After the Battle of Kinsale Elizabeth 1 ordered her military to hang the harpers and burn their instrument.
How instrumental was this in the decline of the Irish Harp, or did it just speed up the decline
In the preface to his 1840 edition of The Ancient Music of Ireland Bunting includes a letter, written to him from the secretary of one of the societies founded in an attempt to preserve the harp and its music. In the letter, dated 30th July 1839, John McAdam states "Our gentry in Ireland are too scarce, and too little national, to encourage itinerant harpers, as of old; besides, the taste and fashion of music no longer bears upon our national instrument: it had its day, but, like all other fashions, it must give way to novelty."
Amazing thing, I gather the old harp was carved out of a solid lump of wood [bog oak?] then the pressure of stringing it up,wire strings, would open the soundbox up .
Back to the Harp, Celtic society was under geat and sustained pressure and the Bards Pipers and Harpers were all singled out as targets for oppression as they were essential elements in maintaining the cointinuity of the social system.
Also , I gather, the Pipes( Piob Mhor) superseded the Harp, much to the Chagrin of the Harpers, due to these changing social circumstances and social order.
Perhaps it had two effects. The decline would have been obvious at the time, though decades later, not utterly devestating . After the executions I am imagine some lamentations were being played, somewhere, on harp.
"During the autumn and winter of the year 1602, Irish music was fashionable at the Court of Queen Elizabeth. Nay, more; the virgin Queen kept an Irish harper, Donal Buidhe, in order to sooth her nerves."
Irish Music in the Seventeenth Century 1601-1650
From A History of Irish Music by William H. Grattan Flood http://www.libraryireland.com/IrishMusic/XVIII.php
I suppose Elizabeth's priority was to expel or kill the Irish leaders she saw as dangerous - and they would be principal patrons of the harpers. Itinerant harpers among the common people might then be looked upon as being curdlers of unwholesome nostalgia, influencing them to become malcontents and Enemies Of Progress.
The purge on harpers seems to have been (fortunately) not as ruthless or as thorough as Elizabeth or Cromwell might have wished - otherwise there would have been no Carolan, no convocation of Irish harpers right at the end of the c18. But a huge amount of older music and poetic repertoire must have been lost.
O'Neill's writings on the history of piping in Ireland suggest that a number of pipers were let off fairly lightly for the 'crime' of piping - meaning, playing the Highland Bagpipe equivalent, which it is not stretching things to describe as a weapon.
Patronage was the key to the survival of harping and bardic tradition generally in ireland & scotland. With the fall of gaelic influence at the courts of kings and queens and then lords and chiefs, so endeth the high gaelic arts.
The last patron commissioned harp music from scotland was composed in the western isles in south uist at the court of the MacNeil chiefs in the last quarter of the 18th century, to the best of my knowledge. After that harpers needed to find a day job.
There is a good description of it in the wiki link below, enjoy;
"After the Battle of Kinsale Elizabeth 1 ordered her military to hang the harpers and burn their instrument. How instrumental was this in the decline of the Irish Harp, or did it just speed up the decline" Anon.
No, harpers disguised themselves as farm labourers in order to avoid hanging and hid their harps in the bogs. It was the advent of the radio followed by TV and later rap that nearly did it for the harp
Nicholas and Solidmahog are right in that the wider implication of the defeat of the Gaelic chieftains was the decline of the cultural system of patronage under which the itinerant harpers flourished. Larger cultural and economic processes tend to make the difference rather than dramatic and short-lived gestures, no matter how gruesome and extreme they may seem.
What makes you believe that Elizabeth's orders after Kinsale simply increased the speed of a decline bthat was already in existence?
Well, after you kick the Gaelic gentry out of the island, it simply wouldn't do to have a bunch of their former employees roaming the countryside, plinking harps and prattling on in long poetic verse about how grand it all used to be, now would it?
Point is bogman, it's not a continuous tradition in either ireland or scotland, rather a revival.
Unlike the pipes where much was preserved vocally and continued in scotland, later being reintroduced to the pipes when things cooled, the harp wasn't as fortunate. Although I did hear Barnaby Brown talking about some old pipe music canterach he'd decoded that also preserved some harp music which is now getting played over Strathpeffer way by a Clàrsach plucking mate of his.
Don't know if I agree Solidmahog. There were so few players at any time until now anyway and there is little or no evidence that the playing actually completely died out.
