I'm in a band (I play tenor banjo in this particular group) where the fiddle player is more of a violin player and even the fiddle influence in her playing is more american with very little irish fiddle influence in her playing. In car rides to gigs in the past I have put Kevin Burke and other great fiddle recordings in the CD player to try and catch her ears. What else can I do to gently suggest she take influence from Irish fiddle playing. I want to open her ears to many different tunes, so we can take the best of them and integrate them into what we are doing. I have already turned the flute player on to the tunes and have brought her to several sessions and taught her many tunes and she taught me many she learned in the past. It's a case of a band having the celtic fever, but I want to show them some of the real stuff that they are missing to get closer to "pure drop."
You gotta make her want it, really want it. You can't go waving your magic wand in her face hoping for a quick result. It might take a while before she gets a total grip on it, it may never come. Have you tried getting her drunk?
I've tried to "convert" classical violin players by playing Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, etc. albums at them. It never works. The violin players in question just sit there, confused over how such scratchy fiddle playing can be considered top flight Irish music.
You either get it or want to get it and are open minded about it, or not.
What sort of music does your band play? Fiddle, flute (I'm guessing silver), and tenor banjo...if you're not already playing Irish, then you may just have to put up with the "Celtic" nonsense.
It's amazing how many people don't hear the details that make this music what it is. You can help them hear, but they have to want to listen.
You can lead a violinist to the well, but you can't make her think.
A good Irish-style fiddle teacher would be a big help, I think. Especially one with some understanding of both worlds. I know it made a huge difference for me.
Have you explained to her the different styles ? , If you have and she is still not interested you will either have to live with it or get another fiddler.
If not , I think the best bet is to explain the different styles in the most kindest of ways , and hope she takes to it.
Was you post asking how to " tell " her to play more " pure drop"
Hopefully she is open to learning the more " pure drop " stuff
Good Luck
John
Kevin Burke is good... I'd recommend some Martin Hayes, and some Sean Keane and/or Tommy Peoples (or Frankie Gavin, if she's a showman). Ask her to learn a common tune (you could even give her sheet music for it), then give her a recording of Tommy Peoples playing it, and ask her to learn his version...
I'll confess that I didn't have any sense of what variation on Irish music was until I tried to do that myself... It was quite the revelation.
It's my experience that when trying to "influence" people if recordings don't always do the trick then you might have to take her along to actually physically see a musician/s perform the style of music you are so interested in exposing her to. Sometimes an individual musician performing live can have a huge impact on someone. I'll never forget the first time I saw the Clare concertina player Dympna O'Sullivan live, in a noisy bar in Kilrush some years ago. I'd heard her a bit on radio etc. but seeing her live was an overwhelming experience. A similiar thing happened when I met Nth Leitrim box player Jim Connolly, completely sent my head into a spin and gave me enormous amount of inspiration to change/develop a lot of aspects to my music taht I'd never even considered, mostly to do with timing, rhythm, and tempo.
I don't think you can get her interested if she doesn't want to be. However, how about suggesting she attend some kind of workshop or Irish fiddle weekend. That might spark her interest.
I used to play in a band with a violinist who had some very classy credentials and technique. She didn't make a great fiddler, ever. I tried with Kevn Burke, and others, and she was hardly interested. One time on a long car journey, though, I hit her with some Michael Coleman tracks and she was rivetted. Interestingly, when I told her that he was considered the greatest Irish fiddler by many, she said that she could totally see why and that his technique was amazing.....
The last thing we want is a Kevin Burke clone (and he's one of my favorites), keep up the inspiration give her a stack of different players including scottish canadian etc and hope for the best.
And then be happy to work with what you've got.
Irish music is just a little bit more intoxicated than its near relatives, perhaps a little social lubricant would help?
There any sessions you can drag her to that have good fiddlers? I once met a professional classical violinist who may or may not have been wildly impressed with Irish, or on this case Scottish, fiddling had been sober and listening to a recording, but when he was off his head and listening to my mate playing fiddle, he thought it was the most amazing music he had ever heard in his life.
I was thinking, There might be a movie in this - girl Classical violinist listens to Coleman or someone and suddenly 'gets' trad music: cue for her to see unicorns, stone circles, Enya levitating around her castle, and other such things.
But if she plays 'Celtic', maybe she sees them already, and doesn't want to give them up; maybe that is the problem.
There could indeed be a movie here. But it would have to be *very* good, or it would probably be abominable.
A musician with an ear hears what they like (or envisions it) and that is what they try to play. If they keep their mirror polished, they will be able to hear how effectively they are accomplishing this.
But in the end, IMHO, embracing a style or tradition in music starts with hearing something that touches/moves/inspires you and saying to yourself,
"I want to do THAT too."
As in, is it Tommy Peoples that grabs her, or Jean Luc Ponty?
I'm not sure that you should be trying to influence her. She is playing in her own style - a style presumably built up over the years from listening to other fiddlers and violinists, and cherrypicking the bits she likes, to produce something that is her own.
How would you feel if she turned round and said "I want you to play Jazz?" That is no different to you wanting her to play pure drop.
If her style/interest isn't the same as the rest of the band's, then either you find a way to blend the two and produce something unique, or you go your separate ways.
But it could also be that she is not really playing in any style at all. I've come across many players, especially those with a "training", who've developed good technique and sight reading skills but who have never really listened to any kind of music closely enough to have developed any real appreciation of anything, and hence, have no style at all.
Either way though, the answer to the orriginal post is the same. It's up to her. And if it's skreech's scenario, then I agree, it's non of the OP's business.
I believe fully in learning by listening, not by reading, but here's a thought:
As a starting point you might ask if she could follow some of the bowings in Matt Cranitch's book -- or someone else's Irish bowings -- by playing through a tune or two (or nine, but keeping ornaments to a bare minimum).
Since she can read, this would be easy for her, even though it might feel awkward. If she listens while she plays, she might notice how the bowings change her sound, and she could find some enthusiasm for learning more -- by listening, eventually.
