I've been puzzling over a little bit of something. But let me start out with saying this may be a bit of touchy topic, I"m just looking for ideas and how things work, without intending or meaning anything negative.
That said, I was listening to some Sliabh Luachra/Kerry polkas (specifically Johnny O'Leary, Denis Murphy, and Dennis Doody) and was noticing how the polka swing feel (played with fiddle, accordion, and/or penny whistle) is very different from most modern bands who use sound equipment, guitars, and drums. So I was wondering, if these modern equipment or instruments or just the instruments which are different have any effect on the polka swing sort of sound. Like, is this particular swingy sound harder to get or hear from guitars or drums, or the like, or do these instruments limit the swingy sound that comes out? Or, is it that many of bands nowadays just do not have that swing in their playing?
Again, I'm not saying this tendency is bad, just different, and just wondering if anyone has any ideas as to why there is a difference, and whether the difference is how the tunes are played or the particular instruments that are used.
My knee-jerk first response is to blame the accompanists, not the sound system, but there, yes, that too.
Accompanists take their art, too often, for granted, and that will get in the way of a decent balance, one based on understanding the form. If any form is taken repeatedly for granted as 'easy', it is polkas, and a lot of cr*p playing results. Worse, are the accompanists, bangers, whether percussion or banging out chord progressions, if they have that much knowledge of such.
Don't get me wrong, I love a decent accompanist, but I'm not sure such are in the majority or in the ascendance?
Sound systems, they too get badly used, and a hall and poor planning can mean that things get swallowed up in the constantly expanding and crossing sound bouncing off of surfaces. There are so many variables, including the equipment being used and how it is set up and the environment and whether or not the balance between venue and kit is made in a reasonable way. Reverb dulls rhythm, muddies the music.
And then there's the problem of 'more'. 1, 2 and 3 musicians is great, and fairly manageable and able to find agreement, so tney cary a similar message melody wise and rhythm wise, but the more the numbers grow, like reverberating signals bouncing off of hard surfaces, the greater the potential for a muddy sound ~ one potentially out of agreement on a number of points ~ tuning, rhythm, melody, style... That doesn't mean it still can't be fun and great kick, but it won't be as 'clean' and under the sking as a tight set by a few. But it can still be great craic.
I don't think I've ever heard good strumming to the Sliabh Luachra style of polkas. The more in your face up tempo ones yes, Donal Lunny is particularly good at strumming to those. But there is a certain rhythm to the old style of playing them that just doesn't lend itself to strumming. It's the same with the Sliabh Luachra slides. Strummers do two things, they iron out the detail and fill in the gaps.
Maybe some of the difference is with the pulse. I studied with Matt Cranitch, a Sliabh Luachra officianado, and there is a pulse with polkas, and I think that subtlety is missed by many who play them more like a reel. When I say pulse, the emphasis is on beats 2 and 4. I was taught this by another fiddler who did most polkas with two slurred notes each measure, but you leaned into the second slurred note each time.
It really changes the dynamics of the tune. In settings of 1-3 players, it's probably easily detected. In a power band, I'm sure it's lost.
I don't think it's the accompaniment, though it's often the first to nudge a well played polka out of the 2 and 4 and into the 1 and 3. I think even a lot of melody players don't have the appreciation or the exposure to the proper swing.
Like Mr. C says, they're seen as easy, people whip them out and bash them about like it's Oktoberfest, and there you have it. Sad.
There is a difference between those instruments with a sustained note, eg fiddle and flute, and those with transient notes, like piano, guitar banjo. What I mean is if you listen to someone bowing or blowing in a polka, there is an emphasis on the off beat, done by increasing pressure or speed of bow or breath which is impossible on other instruments. The 'pulse' mentioned by Patkiwi.
No frets is correct,I recently heard KILFENORA CEIL BAND live their reels were excellent ,but they were clearly unused to polkas and slides.,mainly the drummers fault.
llig, its to do with putting an emphasis on the offbeat, [still I am not surprised at your reply],a good guitarist who is acquainted with the style can do it, listen toPaul deGrae
it is to do with listening and getting the pulse right
West Limerick musicians would have it quite differently to Sliabh Luachra musicians and on again to west Kerry. There's no "one" correct rhythm, what I don't understand is that from NZ to Canada polkas are played so badly. It's not like there's any shortage of available archive recordings, there's tons of stuff on youtube now but nobody seems to want to understand that there's a backbeat that defines the tune making a relatively simple series of notes an incredibly complex whole.
You can hear the pulse that is talked about above (you can actually see it if you watch Cranitch's bow) and the guitar doesn't overpower it. Sometimes guitars overemphasize the off-beat so that whatever pulse the melody players are creating is lost.