I can't speak for Irish Harp but I don't think wikipedia gives a realistic explanation for the demise of the clarsach (for a relatively short time). I can't see how the patronage Gaelic Chieftains and Clan system had a major impact on the popularity of Clarsach. Certainly in this part of the world (Skye, Hebrides) the main Chieftains may employ one Clarsach player. Here in Dunvegan, probably the best known player in history, Rory Dall Morrison (the blind harper) was employed by the chief of MacLeod. But MacLeods probably controlled a third of all the land here so it's a bit rich to describe the loss of one harp player in an area this size as 'demise'.
The increase in popularity of pipes is also blamed, but the MacLeods employed the MacCrimmons for centuries before Rory Dall.
From what I can gather the Clarsach/Harp was not really widely played at all, being used mainly used to entertain and massage the egos of the most powerful clan chieftains. Nowadays I would bet there are 20 times the amount of Clarsach players in Skye than at the time of Rory Dall.
Much of this early harp music is lost, from both countries. There's the odd manuscript but most is gone. The style (pure harp drop) has certainly gone.
Wikipedia not giving a realistic explanation of something? Shocking.
If the main source of income for clarsach players was clan chieftains, then it's not too far-fetched to suggest that the decline in popularity for the clarsach was indeed related to the whole social restructuring that was happening in Scotland. If there was no money in playing clarsach for the Gaelic gentry for whatever reasons (they lost power.... they'd rather have a piper... they decided an expensive flat in Edinburgh and London was more worthwhile than a blind dude playing the harp... there's not a single explanation) and the harp didn't find a new niche, then it doesn't need legislation to cause it's decline. It becomes a self perpetuating thing -- if no one is making or teaching the harp, then there are less harpers. The Highland pipes, however, had other uses beyond entertaining the gentry, like the military. A band full of harp players marching over the hill wouldn't have the same effect. And would be awkward as feck.
I'm don't disagreeing with that TSS. What I'm saying is you can't have a 'decline in popularity' if there wasn't popularity in the first place. Who cares if a few dozen clarsach players were employed by bloodthirsty egotistical warlords who would kill their granny for a lump of rock.
bogman, we're talking history here and I agree that clàrsach is likely far more popular than it ever was. Also access to harp playing was likely only possible for a small percentage of the population of the time.
Much like being a ship builder in say wood, not many around now but at one time there would have been many, just like any trade, supply and demand.
MacLeod no doubt had the best harper in the area of his influence, but his relatives and sub chiefs would have had theirs sounds also. As would the neighbours over in the house of Donald, So there would have been a few around.
Like all things in early times trades were demarcated and common folk wouldn't have had the chance to study under a great player, hence the hereditary families in service. Unlike now where music, despite cut backs in schools etc, is flourishing.
Yes, I agree with you there Solidmahog. I would say there was never a demise, as such, as far as the general pubic is concerned, rather a growing of a basically new tradition.
Paul Dooley was instrumental in de-coding the Robert Ap Huw manuscript - notation for the harp in Wales 1623 - with tunes and reference with an Irish connection. He recorded a CD of the tunes some time ago. I believe he's working onsomething to do with this collection. The metre and sound of the tunes in this manuscript are beautiful yet foreign to how we have been trained to listen to 'Celtic' music in recent times as it has evolved since then.
Aye. I'd agree with both of you guys there. Maybe "popularity" was the wrong word.
Does anyone know if the numbers of harp players actually declined over a given period? Certainly the style of playing changed but we seem to be taking it for granted that less people played the instrument. Has this been documented in any way?
Santa!!!!!! Please don't tell me he has a white beard, plays the bodhran badly and ruins sessions??? We have one on Skye and my mate, who's a fiddler from Newcastle ,says they have an exact duplicate there too.
Na bogman thats one of the dreaded bodhran brothers you speak of, he meets up with his pal and bothers us on the mainland also, until they were chased that is, our santa is grey at worst and doesn't bother anybody, the piper over the road tells me he knows his stuff, re olden days relevant sounds .
Man, it's great to hear there are still good santas about! Santas' little helper has happily left the Island. How did you guys manage to get rid of the bearded one?
Maybe one of the Santas in Newcastle or Skye is simply a Brocken spectre of the other. These are illusions projected across the void by singular weather conditions, of which both places manifest an ongoing plurality - though Skye is bound to have the edge here.
