our english lardlord in our english town is sick of the rebel songs that get wheeled out at the end of sessions.
not because they are crap or the same ones as last week, but because he feels they are anti-english.
which bring on my question; whats the most inappropriate session song you have heard (or would like to hear) in a session.
-----
unrelated,but whilst i'm here...
i just heard the start of "Padrigs" by Flook, and it sounds just like Dancehall Days by Wang Chung.
this makes me want to cry, but not in a good way.
---
and i know i mistyped landlord, but i think lardlord is quite good, so i left it.
On second thought, I'd like to make that a qualified "Amen." Some songwriters really are poets, and the words are worthwhile. But I'm a tune guy, not a poet, so give me a good tune over a song any day.
I suppose they found it pretty hard getting the message across with anti-english tunes so they had to actually spell it out in songs. I'm with llig on this.
Anyway, if the landlord is really concerned, you could tell him the songs are really revolutionary and reformative with a tinge of protest-ant ethic in them. That should do it.
"Songs are for people who don't understand music. Songs are for people so ignorant that they require their music subtitled."
What utter rubbish this man talks.
llig, you may be right, but for the vast majority of the human race the human voice is the favourite musical instrument - there is no man made instrument that can match it for expressing emotion (as opposed to playing diddley dee).
No, songs are not just for people who don't understand music. However I don't like songs, with the exception of some gaelic songs, in the context of trad. Simply because for me the words are a pain in the ass. The detract from the actual music. Lilting fine, stories - keep them for story tellers.
But the question.....anti-English songs in and English pub with an English lan(r)dlord? Eh, don't you think that's a bit unfair, unless he happens to be Ollie Cromwell or Eddie Longshanks?
I agree with bogman, the words are, at best, a distraction. I'm not a big fan of pop music, but one of my faves is the Cocteau Twins' Blue Bell Knoll album.
I also like some Kate Bush. She has an interesting song on her latest record where the chorus is just pi, sung to maybe 50 decimal places. She said in an interview that she wanted to see if she could sing something with emotion where the words don't matter. It's very beautiful.
"Songs are for people so ignorant that they require their music subtitled."
Another brilliant comment.
However, the opposite view could be "Tunes are for people so ignorant that they can't remember or understand the words"
Personally, I love both tunes and songs although Llig does have a point especially when some songwriters utilise existing well known tunes to which they can attach their own dreary lyrics. Many great tunes are ruined this way and become cliched.
Likewise, of course, the melodies of many good songs can sound quite trite or, at best, innocuous when played as "tunes".
So, generally, I prefer either tunes or songs which can stand up on their own and aren't interchangeable.
I like gaelic song (and arabic, and others). I don't understand more than a word of it (I've worked out 'agus'). Unless I'm told I often don't know if its mouth music.
The words are, dare I say it, 'articulations', peculiar to the instrument.
I remember seeing Christy Moore at the Cambridge Folk Festival once. (don't ask what the feck I was doing there, I've no excuse, I was just a kid). He began singing that song No Time for Love, with the line:
"They took away Sacco, Vanzetti, Connolly and Pearce in their time."
"They came for Newton and Seal, Bobby Sands and some of his friends."
I started paying attention to the very very English audience so I could watch their reactions when that line came up. But when that line did come up, the consummate performer had changed it to:
"They came for Newton and Seal, Sarah Tisdall and some of her friends."
Whooping cheers of course, from the largely Guardian readership demographic that the Cambridge Folk Festival is. I couldn't believe it. What a spineless cheat.
It could be a lot to do with the language that the song is in. I'm not so sure English is the best language for song, it is great for writing and poetry, because of its particular structure; but for song, maybe gaelic and related romance languages have more to offer, a better fit, if you like. English sounds so wooden in a lot of songs, not so much the meaning of the words, but that too, but really the sound of it - very sharp, a bit cold, and hissy.
Songs in gaelic, just the sound of them, seem so very natural to the medium. You can hammer square English into a round hole, and if you hammer it hard enough it will fit and it will be a cylinder, but hey, someone's gonna end up with a headache.
