I actually taught fiddle along with Sean Maguire in the mid seventys I hated him and he hated me a diffrent type of music. His music was egotistic to the extreme. I can remember listening Sean when he was playing on stage when I was nine years old he came off stage and I told him that it was absolutly brilliant he turned round to me and said "wasnt it just and walked on past" I notice little _chup you dont tell us what you play maybe you prefer to be an nonentity well thats your privlege. If it wasnt for people like you there would be no commercial trad groups. If you like listening to these fair enough keep listening. Maybe in a number of years when you get older you will think differently I sure changed my opinion. Peace be with you
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
brians... you seem to be talking about trad music all right, but your use of the term 'commercial' is puzzling. Are you sure this term is in use in trad circles in the context you're using it? It really seems like you're using it to mean 'not correct' or 'poorly played' rather than relating to any commercialization of the music.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
PB the first records produced in Belfast by outlet were by Sean Maguire and Joe Burke. The music was played bar by bar rather the way a classical player would play straight of the music. At this time there music was certainly not the way true trad players played as they were paid for this was called commercial trad. Records like paddy in the smoke and the russel family were true trad and produced in the same period and very little payment passed hands All my generation that played would have called it the same its, the generation gap. Sorry for the confusion
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
PB Many many players copied Sean Maguire at the expense of true trad because it was on record and somtimes on radio and the tone was good many players tried to emulate Sean at the expense of the real music. Others gave up! Scotland had the same thing when Scott skinner and WC honeyman came on the scene the clasically trained musicians took over. None of these played like Neil Gow the music was redefined. Its not that long ago that a muscian was defined that if you could read music you were a musician if you could not you were not. Times change
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Do you have any evidence to point to that confirms this terminology the way you're using it? I've never seen nor heard 'commercial trad' as a term applied to a playing style the way you are using here it until now.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I lived through these times this is my evidence. See you have been playing trad since 1988 at this stage I had been playing thirty years. I think you have some cheek doubting my word
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Again look at big_tabs submission he certainally knows what it is and has given examples. I am sorry for being so abrupt in my previous posts but it the way you asked for evidence you did not believe me, rather like calling someone a liar?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
little_chup you like others on this board are great mind readers phrases like "unlike youI am delighted that musicians get paid and just like maguire and gavin dont appeal to you as much etc" Where did I say this. Of course musicians should be paid and should be paid a lot more than they are getting and cut out these individuals that sit on their arses and take there cut. These people that take their cut determine whats flavor of the month and who gets paid. Maguire and gavin play a different type of music than rochford
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I have said this before, that how the traditional music of Ireland developed into something not quite like what it was years ago, is the same thing that happens to every genre of music in the age of mass communication/commercialism. You can apply the same standard to blues, jazz, rock, punk rock etc. The core of the music is very different from what most people perceive it to be on a wider commercial level. The 'blues' of Jimmy page is no way even close to the blues of Robert Johnson. The same thing for Irish folk music. Picking certain groups or people over others, though, at some level, comes down to personal preference.
I do agree that the new form is almost a different genre in every example.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
shanty thanks for the comment you are of course correct he who pays the piper calls the tune. Very often the people who promote the music steer the ultimate direction the music will go and not the musicians. The direction of course is the direction that will make the most commercial gain for themselves and ultimatly Ireland as a whole. It does not matter whether they kill the goose suppose thats the way of life and one has to grin and bear it.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So is a Chomaltas (or whatever way its spelt) member's opinion more valid than someone who has been listening to ITM for only a couple of years (And knows what they like and dont like). I mean who guards the guards when it comes to who has the final say about what is more god-damn traditional?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
The CCE tell it what ever way they want I dont think you or I have any say in this. Just look at some of the competitions and the results it says it all
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Yes brians, that's why in the last few years in America, anyway, there's been such an interest in 'roots'; music here. One has to just keep fighting the good fight, seeking out the pure drop and making folks aware of it. My 15 years interest in Irish music has been an ongoing learning process and your thoughts and perspective on it are appreciated.
Of course it doesn't mean that other forms, or commercial forms, of the music are of no value. It simply means that they have morphed into something else. Again, true to most genres of music. Life does that.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I am having difficulty reconciling brians' bio
"County Down fiddle player playing fifty years. Played traditional music all my life even before it became popular. Family tradition of fiddle playing goes back generations on both sides of my family."
with his/her only previous thread
"slowdown and pitch change program for use in learning tunes August 28th 2008"
Would an elderly traditional musician be interested in such things?
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
oldstrings forgot to mention I am a chartered electrical engineer and system analyst and have several degrees in my youngerday I could not make a career out of trad music as there was no demand. The slow down program was to look at the phrase shapes of the older musciacians especially the shape of the rolls and triplets. Conclusion from my anylasis if you make the rolls and triplet the same shape as the phrase they go in delightfully and really make the music lift. hope this answers your query
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
But why not just address what he's saying here? Why try to 'get' him like every time ionass/jigwill evans//wtf pops up and is mercilessly hounded out of the village like a wicked baby snatching hunchback? So what if brians is a 14 year old techy geek boy from Ontario. Still has a point of view and seems to be able to back it up with some thought.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Well, the OP is back and I thank him for his efforts.
I have to admit, though, to being quite confused about his descriptions of real traditional music. The only example he gives is slightly accelerating the quavers in a phrase to give it lift. But, that is not too clear to me. I don't see how that sort of what the classical folks might call tempo rubato is in and of itself sufficient to define either a local style or a tradition.
