I was just wondering what people from around the globe think of the cello in Irish music. I recently saw a group perform, and they used the cello for melody and accompanying. It sounded great, but I know it isn't the most traditional instrument in the Irish music world. Thoughts?
A wonderful lady called Caroline Lavelle visited our session a few times some years ago. We thought oh how grim, we've had the crappy bodhranistas and the jazz guitarists and the recorders and the God knows what else and here we are with a bloody cello. But she was marvellous. You wouldn't think that Carolan's Concerto, every note in place, could work on a cello...brilliant. She passed like a ship in the night (I love mixing me metaphoricals). I hope she'll sail by again some day and grace us with her elegant and fine playing.
There's also Kathyn Locke who plays (has played?) traditional English music on the cello in various ensembles. She's brilliant as well.
If you haven't heard Natalie Haas playing cello with Alasdair Fraser, you've really missed out. The cello works so beautifully with the Scottish reels and jigs I'm sure a style similar to Natalie's would transfer over to Irish.
I play the cello and it's a totally great instrument. Natalie is sick! Check her out like ElaineT says, because shes quite excellent. And I love being a unique instrument, because a lot of people play fiddle or flute or accordian, but barely anyone plays Irish cello. It's a lot of fun!!!
I'm a cellist as well as a fiddle player. I've never played a cello in sessions (Irish or English), mainly for logistical reasons, but I do play it in gigs with a barndance ceili band. The dance music we play is mostly from English, Irish and Scottish sources, so it's fair to say I play "Irish cello" on occasion. Usually I'm improvising a bass line from guitar chord notation (we sight-read from sheet music for practical reasons), but sometimes I'll double the tune an octave below - that always gives a special effect to the "orchestration". Either way, it's a lot of fun, as you say.
BTW, I don't really understand the reference to Natalie (Hass) being sick.
Or possibly over-there speak. In certain circles, "sick" is used to mean "really quite astoundingly good". I've heard it on both coasts if the US - has it been spotted on other continents?
I imagine it's from something like "that's so good it's sickening", which was current a few years ago, but that's only me guessing.
The cello certainly has a place in Scottish traditional music, and is becomming increasingly popular, probably due to bands like Malinky.
I can see a role for it in Irish performance, but I'm not so sure about sessions. The cello's main role is playing counter-melody, which isn't part of Irish tradition. So I think a cellist would land up chugging chords most of the time, which could get annoying.
We have a cello player who comes from time to time and he does a really good job of either playing the tunes or accompanying. And the resulting sound of the whole session is a lot richer for it.
@muhly07: I hope your playing is a little clearer than your writing. But yes, I too think the cello is 'totally great'. (And I also love being a unique instrument.)
Re Llig, I think he just carries a cello about because it has a spike on the end.
In 18th century Scotland fiddle/cello duet playing seems to have been common. There are paintings of people dancing the Highland Reel to this combination.
So it's traditional, not like introducing Saxophones into Celtic music or other newfangled things.
The mystery is, nobody seems to know what sort of part the cello played.
There survives in Appalachian and other fiddling a tradition of duet fiddle playing, one fiddle playing the tune and the "second fiddle" playing a rythmic droning chordal part. One theory holds that this is a survival of the old cello accompaniment style. I've heard cellists play these sorts of parts to accompany Irish, Scottish, and Appalachian fiddle reels and it sounds very cool.
Others claim that the cello was playing the melody an octave lower than the fiddle.
Others say that the cello was playing a bass line.
Nobody knows, unless some music has come to light since I last read about this topic.
I forgot to say that there's an Irish harp player here whose husband is a cello player and we've done weddings with harp, cello, uilleann pipes, and fiddle, playing Carolan compositions and Irish song airs etc and it's a great sound.
I have seen/heard Mr. Fraser and Ms. Haas in concert, they were super. A great combination of highs and lows playing off of and complimenting each other. I seem to recall Alisdair saying that once upon a time, cellos were much more prevalent in traditional music, that guitars and pianos were the newer additions (never saw a piano at a session, Thank God. Can't stand the thumping, with all due respect to the fine piano players of the world).
I have also been missing Mr. Gill, who has been conspicuously absent of late, having grown quite fond of him, actually. Yes, some may be wondering how the word fond belongs in a sentence with Michael Gill.
