I've been trying to play a few airs recently, something I've never really tried before. But, I can't stop the bow from wobbling and thus spoiling the tune! I'm fine with faster pieces, but when I have to play slowly, I seem to lose all confidence with the bow.
Do you have any advice (such as exercises) as to how I can overcome this?
The first things to be looked at are the bow hold and relaxation in the bowing arm all the way from the shoulder to the finger tips. This relaxation is almost to get if you don't have the right sort of bow hold. I have discussed this in some detail in http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24100#comment502559. That (somewhat lengthy) comment and other comments in that discussion thread are well worth a close read. And then face-to-face lessons with a good teacher.
For this I was taught just to play a single long note, open D say, all the way from tip to frog, and back. Try to get no identifiable change in sound at the direction change... Aiming for a slow steady pace. Slight increase of pressure on little finger as you get close to frog and slight increase in first finger pressure at tip.
As the Arm extends push the right hand away from the body to maintain straight line parallel to the bridge.
Once you start to get this gently bring in the A string, at a lower volume then slowly increase the A volume till it matches, then till its louder then continue just on the A string.
As a piper we have a very similar, basic, fundamental , exercise which underpins all pipeing. slow or fast.
Yeah, ever since I started, I've been taught to practice long bow strokes from the tip to the frog. So you could try that, maybe scales up and down, even if only a few times a day, 1 stroke per note, using the whole length of the bow. Also, you could try playing regular tunes very slow and see if that helps any.
You have to practice doing it long enough so that you start feeling
in your hand the weight distribution, pressure, drag, lateral pulling,
and more. I would say unless you are very gifted, you'll have to
spend many hours in total going over and over it including checking
in the mirror or even using video. You have to program your brain.
That reminds me - I saw part of documentary recently about a young one-handed violinist. He had a wrist and a finger-like stub.
The bow was strapped on with velcro. This fellow was good
enough to graduate from Curtis Institute. You could see him
working that stub while he was bowing which reminds me of your comment lazyhound about the first finger.
Hi Sore fingers. Without seeing your bowing technique it's hard to make specific recommendations. Do you have a teacher at present? What's his/her take on the situation?
As you suggest, it may be a confidence thing. I've seen this before in students. They're happy enough to saw away at a reel or a jig, but when it comes to playing a clear consistent, well toned long note in a slow air, they hesitate and get wobbly.
Time to get that bow under control! Show it who's boss. Your bowing needs to be relaxed, but it must also be firm (if that's not a contradiction). Maybe "decisive" or "resolute" would be better words to describe it. You're bowing that note, whether it likes it or not. A long, steady, even draw. Practice it one note at a time till you start getting a nice clear, even tone. Scales might help you with this, or just keep practicing the airs. What matters is putting in the work.
Take it one note at a time, and keep at it till every note is clear and steady. Then you'll have the hang of it. And your reels and jigs will benefit greatly from it too.
You are actually asking your muscles to do something different. It's not just a case of slowing down what you already know. There is an exercise you can do, which is to play one bow stroke tip to frog and vice versa, so that a note sounds continuously for a minute (!) in each direction. What you are doing in effect is holding the bow almost stationary, but with just enough movement that your muscles are not just locked in position. You already said that it's about 'confidence', which gives a clue to what is going on. You need to have control of your muscles, which means building up new neural networks so that your brain knows how to control the muscles, which means practise. Eventually you will be able to draw out a sound without the little wobbles and jerks that come from doing something you are not used to.
Here's a video I found a week ago. I've heard it over and over to stabablize my bow with my pinkie but rarely practice the idea. It worked and I'm trying to incorporate it into my playing. I love to play slow airs and it seems to work for me, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWuZC3P-_VI
I remember I had trouble with this for ages. I practiced and practiced, but I just couldn't get rid of that wobble. Then a friend noticed that while trying to play slow, my breathing became really erratic, even holding my breath in parts. Once I sorted this out, relaxed in other words, bingo.
With classical music, you're taught to be steady on the slower pieces first. I seem to remember tackling the wobbly bow issue in the first few months of lessons as a whelp.