I'm also a bit bothered by what I see as the way his argument is cast: Apparently one can either agree with him or one doesn't understand at all and is to be rejected with some disgust. Probably that is not what is meant, but that is what I see in the posts.
If this whole discussion devolves to that often quoted definition "If you have to ask you'll never know." then there's no future in continuing this discussion because lots of folks with differing opinions think they know. If, however, ways can be found to verbalize more clearly the differences brians is talking about then those of us that might be hovering on the fringes can find a bit of enlightenment.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I think this is a case where it is helpful to be very specific and give examples such as brians has. There must be other identifying characteristics of his understanding of "pure drop."
To say that something is "more commercial" just means it is more popular and sells more--CD's , tickets etc. and generates more money. Does it necessarily mean that the music is "less authentic." My sense is that more often than not, it does. I'm thinking particularly about some of the music played of Clare FM--the atmospheric effects added to female singers really puts me off. Fast forward through the crap.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
cbody your correct the classical term is rubato and this is one of the most difficult things for a classical musician to do. This is because in his training he is used to playing bar by bar. In genuine traditional music the music is phrased and the phrase is shaped using rubato. Some of the better musicians not only change the shape of the phrase but also change the phrasing of the tune. Listen Paddy Canny or Tommy Potts. The only way you can learn this is by listening orally and singing the tune in your minds ear while you play. This is the reason why lilting was so popular at one time you get the pitch, phrasing the phrase shape and ornamentation at the same time. Ask me anything if I can help I will. See the craps started again
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I'm not dismissing what brians thinks of the music and his opinions of players; I'm just questioning the terminology. If brians prefers Paddy Cronin to Joe Burke he has every right, but to call Paddy 'traditional' and Joe 'commercial' is where I lose him.
Now, I never claimed to be an authority on Irish trad and I consider myself to be a life-long student, but brians wants me to accept his terminology based on the fact of his experience and he says I'm 'cheeky' for even doubting it and he even accuses me of indirectly calling him a liar. I have done no such thing; I simply was wondering about his terminology that I have never come across before, and I was hoping it might be in the public record somewhere. I'm not trying to 'get' brians, as shanty suggests, or any such rubbish; I'm just trying to learn something here, and part of my learning process involves substantiation. So far all I have to go on is that brians calls a particular style of playing 'commercial trad,' and that's fine, but I'm wondering is there anyone else on record ever using that term in that way in this context.
As for brians' credentials, I happen to be personal friends with Joe Burke and he has told me stories about him and his mates being sent to play their music in the back room of pubs behind closed doors so it won't "bother the other customers," so according to brians, who tells us in his profile he's been playing, "even before it became popular," Joe has the same authority. I wonder would Joe agree that his playing style is 'commercial trad' and not traditional.
I don't have access to Paddy Cronin, but I am a personal friend of his son, who lives here in San Francisco, and I do intend to ask him if he ever recalls the term 'commercial trad' being used in the way brians insists in reference to people like Joe Burke.
There has been plenty of discussion about the commercial life of traditional music ~ traditional tourism, those sort of matters. Every tradition, including classical, has changed with the introduction of recording, IMHO. More & more recording technology gives people greater ability to dissect music. Musical autopsies have been carried out on forums (like this) for a couple of decades now.
Back to the commercial impact on traditional music. It is mentioned by Fintan Vallely in "The Companion to Irish Traditional Music" & he gives references to others (Hammy Hamilton). By chance I just happened to find something about this from Grey Larsen.
brians, it does seem like you are bouncing between a very generalised OP & very specific examples. Fair play if it difficult to follow where you want to take this.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
The original post was a rhetorical question posed as a real question. "How does one discern between ....?" Then he sits back for while and comes on and gives us all the answer and says what a bunch of idiots we all are. Not very friendly is it. Not very cvil.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Cheers Random. Mind you I would never try to inject humor into a serious subject, like whether a session is a performance. Too deadly serious a topic to have any fun with.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I'm with Michael on this one. brians thread seems disingenuous; he seemed to be setting a trap to prove something to us eejits rather than sincerely asking a question.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I think he just wanted to make the point that there are a bunch of people playing a type of music he doesn't consider to be Irish trad. I guess he wanted to see if people agreed with him and what defines it. Funny 130 posts and people are still unclear as to the point of the thread. Fascinating.
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I haven't heard a whole lot of Sean Maguire's playing, but most of what I've heard of the dance tunes I have really liked. Occasionally the inate showman in him seems to take over to the detriment of the music though and I really (really) hate his terribly oversentimental treatment of slow airs though, his classical training comes through in all its negative aspects there IMHO).
But on the whole I am very partial to most of what I have heard of his playing. Don't think too much of his opinions mind though, nor of waht seems to be hos self assessment as some saviour or advancer of traditional music (at least that's how it the interview comes across to me). The fella that told him off for playing in flat keys as a visitor to a house party seems to have got it right to my mind.
Love Sean's playing of the Galway Rambler into the London Lasses which I have kicking around somewhere.
Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
How does one discern between commercial Irish traditional music and real authentic Irish traditional music or is it now all commercial
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Commerce is everywhere. Get used to it.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ...
And now for a short commercial break:
diddley diddley diddley dudley dudley...
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Of course we have the wise guys who have nothing to offer this board or traditional music
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Without the wisearse comments this board would be in a sorry state indeed.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I don't understand the question. In asking to "discern", are you asking to distinguish or discriminate? Is it a rhetorical question? You are saying quite clearly that if the music has any form of commerce attached to it then it can't be "real" and/or "authentic". This is surely nonsense.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
We also have the po-faced who have even less to offer this board, the music or the world at large.
