Yes, the subject has certainly been given plenty of air time here and elsewhere, but I like the succinctness of this excerpt from Erin Shrader’s advice to those planning to attend Lark Camp:
A session is not the same as a performance. What makes a session exciting is a sense of togetherness. Tempos can be high, depending on the overall ability of the crowd, but the lightning speed found in today’s virtuoso recordings just leaves too many on the wayside. A variety of tempos throughout the evening—some blazing, some groovy, some dreamy, some just rocking along—lets the mood shift and allows more space to come up with variations. Save the blistering tempos for performance or the most exclusive sessions.
Likewise, if you’re not up to the level of play, whatever that is, resist the temptation to bring the session down to your ability level by starting a lot of tunes within your grasp. If you notice that the players you really admire aren’t quite meeting your eye, that might be the reason why. This seems to happen more and more and it’s counterproductive. The exciting players will retreat to the smallest room they can find and stay there. You’ll improve faster if you let the level of the session stay high and keep reaching for it. Organize a slow session for another time.
Repertoire is important. Every musical community has a common repertoire and there’s a reason those tunes have remained popular for generations—they’re good. There’s always an unspoken challenge—show off your insider status by starting the most exclusive new tunes. But a string of these will kill a session. Occasional solos are welcome throughout the night, but you’ll be better remembered for the one sparkling gem, especially if you slide gracefully into an old favorite that everyone can join, giving the whole room a lift. That’s a thrill you can’t have any other way, and you’ll be known for your obscure tunes and gracious ways.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Good stuff. I am definately one of those players who does't get nearly enough opportunities to join a session, and my skill level is always in the bottom rung. I enjoy playing the few tunes I know well enough to join in, but other than that I stay out of it out of respect to the session and not wanting to bring it down. I have no problem spending 90% of my time sitting, sipping, and listening, and apparently neither do they. Luckily there's not premium on space, so I'm sure that's a factor. I think part of session etiquette is simply being happy with not playing the majority of sets. If you think playing every set is a very important part of it, then I think you are missing the point.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That's probably the most sensible summary of session 'etiquette' I've read yet. 'Etiquette' in quotes, because it doesn't lay out a contrived set of rules, but merely states observations on human interactions.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I like the whole thing except she never defined what she meant by 'performance' or how and why is session is not the same. I looked up 'performance' and, as it relates to music, it indicates there is a person playing and others are listening. Perhaps she means that everyone is expected to be playing and that's what makes it not a 'performance' since there would be no listeners, but then she discusses occasions within a session where only one or a few are playing which would make the others present listeners... hence a 'performance' according to definition... unless the ones listening are expected to ignore the ones playing, but she hadn't indicated that either. So it's just a bit confusing in the first sentence. Maybe 'formal performance' or 'staged performance' might have been more clear.
Actually, that's not the 1st sentence which Erin wrote (see link). oldstrings gave us an excerpt. IMHO it is not confusing, at all, if you read everything she posted on the blog. Thanks Erin!
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Good advice here. For me, a perfect evening involves some time just listening. If everyone knows the same tunes, and everyone plays at the same level, things can get boring. Too many people seem to think that if everyone isn't participating at every moment, the session is not going well. But nothing could be further from the truth. And the last thing I would want to do is begrudge some outstanding player a chance to play to the best of their potential.
In a performance, some people are players and some are listeners. In a session, those borders blur, as people drop in and out, and sometimes the whole pub could join in on a chorus. The line between 'performer' and 'audience' disappears.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Random... I see no definition for the use of the word other than saying it isn't whatever a 'performance' is. Please show me where this is clarified.
From Erin's article:
"The real heart of Lark camp is not performance or even the classes that fill the daytime hours—it’s social music making, especially the Irish session, since Irish musicians outnumber all others."
"A session is not the same as a performance."
"Save the blistering tempos for performance or the most exclusive sessions."
The only possible distinction is calling it "social music making," but this still leaves a lot of room for clarity since most of the 'social music making' around Lark Camp includes both players and listeners, and often even occurs as a, 'staged or formal performance' organized in advance to be performed before a seated audience who came specifically to listen. Do you mean that her last reference defines "blistering tempos" as a "performance"?
All I'm saying is the word was used presumptively and without clarification. It has little to do with her overall message, but since this word has been previously presented in this forum this way, I am pointing it out in isolation with my previous post.
~~~
As far as her article goes, I have been a Lark Camp regular since 1982 and have also been a witness and participant in the Irish music scene. I realize that the sessions have evolved along with the change in personalities who participate and the general state of Irish music making among the players. Many or even most of the players from the early days have since moved on and/or are involved in other music genres around camp, and only show up occasionally... if at all. The result, when you consider an influx of amazing younger newcomers, is that the sessions themselves will naturally experience change. I think there's very little that can be done about this since everyone is there for their enjoyment and they seek whatever works for them. If that means they tuck themselves away in a small room to control the size of the session... so be it. Do I like to be shut out of a session? No, but on the other hand I can see why they might choose to do what they do. Erin successfully illustrates the tendencies of the larger old-style Lark Sessions that sometimes drag down the level of the playing with poor session etiquette she describes. I think if people followed her advice we might see less of the smaller sessions that may or may not be a response to the larger sessions, but I still maintain that a session is whatever the people having it want it to be, and it's the choice of participants as to whether they think they can or are capable of contributing or not.
Having said that... the larger old-style sessions Erin refers to can be just as exclusive at times. I've seen sessions where the few who "earned our way from the outer ranks to take turns in the center" have been very exclusive as well regarding who they choose to make room for in that center circle. This ends up having the same effect since proximity to the center is where tune choices are made and the chosen session style emulates, and the further you are away the more remote and left out you feel. This might also be something that drives players into other smaller rooms around the camp.
So to conclude, and as Erin points out, "there is a time and a place for both." I think there should be room for any and all session styles and preferences around camp to insure everyone has a good time.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Attaboy, PB, this was going MUCH too smoothly for my liking! That which initially looks like a near-perfect guide should encourage all manner of doubts and fears.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Oldstrings, am I being criticized by you for commenting on the article and post? I have attacked no one... I haven't called anyone names... please tell me specifically what it is about my comments you object to.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Al writes: "In a performance, some people are players and some are listeners. In a session, those borders blur, as people drop in and out, and sometimes the whole pub could join in on a chorus. The line between 'performer' and 'audience' disappears."
So any concert is no longer a performance if the audience joins in on a chorus? That really doesn't clarify it for me. I think if she would have said, "A session is not the same as a concert" it might be more clear. Concerts are clearly something organized, usually in advance, and are indicated with a price for admission, etc. I would never call a session a 'concert.'
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You've attacked no-one, PB. And yet your posts here are enough probably to scupper any reasonable discussion of what is a helpful quote. And I think you know that.
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Interesting opinion, ethical, but unsubstantiated unless you can demonstrate how anything I've said has ruined the discussion. I have only added my comments on both the post and the article. Please edify us.
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Ok so no one can demonstrate how I have done what they are accusing me of--all I've done is to comment on this post and on the article it was sourced from. Errant and baseless accusations don't interest me, but If you have anything that relates to what I've actually said I'll be interested to hear it.
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Ethical, if anyone is 'scuppering' the discussion it is the people who are attacking me for simply commenting on this thread. Why not try actually responding to the points I raised instead?
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Ahh so lads, an alternative viewpoint;'' scupper any reasonable discussion of what is a helpful quote'' So Perhaps you might explain that?
Just because you, or I, do not see things as others do, or disagree with a concept you believe in , is simply a fact of life and 'viva la differance'.
Discussions thrive on alternative viewpoints. Yes her points re sessions are spot on, so? What kind of discussion do you get when everyone agrees?
I think PB's point here;
"A session is not the same as a concert" it might be more clear. Concerts are clearly something organized, usually in advance, and are indicated with a price for admission, etc. I would never call a session a 'concert.'
Is very valid and does not rely on redifining a word to suit your belief system.
But just supposing this subject didnt get raised what do you wish to discuss about what she said? just carry on.... You are free to respond to PB's points, or not. There is no obligation on you to respond or take on board anyone elses input or understanding, feel free to ignore unwelcome ideas.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Thread hijack. The thread is about this particular person's view of session etiquette as so published on teh innarwebz.
Taking one piece of it and turning the thread into a discussion of that one piece is a thread hijack. If we 'need' to flog the 'Is a Session a Performance?" routine yet again we should start a new thread, I feel.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That being said, there is excellent advice in this article, especially for those running sessions from the inner core:
"...If you’re a leader, remember to find the balance between keeping the engine room rocking along and completely disregarding the outer ranks, between staying in the groove and letting tempos drag or race out of hand, between splashy tunes and the old favorites..."
"...And if there are singers in the room, don’t forget to ask them for the occasional song..."
Well, except for that last one, maybe that's not the best advice. It should have an amendment: "...ask the singers for a song, as long as you've pre-cleared them and you know you're not in for something truly awful."
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Further good quotes from Erin's article:
"...There’s always an unspoken challenge—show off your insider status by starting the most exclusive new tunes. But a string of these will kill a session. Occasional solos are welcome throughout the night, but you’ll be better remembered for the one sparkling gem, especially if you slide gracefully into an old favorite that everyone can join, giving the whole room a lift..."
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Its not possible to 'pre-clear' any new musicians who come in hopeing to sing or play a few tunes. This is why some folk resort to closed sessions, or small rooms. So that their 'session experirence' is not dominated or ruined by clueless newcomers. Its also not just folk who cant/play , folk who play well enough but with a severly limited repertoir can also cause session death!. Every time the set ends they start up the boys of blue hill in a stilted fashion , or some such other tune.
Personally I feel its myths like' the session is not a performance' and other myths like ' sessions are all inclusive' etc that create these unrealistic expectations in folk new to the music. So the good players who just want to play a few tunes that interest them, with a few folk that they enjoy playing with, get labled 'snobs', eltiists etc etc.
Every session is different. Every player has their own 'agenda'
Size is also a crucial aspect of a session. These mass sessions may be fun, to some, but we dont all enjoy them and we have a right to play in , and organise , sessions we enjoy.
