I am thinking of leaving our local sessions. We have two players who really upset everyone. One is a guitar player who 1: Plays in the wrong key a lot of the time and 2: Plays so loudly that he breaks a string nearly every night, sometimes two strings. When you combine the loudness with the wrong key it can ruin a session.
Then we have a flute player who only plays one note from each bar, a lot of the time it's the wrong note. He plays loudly, gets drunk and is always on the hunt for a fight.
The problem is that the session is within walking distance and a lot of the time the buzz can be great. If I want to go elsewhere I would have to drive. Some very well known players won't come anymore because of them. We have lost some excellent musicians and are in real danger of losing some of our best now.
These two guys are on the committee and do some great work behind the scenes. Myself and a few others want to solve this problem but we don't want to upset them because we want to be inclusive and don't want to be elitist.
Have they been told that they upset everyone? If not they should be, and if so, and they continue, just say to yourself 'there he goes again' and do your best to ignore it. Don't get annoyed -- it doesn't serve any purpose.
I think I will have to move on, albeit sadly. I like to have a couple of pints when I play, therefore I can't drive and these sessions are within walking distance. But after last night when I had to leave after an hour because he came in and sat between us and the bouzuki player (who is every bit as good as Donal Lunny), that I think I will look further afield.
There is no pleasure in having to tell someone there playing is bad. Do they play on every tune or sometimes sit & listen? Hopefully each of these players is at least capable of listening without giving into an urge to play. In any case you shouldn't be forced to leave on the account of 1 or 2 players. From what you say, IMHO, someone needs to let them know that they must work on their playing. If you, or someone else in the session, wants to help them improve their playing offer the advice away from the main group. If they are responsive to this, & seem willing to follow through, then a bit of instruction outside of session would be a step in the right direction.
If none of this is workable, take Rick Payman's suggestion.
I suggest when you can't stand it anymore, go to the bar and have a pint. The other players who are equally annoyed might join you when they see you there. Soon only the bashers will be left in the session and they can wallow in their own quagmire. This will result in two possible outcomes: 1. They will get tired of a session that is just bad flute and guitar and ask why no one else is playing, thus opening the door for a discussion on the problem. Or, 2. The rest of you at the bar decide on an alternate location for your session.
The flute player has been playing for 25 years but can't play, full stop. If you knew nothing about music and came to the session, he looks like he can play, but if you move closer and listen to him you quickly realise that he's bluffing. He never starts a tune because you can't bluff on your own. I started a slip jig set last night and had to stop and give an evil eye to him because he was really putting me off.
I know that I'm ranting, but this is like a confession box where I can let off steam anonymously and safely. If I didn't, you would be reading about me on the news: Mad Piper hacks flute player to death with hatchet.
"Mad Piper hacks flute player to death ... " In today's news story in the UK that might just possibly merit a 1 inch report at the bottom of page 38.
I'll look out for it
He would probably do the lonesome boatman on the whistle and think he was great or the ballydesmond polkas. They don't know how bad they are! The guitar player hasn't learnt a new tune in years. We played at a charity event last year and someone said it was wonderful that someone with special needs was given the opportunity to play!
"someone said it was wonderful that someone with special needs was given the opportunity to play!"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA That is awful!!
I drive an hour to go to my sessions, so maybe finding a new one wouldn't be too bad. But then again, we have some people who don't mind telling others off. I usually just ignore people like that.
Have you tried putting them in bed with the captain's daughter? Shaving their bellies with rusty razors? Plenty of good suggestions in the old songs....
Seriously, the exodus to the bar sounds like it might be worth doing. Since you've already decided you're not planning on playing there anymore, and you like to have a pint within walking distance, just turn up, with your pipes, and have a pint at the bar. If the music's good, you've got your pipes. If it's not, just enjoy your pint and see what happens.
I feel your pain, RuaidhrI. I know I've committed a few heinous session offences over the years, but I sincerely hope I have never caused the same level of exasperation as these two are causing you. I haven't met the two individuals in question, but from the picture you've painted, I'd wager that they wouldn't be all that receptive to gentle advice. So, the 'pedestrian vote' would seem to be the best solution.
"the session is within walking distance and a lot of the time the buzz can be great"
If that's still true, then it's worth persevering with. Such places are hard to find.
Go and have a drink at the bar when they get too annoying. Surely they go on holiday for a week or two now and then?
Everytime the guitar player gets too loud just use a predetermined secret hand signal to tip off a designated "Sniper" in the area to hit him with a full dart, he'll hit the floor in seconds, then just leave him in the street and pour beer all over him, he'll think he got wasted the night before. Another idea would be to have someoene video tape them playing without being noticed then mail it to them anonymously, see if that puts them to shame, but I doubt it, in their minds they are probably amazing players.
ruaidhri, if I were you I would start your own session - if the pub agree and at least on the surface make it invite only. Don't fall for the old 'elitist' crap. It's not elitist to want to go out and enjoy tunes with folk that stimulate you musically. The whole elitist thing is a big red herring, perpetrated by folk who don't spend a lot of time learning the music but feel it's their right to play with anyone, no matter what the difference in abilities. It's hippy nonsense - the musics for everyone man......feck off.
At our session everyone is welcome. But there have been a few visitors over the years who we've been polite and friendly to but if they turned up regularly we would have to put the foot down. One in particular, and English couple - he played box and she 'played' the giant triangle. Completely delusional, arrogant and completely crap. Morris dancing tunes at every opportunity - tunes that make 3 blind mice seem complicated.
My point being that you can inclusive but for regular sessions it'll only really work if everyone finds their own level.
Have a word with two or three folk you like playing with, start a new session and play none of the tunes from the old session. None at all. If it means learning piles of new tunes all the better. Wanting to play with people of approximately your own level is not elitist and even if a handful of people think it is they will fade into insignificance when your new session is roaring on and is the highlight of your week.
if you're a new player and you want to go to a session for a first time, what would be classed as bad behaviour. myself and my dad are looking for a session near carlisle in cumbria, and i heard of one that was near here but i ws too scared to suggest it because i was scared of doing somthing to upset other players. all of you commenting make sessions sound a bit like my school where only the best are welcomed in.
^-^
I actually agree with bogman here. I'm a novice, and it shows, but I am respectful of the session and I almost never start sets unless I am invited to. The whole "the music is for everyone" mentality I find parades the idea of equity and brotherhood, but often bombastically disrespects sessions with little care for how they are ruining the enjoyment for others. That's my two cents and I'm sure somebody will chastise me for it.
Open sessions should be welcoming, of course, but players, no matter what skill level, should always be respectful.
More like a school team, mandolinist, where, whatever the level, everyone has to qualify to join, even if informally. As in a game, you can go to watch, perhaps get to know one or more of the players, and decide if/when you want to ask if you can join in.
Learn a tune reasonably well. Everyone agrees that beginners have to begin somewhere and don't mind a tune being played slowly but reasonably well. Mad manners is playing a tune you don't know and loud enough to put other people off. Learn a tune at home first. Even if you're a beginner you should be welcomed at most sessions. Keep learning too. Nothing as bad as someone who plays the same tune week in week out for years and don't progress. Search google for session etiquette, some simple rules that keeps everyone happy. Playing in a session is a wee bit like driving a car, everyones entitled to learn and drive on the road, but if you start acting the maggot and driving all over the place, someone will slap your wrists.
mandolinist, don't worry. Go to sessions a couple of times before thinking of joining in, even If it's way above your standard you'll most likely find you will be welcome to play a few sets. If it looks like too much of a gulf have a look for another session, you get sessions for all standards. If you came to our session you would be made very welcome and we would try and play a few sets you could join in with.
Sessions in general are welcoming but it's a good idea to try and get a regular sessions that's not too different from your own standard. You can always go to a beginners session then go to a higher standard one once every 4 or 5 weeks to see how you're progressing. Respect usually gets respect back.
I almost never start a set because by the time I've recalled the first tune of my set to the forefront of my consciousness the session is halfway through the next set but one, and if I then dare join in, my carefully-honed recall of the first tune of my set instantly evaporates. If you see what I mean.
Starting a tune or playing a set are all things you have to learn to do in a session. I remember the first time I started a set, I thought everything went well until someone said "Well done, but all the tunes were in G" He then bought me a pint, and we've been great friends ever since.
"Actually, I like Jwalkerts elephant tranquilizer solution."
It is a good one. A but of surgery on the pipes would give you a perfectly camoflaged launcher, too, provided you were willing to sacrifice one of your drones to the cause.
Is it really worth your time to hang out with folks who disrespect everyone and everything around them?
Life's too short to spend time butting heads with mean people.
Move on. Live well.
Peace
Right lads, this has been an interesting, amusing and helpful discussion. I'm gonna do a bit of practicing now that I have calmed down. I'm gonna buy him a pint at each session now and put some rohipnol in it. Sorted.
Mandolinist, if you're concerned enough to be asking here you will be fine. Talk to the session leads and if the session is well above your level, they are still likely to invite you to play a set or two.
Ruaidhri, as others have said if a session is inclusive it will be pulled down to the level of the least-skilled players. The passive-aggressive move of everyone heading to the bar might force the issue enough to open some dialog. It sounds like the better musicians in your area have already voted with their feet.
These days I show up at pub sessions with no expectations other than to have a pint with friends and crash through enough tunes to keep my embouchure in shape and fingers limber. We are plagued by excessively noisy pub crowds as well as having some local problem musicians so it can be really hard to make good music.
My own solution has been to start holding small house sessions with a few like-minded players.
Ya sure Jimmy B.