Before answering the question you will have to define 'authentic', let alone 'traditional'. (a path more than well trod!)
Also what you actually mean by 'Commercial irish Music'.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
To my way of thinking if the music is played for the sole purpose of making money it's commercial. If it's played for the sole purpose of one's enjoyment it's not.
That said I believe there to be many that cross between both realms.
By the way I don't see how the responses are "wisearse", painfully true in Llig's case and fairly to the point in yhallhouse's.
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ejsant
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Commerce doesn't have to be about money. What about Johnny Docherty playing a few tunes for his supper?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ...
Webster's definition of 'commerce'...
Main Entry: 1com·merce
Pronunciation: \ˈkä-(ˌ)mərs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin commercium, from com- + merc-, merx merchandise
Date: 1537
1 : social intercourse : interchange of ideas, opinions, or sentiments
2 : the exchange or buying and selling of commodities on a large scale involving transportation from place to place
3 : sexual intercourse
INTERESTING! Especially 3.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Interesting. So going by number 1, all music is commercial. Except, with relation to number 3, as Woody Allen says, playing on your own.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
You must be having some interesting "tune sessions," yhaalhouse (is that what they are calling it these days?).
Seriously, there has always been an element of "commerce" if you will, to playing this music. Do you think Johnny Doran travelled around to all those fairs and stuff playing for free? Do you think Patsy Touhy, Michael Coleman, and Paddy Killoran played on the stage for free?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
But to be fare to Brains, he was probably only referring to Number 2. Which only leaves him to define at what point he wants to call it a large scale. For example, how many CDs do you have to sell before it becomes "large scale"? 1,000? 100,000? Would that make Moving Hearts "real authentic Irish traditional" and The Chieftains "Commercial Irish Traditional music"?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Well, that was his question wasn't it? How can you tell the difference?
How do you define all those terms in the first place?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
All I know is if it sounds more like easy listening, smooth jazz, or rock than peasant dance music, I shun it like the plague.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Wow that's an interesting definition for commerce, it explains a lot about what's going on in the world. Not only does sex sell, it is commerce. But a lot of using sex to sell things involves the idea that you can't have something you want, so in a way it is luring you into something that will not make you any money, or score any illicit 'commerce' HA
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by fedorastain
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
If or when (forgive my naiveté) Johnny Docherty played for his supper then all he did was skip the step of passing any money he might have been paid right back. That said, I do agree I placed a rather narrow definition on the question at hand however I still maintain that the difference is in the motive behind the playing especially in examples such as playing for one's meal.
If one expects to receive something of value to them (sans solely their own or others enjoyment of the music) in exchange for their playing then to my way of thinking such playing is commercial. I fail to see how the "scale" would be the determining factor.
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ejsant
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
"...commercial Irish traditional music and real authentic Irish traditional music..."
Does this mean that if it is real and authentic (dictionaries out again please) it can't be commercial? If so, it follows that commercial music has to be changed in some way in order to sell, which I assume is what you meant in the OP.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by gam
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Ed, the problem there though is that no one ever does anything with only one motive.
It's all very well playing tunes and expecting nothing in return. I do it all the time. But this narrow view precludes every musician who ever got paid in any way from being described as being non-commercial. I think that on balance, the scale of the pay does matter. (though where you draw the line is hopeless, of course)
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So when I play tunes at a session it's the former and when the band plays the same stuff at a gig, it's the latter?
Brians, is this where you are looking to draw the line?
Or is it the material itself? For example, because the band plays tight arrangements of sets made of the same tunes we play in sessions, yes with harmonies ("Forsooth! Burn the heathen!") and other gimmicks, then the material becomes the latter?
Should we go down a list of famous artists and bands, and declare them one or the other?
If you're just looking for opinions, not a refined and defined debate, then mine is if you're playing the good stuff, it's the good stuff. Fair play if you can make scratch at it. Everybody's gotta eat.
I see this from your initial post too. What could possibly be the difference between the music we love and making a few bucks at it? One word: commercial.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So to make that last long winded nonsensical post intelligible:
Is it the material, or how the music is played, i.e. for money?
In other words, what are you on about exactly?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Brians, I read that you’ve been playing traditional music all your life ‘even before it became popular’. So what is your opinion? And when, in your opinion, did it become ‘popular’. Was this when it started to become ‘commercial’?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
What is wrong with being paid for something you truly love? I bet there's a lot of folks here that are very well-versed in the tradition that wouldn't mind someone paying all the bills and living expenses for playing music so that they can play it even more!
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Sadly, there is no time stamp on our posts here. Will Brians come back to help us define his question, in order to further the debate? Has he taken his questions and gone home after Llig and yhaalhouse teased him a wee bit? Will anyone care?
Well, I cared enough to check back to see. [shrug]
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I've tried twice now to post a response and my sign in timed out both times and my post was lost. I give up!
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ejsant
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Of course there's nothing wrong with being paid for something you truly love. The question is, does the payment colour it?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Or do you change it to increase sales on the say-so of a record company.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by gam
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
If you truly love a person & make payments for being with him or her does that effect the relationship? Not that this has anything to do with paying musicians.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Sometimes it's just a matter of luck. The musicians do what they do, and maybe they'll be in the right place at the right time and get a little appreciation for what they do. Sometimes, even given the "breaks," the musicians will settle back into the comfort of obscurity; other times, they have the drive to keep "going for it." That can be a very difficult lifestyle choice to maintain. I think the main difference is often in the ears or mind of the beholder. Sometimes I'll hear a really good fiddling track on the radio and am surprised to see that it's Celtic Woman.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by primrose lass
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
'...does it colour it?'