We had a cello player visit our session a few times, but they do get drowned out a bit. During some quieter times they made a fine sound, could hear them play a tune or two, and you could pick out the Celto-New Age polyphonic harmony lines everyone's so fond of these days. Cellos are great for this.
About as welcome as a plate of shaved Westphalian Ham at a Bar Mitzvah IMO, although my attitude has more to do with the dilettantes who try to play them in sessions than with the instrument itself.
Two pupils in 4th form bought half sets of pipes. One was Robbie hannon, who went on to traditional greatness, and the other was Neil Martin who went on to play the cello with Phil Coulter and that male Welsh opera singer, and many others.
Neil played the cello for some traditional compositions as well, as he is a composer.
So I suppose you could find a use for many instruments at traditional "recitals". I note the Chieftains feature cello players at concerts these days.
I play cello and have been using it in a session it takes me awhile to transpose the tunes in my head and work out the various positions i need when playing melody. I play a combination of melody and chords tune depending.
I get there early line up my drinks for the night and set up so i am boxed in for the rest of the night and stay there. I find it works well in both the tunes and for backing songs. Cello is a very versitile instrument even if its a little on the large side. But then i guess its no bigger than a harp. But totally Agree Natalie Haas is great and there are a fair few out there playing tunes on cello you just have to hunt for them. At one of the sessions i go to there are 5 cellists so what was that about it not catching on i think it already has!!
Cello has more of a traditional role in Scots than Irish music from what I have seen. No one has mentioned one of the most awesome (if I were younger I might say the sickest) cello player active today, a young man named Rashaad Eggleston, who has recorded a number of albums with Boston area fiddler Hannekah Cassell. I never thought of the cello as a percussive instrument until I heard him play--awesome!!!!
Ha Ha I drink red wine so it doesn't matter. I may be wrong but i thought that no matter what the instrument be it guitar flute fiddle or whatever else you have stowed away that sensitivity and sublety was the key for any insturment to be sounding good in a session. Sorry guys but if you can't hear everyone who is playing surely it means you are playing to loud and insensitivly. Same goes for when you don't know a tune and are trying to work it out at full volume,belting out random notes and chords sorry but that doesn't sound good either.
The cello may indeed be about the same size as a harp, but the cellist does need bowing room on either side, which in effect takes up the space of another person. There is also the forward space needed which prevents a cellist from sitting as close to a table as others. These are among the logistical reasons for not playing the cello at sessions that I referred to in an earlier post.
Another important logistical reason is that walking a couple of miles to and from a session with a fiddle, which I commonly do, does not easily translate into carrying a cello for the same distance - I need to take my car, which raises other issues.
maybe so, I don't drive and manage it. I have invested in a good hard case for my cello with straps. If the session is a long way ie more than half an hours walk i will take it on the bus if i have to. Where there is a will there is a way so to speak. solves parking issues too
I played with a cellist once-- superb. She accompanied. However, cello plus guitar made the bottom end a bit muddy.
I have also played with a guy who plays a bass clarinet (i think)-- it's so long the end sits ont he ground. When he plays melody it's great. Hwoever, when he gets to reels he doesn't knwo, he plays that f**king oom-pa oom-pa beat and it sounds retarded.
ha yes, "sick" means AWESOME! and i agree one hundred percent with the session stuff--playing cello at a session is really not fun. i always feel crammed and i bump people, and i cant play well under those conditions. but still...cello is great!
Further to my previous post, my main reason for not taking a cello to sessions is that I go to sessions to play the music (the tunes). For me, the cello is not the best way to do this, either playing the tune an octave below everyone else or as a bass line (probably improvised). Playing the melody an octave down can clash with chords being played by the guitar(s), and as Chris pointed out, the combination of a cello bass line with one or more guitars is likely to be muddy, unless it is carefully worked out beforehand by all the participants - and then we're into a different scenario.
I've been practicing some trad music on my cello the last several months and am hoping to start taking it to sessions and see if the once a month fiddling class at a nearby pub will let me join in. One idea to counter the issue of getting the bottom too muddy when playing the melody: thumb position? I know it can be a pain (very literally at times), but it could be something to try out from time to time.
I would absolutely love to play with Uillean pipes one of these days. I've heard a duet once and it was one of the most beautifully haunting things ever.