Still got my helmet handy just in case some meanie comes a running head down. But if I see ya comin, I'l try to step outta your way so you can head butt the post I'm standin in front of.
I can't believe the thread has gone on this long with no mention of a bodhran player. you folks are slippin'.
To the original question-
I would assume there is a level of group embarassment here. Has the pub owner said anything about the poor playing? No matter what is done, SOMETHING should be done. especially if the session has worked well in the past .
They may but they may not - or choose not to. But in general that is a good idea so long as the governor is ok with it. We used to do it at the Blythe. So it was scraper- thumper- squeaker- strummer-and clatterer-free. It lasted on and off for a couple of years, till aforementioned bandwagon-jumpers got wind of it. Nowadays I just shut up and put up, because of the same - it's down the road from the house, and it still has its moments anyway. There is another session about 4 miles away which is not bad musically but it is a sheit pub, and you have to pay for drinks at a high price. Also that one is a sunday night which I don't like, whereas the blythe is Thursday which I do like.
The best thing I can do is find alternative sessions somewhere else. This group is run by a committee and they do great things like lessons and charity gigs. But they have a fundamental flaw. The members have no liathróidí. The drunken flute player had an altercation with the police one day during a session when one of our players ex-partner tried to disrupt it. The player was told by the chairman that it might be better to leave if their partner turned up again and that it was not their policy to expel anyone from their group. I have only stayed there because it was the first session I was involved in and it is close to home. And they did get me started in music.
I won't burn any bridges but I will just fade away to another session and try to bring the other good players with me. Either that or I'm gonna buy a big triangle, or play my D whistle when the guitar player sings to see how he likes it.
"I can't believe the thread has gone on this long with no mention of a bodhran player. you folks are slippin'. "
Don't get me started, those two wail the cac out of the bodhráns too. But thats another story, and they don't do it too often.
I have been around long enough to think that I would have recognized llig under an assumed name, General FvonF. Don't think that just changing a user name means you become anonymous.
In this case, the advice llig has given so many times is the best advice. Don't tap dance around the truth--if the situation is this bad, tell people firmly and directly what you think and how you feel. You don't have to be impolite, but you have to be direct. If you are at the point you are ready to leave the place behind, what do you have to lose?
>I would assume there is a level of group embarassment here<
Nothing of the sort, from my experience. I enjoy playing music with like minded souls, with whom I can share tunes with. I play in sessions for myself, for my own playing, which I enjoy. If it comes to defining the performance/non-performance bit of it, I like the fact that other non-playing pub patrons enjoy listening to my and my fellow sessionistas efforts - music is a way of communicating to people. Glad that we all get on the same groove, players and non players.
However I personally wouldn't be embarassed by some bozo who imposed his company and low musical and behavioural standards on our group of players.
yeah michael ironically on here it's a bit like the subject of this thread, where you go to a session where there's a couple of crap players, so you speak your mind but you either get barred or get a kicking.
On the other hand, Michael, we can just speak for you, whether you are present or not. Sort of a Virtual Llig, "I see that you feel that you must use sheet music. Does that make you happy?"
As uncomfortable as it may be, the adult thing to do is to speak in a non-threatening way to the offending parties. I hate all that passive-aggressive stuff. Then if they get all huffy, you can consider the threatening route. (Just kidding. Really.) (Won't be responsible for encouraging violence.)
The committee is failing you. If you can get them to discuss different abilities and how to accommodate them; try raising the topic of ability. If you are not alone in how you feel then you have power for change.
(sorry, too much politician talk here rubbing off) but maybe it’s not hopeless.
Don't let it fester, act, and if it is a community session and the community collectively shares your concern, get together with these two and open up a discussion, not a condemnation, not just another tar and feather. Obviously if they've put that much time into it, and being 'regulars', their hearts are committed. See if you can open them up to their limitations and how their deafness to others is interfering with the pleasures of others. See if it can be done without hurting someone too deeply. But if they can't at least give some ground, like shutting up for at least half the sets and just listening for a change, then maybe the daggers have to come out ~ "e tu!"
But, what I love is how you put something so well ~
"~ this is like a confession box where I can let off steam anonymously and safely." ~ ruaidhri
I only we could be more balanced on this site, in these discussions, and avoid personal attacks, as has happened lately, and out-and-out cyber-stalking, as has also happened on this site, where a couple of us get wound up so that we can't avoid going off topic to attack another member.
The call for balance isn't just for here, this situation of two clueless musicians screwing up things for others, it happens here on this site too, in these discussions. We too often stop listening and asking for clarification and start attacking, and some aliases seem to immediately draw that negative attention, and sometimes we fall short of sense and have ganged up on another, whether what they post is right or wrong or offensive, we stop listening, we stop reasoning, we stop asking for clarification, we stop discussing.
So, for these two, try not to make it a gang fight, everybody against the one. Try to ask them in a way that might help them to better understand their place and influence on things, to let them know music is a conversation and that they are no longer listening and need to pause and consider others. No one should play every tune and set in an evening of music, no one. And some, the less experienced and less able, should be even more wary of what they jump in to and how they splash about. Some of us need to listen more than we play.
On some level we're all clueless, and it doesn't hurt for a considerate other or others to help us to a better understanding of the music and the needs of others in that community.
If they are too thick to be considerate of others, then you can pull out the daggers. Sometimes, and very difficult, at least for me, but I've had to do it ~ it does come down to the 'last resort' of telling someone something along the lines of ~ "f'k off!"
If only we could be more balanced on this site ~ the issue of 'safety' ~ feeling safe to open up without the worry of 'attack', but anyone. The clue is in the category ~ 'discussion'...
Give these two clueless bozos consideration, and talking about them behind their backs or just letting things fester toward hate, that's not 'consideration'...
It's a situation that is peculiar to Irish Trad. It happens all the time. It's an inborn thing. People sitting in a session and playing along because they believe its easy, and are too thick to realise otherwise. They have this inborn idea that anybody can play didley music. Shure you should have heard my old granny play the mouth organ, she could play it with her eyes shut...........Sorry, you are not gonna win unless you move somewhere else. Why not get the 'committee' to arrange your session in non licenced premises. Serve tea or light refreshments. That should get rid of the drunk for a start and you may even get musicians joining in who just hate pubs and everything about them. I have a dream!!!!!!!
My twa farthings:
The truth will set you free. Tell them, if you really care about this and if you feel you can be objective.
Be polite, be humane.
Stick to facts, not opinions
( "You do not seem to keep tempo with the rest of us" vs. "You have no rhythm, it sucks" ).
Make certain you DO have a consensus among the other session members, if the session is the thing, not just personalities.
( You seem to indicate that you do. )
Handle them the way you would want to be handled if you did not know you were out of line.
( They may be unaware or delusional )
In the final analysis, is it worth an ulcer?
Cut your losses, one way or the other.
Arrange to have the session turn into a "gig" for a while. "Yeah, the bar owner wanted to streamline things, and do it more formally to see how that goes. So we're going with one bouzouki, no guitar, and just this lineup."
But sometimes there just comes a point where you have to shoot the wounded.
Write into the committee's by laws that the preservation of egalitarianism is the main purpose of the session, elect the fearsome, drunken flute player as the committee's chairman-for-life then start carpooling with a designated driver to a different and hopefully inclusive, but not too inclusive, session.
Agree that you all out to have fun by making music and having a few pints and natters with your mates. Agree that you will not allow anyone to threaten any aspect of this and that such persons as do threaten this will be told that they are not going to be joining in with you any more. This is nothing top do with whether they are beginners, nor is it about elitism. It's about their wrong attitude to everyone else's night out. There is no other way. Such people in my experience are incredibly thick-skinned and understand nothing except plain talk. Plain, not rude. Now go and tell 'em, while you're still sober at the start of the evening. I don't go to the pub to endure simmering resentment.
It is all about respect. I am relatively new to sessions and have found everyone, without exception, to be very friendly and inclusive. I sit quietly with my fiddle on my lap, and when a tune comes up at a speed that I can play, I play it. When I make mistakes, I tone it down until I get my bearings.
I have noticed that there is often a pecking order in a session. Some people take the lead and others fall in behind. Setting the tempo can be contentious. I choose my sessions with that in mind. I prefer sessions that are slower, relaxed and tuneful over blistering sessions where half the players are playing well beyond their ability.
At one slow session there is a woman who plays poorly. She is often half a tone off. But she enjoys it and you have to give her credit for being enthusiastic. She shows up early and enjoys playing a few tunes before the session starts. She always leaves at half time, much to everyone's relief. She knows where she fits in and she is respectful. I would never think of discouraging her.
On the other hand some of the "best" players can be obnoxious. There is a great player who receives sighs of disappointment when he walks into the room at one of the faster sessions. When he starts playing, he just takes way too much space. He plays very fast and often leaves very competent players behind in the dust. His music is great, but he is not respectful of the group.
At the opposite extreme there is an internationally known fiddle player who sometimes shows up to various sessions in the area. He generally blends in. He is acutely aware of the capabilities of the group and he unobtrusively lifts the music without necessarily standing out. He is a superb musician who parks his ego when he enters a session. He contributes enormously to everyone's appreciation of the music. When the time is right, and he chooses his time carefully, he can blow the doors off, or just as easily bring people to tears with the beauty of his music.
Thankfully, there are lots of sessions to choose from and people find their own level. Playing in a group is always a compromise of style and ability. Just remember that when you find yourself in the groove with a group of other players who are enjoying themselves, it is a wonderful thing. Enjoy it!