Yup, and it colors it too. Usually green. Well, that's domestic. Your paper may vary.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
It can be good to play tunes with a bit of freedom. Warts & all is what you get if you're under no obligation to polish up the act. Not everyone's cup of tea, though it's something I appreciate. It can be great to have a professional musician playing in session, especially if he or she is playing as a non professional.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Are we veering towards another thread on synesthesia?
If 'Authentic Trad' is green what colour is 'Commercial Trad' and what colour is 'Tourist Trad' (see other thread)?
How long does it take to learn a new instrument by only thinking of colours and not sounds? Does that look in the least bit medieaval and why do you need the dots?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Yhaalhouse: You missed whether it is in modes and within 1.5 cents of in tune at all times.
Seriously (well sort of) I wish the OP would answer those questions everyone is asking. At this point I haven't the vaguest idea how to answer once you step past the contrast between a local pub session and Celtic Women....
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by cboody
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Well I would say Commercial trad would be the trad bands that take a modern approach to the tradtional music, incorporating differant genres and tradtions into there music...
By modern I mean the latter half of the last centuary, so the more "authentic" sound today would be more widley accesible in pub sessions wher it used to be solo perfrormances for dances
while the commericial sound would come from groups such as the Chieftains where you have Paddy Maloney arranging tunes in a mix of song , airs and differants dances all linked , Beoga who take a jazzy approach to their music and Stockton's Wing with Rock fusion. I think it is groups like these that you mean by commericial but I think the word "commercial" implies they are playing this way solely to bring in cash from cd sales which I don't believe they do. Perhaps you should use the word contempory instead of commercial?
However Musicians who stick closley to tradition rarley appeal to audiences outside of the tradtion or who have a genuine intrest in it, for example who has probally sold more cd's ; Joe Burke or Sharron Shannon ?, both fine players, Joe by what your saying is a more "authentic' trad sound while Sharron would have a more "commercial" sound" that appeals to the wider audience while I would prefer Joe's music
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by premier
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
1) Me and my mates play at a couple of sessions a month, for fun. ( ok, at one the landlady gives us a free drink, but some people are naturally good-mannered, we were going to the pub anyway.)
2) I'm looking forward to the possibility of playing a couple of barn dances in the next couple of months. Money will change hands, yes. I imagine I will both enjoy them, AND endeavour to provide the best possible show on each occasion.
I suppose the difference is that at (1), if a tune dissolves into chaos and confusion, no punter is demanding his money back, no agent will be on the phone Monday morning demanding why the punter is on their neck over this. Also (1) is acoustic, (2) is amplified.
But at both we will be playing traditional music.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Well Premierflute, that's why I wanted more clarity. Does commercial mean syncopated, harmonized new wave Hibernotrad, or does it simply mean making bucks from the good stuff?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
SWFL lets ask Brians, , what do you mean by commerical ?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by premier
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Chevy and Kia ads.
Maybe adverts for McDonald's.
What about a spot for RyanAir?
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Girls in Ball gowns,
Hunks singing Harmony to a 28 piece orchestra playing turaluralura (I suppose I will stop there)
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
it is a change in the purpose of the music.it is not primarly music for dance, the musician is promoted rather than the tradition and it is marketed as irish traditional music.perhaps it would deserve to be defined as a new genre.by the way this was also the case when chelidh dance took over from sean nos.this was already a new commercial genre.
# Posted on May 13th 2010 by infiddle
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
To me this is the Total Difference =
Irish traditional Music
Session Charlie White haired fiddler - middle ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YIrzeY9iwo&feature=related
Commercial Irish Traditional music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5JyVFfBsIg
jim,,
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Of course traditional musicians are capitalists, because most times they play out in public, they accept compensation for doing it. But they also prove that they are lousy capitalists, because the compensation usually consists of beer and maybe a sandwich here or there....
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
AlBrown
That's Another Very True Answer --
jim,
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
The fact is that had the music never been commercialized most of us here might never have heard it or be interested in it now, but that has nothing to do with authenticity. The title of this thread could be "Apples and Oranges" and it would be just as relevant.
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Oh, so Jim, you're saying it's really the difference between sessioning and performing, when you really get down to it?
Ooops... shhh... PB is here...
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Between having sessions and doing concerts?
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Yes! OK, I'll BUY that! Ha!
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Good Point Reverend -- I ment where talking about the Prue Drop -- Of ,, ITM.
But if you want to be really honest -- Even we { Musician's }
Should take a ( Semi - Commercial, Back Seat ) -- When it come's to Dancer's .. Of ITM,,,,
For that's why This music was Inverted -- Reel's / Jig's etc,,
jim,,
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Ya hear that, dancers? Ditch those CDs and MP3s and call your local trad band!
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Yep!
-- Keep Traditional Dancing Live !!!
lol.. jim,
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
My 1st interest in learning Irish tunes came from listening to field recordings. Go figure.
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Commercial comes from the word "Commerce," as in a financial transaction. So a player that gets paid for playing is a commercial artist. What that has to do with the music itself is beyond me, but I would fervently hope that all music would be commercial.
