I only just joined, but I've been reading here a few months and I saw discussions about learning tunes. I've been learning for a year now, just over. So I've been going to a big session for two years, thats' why I got started, and I know one of the main players, he's an old schoolmate and we are still in touch.
He gave me this list of tunes (it's below), and said he'd heard all these at our session (in London) over the last year at one time or another. He says he doesn't know them all to play, but most of them, and that if I want to start joining in at the session I should get to know at least a third, or really a half of them, then go on and learn the rest.
Isn't that going to take a long time? I'm learning about three or sometimes four a week at the moment, though sometimes I get mixed up between them and forget what they are. Will I get to learn them faster after a while, do you think? Do people get faster at learning tunes? I guess I'm fairly normal at music. I played guitar and clarinet for several years, passed a few exams, played a bit in amateur orchestras, that sort of thing. Nothing special, but not nothing.
Anyway, here's the list - what do you think?
* Barndances
Chaffpool Post
Curlew Hills
Dances at Kinvara
Lucy Farr's Barndance
Martin Hayes’ Barn Dance
Tara Diamond's
* Set dances
Bluebell Polka
King of the Fairies
Napoleon Crossing the Alps
Blackbird
* English tunes
Princess Royal
Rose Tree
Highland Mary
Shepherd's Hay
Young Johnson
Nutting Girl
Bacup #1
Brighton Camp
Jimmy Allen
Sally Lucas
Winster Gallop
Up the Sides and Down the Middle
* Highlands
If It Wasn't For The Women of the World
Munlochy Bridge
Keel Row
* Hornpipes
An Comhra Donn
Bantry Bay
Belfast Hornpipe
Big John's Hornpipe
Bonaparte Crossing The Rhine
Boys of Blue Hill
Chief O'Neill's Favourite
City of Savannah
Clareman’s
Cork Hornpipe
Cronin's
Cuckoo’s Nest
Delahanty's
Doris Browne’s
Drunken Sailor’s
Fairies Hornpipe
Galway
German
Golden Castle Hornpipe
Goodnatured Man
Green Grow the Rashes O
Greencastle
Her Long Dark Hair Was Flowing Down Her Back
Hills Of Coore
Kildare Fancy
Lewis Proudlock’s
Liverpool Hornpipe
Madam Bonaparte
Murphy's Hornpipe
Navvie on the Line
Off to California
Plains of Boyle
Pretty Maggie Morrissey
Red Haired Boy
Rickett's Hornpipe
Rights of Man
Sailor's Hornpipe
Shaskeen Clog
Stack of Barley
Trumpet Hornpipe
Whistle Up the Cat
* Jigs
Aaron’s Key
Andy De Jarlis’
Apples in Winter
Austin Barret's
Banish Misfortune
Bank of Turf
Banks Of Lough Gowna
Battering Ram
Behind the Haystack
Biddy The Bold
Bill Harte’s
Bill Sullivan’s
Black Rogue
Blackthorn Stick
Blarney Pilgrim
Blue Idol
Bluebells Are Blooming
Bohola
Boys of Coomanore
Boys Of Tanderagee
Boys of the Town
Brady’s
Brid Harper’s
Bridal Jig
Buck in the Woods
Burnt Old Man
Butcher’s March
By Golly
Calliope House
Carraroe
Castle
Castletown Connors
Child of My Heart
Christy Barry’s
Clare Jig
Cliffs of Moher
Coleraine
Condon’s Frolics
Connaughtman’s Rambles
Cook in the Kitchen
Coppers and Brass
Cowboy Jig
Culcrevie
Cullen
Curragh
Dancing Eyes
Dandy Bash
Doctor O’Neill’s
Donnybrook Fair
Drunken Gauger
Dusty Windowsills
Eavesdropper
Emmett’s Hedgehog
Fasten The Leggin’
Father O'Flynn
Flowers Of Spring
Foggy Dew (English jig)
Fraher's
Frieze Britches
Frost is All Over
Full Rigged Ship
Gallagher's Frolics
Gander in the Pratie Hole
Garrett Barry's
Geese In The Bog
Gillan's Apples
Glasgow Gaelic Club
Gold Ring
Hag At The Churn
Hag With The Money
Hag’s Purse
Happy To Meet, Sorry To Part
Hare in the Corn
Haste to the Wedding
Haunted House
Have A Drink With Me
Hawthorn Hedge
Health To Ladies
High Part Of The Road
Hughie Travers’
Humours Of Ballyloughlin
Humours Of Drinagh
Humours of Glendart
Humours Of Lisheen
Humours Of Trim
I Buried My Wife and Danced on Her Grave
I Ne’er Shall Wean Her
Idle Road
Ingonish
Irish Washerwoman
Jackson’s Morning Brush
Jig of Slurs
Jimmy Neary’s
Jimmy Ward's
Joe Derrane’s
Joe John Kelly’s
Josie’s Visit
Joy of My Life
Kerfunten Jig
Kesh
Kilfenora
Killavil Jig
Knocknagow
Langstrom’s Pony
Langstrom's Pony
Lannigan's Ball
Lark in the Morning
Lark On The Strand
Larry O'Gaff
Legacy
Lietrim Fancy
Life is all Chequered
Lilting Banshee
Lilting Fisherman
Lost And Found
Loughing Spoons
Luaithreadán’s
Lucy Farr’s
Maid at the Well
Maid in the Meadow
Maid On The Green
March From Oscar And Malvina
Matt Hayes’
Merry Old Woman
Michael Dwyer’s
Mist Covered Mountain
Mist On The Meadows
Monaghan Jig
Monk's Jig
Mooncoin Jig
Morning Lark
Morrison's
Mouse In The Kitchen
Mug Of Brown Ale
Muireann’s
Munster Bacon
Munster Buttermilk
My Darling Asleep
Nightingale
Nina’s
Old Flail
Old Hag You Have Killed Me
Old Joe’s
Old Tipperary
Out on the Ocean
Oyster Girl
Paddy Clancy's
Paddy Fahy's
Paddy O’Rafferty
Paddy’s Return
Palm Sunday
Pay The Reckoning
Pipe On The Hob #1
Pipe On The Hob #2
Pull The Knife And Stick It In Again
Queen Of The Fair
Quilty Shore
Rakes Of Clonmel
Rakes Of Kildare
Rambles Of Mike
Rambling Pitchfork
Richard Brennan's
Right of Way
Roaring Barmaid
Rollicking Boys Of Tanderagee
Rolling Waves
Rose in the Heather
Saddle the Pony
Scatter the Mud
Scotsman Over the Border
Sean Bu
Sean Ryan's
Shandon Bells
Sheep In The Boat
Ship in Full Sail
Sixpenny Money
Sliabh Russell
Smash the Windows
Spórt
Sporting Pitchfork
Square House
Stan Chapman’s
Steamboat Quickstep
Strayaway Child
Strike The Gay Harp
Strop the Razor
Swallowtail Jig
Swedish Jig
Tar Road to Sligo
Tatter Jack Walsh
Tell Her I Am
Tenpenny Bit
Thompson’s
Three Sea Captains
Timmy Clifford’s
Tobin's
Tom Billy’s
Tongs By The Fire
Top of Cork Road
Trip to Athlone
Trip To Killavil
Trip to Sligo
Trip To The Cottage
Tripping up the Stairs
Up And About In The Morning
Up in the Air
Walls of Liscaroll
Wheels Of The World
Whistling Postman
Willie Coleman’s
Woodcock
* Marches
Dawning of the Day
Foggy Dew
Minstrel Boy
Return to Fingal
Sean South
* Mazurkas
John Doherty's Mazurka
Old Donegal Mazurka
Rachel On The Rock
Shoe the Donkey
Sunny's Mazurka
Vincent Campbell's Mazurka
* Miscellaneous
Athol Highlanders
Cold Frosty Morning
Da Slockit Light
Hobart’s Transformation
Jig of Slurs
Mountains of Pomerory
New Ridded Ship
Possum up a Gumstump
Sweets of May
* Polkas
Ailbe Grace’s
Ballydesmond Polka #1
Ballydesmond Polka #2
Ballydesmond Polka #3
Ballyvourney Polka
Battle of Aughrim
Bill Sullivan's
Black Rock
Britches Full of Stiches
Brosnan's #0
Brosnan's #1
Can't You Dance the Polka
Church Street Polka
Dalaigh's
Dark Girl Dressed in Blue
Denis Murphy's Polka
Din Tarrant's
Egan's
Farewell to Whiskey
Ger the Rigger
Hamilton's Polka #2
Hamilton's Polka #3
I'll Tell Me Ma
Jenny Lind
Jessica's
Jim Keefe’s
John Ryan's
Kerry Cow
Lakes of Sligo
Little Diamond
McKeever's #1
McKeever's #2
McKeever's #3
Maggie in the Wood
Magic Slipper
Maids of Ardagh
McDonagh's Polka
Merry Girl
My Aunt Jane
New Roundabout
O’Sullivan’s
O'Grada's #1
Oh Nellie
O'Keefe's
O'Sullivan's Polka
Pat Horgan’s #1
Peg Ryan’s Fancy
Rakes of Mallow
Rakes Polka
Rattling Bog
Sweeney’s
Tar Abhaile
Tom McGowan’s
Toormore Polka #1
Trady Reagan
Tralee Jail
Tripping on the Mountain
Tripping to the Well
Tureengarbh Glen
Up and Away
Walsh's
* Reels
A Fair Wind
A Long Way From Home
A Night In Ennis
Abbey Reel
Abbeyleix
After the Battle of Aughrim
Aggie Whyte’s
Ah, Surely!
Aine’s Invitation
Ambrose Moloney’s
Anderson’s
Antrim Rose
Anything for Jonjo
Are You Ready Yet?
Ashplant
Aughacashel
Bag Of Spuds #1
Bag Of Spuds #2
Bank of Ireland
Banks Of The Illen
Banshee
Barge Inn
Barrowburn
Beare Island Reel
Beauty Spot
Belles Of Tipperary
Big John MacNeill's
Bird in the Bush
Black Pat's
Blackberry Blossom
Black-eyed Sailor
Blackhaired Lass
Blacksmith’s
Blackthorn
Blockers
Bloom Of Youth
Bob McQuillen’s
Bobby Casey's Reel
Boil the Breakfast Early
Boil the Kettle Early
Bond Store
Bonnie Anne #1
Bonnie Anne #2
Bonnie Kate
Boogie
Boy in the Boat
Boys Of Ballisodare
Boys of Malin
Boys of Portaferry
Boys of the Lough
Boys On The Hilltop
Brenda Stubbert's
Brendan McMahon’s
Broken Pledge
Bucks of Oranmore
Bunch Of Currants
Bunch Of Green Rushes
Bunch of Keys
Bunker Hill
Bus Stop
Bush In Bloom
Cameronian Reel
Cape Breton Fiddler’s Welcome To Shetland
Captain Kelly
Carmel Mahoney Mulhaire
Castle Kelly
Chicago Reel
Christmas Eve
Churchbell Reel
Coachman’s Whip
College Groves
Collier’s
Colonel Rogers
Come West Along The Road
Commodore
Concert
Concertina Reel
Congress
Connaught Heifers
Convenience Reel
Cooley's
Corner House
Cottage In The Grove
Craig’s Pipes
Crib Of Perches
Crooked Road to Dublin
Crosses Of Annagh
Crossing The Shannon
Crowley's #1
Crowley's #2
Culfadda
Cup Of Tea
Curlew
Custom Gap
Da New Rigged Ship
Dairy Maid
Derry Craig Wood
Destitution
Devanny’s Goat
Dick Gossip's
Dinky's
Dinny O'Brien's
Dogs Among The Bushes
Donald Blue
Donegal
Doonagore
Dowd’s #9
Dowd's Favorite
Down The Broom
Dr. Gilbert's
Drag Her Round Road
Drowsy Maggie
Drunken Landlady
Drunken Tinker
Dublin Porter
Dublin
Duke Of Leinster
Dunmore Lasses
Earl's Chair
East Clare
Easy Club Reel
Eileen Curran
Enchanted Lady
Exile OF Erin
Fair Wind
Fairhaired Mary
Farewell to Connaught
Farewell To Erin
Farewell To Ireland
Farewell To Miltown
Farrell O'Gara's
Father Kelly's
Fermoy Lasses
Ferry Banks
First House In Connaught
First Month Of Summer
Five Mile Chase
Flax In Bloom
Floating Crowbar
Flogging Reel
Flower of the Flock
Flowers of Edinburgh
Flowers of Red Hill
Flowers Of The Red Mill
Follow Me Down to Carlow
For The Sake Of Old Decency
Four Courts
Four Mile Stone
Fox On The Town
Foxhunter’s
Galtee
Galway Rambler
Galway Reel
Garrett Barry’s
Gatehouse Maid
Gates of Mullagh
Geoghan’s
George White’s Favourite
Girl That Broke My Heart
Glass of Beer
Glen Allen
Glen Of Aherlow
Glen Reel
Glencolmcille
Glens of Aherlow
Glountane School – 1862
God Speed the Plough
Golden Keyboard
Gooseberry Bush
Gorman’s
Graf Spee
Gravel Walks
Green Fields Of America
Green Fields Of Glentown
Green Fields Of Rossbeigh
Green Gates
Green Groves of Erin
Green Hills Of Tyrol
Green Mountain
Greenfields of Glentown
Greenfields of Rossbeigh
Guns Of The Magnificent Seven
Hand Me Down The Tackle
Hanly’s Tweed
Happy Days of Youth
Harkers
Heather Breeze
Heathery Braes
Heathery Cruach
Heights Of Muingbhathá
High Reel
High Road To Glin
High Road to Linton
Holly Bush
Holy Land
Honeymoon
House Of Hamill
Hughie Travers’ #1
Humours of Lissadell
Humours of Scarrif
Humours Of Tulla
Humours Of Westport
Hunter’s House
Hunter's Purse
I'm Ready Now!
In And Out The Harbour
Ireland in New York
Ivy Leaf
Jackie Coleman’s #1
Jackson’s #1
Jackson’s #2
Jenny Picking Cockles #1
Jenny Picking Cockles #2
Jenny’s Chickens
Jenny’s Wedding
Jenny's Welcome To Charlie
Jim Hodder’s
Jim McKillop’s
Jimmy O’Reilly’s
John Dwyer’s
John McFadden’s Favourite
Johnny Cronin’s
Johnny's Wedding
Jolly Clamdiggers
Jolly Tinker
Jug Of Punch
Julia Delaney
Kelly’s On King
Kerryman's Daughter
Killarney Boys of Pleasure
Killavil Fancy
Killavil Reel
Kilmaley Reel
King Of The Clans
Kiss Me Kate
Kit O’Connor’s
Kitty’s Gone A-Milking
Knotted Cord
Kylebrack Rambler
La Cosa Mulligan
Lad O’Beirne’s #1
Lad O’Beirne’s #2
Ladies’ Choice #1
Ladies’ Choice #2
Lads of Laois
Lady Anne Montgomery
Lady Gordon’s
Lady on the Island
Larry Redican’s Bow
Larry’s Favourite
Last Night’s Fun
Launching The Boat
Laurel Tree
Leitrim Lilter
Leslie’s
Letterkenny Blacksmith
Limerick Lasses
Limestone Rock
Little Katie Taylor
Log Cabin
Lomanach Cross
London Lasses
Long Drop
Long Strand
Longford Collector
Longford Tinker
Lord Gordon’s
Lord McDonald’s
Love At The Endings
Lucky in Love
Lucy Campbell’s
Maddy Donovan’s
Maggie’s Pancakes
Maid Behind The Bar
Maid of Mount Cisco
Maids of Mitchellstown
Mama’s Pet #1
Mama’s Pet #2
Man Of Aran
Man Of The House
Maple Leaf
Margaree
Market Day
Marry While You’re Young
Martin Wynne’s #1
Martin Wynne’s #2
Martin Wynne’s #3
Mason's Apron
Master Crowley's
Master McDermott’s
Matt Peoples’ #1
Matt Peoples’ #2
Maud Millar #1
Maud Millar #2
Maudabawn Chapel
Mayor Harrison’s Fedora
McDonagh’s #2
McFadden’s Handsome Daughter
McGovern’s Favourite
McMahon's
Mermaid Of Mullaghmore
Merry Blacksmith
Milliner's Daughter
Miss Brady’s
Miss Johnson’s
Miss McLeod
Miss Monaghan
Miss Thornton’s
Mistress On The Floor
Monaghan Twig
Morning Dew
Morning Mist
Morning Star
Mossy Banks
Mother's Delight
Mountain Road
Mountain Top
Moving Cloud
Mulhaire’s #9
Mullingar Races
Mulqueen's Reel
Music in the Glen
Musical Priest
My Love Is In America
Natterjack’s
New Copperplate
Nine Mile Stone
Nine Points of Roguery
Noisy Curlew
Now She's Purring
O’Connell's Trip To Parliament
O’Connor Donn’s
Off to Mass
Old Bush
Old Copperplate
Old Dudeen
Old Schoolmaster
Old Torn Petticoat
Otter's Holt
Over The Bog Road
Over the Moor to Maggie
Paddy Canny’s Toast #1
Paddy Canny’s Toast #2
Paddy Fahy's Reel
Paddy Murphy’s Wife
Paddy Taylor’s
Palm Tree
Palmer’s Gate
Pamela’s Lonely Nights
Patsy Touhey’s
Pauline’s Place
Peeler’s Jacket
Periwig
Pigeon On The Gate #1
Pigeon On The Gate #2
Pigtown Fling
Pinch of Snuff
Pint Of Reference
Plough And The Stars
Poor But Happy At 53
Pretty Girls Of Mayo
Primrose Lasses
Providence
Rachael Rae
Rags And Tatters
Rainy Day #1
Rainy Day #2
Rakish Paddy
Rambling Sailor
Reconciliation
Red-haired Lass
Reel of Mullinavat
Repeal of the Union
Return To Camden Town
Return To Miltown
Road To Ballymac
Roaring Mary
Rocky’s
Roddy McDonald’s Fancy
Rolling in the Ryegrass
Ronnie Cooper
Roscommon Reel
Rose of Antrim
Sailing Into Walpole’s Marsh
Sailor on the Rock
Sailor’s Bonnet
Salamanca
Sally Gardens
Sandmount
Scartaglen
Scholar
Sean Reid’s
Sean Sa Cheo
Sergeant Early’s Dream
Shamrock Hill
Shaskeen Reel
Sheehan's
Sheila Coyle’s
Shetland Fiddler
Ships Are Sailing
Shoemaker’s Daughter
Silver Spear
Silver Spire
Skylark
Sleep Soond In Da Moarnin’
Sleepy Maggie
Sligo Maid
Small Hills Of Offaly
Soldier's Joy
Solus Lillis’
Speed the Plough
Spike Island Lasses
Sporting Nell
Sporting Paddy
St Annes Reel
Star Of Munster
Staten Island
Steampacket
Stony Steps
Sunny Banks
Sunset
Swallow’s Nest
Swallow’s Tail
Sweeney’s Buttermilk
Sweeney’s Dream
Swingin' on a Gate
Sword In The Hand
Tam Lin
Tarbolton
Tarbolton Lodge
Tear the Calico
Teelin
Teetotaler
Templehouse
That’s Right Too
Tim Moloney’s
Tom Billy's
Tom Ward's Downfall
Tommy Peoples’ #1
Tommy Peoples’ #2
Torn Jacket
Toss the Feathers #1
Toss the Feathers #2
Traveller
Trim the Velvet
Trip To Cullenstown
Trip To Durrow
Trip To Nenagh
Trip To Pakistan
Turkey Reel
Turnpike
Twelve Pins
Twilight In Portroe
Two Days To Go
Union Reel
Virginia
Volunteer
Whole Chicken In The Soup
Wild Irishman
Wind that Shakes the Barley
Windbroke
Windmill
Wise Maid
Within a Mile of Dublin
Woman Of The House
Yellow Tinker
Hunter's Purse
* Slides
Brosna
Cat Rambles to the Childs Saucepan
Clog
Dan O'Keeffe's
Dennis Murphy's Slide
Dingle Regatta
Going to the Well for Water
John Kelly's Slide
Kathleen O'Hehir
Long Note
Merrily Kiss the Quaker's Wife
Mick Duggan's
O’Keefe’s 2
Off She Goes
Old Hag in the Kiln
Road To Lisdoonvarna
Second Slide
Star Above the Garter
Up the Sides and Down the Middle
Weavers
* Slip Jigs
A Fig For A Kiss
An Phis Fliuch
Another Jig Will Do
Boys Of Ballysodare
Butterfly
Cathal McConnell's
Ceol na Mara
Cock And The Hen
Coleman’s No 1
Dever the Dancer
Drops Of Brandy
Fairy
Farewell To Whalley Range
Foxhunter's
Give Us a Drink of Water
Gort Na Mona
Hardiman the Fiddler
Hills of Tipperary
Humours Of Ballymanus
Humours Of Whiskey
Kid on the Mountain
Little Fair Cannavans
Moll Roe
My Mind Will Never Be Easy
Road to Athlone
Rocky Road To Dublin
Striking Clock
Swaggering Jig
Tigh Rabhartaigh
Whinney Hills Of Leitrim
* Waltzes
Boda Waltz
Far Away in Australia
Farahar’s
Flatbush
Inisheer
Josefin’s
La Marianne
Margaret’s Waltz
Marino Waltz
Sangshy Henvalson Vals
Waltz of the Little Girls
Wild Rose of the Mountain
There are a few short cuts which might work in your case.