See if either one casts a shadow, or if you can see ships or cars passing through him.
Silver Spear
Santa has not transcended the laws of physics. Quantum mechanics states quite clearly that an atom may be in two places at the same time; although, to be fair this is only at atomic level and is not manifested at macro level.
Perhaps the Santas of Skye and Newcastle *are*, in fact, a couple of saints. Or more to the point, one saint.
Some Saints in history are said to have been capable of bilocation - that is, being in two places at the same time. St. Paul and Padre Pio are examples. Their powers in this life presumably extend to the next, along with the possibility of re-visits to the earthly vale of tears for one reason or another.
So this guy may be a Saint of old, come to sojourn with you a while, see what you're up to, and report back to his Maker. If his looks and abilities aren't up to much - well, that's part of the disguise. If you treat him with kindness and hospitality, unforeseen blessings might come your way (such as not being in The Cumberland when it finally detaches itself from its cliff-top and crashes into the gorge), and if you treat him with harshness and arrogance he might depart with a colossal thunderclap, bestowing on you the plagues of Egypt including lice and piles like chandeliers. Of course you may have those already. But the advice remains - never push your luck with a saint...
Heaven forbid the canonisation of either of the bodhran brothers officially sanctioned by the vatican or not.
I can just see it now; the banana bus pulling in at Sconser with goat bashing pilgrims;
" on your left is where saint santa and his beardie apprentice were martyred for their faith by the enraged minstrels of skye and lochalsh, driven by jealousy and envy that saint santa had been granted patronage by the lords of the cellar bar and other notable hostelries of these parishes. On the right is where saint santa's famed collection of skin beaters, out sized and famously loud holy bodhran were burnt in front of the faithful prior to the the saint being driven into the sea and being told to swim after the rassay ferry................................."
We could well do without that, the stuff of nightmares.
Santa and his mate took to hanging out down at saucy's, I think young brenda told them to GTF, from there to Plockie where a politer GTF was bestowed upon them. I don't get out much myself these days but I've heard nobody bitching about them for a while so perhaps, like the way of the gaelic harp, their likes will never be there again. TF and amen to that.
I'm a player of the early Irish harp (sometimes called the Gaelic harp), and an expert on the history, if I do say so myself.
A few comments:
1. Someone mentioned Bunting, who wrote about changing tastes as a factor in the decline of the harp. In combination with the loss of patronage mentioned by others, this was probably the single biggest factor in the decline of the early Irish harp (with wire strings.)
The Gaelic harp is a diatonic (vs. chromatic) instrument. It can't change keys in the middle of a tune, nor can it play the accidentals that were becoming popular as the Baroque era was dawning on the Continent and Italian music became all the rage, even in Ireland.
2. The instrument that competed with the harp, and eventually superseded it, was not the bagpipes. Harp and great pipes were, together, the lynchpins of Gaelic musical culture. There is evidence that the pibroch style was shared between them.
As the culture was declining, the fiddle emerged as a popular instrument. It was much cheaper and easier to play than pipes or harp, and it is chromatic.
3. Elizabeth I employed players of the Gaelic harp in her Chapel Royal. When she ordered the harpers to be hanged, it's because they had become itinerant in the wake of the destruction of the Gaelic culture, and the Queen suspected they were Catholic spies. Indeed, many travelling entertainers of the time were.
4. Many here have commented that the harp is quite popular again, but it must be said that most harpers today play the modern "neo-celtic" harp, which is a very different instrument from the early Gaelic harp. The neo-celtic harp has levers, which make it chromatic, and nylon or gut strings, instead of wire strings. Its playing technique is adapted from 18th-century pedal harp technique, and the instrument itself is a descendant of the Continental pedal harp, not the Gaelic harp.
The wire-strung harp is likely to remain a rarity, because instruments are generally much more expensive and hard to get than neo-celtic harps. The playing technique, which involves damping to "clean up" the ringing sound made by the wire strings, is also much more difficult than that of the neo-celtic harp. (I've played both at an advanced level.)
The modern revival of the Gaelic harp began in the 1960's with Ann Heymann (USA), Alan Stivell (Brittany), and Grainne Yeats (Ireland).
Simon Chadwick's www.earlygaelicharp.info is a gold mine of free information, representing the best scholarship on the instrument, and there's also an "emporium" on the site with excellent books, CDs, etc.