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by Ailin
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Thats the funniest question I ever heard. You could write a book explaining this to someone who hasnt grown up with ITM, but to those who have they would know within about 7 seconds of hearing it. I cany explain how you just 'know'. This is not a useful answer. Examples of genuine ITM (and this is all subjective too) would be:
Noel Hill + Tony Linnane, Kitty Hayes ,Joe Ryan - 'An buachaill dreoite' uh...Dennis Murphy and Johnny Doherty from Donegal.
Lamont and Gillespie 'Music from London' despite the name.
Commercial would be: Riverdance, Sharon Shannon, Eilen Ivers, Lunasa, Solas etc etc, its self explanatory this vein.
Semi-Commercial: Kevin Crawford 'in good company'. Liz Carroll, Mairtin O'Connor, Micheal O'Rahalleigh (concertina)
Martin Hayes (but not deliberately).
Hope this helps explain at least from my angle. (Co.Clare writer)
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Martin Hayes - not deliberately semi-commercial. Could you explain what you mean by that? Also Lunasa - commercial but Kevin Crawford, their flute player, semi-commercial.
They all record CD'a and do gigs. Do you assume Lunasa don't do what they because they enjoy it but just to make money, just because it's not pure drop, or what?
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
It annoys me when people don't read threads before they post.
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Big_tab... I don't think "commercial" is synonymous with "progressive."
Anyone who gets paid for their product, be it live concerts, sessions, weddings, recordings, etc., is "commercial." Your examples of "genuine ITM" features artists who have a large portfolio of recordings for sale and in some cases promote themselves as teachers and tour the globe doing concerts and giving workshops and lessons professionally. Your delineation between "commercial" and "traditional" seems to be divided more along the line of your personal taste in music. I think some artists are more commercial than others perhaps, and productions like Riverdance can hardly be called "traditional," but I think the lines between "traditional" and "commercial" are too blurry to distinguish clearly, whereas "traditional" and "progressive" might be more reasonable and realistic.
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Blurry, yes I'd agree with that. All these bands split into their component parts have players that are obviously very good players who have gone through a serious traditional music journey (with the risk of sounding hippyish) Trad bands usually come from a desire to play with others and maybe do their own take on the music. Those that appeal to others become popular.
I wouldn't agree that the word "progressive". I don't think many that play other than the plainest arrangements of the music try to be or think they are progressive. Playing with the boundaries of the music isn't progress but I don't think it's particularly damaging either.
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
"many that play other than the plainest arrangements of the music" - that didn't come out right.....never mind
# Posted on May 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
All I meant was that it would be more reasonable to delineate between "traditional" and "progressive" music rather than "commercial" and "traditional." For example, a Lunasa recording might be more progressive than the one by Noel Hill and Tony Linnane, but since both are commercial products you can't separate them based on that.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
That would have been a bit more reasonable.
You know what else would have been reasonable?
The OP coming back here to engage in a discussion he started, or other posters reading the thread before they post.
...but, you know...feh... [shrugs]
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I'd say commercial ITM (if such can exist) is that horrific sort of neon Kelly Green that I see in Portland every. Damm. St Pat's. I'd be a happy man if I never see that shade again ... alas.
BTW, commercial diddley, IMO, is diddley you can buy for 9.99 at Wallyworld or Target that sounds flat as 2 week old Dr Pepper.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Pádraig
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
In lieu of clarification from brians, I proffer my interpretation for “commercial” music as music that tries to appeal to the broadest possible demographic usually in order to be a financially viable activity. Or amateur music that’s been primarily influenced by that kind of music.
But the traditional music that I love can be challenging to listen to, it’s more subtle and often demands more attention than the average modern music consumer is used to investing in their music.
Most of today’s pop music is lyrics-driven. Stylistic things like harmony, or a foundation rhythm driven by bass, strummed guitar and drums are expected by the public. I generally don’t care for those elements with trad tunes. But I don’t blame the music. I get annoyed by the green-beer fans who don’t know or don’t care about the difference.
But the funny thing is, with a tune like “I’ll tell me ma” context is everything. I think the pub band is cheesy, but if it were my grandpa singing bits of that song because he learned it as a kid, I’d think it was charming.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by fidkid
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
fidkid, your last sentence illustrates exactly why the distinction between concepts like traditional vs. commercial are impossible to determine in a generalized sense unless you're just having a dialogue with yourself. The word "commercial" ends up meaning "what I don't like."
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I mean your last paragraph... more than just a sentence.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
For me, it's not trad unless you can hear cattle lowing in the background. The people playing it have to be speaking Irish and wearing rural clothing. Anything else is just commercial.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
big_tab the only one in sixty replies that knows the difference. Suppose its poetic justice plastic music for a plastic society
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Come on, Dow, link us back to that famous letter about the pipes teacher who said you had to remember walking the cattle over the dew-soaked grass in your bare feet before breakfast through the fog,or you had no idea of the emotion you had to portray through your playing.....
..we eventually decided it was a wind-up, as here was this supposedly unaware fossil posting on the Forum, as I recall.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
That's a good way to make yourself unpopular of the forum Brians - a patronizing blanket insult to everyone
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by bogman
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
.on the forum..
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by bogman
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Here's the premier post defining traditional music, Guernsey Pete.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8643
Here's a response to it.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8643
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by ∅
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Correction. Here's the response.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8661
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by ∅
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Classic
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
lol.........