Best case, she'd start changing her bowings in the band, and that would set you in the right direction.
Hey Earl. Well she's playing in a 'band' with you and not an orchestra which implies that she is at least somewhat interested in playing something not written by Mozart. I think you may be dealing a little bit with comfort level in terms of areas of expertise. If she's classically trained she may have some chops and tone and be able to play in tune and pick up tunes fairly easily and so be able to play her version of what you guys are playing fairly easily. She may be playing 'well' by her definition, and what you are exposing her to with Kevin Burke recordings is a new definition of playing well which can be very threatening. Exposing her to recordings and exciting live concerts is a great idea to help her want to get it, but as soon as she acknowledges that there is an aspect to it that she doesn't actually have yet she may feel differently about it. She will have to accept being a beginner again at some level, and the more she accepts that the style really is completely different to what she's been playing the more she will have to accept that she doesn't really know much at all in terms of this style. That's hard for some players to deal with.
Just acknowledging those feelings is important, dealing with the problem is much easier after that. Then you can help her get access to resources that can help her be less of a beginner quickly, like a fiddle teacher, or a great player to have tunes with, or a workshop etc.
I think you should be having this "discussion" with her instead of "about" her. I'm classically trained, I'm in a band, and I'm relatively new at Irish trad fiddle and it takes a lot of work. The best thing is not to have unrealistic expectations of her. She might be good with technique and tone and all that stuff but you figure, how long did that take in one genre? It might very well take that long to "learn" another. That's my motto right now. I'm not a fast learner. Be patient, and above all, the judgmental bull will turn her off sure as anything, such as silverspeare's dig:
"I've tried to "convert" classical violin players by playing Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, etc. albums at them. It never works. The violin players in question just sit there, confused over how such scratchy fiddle playing can be considered top flight Irish music.
You either get it or want to get it and are open minded about it, or not."
Those already immersed must have just the type of open mind they want the newbees to have. Be someone who is supportive and offers constructive criticism when called for. Trying to push someone new to a genre won't make them "get" it any faster or make them into the type of player you think they ought to be overnight just because they "know" their instrument well already.
You can show them the path, but don't be surprised if they don't take it. And some people just can't see the path even when it is pointed out to them, so rooted are they in what they learned the way they learned it. If the band survives for a long enough time, quite a bit will rub off on them, even if they don't conciously set out to change....
Many of the best classical violinists can't really get into Irish music although they may want to and have real appreciation of it, for the simple reason that they're so busy professionally that they just don't have the time and opportunity for two or three years' solid immersion in the music to achieve their aim. Yehudi Menuhin was a prime example (which he freely admitted) despite his abiding enthusiasm for Irish and Scottish music.
It happens too with musicians from the classical and other genres trying to get into jazz.
In fact, you could probably say that the higher profile you have in classical music the more difficult it is to play at the top level in other genres. I'm not saying it can't be done, tho'; there are pianists who do it.
Lots of violinists (off all caliber) dabble in genres other than classical, hoping their training will enable them to play. But few seem to hear how bad a job they make of it.
I wonder how much of that is from a concept of perfection taught with certain classical methods. Metronomic tempo, no open string notes, plenty of vibrato, consonant intervals, playing as written, no beer. I'm just thinking out loud.
It's an entirely different mind set and approach to making music. I teach a fair number of folks coming over from classical training (and I took a year's worth of university violin in the middle of my Irish fiddling arc). The things violinists struggle most with are freeing up their bowing (playing the feel of the rhythm and timing rather than counting every dotted quarter note, etc.) and letting the music dance. That's not easy after years of focusing on tone and sight reading. Even Suzuki students who learn to play by ear in the beginning seem to have a hard time hearing the music in their heads and responding to that.
Let alone letting go and playing music that isn't meant to be "pretty."
I just brought this up because I don't know what the best way of communicating how I feel about her playing. And the "problem" I have with it can be said most succinctly as I've never heard her ornament a quarter note, or play a variation. and when I wrote down a melody I learned by ear from the singer for her, I later realized the singer was singing a different note in one place, and after pointing it out several times she still played the wrong note for more than a handful of gigs. I'm pretty much stuck playing with this fiddler If I want to play in this band, and there are not a lot of bands around here to choose from, and I'm not moving for at least a couple more years. while a second fiddler isn't an option, I want to do all I can to bring out the best in this player, which is a role I have played in other groups (when somebody's friend gets in the band and somebody is a drummer or singer so they don't know how a player of that instrument should sound).
It's a shame I couldn't get her (or any of the band save the flutist) to see Martin Hayes opening for Dervish last year when they passed through. I certainly enjoyed it. I guess it's just a matter of waiting for the next good fiddler to come and dragging her out. Danu was just here on March 17th, we were playing two gigs so I couldn't go.
Earl, is she your friend? If she's your friend then you stand a chance. You can be honest with freinds. If you wouldn't class her as a freind then the only way to have the slightest chance of making it work would be to make freinds with her first.
Administer a mild antipsychotic like chlorpromazine and deprive her of sleep for a week to ten days while playing Nell Galvin and Junior Crehan over headphones. Works every time.
Earl, it sounds like she may take this as your taste in music vs. hers, and that won't lead anywhere constructive. "Never try to teach a pig to sing--it's a waste of your time and annoys the pig."
How much of the nuance do you put into your own playing? Does the rest of the band care? What sort of sound is this group after?
OR.... the first thought I had (not sure if its a cross post):
If everyone else in the band thinks she and/or her playing is lovely, then you are probably stuck with her. If that is the case then you might want to consider just how much her playing offends you, and if its bad enough you've got two choices, risk an intervention, where you might step on toes, and possibly fix the problem.... or the other p*ss everyone including her off, and you have to leave the band, or recover from a bloody social incident.
