Hello, I was wondering if anybody would share the secret of how they make their sets...I can play an OK assortment of jigs and reels, but have learned them all kind of singly and randomly. But leading at the session means I'll have to play more than one tune in a row, right? (ack!). My musical thought is that the tunes should go well together, but not be so alike that it turns into one long song? And I know that there are certain tunes that are "always played together" but how does everybody know what these are? Are the good players creating sets on-the-fly based on the 'mood' of the session? Or do they have mental lists of certain sets they've made up?
And does anybody have anything that goes with Walls of Liscarroll!
Play sets from favorite recordings at first... then try to figure out what makes them go together so nice. It's a variety of things that you just eventually get familiar with and you can start stringing your own tunes together in ways that sound good to your ear. I have great fun finding tunes that compliment each other in some way.
I've noticed that going to new keys is nice, resolving melodic tension with the tune that follows, finding rhyming first or last phrases etc. There are lots of things people do or don't consider; some people just use trial and error which is very effective for me as well. I will surprise myself sometimes discovering tunes that go together that I might not have put together for any reason before.
Ah, a bunch of good questions, with a lot of good answers, some of them mutually contradictory. Don't let that get you down, it's part of the deal. And it's part of the fun. You'll be answering these questions for a long time - first for yourself, then for others, eventually.
For my part, the first thing is that the tunes flow into each other. That's pretty vague, but think of a tune you know pretty well. Think of the way it starts. Now think about some other tunes you know (let's keep them all in the same rhyhtm, of course). Specifically, think of the way the B part ends, either the first or the second ending. Do any of those endings tie nicely into that first bit of the first tune you thought of? If so, they might fit together. Take the Maid Behind the Bar - ends with that
fBBA BcdB|AFEF D4:|
To my ear, that's a perfect setup for a tune that starts on a string E - and there's tons of those. Sporting Paddy is one I like there, because you can do the same trick again to go into an Em reel after - I like Toss the Feathers there, because it's such a great tune to end a set on.
You can use similar logic to go from an Em tune into one starting on a G - if it lands on an E2, that's easily played as
...EF:||:G ...
I play Rolling In the Barrel/Teetotaller, for example, which does this transition.
You can also use a tune that ends in the low octave to lead into one that starts high, doing just about the same thing. It'll usually work.
Those are just a couple of examples, to give you an idea of what to look for. Once you get started, you'll probably find a lot more for yourself.
"the tunes should go well together, but not be so alike that it turns into one long song"
Your instinct is good - the tunes should feel like they belong together, but you don't want them to sound the same. You especially want to avoid tunes with similar B parts, since they often get people going back to the one you just played. Miss Monaghan/Green Mountain/Tom Billy's (goes by several names - #901 here) would be a tedious set and likely to cause confusion.
"Are the good players creating sets on-the-fly based on the 'mood' of the session? Or do they have mental lists of certain sets they've made up? "
Yes and yes, depending on the player and the occasion.
I'm not one of "the good players" by most reasonable definitions, but I have stock sets that I like to play and I also come up with sets on the fly to keep things interesting.
As usual, I've gone on way too long. Hope it's some use.
One way I do it is with playlists on my pc. As I put together tunes according to their novelty (newness), source, type, or however I came by them, whether they are midis, ABC, recordings, etc, I move the tunes round in the lists until I get a satisfactory result. Sometimes you get sets you wouldn't have dreamed of making otherwise.
"Are the good players creating sets on-the-fly based on the 'mood' of the session? Or do they have mental lists of certain sets they've made up?"
Yes to both I'd say.
I'm by no means a set arranger as I've only really been focused on melody for a few years. Having said that over my years of playing I have had opinions regarding sets taken onboard by several of the people I've played with (not a real qualification I know). So there is one avenue, ask others for their opinions if you can.
Listening to others, especially albums can give good ideas regarding flow from one to the next IMO. Cool changes are the thing that marks a good set out for me. Dated now but still a really good example of some really sweet changes to aspire to is the Paddy Glackin album "in full spate";
which contains one of my all time favorite changes (from an album with many), track 5 and the change from Pretty Peg to Miss Patterson's Slipper, still gives me goose bumps whenever I hear it. If only I could arrange both my playing and my tunes like that.
I personally like putting together tunes which are associated with a particular musician or region. For example, I occasionally play these tunes together: Knotted Cord / Otter's Holt / Rip the Calico. The first two tunes are associated with (and sometimes attributed to) West Clare fiddler Junior Crehan, and the last one is a famous West Clare tune.
I also "steal" sets from other musicians I have played with. Green Gates into Swallowtail is the one I picked up from an OZ piper who left Tokyo a couple of years ago, and these two tunes are a sort of "memento." In one of the regular sessions I attend, Walls of Liscarrol is always played together with Rooms of Dooagh. I believe the combination comes from Mary MacNamara's first recording. You can watch Pat O'Connor and Claire Keville play the same tunes together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBNBAu6pbUs
Some good suggestions above. Search the discussions database on this topic, many good discussions have occurred on this topic, and lots of variables. Some people like to change keys, some don't, some go minor to major, some go the reverse, some base it on the last few notes of the first tune, and how they lead into the first few notes of the next, some even choose sets based on names. (For example, is the old Tripping Up the Stairs into Haste to the Wedding set common just because the melodies fit together, or is the little joke of the titles one of the reasons you here it?)