"Not only that. The music is part of the country itself. Its mini-roundabouts and litter-strewn streets. The barking of English mongrels and groaning of slappers round the back of Tesco’s car park have shaped and formed it. As I say to my pupils when they cannot get the lilt right of a jig 'Picture in your mind's eye now children, the drunks weaving through the broken bottles and pavement pizzas of Manchester'. Because they are born with this and are driven in ecologically unfriendly SUVs to school each day through it they miss the point and play as badly as I do."
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by bogman
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Thank you Brians for coming back and letting us know that commercial meant what you don't like, like PB said.
So to answer your question, everyone discerns between Irish traditional Music and Irish Traditional music which they don't like by using their opinions.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Just a thought, maybe commercial simply means mass marketed in this context?
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by greg sheils
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I was thinking about the relatively few people I've met who've conformed most closely to the type of the 'real' traditional player - oldish guys who'd had a lifetime's familiarity with it in a rural and / or working-class life.
I can't actually quote anything, but I have a hunch that their attitude to the acquisition of substantial riches through playing music was intensely relaxed, and they rather admired those who got away with this. Whether they actually liked their music or not was not an issue here.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So.....to actually answer the question----One discerns between commercial Irish traditional music and real authentic Irish traditional music by listening to the music and making a completely subjective choice based on nothing more than one's opinion or whim.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by shanty
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
If someone is trying real hard to be a commercial artist but they suck and can't make a dime at it are they then considered to be in the 'non commercial' catagory?
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by shanty
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
There is a segment of commerce utilized for making money on bad investments. In your case shanty the musician is still spending money, probably even more so to keep the music going, so while the artist is on the loosing end of commerce, someone else is being paid.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
In your example, I should have said.
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I didn't take it personally
# Posted on May 15th 2010 by shanty
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So since I hardly ever get paid, I must be pure drop? I think we have turned that analogy on its head!
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
If we're going to discuss commercialism and economics... let's not beat around the bush--let's get to the meat of the issue: Capitalism is well into its corrupt phase.
discuss
heh
(note to Jeremy) No, I'm not hijacking a thread... I'm merely supercharging the issue.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
All power to the proletariat!
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
You know, I like superchargering things. Particularly engines.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by Pádraig
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Such nonsense talked. The two types of music are differnt types of music. The only simalarity is the order and pitch of the notes. The rhythm is totally different . If you change the ryhythm the basic music is changed.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Lol... I'm really trying to make sense of brians post.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
In true trad music the music is phrased and the phrase is run. How do you run a phrase? Say you have a phrase that has one and a half bars and they are all quavers, The quavers at the start of the phrase are held longer and progessivly shortened thus giving the phrase shape. You can thus shape the phrase to give lift and you can define all localised styles by the shape of the phrase. In commercial music it is played bar by bar and all notes are of equal time value in the bar the only way to get lift is to speed the music not not at all suiable for dancing
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
In my younger days I used to play this commercial music and it makes me chringe when I listen to the first tracks I put down on Vynal in the late sixtys. Then I thought I knew every thing there was to know about trad music and well dare anybody say it was not true trad. I now realise that I didnt know enough about trad music to be embarrassed. To run a phrase takes years of experience to play commercial trad you can do this in a few years. When I was younger I went through the sean maguire phase, the frankie gavin phase music that relis on techniqiue for the sake of technique, you cant have enough technique but you must use technique to enhance your music
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
At twenty fours years old my music changed when I was invited to Martin Rochfords house near killaloo where he took my fiddle and showed me what trad music should really sound like. This is where the real true music. If music does not affect you at a soul level its not worth listening too and shure not worth playing. I have been privliged during my life to have listened and played along wiyh some of the greatest players. I am not here to score points but here to help and pass on what I can
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Sorry for the spelling mistakes but this site does not give you much time to post and Im sure some smart arse will comment. I have only given a brief simplistic outline there is a lot more. One thing I have found in trad music is that when you scrach the surface there is a lot more underneath and the most important thing keep an open mind. There is no right way or wrong way to play good trad music but there are easier ways
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Little _chup I actually taught fiddle along with Sean Maguire in the mid seventys I hated him and he hated me a diffrent type of music. His music was egotistic to the extreme. I can remember listening Sean when he was playing on stage when I was nine years old he came off stage and I told him that it was absolutly brilliant he turned round to me and said "wasnt it just and walked on past" I notice little _chup you dont tell us what you play maybe you prefer to be an nonentity well thats your privlege. If it wasnt for people like you there would be no commercial trad groups. If you like listening to these fair enough keep listening. Maybe in a number of years when you get older you will think differently I sure changed my opinion. Peace be with you
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
brians... you seem to be talking about trad music all right, but your use of the term 'commercial' is puzzling. Are you sure this term is in use in trad circles in the context you're using it? It really seems like you're using it to mean 'not correct' or 'poorly played' rather than relating to any commercialization of the music.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
PB the first records produced in Belfast by outlet were by Sean Maguire and Joe Burke. The music was played bar by bar rather the way a classical player would play straight of the music. At this time there music was certainly not the way true trad players played as they were paid for this was called commercial trad. Records like paddy in the smoke and the russel family were true trad and produced in the same period and very little payment passed hands All my generation that played would have called it the same its, the generation gap. Sorry for the confusion
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
PB Many many players copied Sean Maguire at the expense of true trad because it was on record and somtimes on radio and the tone was good many players tried to emulate Sean at the expense of the real music. Others gave up! Scotland had the same thing when Scott skinner and WC honeyman came on the scene the clasically trained musicians took over. None of these played like Neil Gow the music was redefined. Its not that long ago that a muscian was defined that if you could read music you were a musician if you could not you were not. Times change
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Do you have any evidence to point to that confirms this terminology the way you're using it? I've never seen nor heard 'commercial trad' as a term applied to a playing style the way you are using here it until now.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I lived through these times this is my evidence. See you have been playing trad since 1988 at this stage I had been playing thirty years. I think you have some cheek doubting my word
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Think you should talk to Paddy Cronnin or Danny Meehan or possibly any musician of my Generation they will confirm this.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Again look at big_tabs submission he certainally knows what it is and has given examples. I am sorry for being so abrupt in my previous posts but it the way you asked for evidence you did not believe me, rather like calling someone a liar?