IMO there should be many more sessions, so that everyone is catered for. House sessions, kitchin sessions, staged sessions, concert sessions, Kitchin sessions , fireside sessions, singing sessions, mixed sessions, strictly tune sessions, strictly irish sessions, loose informal sessions, anything goes sessions, bluegrass/greengrass sessions, etc etc etc. Too many expectations, often unrealistic, do not for a good session make. IMO
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Yes, it is possible. I do it all the time.
I was talking about songs and and singers. If someone asks to sing a song at our session and I don't know them, I will talk to them first. If it's some drunken yabo who wants to holler The Wild Rover, then no. If it's some sweet little old lady, I may let her sing whatever she wants.
So yes, it is possible to pre-clear singers, unless you don't want to.
Tunes are a different matter. Howdy stranger, you play tunes? Fair play, more power to ya. Start us up a set.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
...and expectations too. Novices should have the proper expectation and not expect a slow session just for them. At the same time, those running an open session should not turn it into a closed one on a whim. Give and take. Common sense goes a long way. Too bad it's so uncommon.
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I like that idea, for us generally its a bunch round a table, a set finishes and someone starts a song, or asks' can i start a song'. There is little oportunity to get up and vet em! different sessions/places...
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I think it's a part of running an open session, versus a closed one. Open, yes, but open with the limits of the tradition and good taste!
Those are probably poor terms as they imply things that aren't meant. Open incorrectly meaning "Hey dudes, can I jam with you? Is it open mike night?" and closed incorrectly meaning "We're all snobs, go away."
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"Oldstrings, am I being criticized by you for commenting on the article and post? I have attacked no one... I haven't called anyone names... please tell me specifically what it is about my comments you object to."
"It looks like oldstrings is just commenting on how well you're performing your function.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by leoj"
I assure you, Phantom Button, there was no sarcasm implied!
I simply meant that there was only polite agreement until you opened up some fresh thoughts.
*Note to self: try to be more lucid...*
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Yes, Oldstrings, I realized that after dinner when I came back and gave myself time to digest what you were saying.
Actually, my point about replacing the word 'performance' with the word 'concert' in order to be more clear is a minor point to the actual discussion that has ensued. The actual discussion here is regarding session size and limits in relation to being exclusive/inclusive. As I said, I agree with everything Erin said about session etiquette, but I happen to know first hand what the context is behind her article is. For anyone who read her article in its entirety, I'll explain what has transpired over the last couple of years at Lark Camp.
A mini controversy has emerged at Lark Camp regarding session size and location. I don't think it's any different from the sort of thing that happens at any music camp where there are Irish sessions, but in this case it regards the difference between locating in a large or small room.
The layout of the space where most Irish sessions at LC take place is situated in and around a rustic kitchen and dining complex that includes a kitchen, serving area, two dining halls, a front porch, 2 side areas outside, and various storage rooms.
Traditionally the Irish sessions were held in the serving room or dining halls primarily and could expand to include up to around 20 to 30 people or so. (Erin describes these sessions as 'engines' with inner and outer circles.)
Then in the last 3 years an influx of young amazing players showed up on the scene and, as many of us regulars there already had, found the big sessions were fun, but also longed for intimate sessions where only a half dozen or so are playing. Also, sometimes the big sessions were cumbersome, as Erin also describes, especially when there was a predominance of sloppy session etiquette that sometimes was more common than not. (I've seen the same complaints about other music school and festival sessions in this forum.)
Anyway... a few of the new hot players discovered that one of the storage rooms could be a good location for a session with the added feature of physically limiting the size of the session. These sessions are great fun if you happen to land in them, but frustrating as you stood outside listening to all of your favorite tunes flying by and seeing no way to find a spot to join in. But the music coming out of that storage room is some of the best Irish music I've heard at LC and I wouldn't want to stop or discourage that in any way.
As I pointed out, I find the big session inner and outer circle sessions to feature their own form of exclusion, but there has been some of the best music coming out of those sessions too. It's all good, and there should be room for all sorts of session location, sizes, styles. And that's one of the great features of LC--there IS room for everything.
Unfortunately there was some grumbling about the storage room sessions that were a little unfair since the big sessions featured their own brand of exclusion that nothing could be done about. But it was minor and the sessions at LC have been as good as ever the last few years.
Dear Mr. Gilder,
My humble apologies for not responding earlier. I logged off last night after my last post.
Phanthom Button: "Random... I see no definition for the use of the word (performance) other than saying it isn't whatever a 'performance' is. Please show me where this is clarified."
The blog does not provide a definition for the word, performance. If you are looking for a single point of distinction between what a session is & a performance is not, I do not know that there is one. Erin's blog says much about how various Irish musicians view sessions & how those sessions vary. So, how is *performance* not the real heart of Lark camp? When one goes to the music camp there is alot to see. It is possible to simply enjoy the spectacle, as an onlooker, & never engage with a single living person. This is something akin to *watching* the performance. It is a sight to see. And there are onlookers. But to do this is to miss out on the full depth of what you might hear if you listen, what you may learn if you join in on the social music making. Or to put it simply, at least in my humble opinion, once you session with others you are no longer merely watching the performance ~ even if this is only to close your eyes & listen.
"The real heart of Lark camp is not performance or even the classes that fill the daytime hours—it’s social music making . . . "
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
My comment about suggesting the replacement of the word 'performance' with the word 'concert' was merely that-- a suggestion. Why? For better clarity. The discussion about session size is the issue Erin addresses in her article. I was directed to her article when the concept of context was introduced in response to my point about the word choice. This is where I think the discussion has any real interest; most people in this forum have attended large sessions at music camps and festivals and might find it interesting and/or have comments to add.
How about you, Random, have you been to Lark or other music schools and camps where there are big sessions like what Erin describes? Perhaps you have something to add on that topic.
It has been years since I have been to Lark music camp. There is plenty of room outside, however, to strike up a session. For me the only real issue is staying warm on a cold night.
I have little to add aside from what has already been said by Erin & Al Brown.
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I just received an email regarding my comments on this thread. If anyone has been put off by my posts I want to assure you I intend no offense toward anyone who has commented on this thread. Quite the contrary ~ it is a grand discussion.
Ben
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
You have made no offensive comments, Random, but you do have a confrontational tone in your first few posts directed at me and you called my point a 'red herring'. I am not about to confront you with your public attack on my personal opinion... you can take it or leave it... I have no interest in getting into fights with you or anyone else in this forum. What I enjoy is sharing opinions and responding to ideas presented here.
As for my first point in this thread, I'm still not convinced any definition of what a 'performance' is in the article despite your explanation, and I still think 'concert' might have been more clear in the first sentence of what was posted at the beginning of this thread.
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Jack, I agreed that the blog does not provide a definition for the word, performance. My 1st post & all subsequent comments were intended as clarification. As for the red herring comment it was due to the fact that I was focused on a term used by Ms. Shrader & perhaps my energies may have been better spent elsewhere. If you were not leading us astray I thank you for that.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
How could I possibly have been leading you astray? I was commenting on what was quoted at the beginning of the thread? What amazes me is that my comment was a minor point and I was basically agreeing with everything Erin said... yet you are still talking about it. I think the discussion got interesting when we were directed to the article the quote comes from and started looking at the dynamics of sessions at music camps and festivals. Far more interesting than my first point.
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Phantom Button, Well, I guess if we need to go down that road again, lets go down it. To be blunt, I feel like you see confrontational tones any time anyone uses the word 'performance' in a different sense than the definition you prefer. Certainly, you seem to feel you must confront anyone who uses the word in a way you dislike. We have established the different shades of interpretation of the word in many threads and many discussions. You use the word a bit differently than some of the others who post on this website--we know that, and we don't need you dragging out the dictionary anytime anyone uses it in a context that you dislike. Many people who use the word 'performance' use it in the sense that you refer to above as 'formal performance' or 'staged performance,' not in the broader sense that you prefer. That is their perogative, it is a big world, and lots of people use lots of words that have lots of definitions in lots of different ways. Please, give it a rest...
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Wow... and now Al insists on going on about it... amazing. Talk about leading the discussion astray... Random... where is your concern about this now? Will you be taking Al to task for what you accused me of?
Random... if you review the thread you'll see that my first point was being attacked and you joined in calling it a 'red herring'. I agree that your drawing attention to the article where the quote originated helped move the discussion forward in a positive direction, but I'm amazed how you guys are so insistent on picking a fight with me simply because I suggested that the word 'performance' was a bit ambiguous and could be replaced with the word 'concert' for a little more clarity. Think about this fellas... are you really serious about picking a fight over this? I'm not. I'd prefer to discuss the topic that the discussion took resulting from examining the article. Far more interesting... can we do that instead please?
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Thanks Al, but I think finding out that Jack considers this a minor issue is reassuring. The more important part of this discussion was well presented when Phantom Button went into detail about how sessions, at the music camp, have evolved over the past few years. Nothing to loose sleep over here.
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Phantom Button, you are a superb musician, better than I will ever be. And you are a valuable, and often witty, contributor to this website. But all this gets cheapened every time you react to the word 'performance' the way Ahab reacts to a report from the crosstrees that a white whale has been sighted. If this was the only time you jumped in to question someones usage of the word, that would be one thing, but it happens over and over. And the point of the discussion gets lost. If you think I am pulling the discussion off track, you are welcome to do so, and I will bow out...
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NOTE TO FORUM: I tried to take this discussion off list and into private emails, but Al seems to want to maintain it as a public spectacle for some reason.
Al... I will always respond to ideas, comments, opinions, expressed in these forums when I have something to say. Keep in mind that it was not I who made a big deal about my first point, and I even characterized it as a 'minor point.' It was the people who can't let go of the word's infamy who have chosen to beat a dead horse. Long ago there was an attempt to reinvent the meaning of that word... and it failed because the definition says it all... full stop. I still think if it were replaced with 'concert' it would be more clear. This is just my opinion and a minor point in this thread. I was through with it when I hit 'post' after composing my first comment. Are you really going to dwell on it?