On the jigs "Humours of Trim" & "Rolling Waves" are different names for one tune. Same goes for "Top of Cork Road" & "Father O'Flynn" If you can find whoever compiled the list they can probably fix any duplications.
Random, a correction. Rolling Waves and Humours of Trim are two distinct tunes. It's just that Rolling Waves is often given as the name for both tunes. Look 'em up in the database here and you'll see the that they're not at all the same melody.
"Will I get to learn them faster after a while, do you think? Do people get faster at learning tunes?"
Yes & yes. Don't worry. Slow and steady. Keep at it. They will come quicker and quicker.
You are doing it SO right. We tell folks all the time on here to find their local sessions and learn the tunes they know first. You are spot on here. Got a local friend with the local list, you're good to go.
If you'll forgive me, this seems to me a terrible way to go about learning tunes. You've got to break the task up, or you're never going to get anywhere with it.
Go to a session with your buddy and do anything but sit and pay attention to the music - have a conversation, play darts, talk to pretty girls, do something. When a tune grabs your ear, tap your buddy and say, write that one down. At the end of the night you'll still have too long a list, but don't worry, you'll be back. Next week, do the same thing, but you don't get to look at the list. Just have him put a tick mark by any that grabbed you twice running. And keep this up until you actually recognise maybe four or five tunes. Then throw away the lists and learn those ones.
In the meantime, you'll probably start noticing one or two more tunes - learn those. Rinse, repeat. It might take a little longer - or maybe not - but in any case it's a lot more fun than slaving away trying to complete a checklist.
It's not about how many tunes you know but how well you play the tunes you do know.
When you can play really well, then it's about how many tunes you know.
You will never know enough tunes.
Don't rush it--of course it's going to take a long time. That's the point. This tradition isn't a microchip you swallow and gain instant mastery of. The experience of learning this music *is* nirvana. There is no subsequent destination. Enjoy the moment, then let it go. Enjoy the next moment, then let it go. Lather, rinse repeat.
If you haven't already, latch on to a good mentor. Learn from a real person who's well immersed in this music. Make friends.
thats a very daunting list,
how many tunes? 900+?
if you properly learn 3 a week, it will take you 2 years to get 300 of these down. which is a third, at which point your friend says you should start playing in sessions.
maybe your friend is just giving you a coded message; go away and improve your playing for 2 years then come back.
-----
by all means get the name of tunes you like at your local session, and try to learn them.
but there is little point in focusing on the repertoire list of just one session; esp in london, where there are 20+ sessions you could attend,all with varying repertoires.
far better to start with a smaller list of (almost) universal tunes.
as ever, i recommend people to search here for Dows List, and use that as a start. it has about 60 tunes on it.it will stand you in very good stead.
Seconding Jon Kiparsky's idea, except without actually writing down tune names at the session.
I just make mental notes of the tunes that grab me. I don't write them down, because I don't want to collect more tune names than I can remember - this keeps things manageable. These days I find a tune or so a month that goes on the to-do list. Even still, that list would take a year or so to work through, and that's assuming that I don't fall in love with any additional tunes in the intervening year - unlikely. I don't work through the list in order; when I'm in the mood to learn something new, I learn my favourite tune off the list, usually one that's already at least somewhat embedded in my subconscious. Nothing goes on the list if I can't connect the tune name to at least a fragment of the melody; I don't want to end up with a disembodied list of names. If there's a tune that called to me on more than one occasion, I know it's a keeper.
I know folks who write down names of everything they hear that isn't currently in their repertoire, and others who don't do quite that, but still write down five or six names a night. They end up with notebooks with hundreds of tune names, many repeated several times. By the time they get around to learning one, it's often been so long since they've heard it that their written record of the tune name is now entirely disconnected from any memory of the tune. And although their to-do list is longer than mine, I don't think they end up learning (and retaining) more tunes than I do.
Also - "I'm learning about three or sometimes four a week at the moment, though sometimes I get mixed up between them and forget what they are."
If you're not retaining the tunes, that's likely a sign that you're learning new ones before you've really cemented your learning of the old ones. I know of only one person who's learned 3 or more new tunes a week - and she'd been playing this music for years (yes, it does get easier with time!), and was on leave from her job and so had tons of free time. You'll find that after a few years of playing this stuff, some tunes will just enter your brain and fall under your fingers without any conscious effort on your part.
TDM - (what an unfortunate abbreviation!) - In all honesty, the writing down can be dispensed with. I only included it to give the buddy something to do, so he'd feel useful.
Knowing half of those tunes would be useless in a session if you've never played them with other people. Sitting around learning tunes is a good thing. But the only way to become a session player is to get out and do it.
So I would suggest getting out into the sessions, make some more friends, and listen listen listen. If the session that you have been going to isn't particularly friendly to beginners, find some other sessions that are... (Your friend might have been trying to subtly let you know that the session you have been going to really caters to advanced players, and that you shouldn't try to join in there until you can keep up... But not all sessions are that way. And there are a lot of sessions around London...)
Once you have befriended some people (and maybe spent some time with them outside of the sessions, learning tunes from them, etc), they will start to invite you to play at the sessions, even though you're a beginner. If you're good company, and fun to hang out with, they won't mind that you sit there, listening most of the night, playing only occasionally... Even if you only know 10 tunes! But while you're out there listening, you'll be new finding tunes that inspire you to learn them. And you'll be subconsciously learning the nuances of the music that make it sound Irish, which are pretty difficult to pick up without immersing yourself in it.
And I'll second TD&M's point. If you're having trouble with retention, or confusing some tunes with others a lot, then slow down your learning, and work on the tunes you know. For me, at least, the retention really becomes much stronger once I have played a tune in sessions a number of times.
The tune learning process does become much easier as you go on. It's a learned skill, and the more you do it, the better you get at it. On top of that, you may still be learning the ins and outs of your instrument, AND the Irish style all at the same time. The more comfortable you get will all of those factors, the better you will become at it.
The other thing I would mention is that it's a really good idea to learn new tunes by ear when you're first starting out, for a number of reasons. Not the least of which are that learning Irish tunes by ear also helps you learn the Irish style at the same time, because the music is so much more than just a bunch of notes strung together. And the more you learn by ear, the better you get at it, to the point where you will start picking up tunes in sessions, because you hear them every week. And you will eventually have a comfort level with both your instrument, and the music itself, where you will be able to play tunes without sitting and formally "learning" them.
Any list of more than a hundred/insert number of your choice is useless. Four/five/six/maybe ten tunes is achievable, so, as in so much in life, set an achievable but realistic target.
In fact, dragging the information out from long ago, targets need to be SMART
S specific
M measureable
A achievable
R realistic
T time constrained
*Not too sure about the phrase for T, but you get the gist.
Your friend says he's heard all of these at 'some' point over the past year. No wonder the list is so long.
Try and find out which ones are played regularly and also which are frequently played together as a set. There's nothing so disheartening as knowing a tune but not being able to 'switch on' quick enough to play it before the group changes to the next tune.
You don't mention what you play, this has a bearing. If it's an instrument that carries over the rest of the others (pipes/banjo/box) then you'll need to know the tunes well, if it's something that you can play quietly then you can play along and 'noodle' through the harder parts.
Stick with you're preferred instrument - don't be tempted to switch to a bodhran to play along with the tunes you don't know. You'll never learn them that way ( and there are too many goat beaters out there )
Above all, get out there, play as much as you can and don't bother about learning hundreds of tunes. You will get quicker at learning them, you will start to forget tunes you've already learned and you'll enjoy playing.
You have far more tunes there than you actually need to get started and even many regular session players won't have mastered all of these.
Theoretically, all you really need is *One* tune to join a session and it's possible that it might be one you don't even know the name of yet!
Of course, before "sitting in", you should introduce yourself and ensure that you are welcomed. If it's very busy and there's limited space, please ensure that the regular and more experienced players get an opportunity to play before you. Don't "hog" their seats.
However, you say it's a "big session" and this might indicate that you could quite easily sit on the fringes and be relatively unnoticed which is an ideal way to start. As long as you are not disrupting the proceedings, it won't really matter how many tunes you can play....even none, perhaps(?)....but each time you go along, you'll be able to do more.
I realise that I might be criticised for giving the above advice and I certainly wouldn't advise beginners(or anyone else, even) to just "sit in" on every session. It will always depend on the circumstances and set up.
Whoever gave you that list is a git. That isn't a list of what their session plays, it is the index page of a tune book somewhere.
Throw away the list of 900 tunes. Every session has a handful of favourites that come round every week, and it is those six or eight tunes you need to learn to start with. Once you have a few of those you can sit in, and be fairly sure that you will be able to play at some point. Once you are sitting in, you will begin to know what other tunes you want to learn - concentrate on tunes you particularly like, don't learn stuff just because everyone else plays it.
Always remember that sessions are about learning and sharing tunes, not performing. Unless you are leading a set no one really cares whether you are playing or not. So if you really want to contribute to the session don't worry about learning the tunes they play (that will come naturally with time) but find a cracking tune they DON'T play, learn it well enough to lead it, and give it to the group.
I agree with skreech. Your mate might be taking the p*ss a bit, as that's obviously an index page copied from a tune book.
Can anyone actually come up with a perfectly alphabetized list of every tune their session has played at "some" point?
Didn't think so.
The other thing to do is take a wee recording device, ask their permission of course, and record some of the tunes and sets you like and learn those by ear.
The most important thing about learning a few tunes at one go like this is to learn them in alphabetical order - then it's easier to remember them all.
Greg has summed my views up to a tee. In fact I started by learning one jig, one reel, and one hornpipe, it worked for me and I then proceeded to learn more as it took my fancy. Of course that was on my whistle. On my bodhran I can play every jig, reel, hornpipe etc ever written, and do it instantly!! LOL
The original post may well have been a joke or a wind-up, sara. But that doesn't mean that the subsequent discussion is any less interesting, or helpful to beginners. Several other newer players have chimed into the thread, and there has been some good advice disseminated, which might help any number of other players.
Which is a lot better than a lot of wind-up threads, which might just devolve into bickering
"Isn't that going to take a long time? I'm learning about three or sometimes four a week at the moment"
At four tunes per week a little over 4 years & 3 months.
3 - Highlands
4 - Set dances
5 - Marches
6 - Barndances
6 - Mazurkas
9 - Miscellaneous
12 - English tunes
12 - Waltzes
20 - Slides
30 -Slip Jigs
41 - Hornpipes
61 - Polkas
211 - Jigs
467 - Reels
~ 887
The other thing you can do is tape a CD of tunes you want to learn to your head and go around for a few days wearing aforesaid CD (you'll look like a tool, but so what). The tunes will seep into your head from the CD via osmosis.
This also works for biology exams, except it kinda sucks to wear a biology textbook like a hat all day.
Even better, you only have to count the even numbers. On the odd occasion where there's an odd number just mimic a bag of potatoes emptied down a stair and nobody will be any the wiser.
There are some seriously geeky, obsessive, engineer type musicians in this world who love lists. Knowing a few of them, and seeing some of their eye-troubling spreadsheets with color coding and what not, I assumed the OP's mate was one. Lucky him/her.
Considering the OP has been going to the same session with his/her old school chum for two years, one would think he's already picking them up. He/she says as much re: rate of learning.
I personally like to keep a list of tune names because for whatever reason, they don't get played regularly, and if I look back at the names I'll pull them off the brain shelf and dust them off.
'eye troubling spreadsheets'. LOL. Funny.
I can't remember tune names now that I have ditched the dots and learning by ear. Can't take a trick me! Just like llig I guess, in that regard. LOL.
To the OP. I used to ask for lists of tunes to learn, simply because I didn't know any better. I understand what you want to do, you want to be able to contribute to your local session and play most of the sets. Sooner or later you're going to have to abandon the lists notion and just learn what you like, simple as that. Jon Kiparsky had the best post so far, listen at the session, don't be concerned about playing on every set, and just ask what the name of a tune is when you hear one that you like. Then learn that tune. You can find a recording, or, if you have an mp3 recorder, ask permission of the group and record the sets for your own learning. Just don't be upset if anybody objects and respect their wishes. I've met some players that learn all the tunes so they can play on every set, and they sound like a Foinn Seisiun CD.
Oh, and by the way, yes, learning alot of tunes IS going to take you a long time. Count on it taking years, and you probably STILL won't feel comfortable with what you know.
I'm in a bit of a quandary over number of tunes to work on. The repeated advice here is that it is better to know a few tunes well than a lot not so well.
But what with it being easier to get the feel for similarities and differences when one knows at least three of four jigs etc, and throwing in a few slower tunes, and somehow ending up knowing almost dozen polkas, and getting better at learning by ear, it doesn't take long to get to being able to play through basic versions of three dozen tunes, but none of them very well and some not really at a stage for trying to play with a patient friend.
It does take a long time, and that's the beauty of it. This is not a job to be done, a checklist to be filled in, it's a life to be lived. I'll be happy if it takes me all the time I have left, and I wish you the same.
I'm just getting my list out to rattle out a few tunes right now. I went back to working from a list not long ago, I forget fewer tunes and I find it easier to focus.
I think the best advice I was given was not to stick too long on the same tunes, but keep learning new stuff and periodically revisit the older material as what was tough last month, courtesy of your new stuff, is now easier to get the fingers around, hence why I find a list helpful just to keep track of it all.
As a beginner I did in fact "sit in" on sessions and just listened for the best part of a year, and it must have been after about 9 months or so that I felt my playing was strong enough (just) to play a tune on my own. As I remember (it was 9 years ago), it was a slow Planxty Irwin right at the end of the evening when people were starting to pack their instruments away.
There is an advantage to a slow start and just listening until you start to get on top of technique - you hear and absorb a lot of tunes and the way they're played.
Even now, there's probably 25% of an average session where I'll be listening and not playing.
Don't worry, it's all about enjoying music.
"Will I get to learn them faster after a while, do you think? Do people get faster at learning tunes?"
Yes. Assuming you stay interested in the music and keep playing in sessions, you'll reach a point where you can pick a tune in a couple of hearings (or even a single hearing). You might 'forget' it immediately afterwards, but it will come back to you each subsequent time you hear it.
Your friends list might represent a typical selection of tunes for a session player with a moderate-sized repertoire (some players know thousands). But, of itself, it is not of much use - by default, you learn the tunes which you hear most often, whether that be through listening to your favourite CDs or going to sessions.
The more sessions you go to, the more repertoire you will acquire, and the tunes you learn will depend on location. For example: at sessions in Ireland, you are unlikely to come across any of the English tunes listed; you are only likely to hear that many slides and polkas around Cork and Kerry; highlands are mostly played in Co. Donegal.
In short, begin by learning a handful of tunes. Then relax, enjoy the music and let the tunes soak in.
well you say you have 3 dozen, so Id suggest you consolidate those.
I go through stages; some times I am learning new tunes everyday, then i will go through phases of months where I dont really learn new tunes but rather consolidate what I have .
As I play a number of instruments I also phase these, concentrating on one or two and just maintaining the others.