You're in a pub, the landlord/lady/manager decides who stays and goes, not the session leader, not the collective, not the committee.
if tension between the musicians is creating a bad atmosphere or putting people off, and the musicians aren't buying drinks anyway, they might just turf the lot of you out!
Like Steve said, I don't go to the pub to endure simmering resentment, I can get that at home for free.
A great session with good players is a magical thing when it happens, but you have to accept that it's a rare thing and you can't force it
I'm away to Leitir Ceanainn to hunt for a good session now. I'll pick up a new tune or two instead of the same old at home, Beidh an craic is nócha! Those two messers won't be there (hopefully)
Bren, I don't know how typical our situation is but the pub landlords, etc., round here don't get involved at all in who plays with us. If we accept a player he gets free beer like the rest of us. It's up to us whether he joins in or not. It's up to the landlord to allow him into the alehouse. Two separate roles there.
I am completely bewildered that any session would allow 2 people to break up the session without so much as a word to either individual. The only thing I can suss out is if the session, or pub, isn't so great to begin with. On the other hand, the concept of a committee - run session doesn't appeal to me in the least.
The sessions can be great sometimes. But if none of the key players aren't there it is just a disaster. I was just talking to a couple of players and we're going to mention it to them about their playing, otherwise we're gonna join the Judean Peoples Front, or was that the Peoples Front of Judea? Whatever, we're just gonna split.
BTW, The Donegal Fleadh was non existent. Tried ever pub and no music whatsoever. What a waste of petrol.
I love it when we gather around a table crowded with our pint glasses either empty, full, or half drunk... and we're performing the tunes we've leaned and love for our own pleasure and amusement. Often no one is there but us, but more than often there is an audience of onlookers. Sessions are great indeed...
What's needed is to have like they do in hockey, a penalty box. The referee ( that would be me, and I don't work cheap, it's dangerous) would give a yellow card to the offening player and he would have to hand over his instrument and sit in the penalty box for 1 to 5 sets depending on the severity of the offense. The penalty box would consist of a stall in the privy. Upon serving out the yellow card penalty, the offending player may rejoin the session. If a second offense occurs, the player is given a red card and is now ejected from the session through a gauntlet of booing punters.
Now in order to become a sanctioned session referee, you must first study all the session rules and regulations. You must be able to recite them by heart and recieve your credentials from me. I can provide all the training and for a small fee plus airfare and accomadations, I will come to your locality to train and certify all your session referee's.
That would be like discussing religion on the golf course (I hasten to add that I neither play golf, as I'm still sane, nor am I religious, heaven forfend). It would get me booted out of the pub without so much as a by your leave. Except for the ritual slagging to which you refer. That's pure sport.
A great session doesn't depend on the quality of the players at all. When I was learning to play, three or four of us getting together at someone's house to bang through the ten tunes we knew felt fantastic - probably sounded awful, but that wasn't the point.
I've also played with very good players, and come away feeling like the whole thing was a bit of a waste of time, even though the music sounded a lot more polished than the usual.
The consistent factor is very simple, and not at all novel. What makes a session feel great is the people involved - not just how well they play their instruments. The funny thing is, this is true even for the people listening.
Jon my point was that the magic one can have at a tune doesn't happen every time you sit down, no matter who you are. Great sessions, the ones that stick in your mind & the minds of the others present, both players & listeners, are the exception not the norm IME.
IMO you have to attend and take the rough with the smooth to be there when the good times occur. If it's all rough then I wouldn't think twice about not showing up. I live a a remote area where everyone knows everyone, and some tact is required (if you don't want to to cause a scene that can affect other aspects of your life). Absence can often convey more than words and if your absence isn't seen for what it is what good are your words going to achieve with people such as these? The OP has identified the issue and realised something has to give, there's only so much giving possible until you realise there's nothing left.
Cheers Jon. I guess I was trying to point out, in agreement with you, lol, that the standard of the players isn't a barrier to these magic moments happening.
My uncertainty regarding your post came from the quote from Bren I used which talked about "good players" and your post that mentioned in the opening "A great session doesn't depend on the quality of the players at all", words lol.
I'm also in complete agreement that it's the people that make the moment and that everything else stems from that base.
We'd better stop all this agreeing, or we'll spoil the fun.
Here's a thought, dunno what to make of it yet (I'm supposed to be writing code, not commentary). This comes from your observation that "the magic doesn't always happen".
What do you think of the idea that a "great session" gets to be great (in part at least) by being a session that helps make the magic happen for everyone.
I've been on both sides of this now: a new player, unsure of what they're doing, starts to play a tune, and is having trouble. One of the other players joins in, and just by playing with (not over, or above) the novice, brings them to a level of play they wouldn't have hit otherwiise.
This is as opposed to the "great player" who says, ah, I know that tune, and starts in, bumps up the tempo, and dropping in a lot of tricky stuff, including melodic variations that convince the novice that it's hopeless, this stuff is impossible.
The "great" player in the latter case may make a more virtuosic sound, but I'd rather play in the other pub.
Yes I agree, scenario 1 could well to be part of the mix that helps to make a magical moment, especially for the nervous novice. IME of good seshes and tunes whether they be ex or in(clusive) is that there seems to be an unusual dynamic present, like a full moon, or people all being on the same page as regards mood.
The sesh where the bad boys turn up or the phone rings, "hey we're going to X because we've heard Y is having a surprise party" tend to be the times rather than the regular humdrum events, for me it's a kind of spontaneity where everyone gets onboard and this seems to rase everyones game even if it's just for that occasion. Bren's point, of not being able to force it seems to be a feature also (hence why it caught my eye), it just has to happen and from experience, if you go out often enough it will. So a change of venue can increase the hit rate.
I'm meant to be working also, lol................. I'll just have to work through lunch.
Sure Steve I don't mean to imply that the landlord has any say in who plays in the session, except if he/she's barred them from the pub (which *has* happened for session-related behaviour in Aberdeen), but you need to be aware that you're inhabiting broadly the same space and time as anyone else in the pub.
Increasingly these days, the session crowd is there under sufferance and in a lot of places, the management doesn't need an awful lot of encouragement to pull the plug.. Just take a glance through the long list of cancelled and failed sessions in the "session" section. It's to your own benefit not to behave in a too off-putting manner to the aud ... er, non-playing punters and staff.
Dedicated "session any night" pubs like Sandy Bells are no model for comparison - there's maybe half a dozen pubs like that in the whole world
"...He generally blends in. He is acutely aware of the capabilities of the group and he unobtrusively lifts the music without necessarily standing out. He is a superb musician who parks his ego when he enters a session. He contributes enormously to everyone's appreciation of the music..."
I hope that someday, someone will say this about me. "Internationally known" be damned, those four sentences are my goal for every session I play in.
Well, aside from the prime directive of having a few sips and a buncha laughs with friends, of course.
Bren, I want to thank you for your comments & following up on Steve's question. If for nothing else you're at least addressing the original post. Not always easy given the distractions.
“I've been on both sides of this now: a new player, unsure of what they're doing, starts to play a tune, and is having trouble. One of the other players joins in, and just by playing with (not over, or above) the novice, brings them to a level of play they wouldn't have hit otherwiise.”
I had recent experience of this. I usually play just a couple early on then shut up, but one night after a few beers, I had a crack at Rambling Pitchfork and the whole group joined in. I was having a ball and it probably sounded rough but by the way they played along they let me know also that they were indulging me. Two weeks later I did the same with a different group and was left whistling in the wind, each picking his nails or looking at the ceiling, letting me know where I stood. Fair enough but one group had done it in a fun way that benefitted everyone.
You tell both of them that the owner of the pub, doesn't want anymore sessions in his pub because of the neighbours complaining about the noise and the bad playing, you then invite the two of them to another session somewhere else, make sure it's far away, you plead with them to come to the new session and you then continue with your own session, amongst yourselves you might scarifice one musician per week to go to the other session and tell them how good they are, and how that other session really needs a strong guitar player etc....
to avoid killing another session you could actually create a real new session and have everyone go to that session and gradually phase it out so it's left with flute and guitar player....
Some brolgas darted out from the tea-tree all about
And performed a set of lancers very well
The parrot green and blue gave the orchestra its cue
To strike up The Old Log Cabin in the Dell
They were dancing, as the ballad has it, to "the violin, the banjo and the bones"
Sorry, but no flutes, bodhrans or shakey eggs
I agree with what bogman said.
An approach I take is to conspire
with guitar player and other
players to do certain sets of
tunes when the other players
are on break, eating, getting pints
etc.
Just play them out of the session.
If they try to join in, fine but play
over them, play play play play
Sorry dogmageek, playing over other players is a 3 set penalty.
Hand over the fiddle and into the privy penalty box with ya!
And, leave that beer with me, no beer allowed in the penalty box!
what to do with piper that think they know it all.
to person hiding behind ruaidhri. i have never attended special needs i make good money playing guitar and singing in the pubs and clubs round the country this last 30 years and in the presant climate still not doing to bad. your around a wet weekend and you,ve tried to spoil every session going. dont know what your problem is as i have encouraged players of every level encluding yourself when you knew 2 tunes dont know where you get off slaging me but will discuss your problem with rest of session in a reasonable fashon not be hind your back.
I have not, to my knowledge, met either of you, nor heard either of you play, so I can't make any judgements on your musical merits. But the first two things that occur to me are:
1. If ruaidhri really finds your playing so offensive, then maybe it could do with a little refinement.
2. Ruadhri is insecure about his own shortcomings as a musician and it gives his self-esteem a boost to deride another musician, whom he sees as inferior.
Beyond that, I think this is a personal issue between the two of you and would be better solved through private emails, over a pint or down a dark alley (Sorry - ignore the last suggestion).