If you are in Scotland, visit the Edinburgh Harp Festival, which showcases all kinds of harps and harp music, running April 9-14!
I take it that the *musical* challenge to the Gaelic harp really kicked in with the development of European Classical music on many fronts during the course of the c17 - after the Tudor period.
I believe James I of England, as well as Elizabeth, liked harp music. His court had presumably fostered it in Scotland. I don't know whether their harpers would have played Gaelic harps, or new foreign evolutions. Gaelic harps seems quite possible.
"The neo-celtic harp has levers, which make it chromatic," Not to pick too many nits in this very informative exchange (um, barring maybe the fun with Santa!) but even with levers, these harps are not truly chromatic. You can change keys via levers, but you're still just changing keys. You can also play accidentals in a melody by using the levers, but you may have to go back to the original note later in the melody. Only the pedal, or cross-strung, or Welsh triple harps are truly chromatic, with full, unimpeded access to the whole 12 note western scale. The double-strung harp can be partially chromatic if one side has levers sharpened while the other side does not.
Well, not to nit pick the nit pick but: Pedal harps, like neo celtic harps, have only 8 strings per octave. They make their changes with pedals, but otherwise have the same situation as the neo-celtic harps (though having the ability to shift over two half steps does give more flexibility in choice of key). Neo-celtic harps can shift a single pitch while the pedal harps must shift all the octaves of any pitch. This can, in some circumstances, make the pedal harp less flexible.
The Welsh triple harps have complete access to the full chromatic scale as do some cross strung and double strung harps.
I have just noticed that Dick posed the same question on Mudcat, and started a discussion that ran to about the same number of postings with about the same number of irrelevant digressions:
Without EVER having the courtesy to inform anybody on either forum that he'd done it.
How many OTHER places did you ask the same question, Dick?
And can you give us one single solitary reason why we should bother answering any of your questions, given that somebody in a forum we've never heard of has already answered them for you, for all we know?
You just noticed Jack? like on the 26th of march!
Look if someone wants to start a discussion and debate here or anywhere else thats their business!
Forums are not just about answering questions they are an area for debate and the pooling of wits. What on earth are you on your high horse for. Its an interesting subject and we have been blessed with some informative discussion and asides.
Thank you and now back to your regular scheduled program.
the demise of the harp and possible reasons
the demise of the harp and possible reasons
After the Battle of Kinsale Elizabeth 1 ordered her military to hang the harpers and burn their instrument.
How instrumental was this in the decline of the Irish Harp, or did it just speed up the decline
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
it slowed for a while while they hung the uilleann pipers.
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Happy Easter. Go mbeannaí Dia anseo isteach!
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Err. Hmm ?
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by David50
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
"How INSTRUMENTAL was this in the demise of the Irish Harp"
Lol
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
"After the Battle of Kinsale Elizabeth 1 ordered her military to hang the harpers and burn their instrument."
The harp declined because they only had the one between them all.
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
In the preface to his 1840 edition of The Ancient Music of Ireland Bunting includes a letter, written to him from the secretary of one of the societies founded in an attempt to preserve the harp and its music. In the letter, dated 30th July 1839, John McAdam states "Our gentry in Ireland are too scarce, and too little national, to encourage itinerant harpers, as of old; besides, the taste and fashion of music no longer bears upon our national instrument: it had its day, but, like all other fashions, it must give way to novelty."
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by drinharp
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Amazing thing, I gather the old harp was carved out of a solid lump of wood [bog oak?] then the pressure of stringing it up,wire strings, would open the soundbox up .
Back to the Harp, Celtic society was under geat and sustained pressure and the Bards Pipers and Harpers were all singled out as targets for oppression as they were essential elements in maintaining the cointinuity of the social system.
Also , I gather, the Pipes( Piob Mhor) superseded the Harp, much to the Chagrin of the Harpers, due to these changing social circumstances and social order.
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
But aren't we fortunate when novelty gives way to tradition, and that harps are back!
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by khandro
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Perhaps it had two effects. The decline would have been obvious at the time, though decades later, not utterly devestating . After the executions I am imagine some lamentations were being played, somewhere, on harp.
"During the autumn and winter of the year 1602, Irish music was fashionable at the Court of Queen Elizabeth. Nay, more; the virgin Queen kept an Irish harper, Donal Buidhe, in order to sooth her nerves."