I think it's up to the melody instrument/s in the band to take the lead and for the drummer and other members to follow that lead. In my personal experience, a drummer can play a strict polka beat or they can just do some accenting here and there and let the fiddle (or accordian, etc.) do the bulk of the work. Both methods work... I agree that it is most likely the skill level of the players themselves, or a crappy PA system or mic system that doesn't allow for the natural tones and sounds (as natural as they can get, anyhow) of the instruments.
AlBrown < The future just ain't what it used to be...>
Has answered most of your Question -- Young one's now,, Dont
Play to the Old Irish Traditional Rhythm's. They dont run the Phrases
now.They Cut Notes Short alot. And use a lot of Musical Syncopation...
And as fast as hell to a single heavy Beat...
If yOU Listen To-
PADDY CANNY AND CHARLIE LENNON - You will see/hear what I mean...
Matt Cranitch once told me that when it came to polkas then Steve Cooney was the man in terms of guitar accompaniment. I'd go along with that, but also plug Jim Murray and Tommy O'Sullivan.
However, Matt was talking about Sliabh Luachra polkas which are substantially different from Clare polkas (a point which anon clearly does not appreciate). Here's the Kilfenora CB playing 'Tierney's Polkas' - http://bit.ly/cxjx2q - in the much more sedate fashion of the county. The band's drummer sounds perfectly au fait to me.
I'm glad some decent accompaniment is being given... When it is good it's a kick, when it blends and doesn't get in the way.
I also love the Clare way with polkas, as well as how they can be taken in the far north, Ulster way, lovely stuff. The variety is part of the joy of this music, but enirehtac's point was specific to Sliabh Luachra.
Its amazing how someone with a sense for polkas and slides can make them sound really nice. Sadly those folks are few and far between I will at this point include my self in the larger group- with the qualification that I am working my way through learning the style and am not quite there yet.
The problem is that there is a basic simplicity to both polkas and slides that make them prone to abuse by rocket fast players who all through the, or approach the rythym as (from my Polish polka previous existence) oomPa oomPa until someone changes the tune and the key. They become very monotonous.
And Johnny O'leary made them sound so effortless.
I have the additional cross to bear. When My Polish Mother hears Irish polkas....She say's 'You call that a Polka!?!?!? No clarinet, trumpet bid drum doing the big STOMP". Then she pulls out my late father's L'l Wally collection
Thanks for that link to the Kilfenora Ceili Band, Floss the Teathers, and for making the really good point that Sliabh Luachara polkas are different from Clare polkas, from W. Limerick, from etc.....
there is an irony here. I dance the "Polish Polka" pretty well. Over the years, at Polish weddings, my Irish red headed Herself has chosen increasingly to sit them out. My Polish mother had a hip replaced, so she doesn't participate in the "Polish Stomp".
But Herself's mother....has always been a willing partner.
I coped with the challenge of accompanying polkas by learning the melodies of all that are played around here, and thus I avoided the issue altogether!
Cool stuff! I love the thing about guitars ironing out the details - priceless. Lots of wonderful ideas, and good perspective. Thanks so much for all the links.
>No frets is correct,I recently heard KILFENORA CEIL BAND >live their reels were excellent ,but they were clearly unused to >polkas and slides.,mainly the drummers fault.
Ah the internet, eh?
That place where you can read someone rejoicing in the name "anon" expect to be taken sriously when they declaim about the *KILFENORA CEILI BAND* not knowing their polkas and slides.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I can only recommend that like myself, you always take advice from the anons of this world seriouisly when they point out the misunderstandings of ceili bands that have 100 years playing behind them.
you were not there on the night.
the band leader ;made the following announcement,we have a cd for sale but I dont expect youll be buying it after the way we played the last set of polkas.
the dancers were clearly used to sliabh luchra polkas and slides.
the clip that Floss provided of the kilfenoras playing the english tune la russe has no relevance,this was not the tune I was referring to or the set.
What relevance is my moniker?
because a band has a100 years of playing behind them ,it does not follow that they can be expected to play conversantly in diferent styles.
I would expect them to be able to play well in the style of their region which they did, their reels were excellent,
in the same way I would not automatically expect a sliabh luchra player to be conversant with donegal highlands,or a donegal player to play slides or polkas for dancing.
so,as the dance in question was in Bantry[not far from sliabh luchra],the dancers were clearly expecting sliabh luchra polkas and slides[hardly surprising].
I understand that the kilfenora band have a changeable line up,it was however a very enjoyable night,and I would like to thank the kilfenoras for a great music evening.
Anon has clearly forgotten his original post: 'I recently heard KILFENORA CEIL BAND live their reels were excellent ,but they were clearly unused to polkas and slides.,mainly the drummers fault.'
I was merely pointing out that the KCB is used to playing the Clare version of the polka and the reason I linked to the clip was to provide evidence of how well they do so.
In all probability, the band was trying to please the dancers down in Bantry and made the mistake of playing a set of Sliabh Luachra polkas with which it was not entirely familiar.
Fair enough, but shouldn't whoever booked them for the event have been more astute and provided prior warning?