But, suffice to say, people on high horses usually fall off eventually.
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
Maybe Mr Gallagher should have a serious look (listen) at himself. I feel he knows he is the problem, sounds aggresive and unapproachable. Ruaidhri, I think you need to move on unless you have the guts to tell him he is sh*te.
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
Brendan if you are so good, then take your ball and go home. As we say in the states. Who cares! We all have people in our lives that bug the &^* out of us. Frankly as for musician folk very few are capable of really ruining my night, when I do have a crap night, it's usually easy to see some sort of stessor in my own life caused it... lack of sleep... is usually the culprit. So I go home and go to bed... come back fresh a week later, and its all good. If you and this piper really cannot share the same air ever again, then what are you whining on about it here for, take your guitar.. and go elsewhere.
just a few comments to people who took time out to read my post . dont know why i should edit it . does my post sound agressive but i take offence to be called like special needs . im not afraid to put my name to it , as i beleive my names good enough . i dont have to hide it. ive sung live on rte. bbc and radio stations so dont judge untill you hear me . taking a computer class at the moment cant wait to be able to upload . iwerson has found me guilty already at end of the day he seems to have problem not me. this piper has been learning this last 3 years , i have no problem with him either playing or in person . but beleive he shoulded be slagging me off on a web site. just learned of this post yesterday. i have no problem disscusing problem with him in a cival manner.
Brendan for heaven's sake man - stop digging! All you have acomplished with your last two posts is to make yourself an easy target for drive-by cheap shots and additional slagging. Go meet your man at the pub and get it sorted out. Then buy each other a pint and have a few tunes.
Yes, agreed.
Brendan, there is no smoke without fire. No way would I judge you, but singing on RTE, BBC etc and live gigs for 30 years means next to nothing when it comes to backing tunes at sessions. You could be very competent at backing songs but totally rubbish at backing tunes. Not saying you are but the other fellow has issues with your playing and claims others do too, so don't wash your nickers in public and do yourself a favour and have a serious look at your session playing.
When you post anything like this, the flamers/winders-up and sundry pedants will go through your posting with a fine tooth-comb and note any spelling mistake or grammatical error, so make sure there aren't any, or you have lost for a start. Like.
TIP: Don't forget to use capital letters and punctuation where required.
well no one on here must oject to been called a special needs person. Pipers the one who made his rant public on this site knowing i wasnt on computer to reply.
Technically he didn't call you a special needs person. He said that somebody else thought you were. In all honesty that is possibly worse but best be accurate.
Anyway, I don't care about all of that. I enjoy songs and listening to new artists and would love to hear a track or two if you have any online.
Not as yet, i have just started to learn how to use computers, just started class 3 weeks ago , every monday night for 2 hours . She,s going to show us how to upload soon.
Well Brendan, they can say what they like about your playing but they can't say you're not open to constructive criticism. Each post is just a little better than the last.
Impossible to say. None of us have heard you, this flute player or indeed the complaining piper. None of us have been to the session or know the dynamics or the people involved.
It is easy to take sides online but who knows really? All I can suggest is be as aware as you can of the other folk around you - something most of us struggle with from time to time - and try to find a compromise.
2/3 of a piper? That would be distracting, at the least. Is the missing third from the top, or the bottom, or did he just lose a lot of weight recently?
Should I give up going to the sessions?. No. If all these lead players are playing on top of your singing then they have issues too. As No Cause says, nobody here can judge your playing but there is only gain to be had by considering what's been said. If there are issues with wrong keys and playing too loud then there are ways to address it. Why not ask if anyone minds you recording the session. Place the recorder nearer the strong tune players, take the recording home and practise backing it. Of course you may be a fine backer of tunes but who's to know here.
Also an earlier comment said there was a bouzouki player there too. If there is more than one accompanist then it is always a good idea to take it in turns a bit. It rarely sounds good having more than one accompanist on the go at any one time unless it is very arranged.
Doing a concert on friday night bouzouki player is going to back me on Nancy spain and Is erin ni nosin kay hee. (Irish not to good) For Ireland i wont tell her name.
Brendan I have no idea what you play like but please take no notice of the intellectuals here who think it is way more important to have The Queens english than have a knowledge of traditional music. You come across like a nice man. Sing your heart out and enjoy it and take it very easy on the accompaniment and you and everyone else will enjoy the tunes more.
A very brief thank you to Jeremy. I haven't followed round 2 of this drama (telenovela?). It was brill to combine them.
My pipedream is to have the bodhran, ear-dot, how not to play this music, et. al. threads combined, in kind, to make a series of TheSession.org's all time hits (or misses).
This threads closed as i dont think the piper,s worth losing sleep over. Had a good session last night and playing at a concert tonight, enjoying my self .PLAY ON.
What to do with bad players
What to do with bad players
I am thinking of leaving our local sessions. We have two players who really upset everyone. One is a guitar player who 1: Plays in the wrong key a lot of the time and 2: Plays so loudly that he breaks a string nearly every night, sometimes two strings. When you combine the loudness with the wrong key it can ruin a session.
Then we have a flute player who only plays one note from each bar, a lot of the time it's the wrong note. He plays loudly, gets drunk and is always on the hunt for a fight.
The problem is that the session is within walking distance and a lot of the time the buzz can be great. If I want to go elsewhere I would have to drive. Some very well known players won't come anymore because of them. We have lost some excellent musicians and are in real danger of losing some of our best now.
These two guys are on the committee and do some great work behind the scenes. Myself and a few others want to solve this problem but we don't want to upset them because we want to be inclusive and don't want to be elitist.
Has anyone here any tips?
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
Have they been told that they upset everyone? If not they should be, and if so, and they continue, just say to yourself 'there he goes again' and do your best to ignore it. Don't get annoyed -- it doesn't serve any purpose.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by gam
Re: What to do with bad players
"We have lost some excellent musicians and are in real danger of losing some of our best now."
Find out where they are playing..
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Rick Payman
Re: What to do with bad players
llig, now that you've returned you may like to hit the ground running on this one with your usual excellent advice
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What to do with bad players
On which committee? Does your session have a committee?
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Joe Wass
Re: What to do with bad players
A Comhaltas committee, I'd wager.
Quite the pickle. Is there an 'Alpha' player? A leader, for lack of a better term? Are the perpetrators the leaders?
So far, Rick has the best advice. When it's just the fluter and the strummer left because everyone else has split, they may get the idea. Ha!
...but that's really a shame and shouldn't have to happen.
If people can't police themselves, well, this is where some semblance of group policing comes into play.
If there's a clearly defined leader, tell him or her to get off their behind and have a chat with these two.
If there's not, then the group needs to do it.
It doesn't have to be rude, it doesn't have to be aggressive, it can be kind and gentle, but it should happen.
It's a shame when people can't have enough common sense and decency to police themselves, but it happens.
This is all predicated on your one side of the story, of course.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What to do with bad players
I think I will have to move on, albeit sadly. I like to have a couple of pints when I play, therefore I can't drive and these sessions are within walking distance. But after last night when I had to leave after an hour because he came in and sat between us and the bouzuki player (who is every bit as good as Donal Lunny), that I think I will look further afield.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
There is no pleasure in having to tell someone there playing is bad. Do they play on every tune or sometimes sit & listen? Hopefully each of these players is at least capable of listening without giving into an urge to play. In any case you shouldn't be forced to leave on the account of 1 or 2 players. From what you say, IMHO, someone needs to let them know that they must work on their playing. If you, or someone else in the session, wants to help them improve their playing offer the advice away from the main group. If they are responsive to this, & seem willing to follow through, then a bit of instruction outside of session would be a step in the right direction.
If none of this is workable, take Rick Payman's suggestion.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
cross-posted. You have clearly decided what you are going to do.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What to do with bad players
A session with a committee., that's a new one...what does a committee do?
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: What to do with bad players
And did you vote for them?
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: What to do with bad players
I suggest when you can't stand it anymore, go to the bar and have a pint. The other players who are equally annoyed might join you when they see you there. Soon only the bashers will be left in the session and they can wallow in their own quagmire. This will result in two possible outcomes: 1. They will get tired of a session that is just bad flute and guitar and ask why no one else is playing, thus opening the door for a discussion on the problem. Or, 2. The rest of you at the bar decide on an alternate location for your session.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: What to do with bad players
The flute player has been playing for 25 years but can't play, full stop. If you knew nothing about music and came to the session, he looks like he can play, but if you move closer and listen to him you quickly realise that he's bluffing. He never starts a tune because you can't bluff on your own. I started a slip jig set last night and had to stop and give an evil eye to him because he was really putting me off.
I know that I'm ranting, but this is like a confession box where I can let off steam anonymously and safely. If I didn't, you would be reading about me on the news: Mad Piper hacks flute player to death with hatchet.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
"Mad Piper hacks flute player to death ... " In today's news story in the UK that might just possibly merit a 1 inch report at the bottom of page 38.
I'll look out for it
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What to do with bad players
Are you any good at conspiracies? Maybe get everyone to shut up for a set and then ask him to start some tunes? Then, sit back and watch the fun?
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What to do with bad players
He would probably do the lonesome boatman on the whistle and think he was great or the ballydesmond polkas. They don't know how bad they are! The guitar player hasn't learnt a new tune in years. We played at a charity event last year and someone said it was wonderful that someone with special needs was given the opportunity to play!
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
Start an invitation only session.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Eulic McGee
Re: What to do with bad players
"someone said it was wonderful that someone with special needs was given the opportunity to play!"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA That is awful!!