This is dance music, so we're often learning to play to dance speed first, and more slowly second.
Wow, I guess that's one good thing to be said for classical training?
The wobbling bow. A species of loss of control of the bow which is often caused by the bow being in motion before it contacts the string - a bit like an airplane coming in to land. If there is any stiffness in the arm, hand or fingers when you do this then when the bow contacts the string there will be a bounce which will propagate along the length of the bow stroke - the plane bouncing along the landing strip.
So, another tip. Practice starting a note with the bow stationary on the string and the the bowing hand relaxed, the arm feeling as if it is a soft rope or hawser hanging between the hand and the shoulder. Engage the hairs with the string by applying just a little bit of pressure on the stick from the first finger (don't dig in with weight). Then start moving the bow with that relaxed bowing hand and arm. If you're doing it properly there will be a steady tone and no shakiness or wobbling. When you've mastered this - which won't be in five minutes, I assure you! - you'll be able, if you wish, to attack a note with a flying bow without losing control.
Wow, thanks for all the replies! I suppose it might have been helpful to add a little of my background... I'll rectify that now. :D
I've actually been playing the violin since the age of 6 (I'm 22) but stopped having lessons when I was about 15. So actually, I come from more of a classical background. My main reason for quitting lessons was because I was fed up of being pushed into exam after exam, when I just wanna play fiddle... ya know?!
So recently I've been practising hard at my fiddle playing. When it came to the airs, I figured I'd forgotten how to bow nicely and that's why I came and asked you guys for help!
It looks like the answer to my problem is probably practise practise practise. And probably relaxing more in my arm as well.
My bow hold is fairly classical, but I have noticed that the majority of the time, my pinky is not in contact with the bow. Is that a problem? I tend to use my first finger to "drive" the bow and I'm pretty good at bowing straight (yes, I've used a mirror!).
@sore fingers, the function of the pinky is to balance the weight of the bow when you're using the lower third. The pinky, like the other fingers and thumb, should be slightly bent - and never straight - and ideally rests lightly on the stick so that pressure can be applied when needed.
If you're using the first finger to drive the bow then you've got it in one, and you're probably nearly there. The two middle fingers don't really do much except to hang relaxed and decorative over the stick. The thumb (bent of course) contacts the bow about halfway between those two middle fingers, so the separation between the first finger and the thumb gives you that essential leverage for control.
Regarding exams, when learning an instrument they can indeed be a real turn-off for some pupils, and sadly you can get some teachers who are little more than production lines for pushing kids through the exam system (grade 1 the first year, grade 2 the second, and so on, just collecting pieces of paper). Fortunately, when I studied the cello as a boy I was blessed with a teacher (an eminent professional) who had no time for "teaching" pupils through exams and competitions - he was far more concerned with producing musicians. However, after a few years, my parents (both active musicians) thought it would be a good idea for me to get some sort of paper qualification, so they sent me to another teacher. I went in, and passed, at grade eight, which says a lot for what my first teacher taught me.
In later years, after a few years playing and more or less learning fiddle music and technique at sessions and workshops, I've since been taking violin lessons via the Suzuki method, which is not exam-based. There is great on emphasis on tone and bowing control and intonation (fingering) and a Suzuki teacher won't let a pupil go on to the next stage unless the previous stage has been mastered both technically and in terms of musicianship. Here again, I've got a master teacher who trained as a classical professional at the Suzuki School in Japan and for the last 20 years in the UK has been a professional folk musician with her own band, so that's someone with decent broad spectrum and understanding of music.
Wobbling bow, or the shudders comes about usually from an unrelaxed upper arm and inexperience with slower bow speeds.
If you are generally leaning into your first finger and are able to play with your baby in the air then your tricep will be engaged more than is desirable. With tight muscles like that the only option to get sound with is to 'press' the bow into the string. You can get sound that way but it is quite difficult to control, and very easy to go too far and get a crunchy sound. It is also much more difficult to move the bow across the string slowly.
You probably didn't notice before because you've probably been playing tunes that just need short quick bow strokes probably in the upper half of the bow.