I really think English has an intrinsic, slightly irritative quality about it, which can affect listeners, as well as the speakers, unconsciously perhaps. Not meaning to be unfair on English or anything (I think it's superb as an efficient means of communication), just a theory.
llig, I don't see why you would call Christy Moore a spineless cheat for doing that. It seemed to me to be wholly appropriate given the circumstances.
Remember, Christy is not there for political reasons. He's an entertainer. His job is to entertain the crowd, show them a bit of Irish craic, and make a living out of it at the same time. "Whooping cheers of course" indicates that he did his job. Would he have entertained the crowd as much if he had left it at Bobby Sands?
He gave the English crowd something they could relate to. When in Ireland, he'll give us something we relate to. He's a professional.
I'd say it more likely he changed the name because Sarah Tisdall was more topical at the time. I've heard Christy Moore sing that song at Leeds Folk Festival and also in Aberdeen. He found no need to change the lyrics on those occasions. I don't think Christy's ever been a man to back off from possible controversy.
A professional *entertainer* too, not a professional opinionator.
Sean nos singing probably illustrates the point. Don't need any additional music, it actually gets in the way. The music is already in the language, the meaning of the words is an added dimension. English doesn't do that. So if you want to hear music in an English language song, you will probably want to kick the words out. See how English can really p*ss you off sometimes.
The real question is what these differences do to the psychology of the speakers. If you speak English all your life you run the risk of ending up like llig, I reckon.
So I'm guessing llig that that was the Friday when he was followed by Runrig, Grossman & Renbourn, then Swarbrick rather than Saturday when you could have stayed to see Tom Paxton finish the night. I really must clear out the bookshelf.
Here's an example. Even if you don't know the meaning of the words, this song in gaelic sounds great. If you heard the lyrics in English, it actually detracts from the sound and sounds awkward. I don't think anyone has done this song in English besides.
The metre of English is like a horse galloping it is pentatonic I think is the word; Gaelic is more like the rhythm of the heart, for want of a better analogy, more in tune with the natural rhythms.
Music is meant to be in tune with natural rhythms, that's why it's attractive.
Brilliant sean nos version! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JEiuM_eHuw
I know the acute sense of loss that French speakers, for just one example, both historically and even today, feel if they are forced to speak English only e.g. in Canadian history.
Irish speakers must definitely have felt / do feel like that as well.
There are some great songs but certainly in todays pop music the words seem to have the same function as bodhran in trad - they give talentless wanabees a way of joining in.
that's why the Irish speak English with the syntax, etc, that they do, they are speaking it the way Irish is spoken. It makes it bearable and interesting, I guess.
Kenny:
>I'd say it more likely he changed the name because Sarah >Tisdall was more topical at the time. I've heard Christy Moore >sing that song at Leeds Folk Festival and also in Aberdeen. >He found no need to change the lyrics on those occasions. I >don't think Christy's ever been a man to back off from >possible controversy.
I think Kenny has it right. Sarah would be just as appropriate in the context of the song and Christy would be just the man to bring it up to date.
You can argue that only to mention past injustices is the kop out. E.g. people happy to sing about "the men behind the wire" but unwilling to extend the compass to the inmates of Guantánamo Bay.
Well that was just brilliant, david. Thanks for posting it.
It takes a lot of cultural fortitude to hammer English into that sort of shape, and I'd think you'd have to come from a Gaelic background culturally, if not linguistically, to treat that song in the way that Luke Kelly does there.
Hey, imagine historically being cut off from that, if you came from it. At least in America there were many other supportive influences around the music when the Irish went there. Pity the poor Irish who went to Australia, imagine; it was so cut off and repressive and singularly English for such a long time, and so painful a situation, that they actually stopped singing pretty much altogether, and Irish music (apart from the pseudo stuff from music hall England from the 1890s), died out, really until as recently as the 1970s or later.
llig, you may be right, but for the vast majority of the human race the human voice is the favourite musical instrument - there is no man made instrument that can match it for expressing emotion (as opposed to playing diddley dee)
I don't agree. You're clearly not familiar with Schubert's Quintet in C or his last three piano sonatas, or the late quartets and sonatas of Beethoven. They positively come out and grab you by the throat in order to communicate emotion and there's not a human voice in sight. All you need is the ears. Actually, you could argue with my contention that there's no human voice when I come to think of it.