I drive an hour to go to my sessions, so maybe finding a new one wouldn't be too bad. But then again, we have some people who don't mind telling others off. I usually just ignore people like that.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by pipersgrip
Re: What to do with bad players
Have you tried putting them in bed with the captain's daughter? Shaving their bellies with rusty razors? Plenty of good suggestions in the old songs....
Seriously, the exodus to the bar sounds like it might be worth doing. Since you've already decided you're not planning on playing there anymore, and you like to have a pint within walking distance, just turn up, with your pipes, and have a pint at the bar. If the music's good, you've got your pipes. If it's not, just enjoy your pint and see what happens.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What to do with bad players
I feel your pain, RuaidhrI. I know I've committed a few heinous session offences over the years, but I sincerely hope I have never caused the same level of exasperation as these two are causing you. I haven't met the two individuals in question, but from the picture you've painted, I'd wager that they wouldn't be all that receptive to gentle advice. So, the 'pedestrian vote' would seem to be the best solution.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: What to do with bad players
"the session is within walking distance and a lot of the time the buzz can be great"
If that's still true, then it's worth persevering with. Such places are hard to find.
Go and have a drink at the bar when they get too annoying. Surely they go on holiday for a week or two now and then?
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Bren
Re: What to do with bad players
Oh, Jon Kiparsky just said that, more or less
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Bren
Re: What to do with bad players
Elephant Tranquilizers,
Everytime the guitar player gets too loud just use a predetermined secret hand signal to tip off a designated "Sniper" in the area to hit him with a full dart, he'll hit the floor in seconds, then just leave him in the street and pour beer all over him, he'll think he got wasted the night before. Another idea would be to have someoene video tape them playing without being noticed then mail it to them anonymously, see if that puts them to shame, but I doubt it, in their minds they are probably amazing players.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: What to do with bad players
ruaidhri, if I were you I would start your own session - if the pub agree and at least on the surface make it invite only. Don't fall for the old 'elitist' crap. It's not elitist to want to go out and enjoy tunes with folk that stimulate you musically. The whole elitist thing is a big red herring, perpetrated by folk who don't spend a lot of time learning the music but feel it's their right to play with anyone, no matter what the difference in abilities. It's hippy nonsense - the musics for everyone man......feck off.
At our session everyone is welcome. But there have been a few visitors over the years who we've been polite and friendly to but if they turned up regularly we would have to put the foot down. One in particular, and English couple - he played box and she 'played' the giant triangle. Completely delusional, arrogant and completely crap. Morris dancing tunes at every opportunity - tunes that make 3 blind mice seem complicated.
My point being that you can inclusive but for regular sessions it'll only really work if everyone finds their own level.
Have a word with two or three folk you like playing with, start a new session and play none of the tunes from the old session. None at all. If it means learning piles of new tunes all the better. Wanting to play with people of approximately your own level is not elitist and even if a handful of people think it is they will fade into insignificance when your new session is roaring on and is the highlight of your week.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by bogman
Re: What to do with bad players
Actually, I like Jwalkerts elephant tranquilizer solution.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by bogman
Re: What to do with bad players
if you're a new player and you want to go to a session for a first time, what would be classed as bad behaviour. myself and my dad are looking for a session near carlisle in cumbria, and i heard of one that was near here but i ws too scared to suggest it because i was scared of doing somthing to upset other players. all of you commenting make sessions sound a bit like my school where only the best are welcomed in.
^-^
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by mandolinist
Re: What to do with bad players
I actually agree with bogman here. I'm a novice, and it shows, but I am respectful of the session and I almost never start sets unless I am invited to. The whole "the music is for everyone" mentality I find parades the idea of equity and brotherhood, but often bombastically disrespects sessions with little care for how they are ruining the enjoyment for others. That's my two cents and I'm sure somebody will chastise me for it.
Open sessions should be welcoming, of course, but players, no matter what skill level, should always be respectful.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: What to do with bad players
More like a school team, mandolinist, where, whatever the level, everyone has to qualify to join, even if informally. As in a game, you can go to watch, perhaps get to know one or more of the players, and decide if/when you want to ask if you can join in.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: What to do with bad players
The music is for everyone, providing everyone on both sides, novice and adept, respects the music and each other.
If there's a lack of respect from any of the places it should be, then it's elephant tranquilizer time, as yer man Jwalkert so rightly put it!
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What to do with bad players
Learn a tune reasonably well. Everyone agrees that beginners have to begin somewhere and don't mind a tune being played slowly but reasonably well. Mad manners is playing a tune you don't know and loud enough to put other people off. Learn a tune at home first. Even if you're a beginner you should be welcomed at most sessions. Keep learning too. Nothing as bad as someone who plays the same tune week in week out for years and don't progress. Search google for session etiquette, some simple rules that keeps everyone happy. Playing in a session is a wee bit like driving a car, everyones entitled to learn and drive on the road, but if you start acting the maggot and driving all over the place, someone will slap your wrists.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
mandolinist, don't worry. Go to sessions a couple of times before thinking of joining in, even If it's way above your standard you'll most likely find you will be welcome to play a few sets. If it looks like too much of a gulf have a look for another session, you get sessions for all standards. If you came to our session you would be made very welcome and we would try and play a few sets you could join in with.
Sessions in general are welcoming but it's a good idea to try and get a regular sessions that's not too different from your own standard. You can always go to a beginners session then go to a higher standard one once every 4 or 5 weeks to see how you're progressing. Respect usually gets respect back.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by bogman
Re: What to do with bad players
Cross posted there but the others have put it well.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by bogman
Re: What to do with bad players
I almost never start a set because by the time I've recalled the first tune of my set to the forefront of my consciousness the session is halfway through the next set but one, and if I then dare join in, my carefully-honed recall of the first tune of my set instantly evaporates. If you see what I mean.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What to do with bad players
Starting a tune or playing a set are all things you have to learn to do in a session. I remember the first time I started a set, I thought everything went well until someone said "Well done, but all the tunes were in G" He then bought me a pint, and we've been great friends ever since.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
"Actually, I like Jwalkerts elephant tranquilizer solution."
It is a good one. A but of surgery on the pipes would give you a perfectly camoflaged launcher, too, provided you were willing to sacrifice one of your drones to the cause.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What to do with bad players
Is it really worth your time to hang out with folks who disrespect everyone and everything around them?
Life's too short to spend time butting heads with mean people.
Move on. Live well.
Peace
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: What to do with bad players
I don't know, Boatpiper. I'm mean, and you've butted heads with me plenty of times.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: What to do with bad players
Right lads, this has been an interesting, amusing and helpful discussion. I'm gonna do a bit of practicing now that I have calmed down. I'm gonna buy him a pint at each session now and put some rohipnol in it. Sorted.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
Mandolinist, if you're concerned enough to be asking here you will be fine. Talk to the session leads and if the session is well above your level, they are still likely to invite you to play a set or two.
Ruaidhri, as others have said if a session is inclusive it will be pulled down to the level of the least-skilled players. The passive-aggressive move of everyone heading to the bar might force the issue enough to open some dialog. It sounds like the better musicians in your area have already voted with their feet.
These days I show up at pub sessions with no expectations other than to have a pint with friends and crash through enough tunes to keep my embouchure in shape and fingers limber. We are plagued by excessively noisy pub crowds as well as having some local problem musicians so it can be really hard to make good music.
My own solution has been to start holding small house sessions with a few like-minded players.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ElaineT
Re: What to do with bad players
Ya sure Jimmy B.
Still got my helmet handy just in case some meanie comes a running head down. But if I see ya comin, I'l try to step outta your way so you can head butt the post I'm standin in front of.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: What to do with bad players
@ bogman: "One in particular, and English couple - he played box and she 'played' the giant triangle."
Bloody hell, bogman, I think I know them! They wouldn't be from somewhere near Bristol would they?
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What to do with bad players
I can't believe the thread has gone on this long with no mention of a bodhran player. you folks are slippin'.
To the original question-
I would assume there is a level of group embarassment here. Has the pub owner said anything about the poor playing? No matter what is done, SOMETHING should be done. especially if the session has worked well in the past .
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by mainiac
Re: What to do with bad players
Start a session at the same pub on a different night: invite everyone but those 2 . They may get the message without the confrontation.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Rob
Re: What to do with bad players
They may but they may not - or choose not to. But in general that is a good idea so long as the governor is ok with it. We used to do it at the Blythe. So it was scraper- thumper- squeaker- strummer-and clatterer-free. It lasted on and off for a couple of years, till aforementioned bandwagon-jumpers got wind of it. Nowadays I just shut up and put up, because of the same - it's down the road from the house, and it still has its moments anyway. There is another session about 4 miles away which is not bad musically but it is a sheit pub, and you have to pay for drinks at a high price. Also that one is a sunday night which I don't like, whereas the blythe is Thursday which I do like.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: What to do with bad players
The best thing I can do is find alternative sessions somewhere else. This group is run by a committee and they do great things like lessons and charity gigs. But they have a fundamental flaw. The members have no liathróidí. The drunken flute player had an altercation with the police one day during a session when one of our players ex-partner tried to disrupt it. The player was told by the chairman that it might be better to leave if their partner turned up again and that it was not their policy to expel anyone from their group. I have only stayed there because it was the first session I was involved in and it is close to home. And they did get me started in music.
I won't burn any bridges but I will just fade away to another session and try to bring the other good players with me. Either that or I'm gonna buy a big triangle, or play my D whistle when the guitar player sings to see how he likes it.