So then I will be spending time transferring tunes from one instrument to another . This means that the variations and ornaments I employ will also vary . Runs and ornaments from one instrument will simply not work on another.
This way I become very familiar with the melody and can see clearly what is and is not ornamentation.
So what works for me is spending say a month learning new tunes then another month consolidating them on one instrument, then another months transferring those tunes over. and cycle through this. This was not a conscious decision, but just what has developed naturally over the years.
For the OP, I echo Jon Kiparsky; learn the tunes you like.
However, In my experience I find often that the tunes I 'like' are actually tunes I have heard a lot over the years . So my suggestion is buy a bunch of Cd's and listen to them over and over. [ there is a list of players in my bio] This is what I do. ...
Or simply record the session and play it a thousand times.
For example I have a Pat Mitchel recording on my phone that I must have listened to hundreds of times over the last few months.
I started a list a while back, on manuscript paper, with the name of the tune and the first couple of bars, just to jog my memory. I add to it when I think of it and keep it in my fiddle case for reference, if needed (it seldom is). I kind of like watching the list grow. And of course, once I have the tunes glued into my brain and fingers, the notes are superfluous.
I like being able to take a look and remind myself of what I haven't played in a while so I can bring it to the surface - as someone said, dust it off.
And what I've learned the most, acknowledging that I still know next-to-nothing in the grand scheme of things, is none of this tune-learning business can be in a hurry.
I like what Jon K said, it's not a job or a list, but a life to be lived. Good words.
See my member bio for links to more useful lists of reels, jigs, slip jigs, hornpipes, and polkas.
Lately, seems my active repertoire of tunes is in the 1,200 range. But they're never the right ones when I travel to other sessions. Which is good because I always get to learn new ones.
Playing in sessions tends to place a premium on knowing a lot of tunes, even if all you do is bang out the notes. But that's not really playing this music. And many sessions are dismal because of that approach. Far better, I think, to "live inside" the tunes you know, so that they are alive and fresh each time you play them.
I need hardly add to the well-said point that working from a list like that, taking it as a target, is completely to miss the point. It will also probably be very discouraging, and is more likely to put you off the music than help you into it. Others have said this better than I.
But... as a keeper of lists myself, I find it unlikely but conceivable that the OP's mate has collected this information, assuming he has a *very* wide knowledge of tunes. I couldn't possibly do it, as I don't know enough tunes to recognise their names, not by far. But if I did, it would not be hard then to keep an Excel list of what was played, along with whatever other information suits the purpose, whatever that is. With the data collected, sorting by name and type would be trivial.
The thing is, to realize at an early stage that lists have a value, and keep one in your computer from near the beginning. Then it can grow effortlessly in whatever way you want. And yes, reminding myself of half-forgotten tunes is one of its particular values.
Like any tool, a list is great for its proper purpose, but not the one proposed by the OP (or mate).
It can be difficult learning entire tunes at once and daunting if you need to suddenyl learn many tunes quickly.
My personal advice is to learn a whole bunch of tunes note at a time. Learn the first note of all 200 (or so tunes), lets face it how hard can that be? Then once you've got all those notes down learn the second note to each tune etc.
The beauty of this system is that right from the get go you can join in with at least part of every tune on the list. Note only that but you'll start to see patterns develope: the Blarney Pilgrin starts on a "D", why do does the Kesh !
Of course if you learn jigs and reels/hornpipes at the same time with this meathod you have to add in a bunch of rests at the end of the jigs to keep everything in synch (jigs have fewere note). Make sure that the rests are of the correct length, a rest is a note just like any other (only a bit quieter). if you play flute or whistle now is a good time to breathe.
When you actually play the tunes however, you will have to remove the extra rest-notes from the jigs. This can be quite confusing at first, but persevere! The second time through, of three, you can always put the rests back in as a variation. Although this might catch out the less adapatable members of a session.
Really the only practical alternative to this appraoch IMHO is to pick just one or two tunes that you actually like, and that you have heard played once or twice locally, and have fun with them. But that strikes me as a tad defeatist.
Whatevre you do have fun ninglepingle. Enjoy the tunes (notes?) that you learn, that is more important than worrying about the tunes you haven't got to yet.
Oh sh*t. I haven't even started on the second octave g, a or b yet. I'd better look in the database quick to find some. Ah, but hang on a minute, am I allowed to count the notes on the first downbeat ? If so there is a g hiding behind a pickup d.
Yes, I did just scan down my list with ABC of the first couple of bars. Curious that, for example, the only three starting Fs where reels and that included was two out of the three 'fully irish' (maybe) ones.
I still find more inconceivable than not, that this is an actual list of what an actual session in London plays. Considering most musicians don't know the names of a significant number of tunes they play, compiling such a list would be difficult to say the least. Also, a few years ago I played in a lot of London sessions and the distribution of tunes played did not correlate with this list. There is no way they played that many hornpipes, slides, and slip jigs, you were lucky if you heard one or two barn dances, set dances, or Highlands, and no one was playing English tunes at all. Could be a different London session than any I went to, but the types of tunes played by all the London sessions I played in were pretty consistent with the types of tunes played at Irish sessions everywhere else. Which consists of heaps of reels and jigs (usually more reels), and only a few hornpipes, polkas, barn dances, etc.
Consider a 3-hour session, 2 minutes per tune each played 3 times - this means a max of 90 tunes are going to be played, assuming no breaks whatsoever and all played at that (fairly brisk) speed. To me, this implies, for sessions in a given locality, a working knowledge of about 100 tunes should be enough for a comfort zone. As time goes by that number will increase without you being aware of it.
For a general list of tunes you could do worse than to click on Members/Tunebook where you'll see a massive list of thousands starting with the most popular one, "Drowsy Maggie". Just work through the top 100 and you'll be fine.
A few years back, when I was still on my Irish music honeymoon, just out of curiosity, I wanted an idea of how many tunes were in my repertoire. So, as a starting point, I used Henrik Norbeck's collection (which then contained 800 tunes - not exhaustive by any means but representative of the most common session tunes), looking through the index and eliminating all those I did not know, referring to the dots for those I was unsure about. Thus I came up with an approximate figure. Of course, it didn't account for those that I knew but didn't know the names of (although, at that time I knew the names of most of the tunes I played - I clearly didn't know enough tunes), or the ones that were not in Henrik's collection - and falsely accounted for those which I thought I knew but didn't really.
So, I'm guessing that the OP's friend did something like that - going through an existing collection, or a few collections, and eliminating those he had not heard in the last year.....or he/she just has an exceptionally good memory, or is a compulsive recorder of things.
About a year ago I recorded a 2-1/2 hour session in its entirety. Going on memory (I have yet to track down the recording on a backup drive), I believe we played about 50 tunes in that time (which equates to about 60 for 3 hours). There is a core of tunes that get played every week, a further number that aren't played every week but you would certainly expect them to come up again within a month, and a small number of one-offs usually played solo which may possibly be repeated a week or so later by the original player.
I don't propose to list the tunes here because that session is mainly an English session, albeit with a respectable sprinkling of Irish, Scottish and French tunes, so it would't be all that helpful to the OP.
Thanks all for the replies. It really made me think.
It is a fact that John (name changed) is quite geeky, and I know he keeps track of a lot of stuff, so I was not all that surprised to get his list. But you've made me wonder how he really made it. I'll try to ask when I next can.
But thanks for the good advice. I'll be takin' a more relaxed approach from now!
Lazyhound, not to argue, but I'm not sure I agree with your assumptions for calculating the number of tunes needed for a session. Unless I'm really misunderstanding your post, or one of us has a distorted view of what a typical session is. (Which given that I live in Montana USA is probably a safe bet. )
I'd wager it's closer to 30 seconds for a typical 2-part jig once through and under 40 seconds for a 32 bar reel, at least at the pace typical to sessions I'm familiar with. Factor that against a 4 to 6 hour session (do people really do 2.5 and 3 hour sessions? Aren't you just getting warmed up?), and I get in the neighborhood of 160 tunes to 240 tunes. Which strikes me as much more realistic, based on my own experience. And the following week may only feature 40% or 30% of those same tunes.
LOL, as though sessions are reducible to averages and percentiles....
Hmmm ... given that you're going to play tunes more than once each, I'd say it's 2 minutes per tune (on average), and, in any case, you;d struggle to get through more than 30 tunes per hour. (Probably more like 20, by the time you've had a bit of chatting and faffing.)
Even so, I'd agree with the apparent implication of Miss L - you need a thousand tunes to be able to keep up in most average sessions, not a hundred. (This is because I would hope that it was much *less* than 30% of tunes get repeated next time round.)
One sad thing to note - in the UK, 2 hour sessions seem to be the norm. They dont get going 'til gone 9pm and they tend to finish soon after 11. Pathetic, isn't it?
Just out of curiosity, I may try to keep track of our TPH (tunes-per-hour) at tomorrow night's session here. We usually play at least 4 hours on Thursdays. Though the pace and tune choices vary from week to week depending on which usual suspects sit in.
EB, yeah, I prefer it when the tunes repeated one week to the next are less than 20%, but that's up to the group as a whole. As long as the repeated tunes aren't tethered to the same sets as before, it doesn't bother me if the percentage is higher.
Shame about those truncated sessions. What with tuning, reed tweaking, adding electrical tape, adjusting straps, and filling the bag, how does a piper ever get a tune out in just two hours?
croxxy, it's allegedly a year's list of tunes. Lots of trad players have personal repertoires of 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes. No, they don't play them all in one sitting, but neither is it unusual at festivals or weekend gatherings to play tunes for 6 or 8 or 12 hours, with just brief breaks for beer and the loo.
From my own experience I agree with ethical blend's comment about pub sessions in England - the timing is controlled by the management, and 2-1/2 - 3 hours max is not untypical here. (Of course, we could discuss the "quality v quantity" question ad infinitum/nauseam, but I'm not going to - life is too short )
In my post http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24280/comments#comment506972 I was suggesting a "comfort zone" of about 100 tunes as being suitable for a beginner to acquire - the OP is a beginner - and hinted that the number would increase naturally as time goes on. This scenario differs significantly from that of players with many years experience who are accustomed to sessions far longer than 3 hours.
Jeez, Lonelyhearts, I thought I knew some "tuneheads and steamreelers" myself, but people with personal repertoires of 3000 tunes? I will pray for them. If they are aged 73 and started in the music at their mother's knee, then well done. Otherwise I'm tempted to think tha it's just sad. No, not tempted - it IS sad.
And yes, 2.5 hour sessions are surely quite normal. My experience in Ireland was 10 pm to midnight or a bit later (occasionally 1.00 am or even later, but not usually). In other countries 8.00 pm to 10.00 or 10.30. What hours do you do your marathons?
And yes again, an average of between 20 and 30 tunes per hour is normal, unless people are banging on like desperadoes.
Lingpupa, it's not at all sad if all 3,000 are cracking tunes. Life is better with an internal soundtrack of great melodies. And bear in mind that some people pick up tunes more readily than others--it's not sad at all if you enjoy it, it comes naturally for you, and you still have plenty of time in your life for family and friends and work and sleep.
My regular weekly session starts around 6:30 pm or 7 pm, and generally runs till 11 pm, sometimes midnight. We play a lot of sets at typical dance tempos, sometimes faster, sometimes slower.
Last night's session - a great gathering at the home of one of the flute players, since the regular session has been discontinued - we started at around 8:30, and started trying to close up at around 12:30. Ended up leaving around 2:00, although one or two people stayed and as there was still some whiskey in the bottle, I suppose they probably played a little more.
I have no idea how many tunes we played, though.
I have an English and Irish version of a tune called 'Princess Royal' Both are fine to play but recognisably from a common root. There's a problem with this?
Not quite sure about the relevance of the last posting but my basic understanding of the tune is that the title refers a princess of one of the Irish royal lines; the Irish version is generally in G minor; and the English version is in G major (perhaps because that key sits better on the G/D box common in England?). Both versions are equally great to play, in my opinion.
Can't see anything wrong in changing a tune from minor to major, or vice versa, if the result is good to play.
> Lots of trad players have personal
> repertoires of 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes.
Forgive me for being cynical. Do you suppose that even one of these players would be willing to show us their list? Obviously it would be mere bravado to claim to know that many without having listed and counted them, so these players must all have written lists. Or at least some of them must, if there are "lots" of such players.
Some years ago I knew players who made the very reasonable claim that, while they did not know exactly, they believed that they knew quite a few hundred. It was conjectured by someone who studied Johnny O'Leary's playing (iirc it was Terry Moylan and Breandan Breathnach, but it's years since I saw the book, so memory is weak) that, while again the exact number was unknown, his repertoire must have been well over 1000. That was on the basis of having studied his playing, the known tunes, the frequency with which he came up with yet more, etc., so it was founded on evidence.
More recently I saw the claim that certain young players knew 2000 or more, a claim that was made in support of the idea that they were therefore good musicians.
Now we hear of players with 3000 tunes. OK, I'll buy it, if you can show us any evidence beyond a bit of macho self-preening on their part, or perhaps a bit of beer-talk. Until then I will remain unconvinced.
I think we average about 20-30 tunes per hour, for three hours of session. A song takes the place of two tunes, when song occurs. It makes me tired just to read about the pace, length, diversity, and number of tunes at a Miss Lonelyheart session. They sound like the musical equivalent of an Olympic team.
We're starting to look at the question of what "knowing" a tune means.
For the purpose of putting to the test those who claim to know 1000+ tunes I'd suggest the fairly strong definition of "knowing" as "being able to recall and play a tune when given its name".
A much weaker definition of "knowing" would have the player listening to a new tune in a session the first time through and then be playing it fairly accurately on the third time. Many experienced musicians can do this and an observer may think that the player "knows" the tune. The real test, though, is whether the player can recall the tune reasonably accurately the next day without prompting.
As an aside, I reckon 1000 tunes represents about 10 hours of music (give or take), which isn't an insuperable objective in itself. But, in my opinion quality should always trump quantity.
I've always thought the "Princess Royal" referred to was, as Groves thinks, Anne, who married William of Orange in 1734. The tune was published, certainly in London, and I think in dublin too, around 1730 as either "Princess Royal, the New Way" or "The New Princess Royal". Mudcat and the Fiddlers Companion have lots of good stuff on the tune's background and history.
Considering it was apparently composed by Carolan after 1688, that might have something to do with the name change, and/or the styling of it. It is apparently alternately known as Mrs McDermott Roe or Princess Royal.
Politically, I would have thought that you would have had to be on the safe side of the fence if you wanted to name a tune "Princess Royal" for someone other than the "Princess Royal" of England, if you were as famous as someone like Carolan.
Carolan would have been pretty safe, but hey, better to be safer than sorrier!
“Princess Royal was possibly composed for Mrs. Mary O'Rourke (also the subject of Mrs. O'Rourke). She was the eldest daughter of MacDermott, Prince of Coolavin. Another possible subject of the tune is Elizabeth MacDermott Roe (the subject of another tune - specifically named for her).” (http://www.contemplator.com/carolan/carol2.html)
I know that I have around 1,000 or 1,200 tunes in my own repertoire based on being able to play tunes 8 to 10 hours a day for a four-day weekend session and not run out of tunes. I dont need a list to prove it--I can just keep playing tunes. The last time I made a list of all the tunes I could play was maybe 6 years ago, and it contained over 700 tunes.
That's having played this music for three decades, mostly living in the hinterlands of the western US, far from the hotbeds of Irish trad. It would not surprise me at all that players with access to several sessions a week and a diverse crowd of good players well steeped in this music could amass several thousand tunes over their lifetimes. Paddy O'Brien (now living in Minnesota) figures he has around 3,000 tunes under his fingers. I've seen people like Paul O'Shaughnessey, Mary Rafferty, and Tom Doorley play for days on end without running dry of tunes. Of course they don't keep lists--why? Just to prove to some doubting Thomas on the net that they really can play 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes? Meh.
Mind you, this isn't about quantity over quality. It's just a simple fact of playing this music day in, day out over decades. At some point you become a decent player, and you can play all tunes with a fair measure of grace and style and nyah. And it's easy to learn new tunes--they're all idiomatic.
It's not like we're talking about huge pieces of music, either. 16 or 32 or even 64 bars of a tune isn't a lot to internalize. I also know several hundred rock songs on guitar, and I've lost track of how many songs and tunes I know for bluegrass, oldtime, and folk. None of this strikes me as unusual or reason for skepticism. You spend a lot of time playing music, you end up know a lot of music.
I must confess to being at a disadvantage. I've never seen *anybody* play for days on end (3000 tunes at 1m30s average per tune gives about 75 hours solid I think). If I ever did, I'm perfectly sure I would neither know nor care whether any of the tunes were repeated. It sounds like the ITM equivalent of Chinese water torture if you ask me, though whether worse for the player or the - presumably captive - audience is hard to say. So I think I have to leave the discussion here, with one final thought: Hmmm.
Lingpupa, I don't know why you're questioning the amount of tunes folk play. Quite simply, and as a rough guide, if you learn even 3 tunes a week then that's 150 odd tunes a year, 20 years would give you 3000 tunes.
It's pointless saying you'd like to see lists. I don't know anyone who's been playing for a long time that keeps lists of ALL their tunes, or cares about it. The only thing that matters is the next tune you like the sound of and want to learn, not the ones you already know.
Some folk love learning tunes, it's not a sin or sad or necessary but live and let live. I'll maybe learn 5 - 10 tunes a week, some of them will get played, others will get forgotten as soon as the novelty wears off, maybe to reappear years down the road, or maybe not. Most folk who know what seems like unfeasible amounts of tunes don't care about numbers, it's simply time and enthusiasm that creates big repertories. It would take quite an ego to learn 3000 tunes just for show.
I'm only questioning it because it has been thrown into the discussion by others, who say that lots of trad players have personal repertoires of 3,000 tunes. I dare say a few do. Good for them. But for goodness sake don't suggest that it's some kind of standard people "should" aim for or expect to reach, or that it's common. Yes, I can believe that a few do, but the evidence is extremely thin. We are asked to believe that people have been seen to play for 75 hours at a stretch, stopping only for essential revival, and that someone is watching and noticing that no tunes get repeated. Is it excessively cynical of me if I don't quite swallow it?