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
We solved this one last time. I think we came to the conclusion that it's people's definitions of "session" that are probably different, rather than their definition of "performance". Some people see sessions as being more like gigs where you have really tight music that's basically a bunch of arranged sets played by a band, and there's an audience in the pub who clap after every set and stuff. I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions which are simply the sharing of tunes between musicians, regardless of whether or not there's an audience there, and not a performance at all, any more than playing on your own at home is a performance. Trying to separate "session" and "concert" by pointing out that a concert is usually pre-arranged is also a bit odd. Plenty sessions are pre-arranged too.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That's not to say that clapping is necessarily a bad thing. If someone wants to show their appreciation of the tunes that way then fine. But if they do it after every set, then the atmosphere created by the musicians has probably become one of "performance" rather than "session". That's just not what I enjoy when I go to the pub to play tunes. Maybe you do enjoy that, PB, cause that's what you're used to, and that's how your culture always treats music-making (think "American Idol"?) - each to his/her own.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Well, people sometimes clap at our sessions despite the fact we aren't playing pre-arranged sets as a band and there are between 5 to 15 musicians present who are trickling in and out. Punters can see it isn't a concert since we aren't on stage and we're sitting around a table with drinks in front of us... and talking and laughing between tunes. I think they can see that we're just performing tunes for each other's amusement and our own mutual enjoyment. But occasionally they really like the music that results and they are moved to express it. I don't consider that a mistake, and I certainly don't think their response disqualifies what we're doing as a 'session.'
(Ay chance we can move on now and get back on topic regarding large sessions and small sessions at music camps and festivals?)
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
He's showing his appreciation for the other musicians. If he looks at Martin Hayes and claps at him after every set then, whether he realises it or not, he's acknowledging that MH is performing for him, which he probably is - Martin Hayes is a performer. If the onlookers clap after every set then, yeah, I'd say it's more of a performance than a session, but I'm sure MH would be fine with that. I'd rather hear people chatting and glasses clinking, that sort of stuff. Like I said, everyone has different ideas about what a session is.
If you'd care to read my comments for what they say - nothing more and nothing less - you'll see that I don't have a problem with clapping per se, but clapping after every set. Clapping after every set alters the whole feel of a session and changes the sociological setup and interrelationships between the participants. Clapping along to tunes alters it even more - especially since your average punter is unable to clap along to reels because they don't get the whole thing of backbeat and drive.
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The clapping thing is a tricky one as the folk in the pub don't necessarily know what's expected of them....
Nothing, is the simple answer, but with people who've never experienced a pub where some informal music is happening, how they should behave seems to cause some confusion. I'm thinking holiday makers.
Some get tribal others clap some just look perplexed.
The locals for their part are well used to music in the pub and you can spot them quietly talking amongst themselves. But watch the feet, tapping a way in time to the tunes. Some may well clap and shower the sessioneers with drinks by way of appreciation for a favorite tune thats been played or a tune that was particularly enjoyed (especially in locations where the regular pub goers are familiar with the music). Where drink has been consumed in volume it's always possible, in fact probable, that the main parties guilty of performance are in fact the regulars.
I think what Im trying to say is that clapping on the part of the punters doesn't necessarily = performance on the part of the sessioneers.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Thanks Dow. I understood your point. I was really offering an example for analysis. People sitting out a tune often do that and I watched the clip having just read through this thread.
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Based on the original post and the title, I'm fairly sure that this thread is about the etiquette article and the ideas contained within, despite any and all hijacks to the contrary about festivals or performances.
I do have one very sincere request on behalf of all working musicians trying to make some scratch with their talents:
Please STOP performing without getting paid. Thank you most kindly.
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<<We solved this one last time. I think we came to the conclusion that it's people's definitions of "session" that are probably different, rather than their definition of "performance". >>
Ahh , no we didnt! A session is a bunch of folk sitting round playing music. Thats about as simple a definition as you can get. Any disagreements?
A performance, now thats where the disagreements come to the fore. What is a performance? look it up in the dictionary.....
Clapping, according to Dr Eric Berne founder of transactional analysis, is a symbolic congratulatory 'patting of the back. '
His work is very interesting and I recommend his books; the games people play' , ' Beyond games and scripts'. Very informative and a highly perceptive thinker. Once you've read his work you will never look at the mustard board the same again!
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Right, Hacker... a 'performance', as it relates to music according to the dictionary, is people playing and people listening... something that happens at sessions. Concerts are clearly staged and rehearsed according to definition... something you won't find at a session.
I'm amazed to hear Dow speak of Martin the way he does. In that video, it's a session in Feakle in Pepper's Pub... well established session pub not far from Martin's home. That's a great session, and there might very well have been clapping after every set. That doesn't mean it's not a session, Dow, you only wish you could participate in great sessions like that one. The session dogma you profess in this forum makes me wonder if you even enjoy your own regular sessions. They don't sound very fun if everyone sits around afraid to spoil everything by clapping or something horrible like that.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Funny you should say that, PB. I think that just about sums it all up for me. You want to chase all the best sessions in Ireland and "perform" with all the great players. Me, I'm more than happy playing with my friends in the pub in Sydney where I live. In fact, there's nobody I'd rather play with than the people I've been playing with for years, because I know their style and nuances in their music, I know what tunes they like to play, and I'm interested in catching up on all their gossip etc. And as it happens, I much prefer their playing than any of those musicians in the video, not least Martin Hayes (read into that that they're "better", if you must).
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
What interests me is where the dividing line between session and concert is. Say you have a bunch of folk from the session up on stage; Nothing rehearsed, no actions different from those in the session, so its a session, that is also a concert! Of course artificial dividing lines are just that; artificial. What matters is the underlying reason WHY people want to distinguish between session/performance/concert.
This I feel is the crux of the matter, and is completely understandable; We dont want to be there as a show, monkeys playing in a cage for an audience. Thats not what communal music making is about and unfortunately often that IS the way we are seen, unavoidable. So we make these artificial dividing lines not for ourselves, but for the listeners. So they understand we are not a feckin spectacle, a bunch of folk trying their best to amuse an audience for a pittance of a pay. We just play music cos we love it, if you do to great, if not tough, pull a fire alarm or something!
But you tell the young folk that and they dont believe you!
"So, the success of a large session depends more on social awareness than technical skill. If you’re a leader, remember to find the balance between keeping the engine room rocking along and completely disregarding the outer ranks, between staying in the groove and letting tempos drag or race out of hand, between splashy tunes and the old favorites. If you’re a beginner or intermediate, remember that everyone in that center seat where you want to be was once a beginner, too, and use it as inspiration to do the work it takes to get there."
The 1st time I read through Erin's thread I couldn't help but wonder how much the music camp seems to have changed since I was last there.
Sorry I didn't post this sooner. It is something I thought of as I was reading Erin's comments about sessions ~ not the etiquette aspect so much as the way the way they form. In my head it brought back the Jerry Holland interview, in which he discusses differences & similarities between Irish & Cape Breton sessions;
An Interview With Jerry Holland
Excerpts from Fiddler Magazine, Vol.6 No.4. http://www.jerryholland.com/frame-press.htm#Interview
Here is the teaser quote,
"Well, as you know, there are two different definitions of the word session ... here in Cape Breton, versus in Ireland."
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I find it amazing how Dow seems to need to some how put down people, their sessions, and their reason for playing Irish music to support his point of view.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
But Random, that quote is fine, but people aren't necessarily kept out of the center because they can't play. I've seen people deliberately excluded from the "inner circle" who can play as well as people in the center. My point is that whether you're in a large room or a small room, people, as well as capable players who have also "earned their way," are still excluded sometimes. In the case of the small room it's physical limitations, and in the large room it's political perhaps... I'm not sure, but at the end of the day a session is a session regardless of the size of the room, and people are people.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Sorry, I should have been more specific. After reading Random's next post... I realized I should point out I was addressing his quote from Erin's article in my last post and not Jerry Holland's.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Ah give the guy a break! Its a standard debating technique on this forum . I agree I think its a shame that people attempt to put others down to bolster their own opinions and argument, but unless the general consensus is that this is not acceptable then its fair enough if someone does it.
There is a cyclical myth making machine here at work and its pretty transparent. If someone argues against a consensus of opinion then they are belittled. When rational argument is abandoned in favour of insults and petty digs then its an admission of failure. Of course people who do this rarely even recognise their own behaviour. Its more about saving face than facing facts. Rather than accept that we all have a right to our own viewpoint they get desperate and start effing and blinding supporting each other in their collective Delusion. IMO Dow is a great contributor and if by some slip he has done as you say, well we all make mistakes, lets move on.
We all have our reasons for playing the music and none are right or wrong. Its a very personal thing. Trying to elevate one particular view point over others is fruitless because its bound to fail. Without a sturdy broad base in reality any such behaviour is bound to fail eventually. Its only a matter of time. Rather than put each other down lets uplift each other, support and facilitate communal learning. None of us are perfect and its good to remember that.
The topic obviously touches on 'sore points' and we all have our own understanding of what sessions are and perhaps 'should be'. Erin makes many valid points about social interactions. The fact is that its simply not possible to control other people without their active participation and there is little point in trying. Let us be ourselves and you be yourself., perhaps we wont get on, but at least we are being true to ourselves.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
The specific quote of Erin's which I gave does not mention the form of exclusion which you (Phantom Button) refer to & which she mentions elsewhere in the blog. Between this thread & her blog it's fairly clear ~ IMHO. I cannot speak for how sessions currently function at Lark camp, as I have not been there in several years. What I hope Erin is offering, in the quote, is a means to find a balance within any given session. I cannot speak for Ms. Shrader. As for my own understanding of what you are saying, Jack, I did read what you posted earlier, "As I pointed out, I find the big session inner and outer circle sessions to feature their own form of exclusion, but there has been some of the best music coming out of those sessions too. It's all good, and there should be room for all sorts of session location, sizes, styles. And that's one of the great features of LC--there IS room for everything."
Have a good Lark Camp everyone! ;)
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
"If you'd care to read my comments for what they say - nothing more and nothing less - you'll see that I don't have a problem with clapping per se, but clapping after every set. Clapping after every set alters the whole feel of a session and changes the sociological setup and interrelationships between the participants. Clapping along to tunes alters it even more - especially since your average punter is unable to clap along to reels because they don't get the whole thing of backbeat and drive"
Well how nice of you. You go to a pub, get free beer for playing (if you have any sense), then pontificate about who claps and how often and what they do and don't "get." You know, those poor people who have gone to the pub for a night out with a bit of atmosphere, paying God knows what for every drink they drink. I might suggest that you confine your playing to you and your elitist mates in your kitchen from now on. Guaranteed insulation from those irritating clapping punters!