Anon also writes: 'in the same way I would not automatically expect a sliabh luchra player to be conversant with donegal highlands,or a donegal player to play slides or polkas for dancing'
Virtually every Donegal fiddler I know has several polkas in his or her repertoire, but the way they play them is attuned to the local dancers. Tommy Peoples, of course, has a much broader experience.
Geoff Wallis says;Fair enough, but shouldn't whoever booked them for the event have been more astute and provided prior warning?
fair enough comment.
however regardless of what you might say Sliabh Luchra is the home of irish polkas not Donegal, Clare ulster or anywhere else in the same way Donegal is the home of highlands,and nobody would argue that they play them[highlands] better in sliabh luchra than they do in Donegal,the same applies to polkas,Sliabh Luchra is the defining style for plokas and slides.
your clip is interesting ,the english tune la russe, which is normally used for a particular pattern dance.
Sliabh Luchra is highly regarded as a home of polkas and slides, but these forms are played in every county and abroad, and there is no single "defining" or definitive style for playing them. Just as with reels and hornpipes, polkas and slides are played according to local taste and custom, which varies from place to place.
Sure, some people prefer the Sliabh Luchra style, but that's all it is, a preference.
I disagree with you there, would you say the same thing about Highlands,Highlands survived exclusively in Donegal,in my opinion,and it seemed to be the opinion of Johnny O Leary,and John and Julia Clifford,[two people Iknew and discused it with]that slides and polkas were the music of sliabh luchra.so we must agree to disagree.
to be able to dance well to the music is a priority.watching the dancers they werent doing that well with the slides and a lesser extent the polkas,the reels were very good.
I've come the road from (early on) regarding slides and polkas as brain death to (now) realising that they're marvellous and surprisingly difficult to play well. Part of the reason is that often enough in English sessions and ceilidhs the slides are just played like other 6/8 jigs and the polkas like, say, Northumbrian 2/4s, making them fairly (or very) stodgy and tedious. There's no real equivalent in English trad rhythms, as far as I know, to Kerry polkas and slides, especially when the speed of these is seriously tweaked up.
I'd change 'the culture' regarding these in sessions, if I wasn't so old and lazy / could remember which polka / slide was which...!
Sorry, but highlands aren't exclusive to Donegal. We play them even here in Montana.
The point is, the tunes traveled around Ireland just as they now travel around the world, and people develop local customs for playing them. There is no such thing as a defining style. Polkas and slides may be a significant portion of the Sliabh Luchra repertoire, and there may be a Sliabh Luchra manner of playing them, but that doesn't make it the defining way of playing these forms across the island any more than the Sligo style is the only or best way to play reels.
The bad rap polkas get is that too many people play them the way they played the first one they learned, back when they got their first brand new tin whistle. Slow and march-like, rather than quick and nimble.
I would say that a highland played at elevations near 5,000 feet is indeed " high land" music!
And because polkas don't have as many notes in them as do reels and jigs they're seen as an obvious choice to teach beginners. It should be the other way round - no polkas (or slides) until you're really up to speed and rhythmically fluent in reels and jigs. Unfortunately, my clock doesn't run backwards
Not much new here, but perhaps some reinforcement:
The Polka is a dance. It exists in lots of countries. It is played very differently in different countries, and in fact the tunes are quite different in melodic shape in various places. I suppose one might agrue that Sliabh Luchra style of playing is a basic style for polkas in Ireland, though I'm in no position to jusge whether that is a valid statement. What I can say is There isn't much in common between the Irish polkas I know and play and the Scandinavian and German Polkas that are common where I live.
Yes polkas can be less technically difficult to play that (some) jigs and reels, but there is no reason they shouldn't be a starting point for learning the repertoire...as long as one is learning by listening to good players of the repertoire.
my advice is to listen to good sliabh luchra players playing polkas and slides.JuliaClifford,JackieDaly, and guitarists such asPaul de Grae
personally, I do not care much for Highlands,I prefer Strathspeys,in my opinion they are on occasions inferior versions of the same tune,but each to their own.
Silly. "Sliabh Luchra is the defining style for polkas and slides."
It's certainly a really good way to play them, but the use of the word "defining" is silly.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by llig leahcim
so why do people choose sliabh luchra players such as DenisMurphy,Julia Clifford JohnnyO Leary,Jackie Dalywhen they learn slides and polkas,rather than Clare players like BobbyCasey or Donegal players like Tommy Peoples,because the sliabh luchra style of playing is definitive,
cboody, the polkas in Scandanavia and Germany have nothing to do with Irish polkas, all they share is the name. They are related to Scottish 2/4 dance tunes.