Irish Music in the Seventeenth Century 1601-1650
From A History of Irish Music by William H. Grattan Flood
http://www.libraryireland.com/IrishMusic/XVIII.php
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Thanks Random, Ive been looking to read 'Flood' but didnt realise it was online....
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I suppose Elizabeth's priority was to expel or kill the Irish leaders she saw as dangerous - and they would be principal patrons of the harpers. Itinerant harpers among the common people might then be looked upon as being curdlers of unwholesome nostalgia, influencing them to become malcontents and Enemies Of Progress.
The purge on harpers seems to have been (fortunately) not as ruthless or as thorough as Elizabeth or Cromwell might have wished - otherwise there would have been no Carolan, no convocation of Irish harpers right at the end of the c18. But a huge amount of older music and poetic repertoire must have been lost.
O'Neill's writings on the history of piping in Ireland suggest that a number of pipers were let off fairly lightly for the 'crime' of piping - meaning, playing the Highland Bagpipe equivalent, which it is not stretching things to describe as a weapon.
# Posted on March 28th 2010 by nicholas
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Wasn't it the Magners, the Skol, and latterally, the introduction of some the stronger continental lagers which led to the demise of the Harp?
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Rudall the time
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I remember contemporary reports "failure to stay sharp to the bottom of the glass", I'll post a reference if i can find it.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Mike Floorstand
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Patronage was the key to the survival of harping and bardic tradition generally in ireland & scotland. With the fall of gaelic influence at the courts of kings and queens and then lords and chiefs, so endeth the high gaelic arts.
The last patron commissioned harp music from scotland was composed in the western isles in south uist at the court of the MacNeil chiefs in the last quarter of the 18th century, to the best of my knowledge. After that harpers needed to find a day job.
There is a good description of it in the wiki link below, enjoy;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clàrsach
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
As far as Clarsach goes, I would be surprised if it has been stronger for centuries, if not ever, than it is now.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
"After the Battle of Kinsale Elizabeth 1 ordered her military to hang the harpers and burn their instrument. How instrumental was this in the decline of the Irish Harp, or did it just speed up the decline" Anon.
No, harpers disguised themselves as farm labourers in order to avoid hanging and hid their harps in the bogs. It was the advent of the radio followed by TV and later rap that nearly did it for the harp
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Steamwilkes
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Nicholas and Solidmahog are right in that the wider implication of the defeat of the Gaelic chieftains was the decline of the cultural system of patronage under which the itinerant harpers flourished. Larger cultural and economic processes tend to make the difference rather than dramatic and short-lived gestures, no matter how gruesome and extreme they may seem.
What makes you believe that Elizabeth's orders after Kinsale simply increased the speed of a decline bthat was already in existence?
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I'm not sure if there really is a historical connection or not, but I'm all for blaming the protestents for whatever you can hang on them!
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Well, after you kick the Gaelic gentry out of the island, it simply wouldn't do to have a bunch of their former employees roaming the countryside, plinking harps and prattling on in long poetic verse about how grand it all used to be, now would it?
A shrewd businesswoman, that one.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Yeah, the injection of some mindless sectarianism always improves an intellectual discussion no end...
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Point is bogman, it's not a continuous tradition in either ireland or scotland, rather a revival.
Unlike the pipes where much was preserved vocally and continued in scotland, later being reintroduced to the pipes when things cooled, the harp wasn't as fortunate. Although I did hear Barnaby Brown talking about some old pipe music canterach he'd decoded that also preserved some harp music which is now getting played over Strathpeffer way by a Clàrsach plucking mate of his.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
How about some mindful intellectualism?
(I think Nate was being facetious tho)
These events really were a watershed in Western European history, and the world at large.
The modern, centralised state proved superior when it comes to wars of conquest against a decentralised governmental system.
The gentry and the harpers were part of the same, decentralised system that the centralised one was destroying and overpowering.
With the harp and the music still here, it appears culture is superior to any governmental system, however. (ha ha ha)
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Don't know if I agree Solidmahog. There were so few players at any time until now anyway and there is little or no evidence that the playing actually completely died out.