"I can't believe the thread has gone on this long with no mention of a bodhran player. you folks are slippin'. "
Don't get me started, those two wail the cac out of the bodhráns too. But thats another story, and they don't do it too often.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
I have been around long enough to think that I would have recognized llig under an assumed name, General FvonF. Don't think that just changing a user name means you become anonymous.
In this case, the advice llig has given so many times is the best advice. Don't tap dance around the truth--if the situation is this bad, tell people firmly and directly what you think and how you feel. You don't have to be impolite, but you have to be direct. If you are at the point you are ready to leave the place behind, what do you have to lose?
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: What to do with bad players
"If you are at the point you are ready to leave the place behind, what do you have to lose?"
Because if a row starts then that's it. Better not to burn bridges. Some people thinks the sun shines out of their poill!
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
>I would assume there is a level of group embarassment here<
Nothing of the sort, from my experience. I enjoy playing music with like minded souls, with whom I can share tunes with. I play in sessions for myself, for my own playing, which I enjoy. If it comes to defining the performance/non-performance bit of it, I like the fact that other non-playing pub patrons enjoy listening to my and my fellow sessionistas efforts - music is a way of communicating to people. Glad that we all get on the same groove, players and non players.
However I personally wouldn't be embarassed by some bozo who imposed his company and low musical and behavioural standards on our group of players.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: What to do with bad players
Thanks Al. Yes, tell it like it is. Much the best way.
# Posted on May 7th 2010 by ...
Re: What to do with bad players
yeah michael ironically on here it's a bit like the subject of this thread, where you go to a session where there's a couple of crap players, so you speak your mind but you either get barred or get a kicking.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: What to do with bad players
On the other hand, Michael, we can just speak for you, whether you are present or not.
Sort of a Virtual Llig, "I see that you feel that you must use sheet music. Does that make you happy?"
As uncomfortable as it may be, the adult thing to do is to speak in a non-threatening way to the offending parties. I hate all that passive-aggressive stuff. Then if they get all huffy, you can consider the threatening route. (Just kidding. Really.) (Won't be responsible for encouraging violence.)
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: What to do with bad players
The committee is failing you. If you can get them to discuss different abilities and how to accommodate them; try raising the topic of ability. If you are not alone in how you feel then you have power for change.
(sorry, too much politician talk here rubbing off) but maybe it’s not hopeless.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: What to do with bad players
Sick this lady on them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR5GuX3MpV8&feature=related
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: What to do with bad players
Get a much harder reed, then you can drown them out with your pipes
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by cornemuse
What to do?
Don't let it fester, act, and if it is a community session and the community collectively shares your concern, get together with these two and open up a discussion, not a condemnation, not just another tar and feather. Obviously if they've put that much time into it, and being 'regulars', their hearts are committed. See if you can open them up to their limitations and how their deafness to others is interfering with the pleasures of others. See if it can be done without hurting someone too deeply. But if they can't at least give some ground, like shutting up for at least half the sets and just listening for a change, then maybe the daggers have to come out ~ "e tu!"
But, what I love is how you put something so well ~
"~ this is like a confession box where I can let off steam anonymously and safely." ~ ruaidhri
I only we could be more balanced on this site, in these discussions, and avoid personal attacks, as has happened lately, and out-and-out cyber-stalking, as has also happened on this site, where a couple of us get wound up so that we can't avoid going off topic to attack another member.
The call for balance isn't just for here, this situation of two clueless musicians screwing up things for others, it happens here on this site too, in these discussions. We too often stop listening and asking for clarification and start attacking, and some aliases seem to immediately draw that negative attention, and sometimes we fall short of sense and have ganged up on another, whether what they post is right or wrong or offensive, we stop listening, we stop reasoning, we stop asking for clarification, we stop discussing.
So, for these two, try not to make it a gang fight, everybody against the one. Try to ask them in a way that might help them to better understand their place and influence on things, to let them know music is a conversation and that they are no longer listening and need to pause and consider others. No one should play every tune and set in an evening of music, no one. And some, the less experienced and less able, should be even more wary of what they jump in to and how they splash about. Some of us need to listen more than we play.
On some level we're all clueless, and it doesn't hurt for a considerate other or others to help us to a better understanding of the music and the needs of others in that community.
If they are too thick to be considerate of others, then you can pull out the daggers. Sometimes, and very difficult, at least for me, but I've had to do it ~ it does come down to the 'last resort' of telling someone something along the lines of ~ "f'k off!"
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by ceolachan
Discuss!?!
If only we could be more balanced on this site ~ the issue of 'safety' ~ feeling safe to open up without the worry of 'attack', but anyone. The clue is in the category ~ 'discussion'...
Give these two clueless bozos consideration, and talking about them behind their backs or just letting things fester toward hate, that's not 'consideration'...
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by ceolachan
Damn but I'm still fried ~
~ without the worry of 'attack', 'by anyone...
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: What to do with bad players
It's a situation that is peculiar to Irish Trad. It happens all the time. It's an inborn thing. People sitting in a session and playing along because they believe its easy, and are too thick to realise otherwise. They have this inborn idea that anybody can play didley music. Shure you should have heard my old granny play the mouth organ, she could play it with her eyes shut...........Sorry, you are not gonna win unless you move somewhere else. Why not get the 'committee' to arrange your session in non licenced premises. Serve tea or light refreshments. That should get rid of the drunk for a start and you may even get musicians joining in who just hate pubs and everything about them. I have a dream!!!!!!!
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Free Reed
Re: What to do with bad players
Yep, stop going for a while and try else where.......
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: What to do with bad players
My twa farthings:
The truth will set you free. Tell them, if you really care about this and if you feel you can be objective.
Be polite, be humane.
Stick to facts, not opinions
( "You do not seem to keep tempo with the rest of us" vs. "You have no rhythm, it sucks" ).
Make certain you DO have a consensus among the other session members, if the session is the thing, not just personalities.
( You seem to indicate that you do. )
Handle them the way you would want to be handled if you did not know you were out of line.
( They may be unaware or delusional )
In the final analysis, is it worth an ulcer?
Cut your losses, one way or the other.
FWIW.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Piece
Re: What to do with bad players
Arrange to have the session turn into a "gig" for a while. "Yeah, the bar owner wanted to streamline things, and do it more formally to see how that goes. So we're going with one bouzouki, no guitar, and just this lineup."
But sometimes there just comes a point where you have to shoot the wounded.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: What to do with bad players
Write into the committee's by laws that the preservation of egalitarianism is the main purpose of the session, elect the fearsome, drunken flute player as the committee's chairman-for-life then start carpooling with a designated driver to a different and hopefully inclusive, but not too inclusive, session.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by ∅
Re: What to do with bad players
"...shoot the wounded..."
No Paw! Not 'Old Yeller'!
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What to do with bad players
Agree that you all out to have fun by making music and having a few pints and natters with your mates. Agree that you will not allow anyone to threaten any aspect of this and that such persons as do threaten this will be told that they are not going to be joining in with you any more. This is nothing top do with whether they are beginners, nor is it about elitism. It's about their wrong attitude to everyone else's night out. There is no other way. Such people in my experience are incredibly thick-skinned and understand nothing except plain talk. Plain, not rude. Now go and tell 'em, while you're still sober at the start of the evening. I don't go to the pub to endure simmering resentment.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: What to do with bad players
to do innit
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: What to do with bad players
you are all out
Please give us five minutes to edit!
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: What to do with bad players
It is all about respect. I am relatively new to sessions and have found everyone, without exception, to be very friendly and inclusive. I sit quietly with my fiddle on my lap, and when a tune comes up at a speed that I can play, I play it. When I make mistakes, I tone it down until I get my bearings.
I have noticed that there is often a pecking order in a session. Some people take the lead and others fall in behind. Setting the tempo can be contentious. I choose my sessions with that in mind. I prefer sessions that are slower, relaxed and tuneful over blistering sessions where half the players are playing well beyond their ability.
At one slow session there is a woman who plays poorly. She is often half a tone off. But she enjoys it and you have to give her credit for being enthusiastic. She shows up early and enjoys playing a few tunes before the session starts. She always leaves at half time, much to everyone's relief. She knows where she fits in and she is respectful. I would never think of discouraging her.
On the other hand some of the "best" players can be obnoxious. There is a great player who receives sighs of disappointment when he walks into the room at one of the faster sessions. When he starts playing, he just takes way too much space. He plays very fast and often leaves very competent players behind in the dust. His music is great, but he is not respectful of the group.
At the opposite extreme there is an internationally known fiddle player who sometimes shows up to various sessions in the area. He generally blends in. He is acutely aware of the capabilities of the group and he unobtrusively lifts the music without necessarily standing out. He is a superb musician who parks his ego when he enters a session. He contributes enormously to everyone's appreciation of the music. When the time is right, and he chooses his time carefully, he can blow the doors off, or just as easily bring people to tears with the beauty of his music.
Thankfully, there are lots of sessions to choose from and people find their own level. Playing in a group is always a compromise of style and ability. Just remember that when you find yourself in the groove with a group of other players who are enjoying themselves, it is a wonderful thing. Enjoy it!
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by robertf
Re: What to do with bad players
robertf has a good point. Attitude is an important part of what makes a 'bad' player--it is not just technical ability that matters.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: What to do with bad players
You're in a pub, the landlord/lady/manager decides who stays and goes, not the session leader, not the collective, not the committee.
if tension between the musicians is creating a bad atmosphere or putting people off, and the musicians aren't buying drinks anyway, they might just turf the lot of you out!
Like Steve said, I don't go to the pub to endure simmering resentment, I can get that at home for free.