I don't really care either way. When Im in the mood I quite like singing but at a tune where it's tunes being played I have zero wish to sing, im there for the tunes and thats all I want to hear/play. I even get pi$$ ed off when some twit insists on singing, or even just asks for a song, usually the dark island or carrickfergus. Saying that it aint as bad as someone asking for highland cathedral .......
Having said that there's a session near me that I attend when I can where songs get sung between a few sets and I enjoy that too, adding a little harmony where I can. Also like adding to the instrumental breaks where I can.
Instead of singing rebel songs to the object of the distain, choose a nice one, far more polite, you may even get a few billiy boys tapping their feet......
"most people don't listen to that, I think is the point he is making. They prefer songs." Exactly, they don't understand music, they want it subtitled.
And I don't agree that Christy Moore replaced Bobby Sands with Sarah Tisdall because she was more topical at the time. Why didn't he replace one of the other even less topical ones instead.
I'm not defending Bobby Sands and his friends, He was a bloody idiot who got lucky and died before any of his mates who began starving themselves first. I remember being at a festival in Letterkenny at the time and a festival parade was held up while the fools carried an empty coffin down the high street. Feckin numpties.
But at least Bobby Sands died for his cause (all be it a pathetic suicide). All Tisdall gat was a cushy 6 months in a soft prison and then a cushy job at the Guardian.
Anyway, if/when Jeremy reads this, he'll delete it. And for once, he'll be proving my point. It's got nothing to do with music.
Yeah Steve, Schubert's Quintet in C. The one with the two cellos yeah? Phewee, There is no way you can ever get as deep as that with words. Never ever anywhere near.
"Exactly, they don't understand music, they want it subtitled."
That's not the point he was making, that's the point you're making. Again.
As I recall, the time before that, that a group of people stuck their necks out like Sands did, Ireland ended up an independent republic. That's right isn't it?
Besides tunes, which are my staple music, quite regularly I need to take a good draught of gaelic songs, even if I don’t understand a word of it. This helps hugely to balance out the debilitating simplisticism of living, speaking, hearing, thinking and dreaming in lumpen English. I don’t need my music subtitled in English anyway, I agree with you to that extent.
I think I referred to Ireland the independent republic. You know the one.
Liig - I sing with a bodhran accompaniment just for people like you, who haven't learned to appreciate the human voice, the magic of words, or the primal soothing beat of a drum.
Anyway -ref the original post, I've gotten into a scrape or two over "Follow Me up to Carlow" what with its references to Saxon gore and so on. Also, referring to Danny boy as the Londonderry Air will cause unrest in certain quarters for different reasons; as will singing in in the tsyle of the Sex Pistols.
As for inappropriate songs - try sing "Come Out Ye Black and Tans" without annoying an Englishman.
Calling it Londonderry Air may cause unrest in certain quarters but not as much unrest (of the mirthful variety) in my sleeping quarters on those Sunday mornings when Ciaran Mac Mathuna called it the Derriere... Bless 'im...
I suppose someone is going to theorise here sooner or later about how native English-only speakers will *hear* the music filtered through their cultural, linguistic and rhythmic frame of reference, and how that might cause them to actually play the music; compared for example to how someone from, just say for example, a Gaelic-speaking or cultural milieu might do the same thing, and the differences, if any, in the styles of playing, and, heaven forbid, how others might hear that.
Ilig- I intend to steal that second quote. Great phrase. I might offer that there would be an occasional exception, but not many.....Certainly not the vocal morass that gets substituted from Irish music on PBS Celtic Women specials.
ITM is more than just diddley- even though it serves that purpose really well.
With the History behind the music and dance, the Landlord should go find a pub more suitable to his liking.
Llig, you are the last person who would be asked in such a situation. Get with reality.
In these parts, the only colloquial two-syllable word beginning with “lard” is “larda*rse”, not to be confused with a “landlord”, who are people who rent out apartments and houses, but who are generally referred to by civilised people as “owners”, seeing as we’re not English.