Anyway, I know a guy who has a repertoire of nearly 8000 tunes, AND has a list. And has sex within 12 seconds of coming off stage. And can drink a bottle of vodka in an hour and then drive at 150 kph - safely! With one hand.
This whole estimation of the number of tunes thing always goes poorly. Someone honestly tries to make an estimate, and everyone p*sses all over it.
Honestly, they're all made out of parts of each other anyway. So many patterns and familiar chunks of tune that always reappear in other tunes, etc. If that last sentence makes no sense to you keep at it, it will.
Lingpupa, I haven't read the whole thread through so I didn't realize folk were claiming that some sessions last 75 hours or that people "should" aim to have repertoires of 3000 tunes. That's obviously nonsense.
"Anyway, I know a guy who has a repertoire of nearly 8000 tunes, AND has a list. And has sex within 12 seconds of coming off stage. And can drink a bottle of vodka in an hour and then drive at 150 kph - safely! With one hand".
If it's the guy I'm thinking of he's lying about the sex, it's 4 bottles of vodka and it's usually someone else that dose the driving plus the apologies.
It's all your fault, ling. Don't be sorry.
Anyway, it's sometimes good craic to see people carryin' themselves away - usually late at night on the way out of bars, in my understanding.
Hopefully this thread is waning, as my next comments are simple banter. But before anything; Cheers! to Ninglepingle, at 1st I was skeptical but now I hope you'll be back on the forum. ;)
Wayback on the 1st post there is this, . . . "I'm learning about three or sometimes four a week at the moment, though sometimes I get mixed up between them and forget what they are. Will I get to learn them faster after a while . . . ? Do people get faster at learning tunes?" {Ninglepingle}
So I wondering what does one do between that & this, " . . . As an aside, I reckon 1000 tunes represents about 10 hours of music (give or take), which isn't an insuperable objective in itself. But, in my opinion quality should always trump quantity." {lazyhound}
This is brilliant & someday I hope to post something half as brilliant, "I've seen people like Paul O'Shaughnessey, Mary Rafferty, and Tom Doorley play for days on end without running dry of tunes. Of course they don't keep lists--why? Just to prove to some doubting Thomas on the net that they really can play 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes? Meh." {Miss Lonelyhearts}
& finally, because I have to leave soon, "So many patterns and familiar chunks of tune that always reappear in other tunes, etc." {SWFL Fiddler} ~ there are at least 1,000 to 2,000 responses to this, but they are all patterns & chunks from previous threads.
Ling, I never suggested or even implied that anyone "should" try to learn 3,000 tunes. That's just silly. You're taking simple statements made here and expanding them into absurdities. You also seem to have an axe to grind, though it's not clear what that is, or why.
I'm also not suggesting that "lots" of people know 3,000 tunes. But I've certainly played a fair amount with people who know many, many more tunes than I do, and as I said above, I quit counting years ago at about 700 tunes.
Once in a blue moon I get to spend a long weekend, or a week at a festival or camp, where people play tunes day in, day out, through the wee hours, and on into the next day, and the next. Sure, we stop for food, beer, a nap now and then, and loo breaks. During this time, some tunes do get repeated, but you're instantly aware when that happens, and the longer the sets go on, the more you hear obscure and interesting tunes drawn out of dusty memories.
These "marathon sessions" aren't some sort of mad tune feeding frenzy. In fact, they're usually more laid back than the average session because people realize they have lots of time to get all the tunes out, and we're there to socialize, too. There's no audience, captive or otherwise, and it's not torture--we're simply spending time playing the music that we love. I can assure you that it's way more fun than doing band or concert rehearsals 20 hours a week for weeks on end getting ready for a big gig....
One of these events is coming up next month. A bunch of us have been getting together every May for 6 or 7 years now, gathering at a house in the middle of no where in the American West to play tunes. It starts on Friday and ends on Monday (though I usually have to leave on Sunday to get back home). It's not at all unusual that the tunes are going from 8 am to 2 or 3 or even 4 am the next day, and a few hours later, it starts up again. Other players who come to this (and the hosts) know all the tunes I play and then they can go on to play for hours on tunes I don't know. So their repertoires are much larger than my own. And we're all just average session players, not professionals.
I don't see what's so dire about being passionate about and obsessed with this music. There are plenty of worse things to do with your time on the planet. And it's not like this is *all* we do. I have a happy well-rounded life--raised two well-adjusted boys, I hike, mountain bike, snowboard, read a lot, teach music and write (not about music) for a living, have friends who don't play music, etc. All my friends who enjoy playing this music are well educated, well rounded, diversely interesting folks.
Ling, your experience of this music may be different and perhaps narrower than someone else's. It can be hard to see and comprehend things that are beyond your own current horizons. That doesn't make them untrue.
BTW, our session at the pub last night was atypical. In the first hour or two, I think we averaged about 4.2 tunes per hour. LOL. Lots of craic. Someone was photographing a dog drinking a beer at our table, and they brought home made cookies. Plus there was an apple cobbler from another friend. And gossip to catch up on.
Anyway, I got there late, 7:20 pm or so, and the tunes had already been going. The last of us packed up at midnight. The later hours were more tune-filled, but I didn't stop to clock the rate--we were having too much fun bantering with a couple from out of town who knew enough about the music to request specific tunes, and who also had great senses of humor.
sounds brilliant, Will.
Billy Moran of Melbourne was like that. You couldn't outlast him at a session, even just as a listener. Australia does not have many left like that. http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12671/comments#comment259538
...and I would like to read what you write about not about music too.
duij, if you go to amazon.com you'll find some books I've written over the years. Mostly outdoor recreation stuff--hiking and biking guidebooks, and a couple on backcountry safety and "leave no trace" practices. "Wild Country Companion" (I detest the title, which the publisher came up with) has some fun stuff thanks to interviews I did with experts on things like camping in grizzly bear country, dealing with human waste on popular climbing mountains, and the human impacts on coral reefs. On the other end of the spectrum, I was a co-author of "The Western Confluence," a rather dry, textbook type read on the history of natural resource policy in the USA West.
what do you mean not buying any of these!! I would have done a google search on pdf's of them anyway, but hey. I like the sound of the natural resource stuff too, btw.
good musicians are often good writers too, in my observation. Not always but some.
Cheers.
Tune lists are subliminal too , I reckon. Share and share alike.
ML:
> Ling, I never suggested or even implied that anyone "should" try to learn 3,000 tunes.
For jumping to conclusions, which I did, I apologize.
> I'm also not suggesting that "lots" of people know 3,000 tunes
I think you said quite exactly that "lots of trad players" have repertoires of that order.
I do accept that there are some players who may well have repertoires of that sort of size. Johnny O'Leary may perhaps have had - we only have real evidence, however, for the number being well over 1000. And I am quite certain that grassroots players in that area who learnt traditionally would have repertoires extending down from the many hundreds to the few tens.
It would be tedious to rehearse the estimates of the numbers in full (I will if someone asks, but I hope they won't!), but my design engineering estimation habits still indicate that whereas it *could* be true that some of these people you know have repertoires of that size, your story does not actually provide much evidence - one has to stretch the figures quite hard even to approach 2000.
So again, for jumping to conclusions, I apologize. For taking your figures seriously enough to check their feasibility, I don't.
I remember getting in trouble here for challenging claims people make about knowing 'thousands of tunes', but when it came down to it the claimant confessed that they have only really heard that many tunes and is good at faking most of them. As for me, I can play at weekend tune orgies for days and repeat very few tunes, but I still don't think that would add up to anywhere near 'thousands' or even one thousand... if you think about it, you can't play more than a few hundred tunes in a weekend of sessioning, unless you count the ones you fake your way through maybe. But I usually only play the tunes I know so I might sit out my fair share of them. The bottom line is that how many you know is irrelevant... it's how well you play the ones you do know that counts.
Lingpupa, my exact quote was that "Lots of trad players have personal repertoires of 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes. " Obviously, fewer have 3,000 tunes than have 1,000 or 2,000. You can work at splitting that hair some more if you want.
In the case that Jack cites, he mistook "several" thousand for "seven," when Devin meant in the neighborhood of a couple thousand tunes. I never saw a retraction from Devin to the effect that he is just "good at faking most of them." What I saw Devin post was that he was good at picking them up on the fly and playing them. Jack in spinning what Devin said, despite never having played with the lad. Perhaps we should ask Liz Carroll and some other folks who have played with Devin....
Many good session players learn their tunes by gradually absorbing them over weeks and months and years and a lifetime of hearing them played and playing along in sessions until they do in fact know the tunes. This isn't "faking" it at all. That's purely Jack's interpretation, based on his own experience, which by his own account (insistence, more like it) doesn't allow much if at all for picking up tunes on the fly at sessions. So, of course, if Jack doesn't do that, he's not going to understand how well it works for people who are good at it. And how well the tunes stick when learned that way.
No doubt people who must "work up" a tune, specifically focusing on that single task in a finite time, to feel that they have actually learned it, would have a real difficulty comprehending how it works to learn tunes by osmosis. For example, in earlier threads, Jack mentioned having the osmosis experience a few times, but it sounded like it was an infrequent or even rare experience for him, not a normal or preferred mode of learning tunes. If I recall his descriptions right, it sounded like he found it pleasant and rewarding but slightly startling.
As to how many tunes you can play over a long weekend, I never said a thousand or two thousand tunes get played in that time frame. But what I know from personal experience is that I can play many hundreds of tunes over 3 or 4 days and drive home with a head full of tunes that ***didn't*** get played. And the other people at the session often comment on the same phenomenon, "regretting" the tunes left out.
In the long run, it doesn't bother me at all if a few people on a net forum are skeptical of the abilities and knowledge of people I've met and know in meatspace. It's not even surprising. Many people underestimate their own abilities to learn things (e.g. learning music by ear) and their memory capacity. So I can understand how readily they'd dismiss people who exceed their sense of reality.
Meh. In the end, we may disagree about the tally, but we seem to agree on what i said in a post way, way up the thread:
"It's not about how many tunes you know but how well you play the tunes you do know.
When you can play really well, then it's about how many tunes you know.
You will never know enough tunes.
Don't rush it--of course it's going to take a long time. That's the point. This tradition isn't a microchip you swallow and gain instant mastery of. The experience of learning this music *is* nirvana. There is no subsequent destination. Enjoy the moment, then let it go. Enjoy the next moment, then let it go. Lather, rinse repeat."
Oh Yeah?.......My dad knows the Kesh...........And.......Ah.......
Well....... my dad can beat your dad up while blindfolded with one hand tied behind his back, in his sleep, while benchpressing 1000 lbs and playing The Kesh on fiddle, pipes, box, flute and bodhran all at the same time. The only tune he knows is the Kesh and that's the only one he needs to know cause he's the toughest and he plays it better than anyone! He's my dad and he rules! He doesn't care how many stoopid tunes you know!
So there......you loser!
Go ahead and misrepresent things Jack. It's your standard mode here. Welcome back.
"Picking up on the fly = faking"
Wow--I can't imagine a statement that would better reveal how little you understand the process of ***learning*** (which includes retaining) tunes on the fly.
Funny, I sometimes get the same reaction when people find out I'm a juggler. They'll ask how many objects I can keep in the air and when I tell them 5 clubs or 7 balls, some folks just don't believe it. Until I show them. The possibility of someone juggling 7 balls is just too far outside their own experience of the world, so they assume I'm just boasting--faking it. Until I show them. And even then, some people will ask me to show them the 7 balls in my hands held still and to then juggle them again so they be sure I'm not pulling some sort of trick on them.
Sorry, but I find it a bit arrogant and ignorant when people insist that reality is only what they can see within their myopic horizons.
Lingpupa, why does it take this individual an hour to drink a bottle of vodka? And is he playing tin whistle with the other hand while driving 150 mph with one hand ? Now if he's got the vodka in one hand, the whistle in the other, driving with his knees...maybe an hour if he's trying to make it to the ocean OK.
Otherwise....EFing loser.
Back to the topic... I'm still waiting for that feeling that I know enough tunes... I doubt that day will ever come though. I used to play the bodhran and roll ciggies for people when I didn't know the tune... but I have since given up the ™Drum and seem to usually leave the bodhran at home these days... so I guess that's a good sign.
Learning tunes blows hot & cold for me, if I'm really enthused and maybe busked through a tune the night before whilst out I can get up in the morning pull up the dots (or work it up if it's a tune I happen to know but just ain't playing it well enough or as well as I thought I had it) and sort it. Then there are the painful ones that seem to take forever. I think my problem is down to how I start off, if it's like i describe above it's fast and painless but if I put up my own personal barriers it can be long and tedious.
I've a 6 part pipe reel on the go like that. I learned the first two parts a few years ago and I've just decided to nail it while I've a little time on my hands at the moment as it's started to weigh on me like an unfinished letter, it's been a nightmare committing the last 4 parts to memory. I know the tune well enough but I just keep tripping myself up mixing the wrong elements of the first 2 parts into the other 4. It's square now bar the last part which I'll maybe nail today or tomorrow (it's a barset). One good thing I've found when I learn tunes this way is that once it's there it's there for good.
Learning tunes on the fly is something I've surprised myself with. I don't regard myself as a particularly good player of tunes but if a tune is straight forward enough I can have a functional version quite quickly, if the circumstances are right. I've watched good players do this with a tune where they absolutely nail a tune after a once through, impressive, I think I should qualify this by saying these are "very good" players, the sort of players that "I" regard as very good will quake when this type of player sits in with the company. I think it's something you need to be doing regularly to get good at it and years to get very good at. I know from years of accompaniment that there are many analytical tricks that can be employed to make a good job of something you've never heard before, lol unless it's in say 7/8 with a few unexpected twists and turns, it's the same for melody players but a different skill set much more focused on detail, I just haven't got that that well developed yet as I don't perhaps know my instrument and the music as well as I could.
Then there seem to be tunes that just happen by osmosis where you just find yourself playing them. Or in the case of one tune, some years ago, I woke in the night with this tune going through my head got up and worked out the bit I could remember. Went back to bed and when I awoke next morning and checked it out I found it was the 3rd part of Bunkerhill, I was playing it by lunchtime, not brilliantly but a working version.
How many tunes have I got? More than I realise and much less than I should, I think is the correct answer. Ask me in another 10 years I think, ha ha................. the answer will be the same, even with my list.
I'm clearly not meant to post this - this is the thrid time of trying, so it is decidely truncated.
Gist: refers way up-thread. Sorry. duij, agree with reasoning *if* you think Princess Royal is by O'Carolan. I don't. I think it was pre-existing English tune, and not aware of attested origin for it earlier than about 1725 or so, in London. If English, then more likely to be about Anne.
[Gosh, my earlier versions of this post were much nicer. Bear with me, duij, I only wanted to point out that there's no definitive answer on this one. Let's hope this posts ... ]
According to Dónal O'Sullivan's 'Carolan: The Life and Times of an Irish Harper', the tune 'Miss MacDermott' (aka 'The Princess Royal') was most definitely a Carolan composition and was most probably written for the eldest daughter of The MacDermot of Coolavin (an old Irish family whose male line were sometimes referred to as princes).
I know, Bronstein, I know. But there are equally many sources saying that it definitely wasn't an O'Carolan composition as there are saying that it was. Groves, for instance. My point being simply that we don't know for sure.
Confused about learning tunes
Confused about learning tunes
I only just joined, but I've been reading here a few months and I saw discussions about learning tunes. I've been learning for a year now, just over. So I've been going to a big session for two years, thats' why I got started, and I know one of the main players, he's an old schoolmate and we are still in touch.
He gave me this list of tunes (it's below), and said he'd heard all these at our session (in London) over the last year at one time or another. He says he doesn't know them all to play, but most of them, and that if I want to start joining in at the session I should get to know at least a third, or really a half of them, then go on and learn the rest.
Isn't that going to take a long time? I'm learning about three or sometimes four a week at the moment, though sometimes I get mixed up between them and forget what they are. Will I get to learn them faster after a while, do you think? Do people get faster at learning tunes? I guess I'm fairly normal at music. I played guitar and clarinet for several years, passed a few exams, played a bit in amateur orchestras, that sort of thing. Nothing special, but not nothing.
Anyway, here's the list - what do you think?