I can't speak for Irish Harp but I don't think wikipedia gives a realistic explanation for the demise of the clarsach (for a relatively short time). I can't see how the patronage Gaelic Chieftains and Clan system had a major impact on the popularity of Clarsach. Certainly in this part of the world (Skye, Hebrides) the main Chieftains may employ one Clarsach player. Here in Dunvegan, probably the best known player in history, Rory Dall Morrison (the blind harper) was employed by the chief of MacLeod. But MacLeods probably controlled a third of all the land here so it's a bit rich to describe the loss of one harp player in an area this size as 'demise'.
The increase in popularity of pipes is also blamed, but the MacLeods employed the MacCrimmons for centuries before Rory Dall.
From what I can gather the Clarsach/Harp was not really widely played at all, being used mainly used to entertain and massage the egos of the most powerful clan chieftains. Nowadays I would bet there are 20 times the amount of Clarsach players in Skye than at the time of Rory Dall.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Much of this early harp music is lost, from both countries. There's the odd manuscript but most is gone. The style (pure harp drop) has certainly gone.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Wikipedia not giving a realistic explanation of something? Shocking.
If the main source of income for clarsach players was clan chieftains, then it's not too far-fetched to suggest that the decline in popularity for the clarsach was indeed related to the whole social restructuring that was happening in Scotland. If there was no money in playing clarsach for the Gaelic gentry for whatever reasons (they lost power.... they'd rather have a piper... they decided an expensive flat in Edinburgh and London was more worthwhile than a blind dude playing the harp... there's not a single explanation) and the harp didn't find a new niche, then it doesn't need legislation to cause it's decline. It becomes a self perpetuating thing -- if no one is making or teaching the harp, then there are less harpers. The Highland pipes, however, had other uses beyond entertaining the gentry, like the military. A band full of harp players marching over the hill wouldn't have the same effect. And would be awkward as feck.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I'm don't disagreeing with that TSS. What I'm saying is you can't have a 'decline in popularity' if there wasn't popularity in the first place. Who cares if a few dozen clarsach players were employed by bloodthirsty egotistical warlords who would kill their granny for a lump of rock.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Good post TSS, lol,
bogman, we're talking history here and I agree that clàrsach is likely far more popular than it ever was. Also access to harp playing was likely only possible for a small percentage of the population of the time.
Much like being a ship builder in say wood, not many around now but at one time there would have been many, just like any trade, supply and demand.
MacLeod no doubt had the best harper in the area of his influence, but his relatives and sub chiefs would have had theirs sounds also. As would the neighbours over in the house of Donald, So there would have been a few around.
Like all things in early times trades were demarcated and common folk wouldn't have had the chance to study under a great player, hence the hereditary families in service. Unlike now where music, despite cut backs in schools etc, is flourishing.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Cracking grammar by me there too.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Yes, I agree with you there Solidmahog. I would say there was never a demise, as such, as far as the general pubic is concerned, rather a growing of a basically new tradition.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Paul Dooley was instrumental in de-coding the Robert Ap Huw manuscript - notation for the harp in Wales 1623 - with tunes and reference with an Irish connection. He recorded a CD of the tunes some time ago. I believe he's working onsomething to do with this collection. The metre and sound of the tunes in this manuscript are beautiful yet foreign to how we have been trained to listen to 'Celtic' music in recent times as it has evolved since then.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by iwerzon
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Aye. I'd agree with both of you guys there. Maybe "popularity" was the wrong word.
Does anyone know if the numbers of harp players actually declined over a given period? Certainly the style of playing changed but we seem to be taking it for granted that less people played the instrument. Has this been documented in any way?
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I've a medieval music boffin at the end of the road in my village I must ask him sometime.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
There's some interesting info here by Simon Chadwick......
http://www.earlygaelicharp.info/
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Crickey, would he be impressed by being described as 'medievial' Solidmahod?
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
The daughter calls him santa so yes medievial aint that bad under the circumstances.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Santa!!!!!! Please don't tell me he has a white beard, plays the bodhran badly and ruins sessions??? We have one on Skye and my mate, who's a fiddler from Newcastle ,says they have an exact duplicate there too.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Hey! I know that guy in Newcastle.
I believe he's known as "Bad Santa."
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
BTW, I've never met the one on Skye. He still may yet be a figment of your imaginations.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
If he is then I need to see a doctor, and so do my pals.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Na bogman thats one of the dreaded bodhran brothers you speak of, he meets up with his pal and bothers us on the mainland also, until they were chased that is, our santa is grey at worst and doesn't bother anybody, the piper over the road tells me he knows his stuff, re olden days relevant sounds .