Mardarse means a moaning, complaining bugger. I haven't known it to mean anything else. Like "Just because it's a windy day, he keeps moaning about his pow getting ruffled, the poncy mardarse" for example.
yep, yep, I know. No problem. I was speaking objectively. You are not warped, Steve, you're just English. It can happen to the best. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just get down and play those tunes.
Back to OP for a while.
As a citizen of the Republic of London (not England) I couldn’t care less who disses the English (who ever ‘they’ are supposed to be these days and anyway ‘they’ probably historically deserve it). But I’ve always wondered why the Irish ‘rebel songs’ were sung in English. If they were in Gaelic this old skool nationalistic pub landlord, for instance, wouldn’t know what they were on about.
It’s a big shame ‘England’ hasn’t felt the pain of imperial subjugation in centuries because if it had there may have been a canon of English rebel songs. I suppose there were some around the time the Romans dropped in and when the Normans came calling.
Revolutionary and Reformative songs in Ireland were in English probably so the English could understand them. Simple.
In terms of "subjugation", you probably need to draw a distinction between ordinary people and the ruling classes. Historically, England has Jacobite "rebel" songs, which sentiment strikes a raw nerve, even today, with it's "European" orientation, which maybe has not even yet seen its culmination. This gets close to the bone now. England is feeling a very historical decline right now, and it has not run its course yet, nor has Europe, so hold on to your hat, yaal.
I'm just a keen old British queen, who rules the countryside,
I never disregard my high vocation.
My noble heart just bursts apart, with patriotic pride,
Against all those who gatecrash on the nation.
So when the Romans snatched our home and taxed us on our beer,
Accursed with thirst, the first to burst, was dear old Boadicea.
I really am a dear, so give the girl a cheer……
I served my time in the 1960's - 70's Belfast, Dublin, Dundalk, Edinburgh and Glasgow session and folk scenes when there was a healthy mix of songs and tunes. There appears to be (in my opinion) a move towards wall to wall tunes in the current session scene to the detriment of the general atmosphere and crack (as an Ulsterman I don't recognise the word "craic")
Indeed, certain sessions seem to discourage singing altogether. So, to all singers who play and players who sing my message is, keep on singing and spread the word.
sic
sic
our english lardlord in our english town is sick of the rebel songs that get wheeled out at the end of sessions.
not because they are crap or the same ones as last week, but because he feels they are anti-english.
which bring on my question; whats the most inappropriate session song you have heard (or would like to hear) in a session.
-----
unrelated,but whilst i'm here...
i just heard the start of "Padrigs" by Flook, and it sounds just like Dancehall Days by Wang Chung.
this makes me want to cry, but not in a good way.
---
and i know i mistyped landlord, but i think lardlord is quite good, so i left it.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by rumpole
Re: sic
there's a good chance they'd be anti-english, yes.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
Songs are for people who don't understand music. Songs are for people so ignorant that they require their music subtitled.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by ...
Re: sic
I'm currently working on a version of Danny Boy sung to the tune of the Irish Washerwoman .....
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by cStu
Re: sic
LOL
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: sic
Amen. (to llig's sentiment)
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by John Galt
Re: sic
You're good llig; have you considered standup? LOL
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: sic
On second thought, I'd like to make that a qualified "Amen." Some songwriters really are poets, and the words are worthwhile. But I'm a tune guy, not a poet, so give me a good tune over a song any day.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by John Galt
Re: sic
I suppose they found it pretty hard getting the message across with anti-english tunes so they had to actually spell it out in songs. I'm with llig on this.
Anyway, if the landlord is really concerned, you could tell him the songs are really revolutionary and reformative with a tinge of protest-ant ethic in them. That should do it.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
not rebel songs; don't say that.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
At an Anglo-German dance: The Dam Busters. (Suggested in all innocence; it took several attempts to explain why this might be a bad idea...)
µ
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Markplucker
Re: sic
Aye, oppressing a people for 800 years is all fun and games until one of them turns up in a pub and sings a song you don't like
. Keep em coming!
Seriously though, ditch the rebel songs. Stick to the tunes. Far better for both your Landlord and Irish culture in general.
llig, damn, you just made my morning
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by tradshark
Re: sic
"Songs are for people who don't understand music. Songs are for people so ignorant that they require their music subtitled."
What utter rubbish this man talks.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by 'S dat you, O'Flibberty?