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
little_chup you like others on this board are great mind readers phrases like "unlike youI am delighted that musicians get paid and just like maguire and gavin dont appeal to you as much etc" Where did I say this. Of course musicians should be paid and should be paid a lot more than they are getting and cut out these individuals that sit on their arses and take there cut. These people that take their cut determine whats flavor of the month and who gets paid. Maguire and gavin play a different type of music than rochford
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I have said this before, that how the traditional music of Ireland developed into something not quite like what it was years ago, is the same thing that happens to every genre of music in the age of mass communication/commercialism. You can apply the same standard to blues, jazz, rock, punk rock etc. The core of the music is very different from what most people perceive it to be on a wider commercial level. The 'blues' of Jimmy page is no way even close to the blues of Robert Johnson. The same thing for Irish folk music. Picking certain groups or people over others, though, at some level, comes down to personal preference.
I do agree that the new form is almost a different genre in every example.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by shanty
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
shanty thanks for the comment you are of course correct he who pays the piper calls the tune. Very often the people who promote the music steer the ultimate direction the music will go and not the musicians. The direction of course is the direction that will make the most commercial gain for themselves and ultimatly Ireland as a whole. It does not matter whether they kill the goose suppose thats the way of life and one has to grin and bear it.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So is a Chomaltas (or whatever way its spelt) member's opinion more valid than someone who has been listening to ITM for only a couple of years (And knows what they like and dont like). I mean who guards the guards when it comes to who has the final say about what is more god-damn traditional?
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Dont have and never had anything to do with chomaltas you would have to ask a chomaltas member.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
The CCE tell it what ever way they want I dont think you or I have any say in this. Just look at some of the competitions and the results it says it all
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Yes brians, that's why in the last few years in America, anyway, there's been such an interest in 'roots'; music here. One has to just keep fighting the good fight, seeking out the pure drop and making folks aware of it. My 15 years interest in Irish music has been an ongoing learning process and your thoughts and perspective on it are appreciated.
Of course it doesn't mean that other forms, or commercial forms, of the music are of no value. It simply means that they have morphed into something else. Again, true to most genres of music. Life does that.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by shanty
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
***Cough Cough *** - I am choking on the cigar smoke on this forum.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by big_tab
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I am having difficulty reconciling brians' bio
"County Down fiddle player playing fifty years. Played traditional music all my life even before it became popular. Family tradition of fiddle playing goes back generations on both sides of my family."
with his/her only previous thread
"slowdown and pitch change program for use in learning tunes August 28th 2008"
Would an elderly traditional musician be interested in such things?
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
oldstrings forgot to mention I am a chartered electrical engineer and system analyst and have several degrees in my youngerday I could not make a career out of trad music as there was no demand. The slow down program was to look at the phrase shapes of the older musciacians especially the shape of the rolls and triplets. Conclusion from my anylasis if you make the rolls and triplet the same shape as the phrase they go in delightfully and really make the music lift. hope this answers your query
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
But why not just address what he's saying here? Why try to 'get' him like every time ionass/jigwill evans//wtf pops up and is mercilessly hounded out of the village like a wicked baby snatching hunchback? So what if brians is a 14 year old techy geek boy from Ontario. Still has a point of view and seems to be able to back it up with some thought.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by shanty
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Well, the OP is back and I thank him for his efforts.
I have to admit, though, to being quite confused about his descriptions of real traditional music. The only example he gives is slightly accelerating the quavers in a phrase to give it lift. But, that is not too clear to me. I don't see how that sort of what the classical folks might call tempo rubato is in and of itself sufficient to define either a local style or a tradition.
I'm also a bit bothered by what I see as the way his argument is cast: Apparently one can either agree with him or one doesn't understand at all and is to be rejected with some disgust. Probably that is not what is meant, but that is what I see in the posts.
If this whole discussion devolves to that often quoted definition "If you have to ask you'll never know." then there's no future in continuing this discussion because lots of folks with differing opinions think they know. If, however, ways can be found to verbalize more clearly the differences brians is talking about then those of us that might be hovering on the fringes can find a bit of enlightenment.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by cboody
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
There is no point in participating in a discussion with someone who falls in love every time he walks up to a mirror.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by bogman
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
"How does one discern between commercial Irish traditional music and real authentic Irish traditional music or is it now all commercial?"
"in my youngerday I could not make a career out of trad music as there was no demand."
That made me laugh.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I think this is a case where it is helpful to be very specific and give examples such as brians has. There must be other identifying characteristics of his understanding of "pure drop."