Now see, we always play follow Tripping Up the Stairs with Off She Goes. Also, Out in the Ocean followed by The Eavesdropper. Why? For no other reason than the A parts are incredibly similar. We're kinda sick that way.
It's kind of gimmicky, but I like to make sets where the beginning of the following tune is a lot like the ending of the leading tune... Bird in the Bush/Reel of Rio is one of my favorite such combos.
Also, sometimes you just "luck into" a nice combination. The Silver Spear/The Ash Plant/The Raveled Hank of Yarn just fell out of the ether one day, and I've loved that set ever since -- but don't ask me to explain why they go so well together, I couldn't begin to tell you.
I'm very much a beginner, so take anything I say with a grain of salt, please!
All of the above. I'm useless at putting sets together on the fly but I love it when other people do it, it's very exciting. I just kind of find tunes that I love to play together when I'm practicing. One recent one was Padraig O'Keefes,The Donegal Lasses and The Atholl Highlanders. Just the other day I learnt The Twelve Pins but I'm having trouble finding tunes to play with it. I think Paddy Fahy's sounds good before and maybe Tommy Peoples after but I'm not absolutely sure until I try it out at the session.
There is a flute player and a piper who both come to our local session now and again and watching them is great. You can see the flute player will stop playing a few bars before the end of a tune and you can see he is thinking about what to play next then he'll shout out a name or key for the piper and guitarists and away we go into anothe great tune. It's phenomenal!
Thanks for all the great input, everybody! Much to think about!
& ha ha, these probably don't go together musically but makes me wonder about the Irish, sometimes:
Old Hag You Have Killed Me \ I Buried My Wife and Danced on Her Grave
also thanks for the link for Walls of Liscaroll, it's been a tough tune to "pair up"!
creating sets?
creating sets?
Hello, I was wondering if anybody would share the secret of how they make their sets...I can play an OK assortment of jigs and reels, but have learned them all kind of singly and randomly. But leading at the session means I'll have to play more than one tune in a row, right? (ack!). My musical thought is that the tunes should go well together, but not be so alike that it turns into one long song? And I know that there are certain tunes that are "always played together" but how does everybody know what these are? Are the good players creating sets on-the-fly based on the 'mood' of the session? Or do they have mental lists of certain sets they've made up?
And does anybody have anything that goes with Walls of Liscarroll!
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by greentree
Re: creating sets?
Play sets from favorite recordings at first... then try to figure out what makes them go together so nice. It's a variety of things that you just eventually get familiar with and you can start stringing your own tunes together in ways that sound good to your ear. I have great fun finding tunes that compliment each other in some way.
I've noticed that going to new keys is nice, resolving melodic tension with the tune that follows, finding rhyming first or last phrases etc. There are lots of things people do or don't consider; some people just use trial and error which is very effective for me as well. I will surprise myself sometimes discovering tunes that go together that I might not have put together for any reason before.
Have fun!
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: creating sets?
Ah, a bunch of good questions, with a lot of good answers, some of them mutually contradictory. Don't let that get you down, it's part of the deal. And it's part of the fun. You'll be answering these questions for a long time - first for yourself, then for others, eventually.
For my part, the first thing is that the tunes flow into each other. That's pretty vague, but think of a tune you know pretty well. Think of the way it starts. Now think about some other tunes you know (let's keep them all in the same rhyhtm, of course). Specifically, think of the way the B part ends, either the first or the second ending. Do any of those endings tie nicely into that first bit of the first tune you thought of? If so, they might fit together. Take the Maid Behind the Bar - ends with that
fBBA BcdB|AFEF D4:|
To my ear, that's a perfect setup for a tune that starts on a string E - and there's tons of those. Sporting Paddy is one I like there, because you can do the same trick again to go into an Em reel after - I like Toss the Feathers there, because it's such a great tune to end a set on.
You can use similar logic to go from an Em tune into one starting on a G - if it lands on an E2, that's easily played as
...EF:||:G ...
I play Rolling In the Barrel/Teetotaller, for example, which does this transition.
You can also use a tune that ends in the low octave to lead into one that starts high, doing just about the same thing. It'll usually work.
Those are just a couple of examples, to give you an idea of what to look for. Once you get started, you'll probably find a lot more for yourself.
"the tunes should go well together, but not be so alike that it turns into one long song"
Your instinct is good - the tunes should feel like they belong together, but you don't want them to sound the same. You especially want to avoid tunes with similar B parts, since they often get people going back to the one you just played. Miss Monaghan/Green Mountain/Tom Billy's (goes by several names - #901 here) would be a tedious set and likely to cause confusion.
"Are the good players creating sets on-the-fly based on the 'mood' of the session? Or do they have mental lists of certain sets they've made up? "
Yes and yes, depending on the player and the occasion.