Re: sic
llig, you may be right, but for the vast majority of the human race the human voice is the favourite musical instrument - there is no man made instrument that can match it for expressing emotion (as opposed to playing diddley dee).
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by DonaldK
Re: sic
But oyu certainly wouldn't want to sing Fields of Athenry at an Orange Order folk night.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by DonaldK
Re: sic
No, songs are not just for people who don't understand music. However I don't like songs, with the exception of some gaelic songs, in the context of trad. Simply because for me the words are a pain in the ass. The detract from the actual music. Lilting fine, stories - keep them for story tellers.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by bogman
Re: sic
........in general that is......... Andy M Sterwart, Dick Gaughan, Fureys and one or two others will never provoke my skip button.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by bogman
Re: sic
But the question.....anti-English songs in and English pub with an English lan(r)dlord? Eh, don't you think that's a bit unfair, unless he happens to be Ollie Cromwell or Eddie Longshanks?
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by bogman
Re: sic
I agree with bogman, the words are, at best, a distraction. I'm not a big fan of pop music, but one of my faves is the Cocteau Twins' Blue Bell Knoll album.
I also like some Kate Bush. She has an interesting song on her latest record where the chorus is just pi, sung to maybe 50 decimal places. She said in an interview that she wanted to see if she could sing something with emotion where the words don't matter. It's very beautiful.
Claire, think about it before dismissing it
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by ...
Re: sic
"Songs are for people so ignorant that they require their music subtitled."
Another brilliant comment.
However, the opposite view could be "Tunes are for people so ignorant that they can't remember or understand the words"
Personally, I love both tunes and songs although Llig does have a point especially when some songwriters utilise existing well known tunes to which they can attach their own dreary lyrics. Many great tunes are ruined this way and become cliched.
Likewise, of course, the melodies of many good songs can sound quite trite or, at best, innocuous when played as "tunes".
So, generally, I prefer either tunes or songs which can stand up on their own and aren't interchangeable.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: sic
I like gaelic song (and arabic, and others). I don't understand more than a word of it (I've worked out 'agus'). Unless I'm told I often don't know if its mouth music.
The words are, dare I say it, 'articulations', peculiar to the instrument.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by David50
Re: sic
I remember seeing Christy Moore at the Cambridge Folk Festival once. (don't ask what the feck I was doing there, I've no excuse, I was just a kid). He began singing that song No Time for Love, with the line:
"They took away Sacco, Vanzetti, Connolly and Pearce in their time."
"They came for Newton and Seal, Bobby Sands and some of his friends."
I started paying attention to the very very English audience so I could watch their reactions when that line came up. But when that line did come up, the consummate performer had changed it to:
"They came for Newton and Seal, Sarah Tisdall and some of her friends."
Whooping cheers of course, from the largely Guardian readership demographic that the Cambridge Folk Festival is. I couldn't believe it. What a spineless cheat.
For those who don't get the reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Tisdall
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by ...
Re: sic
It could be a lot to do with the language that the song is in. I'm not so sure English is the best language for song, it is great for writing and poetry, because of its particular structure; but for song, maybe gaelic and related romance languages have more to offer, a better fit, if you like. English sounds so wooden in a lot of songs, not so much the meaning of the words, but that too, but really the sound of it - very sharp, a bit cold, and hissy.
Songs in gaelic, just the sound of them, seem so very natural to the medium. You can hammer square English into a round hole, and if you hammer it hard enough it will fit and it will be a cylinder, but hey, someone's gonna end up with a headache.
I really think English has an intrinsic, slightly irritative quality about it, which can affect listeners, as well as the speakers, unconsciously perhaps. Not meaning to be unfair on English or anything (I think it's superb as an efficient means of communication), just a theory.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
llig, I don't see why you would call Christy Moore a spineless cheat for doing that. It seemed to me to be wholly appropriate given the circumstances.
Remember, Christy is not there for political reasons. He's an entertainer. His job is to entertain the crowd, show them a bit of Irish craic, and make a living out of it at the same time. "Whooping cheers of course" indicates that he did his job. Would he have entertained the crowd as much if he had left it at Bobby Sands?