That's why sessionry is my thing. When I am there Im there when Im not IM not. I hope someday to form a duo, or a group of 3 tops, but "bands" are hassle.
I guess some history would be in order. I got into banjo after years of playing fiddle, and a fiddle playing friend of mine who was moving away asked me to join this band, and their previous banjo player (who played 5 string) had also quit. I ended up joining as a banjo player because there are not many other banjo players in the area and another girl was asked to play fiddle. This particular band had mostly played songs before i joined, The previous fiddle player and my mentor had brought some tunes to the band, and the fiddle player before that had written one tune for the band. So there was a history of tune playing. When I joined I became great friends with the flute player who had been to sessions and studied with two great players. We brought more traditional and post traditional tunes into the band's repertoire, this was around the same time that the new fiddle player started showing up, and she has learned a good handful of tunes so far, and everyone in the band is for it, especially when we are frequently asked to play 3 hour gigs for some regular hosts of ours. The problem is I have been unable to get this fiddle player interested in some great music that would bring her to a whole new level, as she seems to have taken a long haitus from music before joining. There is no reason why we shouldn't be friends llig. She doesn't really come hang out with the rest of the band when we go camping and such, and when I bring my fiddle, but I have no dislike for this person. I have been very capable of inspiring people to love playing music more than they already do in the past, but have been unable to move this person, as far as I can tell.
I read one of your intermediate posts Earl. Fiddlers fiddlers everywhere, but where is a GOOD one?! I hear ya.
I wish there was someone for me to "look up" to around here, but there isn't only people to look "across at", and really that's a drag. There's always getting better myself.... uh.. yeah, which I do, but it's such a long process, I am sure if there was a way for me to swallow a magic pill, or someone could wave a wand over my head, show me the quintessential You-Tube vidoe, and make me into a master of variation, and ornamentation, I'd be first to beg for it, so if you get the answer to this thread, I'll be keen to read it.
Also, are you guys making money? Does she get out the sheet music at gigs? snicker snicker.. if she does, then well, if you've been tolerating that then, you've made your own bed!
To leave the band would be a cop out, and she is not a horrible player, but If I want to bring a tune into the band repertoire, she has to learn it, which means I have to write it out, which gets expensive if I start printing too many tunes hoping one will catch on, or in case some happen to be too hard (oops). I am pretty good at transcription but I can never convey everything in the page, and it's hard to impress the idea of ornamentation and pulse. Everyone in the band does seem to be improving playing together, so this would definitely be a bad time to quit. I've invested so much time in this already. I have started another band which got put on the backburner in March when the other was doing a ton of gigs. The venues were packed this March wherever we were playing and it was a great time!
We made good money last month, can't say how the rest of the year will go? I'd say we did much better than last year so far. No sheet music at gigs. One singer does have lyrics and I think chord and capo notes, which we tease him for constantly. I have notes for singer's keys, because I usually just use a capo when the singer says, " I think this is out of my range".
She's never gonna improve if you keep giving her tunes written out. Get your fiddle out and teach her a tune phrase by phrase. Do it in the back of the car/bus on the way to the gig.
And if she sais she'd rather have it written out, you can always say it's too expensive. (did anyone else not get that one?)
You need to write it out? I use written tunes, but I write the notes myself if it's a complicated tune so that I can learn it faster. This method still requires me to pick out all the notes by ear as I go along. And just to remind those who might jump on me: I have a short term memory problem from an accident, so I need a memory jog when playing most days. But I would ask her to write her own notations to force her to listen.
Haha. Just tell her if she can't be bothered learning by ear (or transcribing herself from a recording if she's that dependent on the dots) then you can't be bothered writing it out for her.
Fair play Fiddlechick about your short term memory problem. Though, I think Michael's idea about going over the tunes phrase by phrase may be better in this case. I could be wrong. Just thinking it is a good way to get across things like articulation & phrasing as well as make a closer musical connection between Earl & his friend.
Yeah I have to write it out, She doesn't want to take the time to do phrase by phrase which is how I teach tunes to most people. Personally I do better with notation, but I am a good reader, and I usually don't try to learn something I haven't heard, bla bla bla, that's that other discussion. As far as cost goes Lllig. printer ink and paper do cost money. right now I'm down to some sort of marroon ink in my printer and am debating when to go dish out 40 bucks for a new black cartridge. Also there is opportunity cost, I could use that ink to transcribe new tunes that I am learning instead of using it to write out tunes for somebody that may or may not play them.
It goes like this, Someone says, are there any tunes we could play this week that are new since we don't really need to practice that much old stuff. I say, yeah I've had this one in my head to go with that other one we've been learning. Fiddle player says, "well, I don't know that one." I say, knowing she is not going to try to learn phrases from me, or pick it up as we play it. "maybe I have the music in my folder...Oh wait, I never got around to transcribing ( or printing) that one, maybe we could just do one of these other 25 or so tunes that I have to make it easy, (I just want to play some tunes), but then there is the question as to whether I have worked out a chord progression. Often the bouzouki player will be able to put together the chords If I tell them what they are going to be and in which part (A or B), and then he can tell the bass player what he's playing, if he doesn't already know, that's because these guys are good learners and they WANT new material to play as much as I do. Really I don't know why these obstacles are so defeating. Session players, myself included, learn new tunes every month, often on the fly, often a bit at a time, from one session to another, and we just go from tune to tune like they are paragraphs in a story. If there were only a way to get her to experience that reality in the way that many of us have. It just makes me realize what a gift it is to be truly moved by tune playing and I still wonder why it is difficult for some folks to identify one tune from another, they obviously don't hear it the same way I do.
Miss L, For my part, having started in a band when I was inexperienced (although far from unmotivated), the attraction was to play with friends, who were all at about the same musical level as I was. And being able to set our own pace, and pick our own tunes to play. I look back at what we were doing, and cringe, but we had fun doing it!