If you would like to be able to use more bow and try out slower bow speeds and get more control over your tone it would be good to try to relax that tricep so you can work more with the weight of the arm allowing the bow to sink into the strings.
It means allowing your elbow to drop a little below your wrist in the lower half of the bow.
Most people with this problem usually have a particular area of the bow where the shudders happen the worst and it's usually somewhere just above the half way point. I bet if you play at the frog it doesn't happen at all, and I bet right at the tip it's not too bad.
The solution is to work with a heavy bow arm, letting it sink into the string. Think of pulling the bow down to the floor instead of 'pressing' it. Work on pulling a straight bow back and forth in quarter sections, with a very slow bow speed. As if your bow arm were a diesel engine.
Work your way back and forth in the top quarter and then in the space from a quarter from the tip to the halfway point and back and so on down the rest of the stick. Concentrate on the slow bow speed which doesn't necessarily mean playing the song at a slow tempo.
Once you can control smaller sections of bow in different areas work on extending the amount of bow you're working with but keep thinking about sinking instead of pressing. Watch out for the bow kind of skidding along on top of the string without really settling into the string.
When that happens you lose your sound and wobbling and sometimes whistling or screechy sounds can appear. Check your arm at that point and you will probably find that you've tensed your upper arm muscles and let the weight come out of the string.
Best of luck.
Ok, I examined my technique in more detail last night. I seem to generally have correct hand/arm position. Practising slow bowing really helped. I'm getting the wobble at the heel. I'm much more comfortable with the middle and end of the bow.
Slow bowing / Airs..?
Slow bowing / Airs..?
I've been trying to play a few airs recently, something I've never really tried before. But, I can't stop the bow from wobbling and thus spoiling the tune! I'm fine with faster pieces, but when I have to play slowly, I seem to lose all confidence with the bow.
Do you have any advice (such as exercises) as to how I can overcome this?
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by sore fingers
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
The first things to be looked at are the bow hold and relaxation in the bowing arm all the way from the shoulder to the finger tips. This relaxation is almost to get if you don't have the right sort of bow hold. I have discussed this in some detail in http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24100#comment502559. That (somewhat lengthy) comment and other comments in that discussion thread are well worth a close read. And then face-to-face lessons with a good teacher.
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
For this I was taught just to play a single long note, open D say, all the way from tip to frog, and back. Try to get no identifiable change in sound at the direction change... Aiming for a slow steady pace. Slight increase of pressure on little finger as you get close to frog and slight increase in first finger pressure at tip.
As the Arm extends push the right hand away from the body to maintain straight line parallel to the bridge.
Once you start to get this gently bring in the A string, at a lower volume then slowly increase the A volume till it matches, then till its louder then continue just on the A string.
As a piper we have a very similar, basic, fundamental , exercise which underpins all pipeing. slow or fast.
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
"almost to get" should be "almost impossible to get"
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
The skill in bow control needed to play slowly and evenly will also pay off in playing fast and evenly.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Yeah, ever since I started, I've been taught to practice long bow strokes from the tip to the frog. So you could try that, maybe scales up and down, even if only a few times a day, 1 stroke per note, using the whole length of the bow. Also, you could try playing regular tunes very slow and see if that helps any.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by enirehtac
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
You have to practice doing it long enough so that you start feeling
in your hand the weight distribution, pressure, drag, lateral pulling,
and more. I would say unless you are very gifted, you'll have to
spend many hours in total going over and over it including checking
in the mirror or even using video. You have to program your brain.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Hup
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
That reminds me - I saw part of documentary recently about a young one-handed violinist. He had a wrist and a finger-like stub.
The bow was strapped on with velcro. This fellow was good
enough to graduate from Curtis Institute. You could see him
working that stub while he was bowing which reminds me of your comment lazyhound about the first finger.
--- stops to do google search --
His name is Adrian Anantawan
Here ya go - here's a video of him doing the Tchaikovsky - he's
the real deal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wkgi_frifU
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Hup
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Hi Sore fingers. Without seeing your bowing technique it's hard to make specific recommendations. Do you have a teacher at present? What's his/her take on the situation?