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I have been reading through the all time biggest discussions from the archives. Anyone remember (or still trying to forget) which one had nearly 1,000 hits (994)? No worries, it's not relevant here. I did, however, enjoy the following comment, from a relatively small, though sizeable discussion & thought it worth linking in "The Hunt For ___" thread;
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7902
Zina Lee posts this,"The question is not actually a logical one, so there cannot be a good answer. There's no such thing as "too" much session etiquette, only what works for a session or any given group of people. It's like being pregnant; either you are or you aren't."
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Belittling other people's sessions, PB? You mean like this "The session dogma you profess in this forum makes me wonder if you even enjoy your own regular sessions. __They don't sound very fun__ if everyone sits around afraid to spoil everything by clapping or something horrible like that". Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, lol.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That was in response to you putting Martin Hayes down, using the term 'perform' like a four-letter-word to insult him, and then belittle the participants and people present at that session, Dow. And I knew you would pull that quote out and try to use it to further your attacks. But all anyone has to do is review your comments on this thread and it becomes painfully clear that you find it necessary to put other people down to promote your own POV. I really wish you could find it in yourself to find a better and more positive MO.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
DOW: "He's (the box player clapping in the video) showing his appreciation for the other musicians. If he looks at Martin Hayes and claps at him after every set then, whether he realises it or not, he's acknowledging that MH is performing for him, which he probably is - Martin Hayes is a performer. If the onlookers clap after every set then, yeah, I'd say it's more of a performance than a session, but I'm sure MH would be fine with that. I'd rather hear people chatting and glasses clinking, that sort of stuff. Like I said, everyone has different ideas about what a session is."
Dow, you already made it clear in this thread how you think people who 'perform' aren't having proper sessions thus putting down the session in that video.
DOW: "I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions"
Dow, you have also made it clear that anyone who 'performs' according to you own personal derogatory definition, isn't capable of playing in what you have deemed a "real session."
DOW: "Martin Hayes is a performer. If the onlookers clap after every set then, yeah, I'd say it's more of a performance than a session, but I'm sure MH would be fine with that."
Why would Martin be 'fine with that'? Because you have lowered him to fit your personal distinction for 'performer.' Do you even realize how pompous and arrogant this is? And where do you get off thinking you can dismiss the session in that video as somehow improper?
Then you turn your venom on me saying, "You want to chase all the best sessions in Ireland and "perform" with all the great players."
You have no idea what compels me to play Irish music or visit Ireland, yet you're pompous enough to insinuate I am on account of these motives you have assigned to me as being beneath your understanding or being capable of having the true and deeper understanding of real sessions that you possess. Honestly, Dow.
Then you place yourself and your session mates above the level of Martin Hayes and that session at Peppers in the video proclaiming: "I much prefer their playing (your session mates) than any of those musicians in the video, not least Martin Hayes (read into that that they're "better", if you must)."
So don't think you haven't made you position absolutely clear... you aren't fooling anyone, Dow. People in this forum like you, your wit and your opinions, Dow, but I don't think you're doing yourself any service by putting other people down to promote your POV.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Jack, I don't think you're doing yourself any favours by misreading my comments, and, just as I predicted, reading into my comment that I thought my session mates are "better". God you're so predictable. It's like talking to a robot who churns out the same responses on every thread.
Also I never said that that session in the video wasn't a session. Again, you haven't read my comments properly, and you're superimposing your own warped logic and prejudices onto my comments, taking them out of context. What I actually said was that, IF THE BOX PLAYER CLAPS MARTIN HAYES AFTER EVERY SET AND THE ONLOOKERS CLAP AFTER EVERY SET THEN IT'S MORE OF A MARTIN HAYES PERFORMANCE. We have no more footage of that session, so we can't know what the box player and onlookers do after subsequent sets. All I'm saying is that, IN MY OPINION, if that happened and they all clapped him after every set then it'd be more towards a performance than a session. Haven't you ever been in a session where a player has dominated and the whole thing's become a bit of a one-man show? I'm not saying it would necessarily happen in MH's case, I'm just using it as an example of session versus performance.
Aside from that, Jack, since when did you have a problem with calling a session a performance? Why does it bother you that I call Martin Hayes a "performer" and point out how the session in the video could become a "performance". I thought you were of the view that ALL sessions were performances? Or are you just very confused?
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
PS why is it wrong to like my friends' playing more than the musicians in that video? It's not about them being better musicians, it's just my personal preference - my opinion... I like my friends' playing. Sorry, but give me one reason why I'm not entitled to enjoy playing with my friends and prefer their playing to that of well-known musicians. Please tell me, because I really can't understand your take on that one. Or should I stop enjoying my friends' playing because some random person on the internet told me I shouldn't? That's just so strange to me...
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Dow... I'll just point out one of your contradictions and leave you to find the rest.
"Also I never said that that session in the video wasn't a session."
DOW: "I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions"
Dow writes: "why does it bother you that I call Martin Hayes a 'performer'?"
Your definition has always portrayed the word as being beneath what happens in a session. My definition is more in line with the actual meaning which has nothing to do with sessions and only refers to the act of playing music.
Anyway, Dow, I'm not really qualified to be your psychotherapist so I'm done here and I hope you can sort this out somehow and perhaps develop a more positive approach to expressing your POV.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Jack that's really rude of you to quote me out of context and misrepresent my comments like that, as you continue to do. Let's just look at my comment again:
"I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions."
Now, when I said that, I was NOT talking about the video. In fact, I posted that comment long before a link to the video appeared in this thread. Yet again, you use underhand tactics to put me in a bad light. I hope that anyone reading this will be able to see how cleverly you've cherry-picked my comments so that you can create straw man arguments, throwing vicious king hits at something that isn't there.
See, when you look at the original quote in its sentential environment, it comes across quite differently. Look:
"Some people see sessions as being more like gigs where you have really tight music that's basically a bunch of arranged sets played by a band, and there's an audience in the pub who clap after every set and stuff. I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions which are simply the sharing of tunes between musicians."
See? I was talking about bands playing a bunch of tightly arranged sets. Nothing like what was in the video.
As to my definition of "performer": you say I have "always portrayed the word as being beneath what happens in a session. Really? Beneath??! There is nothing wrong with performing music in concert or busking or whatever. All I've ever said was that act of "performing", in MY OPINION, is a sociologically and psychologically different act to what goes on in what I, personally, consider to be a session. Not beneath; just different. Like I said right from the start, we all have different views on what a session is. I've given mine. You've, well, not really given yours, you've just spent your time attacking me, but never mind, we all know yours anyway. It's okay to have a different opinion, Jack, really. I don't mind if you disagree with me, and in fact I welcome it, but pulling my comments out of context like that is just plain nasty. You're blowing smoke, mate.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
IMHO Dow is not putting down Martin Hayes in the least. Quite the opposite. Martin Hayes, as I am sure Mark & Jack will agree, {not witholding semantics} is capable of putting on a show or contributing to a session. Now whether he, or anyone, can or should do both at once is another matter.
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Folks, this is your session.org sports reporter Buster Bodhran reporting on the scene from this knock down, drag out classic fight between two veteran heavyweights. It's been a mighty battle, both parties are bruised and battered, yet still stand tall. Truly, it's been a classic fight in the grand tradition we're used to, no holds barred over a timeless and perennial topic. Looks like the judges are going to have to call it a draw. No clear winner but a bought for the ages! Thanks to both competitors for coming out of retirement and showing their skills to a whole new crop of mustardonians!
This is Buster Bodhran, signing off. Remember to keep your trousers pressed and your wig glue fastened! So long folks!
I have attended Lark Camp 3 times, in the past, & am glad to hear it is still a wonderful experience in a beautiful place. I hope everyone going this year enjoys their experience & the people you find to make music with.
FWIW, I have found a good comment above. This is one way in which I would enjoy seeing our forum move, "The discussion about session size is the issue Erin addresses in her article. I was directed to her article when the concept of context was introduced in response to my point about the word choice. This is where I think the discussion has any real interest; most people in this forum have attended large sessions at music camps and festivals and might find it interesting and/or have comments to add."
Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Yes, the subject has certainly been given plenty of air time here and elsewhere, but I like the succinctness of this excerpt from Erin Shrader’s advice to those planning to attend Lark Camp:
A session is not the same as a performance. What makes a session exciting is a sense of togetherness. Tempos can be high, depending on the overall ability of the crowd, but the lightning speed found in today’s virtuoso recordings just leaves too many on the wayside. A variety of tempos throughout the evening—some blazing, some groovy, some dreamy, some just rocking along—lets the mood shift and allows more space to come up with variations. Save the blistering tempos for performance or the most exclusive sessions.
Likewise, if you’re not up to the level of play, whatever that is, resist the temptation to bring the session down to your ability level by starting a lot of tunes within your grasp. If you notice that the players you really admire aren’t quite meeting your eye, that might be the reason why. This seems to happen more and more and it’s counterproductive. The exciting players will retreat to the smallest room they can find and stay there. You’ll improve faster if you let the level of the session stay high and keep reaching for it. Organize a slow session for another time.
Repertoire is important. Every musical community has a common repertoire and there’s a reason those tunes have remained popular for generations—they’re good. There’s always an unspoken challenge—show off your insider status by starting the most exclusive new tunes. But a string of these will kill a session. Occasional solos are welcome throughout the night, but you’ll be better remembered for the one sparkling gem, especially if you slide gracefully into an old favorite that everyone can join, giving the whole room a lift. That’s a thrill you can’t have any other way, and you’ll be known for your obscure tunes and gracious ways.
See the entire entry here:
http://allthingsstrings.ning.com/profiles/blogs/plays-well-with-others
# Posted on April 30th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Good stuff. I am definately one of those players who does't get nearly enough opportunities to join a session, and my skill level is always in the bottom rung. I enjoy playing the few tunes I know well enough to join in, but other than that I stay out of it out of respect to the session and not wanting to bring it down. I have no problem spending 90% of my time sitting, sipping, and listening, and apparently neither do they. Luckily there's not premium on space, so I'm sure that's a factor. I think part of session etiquette is simply being happy with not playing the majority of sets. If you think playing every set is a very important part of it, then I think you are missing the point.