* Barndances
Chaffpool Post
Curlew Hills
Dances at Kinvara
Lucy Farr's Barndance
Martin Hayes’ Barn Dance
Tara Diamond's
* Set dances
Bluebell Polka
King of the Fairies
Napoleon Crossing the Alps
Blackbird
* English tunes
Princess Royal
Rose Tree
Highland Mary
Shepherd's Hay
Young Johnson
Nutting Girl
Bacup #1
Brighton Camp
Jimmy Allen
Sally Lucas
Winster Gallop
Up the Sides and Down the Middle
* Highlands
If It Wasn't For The Women of the World
Munlochy Bridge
Keel Row
* Hornpipes
An Comhra Donn
Bantry Bay
Belfast Hornpipe
Big John's Hornpipe
Bonaparte Crossing The Rhine
Boys of Blue Hill
Chief O'Neill's Favourite
City of Savannah
Clareman’s
Cork Hornpipe
Cronin's
Cuckoo’s Nest
Delahanty's
Doris Browne’s
Drunken Sailor’s
Fairies Hornpipe
Galway
German
Golden Castle Hornpipe
Goodnatured Man
Green Grow the Rashes O
Greencastle
Her Long Dark Hair Was Flowing Down Her Back
Hills Of Coore
Kildare Fancy
Lewis Proudlock’s
Liverpool Hornpipe
Madam Bonaparte
Murphy's Hornpipe
Navvie on the Line
Off to California
Plains of Boyle
Pretty Maggie Morrissey
Red Haired Boy
Rickett's Hornpipe
Rights of Man
Sailor's Hornpipe
Shaskeen Clog
Stack of Barley
Trumpet Hornpipe
Whistle Up the Cat
* Jigs
Aaron’s Key
Andy De Jarlis’
Apples in Winter
Austin Barret's
Banish Misfortune
Bank of Turf
Banks Of Lough Gowna
Battering Ram
Behind the Haystack
Biddy The Bold
Bill Harte’s
Bill Sullivan’s
Black Rogue
Blackthorn Stick
Blarney Pilgrim
Blue Idol
Bluebells Are Blooming
Bohola
Boys of Coomanore
Boys Of Tanderagee
Boys of the Town
Brady’s
Brid Harper’s
Bridal Jig
Buck in the Woods
Burnt Old Man
Butcher’s March
By Golly
Calliope House
Carraroe
Castle
Castletown Connors
Child of My Heart
Christy Barry’s
Clare Jig
Cliffs of Moher
Coleraine
Condon’s Frolics
Connaughtman’s Rambles
Cook in the Kitchen
Coppers and Brass
Cowboy Jig
Culcrevie
Cullen
Curragh
Dancing Eyes
Dandy Bash
Doctor O’Neill’s
Donnybrook Fair
Drunken Gauger
Dusty Windowsills
Eavesdropper
Emmett’s Hedgehog
Fasten The Leggin’
Father O'Flynn
Flowers Of Spring
Foggy Dew (English jig)
Fraher's
Frieze Britches
Frost is All Over
Full Rigged Ship
Gallagher's Frolics
Gander in the Pratie Hole
Garrett Barry's
Geese In The Bog
Gillan's Apples
Glasgow Gaelic Club
Gold Ring
Hag At The Churn
Hag With The Money
Hag’s Purse
Happy To Meet, Sorry To Part
Hare in the Corn
Haste to the Wedding
Haunted House
Have A Drink With Me
Hawthorn Hedge
Health To Ladies
High Part Of The Road
Hughie Travers’
Humours Of Ballyloughlin
Humours Of Drinagh
Humours of Glendart
Humours Of Lisheen
Humours Of Trim
I Buried My Wife and Danced on Her Grave
I Ne’er Shall Wean Her
Idle Road
Ingonish
Irish Washerwoman
Jackson’s Morning Brush
Jig of Slurs
Jimmy Neary’s
Jimmy Ward's
Joe Derrane’s
Joe John Kelly’s
Josie’s Visit
Joy of My Life
Kerfunten Jig
Kesh
Kilfenora
Killavil Jig
Knocknagow
Langstrom’s Pony
Langstrom's Pony
Lannigan's Ball
Lark in the Morning
Lark On The Strand
Larry O'Gaff
Legacy
Lietrim Fancy
Life is all Chequered
Lilting Banshee
Lilting Fisherman
Lost And Found
Loughing Spoons
Luaithreadán’s
Lucy Farr’s
Maid at the Well
Maid in the Meadow
Maid On The Green
March From Oscar And Malvina
Matt Hayes’
Merry Old Woman
Michael Dwyer’s
Mist Covered Mountain
Mist On The Meadows
Monaghan Jig
Monk's Jig
Mooncoin Jig
Morning Lark
Morrison's
Mouse In The Kitchen
Mug Of Brown Ale
Muireann’s
Munster Bacon
Munster Buttermilk
My Darling Asleep
Nightingale
Nina’s
Old Flail
Old Hag You Have Killed Me
Old Joe’s
Old Tipperary
Out on the Ocean
Oyster Girl
Paddy Clancy's
Paddy Fahy's
Paddy O’Rafferty
Paddy’s Return
Palm Sunday
Pay The Reckoning
Pipe On The Hob #1
Pipe On The Hob #2
Pull The Knife And Stick It In Again
Queen Of The Fair
Quilty Shore
Rakes Of Clonmel
Rakes Of Kildare
Rambles Of Mike
Rambling Pitchfork
Richard Brennan's
Right of Way
Roaring Barmaid
Rollicking Boys Of Tanderagee
Rolling Waves
Rose in the Heather
Saddle the Pony
Scatter the Mud
Scotsman Over the Border
Sean Bu
Sean Ryan's
Shandon Bells
Sheep In The Boat
Ship in Full Sail
Sixpenny Money
Sliabh Russell
Smash the Windows
Spórt
Sporting Pitchfork
Square House
Stan Chapman’s
Steamboat Quickstep
Strayaway Child
Strike The Gay Harp
Strop the Razor
Swallowtail Jig
Swedish Jig
Tar Road to Sligo
Tatter Jack Walsh
Tell Her I Am
Tenpenny Bit
Thompson’s
Three Sea Captains
Timmy Clifford’s
Tobin's
Tom Billy’s
Tongs By The Fire
Top of Cork Road
Trip to Athlone
Trip To Killavil
Trip to Sligo
Trip To The Cottage
Tripping up the Stairs
Up And About In The Morning
Up in the Air
Walls of Liscaroll
Wheels Of The World
Whistling Postman
Willie Coleman’s
Woodcock
* Marches
Dawning of the Day
Foggy Dew
Minstrel Boy
Return to Fingal
Sean South
* Mazurkas
John Doherty's Mazurka
Old Donegal Mazurka
Rachel On The Rock
Shoe the Donkey
Sunny's Mazurka
Vincent Campbell's Mazurka
* Miscellaneous
Athol Highlanders
Cold Frosty Morning
Da Slockit Light
Hobart’s Transformation
Jig of Slurs
Mountains of Pomerory
New Ridded Ship
Possum up a Gumstump
Sweets of May
* Polkas
Ailbe Grace’s
Ballydesmond Polka #1
Ballydesmond Polka #2
Ballydesmond Polka #3
Ballyvourney Polka
Battle of Aughrim
Bill Sullivan's
Black Rock
Britches Full of Stiches
Brosnan's #0
Brosnan's #1
Can't You Dance the Polka
Church Street Polka
Dalaigh's
Dark Girl Dressed in Blue
Denis Murphy's Polka
Din Tarrant's
Egan's
Farewell to Whiskey
Ger the Rigger
Hamilton's Polka #2
Hamilton's Polka #3
I'll Tell Me Ma
Jenny Lind
Jessica's
Jim Keefe’s
John Ryan's
Kerry Cow
Lakes of Sligo
Little Diamond
McKeever's #1
McKeever's #2
McKeever's #3
Maggie in the Wood
Magic Slipper
Maids of Ardagh
McDonagh's Polka
Merry Girl
My Aunt Jane
New Roundabout
O’Sullivan’s
O'Grada's #1
Oh Nellie
O'Keefe's
O'Sullivan's Polka
Pat Horgan’s #1
Peg Ryan’s Fancy
Rakes of Mallow
Rakes Polka
Rattling Bog
Sweeney’s
Tar Abhaile
Tom McGowan’s
Toormore Polka #1
Trady Reagan
Tralee Jail
Tripping on the Mountain
Tripping to the Well
Tureengarbh Glen
Up and Away
Walsh's
* Reels
A Fair Wind
A Long Way From Home
A Night In Ennis
Abbey Reel
Abbeyleix
After the Battle of Aughrim
Aggie Whyte’s
Ah, Surely!
Aine’s Invitation
Ambrose Moloney’s
Anderson’s
Antrim Rose
Anything for Jonjo
Are You Ready Yet?
Ashplant
Aughacashel
Bag Of Spuds #1
Bag Of Spuds #2
Bank of Ireland
Banks Of The Illen
Banshee
Barge Inn
Barrowburn
Beare Island Reel
Beauty Spot
Belles Of Tipperary
Big John MacNeill's
Bird in the Bush
Black Pat's
Blackberry Blossom
Black-eyed Sailor
Blackhaired Lass
Blacksmith’s
Blackthorn
Blockers
Bloom Of Youth
Bob McQuillen’s
Bobby Casey's Reel
Boil the Breakfast Early
Boil the Kettle Early
Bond Store
Bonnie Anne #1
Bonnie Anne #2
Bonnie Kate
Boogie
Boy in the Boat
Boys Of Ballisodare
Boys of Malin
Boys of Portaferry
Boys of the Lough
Boys On The Hilltop
Brenda Stubbert's
Brendan McMahon’s
Broken Pledge
Bucks of Oranmore
Bunch Of Currants
Bunch Of Green Rushes
Bunch of Keys
Bunker Hill
Bus Stop
Bush In Bloom
Cameronian Reel
Cape Breton Fiddler’s Welcome To Shetland
Captain Kelly
Carmel Mahoney Mulhaire
Castle Kelly
Chicago Reel
Christmas Eve
Churchbell Reel
Coachman’s Whip
College Groves
Collier’s
Colonel Rogers
Come West Along The Road
Commodore
Concert
Concertina Reel
Congress
Connaught Heifers
Convenience Reel
Cooley's
Corner House
Cottage In The Grove
Craig’s Pipes
Crib Of Perches
Crooked Road to Dublin
Crosses Of Annagh
Crossing The Shannon
Crowley's #1
Crowley's #2
Culfadda
Cup Of Tea
Curlew
Custom Gap
Da New Rigged Ship
Dairy Maid
Derry Craig Wood
Destitution
Devanny’s Goat
Dick Gossip's
Dinky's
Dinny O'Brien's
Dogs Among The Bushes
Donald Blue
Donegal
Doonagore
Dowd’s #9
Dowd's Favorite
Down The Broom
Dr. Gilbert's
Drag Her Round Road
Drowsy Maggie
Drunken Landlady
Drunken Tinker
Dublin Porter
Dublin
Duke Of Leinster
Dunmore Lasses
Earl's Chair
East Clare
Easy Club Reel
Eileen Curran
Enchanted Lady
Exile OF Erin
Fair Wind
Fairhaired Mary
Farewell to Connaught
Farewell To Erin
Farewell To Ireland
Farewell To Miltown
Farrell O'Gara's
Father Kelly's
Fermoy Lasses
Ferry Banks
First House In Connaught
First Month Of Summer
Five Mile Chase
Flax In Bloom
Floating Crowbar
Flogging Reel
Flower of the Flock
Flowers of Edinburgh
Flowers of Red Hill
Flowers Of The Red Mill
Follow Me Down to Carlow
For The Sake Of Old Decency
Four Courts
Four Mile Stone
Fox On The Town
Foxhunter’s
Galtee
Galway Rambler
Galway Reel
Garrett Barry’s
Gatehouse Maid
Gates of Mullagh
Geoghan’s
George White’s Favourite
Girl That Broke My Heart
Glass of Beer
Glen Allen
Glen Of Aherlow
Glen Reel
Glencolmcille
Glens of Aherlow
Glountane School – 1862
God Speed the Plough
Golden Keyboard
Gooseberry Bush
Gorman’s
Graf Spee
Gravel Walks
Green Fields Of America
Green Fields Of Glentown
Green Fields Of Rossbeigh
Green Gates
Green Groves of Erin
Green Hills Of Tyrol
Green Mountain
Greenfields of Glentown
Greenfields of Rossbeigh
Guns Of The Magnificent Seven
Hand Me Down The Tackle
Hanly’s Tweed
Happy Days of Youth
Harkers
Heather Breeze
Heathery Braes
Heathery Cruach
Heights Of Muingbhathá
High Reel
High Road To Glin
High Road to Linton
Holly Bush
Holy Land
Honeymoon
House Of Hamill
Hughie Travers’ #1
Humours of Lissadell
Humours of Scarrif
Humours Of Tulla
Humours Of Westport
Hunter’s House
Hunter's Purse
I'm Ready Now!
In And Out The Harbour
Ireland in New York
Ivy Leaf
Jackie Coleman’s #1
Jackson’s #1
Jackson’s #2
Jenny Picking Cockles #1
Jenny Picking Cockles #2
Jenny’s Chickens
Jenny’s Wedding
Jenny's Welcome To Charlie
Jim Hodder’s
Jim McKillop’s
Jimmy O’Reilly’s
John Dwyer’s
John McFadden’s Favourite
Johnny Cronin’s
Johnny's Wedding
Jolly Clamdiggers
Jolly Tinker
Jug Of Punch
Julia Delaney
Kelly’s On King
Kerryman's Daughter
Killarney Boys of Pleasure
Killavil Fancy
Killavil Reel
Kilmaley Reel
King Of The Clans
Kiss Me Kate
Kit O’Connor’s
Kitty’s Gone A-Milking
Knotted Cord
Kylebrack Rambler
La Cosa Mulligan
Lad O’Beirne’s #1
Lad O’Beirne’s #2
Ladies’ Choice #1
Ladies’ Choice #2
Lads of Laois
Lady Anne Montgomery
Lady Gordon’s
Lady on the Island
Larry Redican’s Bow
Larry’s Favourite
Last Night’s Fun
Launching The Boat
Laurel Tree
Leitrim Lilter
Leslie’s
Letterkenny Blacksmith
Limerick Lasses
Limestone Rock
Little Katie Taylor
Log Cabin
Lomanach Cross
London Lasses
Long Drop
Long Strand
Longford Collector
Longford Tinker
Lord Gordon’s
Lord McDonald’s
Love At The Endings
Lucky in Love
Lucy Campbell’s
Maddy Donovan’s
Maggie’s Pancakes
Maid Behind The Bar
Maid of Mount Cisco
Maids of Mitchellstown
Mama’s Pet #1
Mama’s Pet #2
Man Of Aran
Man Of The House
Maple Leaf
Margaree
Market Day
Marry While You’re Young
Martin Wynne’s #1
Martin Wynne’s #2
Martin Wynne’s #3
Mason's Apron
Master Crowley's
Master McDermott’s
Matt Peoples’ #1
Matt Peoples’ #2
Maud Millar #1
Maud Millar #2
Maudabawn Chapel
Mayor Harrison’s Fedora
McDonagh’s #2
McFadden’s Handsome Daughter
McGovern’s Favourite
McMahon's
Mermaid Of Mullaghmore
Merry Blacksmith
Milliner's Daughter
Miss Brady’s
Miss Johnson’s
Miss McLeod
Miss Monaghan
Miss Thornton’s
Mistress On The Floor
Monaghan Twig
Morning Dew
Morning Mist
Morning Star
Mossy Banks
Mother's Delight
Mountain Road
Mountain Top
Moving Cloud
Mulhaire’s #9
Mullingar Races
Mulqueen's Reel
Music in the Glen
Musical Priest
My Love Is In America
Natterjack’s
New Copperplate
Nine Mile Stone
Nine Points of Roguery
Noisy Curlew
Now She's Purring
O’Connell's Trip To Parliament
O’Connor Donn’s
Off to Mass
Old Bush
Old Copperplate
Old Dudeen
Old Schoolmaster
Old Torn Petticoat
Otter's Holt
Over The Bog Road
Over the Moor to Maggie
Paddy Canny’s Toast #1
Paddy Canny’s Toast #2
Paddy Fahy's Reel
Paddy Murphy’s Wife
Paddy Taylor’s
Palm Tree
Palmer’s Gate
Pamela’s Lonely Nights
Patsy Touhey’s
Pauline’s Place
Peeler’s Jacket
Periwig
Pigeon On The Gate #1
Pigeon On The Gate #2
Pigtown Fling
Pinch of Snuff
Pint Of Reference
Plough And The Stars
Poor But Happy At 53
Pretty Girls Of Mayo
Primrose Lasses
Providence
Rachael Rae
Rags And Tatters
Rainy Day #1
Rainy Day #2
Rakish Paddy
Rambling Sailor
Reconciliation
Red-haired Lass
Reel of Mullinavat
Repeal of the Union
Return To Camden Town
Return To Miltown
Road To Ballymac
Roaring Mary
Rocky’s
Roddy McDonald’s Fancy
Rolling in the Ryegrass
Ronnie Cooper
Roscommon Reel
Rose of Antrim
Sailing Into Walpole’s Marsh
Sailor on the Rock
Sailor’s Bonnet
Salamanca
Sally Gardens
Sandmount
Scartaglen
Scholar
Sean Reid’s
Sean Sa Cheo
Sergeant Early’s Dream
Shamrock Hill
Shaskeen Reel
Sheehan's
Sheila Coyle’s
Shetland Fiddler
Ships Are Sailing
Shoemaker’s Daughter
Silver Spear
Silver Spire
Skylark
Sleep Soond In Da Moarnin’
Sleepy Maggie
Sligo Maid
Small Hills Of Offaly
Soldier's Joy
Solus Lillis’
Speed the Plough
Spike Island Lasses
Sporting Nell
Sporting Paddy
St Annes Reel
Star Of Munster
Staten Island
Steampacket
Stony Steps
Sunny Banks
Sunset
Swallow’s Nest
Swallow’s Tail
Sweeney’s Buttermilk
Sweeney’s Dream
Swingin' on a Gate
Sword In The Hand
Tam Lin
Tarbolton
Tarbolton Lodge
Tear the Calico
Teelin
Teetotaler
Templehouse
That’s Right Too
Tim Moloney’s
Tom Billy's
Tom Ward's Downfall
Tommy Peoples’ #1
Tommy Peoples’ #2
Torn Jacket
Toss the Feathers #1
Toss the Feathers #2
Traveller
Trim the Velvet
Trip To Cullenstown
Trip To Durrow
Trip To Nenagh
Trip To Pakistan
Turkey Reel
Turnpike
Twelve Pins
Twilight In Portroe
Two Days To Go
Union Reel
Virginia
Volunteer
Whole Chicken In The Soup
Wild Irishman
Wind that Shakes the Barley
Windbroke
Windmill
Wise Maid
Within a Mile of Dublin
Woman Of The House
Yellow Tinker
Hunter's Purse
* Slides
Brosna
Cat Rambles to the Childs Saucepan
Clog
Dan O'Keeffe's
Dennis Murphy's Slide
Dingle Regatta
Going to the Well for Water
John Kelly's Slide
Kathleen O'Hehir
Long Note
Merrily Kiss the Quaker's Wife
Mick Duggan's
O’Keefe’s 2
Off She Goes
Old Hag in the Kiln
Road To Lisdoonvarna
Second Slide
Star Above the Garter
Up the Sides and Down the Middle
Weavers
* Slip Jigs
A Fig For A Kiss
An Phis Fliuch
Another Jig Will Do
Boys Of Ballysodare
Butterfly
Cathal McConnell's
Ceol na Mara
Cock And The Hen
Coleman’s No 1
Dever the Dancer
Drops Of Brandy
Fairy
Farewell To Whalley Range
Foxhunter's
Give Us a Drink of Water
Gort Na Mona
Hardiman the Fiddler
Hills of Tipperary
Humours Of Ballymanus
Humours Of Whiskey
Kid on the Mountain
Little Fair Cannavans
Moll Roe
My Mind Will Never Be Easy
Road to Athlone
Rocky Road To Dublin
Striking Clock
Swaggering Jig
Tigh Rabhartaigh
Whinney Hills Of Leitrim
* Waltzes
Boda Waltz
Far Away in Australia
Farahar’s
Flatbush
Inisheer
Josefin’s
La Marianne
Margaret’s Waltz
Marino Waltz
Sangshy Henvalson Vals
Waltz of the Little Girls
Wild Rose of the Mountain
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ninglepingle
Re: Confused about learning tunes
That's it?