To say that something is "more commercial" just means it is more popular and sells more--CD's , tickets etc. and generates more money. Does it necessarily mean that the music is "less authentic." My sense is that more often than not, it does. I'm thinking particularly about some of the music played of Clare FM--the atmospheric effects added to female singers really puts me off. Fast forward through the crap.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by leoj
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
cbody your correct the classical term is rubato and this is one of the most difficult things for a classical musician to do. This is because in his training he is used to playing bar by bar. In genuine traditional music the music is phrased and the phrase is shaped using rubato. Some of the better musicians not only change the shape of the phrase but also change the phrasing of the tune. Listen Paddy Canny or Tommy Potts. The only way you can learn this is by listening orally and singing the tune in your minds ear while you play. This is the reason why lilting was so popular at one time you get the pitch, phrasing the phrase shape and ornamentation at the same time. Ask me anything if I can help I will. See the craps started again
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Can I ask you why you seem so wound up?
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I'm not dismissing what brians thinks of the music and his opinions of players; I'm just questioning the terminology. If brians prefers Paddy Cronin to Joe Burke he has every right, but to call Paddy 'traditional' and Joe 'commercial' is where I lose him.
Now, I never claimed to be an authority on Irish trad and I consider myself to be a life-long student, but brians wants me to accept his terminology based on the fact of his experience and he says I'm 'cheeky' for even doubting it and he even accuses me of indirectly calling him a liar. I have done no such thing; I simply was wondering about his terminology that I have never come across before, and I was hoping it might be in the public record somewhere. I'm not trying to 'get' brians, as shanty suggests, or any such rubbish; I'm just trying to learn something here, and part of my learning process involves substantiation. So far all I have to go on is that brians calls a particular style of playing 'commercial trad,' and that's fine, but I'm wondering is there anyone else on record ever using that term in that way in this context.
As for brians' credentials, I happen to be personal friends with Joe Burke and he has told me stories about him and his mates being sent to play their music in the back room of pubs behind closed doors so it won't "bother the other customers," so according to brians, who tells us in his profile he's been playing, "even before it became popular," Joe has the same authority. I wonder would Joe agree that his playing style is 'commercial trad' and not traditional.
I don't have access to Paddy Cronin, but I am a personal friend of his son, who lives here in San Francisco, and I do intend to ask him if he ever recalls the term 'commercial trad' being used in the way brians insists in reference to people like Joe Burke.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
llig Commerce is everywhere. Get used to it.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by brians
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Llig, you seem perpetually wound up. That's part of your charm!
You guys are like peas in a pod.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by leoj
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
ha ha
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by ...
Traditional Music and it's Commerciali(s)ation
I thought that was funny too, joel.
There has been plenty of discussion about the commercial life of traditional music ~ traditional tourism, those sort of matters. Every tradition, including classical, has changed with the introduction of recording, IMHO. More & more recording technology gives people greater ability to dissect music. Musical autopsies have been carried out on forums (like this) for a couple of decades now.
Back to the commercial impact on traditional music. It is mentioned by Fintan Vallely in "The Companion to Irish Traditional Music" & he gives references to others (Hammy Hamilton). By chance I just happened to find something about this from Grey Larsen.
brians, it does seem like you are bouncing between a very generalised OP & very specific examples. Fair play if it difficult to follow where you want to take this.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
These rambling discussions always have me googling, so, FWIW;
Sean McGuire:
"Master of The Irish Violin"
by Ken Perlman
http://www.irishfiddle.com/mcguireinterview.html
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
The original post was a rhetorical question posed as a real question. "How does one discern between ....?" Then he sits back for while and comes on and gives us all the answer and says what a bunch of idiots we all are. Not very friendly is it. Not very cvil.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by ...
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Cheers Random. Mind you I would never try to inject humor into a serious subject, like whether a session is a performance. Too deadly serious a topic to have any fun with.
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by leoj
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
careful leoj! I just made that suggestion on another thread and got pelted with boiled peanuts. (Yum!)
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by cboody
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
Quick Jeremy, please delete my reference above to session and performance. I hope it's not too late. Oh my god, what have I done....
# Posted on May 16th 2010 by leoj
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
get a life brains
# Posted on May 17th 2010 by tank
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I'm with Michael on this one. brians thread seems disingenuous; he seemed to be setting a trap to prove something to us eejits rather than sincerely asking a question.
# Posted on May 17th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I think he just wanted to make the point that there are a bunch of people playing a type of music he doesn't consider to be Irish trad. I guess he wanted to see if people agreed with him and what defines it. Funny 130 posts and people are still unclear as to the point of the thread. Fascinating.
# Posted on May 17th 2010 by shanty
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
131
# Posted on May 17th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
132
# Posted on May 17th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
For the love of pete!
# Posted on May 17th 2010 by Pádraig
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
I haven't heard a whole lot of Sean Maguire's playing, but most of what I've heard of the dance tunes I have really liked. Occasionally the inate showman in him seems to take over to the detriment of the music though and I really (really) hate his terribly oversentimental treatment of slow airs though, his classical training comes through in all its negative aspects there IMHO).
But on the whole I am very partial to most of what I have heard of his playing. Don't think too much of his opinions mind though, nor of waht seems to be hos self assessment as some saviour or advancer of traditional music (at least that's how it the interview comes across to me). The fella that told him off for playing in flat keys as a visitor to a house party seems to have got it right to my mind.
Love Sean's playing of the Galway Rambler into the London Lasses which I have kicking around somewhere.
- chris
# Posted on May 19th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Irish traditional Music and Commercial Irish Traditional music
So if the initial discussion and point was allegedly about phrasing what the heck does the word commercial have to do with it?
Discussion fail.
# Posted on May 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler