Actually, aside from my terrible stab at humor, I'm curious about something. I understand that there are regional differences that can be quite extensive, such as between what is spoken in Donegal as opposed to the Aran Islands. Is the difference so much that one would struggle to understand the other?
What id like to know is that if the irish language was not originally written using the english alphabet and was just phonetically transferred to it, why then don't we just write Teampall An Ghleanntáin as Teampill on Glen tawn?
The "English" alphabet? It was developed by ancient Semetic peoples living near Egypt ages ago. The various languages of today share the symbols but not the pronunciation or even the same amount of symbols.
"The "English" alphabet? It was developed by ancient Semetic peoples living near Egypt ages ago."
Well... The symbols those ancient Semites (Phoenecians?) were using back then didn't look much like the modern "English" Alphabet. But this "English" alphabet is basically the Latin alphabet, with a few minor alterations - as are the Irish, Spanish, Dutch, Finnish, Lithuanian, Czech etc. alphabets - and was developed by the Romans, long before *English*, or even Anglo-Saxon, came on the scene.
For the record, Irish began to be written using the Latin alphabet with the introduction of Christianity, in the 5th Century AD. Anglo-Saxon did not begin to use it until the 7th Century.
The problem with Irish, as with most languages, is that the alphabet doesn't match up with the number of sounds it is intended to represent. In the case of Irish there are only 18 letters to cope with over 40 sounds, hence the proliferation of combinations such as mh, bh, dh. It wasn't quite so bad in the old days because, for example, the script they used would place a dot over an "m" to indicate the phonetic usage we now indicate by "mh". Incidentally, the traditional Irish script (rather beautiful, I think), which used the dot system and which you don't see much of nowadays, was based on the quill script of a mediaeval Irish monk.
Representing Irish phonetically isn't such a good idea in view of the various marked changes in pronunciation throughout the Island. Written communication would become next to impossible. A good example is given earlier in this discussion: "Teampall An Ghleanntáin" could be written phonetically as "Teampill on Glen tawn" or as "chim- pil a' h-lan-town", depending where the speaker comes from.
As an aside, if an Englishman can get his mouth round Dutch/Flemish words such as "verschrikkelijk" (meaning "terrible") he won't have much difficulty with learning the pronunciation of Irish or Welsh!
Markplucker, Unfortunately, discussion boards on the internet seem to bring out the worst in people. When it gets ugly, just move on past, there is a lot of good info, and good fun available here also!
(But no nasty words, as you found out, they get replaced with a less offensive, but sometimes wildly inappropriate word, by some rigid computer program.)
There's the story of the Englishman from a very well-to-do and morally upright family who married a pretty young French girl. The couple returned from the honeymoon to his parents' home and the new daughter-law was asked by her new in-laws how she enjoyed the holiday. She replied in heavily accented English "Oh, I was so filled with 'appiness!"
For those who would pronounce it I’d suggest (using North of England phonetics)
Bail ó Dhia oraibh
Boll (as in ‘cotton’) o (as in owe money) year (as in Happy New Year) uh-reeve
This might be said differently in various parts of Ireland, but most would understand it as a very warm welcome.
Mark, I find your comments interesting.
Now I don’t quite know if your comment Markplucker was altered/edited to make it acceptable to this site; is that what you intimated? If so, I didn’t know that this happened, but |I would say if it did, at least your feelings were conveyed and other members/visitors to this site would be aware of your sentiments.
There is a beauty and honesty, and some wicked humour, in some of some of these threads which allows all sorts of progression, and digression, which runs run into some dozens of responses of thoughtful and quite often erudite postings.
I have practised, and taught, Calligraphy for many years, my favourite alphabet being “The Irish Half Uncial” (Majescule and Minescule) as alluded to by CMO and Lazyhound.
The Book of Kells is probably one of the most important manuscripts in this hand and shows the creative genius of the scribes using their own mixture of secular and spiritual expression. Some of the illuminations of letters suggest quite earthy material which one would not expect in a modern prayer book.
I hope this opens up your view to responses here and hope you find this in a generous spirit.
I agree some threads here can take a sharp negative turn, maybe for you this is one of those times where you fel it is some form of contest. So be it!
For me, yes, it was lovely to have some positive input about phonetics.
And maybe you’d like to know that when you pronounce the letters of The Irish Alphabet, like a child learns to say ABC, then the letter itself is the name of a tree.
Maybe lots of people know that already and I’m sorry if it repeats an earlier thread. I just find it such a beautiful connection between a people and their Earth.
I should have explained that first there was the “ogham” alphabet which consisted of a sequence of lines/marks on the edge of a stone or stick. These were all tree names. It is also known as “beith-luis.nuin” which is the equivalent as I mentioned earlier of being ABC.
Originally there were twenty symbols, but the modern Irish Alphabet consists of eighteen letters apart from, like other languages, borrowed letters.
Given that the symbols are in groups of five, there is some conjecture that “ogham” was indeed a very early form of signing, that the letters groups were indicated by pointing in different ways to a certain digit.
Given that it’s early here, and might be late where you might read this, I hope it’s not too confusing.
By the way this time tomorrow I’ll be in full flight playing tunes for St. Patrick’s Day! Less than a day now….
Quick Irish pronunciation
Quick Irish pronunciation
I am trying to figure out how to pronounce "Teampall An Ghleanntáin". My mostly un-educated guess would be something like
"Temple Lawn-chin" or "Temple Glawn-chin"
But I could be way the heck off here... help!
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Teampill on Glen tawn
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by glengarslasher
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
As a Northener,I would pronounce that:
chim- pil a' h-lan-town
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by sligeach
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Quick Irish pronunciation? Is that just saying a phrase in Irish really fast?
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Thanks!
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Actually, aside from my terrible stab at humor, I'm curious about something. I understand that there are regional differences that can be quite extensive, such as between what is spoken in Donegal as opposed to the Aran Islands. Is the difference so much that one would struggle to understand the other?
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
What id like to know is that if the irish language was not originally written using the english alphabet and was just phonetically transferred to it, why then don't we just write Teampall An Ghleanntáin as Teampill on Glen tawn?
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
The "English" alphabet? It was developed by ancient Semetic peoples living near Egypt ages ago. The various languages of today share the symbols but not the pronunciation or even the same amount of symbols.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Merry Highlander
Are you for real!
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by sligeach
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Oh, and out of interest, it's a cracking tune ...
[I've heard the last syllable said "toin", but I'm not an expert]
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
"The "English" alphabet? It was developed by ancient Semetic peoples living near Egypt ages ago."
Well... The symbols those ancient Semites (Phoenecians?) were using back then didn't look much like the modern "English" Alphabet. But this "English" alphabet is basically the Latin alphabet, with a few minor alterations - as are the Irish, Spanish, Dutch, Finnish, Lithuanian, Czech etc. alphabets - and was developed by the Romans, long before *English*, or even Anglo-Saxon, came on the scene.
For the record, Irish began to be written using the Latin alphabet with the introduction of Christianity, in the 5th Century AD. Anglo-Saxon did not begin to use it until the 7th Century.
...I'm from England, by the way.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
..........And the 5th Century AD?
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
The problem with Irish, as with most languages, is that the alphabet doesn't match up with the number of sounds it is intended to represent. In the case of Irish there are only 18 letters to cope with over 40 sounds, hence the proliferation of combinations such as mh, bh, dh. It wasn't quite so bad in the old days because, for example, the script they used would place a dot over an "m" to indicate the phonetic usage we now indicate by "mh". Incidentally, the traditional Irish script (rather beautiful, I think), which used the dot system and which you don't see much of nowadays, was based on the quill script of a mediaeval Irish monk.
Representing Irish phonetically isn't such a good idea in view of the various marked changes in pronunciation throughout the Island. Written communication would become next to impossible. A good example is given earlier in this discussion: "Teampall An Ghleanntáin" could be written phonetically as "Teampill on Glen tawn" or as "chim- pil a' h-lan-town", depending where the speaker comes from.