Anon, the assertion that the Kilfenora Ceili Band cannot play polkas in a Sliabh Luchra style because they're not from there is hilarious. As some of the most experienced players in Ireland do you not think they have heard of, and can imitate the playing of Clifford, the O' Connors, O' Leary's etc? If they couldn't then sympathies to the legions of players who's never been to Ireland far less Cork and Kerry. I love polkas and am perfectly confident of doing a very close impression of a Sliabh Luchra polka without having ever been there. If they had a problem on the night in question then maybe the tried a request they didn't really know or just had a wee moment. Sorry, nothing could persuade me they were incapable because they're not from the right area. That's just stupid.
I mean it is what nearly all players listen to when they want to hear slides and polkas,the acclaimed players of slides and polkas are Julia Clifford,DenisMurphy,Johnny O Leary,JackieDaly,Paddy Cronin.
DONEGAL STYLE players such as Johnny Docherty are sensible listening for highlands,and heis acclaimed for playing in a donegal style ,I dont think I ever heard Johnny Docherty play polkas .
did I say it was because they were not from the right area?
no , I think it is more likely that the line up on that night was not that familiar with sliabh luchra style polas and slides,
I understand they have a changeable line up,I would imagine that when Tim Collins plays with them,that their sound would be different again.
I am talking about one occasion with a particular line up.the other unusual thing that hapened on this night was that when requested to do haymakers jig or the occasional pattern dances we were given seige of ennis twice
Maybe you should send them some recordings. Bit embarrassing to be playing in one of Irelands top dance bands and not be aware of the Sliabh Luchra style of polka.
on ths subject of the Seige of Ennis,the original tune which is rather similiar to salmon tails up the water,is in 2/4time.this dance which has side step is [imo]much better either as areel or a polka,when it comes to doing the sidesteps than jigstry it out and you will see
Bogman,I would imagine it is because majority of the time the clare sets require reels rather than polkas, for example the clare plain set is reels and jigs
the kilfenoras played great music their reels and jigs were very good.
John Doherty certainly knew some polkas, though the only recorded evidence I'm aware of (please correct me if I'm wrong) is 'The Dark Girl Dressed in Blue' which appears on the Saydisc CD 'Traditional Dance Music of Ireland' as well as the Folktrax cassette 'The Pedlar's Pack'.
yes, but were highlands played in sliabh luchra?
I dont mean now in this time of mass communication,but when regional styles were more definite
one polka,whereas the sliabh luchra musicians played hundreds,I doubt if there are many highlands recorded by the older traditional sliabh luchra musicians[o keefe murphy, clifford, tom billy] either.
your argument just doesnt stand up
I'm merely pointing out that John Doherty knew at least one polka. You claimed that you had never heard him play one. I'm merely letting you know about the existence of a recording on which he does play a polka. And there are plenty of other examples of Donegal musicians who've recorded polkas.
'Regional styles' is not a term I prefer. I'd rather go for 'local styles' which share some congruity within a larger area. There's a noticeable difference, for instance, between the fiddle-playing of musicians from Inishowen and those of Glencolmcille.
And, for heaven's sake, 1) it's SLIABH LUACHRA, and 2) 'Sliabh Luchra is the home of irish polkas not Donegal, Clare ulster' - Donegal is part of Ulster.
you may quibble over spelling,but the fact of the matter is that if people want to listen to polkas and slides played well ,they invariably direct their attention to the players I mentioned ,who come from slaibh luachra
sliabh Luachra (Irish pronunciation: [ʃlʲiəvˠ ˈl̪ˠuəxɾˠə]) is a region in Munster, Ireland, located around the River Blackwater, on the County Cork/County Kerry/County Limerick borderland.
This region has a UNIQUE musical style which makes heavy use of the polka and the slide. Indeed, most of the polkas and slides in Irish traditional music derive from this region. Musicians from the area include Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford, Paddy Cronin, Padraig O'Keeffe, Johnny O'Leary, Jackie Daly, Con Curtin and Donal Murphy .
Two of Kerry's best known Gaelic poets, Aogán Ó Rathaille and Eoghan Rua Ó Súilleabháin, are also from the area.
Opinions differ as to the exact location and extent of Sliabh Luachra, but it is generally accepted to refer to the mountainous rush-filled upland that straddles the border area of Cork, Kerry, and Limerick, including the Kerry parishes of Cordal, Brosna and Gneeveguilla, the town of Rathmore and the Cork village of Ballydesmond.
The name Sliabh Luachra means “a mountain of rushes”. However it is not a singular mountain, but a rolling plateau interspersed with what is generally accepted as its seven glens, or ‘seacht ngleann Shliabh Luachra’, over which various mountain peaks reach heights from approximately 450 to 500 metres.
I'm not quibbling over spelling. It's hardly frivolous to point out that you've misspelt Sliabh Luachra repeatedly (and have done so once again in your last message)!
What's the point of pasting the entire Wikipedia 'Sliabh Luachra' entry here which is incorrect, by the way, on several counts?
I enjoy learning polkas from good players, no matter where they're from. And I think it's worthwhile to learn to play polkas with a variety of feels, so you can fit in with whatever the local custom is. Yes, many Sliabh Luachra players do a good job with polkas, but so do musicians from other places.
Some Kerry players trend to smooth polkas out too much for my taste.
Last year we played for an impromptu wedding party. Most of the dancers were from Co. Mayo and they asked for polkas all night. They seemed very happy with the pulse we gave the polkas....
Here is The Tulla and The Siege of Ennis in one set. And thanks, ceolachan, for reminding me of that song from the olden days of folk clubs (The Rattling Bog).
thankyou old strings
the seige of ennis tune very similiar to salmon tails up the water.
other tunes that fit this dance very well so that the side steps can be stepped well are Rattlin bog , girl ileft behind me,and spanish ladies.
how anyone can want to do Seige of Ennis to jigs once they have ever danced it to tunes in 2/4 or 4/4 is beyond comprehension.
Two or three years ago I was sitting in as a "friend" with the musicians in a pub session in Kenmare - I suppose you'd call it a closed session since they were there primarily to entertain an audience of tourists. The leader introduced a set of Sliabh Luachra polkas to the audience and described the Sliabh Luachra region more or less on the lines that anon did a few posts back, except that he added that some people thought it extended out into the Atlantic.
There we have it - the origin of "Out On The Ocean"! (Yes, yes, I know, it's not a polka ... )
I was noticing today that polkas from songs (such as "Star of the County Down" and "Whiskey in the Jar") seem to be more similar to the Sliabh Luachra style of polkas than some of the polkas as played at the general sessions who are not familiar with the Sliabh Luachra polka style. The whole beat on the 2nd and 4th, instead of 1 and 3 is present, which makes me wonder if the voice is better able to preserve the polka style than whatever method the polkas as tunes only are learned. Just a thought.
@bogman: I never said Scandinavian and German polkas were like Irish ones, I said they were not. There are similarities in the dance steps though. My point is precisely that they are different. It is as foolish to think of one particular source as the be all and end all of performance practice for Irish polkas as it would be to confuse the Scandinavian German ones with the Irish ones.
@Lonelyhearts ARRRGH. Check my spelling on this on too!
cboody, an A+ on spelling this time, but word choice needs improvement. "...performance practice...." Oh lordy I hope we don't need to go *there* again.
listen to Sliabh luachra musicans,if you are seriously interested in playing polkas and slides,it is the definitive style.,it is not foolish to listen to just this one source.,it is sensible
I am just waiting for some joker to say ;no go away and listen to the one recording of johnny doherty,or sean maguire[belfast].
carry on,prattle on about spelling.
but if you want to listen to polkas and slides played well listen to JuliaClifford Johnny OLeary,Denis Murphy,Jackie Daly all Sliabh Luachra musicians.
Captain Haddock, nobody is prattling on about spelling. It's simply disrespectful to misspell someone's name (as you frequently do - you've just mangled Johnny O'Leary in your message above) and sheer ignorance to misspell a place name.
If I want to listen to Sliabh Luachra polkas, then I'd start with Pádraig O'Keeffe, include his star pupils, and then head on to the Séamus Creagh/Jackie Daly album.
But you can't seem to get it into your skull that there's a variety of Irish polka-playing styles and that these are worthy of equal consideration.
Polkas
Polkas
Hi,
I've been puzzling over a little bit of something. But let me start out with saying this may be a bit of touchy topic, I"m just looking for ideas and how things work, without intending or meaning anything negative.
That said, I was listening to some Sliabh Luachra/Kerry polkas (specifically Johnny O'Leary, Denis Murphy, and Dennis Doody) and was noticing how the polka swing feel (played with fiddle, accordion, and/or penny whistle) is very different from most modern bands who use sound equipment, guitars, and drums. So I was wondering, if these modern equipment or instruments or just the instruments which are different have any effect on the polka swing sort of sound. Like, is this particular swingy sound harder to get or hear from guitars or drums, or the like, or do these instruments limit the swingy sound that comes out? Or, is it that many of bands nowadays just do not have that swing in their playing?
Again, I'm not saying this tendency is bad, just different, and just wondering if anyone has any ideas as to why there is a difference, and whether the difference is how the tunes are played or the particular instruments that are used.
Thanks,
Enirehtac
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by enirehtac
Re: Polkas
The future just ain't what it used to be...
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Polkas
Never heard an all guitar and drum with sound equipment Polka. I should get out more.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: Polkas
It's an argument you could polka lotta holes in.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Polkas
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Polkas
It could be down to the players .
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Kenny
Re: Polka abuse
My knee-jerk first response is to blame the accompanists, not the sound system, but there, yes, that too.
Accompanists take their art, too often, for granted, and that will get in the way of a decent balance, one based on understanding the form. If any form is taken repeatedly for granted as 'easy', it is polkas, and a lot of cr*p playing results. Worse, are the accompanists, bangers, whether percussion or banging out chord progressions, if they have that much knowledge of such.
Don't get me wrong, I love a decent accompanist, but I'm not sure such are in the majority or in the ascendance?