Cello is a fine and lovely instrument for performances, but I don't think it works well in an Irish session. We had one at ours the other day, and the cellist did try to be discreet--but when those loud, low drones came booming in, I found myself wondering if we were about to be strafed by a WWII dive bomber....
I knew a cellist back in '03 that was working on some tunes from the Portland collection. Not sure how far he took it. All I know is that he could get some of the tunes up to a pretty good speed.
Cello in Irish music
Cello in Irish music
I was just wondering what people from around the globe think of the cello in Irish music. I recently saw a group perform, and they used the cello for melody and accompanying. It sounded great, but I know it isn't the most traditional instrument in the Irish music world. Thoughts?
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by saoirsedomination
Re: Cello in Irish music
A wonderful lady called Caroline Lavelle visited our session a few times some years ago. We thought oh how grim, we've had the crappy bodhranistas and the jazz guitarists and the recorders and the God knows what else and here we are with a bloody cello. But she was marvellous. You wouldn't think that Carolan's Concerto, every note in place, could work on a cello...brilliant. She passed like a ship in the night (I love mixing me metaphoricals). I hope she'll sail by again some day and grace us with her elegant and fine playing.
There's also Kathyn Locke who plays (has played?) traditional English music on the cello in various ensembles. She's brilliant as well.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Cello in Irish music
If you haven't heard Natalie Haas playing cello with Alasdair Fraser, you've really missed out. The cello works so beautifully with the Scottish reels and jigs I'm sure a style similar to Natalie's would transfer over to Irish.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by ElaineT
Re: Cello in Irish music
I play the cello and it's a totally great instrument. Natalie is sick! Check her out like ElaineT says, because shes quite excellent. And I love being a unique instrument, because a lot of people play fiddle or flute or accordian, but barely anyone plays Irish cello. It's a lot of fun!!!
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by muhly07
Re: Cello in Irish music
I'm a cellist as well as a fiddle player. I've never played a cello in sessions (Irish or English), mainly for logistical reasons, but I do play it in gigs with a barndance ceili band. The dance music we play is mostly from English, Irish and Scottish sources, so it's fair to say I play "Irish cello" on occasion. Usually I'm improvising a bass line from guitar chord notation (we sight-read from sheet music for practical reasons), but sometimes I'll double the tune an octave below - that always gives a special effect to the "orchestration". Either way, it's a lot of fun, as you say.
BTW, I don't really understand the reference to Natalie (Hass) being sick.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cello in Irish music
No, I didn't get that either! I forgot about Natalie Haas. Another brilliant cellist. They're coming in thick and fast now.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Cello in Irish music
Muhly07
You'll have to translate "sick" into "over 25-speak" for us old timers! I'm guessing "sick" is a good thing.
Wolf
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by wolfhul
Re: Cello in Irish music
Or possibly over-there speak. In certain circles, "sick" is used to mean "really quite astoundingly good". I've heard it on both coasts if the US - has it been spotted on other continents?
I imagine it's from something like "that's so good it's sickening", which was current a few years ago, but that's only me guessing.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Cello in Irish music
I like cellos.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Gringo
Re: Cello in Irish music
One of these days, I'm going to bring my double bass to our session...maybe not...
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Cello in Irish music
How about other horns such as saxophones, clarinets, trumpets, and alp horns?
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Gringo
Re: Cello in Irish music
The cello certainly has a place in Scottish traditional music, and is becomming increasingly popular, probably due to bands like Malinky.
I can see a role for it in Irish performance, but I'm not so sure about sessions. The cello's main role is playing counter-melody, which isn't part of Irish tradition. So I think a cellist would land up chugging chords most of the time, which could get annoying.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by skreech
Re: Cello in Irish music
We have a cello player who comes from time to time and he does a really good job of either playing the tunes or accompanying. And the resulting sound of the whole session is a lot richer for it.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Cello in Irish music
Where's Michael Gill now, doesn't he play cello if I recall correctly??? ;)
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Cello in Irish music
No, I don't think so. He plays viola and fiddle. He'll be back from gardening leave in May.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cello in Irish music
@muhly07: I hope your playing is a little clearer than your writing. But yes, I too think the cello is 'totally great'. (And I also love being a unique instrument.)