And our band has a mix of people who learn by ear, and those that learn by dots, and those who memorize lyrics, and need them printed in front of them, but regardless of their approach, all bring something special to the mix. Sometimes it is difficult to draw all the approaches together into a cohesive approach, but it can be fun also. In a session, a homogeneous approach works well, but in a group, bringing together diversity can make for some interesting results.
Part of musicianship is adjusting one's playing to fit the repertoire. And another part of musicianship is adjusting the repertoire to fit the players around you.
It goes both ways.
What will she sound good playing? What brings the best out in her?
From reading above I get the feeling you are the most experienced member of this band, that means you therefore are the "glue", you are the "tune picker" when nobody else can think of anything, and you give advice when it is sorely needed. Maybe some time when nobody else is around so she is less likely to feel embarrassed, let her know that she is expected to figure out tunes for herself, the most anyone can be hassled with is playing it for her into a recorder, or pointing her in the direction of a recording you all like of it, and if you find it uacceptable for someone to be reliant on sheet music as a crutch just tell her.
How can it POSSIBLY take more time to learn a tune phrase by phrase from a friend then it does memorizing it off paper? That is just crazy talk, you might be doing her a favor by putting your foot down.
How much trouble would it be to bring your fiddle to a gig & play a couple of sets with you & her both playing fiddle? You would still play banjo most of the time. So is this a workable concept, or not?
Al, it's one thing if the "band" just plays in their garage, or at family picnics. And it's another, dreary, thing if such a band starts taking gigs away from real musicians.
Besides, a homogenous session sounds dull to me. Nothing wrong with healthy diversity at a session. And no pretense of less experienced players trying to be something they're not ready to be.
From what I've read of Earl's posts, this violinist should be eagerly seeking out help and mentoring from her band mates, and taking lessons from a fiddler, and putting top priority on learning to use her ears for something besides jug handles. Credentials don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing....
Random, that's the best suggestion yet on this thread. And if Ms. Violin truly wants to play fiddle, she should also avail herself of every jot of personal knowledge Earl holds on the subject.
So you're working out chord progressions for the zouk player as well? This sounds like hell and also like you're working harder than everyone else since they can't be bothered doing these things for themselves.
I'd seriously tell this violinist that she needs to either transcribe tunes herself from recordings or learn by ear. Or I'd find a new band.
"Taking gigs away from real musicians"... well, when you play "out", it's a job, and that's about the folks that hired you, not you. They hire a band that they like, which may or may not have to do with your idea of musicianship. Maybe they want the rock and fusion sound over pure drop, maybe they want to get people drinking so they hire a group that specializes in pub comedy songs, or maybe it's a ceili and they want the most authentic pure drop folks.... More often than not, they'll chose a band that can play relatively well (according to their and the fans' standards) but also get the crowd going (some sort of stage presence). Not sure I get what the "real musicians" is about. Everyone is on a different level. I'll never be an Alaisdair Fraser... does that mean I can never play in front of people in a band? Although taboo, I even take my stand with some songs and notes, etc. on stage at gigs. No one seems to care... not the guys in the band, not the fans that show up, and usually not new folks that come to here us play. Being in a band is all about having a good time for us and our fans. We're even sharing a stage with some other big name Celtic rock bands, like Seven Nations this summer... they don't give a rats behind either. It's usually the folks that only play at sessions or at home that seem to care... and the ones that only see room for pure drop as a genre. Sorry to rant, but the pretentiousness of the "real musicians" thing just got me going... or at least it came off as some real snobbery to me.
I am not the most experienced. I am pretty sure the flute player has been playing music longer than I have. But I am am the most experienced when it comes to fitting melody and harmony together, as she only plays wind instruments. The Zouk player can figure out chords for himself most of the time, but usually there is somebody having trouble with every new song or tune. I am not the leader, but I am a go to with questions that pertain to the music itself, consequently I take it easy on myself when set up and tear down time come around (I still do more than said violin player)
As I said, I'm working on a new band, but it will never grow to be as successful as this one seems to be right now within this year. It takes at least a year to build a fan base and record a CD, and a base of venues who will hire you at least once a year. I am going to continue to play in this band for the time being, because that's just how I am, I don't like to quit, and dislike fickleness in general. I also don't believe in talent, there is only will.
Didn't choose words well by saying 'homogeneous' above. The point I was trying to make was that a mix of session musicians, and music readers from a more classical background, can work well in a group, where people have time to arrange things, practice together, etc. But people with that much of a diverse musical background wouldn't make a very good crew for a session.
I have seen some awesomely talented musicians from other genres get introduced to the Irish tradition...they speak a different language, but they can learn. The process can be slow, so at times, it can be frustrating, but if you are patient, unless the person you are working with has rocks for ears, they will come around.
As far as taking gigs from 'real' musicians, there are many low paying opportunities for less experienced musicians to get their start with. For example, around here, in March, pretty much everyone who puts together a group of Irish musicians can get work without anyone losing an opportunity, there are too many jobs for the musicians available!
How to influence a "violin" player
How to influence a "violin" player
I'm in a band (I play tenor banjo in this particular group) where the fiddle player is more of a violin player and even the fiddle influence in her playing is more american with very little irish fiddle influence in her playing. In car rides to gigs in the past I have put Kevin Burke and other great fiddle recordings in the CD player to try and catch her ears. What else can I do to gently suggest she take influence from Irish fiddle playing. I want to open her ears to many different tunes, so we can take the best of them and integrate them into what we are doing. I have already turned the flute player on to the tunes and have brought her to several sessions and taught her many tunes and she taught me many she learned in the past. It's a case of a band having the celtic fever, but I want to show them some of the real stuff that they are missing to get closer to "pure drop."
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
you can lead a horse to water, but pencil must be lead.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by ...
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
she's gotta want it. You can't make her
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by ...
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
You gotta make her want it, really want it. You can't go waving your magic wand in her face hoping for a quick result. It might take a while before she gets a total grip on it, it may never come. Have you tried getting her drunk?