Sound systems, they too get badly used, and a hall and poor planning can mean that things get swallowed up in the constantly expanding and crossing sound bouncing off of surfaces. There are so many variables, including the equipment being used and how it is set up and the environment and whether or not the balance between venue and kit is made in a reasonable way. Reverb dulls rhythm, muddies the music.
And then there's the problem of 'more'. 1, 2 and 3 musicians is great, and fairly manageable and able to find agreement, so tney cary a similar message melody wise and rhythm wise, but the more the numbers grow, like reverberating signals bouncing off of hard surfaces, the greater the potential for a muddy sound ~ one potentially out of agreement on a number of points ~ tuning, rhythm, melody, style... That doesn't mean it still can't be fun and great kick, but it won't be as 'clean' and under the sking as a tight set by a few. But it can still be great craic.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Polkas
I don't think I've ever heard good strumming to the Sliabh Luachra style of polkas. The more in your face up tempo ones yes, Donal Lunny is particularly good at strumming to those. But there is a certain rhythm to the old style of playing them that just doesn't lend itself to strumming. It's the same with the Sliabh Luachra slides. Strummers do two things, they iron out the detail and fill in the gaps.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ...
Re: Polkas
"~ they iron out the detail ~" ~ !!!
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Polkas
Maybe some of the difference is with the pulse. I studied with Matt Cranitch, a Sliabh Luachra officianado, and there is a pulse with polkas, and I think that subtlety is missed by many who play them more like a reel. When I say pulse, the emphasis is on beats 2 and 4. I was taught this by another fiddler who did most polkas with two slurred notes each measure, but you leaned into the second slurred note each time.
It really changes the dynamics of the tune. In settings of 1-3 players, it's probably easily detected. In a power band, I'm sure it's lost.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by nofrets
Re: Polkas
Probably the most maligned rhythm in the canon.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Patkiwi
Re: Polkas
Yeah nofrets, polKA polKA, 2 and 4.
I don't think it's the accompaniment, though it's often the first to nudge a well played polka out of the 2 and 4 and into the 1 and 3. I think even a lot of melody players don't have the appreciation or the exposure to the proper swing.
Like Mr. C says, they're seen as easy, people whip them out and bash them about like it's Oktoberfest, and there you have it. Sad.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Polkas
There is a difference between those instruments with a sustained note, eg fiddle and flute, and those with transient notes, like piano, guitar banjo. What I mean is if you listen to someone bowing or blowing in a polka, there is an emphasis on the off beat, done by increasing pressure or speed of bow or breath which is impossible on other instruments. The 'pulse' mentioned by Patkiwi.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by gam
Re: Polkas
Not Patkiwi -- nofrets.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by gam
Re: Polkas
No frets is correct,I recently heard KILFENORA CEIL BAND live their reels were excellent ,but they were clearly unused to polkas and slides.,mainly the drummers fault.
llig, its to do with putting an emphasis on the offbeat, [still I am not surprised at your reply],a good guitarist who is acquainted with the style can do it, listen toPaul deGrae
it is to do with listening and getting the pulse right
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
Non, je ne regrette nofrets
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Polkas
West Limerick musicians would have it quite differently to Sliabh Luachra musicians and on again to west Kerry. There's no "one" correct rhythm, what I don't understand is that from NZ to Canada polkas are played so badly. It's not like there's any shortage of available archive recordings, there's tons of stuff on youtube now but nobody seems to want to understand that there's a backbeat that defines the tune making a relatively simple series of notes an incredibly complex whole.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Patkiwi
Re: Polkas
I like this clip of Matt Cranitch, Donal Murphy and Steve Cooney playing 3 polkas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VGwMnppEOQ
You can hear the pulse that is talked about above (you can actually see it if you watch Cranitch's bow) and the guitar doesn't overpower it. Sometimes guitars overemphasize the off-beat so that whatever pulse the melody players are creating is lost.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by John Culhane
Re: Polkas
Ah yes, well, he's Steve Cooney and most other people are not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiVSvvYfMU8
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Polkas
...and he was Johnny O'Leary and we are but mere mortals!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x67j_aWFqxk
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Polkas
Shh, the masters are working. (We miss you Seamus)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upEilWXAJn4
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Polkas
I think it's up to the melody instrument/s in the band to take the lead and for the drummer and other members to follow that lead. In my personal experience, a drummer can play a strict polka beat or they can just do some accenting here and there and let the fiddle (or accordian, etc.) do the bulk of the work. Both methods work... I agree that it is most likely the skill level of the players themselves, or a crappy PA system or mic system that doesn't allow for the natural tones and sounds (as natural as they can get, anyhow) of the instruments.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Polkas
AlBrown < The future just ain't what it used to be...>
Has answered most of your Question -- Young one's now,, Dont
Play to the Old Irish Traditional Rhythm's. They dont run the Phrases
now.They Cut Notes Short alot. And use a lot of Musical Syncopation...