A great session with good players is a magical thing when it happens, but you have to accept that it's a rare thing and you can't force it
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Bren
Re: What to do with bad players
I'm away to Leitir Ceanainn to hunt for a good session now. I'll pick up a new tune or two instead of the same old at home, Beidh an craic is nócha! Those two messers won't be there (hopefully)
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
Bren, I don't know how typical our situation is but the pub landlords, etc., round here don't get involved at all in who plays with us. If we accept a player he gets free beer like the rest of us. It's up to us whether he joins in or not. It's up to the landlord to allow him into the alehouse. Two separate roles there.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Steve Shaw
What to do with a session down the street.
I am completely bewildered that any session would allow 2 people to break up the session without so much as a word to either individual. The only thing I can suss out is if the session, or pub, isn't so great to begin with. On the other hand, the concept of a committee - run session doesn't appeal to me in the least.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What to do with bad players
The sessions can be great sometimes. But if none of the key players aren't there it is just a disaster. I was just talking to a couple of players and we're going to mention it to them about their playing, otherwise we're gonna join the Judean Peoples Front, or was that the Peoples Front of Judea? Whatever, we're just gonna split.
BTW, The Donegal Fleadh was non existent. Tried ever pub and no music whatsoever. What a waste of petrol.
# Posted on May 8th 2010 by ruaidhri
Re: What to do with bad players
I love it when we gather around a table crowded with our pint glasses either empty, full, or half drunk... and we're performing the tunes we've leaned and love for our own pleasure and amusement. Often no one is there but us, but more than often there is an audience of onlookers. Sessions are great indeed...
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: What to do with bad players
What's needed is to have like they do in hockey, a penalty box. The referee ( that would be me, and I don't work cheap, it's dangerous) would give a yellow card to the offening player and he would have to hand over his instrument and sit in the penalty box for 1 to 5 sets depending on the severity of the offense. The penalty box would consist of a stall in the privy. Upon serving out the yellow card penalty, the offending player may rejoin the session. If a second offense occurs, the player is given a red card and is now ejected from the session through a gauntlet of booing punters.
Now in order to become a sanctioned session referee, you must first study all the session rules and regulations. You must be able to recite them by heart and recieve your credentials from me. I can provide all the training and for a small fee plus airfare and accomadations, I will come to your locality to train and certify all your session referee's.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: What to do with bad players
That would be like discussing religion on the golf course (I hasten to add that I neither play golf, as I'm still sane, nor am I religious, heaven forfend). It would get me booted out of the pub without so much as a by your leave. Except for the ritual slagging to which you refer. That's pure sport.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: What to do with bad players
That was to Jon.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: What to do with bad players
"A great session with good players is a magical thing when it happens, but you have to accept that it's a rare thing and you can't force it"
Ah Bren, thats the truth of the situation. Even session predominated by great players don't manage to generate the magic on every occasion.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: What to do with bad players
A great session doesn't depend on the quality of the players at all. When I was learning to play, three or four of us getting together at someone's house to bang through the ten tunes we knew felt fantastic - probably sounded awful, but that wasn't the point.
I've also played with very good players, and come away feeling like the whole thing was a bit of a waste of time, even though the music sounded a lot more polished than the usual.
The consistent factor is very simple, and not at all novel. What makes a session feel great is the people involved - not just how well they play their instruments. The funny thing is, this is true even for the people listening.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What to do with bad players
Jon my point was that the magic one can have at a tune doesn't happen every time you sit down, no matter who you are. Great sessions, the ones that stick in your mind & the minds of the others present, both players & listeners, are the exception not the norm IME.
IMO you have to attend and take the rough with the smooth to be there when the good times occur. If it's all rough then I wouldn't think twice about not showing up. I live a a remote area where everyone knows everyone, and some tact is required (if you don't want to to cause a scene that can affect other aspects of your life). Absence can often convey more than words and if your absence isn't seen for what it is what good are your words going to achieve with people such as these? The OP has identified the issue and realised something has to give, there's only so much giving possible until you realise there's nothing left.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: What to do with bad players
Cheers Jon. I guess I was trying to point out, in agreement with you, lol, that the standard of the players isn't a barrier to these magic moments happening.
My uncertainty regarding your post came from the quote from Bren I used which talked about "good players" and your post that mentioned in the opening "A great session doesn't depend on the quality of the players at all", words lol.
I'm also in complete agreement that it's the people that make the moment and that everything else stems from that base.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: What to do with bad players
We'd better stop all this agreeing, or we'll spoil the fun.
Here's a thought, dunno what to make of it yet (I'm supposed to be writing code, not commentary). This comes from your observation that "the magic doesn't always happen".
What do you think of the idea that a "great session" gets to be great (in part at least) by being a session that helps make the magic happen for everyone.
I've been on both sides of this now: a new player, unsure of what they're doing, starts to play a tune, and is having trouble. One of the other players joins in, and just by playing with (not over, or above) the novice, brings them to a level of play they wouldn't have hit otherwiise.
This is as opposed to the "great player" who says, ah, I know that tune, and starts in, bumps up the tempo, and dropping in a lot of tricky stuff, including melodic variations that convince the novice that it's hopeless, this stuff is impossible.
The "great" player in the latter case may make a more virtuosic sound, but I'd rather play in the other pub.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: What to do with bad players
Yes I agree, scenario 1 could well to be part of the mix that helps to make a magical moment, especially for the nervous novice. IME of good seshes and tunes whether they be ex or in(clusive) is that there seems to be an unusual dynamic present, like a full moon, or people all being on the same page as regards mood.
The sesh where the bad boys turn up or the phone rings, "hey we're going to X because we've heard Y is having a surprise party" tend to be the times rather than the regular humdrum events, for me it's a kind of spontaneity where everyone gets onboard and this seems to rase everyones game even if it's just for that occasion. Bren's point, of not being able to force it seems to be a feature also (hence why it caught my eye), it just has to happen and from experience, if you go out often enough it will. So a change of venue can increase the hit rate.
I'm meant to be working also, lol................. I'll just have to work through lunch.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: What to do with bad players
Sure Steve I don't mean to imply that the landlord has any say in who plays in the session, except if he/she's barred them from the pub (which *has* happened for session-related behaviour in Aberdeen), but you need to be aware that you're inhabiting broadly the same space and time as anyone else in the pub.
Increasingly these days, the session crowd is there under sufferance and in a lot of places, the management doesn't need an awful lot of encouragement to pull the plug.. Just take a glance through the long list of cancelled and failed sessions in the "session" section. It's to your own benefit not to behave in a too off-putting manner to the aud ... er, non-playing punters and staff.
Dedicated "session any night" pubs like Sandy Bells are no model for comparison - there's maybe half a dozen pubs like that in the whole world
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Bren
Re: What to do with bad players
...and lost in all the fun is this post from robert:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24552#comment512579
"...He generally blends in. He is acutely aware of the capabilities of the group and he unobtrusively lifts the music without necessarily standing out. He is a superb musician who parks his ego when he enters a session. He contributes enormously to everyone's appreciation of the music..."
I hope that someday, someone will say this about me. "Internationally known" be damned, those four sentences are my goal for every session I play in.
Well, aside from the prime directive of having a few sips and a buncha laughs with friends, of course.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Bren, I want to thank you for your comments & following up on Steve's question. If for nothing else you're at least addressing the original post. Not always easy given the distractions.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What to do with bad players
“I've been on both sides of this now: a new player, unsure of what they're doing, starts to play a tune, and is having trouble. One of the other players joins in, and just by playing with (not over, or above) the novice, brings them to a level of play they wouldn't have hit otherwiise.”
I had recent experience of this. I usually play just a couple early on then shut up, but one night after a few beers, I had a crack at Rambling Pitchfork and the whole group joined in. I was having a ball and it probably sounded rough but by the way they played along they let me know also that they were indulging me. Two weeks later I did the same with a different group and was left whistling in the wind, each picking his nails or looking at the ceiling, letting me know where I stood. Fair enough but one group had done it in a fun way that benefitted everyone.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: What to do with bad players
Nice story, Eòsaph. I like the first lot *much* better.
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What to do with bad players
Here's a solution,
You tell both of them that the owner of the pub, doesn't want anymore sessions in his pub because of the neighbours complaining about the noise and the bad playing, you then invite the two of them to another session somewhere else, make sure it's far away, you plead with them to come to the new session and you then continue with your own session, amongst yourselves you might scarifice one musician per week to go to the other session and tell them how good they are, and how that other session really needs a strong guitar player etc....
to avoid killing another session you could actually create a real new session and have everyone go to that session and gradually phase it out so it's left with flute and guitar player....
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by Theirlandais
Re: What to do with bad players
You could always print of this page and leave copies lying on all the tables in the pub
# Posted on May 9th 2010 by tirvaluk
Re: What to do with bad players
For some reason, this verse comes to mind:
Some brolgas darted out from the tea-tree all about
And performed a set of lancers very well
The parrot green and blue gave the orchestra its cue
To strike up The Old Log Cabin in the Dell
They were dancing, as the ballad has it, to "the violin, the banjo and the bones"
Sorry, but no flutes, bodhrans or shakey eggs
# Posted on May 10th 2010 by Bren
Re: What to do with bad players
I agree with what bogman said.
An approach I take is to conspire
with guitar player and other
players to do certain sets of
tunes when the other players
are on break, eating, getting pints
etc.
Just play them out of the session.
If they try to join in, fine but play
over them, play play play play
play,
Ok then
# Posted on May 11th 2010 by dogmageek
Re: What to do with bad players
Sorry dogmageek, playing over other players is a 3 set penalty.
Hand over the fiddle and into the privy penalty box with ya!