# Posted on April 30th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Sage advice.
# Posted on April 30th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Definitely.
# Posted on April 30th 2010 by gam
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Works for me
# Posted on April 30th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That's probably the most sensible summary of session 'etiquette' I've read yet. 'Etiquette' in quotes, because it doesn't lay out a contrived set of rules, but merely states observations on human interactions.
# Posted on April 30th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
...The eyes not meeting is a particularly familiar phenomenon - I've been on both sides
# Posted on April 30th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I might just paste this in my fiddle case, for those times that I get too big for my britches.
Erin is a delightful human bean as well as a wonderful fiddle player.
# Posted on April 30th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I like the whole thing except she never defined what she meant by 'performance' or how and why is session is not the same. I looked up 'performance' and, as it relates to music, it indicates there is a person playing and others are listening. Perhaps she means that everyone is expected to be playing and that's what makes it not a 'performance' since there would be no listeners, but then she discusses occasions within a session where only one or a few are playing which would make the others present listeners... hence a 'performance' according to definition... unless the ones listening are expected to ignore the ones playing, but she hadn't indicated that either. So it's just a bit confusing in the first sentence. Maybe 'formal performance' or 'staged performance' might have been more clear.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Further Clues
A session is not a performance, in the traditional sense.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
Actually, that's not the 1st sentence which Erin wrote (see link). oldstrings gave us an excerpt. IMHO it is not confusing, at all, if you read everything she posted on the blog. Thanks Erin!
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Good advice here. For me, a perfect evening involves some time just listening. If everyone knows the same tunes, and everyone plays at the same level, things can get boring. Too many people seem to think that if everyone isn't participating at every moment, the session is not going well. But nothing could be further from the truth. And the last thing I would want to do is begrudge some outstanding player a chance to play to the best of their potential.
In a performance, some people are players and some are listeners. In a session, those borders blur, as people drop in and out, and sometimes the whole pub could join in on a chorus. The line between 'performer' and 'audience' disappears.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by AlBrown
Spot on, Al!
Have a good night, everyone. I'm going to blur some lines.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Random... I see no definition for the use of the word other than saying it isn't whatever a 'performance' is. Please show me where this is clarified.
From Erin's article:
"The real heart of Lark camp is not performance or even the classes that fill the daytime hours—it’s social music making, especially the Irish session, since Irish musicians outnumber all others."
"A session is not the same as a performance."
"Save the blistering tempos for performance or the most exclusive sessions."
The only possible distinction is calling it "social music making," but this still leaves a lot of room for clarity since most of the 'social music making' around Lark Camp includes both players and listeners, and often even occurs as a, 'staged or formal performance' organized in advance to be performed before a seated audience who came specifically to listen. Do you mean that her last reference defines "blistering tempos" as a "performance"?
All I'm saying is the word was used presumptively and without clarification. It has little to do with her overall message, but since this word has been previously presented in this forum this way, I am pointing it out in isolation with my previous post.
~~~
As far as her article goes, I have been a Lark Camp regular since 1982 and have also been a witness and participant in the Irish music scene. I realize that the sessions have evolved along with the change in personalities who participate and the general state of Irish music making among the players. Many or even most of the players from the early days have since moved on and/or are involved in other music genres around camp, and only show up occasionally... if at all. The result, when you consider an influx of amazing younger newcomers, is that the sessions themselves will naturally experience change. I think there's very little that can be done about this since everyone is there for their enjoyment and they seek whatever works for them. If that means they tuck themselves away in a small room to control the size of the session... so be it. Do I like to be shut out of a session? No, but on the other hand I can see why they might choose to do what they do. Erin successfully illustrates the tendencies of the larger old-style Lark Sessions that sometimes drag down the level of the playing with poor session etiquette she describes. I think if people followed her advice we might see less of the smaller sessions that may or may not be a response to the larger sessions, but I still maintain that a session is whatever the people having it want it to be, and it's the choice of participants as to whether they think they can or are capable of contributing or not.
Having said that... the larger old-style sessions Erin refers to can be just as exclusive at times. I've seen sessions where the few who "earned our way from the outer ranks to take turns in the center" have been very exclusive as well regarding who they choose to make room for in that center circle. This ends up having the same effect since proximity to the center is where tune choices are made and the chosen session style emulates, and the further you are away the more remote and left out you feel. This might also be something that drives players into other smaller rooms around the camp.
So to conclude, and as Erin points out, "there is a time and a place for both." I think there should be room for any and all session styles and preferences around camp to insure everyone has a good time.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Attaboy, PB, this was going MUCH too smoothly for my liking! That which initially looks like a near-perfect guide should encourage all manner of doubts and fears.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Oldstrings, am I being criticized by you for commenting on the article and post? I have attacked no one... I haven't called anyone names... please tell me specifically what it is about my comments you object to.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Looking at it again, Oldstrings, perhaps there is no criticism in your post. I peeked in quickly while I was cooking dinner and responded hastily.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Al writes: "In a performance, some people are players and some are listeners. In a session, those borders blur, as people drop in and out, and sometimes the whole pub could join in on a chorus. The line between 'performer' and 'audience' disappears."
So any concert is no longer a performance if the audience joins in on a chorus? That really doesn't clarify it for me. I think if she would have said, "A session is not the same as a concert" it might be more clear. Concerts are clearly something organized, usually in advance, and are indicated with a price for admission, etc. I would never call a session a 'concert.'
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
You've attacked no-one, PB. And yet your posts here are enough probably to scupper any reasonable discussion of what is a helpful quote. And I think you know that.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
It looks like oldstrings is just commenting on how well you're performing your function.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by leoj
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Interesting opinion, ethical, but unsubstantiated unless you can demonstrate how anything I've said has ruined the discussion. I have only added my comments on both the post and the article. Please edify us.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
PB, if you have to ask the question, you won't understand the answer. Or else you already do and are being deliberately obtuse.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by sergeant fox
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I didn't say "ruined". I said "scupper". Time will tell whether I am right on that.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Ok so no one can demonstrate how I have done what they are accusing me of--all I've done is to comment on this post and on the article it was sourced from. Errant and baseless accusations don't interest me, but If you have anything that relates to what I've actually said I'll be interested to hear it.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Ethical, if anyone is 'scuppering' the discussion it is the people who are attacking me for simply commenting on this thread. Why not try actually responding to the points I raised instead?
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
unbelievable
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by bogman
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Ahh so lads, an alternative viewpoint;'' scupper any reasonable discussion of what is a helpful quote'' So Perhaps you might explain that?
Just because you, or I, do not see things as others do, or disagree with a concept you believe in , is simply a fact of life and 'viva la differance'.
Discussions thrive on alternative viewpoints. Yes her points re sessions are spot on, so? What kind of discussion do you get when everyone agrees?
I think PB's point here;
"A session is not the same as a concert" it might be more clear. Concerts are clearly something organized, usually in advance, and are indicated with a price for admission, etc. I would never call a session a 'concert.'
Is very valid and does not rely on redifining a word to suit your belief system.
But just supposing this subject didnt get raised what do you wish to discuss about what she said? just carry on.... You are free to respond to PB's points, or not. There is no obligation on you to respond or take on board anyone elses input or understanding, feel free to ignore unwelcome ideas.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
This is one of thse times when I just hate being proved right. A certain inevitability, I suppose.
Well, there are other discussions ...
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Thread hijack. The thread is about this particular person's view of session etiquette as so published on teh innarwebz.
Taking one piece of it and turning the thread into a discussion of that one piece is a thread hijack. If we 'need' to flog the 'Is a Session a Performance?" routine yet again we should start a new thread, I feel.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That being said, there is excellent advice in this article, especially for those running sessions from the inner core:
"...If you’re a leader, remember to find the balance between keeping the engine room rocking along and completely disregarding the outer ranks, between staying in the groove and letting tempos drag or race out of hand, between splashy tunes and the old favorites..."
"...And if there are singers in the room, don’t forget to ask them for the occasional song..."
Well, except for that last one, maybe that's not the best advice. It should have an amendment: "...ask the singers for a song, as long as you've pre-cleared them and you know you're not in for something truly awful."
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Further good quotes from Erin's article:
"...There’s always an unspoken challenge—show off your insider status by starting the most exclusive new tunes. But a string of these will kill a session. Occasional solos are welcome throughout the night, but you’ll be better remembered for the one sparkling gem, especially if you slide gracefully into an old favorite that everyone can join, giving the whole room a lift..."
Sage indeed.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I realize I'm just rehashing the original post with these quotes, but think of it as highlighting, I guess.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Its not possible to 'pre-clear' any new musicians who come in hopeing to sing or play a few tunes. This is why some folk resort to closed sessions, or small rooms. So that their 'session experirence' is not dominated or ruined by clueless newcomers. Its also not just folk who cant/play , folk who play well enough but with a severly limited repertoir can also cause session death!. Every time the set ends they start up the boys of blue hill in a stilted fashion , or some such other tune.
Personally I feel its myths like' the session is not a performance' and other myths like ' sessions are all inclusive' etc that create these unrealistic expectations in folk new to the music. So the good players who just want to play a few tunes that interest them, with a few folk that they enjoy playing with, get labled 'snobs', eltiists etc etc.
Every session is different. Every player has their own 'agenda'
Size is also a crucial aspect of a session. These mass sessions may be fun, to some, but we dont all enjoy them and we have a right to play in , and organise , sessions we enjoy.
IMO there should be many more sessions, so that everyone is catered for. House sessions, kitchin sessions, staged sessions, concert sessions, Kitchin sessions , fireside sessions, singing sessions, mixed sessions, strictly tune sessions, strictly irish sessions, loose informal sessions, anything goes sessions, bluegrass/greengrass sessions, etc etc etc. Too many expectations, often unrealistic, do not for a good session make. IMO
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Yes, it is possible. I do it all the time.
I was talking about songs and and singers. If someone asks to sing a song at our session and I don't know them, I will talk to them first. If it's some drunken yabo who wants to holler The Wild Rover, then no. If it's some sweet little old lady, I may let her sing whatever she wants.
So yes, it is possible to pre-clear singers, unless you don't want to.