And as fast as hell to a single heavy Beat...
If yOU Listen To-
PADDY CANNY AND CHARLIE LENNON - You will see/hear what I mean...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBONRwNY77c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Kx2LtClMFQ
Sliabh Luachra Saddly I think is Going down the same path--
jim,,
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Polkas
Matt Cranitch once told me that when it came to polkas then Steve Cooney was the man in terms of guitar accompaniment. I'd go along with that, but also plug Jim Murray and Tommy O'Sullivan.
However, Matt was talking about Sliabh Luachra polkas which are substantially different from Clare polkas (a point which anon clearly does not appreciate). Here's the Kilfenora CB playing 'Tierney's Polkas' - http://bit.ly/cxjx2q - in the much more sedate fashion of the county. The band's drummer sounds perfectly au fait to me.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Polkas
Perhaps this illustrates some of the comments above:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lElGO5amgtE&NR=1
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Polkas
Aye up West Limerick ~ YeeHa!!!
Yes Jim, speed kills...
I'm glad some decent accompaniment is being given... When it is good it's a kick, when it blends and doesn't get in the way.
I also love the Clare way with polkas, as well as how they can be taken in the far north, Ulster way, lovely stuff. The variety is part of the joy of this music, but enirehtac's point was specific to Sliabh Luachra.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Polkas
Sack the teacher without delay.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: Polkas
With regards the last youtube there.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by bogman
As well, certain melodies make their own demands...
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Polkas
That last U-Tube ~ Bless em! But ~ ugh! As if dots could be 'authentic'...
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Mush-a-ring-um-do-em-wrong...
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Polkas
Yes, very unfortunate for the poor souls. Hopefully some of them will be rescued.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: Polkas
There are entire sessions out our way that resemble that last youtube clip.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Polkas
Thanks for those links of Seamus and the O'Learys SWFL, much appreciated and enjoyed here...
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Polkas
Consider dialects that are changing rapidly in language. Why would music be any different?
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Polkas
Its amazing how someone with a sense for polkas and slides can make them sound really nice. Sadly those folks are few and far between I will at this point include my self in the larger group- with the qualification that I am working my way through learning the style and am not quite there yet.
The problem is that there is a basic simplicity to both polkas and slides that make them prone to abuse by rocket fast players who all through the, or approach the rythym as (from my Polish polka previous existence) oomPa oomPa until someone changes the tune and the key. They become very monotonous.
And Johnny O'leary made them sound so effortless.
I have the additional cross to bear. When My Polish Mother hears Irish polkas....She say's 'You call that a Polka!?!?!? No clarinet, trumpet bid drum doing the big STOMP". Then she pulls out my late father's L'l Wally collection
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Polkas
zippydw
I would love to hear sound samples, of the Polish Way
Of playing Polka's -- any names to look up on Spotify
for example's...
Regard's -- jim,,,
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by FIDDLE4
Re: Polkas
Poor zippydw, a life of polka abuse...
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Polkas
I'd second the recommendation of Steve Cooney for an example of backing polkas and slides, also Jim Murray, and Paul deGrae.
Dancing to a Sliabh Luachra set really helps to get the feel of the rhythm. Dancing to a Clare or Sligo polka set is definitely a different feel.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Polkas
Thanks for that link to the Kilfenora Ceili Band, Floss the Teathers, and for making the really good point that Sliabh Luachara polkas are different from Clare polkas, from W. Limerick, from etc.....
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by John Culhane
Re: Polkas
ceolachen
there is an irony here. I dance the "Polish Polka" pretty well. Over the years, at Polish weddings, my Irish red headed Herself has chosen increasingly to sit them out. My Polish mother had a hip replaced, so she doesn't participate in the "Polish Stomp".
But Herself's mother....has always been a willing partner.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Polkas
I coped with the challenge of accompanying polkas by learning the melodies of all that are played around here, and thus I avoided the issue altogether!
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Polkas
SWFLF said: "Ah yes, well, he's Steve Cooney and most other people are not".
Really? I thouht he was Bill Bailey.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: Polkas
Cool stuff! I love the thing about guitars ironing out the details - priceless. Lots of wonderful ideas, and good perspective. Thanks so much for all the links.
Enirehtac
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by enirehtac
Re: Polkas
>No frets is correct,I recently heard KILFENORA CEIL BAND >live their reels were excellent ,but they were clearly unused to >polkas and slides.,mainly the drummers fault.
Ah the internet, eh?
That place where you can read someone rejoicing in the name "anon" expect to be taken sriously when they declaim about the *KILFENORA CEILI BAND* not knowing their polkas and slides.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I can only recommend that like myself, you always take advice from the anons of this world seriouisly when they point out the misunderstandings of ceili bands that have 100 years playing behind them.