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by strayaway
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I've tried to "convert" classical violin players by playing Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, etc. albums at them. It never works. The violin players in question just sit there, confused over how such scratchy fiddle playing can be considered top flight Irish music.
You either get it or want to get it and are open minded about it, or not.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
What sort of music does your band play? Fiddle, flute (I'm guessing silver), and tenor banjo...if you're not already playing Irish, then you may just have to put up with the "Celtic" nonsense.
It's amazing how many people don't hear the details that make this music what it is. You can help them hear, but they have to want to listen.
You can lead a violinist to the well, but you can't make her think.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
A good Irish-style fiddle teacher would be a big help, I think. Especially one with some understanding of both worlds. I know it made a huge difference for me.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by John Galt
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Have you explained to her the different styles ? , If you have and she is still not interested you will either have to live with it or get another fiddler.
If not , I think the best bet is to explain the different styles in the most kindest of ways , and hope she takes to it.
Was you post asking how to " tell " her to play more " pure drop"
Hopefully she is open to learning the more " pure drop " stuff
Good Luck
John
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by doley50
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Not sure where in the world you live...
Kevin Burke is good... I'd recommend some Martin Hayes, and some Sean Keane and/or Tommy Peoples (or Frankie Gavin, if she's a showman). Ask her to learn a common tune (you could even give her sheet music for it), then give her a recording of Tommy Peoples playing it, and ask her to learn his version...
I'll confess that I didn't have any sense of what variation on Irish music was until I tried to do that myself... It was quite the revelation.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Georgi
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
It's my experience that when trying to "influence" people if recordings don't always do the trick then you might have to take her along to actually physically see a musician/s perform the style of music you are so interested in exposing her to. Sometimes an individual musician performing live can have a huge impact on someone. I'll never forget the first time I saw the Clare concertina player Dympna O'Sullivan live, in a noisy bar in Kilrush some years ago. I'd heard her a bit on radio etc. but seeing her live was an overwhelming experience. A similiar thing happened when I met Nth Leitrim box player Jim Connolly, completely sent my head into a spin and gave me enormous amount of inspiration to change/develop a lot of aspects to my music taht I'd never even considered, mostly to do with timing, rhythm, and tempo.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I don't think you can get her interested if she doesn't want to be. However, how about suggesting she attend some kind of workshop or Irish fiddle weekend. That might spark her interest.
I used to play in a band with a violinist who had some very classy credentials and technique. She didn't make a great fiddler, ever. I tried with Kevn Burke, and others, and she was hardly interested. One time on a long car journey, though, I hit her with some Michael Coleman tracks and she was rivetted. Interestingly, when I told her that he was considered the greatest Irish fiddler by many, she said that she could totally see why and that his technique was amazing.....
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by kris
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Get another fiddler. I don't mean replace her. I mean get an extra fiddler, so that she learns by proximity. Won't even have to say anything.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
The last thing we want is a Kevin Burke clone (and he's one of my favorites), keep up the inspiration give her a stack of different players including scottish canadian etc and hope for the best.
And then be happy to work with what you've got.
Irish music is just a little bit more intoxicated than its near relatives, perhaps a little social lubricant would help?
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
There any sessions you can drag her to that have good fiddlers? I once met a professional classical violinist who may or may not have been wildly impressed with Irish, or on this case Scottish, fiddling had been sober and listening to a recording, but when he was off his head and listening to my mate playing fiddle, he thought it was the most amazing music he had ever heard in his life.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I was thinking, There might be a movie in this - girl Classical violinist listens to Coleman or someone and suddenly 'gets' trad music: cue for her to see unicorns, stone circles, Enya levitating around her castle, and other such things.
But if she plays 'Celtic', maybe she sees them already, and doesn't want to give them up; maybe that is the problem.
There could indeed be a movie here. But it would have to be *very* good, or it would probably be abominable.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by nicholas
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I echo mcknowall above. And if, as a last resort, she doesn't react to exposure to Sean Maguire, then you're definitely up against a brick wall.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Jerry O'Donnell
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Llig said it all, really, albeit briefly.
A musician with an ear hears what they like (or envisions it) and that is what they try to play. If they keep their mirror polished, they will be able to hear how effectively they are accomplishing this.
But in the end, IMHO, embracing a style or tradition in music starts with hearing something that touches/moves/inspires you and saying to yourself,
"I want to do THAT too."
As in, is it Tommy Peoples that grabs her, or Jean Luc Ponty?
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Piece
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I'm not sure that you should be trying to influence her. She is playing in her own style - a style presumably built up over the years from listening to other fiddlers and violinists, and cherrypicking the bits she likes, to produce something that is her own.
How would you feel if she turned round and said "I want you to play Jazz?" That is no different to you wanting her to play pure drop.
If her style/interest isn't the same as the rest of the band's, then either you find a way to blend the two and produce something unique, or you go your separate ways.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by skreech
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
You could be right skreech.
But it could also be that she is not really playing in any style at all. I've come across many players, especially those with a "training", who've developed good technique and sight reading skills but who have never really listened to any kind of music closely enough to have developed any real appreciation of anything, and hence, have no style at all.
Either way though, the answer to the orriginal post is the same. It's up to her. And if it's skreech's scenario, then I agree, it's non of the OP's business.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by ...
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I believe fully in learning by listening, not by reading, but here's a thought:
As a starting point you might ask if she could follow some of the bowings in Matt Cranitch's book -- or someone else's Irish bowings -- by playing through a tune or two (or nine, but keeping ornaments to a bare minimum).
Since she can read, this would be easy for her, even though it might feel awkward. If she listens while she plays, she might notice how the bowings change her sound, and she could find some enthusiasm for learning more -- by listening, eventually.