I'm not one of "the good players" by most reasonable definitions, but I have stock sets that I like to play and I also come up with sets on the fly to keep things interesting.
As usual, I've gone on way too long. Hope it's some use.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: creating sets?
One way I do it is with playlists on my pc. As I put together tunes according to their novelty (newness), source, type, or however I came by them, whether they are midis, ABC, recordings, etc, I move the tunes round in the lists until I get a satisfactory result. Sometimes you get sets you wouldn't have dreamed of making otherwise.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by gam
Re: creating sets?
"Are the good players creating sets on-the-fly based on the 'mood' of the session? Or do they have mental lists of certain sets they've made up?"
Yes to both I'd say.
I'm by no means a set arranger as I've only really been focused on melody for a few years. Having said that over my years of playing I have had opinions regarding sets taken onboard by several of the people I've played with (not a real qualification I know). So there is one avenue, ask others for their opinions if you can.
Listening to others, especially albums can give good ideas regarding flow from one to the next IMO. Cool changes are the thing that marks a good set out for me. Dated now but still a really good example of some really sweet changes to aspire to is the Paddy Glackin album "in full spate";
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/36
which contains one of my all time favorite changes (from an album with many), track 5 and the change from Pretty Peg to Miss Patterson's Slipper, still gives me goose bumps whenever I hear it. If only I could arrange both my playing and my tunes like that.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: creating sets?
I personally like putting together tunes which are associated with a particular musician or region. For example, I occasionally play these tunes together: Knotted Cord / Otter's Holt / Rip the Calico. The first two tunes are associated with (and sometimes attributed to) West Clare fiddler Junior Crehan, and the last one is a famous West Clare tune.
I also "steal" sets from other musicians I have played with. Green Gates into Swallowtail is the one I picked up from an OZ piper who left Tokyo a couple of years ago, and these two tunes are a sort of "memento." In one of the regular sessions I attend, Walls of Liscarrol is always played together with Rooms of Dooagh. I believe the combination comes from Mary MacNamara's first recording. You can watch Pat O'Connor and Claire Keville play the same tunes together: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBNBAu6pbUs
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by slainte
Re: creating sets?
Some good suggestions above. Search the discussions database on this topic, many good discussions have occurred on this topic, and lots of variables. Some people like to change keys, some don't, some go minor to major, some go the reverse, some base it on the last few notes of the first tune, and how they lead into the first few notes of the next, some even choose sets based on names. (For example, is the old Tripping Up the Stairs into Haste to the Wedding set common just because the melodies fit together, or is the little joke of the titles one of the reasons you here it?)
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: creating sets?
Now see, we always play follow Tripping Up the Stairs with Off She Goes. Also, Out in the Ocean followed by The Eavesdropper. Why? For no other reason than the A parts are incredibly similar. We're kinda sick that way.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: creating sets?
Play follow? Forsooth! Heave to, stand firm my god man! Ho ho! Yon, what ho! What, ho?
This is what happens when I get up too early.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: creating sets?
It's kind of gimmicky, but I like to make sets where the beginning of the following tune is a lot like the ending of the leading tune... Bird in the Bush/Reel of Rio is one of my favorite such combos.
Also, sometimes you just "luck into" a nice combination. The Silver Spear/The Ash Plant/The Raveled Hank of Yarn just fell out of the ether one day, and I've loved that set ever since -- but don't ask me to explain why they go so well together, I couldn't begin to tell you.
I'm very much a beginner, so take anything I say with a grain of salt, please!
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by browndog
Re: creating sets?
All of the above. I'm useless at putting sets together on the fly but I love it when other people do it, it's very exciting. I just kind of find tunes that I love to play together when I'm practicing. One recent one was Padraig O'Keefes,The Donegal Lasses and The Atholl Highlanders. Just the other day I learnt The Twelve Pins but I'm having trouble finding tunes to play with it. I think Paddy Fahy's sounds good before and maybe Tommy Peoples after but I'm not absolutely sure until I try it out at the session.
# Posted on May 10th 2010 by flossie
Re: creating sets?
There is a flute player and a piper who both come to our local session now and again and watching them is great. You can see the flute player will stop playing a few bars before the end of a tune and you can see he is thinking about what to play next then he'll shout out a name or key for the piper and guitarists and away we go into anothe great tune. It's phenomenal!
# Posted on May 10th 2010 by flossie
Re: creating sets?
Rolling In A Barrel and The Tap Room must be the renowned Clare pair.
# Posted on May 10th 2010 by geoffwright
Re: creating sets?
I usually careen from one tune into another without much of a plan. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it becomes a complete trainwreck.
# Posted on May 10th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: creating sets?
Thanks for all the great input, everybody! Much to think about!
& ha ha, these probably don't go together musically but makes me wonder about the Irish, sometimes:
Old Hag You Have Killed Me \ I Buried My Wife and Danced on Her Grave
also thanks for the link for Walls of Liscaroll, it's been a tough tune to "pair up"!
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by greentree