Tunes are a different matter. Howdy stranger, you play tunes? Fair play, more power to ya. Start us up a set.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
...and expectations too. Novices should have the proper expectation and not expect a slow session just for them. At the same time, those running an open session should not turn it into a closed one on a whim. Give and take. Common sense goes a long way. Too bad it's so uncommon.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I like that idea, for us generally its a bunch round a table, a set finishes and someone starts a song, or asks' can i start a song'. There is little oportunity to get up and vet em! different sessions/places...
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I think it's a part of running an open session, versus a closed one. Open, yes, but open with the limits of the tradition and good taste!
Those are probably poor terms as they imply things that aren't meant. Open incorrectly meaning "Hey dudes, can I jam with you? Is it open mike night?" and closed incorrectly meaning "We're all snobs, go away."
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
"Oldstrings, am I being criticized by you for commenting on the article and post? I have attacked no one... I haven't called anyone names... please tell me specifically what it is about my comments you object to."
"It looks like oldstrings is just commenting on how well you're performing your function.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by leoj"
I assure you, Phantom Button, there was no sarcasm implied!
I simply meant that there was only polite agreement until you opened up some fresh thoughts.
*Note to self: try to be more lucid...*
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Yes, Oldstrings, I realized that after dinner when I came back and gave myself time to digest what you were saying.
Actually, my point about replacing the word 'performance' with the word 'concert' in order to be more clear is a minor point to the actual discussion that has ensued. The actual discussion here is regarding session size and limits in relation to being exclusive/inclusive. As I said, I agree with everything Erin said about session etiquette, but I happen to know first hand what the context is behind her article is. For anyone who read her article in its entirety, I'll explain what has transpired over the last couple of years at Lark Camp.
A mini controversy has emerged at Lark Camp regarding session size and location. I don't think it's any different from the sort of thing that happens at any music camp where there are Irish sessions, but in this case it regards the difference between locating in a large or small room.
The layout of the space where most Irish sessions at LC take place is situated in and around a rustic kitchen and dining complex that includes a kitchen, serving area, two dining halls, a front porch, 2 side areas outside, and various storage rooms.
Traditionally the Irish sessions were held in the serving room or dining halls primarily and could expand to include up to around 20 to 30 people or so. (Erin describes these sessions as 'engines' with inner and outer circles.)
Then in the last 3 years an influx of young amazing players showed up on the scene and, as many of us regulars there already had, found the big sessions were fun, but also longed for intimate sessions where only a half dozen or so are playing. Also, sometimes the big sessions were cumbersome, as Erin also describes, especially when there was a predominance of sloppy session etiquette that sometimes was more common than not. (I've seen the same complaints about other music school and festival sessions in this forum.)
Anyway... a few of the new hot players discovered that one of the storage rooms could be a good location for a session with the added feature of physically limiting the size of the session. These sessions are great fun if you happen to land in them, but frustrating as you stood outside listening to all of your favorite tunes flying by and seeing no way to find a spot to join in. But the music coming out of that storage room is some of the best Irish music I've heard at LC and I wouldn't want to stop or discourage that in any way.
As I pointed out, I find the big session inner and outer circle sessions to feature their own form of exclusion, but there has been some of the best music coming out of those sessions too. It's all good, and there should be room for all sorts of session location, sizes, styles. And that's one of the great features of LC--there IS room for everything.
Unfortunately there was some grumbling about the storage room sessions that were a little unfair since the big sessions featured their own brand of exclusion that nothing could be done about. But it was minor and the sessions at LC have been as good as ever the last few years.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
This is before I have read PB's last post ~
Dear Mr. Gilder,
My humble apologies for not responding earlier. I logged off last night after my last post.
Phanthom Button: "Random... I see no definition for the use of the word (performance) other than saying it isn't whatever a 'performance' is. Please show me where this is clarified."
The blog does not provide a definition for the word, performance. If you are looking for a single point of distinction between what a session is & a performance is not, I do not know that there is one. Erin's blog says much about how various Irish musicians view sessions & how those sessions vary. So, how is *performance* not the real heart of Lark camp? When one goes to the music camp there is alot to see. It is possible to simply enjoy the spectacle, as an onlooker, & never engage with a single living person. This is something akin to *watching* the performance. It is a sight to see. And there are onlookers. But to do this is to miss out on the full depth of what you might hear if you listen, what you may learn if you join in on the social music making. Or to put it simply, at least in my humble opinion, once you session with others you are no longer merely watching the performance ~ even if this is only to close your eyes & listen.
"The real heart of Lark camp is not performance or even the classes that fill the daytime hours—it’s social music making . . . "
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Ben Steen
Clarification
So why ask what the definition of performance is if there is an issue with the size & setting of sessions? It seems like a red herring.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
My comment about suggesting the replacement of the word 'performance' with the word 'concert' was merely that-- a suggestion. Why? For better clarity. The discussion about session size is the issue Erin addresses in her article. I was directed to her article when the concept of context was introduced in response to my point about the word choice. This is where I think the discussion has any real interest; most people in this forum have attended large sessions at music camps and festivals and might find it interesting and/or have comments to add.
How about you, Random, have you been to Lark or other music schools and camps where there are big sessions like what Erin describes? Perhaps you have something to add on that topic.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Phantom Button
Lark Music Camp
It has been years since I have been to Lark music camp. There is plenty of room outside, however, to strike up a session. For me the only real issue is staying warm on a cold night.
I have little to add aside from what has already been said by Erin & Al Brown.
# Posted on May 1st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I just received an email regarding my comments on this thread. If anyone has been put off by my posts I want to assure you I intend no offense toward anyone who has commented on this thread. Quite the contrary ~ it is a grand discussion.
Ben
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
If you said anything offensive, Random, I certainly missed it!
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
You have made no offensive comments, Random, but you do have a confrontational tone in your first few posts directed at me and you called my point a 'red herring'. I am not about to confront you with your public attack on my personal opinion... you can take it or leave it... I have no interest in getting into fights with you or anyone else in this forum. What I enjoy is sharing opinions and responding to ideas presented here.
As for my first point in this thread, I'm still not convinced any definition of what a 'performance' is in the article despite your explanation, and I still think 'concert' might have been more clear in the first sentence of what was posted at the beginning of this thread.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Jack, I agreed that the blog does not provide a definition for the word, performance. My 1st post & all subsequent comments were intended as clarification. As for the red herring comment it was due to the fact that I was focused on a term used by Ms. Shrader & perhaps my energies may have been better spent elsewhere. If you were not leading us astray I thank you for that.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
How could I possibly have been leading you astray? I was commenting on what was quoted at the beginning of the thread? What amazes me is that my comment was a minor point and I was basically agreeing with everything Erin said... yet you are still talking about it. I think the discussion got interesting when we were directed to the article the quote comes from and started looking at the dynamics of sessions at music camps and festivals. Far more interesting than my first point.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That is the best news ever to hear that your comment was a minor point. I honestly do not think my 2nd comment could be construed as confrontational;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24493/comments#comment511220
It was in fact directing you to the article.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Phantom Button, Well, I guess if we need to go down that road again, lets go down it. To be blunt, I feel like you see confrontational tones any time anyone uses the word 'performance' in a different sense than the definition you prefer. Certainly, you seem to feel you must confront anyone who uses the word in a way you dislike. We have established the different shades of interpretation of the word in many threads and many discussions. You use the word a bit differently than some of the others who post on this website--we know that, and we don't need you dragging out the dictionary anytime anyone uses it in a context that you dislike. Many people who use the word 'performance' use it in the sense that you refer to above as 'formal performance' or 'staged performance,' not in the broader sense that you prefer. That is their perogative, it is a big world, and lots of people use lots of words that have lots of definitions in lots of different ways. Please, give it a rest...
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Wow... and now Al insists on going on about it... amazing. Talk about leading the discussion astray... Random... where is your concern about this now? Will you be taking Al to task for what you accused me of?
Random... if you review the thread you'll see that my first point was being attacked and you joined in calling it a 'red herring'. I agree that your drawing attention to the article where the quote originated helped move the discussion forward in a positive direction, but I'm amazed how you guys are so insistent on picking a fight with me simply because I suggested that the word 'performance' was a bit ambiguous and could be replaced with the word 'concert' for a little more clarity. Think about this fellas... are you really serious about picking a fight over this? I'm not. I'd prefer to discuss the topic that the discussion took resulting from examining the article. Far more interesting... can we do that instead please?
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Thanks Al, but I think finding out that Jack considers this a minor issue is reassuring. The more important part of this discussion was well presented when Phantom Button went into detail about how sessions, at the music camp, have evolved over the past few years. Nothing to loose sleep over here.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
Cross posted. For the record though, I won't be taking on anyone's opinion on the basis of what someone else expects of me.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
I like this;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24493/comments#comment511294
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
& this;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24493/comments#comment511223
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Phantom Button, you are a superb musician, better than I will ever be. And you are a valuable, and often witty, contributor to this website. But all this gets cheapened every time you react to the word 'performance' the way Ahab reacts to a report from the crosstrees that a white whale has been sighted. If this was the only time you jumped in to question someones usage of the word, that would be one thing, but it happens over and over. And the point of the discussion gets lost. If you think I am pulling the discussion off track, you are welcome to do so, and I will bow out...
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
NOTE TO FORUM: I tried to take this discussion off list and into private emails, but Al seems to want to maintain it as a public spectacle for some reason.
Al... I will always respond to ideas, comments, opinions, expressed in these forums when I have something to say. Keep in mind that it was not I who made a big deal about my first point, and I even characterized it as a 'minor point.' It was the people who can't let go of the word's infamy who have chosen to beat a dead horse. Long ago there was an attempt to reinvent the meaning of that word... and it failed because the definition says it all... full stop. I still think if it were replaced with 'concert' it would be more clear. This is just my opinion and a minor point in this thread. I was through with it when I hit 'post' after composing my first comment. Are you really going to dwell on it?
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
We solved this one last time. I think we came to the conclusion that it's people's definitions of "session" that are probably different, rather than their definition of "performance". Some people see sessions as being more like gigs where you have really tight music that's basically a bunch of arranged sets played by a band, and there's an audience in the pub who clap after every set and stuff. I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions which are simply the sharing of tunes between musicians, regardless of whether or not there's an audience there, and not a performance at all, any more than playing on your own at home is a performance. Trying to separate "session" and "concert" by pointing out that a concert is usually pre-arranged is also a bit odd. Plenty sessions are pre-arranged too.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Ah ... just read my e-mail. There must have been a few flying about then. All from one source, I guess ...