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
That Skye weather can get to you after a while.
Or maybe it is in fact the same guy as the Newcastle one and he has transcended the laws of physics and can be in two places at once.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Man, it's great to hear there are still good santas about! Santas' little helper has happily left the Island. How did you guys manage to get rid of the bearded one?
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Maybe one of the Santas in Newcastle or Skye is simply a Brocken spectre of the other. These are illusions projected across the void by singular weather conditions, of which both places manifest an ongoing plurality - though Skye is bound to have the edge here.
See if either one casts a shadow, or if you can see ships or cars passing through him.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by nicholas
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I'd like to see a car pass through his bodhran!
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bogman
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Silver Spear
Santa has not transcended the laws of physics. Quantum mechanics states quite clearly that an atom may be in two places at the same time; although, to be fair this is only at atomic level and is not manifested at macro level.
I'm going to lie down now
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
There is a dyslexic devil-worshipper frequents the local session, who reportedly sold his soul to santa.
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Mike Floorstand
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Geoff, you may get up now, have a mug of strong coffee, and read this article in the New Scientist: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18669-first-quantum-effects-seen-in-visible-object.html. It describes an experiment showing for the first time that quantum effects can seen in a visible object (specifically, in a superposition of two quantum states).
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Knowing bad santa well I should point out that his quantum state is usually full .............................................of guiness
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Perhaps the Santas of Skye and Newcastle *are*, in fact, a couple of saints. Or more to the point, one saint.
Some Saints in history are said to have been capable of bilocation - that is, being in two places at the same time. St. Paul and Padre Pio are examples. Their powers in this life presumably extend to the next, along with the possibility of re-visits to the earthly vale of tears for one reason or another.
So this guy may be a Saint of old, come to sojourn with you a while, see what you're up to, and report back to his Maker. If his looks and abilities aren't up to much - well, that's part of the disguise. If you treat him with kindness and hospitality, unforeseen blessings might come your way (such as not being in The Cumberland when it finally detaches itself from its cliff-top and crashes into the gorge), and if you treat him with harshness and arrogance he might depart with a colossal thunderclap, bestowing on you the plagues of Egypt including lice and piles like chandeliers. Of course you may have those already. But the advice remains - never push your luck with a saint...
# Posted on March 29th 2010 by nicholas
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Heaven forbid the canonisation of either of the bodhran brothers officially sanctioned by the vatican or not.
I can just see it now; the banana bus pulling in at Sconser with goat bashing pilgrims;
" on your left is where saint santa and his beardie apprentice were martyred for their faith by the enraged minstrels of skye and lochalsh, driven by jealousy and envy that saint santa had been granted patronage by the lords of the cellar bar and other notable hostelries of these parishes. On the right is where saint santa's famed collection of skin beaters, out sized and famously loud holy bodhran were burnt in front of the faithful prior to the the saint being driven into the sea and being told to swim after the rassay ferry................................."
We could well do without that, the stuff of nightmares.
Santa and his mate took to hanging out down at saucy's, I think young brenda told them to GTF, from there to Plockie where a politer GTF was bestowed upon them. I don't get out much myself these days but I've heard nobody bitching about them for a while so perhaps, like the way of the gaelic harp, their likes will never be there again. TF and amen to that.
# Posted on March 30th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I'm a player of the early Irish harp (sometimes called the Gaelic harp), and an expert on the history, if I do say so myself.
A few comments:
1. Someone mentioned Bunting, who wrote about changing tastes as a factor in the decline of the harp. In combination with the loss of patronage mentioned by others, this was probably the single biggest factor in the decline of the early Irish harp (with wire strings.)
The Gaelic harp is a diatonic (vs. chromatic) instrument. It can't change keys in the middle of a tune, nor can it play the accidentals that were becoming popular as the Baroque era was dawning on the Continent and Italian music became all the rage, even in Ireland.
2. The instrument that competed with the harp, and eventually superseded it, was not the bagpipes. Harp and great pipes were, together, the lynchpins of Gaelic musical culture. There is evidence that the pibroch style was shared between them.
As the culture was declining, the fiddle emerged as a popular instrument. It was much cheaper and easier to play than pipes or harp, and it is chromatic.