Re Llig, I think he just carries a cello about because it has a spike on the end.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by gam
Re: Cello in Irish music
Not Irish music but I love the playing of Norman and Nancy Blake playing Appalachian tunes as a fiddle/cello duet
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Cello in Irish music
In 18th century Scotland fiddle/cello duet playing seems to have been common. There are paintings of people dancing the Highland Reel to this combination.
So it's traditional, not like introducing Saxophones into Celtic music or other newfangled things.
The mystery is, nobody seems to know what sort of part the cello played.
There survives in Appalachian and other fiddling a tradition of duet fiddle playing, one fiddle playing the tune and the "second fiddle" playing a rythmic droning chordal part. One theory holds that this is a survival of the old cello accompaniment style. I've heard cellists play these sorts of parts to accompany Irish, Scottish, and Appalachian fiddle reels and it sounds very cool.
Others claim that the cello was playing the melody an octave lower than the fiddle.
Others say that the cello was playing a bass line.
Nobody knows, unless some music has come to light since I last read about this topic.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Richard D Cook
Re: Cello in Irish music
I forgot to say that there's an Irish harp player here whose husband is a cello player and we've done weddings with harp, cello, uilleann pipes, and fiddle, playing Carolan compositions and Irish song airs etc and it's a great sound.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Richard D Cook
Re: Cello in Irish music
Oh, I do love a bit of cello.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: Cello in Irish music
The way they burp and grunt and fart
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: Cello in Irish music
bliss!
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: Cello in Irish music
Michael Gill appears to have been suspended until may 7.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Cello in Irish music
Ah, cello - viola, I knew it was one of those 'strange' things!! Ignoramus as I am.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Cello in Irish music
Your point being, Mr not-really-that-anon?
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Cello in Irish music
I have seen/heard Mr. Fraser and Ms. Haas in concert, they were super. A great combination of highs and lows playing off of and complimenting each other. I seem to recall Alisdair saying that once upon a time, cellos were much more prevalent in traditional music, that guitars and pianos were the newer additions (never saw a piano at a session, Thank God. Can't stand the thumping, with all due respect to the fine piano players of the world).
I have also been missing Mr. Gill, who has been conspicuously absent of late, having grown quite fond of him, actually. Yes, some may be wondering how the word fond belongs in a sentence with Michael Gill.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Cello in Irish music
complement (being the grammatical/spelling fuss-budget that I am)
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Cello in Irish music
We had a cello player visit our session a few times, but they do get drowned out a bit. During some quieter times they made a fine sound, could hear them play a tune or two, and you could pick out the Celto-New Age polyphonic harmony lines everyone's so fond of these days. Cellos are great for this.
Other than that, it was lost in the strums...
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Cello in Irish music
Mr Gill, like others like him, provides the much-needed spiceness to counter the blandness that would doubtless otherwise pervade this website.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cello in Irish music
Cello?
About as welcome as a plate of shaved Westphalian Ham at a Bar Mitzvah IMO, although my attitude has more to do with the dilettantes who try to play them in sessions than with the instrument itself.
How's that for spicy?
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Cello in Irish music
But I would eat that ham.
# Posted on April 20th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Cello in Irish music
I was once a school teacher for a year.
Two pupils in 4th form bought half sets of pipes. One was Robbie hannon, who went on to traditional greatness, and the other was Neil Martin who went on to play the cello with Phil Coulter and that male Welsh opera singer, and many others.
Neil played the cello for some traditional compositions as well, as he is a composer.
So I suppose you could find a use for many instruments at traditional "recitals". I note the Chieftains feature cello players at concerts these days.
Can't see it catching on in a session however.
# Posted on April 21st 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Cello in Irish music
I play cello and have been using it in a session it takes me awhile to transpose the tunes in my head and work out the various positions i need when playing melody. I play a combination of melody and chords tune depending.
I get there early line up my drinks for the night and set up so i am boxed in for the rest of the night and stay there. I find it works well in both the tunes and for backing songs. Cello is a very versitile instrument even if its a little on the large side. But then i guess its no bigger than a harp. But totally Agree Natalie Haas is great and there are a fair few out there playing tunes on cello you just have to hunt for them. At one of the sessions i go to there are 5 cellists so what was that about it not catching on i think it already has!!