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I don't see "Humours of Tullycrine" unless it's with a different name. Good tune if you want to learn one more.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Slacker.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Confused about learning tunes
There are a few short cuts which might work in your case.
On the jigs "Humours of Trim" & "Rolling Waves" are different names for one tune. Same goes for "Top of Cork Road" & "Father O'Flynn" If you can find whoever compiled the list they can probably fix any duplications.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Random, a correction. Rolling Waves and Humours of Trim are two distinct tunes. It's just that Rolling Waves is often given as the name for both tunes. Look 'em up in the database here and you'll see the that they're not at all the same melody.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
"Will I get to learn them faster after a while, do you think? Do people get faster at learning tunes?"
Yes & yes. Don't worry. Slow and steady. Keep at it. They will come quicker and quicker.
You are doing it SO right. We tell folks all the time on here to find their local sessions and learn the tunes they know first. You are spot on here. Got a local friend with the local list, you're good to go.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Confused about learning tunes
If you'll forgive me, this seems to me a terrible way to go about learning tunes. You've got to break the task up, or you're never going to get anywhere with it.
Go to a session with your buddy and do anything but sit and pay attention to the music - have a conversation, play darts, talk to pretty girls, do something. When a tune grabs your ear, tap your buddy and say, write that one down. At the end of the night you'll still have too long a list, but don't worry, you'll be back. Next week, do the same thing, but you don't get to look at the list. Just have him put a tick mark by any that grabbed you twice running. And keep this up until you actually recognise maybe four or five tunes. Then throw away the lists and learn those ones.
In the meantime, you'll probably start noticing one or two more tunes - learn those. Rinse, repeat. It might take a little longer - or maybe not - but in any case it's a lot more fun than slaving away trying to complete a checklist.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Thanks Will. ;)
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Ninglepingle, here's the deal.
It's not about how many tunes you know but how well you play the tunes you do know.
When you can play really well, then it's about how many tunes you know.
You will never know enough tunes.
Don't rush it--of course it's going to take a long time. That's the point. This tradition isn't a microchip you swallow and gain instant mastery of. The experience of learning this music *is* nirvana. There is no subsequent destination. Enjoy the moment, then let it go. Enjoy the next moment, then let it go. Lather, rinse repeat.
If you haven't already, latch on to a good mentor. Learn from a real person who's well immersed in this music. Make friends.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
(coincidental cross post with Mr. Kiparsky there....)
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
thats a very daunting list,
how many tunes? 900+?
if you properly learn 3 a week, it will take you 2 years to get 300 of these down. which is a third, at which point your friend says you should start playing in sessions.
maybe your friend is just giving you a coded message; go away and improve your playing for 2 years then come back.
-----
by all means get the name of tunes you like at your local session, and try to learn them.
but there is little point in focusing on the repertoire list of just one session; esp in london, where there are 20+ sessions you could attend,all with varying repertoires.
far better to start with a smaller list of (almost) universal tunes.
as ever, i recommend people to search here for Dows List, and use that as a start. it has about 60 tunes on it.it will stand you in very good stead.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by rumpole
Re: Confused about learning tunes
and i would stick to reels and jigs, and ignore english tunes completely.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by rumpole
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Seconding Jon Kiparsky's idea, except without actually writing down tune names at the session.
I just make mental notes of the tunes that grab me. I don't write them down, because I don't want to collect more tune names than I can remember - this keeps things manageable. These days I find a tune or so a month that goes on the to-do list. Even still, that list would take a year or so to work through, and that's assuming that I don't fall in love with any additional tunes in the intervening year - unlikely. I don't work through the list in order; when I'm in the mood to learn something new, I learn my favourite tune off the list, usually one that's already at least somewhat embedded in my subconscious. Nothing goes on the list if I can't connect the tune name to at least a fragment of the melody; I don't want to end up with a disembodied list of names. If there's a tune that called to me on more than one occasion, I know it's a keeper.
I know folks who write down names of everything they hear that isn't currently in their repertoire, and others who don't do quite that, but still write down five or six names a night. They end up with notebooks with hundreds of tune names, many repeated several times. By the time they get around to learning one, it's often been so long since they've heard it that their written record of the tune name is now entirely disconnected from any memory of the tune. And although their to-do list is longer than mine, I don't think they end up learning (and retaining) more tunes than I do.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Also - "I'm learning about three or sometimes four a week at the moment, though sometimes I get mixed up between them and forget what they are."
If you're not retaining the tunes, that's likely a sign that you're learning new ones before you've really cemented your learning of the old ones. I know of only one person who's learned 3 or more new tunes a week - and she'd been playing this music for years (yes, it does get easier with time!), and was on leave from her job and so had tons of free time. You'll find that after a few years of playing this stuff, some tunes will just enter your brain and fall under your fingers without any conscious effort on your part.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Confused about learning tunes
TDM - (what an unfortunate abbreviation!) - In all honesty, the writing down can be dispensed with. I only included it to give the buddy something to do, so he'd feel useful.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Knowing half of those tunes would be useless in a session if you've never played them with other people. Sitting around learning tunes is a good thing. But the only way to become a session player is to get out and do it.
So I would suggest getting out into the sessions, make some more friends, and listen listen listen. If the session that you have been going to isn't particularly friendly to beginners, find some other sessions that are... (Your friend might have been trying to subtly let you know that the session you have been going to really caters to advanced players, and that you shouldn't try to join in there until you can keep up... But not all sessions are that way. And there are a lot of sessions around London...)
Once you have befriended some people (and maybe spent some time with them outside of the sessions, learning tunes from them, etc), they will start to invite you to play at the sessions, even though you're a beginner. If you're good company, and fun to hang out with, they won't mind that you sit there, listening most of the night, playing only occasionally... Even if you only know 10 tunes! But while you're out there listening, you'll be new finding tunes that inspire you to learn them. And you'll be subconsciously learning the nuances of the music that make it sound Irish, which are pretty difficult to pick up without immersing yourself in it.
And I'll second TD&M's point. If you're having trouble with retention, or confusing some tunes with others a lot, then slow down your learning, and work on the tunes you know. For me, at least, the retention really becomes much stronger once I have played a tune in sessions a number of times.
The tune learning process does become much easier as you go on. It's a learned skill, and the more you do it, the better you get at it. On top of that, you may still be learning the ins and outs of your instrument, AND the Irish style all at the same time. The more comfortable you get will all of those factors, the better you will become at it.
The other thing I would mention is that it's a really good idea to learn new tunes by ear when you're first starting out, for a number of reasons. Not the least of which are that learning Irish tunes by ear also helps you learn the Irish style at the same time, because the music is so much more than just a bunch of notes strung together. And the more you learn by ear, the better you get at it, to the point where you will start picking up tunes in sessions, because you hear them every week. And you will eventually have a comfort level with both your instrument, and the music itself, where you will be able to play tunes without sitting and formally "learning" them.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Amen.
Where do I submit my tithe?
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Any list of more than a hundred/insert number of your choice is useless. Four/five/six/maybe ten tunes is achievable, so, as in so much in life, set an achievable but realistic target.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: Confused about learning tunes
In fact, dragging the information out from long ago, targets need to be SMART
S specific
M measureable
A achievable
R realistic
T time constrained
*Not too sure about the phrase for T, but you get the gist.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Your friend says he's heard all of these at 'some' point over the past year. No wonder the list is so long.
)
Try and find out which ones are played regularly and also which are frequently played together as a set. There's nothing so disheartening as knowing a tune but not being able to 'switch on' quick enough to play it before the group changes to the next tune.
You don't mention what you play, this has a bearing. If it's an instrument that carries over the rest of the others (pipes/banjo/box) then you'll need to know the tunes well, if it's something that you can play quietly then you can play along and 'noodle' through the harder parts.
Stick with you're preferred instrument - don't be tempted to switch to a bodhran to play along with the tunes you don't know. You'll never learn them that way ( and there are too many goat beaters out there
Above all, get out there, play as much as you can and don't bother about learning hundreds of tunes. You will get quicker at learning them, you will start to forget tunes you've already learned and you'll enjoy playing.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by piperjon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
As a beginner I'd say that these huge lists that turn up now and again are a real turn off. : (
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: Confused about learning tunes
You have far more tunes there than you actually need to get started and even many regular session players won't have mastered all of these.
Theoretically, all you really need is *One* tune to join a session and it's possible that it might be one you don't even know the name of yet!
Of course, before "sitting in", you should introduce yourself and ensure that you are welcomed. If it's very busy and there's limited space, please ensure that the regular and more experienced players get an opportunity to play before you. Don't "hog" their seats.
However, you say it's a "big session" and this might indicate that you could quite easily sit on the fringes and be relatively unnoticed which is an ideal way to start. As long as you are not disrupting the proceedings, it won't really matter how many tunes you can play....even none, perhaps(?)....but each time you go along, you'll be able to do more.
I realise that I might be criticised for giving the above advice and I certainly wouldn't advise beginners(or anyone else, even) to just "sit in" on every session. It will always depend on the circumstances and set up.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Cripes, that list must have taken some time to write out!!!
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: Confused about learning tunes
As a beginner I think:
A. Surely this is a windup.
B. Dow's list is working well for me.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by David50
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Whoever gave you that list is a git. That isn't a list of what their session plays, it is the index page of a tune book somewhere.
Throw away the list of 900 tunes. Every session has a handful of favourites that come round every week, and it is those six or eight tunes you need to learn to start with. Once you have a few of those you can sit in, and be fairly sure that you will be able to play at some point. Once you are sitting in, you will begin to know what other tunes you want to learn - concentrate on tunes you particularly like, don't learn stuff just because everyone else plays it.
Always remember that sessions are about learning and sharing tunes, not performing. Unless you are leading a set no one really cares whether you are playing or not. So if you really want to contribute to the session don't worry about learning the tunes they play (that will come naturally with time) but find a cracking tune they DON'T play, learn it well enough to lead it, and give it to the group.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by skreech
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I agree with skreech. Your mate might be taking the p*ss a bit, as that's obviously an index page copied from a tune book.
Can anyone actually come up with a perfectly alphabetized list of every tune their session has played at "some" point?
Didn't think so.
The other thing to do is take a wee recording device, ask their permission of course, and record some of the tunes and sets you like and learn those by ear.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Grasshopper, the road to enlightenment is beset with confusion, doubt and pain. (Beats student with bamboo rod).
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
... as is the road to the UK General Election, which has just been announced.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
The most important thing about learning a few tunes at one go like this is to learn them in alphabetical order - then it's easier to remember them all.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by bogman
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Only if properly footnoted.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Confused about learning tunes
and you have to play them in alphabetical order too. That way, the tunes that are the same but have different names don't stand out too much.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by ...
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Here's my advice, for what it's worth...
1) go to your local session
2) find out what they play
3) from that list, learn three jigs and three reels
Have a good time. Play well. You will gradually learn more.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Greg has summed my views up to a tee. In fact I started by learning one jig, one reel, and one hornpipe, it worked for me and I then proceeded to learn more as it took my fancy. Of course that was on my whistle. On my bodhran I can play every jig, reel, hornpipe etc ever written, and do it instantly!! LOL
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by minstrel33
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I haven't been around these parts too long, but even I knew right away that this was a joke. btw, have we heard back from the OP?
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
The original post may well have been a joke or a wind-up, sara. But that doesn't mean that the subsequent discussion is any less interesting, or helpful to beginners. Several other newer players have chimed into the thread, and there has been some good advice disseminated, which might help any number of other players.
Which is a lot better than a lot of wind-up threads, which might just devolve into bickering
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Pete you have a heart of gold. Just don't send your money off to an emailer in the Ivory Coast unless you know exactly who it is.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Reverend, you are absolutely correct, of course.
I just wanted everybody to know how smart I am. That, and any excuse to avoid the things I really should be doing.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Spot on Reverend but surely part of the fun is reading the bickering.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by minstrel33
Re: Confused about learning tunes
"Isn't that going to take a long time? I'm learning about three or sometimes four a week at the moment"
At four tunes per week a little over 4 years & 3 months.
3 - Highlands
4 - Set dances
5 - Marches
6 - Barndances
6 - Mazurkas
9 - Miscellaneous
12 - English tunes
12 - Waltzes
20 - Slides
30 -Slip Jigs
41 - Hornpipes
61 - Polkas
211 - Jigs
467 - Reels
~ 887
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
The other thing you can do is tape a CD of tunes you want to learn to your head and go around for a few days wearing aforesaid CD (you'll look like a tool, but so what). The tunes will seep into your head from the CD via osmosis.
This also works for biology exams, except it kinda sucks to wear a biology textbook like a hat all day.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Like I said earlier, learn the bodhran then you won't have to bother about all that tune nonsense. You just have to learn to count. Simples.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by minstrel33
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Even better, you only have to count the even numbers. On the odd occasion where there's an odd number just mimic a bag of potatoes emptied down a stair and nobody will be any the wiser.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by bogman
Re: Confused about learning tunes
"At four tunes per week a little over 4 years & 3 months."
By then you will have forgotten the ones you learned in the beginning, so will have to start all over again. etc.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Related thread;
Re: Common Session Tunes
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/110/comments#comment1360
September 20th 2001 by Miss Lonelyhearts
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
There are some seriously geeky, obsessive, engineer type musicians in this world who love lists. Knowing a few of them, and seeing some of their eye-troubling spreadsheets with color coding and what not, I assumed the OP's mate was one. Lucky him/her.
Considering the OP has been going to the same session with his/her old school chum for two years, one would think he's already picking them up. He/she says as much re: rate of learning.
I personally like to keep a list of tune names because for whatever reason, they don't get played regularly, and if I look back at the names I'll pull them off the brain shelf and dust them off.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Just checked out Random's thread citing:
'Miss L' - "...Before everyone decides that I'm some anal retentive, ultra-organized list geek..."
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/110/comments#comment1365
[snicker]
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Confused about learning tunes
'eye troubling spreadsheets'. LOL. Funny.
I can't remember tune names now that I have ditched the dots and learning by ear. Can't take a trick me! Just like llig I guess, in that regard. LOL.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
To the OP. I used to ask for lists of tunes to learn, simply because I didn't know any better. I understand what you want to do, you want to be able to contribute to your local session and play most of the sets. Sooner or later you're going to have to abandon the lists notion and just learn what you like, simple as that. Jon Kiparsky had the best post so far, listen at the session, don't be concerned about playing on every set, and just ask what the name of a tune is when you hear one that you like. Then learn that tune. You can find a recording, or, if you have an mp3 recorder, ask permission of the group and record the sets for your own learning. Just don't be upset if anybody objects and respect their wishes. I've met some players that learn all the tunes so they can play on every set, and they sound like a Foinn Seisiun CD.
Oh, and by the way, yes, learning alot of tunes IS going to take you a long time. Count on it taking years, and you probably STILL won't feel comfortable with what you know.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Confused about learning tunes
unless you can play immediately, by ear, of course. Maybe you have to start young to do that though?
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I'm in a bit of a quandary over number of tunes to work on. The repeated advice here is that it is better to know a few tunes well than a lot not so well.
But what with it being easier to get the feel for similarities and differences when one knows at least three of four jigs etc, and throwing in a few slower tunes, and somehow ending up knowing almost dozen polkas, and getting better at learning by ear, it doesn't take long to get to being able to play through basic versions of three dozen tunes, but none of them very well and some not really at a stage for trying to play with a patient friend.
What is a good number to ‘consolidate’?
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by David50
Re: Confused about learning tunes
It does take a long time, and that's the beauty of it. This is not a job to be done, a checklist to be filled in, it's a life to be lived. I'll be happy if it takes me all the time I have left, and I wish you the same.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I'm just getting my list out to rattle out a few tunes right now. I went back to working from a list not long ago, I forget fewer tunes and I find it easier to focus.
I think the best advice I was given was not to stick too long on the same tunes, but keep learning new stuff and periodically revisit the older material as what was tough last month, courtesy of your new stuff, is now easier to get the fingers around, hence why I find a list helpful just to keep track of it all.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Confused about learning tunes
As a beginner I did in fact "sit in" on sessions and just listened for the best part of a year, and it must have been after about 9 months or so that I felt my playing was strong enough (just) to play a tune on my own. As I remember (it was 9 years ago), it was a slow Planxty Irwin right at the end of the evening when people were starting to pack their instruments away.
There is an advantage to a slow start and just listening until you start to get on top of technique - you hear and absorb a lot of tunes and the way they're played.
Even now, there's probably 25% of an average session where I'll be listening and not playing.
Don't worry, it's all about enjoying music.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
"Isn't that going to take a long time?"
Yes, but probably not quite as long as you think.
"Will I get to learn them faster after a while, do you think? Do people get faster at learning tunes?"
Yes. Assuming you stay interested in the music and keep playing in sessions, you'll reach a point where you can pick a tune in a couple of hearings (or even a single hearing). You might 'forget' it immediately afterwards, but it will come back to you each subsequent time you hear it.
Your friends list might represent a typical selection of tunes for a session player with a moderate-sized repertoire (some players know thousands). But, of itself, it is not of much use - by default, you learn the tunes which you hear most often, whether that be through listening to your favourite CDs or going to sessions.
The more sessions you go to, the more repertoire you will acquire, and the tunes you learn will depend on location. For example: at sessions in Ireland, you are unlikely to come across any of the English tunes listed; you are only likely to hear that many slides and polkas around Cork and Kerry; highlands are mostly played in Co. Donegal.
In short, begin by learning a handful of tunes. Then relax, enjoy the music and let the tunes soak in.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Good God
Even drinking won't solve it.
Long live RMIMR
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Confused about learning tunes
<<What is a good number to ‘consolidate’? >>
well you say you have 3 dozen, so Id suggest you consolidate those.
I go through stages; some times I am learning new tunes everyday, then i will go through phases of months where I dont really learn new tunes but rather consolidate what I have .