As you suggest, it may be a confidence thing. I've seen this before in students. They're happy enough to saw away at a reel or a jig, but when it comes to playing a clear consistent, well toned long note in a slow air, they hesitate and get wobbly.
Time to get that bow under control! Show it who's boss. Your bowing needs to be relaxed, but it must also be firm (if that's not a contradiction). Maybe "decisive" or "resolute" would be better words to describe it. You're bowing that note, whether it likes it or not. A long, steady, even draw. Practice it one note at a time till you start getting a nice clear, even tone. Scales might help you with this, or just keep practicing the airs. What matters is putting in the work.
Take it one note at a time, and keep at it till every note is clear and steady. Then you'll have the hang of it. And your reels and jigs will benefit greatly from it too.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by tradshark
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Tradshark, your last para could equally be applied to the Tchaikovsky concerto
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
You are actually asking your muscles to do something different. It's not just a case of slowing down what you already know. There is an exercise you can do, which is to play one bow stroke tip to frog and vice versa, so that a note sounds continuously for a minute (!) in each direction. What you are doing in effect is holding the bow almost stationary, but with just enough movement that your muscles are not just locked in position. You already said that it's about 'confidence', which gives a clue to what is going on. You need to have control of your muscles, which means building up new neural networks so that your brain knows how to control the muscles, which means practise. Eventually you will be able to draw out a sound without the little wobbles and jerks that come from doing something you are not used to.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by gam
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Here's a video I found a week ago. I've heard it over and over to stabablize my bow with my pinkie but rarely practice the idea. It worked and I'm trying to incorporate it into my playing. I love to play slow airs and it seems to work for me, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWuZC3P-_VI
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by crfiddler
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
I remember I had trouble with this for ages. I practiced and practiced, but I just couldn't get rid of that wobble. Then a friend noticed that while trying to play slow, my breathing became really erratic, even holding my breath in parts. Once I sorted this out, relaxed in other words, bingo.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by ...
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Just an observation.
With classical music, you're taught to be steady on the slower pieces first. I seem to remember tackling the wobbly bow issue in the first few months of lessons as a whelp.
This is dance music, so we're often learning to play to dance speed first, and more slowly second.
Wow, I guess that's one good thing to be said for classical training?
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Just want to say this thread has been immensely helpful....ty!
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by baylady
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
The wobbling bow. A species of loss of control of the bow which is often caused by the bow being in motion before it contacts the string - a bit like an airplane coming in to land. If there is any stiffness in the arm, hand or fingers when you do this then when the bow contacts the string there will be a bounce which will propagate along the length of the bow stroke - the plane bouncing along the landing strip.
So, another tip. Practice starting a note with the bow stationary on the string and the the bowing hand relaxed, the arm feeling as if it is a soft rope or hawser hanging between the hand and the shoulder. Engage the hairs with the string by applying just a little bit of pressure on the stick from the first finger (don't dig in with weight). Then start moving the bow with that relaxed bowing hand and arm. If you're doing it properly there will be a steady tone and no shakiness or wobbling. When you've mastered this - which won't be in five minutes, I assure you! - you'll be able, if you wish, to attack a note with a flying bow without losing control.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Wow, thanks for all the replies! I suppose it might have been helpful to add a little of my background... I'll rectify that now. :D
I've actually been playing the violin since the age of 6 (I'm 22) but stopped having lessons when I was about 15. So actually, I come from more of a classical background. My main reason for quitting lessons was because I was fed up of being pushed into exam after exam, when I just wanna play fiddle... ya know?!
So recently I've been practising hard at my fiddle playing. When it came to the airs, I figured I'd forgotten how to bow nicely and that's why I came and asked you guys for help!
It looks like the answer to my problem is probably practise practise practise. And probably relaxing more in my arm as well.
My bow hold is fairly classical, but I have noticed that the majority of the time, my pinky is not in contact with the bow. Is that a problem? I tend to use my first finger to "drive" the bow and I'm pretty good at bowing straight (yes, I've used a mirror!).