Best case, she'd start changing her bowings in the band, and that would set you in the right direction.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Jmbu
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Hey Earl. Well she's playing in a 'band' with you and not an orchestra which implies that she is at least somewhat interested in playing something not written by Mozart. I think you may be dealing a little bit with comfort level in terms of areas of expertise. If she's classically trained she may have some chops and tone and be able to play in tune and pick up tunes fairly easily and so be able to play her version of what you guys are playing fairly easily. She may be playing 'well' by her definition, and what you are exposing her to with Kevin Burke recordings is a new definition of playing well which can be very threatening. Exposing her to recordings and exciting live concerts is a great idea to help her want to get it, but as soon as she acknowledges that there is an aspect to it that she doesn't actually have yet she may feel differently about it. She will have to accept being a beginner again at some level, and the more she accepts that the style really is completely different to what she's been playing the more she will have to accept that she doesn't really know much at all in terms of this style. That's hard for some players to deal with.
Just acknowledging those feelings is important, dealing with the problem is much easier after that. Then you can help her get access to resources that can help her be less of a beginner quickly, like a fiddle teacher, or a great player to have tunes with, or a workshop etc.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Twisty
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I think you should be having this "discussion" with her instead of "about" her. I'm classically trained, I'm in a band, and I'm relatively new at Irish trad fiddle and it takes a lot of work. The best thing is not to have unrealistic expectations of her. She might be good with technique and tone and all that stuff but you figure, how long did that take in one genre? It might very well take that long to "learn" another. That's my motto right now. I'm not a fast learner. Be patient, and above all, the judgmental bull will turn her off sure as anything, such as silverspeare's dig:
"I've tried to "convert" classical violin players by playing Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, etc. albums at them. It never works. The violin players in question just sit there, confused over how such scratchy fiddle playing can be considered top flight Irish music.
You either get it or want to get it and are open minded about it, or not."
Those already immersed must have just the type of open mind they want the newbees to have. Be someone who is supportive and offers constructive criticism when called for. Trying to push someone new to a genre won't make them "get" it any faster or make them into the type of player you think they ought to be overnight just because they "know" their instrument well already.
That's my 2 cents worth.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
You can show them the path, but don't be surprised if they don't take it. And some people just can't see the path even when it is pointed out to them, so rooted are they in what they learned the way they learned it. If the band survives for a long enough time, quite a bit will rub off on them, even if they don't conciously set out to change....
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Right on, Al. I've been with my band for about 4 years now, and I've learned more that way than on my own.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Use the Ludovico technique.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Many of the best classical violinists can't really get into Irish music although they may want to and have real appreciation of it, for the simple reason that they're so busy professionally that they just don't have the time and opportunity for two or three years' solid immersion in the music to achieve their aim. Yehudi Menuhin was a prime example (which he freely admitted) despite his abiding enthusiasm for Irish and Scottish music.
It happens too with musicians from the classical and other genres trying to get into jazz.
In fact, you could probably say that the higher profile you have in classical music the more difficult it is to play at the top level in other genres. I'm not saying it can't be done, tho'; there are pianists who do it.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Lots of violinists (off all caliber) dabble in genres other than classical, hoping their training will enable them to play. But few seem to hear how bad a job they make of it.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I wonder how much of that is from a concept of perfection taught with certain classical methods. Metronomic tempo, no open string notes, plenty of vibrato, consonant intervals, playing as written, no beer.
I'm just thinking out loud.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
It's an entirely different mind set and approach to making music. I teach a fair number of folks coming over from classical training (and I took a year's worth of university violin in the middle of my Irish fiddling arc). The things violinists struggle most with are freeing up their bowing (playing the feel of the rhythm and timing rather than counting every dotted quarter note, etc.) and letting the music dance. That's not easy after years of focusing on tone and sight reading. Even Suzuki students who learn to play by ear in the beginning seem to have a hard time hearing the music in their heads and responding to that.
Let alone letting go and playing music that isn't meant to be "pretty."
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I just brought this up because I don't know what the best way of communicating how I feel about her playing. And the "problem" I have with it can be said most succinctly as I've never heard her ornament a quarter note, or play a variation. and when I wrote down a melody I learned by ear from the singer for her, I later realized the singer was singing a different note in one place, and after pointing it out several times she still played the wrong note for more than a handful of gigs. I'm pretty much stuck playing with this fiddler If I want to play in this band, and there are not a lot of bands around here to choose from, and I'm not moving for at least a couple more years. while a second fiddler isn't an option, I want to do all I can to bring out the best in this player, which is a role I have played in other groups (when somebody's friend gets in the band and somebody is a drummer or singer so they don't know how a player of that instrument should sound).
It's a shame I couldn't get her (or any of the band save the flutist) to see Martin Hayes opening for Dervish last year when they passed through. I certainly enjoyed it. I guess it's just a matter of waiting for the next good fiddler to come and dragging her out. Danu was just here on March 17th, we were playing two gigs so I couldn't go.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Earl, is she your friend? If she's your friend then you stand a chance. You can be honest with freinds. If you wouldn't class her as a freind then the only way to have the slightest chance of making it work would be to make freinds with her first.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by ...
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Administer a mild antipsychotic like chlorpromazine and deprive her of sleep for a week to ten days while playing Nell Galvin and Junior Crehan over headphones. Works every time.
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by fidkid
Re: How to make a friend
Spot on, Michael.
fidkid, I think that worked, maybe, one time. Certainly not every time.
Cheers Earl!
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Try This Guy --
Relly is as you say = The "pure drop."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4wt2JQqpc8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Kx2LtClMFQ
jim,,,,
# Posted on April 5th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
And this guy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KKIcByicvU
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Earl, it sounds like she may take this as your taste in music vs. hers, and that won't lead anywhere constructive. "Never try to teach a pig to sing--it's a waste of your time and annoys the pig."
How much of the nuance do you put into your own playing? Does the rest of the band care? What sort of sound is this group after?
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
And nae offence like, but you are a banjo player
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by ...
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I'm a fiddle player
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Then hand her the banjo.