He gave the English crowd something they could relate to. When in Ireland, he'll give us something we relate to. He's a professional.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by tradshark
Re: sic
I'd say it more likely he changed the name because Sarah Tisdall was more topical at the time. I've heard Christy Moore sing that song at Leeds Folk Festival and also in Aberdeen. He found no need to change the lyrics on those occasions. I don't think Christy's ever been a man to back off from possible controversy.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Kenny
Re: sic
A professional *entertainer* too, not a professional opinionator.
Sean nos singing probably illustrates the point. Don't need any additional music, it actually gets in the way. The music is already in the language, the meaning of the words is an added dimension. English doesn't do that. So if you want to hear music in an English language song, you will probably want to kick the words out. See how English can really p*ss you off sometimes.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
The real question is what these differences do to the psychology of the speakers. If you speak English all your life you run the risk of ending up like llig, I reckon.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
So I'm guessing llig that that was the Friday when he was followed by Runrig, Grossman & Renbourn, then Swarbrick rather than Saturday when you could have stayed to see Tom Paxton finish the night. I really must clear out the bookshelf.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by David50
Re: sic
duij: In two words. "Luke Kelly"
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by David50
Re: sic
Here's an example. Even if you don't know the meaning of the words, this song in gaelic sounds great. If you heard the lyrics in English, it actually detracts from the sound and sounds awkward. I don't think anyone has done this song in English besides.
The metre of English is like a horse galloping it is pentatonic I think is the word; Gaelic is more like the rhythm of the heart, for want of a better analogy, more in tune with the natural rhythms.
Music is meant to be in tune with natural rhythms, that's why it's attractive.
Brilliant sean nos version!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JEiuM_eHuw
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
Stairway to Heaven would probably even sound better in Gaelic than English, but hey, it's an excellent effort as it is. So there.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
I know the acute sense of loss that French speakers, for just one example, both historically and even today, feel if they are forced to speak English only e.g. in Canadian history.
Irish speakers must definitely have felt / do feel like that as well.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
There are some great songs but certainly in todays pop music the words seem to have the same function as bodhran in trad - they give talentless wanabees a way of joining in.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by bogman
Re: sic
that's why the Irish speak English with the syntax, etc, that they do, they are speaking it the way Irish is spoken. It makes it bearable and interesting, I guess.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
pop music is the music born from the English language, same personality.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
Kenny:
>I'd say it more likely he changed the name because Sarah >Tisdall was more topical at the time. I've heard Christy Moore >sing that song at Leeds Folk Festival and also in Aberdeen. >He found no need to change the lyrics on those occasions. I >don't think Christy's ever been a man to back off from >possible controversy.
I think Kenny has it right. Sarah would be just as appropriate in the context of the song and Christy would be just the man to bring it up to date.
You can argue that only to mention past injustices is the kop out. E.g. people happy to sing about "the men behind the wire" but unwilling to extend the compass to the inmates of Guantánamo Bay.
- chris
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: sic
Diuj: I was going to post this link earlier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBndHNJoC0k but I didn't because I thought you might rightly say that it was Irish English.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by David50
Re: sic
Well that was just brilliant, david. Thanks for posting it.
It takes a lot of cultural fortitude to hammer English into that sort of shape, and I'd think you'd have to come from a Gaelic background culturally, if not linguistically, to treat that song in the way that Luke Kelly does there.
Hey, imagine historically being cut off from that, if you came from it. At least in America there were many other supportive influences around the music when the Irish went there. Pity the poor Irish who went to Australia, imagine; it was so cut off and repressive and singularly English for such a long time, and so painful a situation, that they actually stopped singing pretty much altogether, and Irish music (apart from the pseudo stuff from music hall England from the 1890s), died out, really until as recently as the 1970s or later.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
llig, you may be right, but for the vast majority of the human race the human voice is the favourite musical instrument - there is no man made instrument that can match it for expressing emotion (as opposed to playing diddley dee)
you stand corrected...cello
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by scordion
Re: sic
I don't agree. You're clearly not familiar with Schubert's Quintet in C or his last three piano sonatas, or the late quartets and sonatas of Beethoven. They positively come out and grab you by the throat in order to communicate emotion and there's not a human voice in sight. All you need is the ears. Actually, you could argue with my contention that there's no human voice when I come to think of it.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: sic
most people don't listen to that, I think is the point he is making. They prefer songs.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
I don't really care either way. When Im in the mood I quite like singing but at a tune where it's tunes being played I have zero wish to sing, im there for the tunes and thats all I want to hear/play. I even get pi$$ ed off when some twit insists on singing, or even just asks for a song, usually the dark island or carrickfergus. Saying that it aint as bad as someone asking for highland cathedral .......