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by sore fingers
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
My pinky's hardly ever in contact and it doesn't bother me. But it might bother you
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by ...
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
@sore fingers, the function of the pinky is to balance the weight of the bow when you're using the lower third. The pinky, like the other fingers and thumb, should be slightly bent - and never straight - and ideally rests lightly on the stick so that pressure can be applied when needed.
If you're using the first finger to drive the bow then you've got it in one, and you're probably nearly there. The two middle fingers don't really do much except to hang relaxed and decorative over the stick. The thumb (bent of course) contacts the bow about halfway between those two middle fingers, so the separation between the first finger and the thumb gives you that essential leverage for control.
Regarding exams, when learning an instrument they can indeed be a real turn-off for some pupils, and sadly you can get some teachers who are little more than production lines for pushing kids through the exam system (grade 1 the first year, grade 2 the second, and so on, just collecting pieces of paper). Fortunately, when I studied the cello as a boy I was blessed with a teacher (an eminent professional) who had no time for "teaching" pupils through exams and competitions - he was far more concerned with producing musicians. However, after a few years, my parents (both active musicians) thought it would be a good idea for me to get some sort of paper qualification, so they sent me to another teacher. I went in, and passed, at grade eight, which says a lot for what my first teacher taught me.
In later years, after a few years playing and more or less learning fiddle music and technique at sessions and workshops, I've since been taking violin lessons via the Suzuki method, which is not exam-based. There is great on emphasis on tone and bowing control and intonation (fingering) and a Suzuki teacher won't let a pupil go on to the next stage unless the previous stage has been mastered both technically and in terms of musicianship. Here again, I've got a master teacher who trained as a classical professional at the Suzuki School in Japan and for the last 20 years in the UK has been a professional folk musician with her own band, so that's someone with decent broad spectrum and understanding of music.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Wobbling bow, or the shudders comes about usually from an unrelaxed upper arm and inexperience with slower bow speeds.
If you are generally leaning into your first finger and are able to play with your baby in the air then your tricep will be engaged more than is desirable. With tight muscles like that the only option to get sound with is to 'press' the bow into the string. You can get sound that way but it is quite difficult to control, and very easy to go too far and get a crunchy sound. It is also much more difficult to move the bow across the string slowly.
You probably didn't notice before because you've probably been playing tunes that just need short quick bow strokes probably in the upper half of the bow.
If you would like to be able to use more bow and try out slower bow speeds and get more control over your tone it would be good to try to relax that tricep so you can work more with the weight of the arm allowing the bow to sink into the strings.
It means allowing your elbow to drop a little below your wrist in the lower half of the bow.
Most people with this problem usually have a particular area of the bow where the shudders happen the worst and it's usually somewhere just above the half way point. I bet if you play at the frog it doesn't happen at all, and I bet right at the tip it's not too bad.
The solution is to work with a heavy bow arm, letting it sink into the string. Think of pulling the bow down to the floor instead of 'pressing' it. Work on pulling a straight bow back and forth in quarter sections, with a very slow bow speed. As if your bow arm were a diesel engine.
Work your way back and forth in the top quarter and then in the space from a quarter from the tip to the halfway point and back and so on down the rest of the stick. Concentrate on the slow bow speed which doesn't necessarily mean playing the song at a slow tempo.
Once you can control smaller sections of bow in different areas work on extending the amount of bow you're working with but keep thinking about sinking instead of pressing. Watch out for the bow kind of skidding along on top of the string without really settling into the string.
When that happens you lose your sound and wobbling and sometimes whistling or screechy sounds can appear. Check your arm at that point and you will probably find that you've tensed your upper arm muscles and let the weight come out of the string.
Best of luck.
# Posted on March 30th 2010 by Twisty
Re: Slow bowing / Airs..?
Ok, I examined my technique in more detail last night. I seem to generally have correct hand/arm position. Practising slow bowing really helped. I'm getting the wobble at the heel. I'm much more comfortable with the middle and end of the bow.
# Posted on March 30th 2010 by sore fingers