And, leave that beer with me, no beer allowed in the penalty box!
# Posted on May 11th 2010 by Gone to work
Not bad
this
was
a very good thread.
;)
# Posted on May 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What to do with bad players
And previously, a much longer thread! But the best parts of the discussion are intact--it was the namecalling that disappeared into the aether.
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: What to do with bad players
Yeah... thank heavens.
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: What to do with bad players
Once again Jeremy has performed his bit of magic.
Does that mean we're the audience?
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by leoj
Re: What to do with bad players
tee he
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by ...
Re: What to do with bad players
Only if you clap, apparently, Joel... only if you clap.
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: What to do with bad players
It's such a cool trick.
I just wish I could figure out how he does it.
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by leoj
It's everyone's loss
I missed the namecalling. But I do think there was a healthy part of the discussion which was taken with it.
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What to do with bad players
I would comment here, but I don't take part in meta-discussions. Oh, wait. Dagnabbit!
(joel- I'm pretty sure it's just a matter of removing a set of comments from the database. poof!)
# Posted on May 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
what to do with piper that think they know it all.
to person hiding behind ruaidhri. i have never attended special needs i make good money playing guitar and singing in the pubs and clubs round the country this last 30 years and in the presant climate still not doing to bad. your around a wet weekend and you,ve tried to spoil every session going. dont know what your problem is as i have encouraged players of every level encluding yourself when you knew 2 tunes dont know where you get off slaging me but will discuss your problem with rest of session in a reasonable fashon not be hind your back.
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
please edit your post
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by croxton
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
Please edit your mind too.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
I assume you are referring to this,Brendan: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24552
I have not, to my knowledge, met either of you, nor heard either of you play, so I can't make any judgements on your musical merits. But the first two things that occur to me are:
1. If ruaidhri really finds your playing so offensive, then maybe it could do with a little refinement.
2. Ruadhri is insecure about his own shortcomings as a musician and it gives his self-esteem a boost to deride another musician, whom he sees as inferior.
Beyond that, I think this is a personal issue between the two of you and would be better solved through private emails, over a pint or down a dark alley (Sorry - ignore the last suggestion).
But, suffice to say, people on high horses usually fall off eventually.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
(...I can feel another thread coming on: "What do do with mandolin player who thinks they know it all")
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
This one will be getting deleted soon - Jeremy's in a deletin' mood
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Hup
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
if this one is going to get deleted,
then...
Up Cork! 2010 All Ireland Football champions
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by mickyfong
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
I think it amusing that the guitarist appears to use his own name .
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
If the language in the op is any indication, I strongly suspect a rather large communication gap.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
Maybe Mr Gallagher should have a serious look (listen) at himself. I feel he knows he is the problem, sounds aggresive and unapproachable. Ruaidhri, I think you need to move on unless you have the guts to tell him he is sh*te.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by iwerzon
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
brendan upload a video of you playing in a session, same goes for your nemesis ruaidhri
we will be the judges of this titanic confilct
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
... and then we would get "And who are you to judge, you can't play for toffee" etc etc
Where does it all end?
[I know you were joking, but just in case ...]
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
Let the Game's begin -- lol.
jim,,,
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
Brendan if you are so good, then take your ball and go home. As we say in the states. Who cares! We all have people in our lives that bug the &^* out of us. Frankly as for musician folk very few are capable of really ruining my night, when I do have a crap night, it's usually easy to see some sort of stessor in my own life caused it... lack of sleep... is usually the culprit. So I go home and go to bed... come back fresh a week later, and its all good. If you and this piper really cannot share the same air ever again, then what are you whining on about it here for, take your guitar.. and go elsewhere.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
Can someone please send me the sheet music for this *AWESOME* YouTube clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXanHvrjQO0&p=FE4732CF4BD9EFAA&playnext=1&index=3
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by browndog
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
No problem can be solved from the same level of con sciousness that created it.- Albert Einstein.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
i love good rant when type angry. all punctuation go bye-bye.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: what to do with piper that think they know it all.
Well, yes. Punctuation only gets in the way of a good rant.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
re what to do with piper who knows it all.
just a few comments to people who took time out to read my post . dont know why i should edit it . does my post sound agressive but i take offence to be called like special needs . im not afraid to put my name to it , as i beleive my names good enough . i dont have to hide it. ive sung live on rte. bbc and radio stations so dont judge untill you hear me . taking a computer class at the moment cant wait to be able to upload . iwerson has found me guilty already at end of the day he seems to have problem not me. this piper has been learning this last 3 years , i have no problem with him either playing or in person . but beleive he shoulded be slagging me off on a web site. just learned of this post yesterday. i have no problem disscusing problem with him in a cival manner.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
JERRY JERRY JERRY
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
LOL, I think *both* mr. gallagher and ruaidhri are annoying, bringing their personal spat on here.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Brendan for heaven's sake man - stop digging! All you have acomplished with your last two posts is to make yourself an easy target for drive-by cheap shots and additional slagging. Go meet your man at the pub and get it sorted out. Then buy each other a pint and have a few tunes.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Yes, agreed.
Brendan, there is no smoke without fire. No way would I judge you, but singing on RTE, BBC etc and live gigs for 30 years means next to nothing when it comes to backing tunes at sessions. You could be very competent at backing songs but totally rubbish at backing tunes. Not saying you are but the other fellow has issues with your playing and claims others do too, so don't wash your nickers in public and do yourself a favour and have a serious look at your session playing.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Well I would love to hear some of your playing Brendan. Do you sing any songs? Anything online?
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Sorry - should have read your first post clearer. I see you are a singer. Well it would be great to hear some of your stuff.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
"dont know why i should edit it"
...Eh, cause you're not really making much sense.
Re read before you press 'post' or 'submit'.
Where are you based?
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
"dont know why i should edit it"
Well for starters - "Don't know why I should edit it." Correct use of capitals and punctuation might make you seem like less of a raving nutter!
You should have your hissy fit in private.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by jimtowat
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
When you post anything like this, the flamers/winders-up and sundry pedants will go through your posting with a fine tooth-comb and note any spelling mistake or grammatical error, so make sure there aren't any, or you have lost for a start. Like.
TIP: Don't forget to use capital letters and punctuation where required.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by geoffwright
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
well no one on here must oject to been called a special needs person. Pipers the one who made his rant public on this site knowing i wasnt on computer to reply.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Technically he didn't call you a special needs person. He said that somebody else thought you were. In all honesty that is possibly worse but best be accurate.
Anyway, I don't care about all of that. I enjoy songs and listening to new artists and would love to hear a track or two if you have any online.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Not as yet, i have just started to learn how to use computers, just started class 3 weeks ago , every monday night for 2 hours . She,s going to show us how to upload soon.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Well you have all the terminology down at any rate and here you are on the web forums so talk about diving in.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Well Brendan, they can say what they like about your playing but they can't say you're not open to constructive criticism. Each post is just a little better than the last.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by jimtowat
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Trying my best im nearly 49, years old, long time since i was at school.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Should I give up going to the sessions.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Impossible to say. None of us have heard you, this flute player or indeed the complaining piper. None of us have been to the session or know the dynamics or the people involved.
It is easy to take sides online but who knows really? All I can suggest is be as aware as you can of the other folk around you - something most of us struggle with from time to time - and try to find a compromise.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
I have always tried my best to give respect to other players at the sessions no matter what their abilty.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Try singing with 2/3 pipers, 2 drums,2/3 accordians.flute and whistles. you learn to be tolerant.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
2/3 of a piper? That would be distracting, at the least. Is the missing third from the top, or the bottom, or did he just lose a lot of weight recently?
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Should I give up going to the sessions?. No. If all these lead players are playing on top of your singing then they have issues too. As No Cause says, nobody here can judge your playing but there is only gain to be had by considering what's been said. If there are issues with wrong keys and playing too loud then there are ways to address it. Why not ask if anyone minds you recording the session. Place the recorder nearer the strong tune players, take the recording home and practise backing it. Of course you may be a fine backer of tunes but who's to know here.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Also an earlier comment said there was a bouzouki player there too. If there is more than one accompanist then it is always a good idea to take it in turns a bit. It rarely sounds good having more than one accompanist on the go at any one time unless it is very arranged.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Jon Kiparsky. I was told to read my post first, 2/3 PIPERS.
Im learning fast.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Good advice Bogman might try that .Other piper always asks me to back him. No issues there.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Got it. I thought maybe there had been an industrial accident.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: re what to do with piper who knows it all.
Doing a concert on friday night bouzouki player is going to back me on Nancy spain and Is erin ni nosin kay hee. (Irish not to good) For Ireland i wont tell her name.
# Posted on October 20th 2010 by brendan gallagher
Re: What to do with bad players
Brendan I have no idea what you play like but please take no notice of the intellectuals here who think it is way more important to have The Queens english than have a knowledge of traditional music. You come across like a nice man. Sing your heart out and enjoy it and take it very easy on the accompaniment and you and everyone else will enjoy the tunes more.
# Posted on October 21st 2010 by big_tab
Bad players/piper who knows it all
A very brief thank you to Jeremy. I haven't followed round 2 of this drama (telenovela?). It was brill to combine them.
My pipedream is to have the bodhran, ear-dot, how not to play this music, et. al. threads combined, in kind, to make a series of TheSession.org's all time hits (or misses).
# Posted on October 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What to do with bad players
This threads closed as i dont think the piper,s worth losing sleep over. Had a good session last night and playing at a concert tonight, enjoying my self .PLAY ON.
# Posted on October 22nd 2010 by brendan gallagher