Having said that there's a session near me that I attend when I can where songs get sung between a few sets and I enjoy that too, adding a little harmony where I can. Also like adding to the instrumental breaks where I can.
Instead of singing rebel songs to the object of the distain, choose a nice one, far more polite, you may even get a few billiy boys tapping their feet......
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: sic
"most people don't listen to that, I think is the point he is making. They prefer songs." Exactly, they don't understand music, they want it subtitled.
And I don't agree that Christy Moore replaced Bobby Sands with Sarah Tisdall because she was more topical at the time. Why didn't he replace one of the other even less topical ones instead.
I'm not defending Bobby Sands and his friends, He was a bloody idiot who got lucky and died before any of his mates who began starving themselves first. I remember being at a festival in Letterkenny at the time and a festival parade was held up while the fools carried an empty coffin down the high street. Feckin numpties.
But at least Bobby Sands died for his cause (all be it a pathetic suicide). All Tisdall gat was a cushy 6 months in a soft prison and then a cushy job at the Guardian.
Anyway, if/when Jeremy reads this, he'll delete it. And for once, he'll be proving my point. It's got nothing to do with music.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by ...
Re: sic
Yeah Steve, Schubert's Quintet in C. The one with the two cellos yeah? Phewee, There is no way you can ever get as deep as that with words. Never ever anywhere near.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by ...
Re: sic
"Exactly, they don't understand music, they want it subtitled."
That's not the point he was making, that's the point you're making. Again.
As I recall, the time before that, that a group of people stuck their necks out like Sands did, Ireland ended up an independent republic. That's right isn't it?
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
duh, not quite. You referring to Ireland the country, or Ireland the island? It's all bloody nonsense that belongs in silly songs
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by ...
Re: sic
Besides tunes, which are my staple music, quite regularly I need to take a good draught of gaelic songs, even if I don’t understand a word of it. This helps hugely to balance out the debilitating simplisticism of living, speaking, hearing, thinking and dreaming in lumpen English. I don’t need my music subtitled in English anyway, I agree with you to that extent.
I think I referred to Ireland the independent republic. You know the one.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
Liig - I sing with a bodhran accompaniment just for people like you, who haven't learned to appreciate the human voice, the magic of words, or the primal soothing beat of a drum.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by RockyRoader
Re: sic
Anyway -ref the original post, I've gotten into a scrape or two over "Follow Me up to Carlow" what with its references to Saxon gore and so on. Also, referring to Danny boy as the Londonderry Air will cause unrest in certain quarters for different reasons; as will singing in in the tsyle of the Sex Pistols.
As for inappropriate songs - try sing "Come Out Ye Black and Tans" without annoying an Englishman.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by RockyRoader
Re: sic
LOL. Why would you want to sing Come Out Ye Black and Tans without annoying an Englishman?
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
Calling it Londonderry Air may cause unrest in certain quarters but not as much unrest (of the mirthful variety) in my sleeping quarters on those Sunday mornings when Ciaran Mac Mathuna called it the Derriere... Bless 'im...
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: sic
I suppose someone is going to theorise here sooner or later about how native English-only speakers will *hear* the music filtered through their cultural, linguistic and rhythmic frame of reference, and how that might cause them to actually play the music; compared for example to how someone from, just say for example, a Gaelic-speaking or cultural milieu might do the same thing, and the differences, if any, in the styles of playing, and, heaven forbid, how others might hear that.
Go on, let's not talk about that.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
"Liig - I sing with a bodhran accompaniment just for people like you".
Without asking first? Bloody typical
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by ...
Re: sic
Great thread.
