A friend and session buddy recently scored this tune for our little ensemble, and I noticed he labeled the sheet music A dorian. I said, surely it is G major, notwithstanding the fact that it starts and ends on A. But no, he insists it is A dorian, and I find, to my amazement, the it is so labeled here, in the tunes section, as well.
I realize that A dorian and G major (or ionian) share exactly the same notes, with only F being sharp, but simply cannot hear this tune, in my mind's ear, as anything other than G major. Maybe this is the aural equivalent of a Necker cube, that stick figure drawing of a cube that can be seen as from above or below, and flips back and forth between the two. I try to thus hear the tune embedded in the A dorian framework, but simply cannot do it. I would like to hear a sampling of opinion concerning how you hear this tune. Is there any non-arbitrary determinant between these two? If not, then who's to say it isn't in D mixolidian or E minor (aeolian)?
It's in A dorian. The tune is minor mode, and resolves on the A after both the tune and the turn. Like many other A dorian tunes, it spends a fair amount of time flirting with G, but it comes to rest on A. The ending is a nice little A dorian bit shared with tunes like Bag of Spuds or if you want a jig, Dusty Windowsills. http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/579 http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/29
The big thing with D myx tunes is that they resolve to D, have the F#, and they tend to have a hard-to-miss downbeat C-natural at some point in the tune. Think of Jenny's Wedding or Gander in the Pratie Hole. To be in E aeolian (which would be really weird for an Irish tune) Palm Sunday would have to resolve to an E rather than an A.
There are plenty of tunes which are ambiguous as to their mode. For me, this one isn't. It's a fairly typical Adorian tune. And I can't make myself hear any other "tonal centre" (don't like that phrase - implies something else to me, something more like classical stuff) than A. I don't really get how you can hear it as G ... ?
I would agree that it is A dorian. When the tune ends there is a desire to add a satisfying G on the end to resolve it, but that is the whole point of the tune - it does not resolve, it keeps you hanging, and creates a tension that you don't get in G major tunes.
No question about it. DJF and Elaine have said it – A dorian.
One way to help hear its tonal centre (I’m personally OK with that term seeing as I’m over 18) is to harmonize it using just two chords.
Sure, this isn’t the most imaginative harmony but if you play the tune using Aminor and Eminor you’ll get the drift. When it comes to the final cadence you’ll hear it resolves perfectly happily with chords V to I ie in this case E minor to Aminor which fits fine with the A dorian melody.
"Triton's Trident"
Submitted on April 1st 2003 by Dow
"I'm afraid I felt a need to complete the series of "tunes in quirky modes". This one's in F# locrian - strangest of all the modes of the Western major scale - I just couldn't allow it to feel left out! Unlike the others, the locrian is based around the tritone or diminished 5th, also known as the "devil's interval" or "devil's triad"; that's the jarring sound created when F# and C# are played together. For this reason the tune was originally called "The Devil's Gap", but I later decided to rename it after Triton, Greek God of water and the sea, who carried a trident like his father Poseidon (and the devil?!)" http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1558
What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
A friend and session buddy recently scored this tune for our little ensemble, and I noticed he labeled the sheet music A dorian. I said, surely it is G major, notwithstanding the fact that it starts and ends on A. But no, he insists it is A dorian, and I find, to my amazement, the it is so labeled here, in the tunes section, as well.
I realize that A dorian and G major (or ionian) share exactly the same notes, with only F being sharp, but simply cannot hear this tune, in my mind's ear, as anything other than G major. Maybe this is the aural equivalent of a Necker cube, that stick figure drawing of a cube that can be seen as from above or below, and flips back and forth between the two. I try to thus hear the tune embedded in the A dorian framework, but simply cannot do it. I would like to hear a sampling of opinion concerning how you hear this tune. Is there any non-arbitrary determinant between these two? If not, then who's to say it isn't in D mixolidian or E minor (aeolian)?
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by will morgan
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
I'd put it in D mix
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Patkiwi
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
D mix is completely wrong.
It's A dorian
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
Oh right I see what you're asking.
I guess the determinant is what you mentioned, it starts on an A and finishes on an A, That's usually a good clue.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
It's in A dorian. The tune is minor mode, and resolves on the A after both the tune and the turn. Like many other A dorian tunes, it spends a fair amount of time flirting with G, but it comes to rest on A. The ending is a nice little A dorian bit shared with tunes like Bag of Spuds or if you want a jig, Dusty Windowsills.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/579
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/29
The big thing with D myx tunes is that they resolve to D, have the F#, and they tend to have a hard-to-miss downbeat C-natural at some point in the tune. Think of Jenny's Wedding or Gander in the Pratie Hole. To be in E aeolian (which would be really weird for an Irish tune) Palm Sunday would have to resolve to an E rather than an A.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by ElaineT
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
D.J.F.,
I agree it's a good clue, but is that all? Does A sound like the tonal "home" of that tune? It sure doesn't to me, especially in the B part.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by will morgan
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
Elaine,
Actually, I was practically being facetious suggesting D mix or E aeolian - that really seems like a stretch.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by will morgan
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
It sounds A minorish all the way through for me
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
Wow. Thanks, you two. Anyone else?
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by will morgan
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
There are plenty of tunes which are ambiguous as to their mode. For me, this one isn't. It's a fairly typical Adorian tune. And I can't make myself hear any other "tonal centre" (don't like that phrase - implies something else to me, something more like classical stuff) than A. I don't really get how you can hear it as G ... ?
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
I would agree that it is A dorian. When the tune ends there is a desire to add a satisfying G on the end to resolve it, but that is the whole point of the tune - it does not resolve, it keeps you hanging, and creates a tension that you don't get in G major tunes.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by gam
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
No question about it. DJF and Elaine have said it – A dorian.
One way to help hear its tonal centre (I’m personally OK with that term seeing as I’m over 18) is to harmonize it using just two chords.
Sure, this isn’t the most imaginative harmony but if you play the tune using Aminor and Eminor you’ll get the drift. When it comes to the final cadence you’ll hear it resolves perfectly happily with chords V to I ie in this case E minor to Aminor which fits fine with the A dorian melody.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Gran Cassa
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
>> Does A sound like the tonal "home" of that tune? <<
It does to me.
The only ground for confusion I can see is the G2E|G2E G2E close to the beginning. The rest is definitely centred around A.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by DaveL35
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
The first tune here yes ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TGYB4TV9ew
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by David50
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
Hmmm, I think I'd put it at F# locrian, personally.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Joe CSS
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
"Triton's Trident"
Submitted on April 1st 2003 by Dow
"I'm afraid I felt a need to complete the series of "tunes in quirky modes". This one's in F# locrian - strangest of all the modes of the Western major scale - I just couldn't allow it to feel left out! Unlike the others, the locrian is based around the tritone or diminished 5th, also known as the "devil's interval" or "devil's triad"; that's the jarring sound created when F# and C# are played together. For this reason the tune was originally called "The Devil's Gap", but I later decided to rename it after Triton, Greek God of water and the sea, who carried a trident like his father Poseidon (and the devil?!)"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1558
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
Thanks, all - my perplexity is complete. I will accept this as my musical koan for the indefinite future - till enlightenment dawns.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by will morgan
Re: What key/mode is Palm Sunday?
Mode: A dorian
The mode implies that A is the tonic & there is typically one sharp ~ F♯
Key: A minor
This is using *Key* to indicate the A minor triad, as opposed to key signature. Yes, this is perplexing. Deal with it.
# Posted on April 21st 2010 by Ben Steen