OR.... the first thought I had (not sure if its a cross post):
If everyone else in the band thinks she and/or her playing is lovely, then you are probably stuck with her. If that is the case then you might want to consider just how much her playing offends you, and if its bad enough you've got two choices, risk an intervention, where you might step on toes, and possibly fix the problem.... or the other p*ss everyone including her off, and you have to leave the band, or recover from a bloody social incident.
That's why sessionry is my thing. When I am there Im there when Im not IM not. I hope someday to form a duo, or a group of 3 tops, but "bands" are hassle.
My anti-social streak.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I guess some history would be in order. I got into banjo after years of playing fiddle, and a fiddle playing friend of mine who was moving away asked me to join this band, and their previous banjo player (who played 5 string) had also quit. I ended up joining as a banjo player because there are not many other banjo players in the area and another girl was asked to play fiddle. This particular band had mostly played songs before i joined, The previous fiddle player and my mentor had brought some tunes to the band, and the fiddle player before that had written one tune for the band. So there was a history of tune playing. When I joined I became great friends with the flute player who had been to sessions and studied with two great players. We brought more traditional and post traditional tunes into the band's repertoire, this was around the same time that the new fiddle player started showing up, and she has learned a good handful of tunes so far, and everyone in the band is for it, especially when we are frequently asked to play 3 hour gigs for some regular hosts of ours. The problem is I have been unable to get this fiddle player interested in some great music that would bring her to a whole new level, as she seems to have taken a long haitus from music before joining. There is no reason why we shouldn't be friends llig. She doesn't really come hang out with the rest of the band when we go camping and such, and when I bring my fiddle, but I have no dislike for this person. I have been very capable of inspiring people to love playing music more than they already do in the past, but have been unable to move this person, as far as I can tell.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Should read, bring her and our band to a whole new level
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I read one of your intermediate posts Earl. Fiddlers fiddlers everywhere, but where is a GOOD one?! I hear ya.
I wish there was someone for me to "look up" to around here, but there isn't only people to look "across at", and really that's a drag. There's always getting better myself.... uh.. yeah, which I do, but it's such a long process, I am sure if there was a way for me to swallow a magic pill, or someone could wave a wand over my head, show me the quintessential You-Tube vidoe, and make me into a master of variation, and ornamentation, I'd be first to beg for it, so if you get the answer to this thread, I'll be keen to read it.
Also, are you guys making money? Does she get out the sheet music at gigs? snicker snicker.. if she does, then well, if you've been tolerating that then, you've made your own bed!
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
To leave the band would be a cop out, and she is not a horrible player, but If I want to bring a tune into the band repertoire, she has to learn it, which means I have to write it out, which gets expensive if I start printing too many tunes hoping one will catch on, or in case some happen to be too hard (oops). I am pretty good at transcription but I can never convey everything in the page, and it's hard to impress the idea of ornamentation and pulse. Everyone in the band does seem to be improving playing together, so this would definitely be a bad time to quit. I've invested so much time in this already. I have started another band which got put on the backburner in March when the other was doing a ton of gigs. The venues were packed this March wherever we were playing and it was a great time!
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
We made good money last month, can't say how the rest of the year will go? I'd say we did much better than last year so far. No sheet music at gigs. One singer does have lyrics and I think chord and capo notes, which we tease him for constantly. I have notes for singer's keys, because I usually just use a capo when the singer says, " I think this is out of my range".
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
She's never gonna improve if you keep giving her tunes written out. Get your fiddle out and teach her a tune phrase by phrase. Do it in the back of the car/bus on the way to the gig.
And if she sais she'd rather have it written out, you can always say it's too expensive. (did anyone else not get that one?)
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by ...
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
You need to write it out? I use written tunes, but I write the notes myself if it's a complicated tune so that I can learn it faster. This method still requires me to pick out all the notes by ear as I go along. And just to remind those who might jump on me: I have a short term memory problem from an accident, so I need a memory jog when playing most days. But I would ask her to write her own notations to force her to listen.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Haha. Just tell her if she can't be bothered learning by ear (or transcribing herself from a recording if she's that dependent on the dots) then you can't be bothered writing it out for her.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Fair play Fiddlechick about your short term memory problem. Though, I think Michael's idea about going over the tunes phrase by phrase may be better in this case. I could be wrong. Just thinking it is a good way to get across things like articulation & phrasing as well as make a closer musical connection between Earl & his friend.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
~
& of course if she wants to write notation I would say yes. But learn a phrase, or a part, and then write it down. In my humble opinion.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Yeah I have to write it out, She doesn't want to take the time to do phrase by phrase which is how I teach tunes to most people. Personally I do better with notation, but I am a good reader, and I usually don't try to learn something I haven't heard, bla bla bla, that's that other discussion. As far as cost goes Lllig. printer ink and paper do cost money. right now I'm down to some sort of marroon ink in my printer and am debating when to go dish out 40 bucks for a new black cartridge. Also there is opportunity cost, I could use that ink to transcribe new tunes that I am learning instead of using it to write out tunes for somebody that may or may not play them.
It goes like this, Someone says, are there any tunes we could play this week that are new since we don't really need to practice that much old stuff. I say, yeah I've had this one in my head to go with that other one we've been learning. Fiddle player says, "well, I don't know that one." I say, knowing she is not going to try to learn phrases from me, or pick it up as we play it. "maybe I have the music in my folder...Oh wait, I never got around to transcribing ( or printing) that one, maybe we could just do one of these other 25 or so tunes that I have to make it easy, (I just want to play some tunes), but then there is the question as to whether I have worked out a chord progression. Often the bouzouki player will be able to put together the chords If I tell them what they are going to be and in which part (A or B), and then he can tell the bass player what he's playing, if he doesn't already know, that's because these guys are good learners and they WANT new material to play as much as I do. Really I don't know why these obstacles are so defeating. Session players, myself included, learn new tunes every month, often on the fly, often a bit at a time, from one session to another, and we just go from tune to tune like they are paragraphs in a story. If there were only a way to get her to experience that reality in the way that many of us have. It just makes me realize what a gift it is to be truly moved by tune playing and I still wonder why it is difficult for some folks to identify one tune from another, they obviously don't hear it the same way I do.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Sounds a bit like "H e l l" and stagnation to me. I feel for you.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Twisty
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I don't understand why people who are so musically inexperienced and/or unmotivated think they need to be a band.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Miss L, For my part, having started in a band when I was inexperienced (although far from unmotivated), the attraction was to play with friends, who were all at about the same musical level as I was. And being able to set our own pace, and pick our own tunes to play. I look back at what we were doing, and cringe, but we had fun doing it!