I like the Ahab thing, Al. Very apt.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Lol... if anyone happens to clap at your session then it isn't one... good one Dow,
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
On the contrary, if an onlooker claps, then it's their mistake. They've mistakenly thought that the session is a performance for them, which it isn't.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That's not to say that clapping is necessarily a bad thing. If someone wants to show their appreciation of the tunes that way then fine. But if they do it after every set, then the atmosphere created by the musicians has probably become one of "performance" rather than "session". That's just not what I enjoy when I go to the pub to play tunes. Maybe you do enjoy that, PB, cause that's what you're used to, and that's how your culture always treats music-making (think "American Idol"?) - each to his/her own.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Well, people sometimes clap at our sessions despite the fact we aren't playing pre-arranged sets as a band and there are between 5 to 15 musicians present who are trickling in and out. Punters can see it isn't a concert since we aren't on stage and we're sitting around a table with drinks in front of us... and talking and laughing between tunes. I think they can see that we're just performing tunes for each other's amusement and our own mutual enjoyment. But occasionally they really like the music that results and they are moved to express it. I don't consider that a mistake, and I certainly don't think their response disqualifies what we're doing as a 'session.'
(Ay chance we can move on now and get back on topic regarding large sessions and small sessions at music camps and festivals?)
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Can someone explain the hand movements of thebox player in the last couple of seconds of this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EelRwZM-MEw&feature=related (which the the subject of a nearby threasd)
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by David50
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
He's showing his appreciation for the other musicians. If he looks at Martin Hayes and claps at him after every set then, whether he realises it or not, he's acknowledging that MH is performing for him, which he probably is - Martin Hayes is a performer. If the onlookers clap after every set then, yeah, I'd say it's more of a performance than a session, but I'm sure MH would be fine with that. I'd rather hear people chatting and glasses clinking, that sort of stuff. Like I said, everyone has different ideas about what a session is.
If you'd care to read my comments for what they say - nothing more and nothing less - you'll see that I don't have a problem with clapping per se, but clapping after every set. Clapping after every set alters the whole feel of a session and changes the sociological setup and interrelationships between the participants. Clapping along to tunes alters it even more - especially since your average punter is unable to clap along to reels because they don't get the whole thing of backbeat and drive.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
It's quite simple.
A performance of a tune in a session is not a performance.
I can't for the life of me see why people don't understand that ....
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Bren
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
read:
http://www.mckenna.dk/sessionetikette.htm
http://www.mckenna.dk/sessionetikette2.htm
http://www.ceolupnorth.co.uk/etiquette.html
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by ceili
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
The clapping thing is a tricky one as the folk in the pub don't necessarily know what's expected of them....
Nothing, is the simple answer, but with people who've never experienced a pub where some informal music is happening, how they should behave seems to cause some confusion. I'm thinking holiday makers.
Some get tribal others clap some just look perplexed.
The locals for their part are well used to music in the pub and you can spot them quietly talking amongst themselves. But watch the feet, tapping a way in time to the tunes. Some may well clap and shower the sessioneers with drinks by way of appreciation for a favorite tune thats been played or a tune that was particularly enjoyed (especially in locations where the regular pub goers are familiar with the music). Where drink has been consumed in volume it's always possible, in fact probable, that the main parties guilty of performance are in fact the regulars.
I think what Im trying to say is that clapping on the part of the punters doesn't necessarily = performance on the part of the sessioneers.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Thanks Dow. I understood your point. I was really offering an example for analysis. People sitting out a tune often do that and I watched the clip having just read through this thread.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by David50
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Based on the original post and the title, I'm fairly sure that this thread is about the etiquette article and the ideas contained within, despite any and all hijacks to the contrary about festivals or performances.
I do have one very sincere request on behalf of all working musicians trying to make some scratch with their talents:
Please STOP performing without getting paid. Thank you most kindly.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
<<We solved this one last time. I think we came to the conclusion that it's people's definitions of "session" that are probably different, rather than their definition of "performance". >>
Ahh , no we didnt! A session is a bunch of folk sitting round playing music. Thats about as simple a definition as you can get. Any disagreements?
A performance, now thats where the disagreements come to the fore. What is a performance? look it up in the dictionary.....
Clapping, according to Dr Eric Berne founder of transactional analysis, is a symbolic congratulatory 'patting of the back. '
His work is very interesting and I recommend his books; the games people play' , ' Beyond games and scripts'. Very informative and a highly perceptive thinker. Once you've read his work you will never look at the mustard board the same again!
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Right, Hacker... a 'performance', as it relates to music according to the dictionary, is people playing and people listening... something that happens at sessions. Concerts are clearly staged and rehearsed according to definition... something you won't find at a session.
I'm amazed to hear Dow speak of Martin the way he does. In that video, it's a session in Feakle in Pepper's Pub... well established session pub not far from Martin's home. That's a great session, and there might very well have been clapping after every set. That doesn't mean it's not a session, Dow, you only wish you could participate in great sessions like that one. The session dogma you profess in this forum makes me wonder if you even enjoy your own regular sessions. They don't sound very fun if everyone sits around afraid to spoil everything by clapping or something horrible like that.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Funny you should say that, PB. I think that just about sums it all up for me. You want to chase all the best sessions in Ireland and "perform" with all the great players. Me, I'm more than happy playing with my friends in the pub in Sydney where I live. In fact, there's nobody I'd rather play with than the people I've been playing with for years, because I know their style and nuances in their music, I know what tunes they like to play, and I'm interested in catching up on all their gossip etc. And as it happens, I much prefer their playing than any of those musicians in the video, not least Martin Hayes (read into that that they're "better", if you must).
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
What interests me is where the dividing line between session and concert is. Say you have a bunch of folk from the session up on stage; Nothing rehearsed, no actions different from those in the session, so its a session, that is also a concert! Of course artificial dividing lines are just that; artificial. What matters is the underlying reason WHY people want to distinguish between session/performance/concert.
This I feel is the crux of the matter, and is completely understandable; We dont want to be there as a show, monkeys playing in a cage for an audience. Thats not what communal music making is about and unfortunately often that IS the way we are seen, unavoidable. So we make these artificial dividing lines not for ourselves, but for the listeners. So they understand we are not a feckin spectacle, a bunch of folk trying their best to amuse an audience for a pittance of a pay. We just play music cos we love it, if you do to great, if not tough, pull a fire alarm or something!
But you tell the young folk that and they dont believe you!
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Spot on Ms. Shrader ~
"So, the success of a large session depends more on social awareness than technical skill. If you’re a leader, remember to find the balance between keeping the engine room rocking along and completely disregarding the outer ranks, between staying in the groove and letting tempos drag or race out of hand, between splashy tunes and the old favorites. If you’re a beginner or intermediate, remember that everyone in that center seat where you want to be was once a beginner, too, and use it as inspiration to do the work it takes to get there."
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
~
The 1st time I read through Erin's thread I couldn't help but wonder how much the music camp seems to have changed since I was last there.
Sorry I didn't post this sooner. It is something I thought of as I was reading Erin's comments about sessions ~ not the etiquette aspect so much as the way the way they form. In my head it brought back the Jerry Holland interview, in which he discusses differences & similarities between Irish & Cape Breton sessions;
An Interview With Jerry Holland
Excerpts from Fiddler Magazine, Vol.6 No.4.
http://www.jerryholland.com/frame-press.htm#Interview
Here is the teaser quote,
"Well, as you know, there are two different definitions of the word session ... here in Cape Breton, versus in Ireland."
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I find it amazing how Dow seems to need to some how put down people, their sessions, and their reason for playing Irish music to support his point of view.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
But Random, that quote is fine, but people aren't necessarily kept out of the center because they can't play. I've seen people deliberately excluded from the "inner circle" who can play as well as people in the center. My point is that whether you're in a large room or a small room, people, as well as capable players who have also "earned their way," are still excluded sometimes. In the case of the small room it's physical limitations, and in the large room it's political perhaps... I'm not sure, but at the end of the day a session is a session regardless of the size of the room, and people are people.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Sorry, I should have been more specific. After reading Random's next post... I realized I should point out I was addressing his quote from Erin's article in my last post and not Jerry Holland's.
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Ah give the guy a break! Its a standard debating technique on this forum . I agree I think its a shame that people attempt to put others down to bolster their own opinions and argument, but unless the general consensus is that this is not acceptable then its fair enough if someone does it.
There is a cyclical myth making machine here at work and its pretty transparent. If someone argues against a consensus of opinion then they are belittled. When rational argument is abandoned in favour of insults and petty digs then its an admission of failure. Of course people who do this rarely even recognise their own behaviour. Its more about saving face than facing facts. Rather than accept that we all have a right to our own viewpoint they get desperate and start effing and blinding supporting each other in their collective Delusion. IMO Dow is a great contributor and if by some slip he has done as you say, well we all make mistakes, lets move on.
We all have our reasons for playing the music and none are right or wrong. Its a very personal thing. Trying to elevate one particular view point over others is fruitless because its bound to fail. Without a sturdy broad base in reality any such behaviour is bound to fail eventually. Its only a matter of time. Rather than put each other down lets uplift each other, support and facilitate communal learning. None of us are perfect and its good to remember that.
The topic obviously touches on 'sore points' and we all have our own understanding of what sessions are and perhaps 'should be'. Erin makes many valid points about social interactions. The fact is that its simply not possible to control other people without their active participation and there is little point in trying. Let us be ourselves and you be yourself., perhaps we wont get on, but at least we are being true to ourselves.
Now back to your regular program of Slagging
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
The specific quote of Erin's which I gave does not mention the form of exclusion which you (Phantom Button) refer to & which she mentions elsewhere in the blog. Between this thread & her blog it's fairly clear ~ IMHO. I cannot speak for how sessions currently function at Lark camp, as I have not been there in several years. What I hope Erin is offering, in the quote, is a means to find a balance within any given session. I cannot speak for Ms. Shrader. As for my own understanding of what you are saying, Jack, I did read what you posted earlier, "As I pointed out, I find the big session inner and outer circle sessions to feature their own form of exclusion, but there has been some of the best music coming out of those sessions too. It's all good, and there should be room for all sorts of session location, sizes, styles. And that's one of the great features of LC--there IS room for everything."