As I play a number of instruments I also phase these, concentrating on one or two and just maintaining the others.
So then I will be spending time transferring tunes from one instrument to another . This means that the variations and ornaments I employ will also vary . Runs and ornaments from one instrument will simply not work on another.
This way I become very familiar with the melody and can see clearly what is and is not ornamentation.
So what works for me is spending say a month learning new tunes then another month consolidating them on one instrument, then another months transferring those tunes over. and cycle through this. This was not a conscious decision, but just what has developed naturally over the years.
For the OP, I echo Jon Kiparsky; learn the tunes you like.
However, In my experience I find often that the tunes I 'like' are actually tunes I have heard a lot over the years . So my suggestion is buy a bunch of Cd's and listen to them over and over. [ there is a list of players in my bio] This is what I do. ...
Or simply record the session and play it a thousand times.
For example I have a Pat Mitchel recording on my phone that I must have listened to hundreds of times over the last few months.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I started a list a while back, on manuscript paper, with the name of the tune and the first couple of bars, just to jog my memory. I add to it when I think of it and keep it in my fiddle case for reference, if needed (it seldom is). I kind of like watching the list grow. And of course, once I have the tunes glued into my brain and fingers, the notes are superfluous.
I like being able to take a look and remind myself of what I haven't played in a while so I can bring it to the surface - as someone said, dust it off.
And what I've learned the most, acknowledging that I still know next-to-nothing in the grand scheme of things, is none of this tune-learning business can be in a hurry.
I like what Jon K said, it's not a job or a list, but a life to be lived. Good words.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Wow SWFL, that was 9 years ago, that old thread.
Which is good because I always get to learn new ones.
See my member bio for links to more useful lists of reels, jigs, slip jigs, hornpipes, and polkas.
Lately, seems my active repertoire of tunes is in the 1,200 range. But they're never the right ones when I travel to other sessions.
Playing in sessions tends to place a premium on knowing a lot of tunes, even if all you do is bang out the notes. But that's not really playing this music. And many sessions are dismal because of that approach. Far better, I think, to "live inside" the tunes you know, so that they are alive and fresh each time you play them.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I need hardly add to the well-said point that working from a list like that, taking it as a target, is completely to miss the point. It will also probably be very discouraging, and is more likely to put you off the music than help you into it. Others have said this better than I.
But... as a keeper of lists myself, I find it unlikely but conceivable that the OP's mate has collected this information, assuming he has a *very* wide knowledge of tunes. I couldn't possibly do it, as I don't know enough tunes to recognise their names, not by far. But if I did, it would not be hard then to keep an Excel list of what was played, along with whatever other information suits the purpose, whatever that is. With the data collected, sorting by name and type would be trivial.
The thing is, to realize at an early stage that lists have a value, and keep one in your computer from near the beginning. Then it can grow effortlessly in whatever way you want. And yes, reminding myself of half-forgotten tunes is one of its particular values.
Like any tool, a list is great for its proper purpose, but not the one proposed by the OP (or mate).
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
The advice about starting with a list of just a few tunes is spot on.
You will amass a big list eventually.
How do you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time...
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Confused about learning tunes
It can be difficult learning entire tunes at once and daunting if you need to suddenyl learn many tunes quickly.
My personal advice is to learn a whole bunch of tunes note at a time. Learn the first note of all 200 (or so tunes), lets face it how hard can that be? Then once you've got all those notes down learn the second note to each tune etc.
The beauty of this system is that right from the get go you can join in with at least part of every tune on the list. Note only that but you'll start to see patterns develope: the Blarney Pilgrin starts on a "D", why do does the Kesh !
Of course if you learn jigs and reels/hornpipes at the same time with this meathod you have to add in a bunch of rests at the end of the jigs to keep everything in synch (jigs have fewere note). Make sure that the rests are of the correct length, a rest is a note just like any other (only a bit quieter). if you play flute or whistle now is a good time to breathe.
When you actually play the tunes however, you will have to remove the extra rest-notes from the jigs. This can be quite confusing at first, but persevere! The second time through, of three, you can always put the rests back in as a variation. Although this might catch out the less adapatable members of a session.
Really the only practical alternative to this appraoch IMHO is to pick just one or two tunes that you actually like, and that you have heard played once or twice locally, and have fun with them. But that strikes me as a tad defeatist.
Whatevre you do have fun ninglepingle. Enjoy the tunes (notes?) that you learn, that is more important than worrying about the tunes you haven't got to yet.
- chris
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Oh sh*t. I haven't even started on the second octave g, a or b yet. I'd better look in the database quick to find some. Ah, but hang on a minute, am I allowed to count the notes on the first downbeat ? If so there is a g hiding behind a pickup d.
Yes, I did just scan down my list with ABC of the first couple of bars. Curious that, for example, the only three starting Fs where reels and that included was two out of the three 'fully irish' (maybe) ones.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by David50
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I still find more inconceivable than not, that this is an actual list of what an actual session in London plays. Considering most musicians don't know the names of a significant number of tunes they play, compiling such a list would be difficult to say the least. Also, a few years ago I played in a lot of London sessions and the distribution of tunes played did not correlate with this list. There is no way they played that many hornpipes, slides, and slip jigs, you were lucky if you heard one or two barn dances, set dances, or Highlands, and no one was playing English tunes at all. Could be a different London session than any I went to, but the types of tunes played by all the London sessions I played in were pretty consistent with the types of tunes played at Irish sessions everywhere else. Which consists of heaps of reels and jigs (usually more reels), and only a few hornpipes, polkas, barn dances, etc.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Consider a 3-hour session, 2 minutes per tune each played 3 times - this means a max of 90 tunes are going to be played, assuming no breaks whatsoever and all played at that (fairly brisk) speed. To me, this implies, for sessions in a given locality, a working knowledge of about 100 tunes should be enough for a comfort zone. As time goes by that number will increase without you being aware of it.
For a general list of tunes you could do worse than to click on Members/Tunebook where you'll see a massive list of thousands starting with the most popular one, "Drowsy Maggie". Just work through the top 100 and you'll be fine.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Hound - what is your hypothetical session's coefficient of repetition?
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Confused about learning tunes
A few years back, when I was still on my Irish music honeymoon, just out of curiosity, I wanted an idea of how many tunes were in my repertoire. So, as a starting point, I used Henrik Norbeck's collection (which then contained 800 tunes - not exhaustive by any means but representative of the most common session tunes), looking through the index and eliminating all those I did not know, referring to the dots for those I was unsure about. Thus I came up with an approximate figure. Of course, it didn't account for those that I knew but didn't know the names of (although, at that time I knew the names of most of the tunes I played - I clearly didn't know enough tunes), or the ones that were not in Henrik's collection - and falsely accounted for those which I thought I knew but didn't really.
So, I'm guessing that the OP's friend did something like that - going through an existing collection, or a few collections, and eliminating those he had not heard in the last year.....or he/she just has an exceptionally good memory, or is a compulsive recorder of things.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Confused about learning tunes
"coefficient of repetition" - definition, please
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
About a year ago I recorded a 2-1/2 hour session in its entirety. Going on memory (I have yet to track down the recording on a backup drive), I believe we played about 50 tunes in that time (which equates to about 60 for 3 hours). There is a core of tunes that get played every week, a further number that aren't played every week but you would certainly expect them to come up again within a month, and a small number of one-offs usually played solo which may possibly be repeated a week or so later by the original player.
I don't propose to list the tunes here because that session is mainly an English session, albeit with a respectable sprinkling of Irish, Scottish and French tunes, so it would't be all that helpful to the OP.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
It is rather amazing that they played Langstrom's Pony so many times that it had to get listed twice!
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Thanks all for the replies. It really made me think.
It is a fact that John (name changed) is quite geeky, and I know he keeps track of a lot of stuff, so I was not all that surprised to get his list. But you've made me wonder how he really made it. I'll try to ask when I next can.
But thanks for the good advice. I'll be takin' a more relaxed approach from now!
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Ninglepingle
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Lazyhound, not to argue, but I'm not sure I agree with your assumptions for calculating the number of tunes needed for a session. Unless I'm really misunderstanding your post, or one of us has a distorted view of what a typical session is. (Which given that I live in Montana USA is probably a safe bet.
)
I'd wager it's closer to 30 seconds for a typical 2-part jig once through and under 40 seconds for a 32 bar reel, at least at the pace typical to sessions I'm familiar with. Factor that against a 4 to 6 hour session (do people really do 2.5 and 3 hour sessions? Aren't you just getting warmed up?), and I get in the neighborhood of 160 tunes to 240 tunes. Which strikes me as much more realistic, based on my own experience. And the following week may only feature 40% or 30% of those same tunes.
LOL, as though sessions are reducible to averages and percentiles....
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Hmmm ... given that you're going to play tunes more than once each, I'd say it's 2 minutes per tune (on average), and, in any case, you;d struggle to get through more than 30 tunes per hour. (Probably more like 20, by the time you've had a bit of chatting and faffing.)
Even so, I'd agree with the apparent implication of Miss L - you need a thousand tunes to be able to keep up in most average sessions, not a hundred. (This is because I would hope that it was much *less* than 30% of tunes get repeated next time round.)
One sad thing to note - in the UK, 2 hour sessions seem to be the norm. They dont get going 'til gone 9pm and they tend to finish soon after 11. Pathetic, isn't it?
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Just out of curiosity, I may try to keep track of our TPH (tunes-per-hour)
at tomorrow night's session here. We usually play at least 4 hours on Thursdays. Though the pace and tune choices vary from week to week depending on which usual suspects sit in.
EB, yeah, I prefer it when the tunes repeated one week to the next are less than 20%, but that's up to the group as a whole. As long as the repeated tunes aren't tethered to the same sets as before, it doesn't bother me if the percentage is higher.
Shame about those truncated sessions. What with tuning, reed tweaking, adding electrical tape, adjusting straps, and filling the bag, how does a piper ever get a tune out in just two hours?
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I don't even think superman could play a list that long.
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by croxton
Re: Confused about learning tunes
croxxy, it's allegedly a year's list of tunes. Lots of trad players have personal repertoires of 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes. No, they don't play them all in one sitting, but neither is it unusual at festivals or weekend gatherings to play tunes for 6 or 8 or 12 hours, with just brief breaks for beer and the loo.
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
my hats off to them!
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by croxton
Re: Confused about learning tunes
From my own experience I agree with ethical blend's comment about pub sessions in England - the timing is controlled by the management, and 2-1/2 - 3 hours max is not untypical here. (Of course, we could discuss the "quality v quantity" question ad infinitum/nauseam, but I'm not going to - life is too short
)
In my post http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24280/comments#comment506972 I was suggesting a "comfort zone" of about 100 tunes as being suitable for a beginner to acquire - the OP is a beginner - and hinted that the number would increase naturally as time goes on. This scenario differs significantly from that of players with many years experience who are accustomed to sessions far longer than 3 hours.
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Jeez, Lonelyhearts, I thought I knew some "tuneheads and steamreelers" myself, but people with personal repertoires of 3000 tunes? I will pray for them. If they are aged 73 and started in the music at their mother's knee, then well done. Otherwise I'm tempted to think tha it's just sad. No, not tempted - it IS sad.
And yes, 2.5 hour sessions are surely quite normal. My experience in Ireland was 10 pm to midnight or a bit later (occasionally 1.00 am or even later, but not usually). In other countries 8.00 pm to 10.00 or 10.30. What hours do you do your marathons?
And yes again, an average of between 20 and 30 tunes per hour is normal, unless people are banging on like desperadoes.
Wow!
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Just out of curiousity, which mazurkas (aside from the few on this list) are likely to be played in London sessions?
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Lingpupa, it's not at all sad if all 3,000 are cracking tunes. Life is better with an internal soundtrack of great melodies. And bear in mind that some people pick up tunes more readily than others--it's not sad at all if you enjoy it, it comes naturally for you, and you still have plenty of time in your life for family and friends and work and sleep.
My regular weekly session starts around 6:30 pm or 7 pm, and generally runs till 11 pm, sometimes midnight. We play a lot of sets at typical dance tempos, sometimes faster, sometimes slower.
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Last night's session - a great gathering at the home of one of the flute players, since the regular session has been discontinued - we started at around 8:30, and started trying to close up at around 12:30. Ended up leaving around 2:00, although one or two people stayed and as there was still some whiskey in the bottle, I suppose they probably played a little more.
I have no idea how many tunes we played, though.
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Princess Royal - an ENGLISH tune???!!!
(...How's that for anal retentive?)
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by grego
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I have an English and Irish version of a tune called 'Princess Royal' Both are fine to play but recognisably from a common root. There's a problem with this?
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Not quite sure about the relevance of the last posting but my basic understanding of the tune is that the title refers a princess of one of the Irish royal lines; the Irish version is generally in G minor; and the English version is in G major (perhaps because that key sits better on the G/D box common in England?). Both versions are equally great to play, in my opinion.
Can't see anything wrong in changing a tune from minor to major, or vice versa, if the result is good to play.
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Cross-posting with John Knoss.
My reference to "last posting" was to grego's post.
John Knoss and I are evidently singing from the same song-sheet!
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Just so lazyhound, given the way a good tune can travel...
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Confused about learning tunes
> Lots of trad players have personal
> repertoires of 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes.
Forgive me for being cynical. Do you suppose that even one of these players would be willing to show us their list? Obviously it would be mere bravado to claim to know that many without having listed and counted them, so these players must all have written lists. Or at least some of them must, if there are "lots" of such players.
Some years ago I knew players who made the very reasonable claim that, while they did not know exactly, they believed that they knew quite a few hundred. It was conjectured by someone who studied Johnny O'Leary's playing (iirc it was Terry Moylan and Breandan Breathnach, but it's years since I saw the book, so memory is weak) that, while again the exact number was unknown, his repertoire must have been well over 1000. That was on the basis of having studied his playing, the known tunes, the frequency with which he came up with yet more, etc., so it was founded on evidence.
More recently I saw the claim that certain young players knew 2000 or more, a claim that was made in support of the idea that they were therefore good musicians.
Now we hear of players with 3000 tunes. OK, I'll buy it, if you can show us any evidence beyond a bit of macho self-preening on their part, or perhaps a bit of beer-talk. Until then I will remain unconvinced.
How long before someone claims 5000? 10,000?
This is the internet, isn't it?
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I think we average about 20-30 tunes per hour, for three hours of session. A song takes the place of two tunes, when song occurs. It makes me tired just to read about the pace, length, diversity, and number of tunes at a Miss Lonelyheart session. They sound like the musical equivalent of an Olympic team.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Confused about learning tunes
We're starting to look at the question of what "knowing" a tune means.
For the purpose of putting to the test those who claim to know 1000+ tunes I'd suggest the fairly strong definition of "knowing" as "being able to recall and play a tune when given its name".
A much weaker definition of "knowing" would have the player listening to a new tune in a session the first time through and then be playing it fairly accurately on the third time. Many experienced musicians can do this and an observer may think that the player "knows" the tune. The real test, though, is whether the player can recall the tune reasonably accurately the next day without prompting.
As an aside, I reckon 1000 tunes represents about 10 hours of music (give or take), which isn't an insuperable objective in itself. But, in my opinion quality should always trump quantity.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I've always thought the "Princess Royal" referred to was, as Groves thinks, Anne, who married William of Orange in 1734. The tune was published, certainly in London, and I think in dublin too, around 1730 as either "Princess Royal, the New Way" or "The New Princess Royal". Mudcat and the Fiddlers Companion have lots of good stuff on the tune's background and history.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Lady (Mrs) McDermott Roe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llDrf8QlQz0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turlough_Carolan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kings_of_Magh_Luirg
Considering it was apparently composed by Carolan after 1688, that might have something to do with the name change, and/or the styling of it. It is apparently alternately known as Mrs McDermott Roe or Princess Royal.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Politically, I would have thought that you would have had to be on the safe side of the fence if you wanted to name a tune "Princess Royal" for someone other than the "Princess Royal" of England, if you were as famous as someone like Carolan.
Carolan would have been pretty safe, but hey, better to be safer than sorrier!
“Princess Royal was possibly composed for Mrs. Mary O'Rourke (also the subject of Mrs. O'Rourke). She was the eldest daughter of MacDermott, Prince of Coolavin. Another possible subject of the tune is Elizabeth MacDermott Roe (the subject of another tune - specifically named for her).” (http://www.contemplator.com/carolan/carol2.html)
http://www.macdermot.com/library/Origins.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_of_Great_Britain
Queen Anne (Stewart) would have been the Princess Royal of England at the time.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I know that I have around 1,000 or 1,200 tunes in my own repertoire based on being able to play tunes 8 to 10 hours a day for a four-day weekend session and not run out of tunes. I dont need a list to prove it--I can just keep playing tunes. The last time I made a list of all the tunes I could play was maybe 6 years ago, and it contained over 700 tunes.
That's having played this music for three decades, mostly living in the hinterlands of the western US, far from the hotbeds of Irish trad. It would not surprise me at all that players with access to several sessions a week and a diverse crowd of good players well steeped in this music could amass several thousand tunes over their lifetimes. Paddy O'Brien (now living in Minnesota) figures he has around 3,000 tunes under his fingers. I've seen people like Paul O'Shaughnessey, Mary Rafferty, and Tom Doorley play for days on end without running dry of tunes. Of course they don't keep lists--why? Just to prove to some doubting Thomas on the net that they really can play 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes? Meh.
Mind you, this isn't about quantity over quality. It's just a simple fact of playing this music day in, day out over decades. At some point you become a decent player, and you can play all tunes with a fair measure of grace and style and nyah. And it's easy to learn new tunes--they're all idiomatic.
It's not like we're talking about huge pieces of music, either. 16 or 32 or even 64 bars of a tune isn't a lot to internalize. I also know several hundred rock songs on guitar, and I've lost track of how many songs and tunes I know for bluegrass, oldtime, and folk. None of this strikes me as unusual or reason for skepticism. You spend a lot of time playing music, you end up know a lot of music.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I must confess to being at a disadvantage. I've never seen *anybody* play for days on end (3000 tunes at 1m30s average per tune gives about 75 hours solid I think). If I ever did, I'm perfectly sure I would neither know nor care whether any of the tunes were repeated. It sounds like the ITM equivalent of Chinese water torture if you ask me, though whether worse for the player or the - presumably captive - audience is hard to say. So I think I have to leave the discussion here, with one final thought: Hmmm.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Lingpupa, I don't know why you're questioning the amount of tunes folk play. Quite simply, and as a rough guide, if you learn even 3 tunes a week then that's 150 odd tunes a year, 20 years would give you 3000 tunes.