And our band has a mix of people who learn by ear, and those that learn by dots, and those who memorize lyrics, and need them printed in front of them, but regardless of their approach, all bring something special to the mix. Sometimes it is difficult to draw all the approaches together into a cohesive approach, but it can be fun also. In a session, a homogeneous approach works well, but in a group, bringing together diversity can make for some interesting results.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Part of musicianship is adjusting one's playing to fit the repertoire. And another part of musicianship is adjusting the repertoire to fit the players around you.
It goes both ways.
What will she sound good playing? What brings the best out in her?
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
well said jwvansteenwyk
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Earl,
From reading above I get the feeling you are the most experienced member of this band, that means you therefore are the "glue", you are the "tune picker" when nobody else can think of anything, and you give advice when it is sorely needed. Maybe some time when nobody else is around so she is less likely to feel embarrassed, let her know that she is expected to figure out tunes for herself, the most anyone can be hassled with is playing it for her into a recorder, or pointing her in the direction of a recording you all like of it, and if you find it uacceptable for someone to be reliant on sheet music as a crutch just tell her.
How can it POSSIBLY take more time to learn a tune phrase by phrase from a friend then it does memorizing it off paper? That is just crazy talk, you might be doing her a favor by putting your foot down.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
How much trouble would it be to bring your fiddle to a gig & play a couple of sets with you & her both playing fiddle? You would still play banjo most of the time. So is this a workable concept, or not?
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Al, it's one thing if the "band" just plays in their garage, or at family picnics. And it's another, dreary, thing if such a band starts taking gigs away from real musicians.
Besides, a homogenous session sounds dull to me. Nothing wrong with healthy diversity at a session. And no pretense of less experienced players trying to be something they're not ready to be.
From what I've read of Earl's posts, this violinist should be eagerly seeking out help and mentoring from her band mates, and taking lessons from a fiddler, and putting top priority on learning to use her ears for something besides jug handles. Credentials don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing....
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Random, that's the best suggestion yet on this thread. And if Ms. Violin truly wants to play fiddle, she should also avail herself of every jot of personal knowledge Earl holds on the subject.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
So you're working out chord progressions for the zouk player as well? This sounds like hell and also like you're working harder than everyone else since they can't be bothered doing these things for themselves.
I'd seriously tell this violinist that she needs to either transcribe tunes herself from recordings or learn by ear. Or I'd find a new band.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
"Taking gigs away from real musicians"... well, when you play "out", it's a job, and that's about the folks that hired you, not you. They hire a band that they like, which may or may not have to do with your idea of musicianship. Maybe they want the rock and fusion sound over pure drop, maybe they want to get people drinking so they hire a group that specializes in pub comedy songs, or maybe it's a ceili and they want the most authentic pure drop folks.... More often than not, they'll chose a band that can play relatively well (according to their and the fans' standards) but also get the crowd going (some sort of stage presence). Not sure I get what the "real musicians" is about. Everyone is on a different level. I'll never be an Alaisdair Fraser... does that mean I can never play in front of people in a band? Although taboo, I even take my stand with some songs and notes, etc. on stage at gigs. No one seems to care... not the guys in the band, not the fans that show up, and usually not new folks that come to here us play. Being in a band is all about having a good time for us and our fans. We're even sharing a stage with some other big name Celtic rock bands, like Seven Nations this summer... they don't give a rats behind either. It's usually the folks that only play at sessions or at home that seem to care... and the ones that only see room for pure drop as a genre. Sorry to rant, but the pretentiousness of the "real musicians" thing just got me going... or at least it came off as some real snobbery to me.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
I am not the most experienced. I am pretty sure the flute player has been playing music longer than I have. But I am am the most experienced when it comes to fitting melody and harmony together, as she only plays wind instruments. The Zouk player can figure out chords for himself most of the time, but usually there is somebody having trouble with every new song or tune. I am not the leader, but I am a go to with questions that pertain to the music itself, consequently I take it easy on myself when set up and tear down time come around (I still do more than said violin player)
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
As I said, I'm working on a new band, but it will never grow to be as successful as this one seems to be right now within this year. It takes at least a year to build a fan base and record a CD, and a base of venues who will hire you at least once a year. I am going to continue to play in this band for the time being, because that's just how I am, I don't like to quit, and dislike fickleness in general. I also don't believe in talent, there is only will.
# Posted on April 7th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: How to influence a "violin" player
Didn't choose words well by saying 'homogeneous' above. The point I was trying to make was that a mix of session musicians, and music readers from a more classical background, can work well in a group, where people have time to arrange things, practice together, etc. But people with that much of a diverse musical background wouldn't make a very good crew for a session.
I have seen some awesomely talented musicians from other genres get introduced to the Irish tradition...they speak a different language, but they can learn. The process can be slow, so at times, it can be frustrating, but if you are patient, unless the person you are working with has rocks for ears, they will come around.
As far as taking gigs from 'real' musicians, there are many low paying opportunities for less experienced musicians to get their start with. For example, around here, in March, pretty much everyone who puts together a group of Irish musicians can get work without anyone losing an opportunity, there are too many jobs for the musicians available!
# Posted on April 8th 2010 by AlBrown