# Posted on April 21st 2010 by frogeyes
Re: Cello in Irish music
Hey, frogeyes, are you alone among cello players in preferring your beer to get warmer and warmer as the evening progresses...?
# Posted on April 21st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Cello in Irish music
Cello has more of a traditional role in Scots than Irish music from what I have seen. No one has mentioned one of the most awesome (if I were younger I might say the sickest) cello player active today, a young man named Rashaad Eggleston, who has recorded a number of albums with Boston area fiddler Hannekah Cassell. I never thought of the cello as a percussive instrument until I heard him play--awesome!!!!
# Posted on April 21st 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Cello in Irish music
Ha Ha I drink red wine so it doesn't matter. I may be wrong but i thought that no matter what the instrument be it guitar flute fiddle or whatever else you have stowed away that sensitivity and sublety was the key for any insturment to be sounding good in a session. Sorry guys but if you can't hear everyone who is playing surely it means you are playing to loud and insensitivly. Same goes for when you don't know a tune and are trying to work it out at full volume,belting out random notes and chords sorry but that doesn't sound good either.
# Posted on April 21st 2010 by frogeyes
Re: Cello in Irish music
The cello may indeed be about the same size as a harp, but the cellist does need bowing room on either side, which in effect takes up the space of another person. There is also the forward space needed which prevents a cellist from sitting as close to a table as others. These are among the logistical reasons for not playing the cello at sessions that I referred to in an earlier post.
Another important logistical reason is that walking a couple of miles to and from a session with a fiddle, which I commonly do, does not easily translate into carrying a cello for the same distance - I need to take my car, which raises other issues.
# Posted on April 21st 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cello in Irish music
maybe so, I don't drive and manage it. I have invested in a good hard case for my cello with straps. If the session is a long way ie more than half an hours walk i will take it on the bus if i have to. Where there is a will there is a way so to speak. solves parking issues too
# Posted on April 22nd 2010 by frogeyes
Re: Cello in Irish music
I played with a cellist once-- superb. She accompanied. However, cello plus guitar made the bottom end a bit muddy.
I have also played with a guy who plays a bass clarinet (i think)-- it's so long the end sits ont he ground. When he plays melody it's great. Hwoever, when he gets to reels he doesn't knwo, he plays that f**king oom-pa oom-pa beat and it sounds retarded.
# Posted on April 22nd 2010 by chris stolz
Re: Cello in Irish music
ha yes, "sick" means AWESOME! and i agree one hundred percent with the session stuff--playing cello at a session is really not fun. i always feel crammed and i bump people, and i cant play well under those conditions. but still...cello is great!
# Posted on April 23rd 2010 by muhly07
Re: Cello in Irish music
Further to my previous post, my main reason for not taking a cello to sessions is that I go to sessions to play the music (the tunes). For me, the cello is not the best way to do this, either playing the tune an octave below everyone else or as a bass line (probably improvised). Playing the melody an octave down can clash with chords being played by the guitar(s), and as Chris pointed out, the combination of a cello bass line with one or more guitars is likely to be muddy, unless it is carefully worked out beforehand by all the participants - and then we're into a different scenario.
# Posted on April 25th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cello in Irish music
I would add that my reluctance to carry a cello a couple of miles to and from a session is in fact age-related
# Posted on April 25th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Cello in Irish music
I've been practicing some trad music on my cello the last several months and am hoping to start taking it to sessions and see if the once a month fiddling class at a nearby pub will let me join in. One idea to counter the issue of getting the bottom too muddy when playing the melody: thumb position? I know it can be a pain (very literally at times), but it could be something to try out from time to time.
I would absolutely love to play with Uillean pipes one of these days. I've heard a duet once and it was one of the most beautifully haunting things ever.
# Posted on August 21st 2010 by Ainwyn
Re: Cello in Irish music
Cello is a fine and lovely instrument for performances, but I don't think it works well in an Irish session. We had one at ours the other day, and the cellist did try to be discreet--but when those loud, low drones came booming in, I found myself wondering if we were about to be strafed by a WWII dive bomber....
# Posted on August 21st 2010 by John Galt
Re: Cello in Irish music
I knew a cellist back in '03 that was working on some tunes from the Portland collection. Not sure how far he took it. All I know is that he could get some of the tunes up to a pretty good speed.
# Posted on August 30th 2010 by banshee misfortune