It's pointless saying you'd like to see lists. I don't know anyone who's been playing for a long time that keeps lists of ALL their tunes, or cares about it. The only thing that matters is the next tune you like the sound of and want to learn, not the ones you already know.
Some folk love learning tunes, it's not a sin or sad or necessary but live and let live. I'll maybe learn 5 - 10 tunes a week, some of them will get played, others will get forgotten as soon as the novelty wears off, maybe to reappear years down the road, or maybe not. Most folk who know what seems like unfeasible amounts of tunes don't care about numbers, it's simply time and enthusiasm that creates big repertories. It would take quite an ego to learn 3000 tunes just for show.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by bogman
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I'm only questioning it because it has been thrown into the discussion by others, who say that lots of trad players have personal repertoires of 3,000 tunes. I dare say a few do. Good for them. But for goodness sake don't suggest that it's some kind of standard people "should" aim for or expect to reach, or that it's common. Yes, I can believe that a few do, but the evidence is extremely thin. We are asked to believe that people have been seen to play for 75 hours at a stretch, stopping only for essential revival, and that someone is watching and noticing that no tunes get repeated. Is it excessively cynical of me if I don't quite swallow it?
Anyway, I know a guy who has a repertoire of nearly 8000 tunes, AND has a list. And has sex within 12 seconds of coming off stage. And can drink a bottle of vodka in an hour and then drive at 150 kph - safely! With one hand.
I go back to my previous thought: Hmmm.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Yep, that's old Enlyke Flynn, he's around 80 now. Know him well.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
This whole estimation of the number of tunes thing always goes poorly. Someone honestly tries to make an estimate, and everyone p*sses all over it.
Honestly, they're all made out of parts of each other anyway. So many patterns and familiar chunks of tune that always reappear in other tunes, etc. If that last sentence makes no sense to you keep at it, it will.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Confused about learning tunes
...that Flynn guy is the real deal though! He wrote the book on trad groupies.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Ha ha, oxymoron, like military intelligence.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Lingpupa, I haven't read the whole thread through so I didn't realize folk were claiming that some sessions last 75 hours or that people "should" aim to have repertoires of 3000 tunes. That's obviously nonsense.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by bogman
Re: Confused about learning tunes
"Anyway, I know a guy who has a repertoire of nearly 8000 tunes, AND has a list. And has sex within 12 seconds of coming off stage. And can drink a bottle of vodka in an hour and then drive at 150 kph - safely! With one hand".
If it's the guy I'm thinking of he's lying about the sex, it's 4 bottles of vodka and it's usually someone else that dose the driving plus the apologies.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Confused about learning tunes
The discussion has probably all got carried away with itself - apologies for any part I may have had in that. Though still Hmmm!
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
It's all your fault, ling. Don't be sorry.
Anyway, it's sometimes good craic to see people carryin' themselves away - usually late at night on the way out of bars, in my understanding.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Hopefully this thread is waning, as my next comments are simple banter. But before anything; Cheers! to Ninglepingle, at 1st I was skeptical but now I hope you'll be back on the forum. ;)
Wayback on the 1st post there is this, . . . "I'm learning about three or sometimes four a week at the moment, though sometimes I get mixed up between them and forget what they are. Will I get to learn them faster after a while . . . ? Do people get faster at learning tunes?" {Ninglepingle}
So I wondering what does one do between that & this, " . . . As an aside, I reckon 1000 tunes represents about 10 hours of music (give or take), which isn't an insuperable objective in itself. But, in my opinion quality should always trump quantity." {lazyhound}
This is brilliant & someday I hope to post something half as brilliant, "I've seen people like Paul O'Shaughnessey, Mary Rafferty, and Tom Doorley play for days on end without running dry of tunes. Of course they don't keep lists--why? Just to prove to some doubting Thomas on the net that they really can play 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes? Meh." {Miss Lonelyhearts}
& finally, because I have to leave soon, "So many patterns and familiar chunks of tune that always reappear in other tunes, etc." {SWFL Fiddler} ~ there are at least 1,000 to 2,000 responses to this, but they are all patterns & chunks from previous threads.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Ling, I never suggested or even implied that anyone "should" try to learn 3,000 tunes. That's just silly. You're taking simple statements made here and expanding them into absurdities. You also seem to have an axe to grind, though it's not clear what that is, or why.
I'm also not suggesting that "lots" of people know 3,000 tunes. But I've certainly played a fair amount with people who know many, many more tunes than I do, and as I said above, I quit counting years ago at about 700 tunes.
Once in a blue moon I get to spend a long weekend, or a week at a festival or camp, where people play tunes day in, day out, through the wee hours, and on into the next day, and the next. Sure, we stop for food, beer, a nap now and then, and loo breaks. During this time, some tunes do get repeated, but you're instantly aware when that happens, and the longer the sets go on, the more you hear obscure and interesting tunes drawn out of dusty memories.
These "marathon sessions" aren't some sort of mad tune feeding frenzy. In fact, they're usually more laid back than the average session because people realize they have lots of time to get all the tunes out, and we're there to socialize, too. There's no audience, captive or otherwise, and it's not torture--we're simply spending time playing the music that we love. I can assure you that it's way more fun than doing band or concert rehearsals 20 hours a week for weeks on end getting ready for a big gig....
One of these events is coming up next month. A bunch of us have been getting together every May for 6 or 7 years now, gathering at a house in the middle of no where in the American West to play tunes. It starts on Friday and ends on Monday (though I usually have to leave on Sunday to get back home). It's not at all unusual that the tunes are going from 8 am to 2 or 3 or even 4 am the next day, and a few hours later, it starts up again. Other players who come to this (and the hosts) know all the tunes I play and then they can go on to play for hours on tunes I don't know. So their repertoires are much larger than my own. And we're all just average session players, not professionals.
I don't see what's so dire about being passionate about and obsessed with this music. There are plenty of worse things to do with your time on the planet. And it's not like this is *all* we do. I have a happy well-rounded life--raised two well-adjusted boys, I hike, mountain bike, snowboard, read a lot, teach music and write (not about music) for a living, have friends who don't play music, etc. All my friends who enjoy playing this music are well educated, well rounded, diversely interesting folks.
Ling, your experience of this music may be different and perhaps narrower than someone else's. It can be hard to see and comprehend things that are beyond your own current horizons. That doesn't make them untrue.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
BTW, our session at the pub last night was atypical. In the first hour or two, I think we averaged about 4.2 tunes per hour. LOL. Lots of craic. Someone was photographing a dog drinking a beer at our table, and they brought home made cookies. Plus there was an apple cobbler from another friend. And gossip to catch up on.
Anyway, I got there late, 7:20 pm or so, and the tunes had already been going. The last of us packed up at midnight. The later hours were more tune-filled, but I didn't stop to clock the rate--we were having too much fun bantering with a couple from out of town who knew enough about the music to request specific tunes, and who also had great senses of humor.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
sounds brilliant, Will.
Billy Moran of Melbourne was like that. You couldn't outlast him at a session, even just as a listener. Australia does not have many left like that.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12671/comments#comment259538
...and I would like to read what you write about not about music too.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
duij, if you go to amazon.com you'll find some books I've written over the years. Mostly outdoor recreation stuff--hiking and biking guidebooks, and a couple on backcountry safety and "leave no trace" practices. "Wild Country Companion" (I detest the title, which the publisher came up with) has some fun stuff thanks to interviews I did with experts on things like camping in grizzly bear country, dealing with human waste on popular climbing mountains, and the human impacts on coral reefs. On the other end of the spectrum, I was a co-author of "The Western Confluence," a rather dry, textbook type read on the history of natural resource policy in the USA West.
Don't bother buying any of these.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
what do you mean not buying any of these!! I would have done a google search on pdf's of them anyway, but hey. I like the sound of the natural resource stuff too, btw.
good musicians are often good writers too, in my observation. Not always but some.
Cheers.
Tune lists are subliminal too , I reckon. Share and share alike.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Yeah, if you can find them as pdfs, read away.
It's just that my more enjoyable writing has been for things like magazine articles and radio plays.
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
good man yerself!
post some links then, man, and to yer music as well!
# Posted on April 9th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Confused about learning tunes
ML:
> Ling, I never suggested or even implied that anyone "should" try to learn 3,000 tunes.
For jumping to conclusions, which I did, I apologize.
> I'm also not suggesting that "lots" of people know 3,000 tunes
I think you said quite exactly that "lots of trad players" have repertoires of that order.
I do accept that there are some players who may well have repertoires of that sort of size. Johnny O'Leary may perhaps have had - we only have real evidence, however, for the number being well over 1000. And I am quite certain that grassroots players in that area who learnt traditionally would have repertoires extending down from the many hundreds to the few tens.
It would be tedious to rehearse the estimates of the numbers in full (I will if someone asks, but I hope they won't!), but my design engineering estimation habits still indicate that whereas it *could* be true that some of these people you know have repertoires of that size, your story does not actually provide much evidence - one has to stretch the figures quite hard even to approach 2000.
So again, for jumping to conclusions, I apologize. For taking your figures seriously enough to check their feasibility, I don't.
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I remember getting in trouble here for challenging claims people make about knowing 'thousands of tunes', but when it came down to it the claimant confessed that they have only really heard that many tunes and is good at faking most of them. As for me, I can play at weekend tune orgies for days and repeat very few tunes, but I still don't think that would add up to anywhere near 'thousands' or even one thousand... if you think about it, you can't play more than a few hundred tunes in a weekend of sessioning, unless you count the ones you fake your way through maybe. But I usually only play the tunes I know so I might sit out my fair share of them. The bottom line is that how many you know is irrelevant... it's how well you play the ones you do know that counts.
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Lingpupa, my exact quote was that "Lots of trad players have personal repertoires of 1,000 or 2,000 or 3,000 tunes. " Obviously, fewer have 3,000 tunes than have 1,000 or 2,000. You can work at splitting that hair some more if you want.
In the case that Jack cites, he mistook "several" thousand for "seven," when Devin meant in the neighborhood of a couple thousand tunes. I never saw a retraction from Devin to the effect that he is just "good at faking most of them." What I saw Devin post was that he was good at picking them up on the fly and playing them. Jack in spinning what Devin said, despite never having played with the lad. Perhaps we should ask Liz Carroll and some other folks who have played with Devin....
Many good session players learn their tunes by gradually absorbing them over weeks and months and years and a lifetime of hearing them played and playing along in sessions until they do in fact know the tunes. This isn't "faking" it at all. That's purely Jack's interpretation, based on his own experience, which by his own account (insistence, more like it) doesn't allow much if at all for picking up tunes on the fly at sessions. So, of course, if Jack doesn't do that, he's not going to understand how well it works for people who are good at it. And how well the tunes stick when learned that way.
No doubt people who must "work up" a tune, specifically focusing on that single task in a finite time, to feel that they have actually learned it, would have a real difficulty comprehending how it works to learn tunes by osmosis. For example, in earlier threads, Jack mentioned having the osmosis experience a few times, but it sounded like it was an infrequent or even rare experience for him, not a normal or preferred mode of learning tunes. If I recall his descriptions right, it sounded like he found it pleasant and rewarding but slightly startling.
As to how many tunes you can play over a long weekend, I never said a thousand or two thousand tunes get played in that time frame. But what I know from personal experience is that I can play many hundreds of tunes over 3 or 4 days and drive home with a head full of tunes that ***didn't*** get played. And the other people at the session often comment on the same phenomenon, "regretting" the tunes left out.
In the long run, it doesn't bother me at all if a few people on a net forum are skeptical of the abilities and knowledge of people I've met and know in meatspace. It's not even surprising. Many people underestimate their own abilities to learn things (e.g. learning music by ear) and their memory capacity. So I can understand how readily they'd dismiss people who exceed their sense of reality.
Meh. In the end, we may disagree about the tally, but we seem to agree on what i said in a post way, way up the thread:
"It's not about how many tunes you know but how well you play the tunes you do know.
When you can play really well, then it's about how many tunes you know.
You will never know enough tunes.
Don't rush it--of course it's going to take a long time. That's the point. This tradition isn't a microchip you swallow and gain instant mastery of. The experience of learning this music *is* nirvana. There is no subsequent destination. Enjoy the moment, then let it go. Enjoy the next moment, then let it go. Lather, rinse repeat."
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Picking up on the fly = faking
I've played with Martin Hayes... does that mean if you ask him he knows how many tunes I play? Honestly, Will, you crack me up. lol
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Oh Yeah?.......My dad knows the Kesh...........And.......Ah.......
Well....... my dad can beat your dad up while blindfolded with one hand tied behind his back, in his sleep, while benchpressing 1000 lbs and playing The Kesh on fiddle, pipes, box, flute and bodhran all at the same time. The only tune he knows is the Kesh and that's the only one he needs to know cause he's the toughest and he plays it better than anyone! He's my dad and he rules! He doesn't care how many stoopid tunes you know!
So there......you loser!
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Go ahead and misrepresent things Jack. It's your standard mode here. Welcome back.
"Picking up on the fly = faking"
Wow--I can't imagine a statement that would better reveal how little you understand the process of ***learning*** (which includes retaining) tunes on the fly.
Funny, I sometimes get the same reaction when people find out I'm a juggler. They'll ask how many objects I can keep in the air and when I tell them 5 clubs or 7 balls, some folks just don't believe it. Until I show them. The possibility of someone juggling 7 balls is just too far outside their own experience of the world, so they assume I'm just boasting--faking it. Until I show them. And even then, some people will ask me to show them the 7 balls in my hands held still and to then juggle them again so they be sure I'm not pulling some sort of trick on them.
Sorry, but I find it a bit arrogant and ignorant when people insist that reality is only what they can see within their myopic horizons.
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Chuckle chuckle
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Lingpupa, why does it take this individual an hour to drink a bottle of vodka? And is he playing tin whistle with the other hand while driving 150 mph with one hand ? Now if he's got the vodka in one hand, the whistle in the other, driving with his knees...maybe an hour if he's trying to make it to the ocean OK.
Otherwise....EFing loser.
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by shanty
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I don't know about the hour. What he is doing with the other hand is unmentionable. But it's not juggling with *7* balls.
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Oh, but it might give him myopia.
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Hahahaha
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Back to the topic... I'm still waiting for that feeling that I know enough tunes... I doubt that day will ever come though. I used to play the bodhran and roll ciggies for people when I didn't know the tune... but I have since given up the ™Drum and seem to usually leave the bodhran at home these days... so I guess that's a good sign.
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Learning tunes blows hot & cold for me, if I'm really enthused and maybe busked through a tune the night before whilst out I can get up in the morning pull up the dots (or work it up if it's a tune I happen to know but just ain't playing it well enough or as well as I thought I had it) and sort it. Then there are the painful ones that seem to take forever. I think my problem is down to how I start off, if it's like i describe above it's fast and painless but if I put up my own personal barriers it can be long and tedious.
I've a 6 part pipe reel on the go like that. I learned the first two parts a few years ago and I've just decided to nail it while I've a little time on my hands at the moment as it's started to weigh on me like an unfinished letter, it's been a nightmare committing the last 4 parts to memory. I know the tune well enough but I just keep tripping myself up mixing the wrong elements of the first 2 parts into the other 4. It's square now bar the last part which I'll maybe nail today or tomorrow (it's a barset). One good thing I've found when I learn tunes this way is that once it's there it's there for good.
Learning tunes on the fly is something I've surprised myself with. I don't regard myself as a particularly good player of tunes but if a tune is straight forward enough I can have a functional version quite quickly, if the circumstances are right. I've watched good players do this with a tune where they absolutely nail a tune after a once through, impressive, I think I should qualify this by saying these are "very good" players, the sort of players that "I" regard as very good will quake when this type of player sits in with the company. I think it's something you need to be doing regularly to get good at it and years to get very good at. I know from years of accompaniment that there are many analytical tricks that can be employed to make a good job of something you've never heard before, lol unless it's in say 7/8 with a few unexpected twists and turns, it's the same for melody players but a different skill set much more focused on detail, I just haven't got that that well developed yet as I don't perhaps know my instrument and the music as well as I could.
Then there seem to be tunes that just happen by osmosis where you just find yourself playing them. Or in the case of one tune, some years ago, I woke in the night with this tune going through my head got up and worked out the bit I could remember. Went back to bed and when I awoke next morning and checked it out I found it was the 3rd part of Bunkerhill, I was playing it by lunchtime, not brilliantly but a working version.
How many tunes have I got? More than I realise and much less than I should, I think is the correct answer. Ask me in another 10 years I think, ha ha................. the answer will be the same, even with my list.
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I'm clearly not meant to post this - this is the thrid time of trying, so it is decidely truncated.
Gist: refers way up-thread. Sorry. duij, agree with reasoning *if* you think Princess Royal is by O'Carolan. I don't. I think it was pre-existing English tune, and not aware of attested origin for it earlier than about 1725 or so, in London. If English, then more likely to be about Anne.
[Gosh, my earlier versions of this post were much nicer. Bear with me, duij, I only wanted to point out that there's no definitive answer on this one. Let's hope this posts ... ]
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Confused about learning tunes
According to Dónal O'Sullivan's 'Carolan: The Life and Times of an Irish Harper', the tune 'Miss MacDermott' (aka 'The Princess Royal') was most definitely a Carolan composition and was most probably written for the eldest daughter of The MacDermot of Coolavin (an old Irish family whose male line were sometimes referred to as princes).
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
Another related thread w/ Dow's list of 50;
Re: "Which sets/tunes to learn?"
March 19th 2007 by llig leahcim
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13056/#comment268348
# Posted on April 10th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Confused about learning tunes
I know, Bronstein, I know. But there are equally many sources saying that it definitely wasn't an O'Carolan composition as there are saying that it was. Groves, for instance. My point being simply that we don't know for sure.
# Posted on April 11th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Confused about learning tunes
So let's keep playing either or both versions and enjoy the music.
# Posted on April 12th 2010 by Trevor Jennings