As an aside, if an Englishman can get his mouth round Dutch/Flemish words such as "verschrikkelijk" (meaning "terrible") he won't have much difficulty with learning the pronunciation of Irish or Welsh!
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Why does everything in this discussion turn into a p*ssing contest?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Markplucker
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
I'm sure I wrote "p*ssing" - what's going on?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Markplucker
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Ah, I get it. It's OK to be really nasty but you must watch your language.
Surely if somebody finds a word offensive then they'll still find it offensive with asterisks.
Glad I don't live in Seejithorpe or Penistone.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Markplucker
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
That's S*unthorpe. Or Sc*nthorpe. Or Scu*thorpe. Or Scun*horpe. But definitely not Seejithorpe.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Markplucker
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Didn't Margaret Th****er come from near there?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by eiluned
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Markplucker, Unfortunately, discussion boards on the internet seem to bring out the worst in people. When it gets ugly, just move on past, there is a lot of good info, and good fun available here also!
(But no nasty words, as you found out, they get replaced with a less offensive, but sometimes wildly inappropriate word, by some rigid computer program.)
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
I live quite near a village called Penisarwaun and find that it's all a matter of emphasis.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by eiluned
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
There's the story of the Englishman from a very well-to-do and morally upright family who married a pretty young French girl. The couple returned from the honeymoon to his parents' home and the new daughter-law was asked by her new in-laws how she enjoyed the holiday. She replied in heavily accented English "Oh, I was so filled with 'appiness!"
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Bail ó Dhia oraibh! Greetings all!
For those who would pronounce it I’d suggest (using North of England phonetics)
Bail ó Dhia oraibh
Boll (as in ‘cotton’) o (as in owe money) year (as in Happy New Year) uh-reeve
This might be said differently in various parts of Ireland, but most would understand it as a very warm welcome.
Mark, I find your comments interesting.
Now I don’t quite know if your comment Markplucker was altered/edited to make it acceptable to this site; is that what you intimated? If so, I didn’t know that this happened, but |I would say if it did, at least your feelings were conveyed and other members/visitors to this site would be aware of your sentiments.
There is a beauty and honesty, and some wicked humour, in some of some of these threads which allows all sorts of progression, and digression, which runs run into some dozens of responses of thoughtful and quite often erudite postings.
I have practised, and taught, Calligraphy for many years, my favourite alphabet being “The Irish Half Uncial” (Majescule and Minescule) as alluded to by CMO and Lazyhound.
The Book of Kells is probably one of the most important manuscripts in this hand and shows the creative genius of the scribes using their own mixture of secular and spiritual expression. Some of the illuminations of letters suggest quite earthy material which one would not expect in a modern prayer book.
I hope this opens up your view to responses here and hope you find this in a generous spirit.
I agree some threads here can take a sharp negative turn, maybe for you this is one of those times where you fel it is some form of contest. So be it!
For me, yes, it was lovely to have some positive input about phonetics.
And maybe you’d like to know that when you pronounce the letters of The Irish Alphabet, like a child learns to say ABC, then the letter itself is the name of a tree.
Maybe lots of people know that already and I’m sorry if it repeats an earlier thread. I just find it such a beautiful connection between a people and their Earth.
Best to all
Brian xx
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
Forgive me!
I should have explained that first there was the “ogham” alphabet which consisted of a sequence of lines/marks on the edge of a stone or stick. These were all tree names. It is also known as “beith-luis.nuin” which is the equivalent as I mentioned earlier of being ABC.
Originally there were twenty symbols, but the modern Irish Alphabet consists of eighteen letters apart from, like other languages, borrowed letters.
Given that the symbols are in groups of five, there is some conjecture that “ogham” was indeed a very early form of signing, that the letters groups were indicated by pointing in different ways to a certain digit.
Given that it’s early here, and might be late where you might read this, I hope it’s not too confusing.
By the way this time tomorrow I’ll be in full flight playing tunes for St. Patrick’s Day! Less than a day now….
Brian xx
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: Quick Irish pronunciation
hmm i thought it was a valid question... now im more confused.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by The Merry Highlander