3. Elizabeth I employed players of the Gaelic harp in her Chapel Royal. When she ordered the harpers to be hanged, it's because they had become itinerant in the wake of the destruction of the Gaelic culture, and the Queen suspected they were Catholic spies. Indeed, many travelling entertainers of the time were.
4. Many here have commented that the harp is quite popular again, but it must be said that most harpers today play the modern "neo-celtic" harp, which is a very different instrument from the early Gaelic harp. The neo-celtic harp has levers, which make it chromatic, and nylon or gut strings, instead of wire strings. Its playing technique is adapted from 18th-century pedal harp technique, and the instrument itself is a descendant of the Continental pedal harp, not the Gaelic harp.
The wire-strung harp is likely to remain a rarity, because instruments are generally much more expensive and hard to get than neo-celtic harps. The playing technique, which involves damping to "clean up" the ringing sound made by the wire strings, is also much more difficult than that of the neo-celtic harp. (I've played both at an advanced level.)
The modern revival of the Gaelic harp began in the 1960's with Ann Heymann (USA), Alan Stivell (Brittany), and Grainne Yeats (Ireland).
Simon Chadwick's www.earlygaelicharp.info is a gold mine of free information, representing the best scholarship on the instrument, and there's also an "emporium" on the site with excellent books, CDs, etc.
If you are in Scotland, visit the Edinburgh Harp Festival, which showcases all kinds of harps and harp music, running April 9-14!
# Posted on March 30th 2010 by gaelharp
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
gaelharp, many thanks for the superb post.
# Posted on March 30th 2010 by Solidmahog
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I take it that the *musical* challenge to the Gaelic harp really kicked in with the development of European Classical music on many fronts during the course of the c17 - after the Tudor period.
I believe James I of England, as well as Elizabeth, liked harp music. His court had presumably fostered it in Scotland. I don't know whether their harpers would have played Gaelic harps, or new foreign evolutions. Gaelic harps seems quite possible.
# Posted on March 30th 2010 by nicholas
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
"The neo-celtic harp has levers, which make it chromatic," Not to pick too many nits in this very informative exchange (um, barring maybe the fun with Santa!) but even with levers, these harps are not truly chromatic. You can change keys via levers, but you're still just changing keys. You can also play accidentals in a melody by using the levers, but you may have to go back to the original note later in the melody. Only the pedal, or cross-strung, or Welsh triple harps are truly chromatic, with full, unimpeded access to the whole 12 note western scale. The double-strung harp can be partially chromatic if one side has levers sharpened while the other side does not.
# Posted on April 4th 2010 by khandro
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Well, not to nit pick the nit pick but: Pedal harps, like neo celtic harps, have only 8 strings per octave. They make their changes with pedals, but otherwise have the same situation as the neo-celtic harps (though having the ability to shift over two half steps does give more flexibility in choice of key). Neo-celtic harps can shift a single pitch while the pedal harps must shift all the octaves of any pitch. This can, in some circumstances, make the pedal harp less flexible.
The Welsh triple harps have complete access to the full chromatic scale as do some cross strung and double strung harps.
# Posted on April 4th 2010 by cboody
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
OK gaelharp: Is that you Ann H.?? ;)
# Posted on April 4th 2010 by cboody
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
I have just noticed that Dick posed the same question on Mudcat, and started a discussion that ran to about the same number of postings with about the same number of irrelevant digressions:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=128343&messages=46
Without EVER having the courtesy to inform anybody on either forum that he'd done it.
How many OTHER places did you ask the same question, Dick?
And can you give us one single solitary reason why we should bother answering any of your questions, given that somebody in a forum we've never heard of has already answered them for you, for all we know?
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
You just noticed Jack? like on the 26th of march!
Look if someone wants to start a discussion and debate here or anywhere else thats their business!
Forums are not just about answering questions they are an area for debate and the pooling of wits. What on earth are you on your high horse for. Its an interesting subject and we have been blessed with some informative discussion and asides.
Thank you and now back to your regular scheduled program.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
Thanks for the link though Jack, interesting reading.
# Posted on April 6th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: the demise of the harp and possible reasons
@cboody: No, not Ann Heymann, but extremely tickled that you might have mistaken me for her. I live in Minnesota and am one of her students.
# Posted on July 20th 2010 by gaelharp