Ilig- I intend to steal that second quote. Great phrase. I might offer that there would be an occasional exception, but not many.....Certainly not the vocal morass that gets substituted from Irish music on PBS Celtic Women specials.
ITM is more than just diddley- even though it serves that purpose really well.
With the History behind the music and dance, the Landlord should go find a pub more suitable to his liking.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by zippydw
Re: sic
Llig, you are the last person who would be asked in such a situation. Get with reality.
In these parts, the only colloquial two-syllable word beginning with “lard” is “larda*rse”, not to be confused with a “landlord”, who are people who rent out apartments and houses, but who are generally referred to by civilised people as “owners”, seeing as we’re not English.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
lardarse rhymes with mardarse, which, oop north, means a mithering bugger.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: sic
...and if they do, there's only one possible response:
http://tinyurl.com/yzbysnc
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: sic
Cross post, I was responding to duij: "I suppose someone is going to theorise here sooner or later..."
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: sic
that's a cracker, swiv. ROFL.
Yes, it's that sh*te again.
mardarse is a very gentle interpretation, ss; round here it means a fatarse who never can get out of his own way. Not really like a publican.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
Mardarse means a moaning, complaining bugger. I haven't known it to mean anything else. Like "Just because it's a windy day, he keeps moaning about his pow getting ruffled, the poncy mardarse" for example.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: sic
yes, got that. Very gentle p*sstake isn't it. Not like raunchy, right-to-the-core stuff you hear around these parts.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
No p*sstake intended. Just my warped sense of humour.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: sic
yep, yep, I know. No problem. I was speaking objectively. You are not warped, Steve, you're just English. It can happen to the best. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just get down and play those tunes.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
llig must be out to tea. By the time I get back he's probably going to be in the clink again, dammit.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
Back to OP for a while.
As a citizen of the Republic of London (not England) I couldn’t care less who disses the English (who ever ‘they’ are supposed to be these days and anyway ‘they’ probably historically deserve it). But I’ve always wondered why the Irish ‘rebel songs’ were sung in English. If they were in Gaelic this old skool nationalistic pub landlord, for instance, wouldn’t know what they were on about.
It’s a big shame ‘England’ hasn’t felt the pain of imperial subjugation in centuries because if it had there may have been a canon of English rebel songs. I suppose there were some around the time the Romans dropped in and when the Normans came calling.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: sic
Revolutionary and Reformative songs in Ireland were in English probably so the English could understand them. Simple.
In terms of "subjugation", you probably need to draw a distinction between ordinary people and the ruling classes. Historically, England has Jacobite "rebel" songs, which sentiment strikes a raw nerve, even today, with it's "European" orientation, which maybe has not even yet seen its culmination. This gets close to the bone now. England is feeling a very historical decline right now, and it has not run its course yet, nor has Europe, so hold on to your hat, yaal.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
Oh sure. We'll give the boys a bloody good ride in Boudicca's motorca...uh, chariot.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: sic
swiv, things are getting bad there too, you must know that.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
How nice to be in England
Now that England's here,
I stand upright in my wheelbarrow,
And pretend I'm Boadicea.
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=86464
I'm just a keen old British queen, who rules the countryside,
I never disregard my high vocation.
My noble heart just bursts apart, with patriotic pride,
Against all those who gatecrash on the nation.
So when the Romans snatched our home and taxed us on our beer,
Accursed with thirst, the first to burst, was dear old Boadicea.
I really am a dear, so give the girl a cheer……
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=63796
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: sic
Yes duij, I've got the traveling road show and snake oil sales almost ready to go here. Just need to get my 1930s era gear dusted off.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: sic
get a flight ticket out too eh.
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: sic
So people do actually listen to the words?
# Posted on March 31st 2010 by len
Re: sic
I served my time in the 1960's - 70's Belfast, Dublin, Dundalk, Edinburgh and Glasgow session and folk scenes when there was a healthy mix of songs and tunes. There appears to be (in my opinion) a move towards wall to wall tunes in the current session scene to the detriment of the general atmosphere and crack (as an Ulsterman I don't recognise the word "craic")
Indeed, certain sessions seem to discourage singing altogether. So, to all singers who play and players who sing my message is, keep on singing and spread the word.
# Posted on April 1st 2010 by sam bracken