Have a good Lark Camp everyone! ;)
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
*
& I am aware Erin's quote is in regards to, "the success of a *large* session."
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
"If you'd care to read my comments for what they say - nothing more and nothing less - you'll see that I don't have a problem with clapping per se, but clapping after every set. Clapping after every set alters the whole feel of a session and changes the sociological setup and interrelationships between the participants. Clapping along to tunes alters it even more - especially since your average punter is unable to clap along to reels because they don't get the whole thing of backbeat and drive"
Well how nice of you. You go to a pub, get free beer for playing (if you have any sense), then pontificate about who claps and how often and what they do and don't "get." You know, those poor people who have gone to the pub for a night out with a bit of atmosphere, paying God knows what for every drink they drink. I might suggest that you confine your playing to you and your elitist mates in your kitchen from now on. Guaranteed insulation from those irritating clapping punters!
# Posted on May 2nd 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I have been reading through the all time biggest discussions from the archives. Anyone remember (or still trying to forget) which one had nearly 1,000 hits (994)? No worries, it's not relevant here. I did, however, enjoy the following comment, from a relatively small, though sizeable discussion & thought it worth linking in "The Hunt For ___" thread;
Re: Can *Too* much session etiquette be detrimental?
Posted on October 3rd 2005 by Zina Lee
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7902
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Ben Steen
Don't start there, it's too long.
Try this;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7902#comment169809
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Ben Steen
If you scroll up just above that link . . .
Zina Lee posts this,"The question is not actually a logical one, so there cannot be a good answer. There's no such thing as "too" much session etiquette, only what works for a session or any given group of people. It's like being pregnant; either you are or you aren't."
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Belittling other people's sessions, PB? You mean like this "The session dogma you profess in this forum makes me wonder if you even enjoy your own regular sessions. __They don't sound very fun__ if everyone sits around afraid to spoil everything by clapping or something horrible like that". Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, lol.
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
That was in response to you putting Martin Hayes down, using the term 'perform' like a four-letter-word to insult him, and then belittle the participants and people present at that session, Dow. And I knew you would pull that quote out and try to use it to further your attacks. But all anyone has to do is review your comments on this thread and it becomes painfully clear that you find it necessary to put other people down to promote your own POV. I really wish you could find it in yourself to find a better and more positive MO.
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I happen to think that Martin Hayes is a great performer. Why is that insulting???
And where, exactly, did I put down the people in that video? It was very nice music!
Sorry, I think you've deliberately read into my posts something that isn't there. Wouldn't be the first time of course.
????
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
DOW: "He's (the box player clapping in the video) showing his appreciation for the other musicians. If he looks at Martin Hayes and claps at him after every set then, whether he realises it or not, he's acknowledging that MH is performing for him, which he probably is - Martin Hayes is a performer. If the onlookers clap after every set then, yeah, I'd say it's more of a performance than a session, but I'm sure MH would be fine with that. I'd rather hear people chatting and glasses clinking, that sort of stuff. Like I said, everyone has different ideas about what a session is."
Dow, you already made it clear in this thread how you think people who 'perform' aren't having proper sessions thus putting down the session in that video.
DOW: "I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions"
Dow, you have also made it clear that anyone who 'performs' according to you own personal derogatory definition, isn't capable of playing in what you have deemed a "real session."
DOW: "Martin Hayes is a performer. If the onlookers clap after every set then, yeah, I'd say it's more of a performance than a session, but I'm sure MH would be fine with that."
Why would Martin be 'fine with that'? Because you have lowered him to fit your personal distinction for 'performer.' Do you even realize how pompous and arrogant this is? And where do you get off thinking you can dismiss the session in that video as somehow improper?
Then you turn your venom on me saying, "You want to chase all the best sessions in Ireland and "perform" with all the great players."
You have no idea what compels me to play Irish music or visit Ireland, yet you're pompous enough to insinuate I am on account of these motives you have assigned to me as being beneath your understanding or being capable of having the true and deeper understanding of real sessions that you possess. Honestly, Dow.
Then you place yourself and your session mates above the level of Martin Hayes and that session at Peppers in the video proclaiming: "I much prefer their playing (your session mates) than any of those musicians in the video, not least Martin Hayes (read into that that they're "better", if you must)."
So don't think you haven't made you position absolutely clear... you aren't fooling anyone, Dow. People in this forum like you, your wit and your opinions, Dow, but I don't think you're doing yourself any service by putting other people down to promote your POV.
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Jack, I don't think you're doing yourself any favours by misreading my comments, and, just as I predicted, reading into my comment that I thought my session mates are "better". God you're so predictable. It's like talking to a robot who churns out the same responses on every thread.
Also I never said that that session in the video wasn't a session. Again, you haven't read my comments properly, and you're superimposing your own warped logic and prejudices onto my comments, taking them out of context. What I actually said was that, IF THE BOX PLAYER CLAPS MARTIN HAYES AFTER EVERY SET AND THE ONLOOKERS CLAP AFTER EVERY SET THEN IT'S MORE OF A MARTIN HAYES PERFORMANCE. We have no more footage of that session, so we can't know what the box player and onlookers do after subsequent sets. All I'm saying is that, IN MY OPINION, if that happened and they all clapped him after every set then it'd be more towards a performance than a session. Haven't you ever been in a session where a player has dominated and the whole thing's become a bit of a one-man show? I'm not saying it would necessarily happen in MH's case, I'm just using it as an example of session versus performance.
Aside from that, Jack, since when did you have a problem with calling a session a performance? Why does it bother you that I call Martin Hayes a "performer" and point out how the session in the video could become a "performance". I thought you were of the view that ALL sessions were performances? Or are you just very confused?
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
PS why is it wrong to like my friends' playing more than the musicians in that video? It's not about them being better musicians, it's just my personal preference - my opinion... I like my friends' playing. Sorry, but give me one reason why I'm not entitled to enjoy playing with my friends and prefer their playing to that of well-known musicians. Please tell me, because I really can't understand your take on that one. Or should I stop enjoying my friends' playing because some random person on the internet told me I shouldn't? That's just so strange to me...
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Dow... I'll just point out one of your contradictions and leave you to find the rest.
"Also I never said that that session in the video wasn't a session."
DOW: "I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions"
Dow writes: "why does it bother you that I call Martin Hayes a 'performer'?"
Your definition has always portrayed the word as being beneath what happens in a session. My definition is more in line with the actual meaning which has nothing to do with sessions and only refers to the act of playing music.
Anyway, Dow, I'm not really qualified to be your psychotherapist so I'm done here and I hope you can sort this out somehow and perhaps develop a more positive approach to expressing your POV.
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Phantom Button
*
Dr Eric Berne ; 'the games people play' worth a read!
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Jack that's really rude of you to quote me out of context and misrepresent my comments like that, as you continue to do. Let's just look at my comment again:
"I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions."
Now, when I said that, I was NOT talking about the video. In fact, I posted that comment long before a link to the video appeared in this thread. Yet again, you use underhand tactics to put me in a bad light. I hope that anyone reading this will be able to see how cleverly you've cherry-picked my comments so that you can create straw man arguments, throwing vicious king hits at something that isn't there.
See, when you look at the original quote in its sentential environment, it comes across quite differently. Look:
"Some people see sessions as being more like gigs where you have really tight music that's basically a bunch of arranged sets played by a band, and there's an audience in the pub who clap after every set and stuff. I don't really see this sort of "session" as a session in its real sense. I think that people who are used to playing in these scenarios tend to show the audience what they can do rather than listening to what the other musicians can do. I prefer to play in proper sessions which are simply the sharing of tunes between musicians."
See? I was talking about bands playing a bunch of tightly arranged sets. Nothing like what was in the video.
As to my definition of "performer": you say I have "always portrayed the word as being beneath what happens in a session. Really? Beneath??! There is nothing wrong with performing music in concert or busking or whatever. All I've ever said was that act of "performing", in MY OPINION, is a sociologically and psychologically different act to what goes on in what I, personally, consider to be a session. Not beneath; just different. Like I said right from the start, we all have different views on what a session is. I've given mine. You've, well, not really given yours, you've just spent your time attacking me, but never mind, we all know yours anyway. It's okay to have a different opinion, Jack, really. I don't mind if you disagree with me, and in fact I welcome it, but pulling my comments out of context like that is just plain nasty. You're blowing smoke, mate.
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Dr. Dow
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
IMHO Dow is not putting down Martin Hayes in the least. Quite the opposite. Martin Hayes, as I am sure Mark & Jack will agree, {not witholding semantics} is capable of putting on a show or contributing to a session. Now whether he, or anyone, can or should do both at once is another matter.
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Ben Steen
*
A shameless plug. If anyone missed reading the Jerry Holland interview, which I linked above, I think it is worth a read.
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
Folks, this is your session.org sports reporter Buster Bodhran reporting on the scene from this knock down, drag out classic fight between two veteran heavyweights. It's been a mighty battle, both parties are bruised and battered, yet still stand tall. Truly, it's been a classic fight in the grand tradition we're used to, no holds barred over a timeless and perennial topic. Looks like the judges are going to have to call it a draw. No clear winner but a bought for the ages! Thanks to both competitors for coming out of retirement and showing their skills to a whole new crop of mustardonians!
This is Buster Bodhran, signing off. Remember to keep your trousers pressed and your wig glue fastened! So long folks!
# Posted on May 3rd 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Further Clues In The Hunt For Session Ettiquette
I think it's more likely to be me that's disappearing for a while, just having a wee speak of the mind while I still can.
# Posted on May 4th 2010 by bogman
Thank You Erin Shrader
I have attended Lark Camp 3 times, in the past, & am glad to hear it is still a wonderful experience in a beautiful place. I hope everyone going this year enjoys their experience & the people you find to make music with.
FWIW, I have found a good comment above. This is one way in which I would enjoy seeing our forum move, "The discussion about session size is the issue Erin addresses in her article. I was directed to her article when the concept of context was introduced in response to my point about the word choice. This is where I think the discussion has any real interest; most people in this forum have attended large sessions at music camps and festivals and might find it interesting and/or have comments to add."
Thank you Phantom Button.
;)
# Posted on May 5th 2010 by Ben Steen