- chris
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Polkas
you were not there on the night.
the band leader ;made the following announcement,we have a cd for sale but I dont expect youll be buying it after the way we played the last set of polkas.
the dancers were clearly used to sliabh luchra polkas and slides.
the clip that Floss provided of the kilfenoras playing the english tune la russe has no relevance,this was not the tune I was referring to or the set.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
What relevance is my moniker?
because a band has a100 years of playing behind them ,it does not follow that they can be expected to play conversantly in diferent styles.
I would expect them to be able to play well in the style of their region which they did, their reels were excellent,
in the same way I would not automatically expect a sliabh luchra player to be conversant with donegal highlands,or a donegal player to play slides or polkas for dancing.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
so,as the dance in question was in Bantry[not far from sliabh luchra],the dancers were clearly expecting sliabh luchra polkas and slides[hardly surprising].
I understand that the kilfenora band have a changeable line up,it was however a very enjoyable night,and I would like to thank the kilfenoras for a great music evening.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
Anon has clearly forgotten his original post: 'I recently heard KILFENORA CEIL BAND live their reels were excellent ,but they were clearly unused to polkas and slides.,mainly the drummers fault.'
I was merely pointing out that the KCB is used to playing the Clare version of the polka and the reason I linked to the clip was to provide evidence of how well they do so.
In all probability, the band was trying to please the dancers down in Bantry and made the mistake of playing a set of Sliabh Luachra polkas with which it was not entirely familiar.
Fair enough, but shouldn't whoever booked them for the event have been more astute and provided prior warning?
Anon also writes: 'in the same way I would not automatically expect a sliabh luchra player to be conversant with donegal highlands,or a donegal player to play slides or polkas for dancing'
Virtually every Donegal fiddler I know has several polkas in his or her repertoire, but the way they play them is attuned to the local dancers. Tommy Peoples, of course, has a much broader experience.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Polkas
Geoff Wallis says;Fair enough, but shouldn't whoever booked them for the event have been more astute and provided prior warning?
fair enough comment.
however regardless of what you might say Sliabh Luchra is the home of irish polkas not Donegal, Clare ulster or anywhere else in the same way Donegal is the home of highlands,and nobody would argue that they play them[highlands] better in sliabh luchra than they do in Donegal,the same applies to polkas,Sliabh Luchra is the defining style for plokas and slides.
your clip is interesting ,the english tune la russe, which is normally used for a particular pattern dance.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
Sliabh Luchra is highly regarded as a home of polkas and slides, but these forms are played in every county and abroad, and there is no single "defining" or definitive style for playing them. Just as with reels and hornpipes, polkas and slides are played according to local taste and custom, which varies from place to place.
Sure, some people prefer the Sliabh Luchra style, but that's all it is, a preference.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Polkas
I disagree with you there, would you say the same thing about Highlands,Highlands survived exclusively in Donegal,in my opinion,and it seemed to be the opinion of Johnny O Leary,and John and Julia Clifford,[two people Iknew and discused it with]that slides and polkas were the music of sliabh luchra.so we must agree to disagree.
to be able to dance well to the music is a priority.watching the dancers they werent doing that well with the slides and a lesser extent the polkas,the reels were very good.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
Silly. "Sliabh Luchra is the defining style for polkas and slides."
It's certainly a really good way to play them, but the use of the word "defining" is silly.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by ...
Re: Polkas
I've come the road from (early on) regarding slides and polkas as brain death to (now) realising that they're marvellous and surprisingly difficult to play well. Part of the reason is that often enough in English sessions and ceilidhs the slides are just played like other 6/8 jigs and the polkas like, say, Northumbrian 2/4s, making them fairly (or very) stodgy and tedious. There's no real equivalent in English trad rhythms, as far as I know, to Kerry polkas and slides, especially when the speed of these is seriously tweaked up.
I'd change 'the culture' regarding these in sessions, if I wasn't so old and lazy / could remember which polka / slide was which...!
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Polkas
Great clips on this thread, btw.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Polkas
Sorry, but highlands aren't exclusive to Donegal. We play them even here in Montana.
The point is, the tunes traveled around Ireland just as they now travel around the world, and people develop local customs for playing them. There is no such thing as a defining style. Polkas and slides may be a significant portion of the Sliabh Luchra repertoire, and there may be a Sliabh Luchra manner of playing them, but that doesn't make it the defining way of playing these forms across the island any more than the Sligo style is the only or best way to play reels.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Polkas
The bad rap polkas get is that too many people play them the way they played the first one they learned, back when they got their first brand new tin whistle. Slow and march-like, rather than quick and nimble.
I would say that a highland played at elevations near 5,000 feet is indeed " high land" music!
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Polkas
And because polkas don't have as many notes in them as do reels and jigs they're seen as an obvious choice to teach beginners. It should be the other way round - no polkas (or slides) until you're really up to speed and rhythmically fluent in reels and jigs. Unfortunately, my clock doesn't run backwards
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Polkas
Not much new here, but perhaps some reinforcement:
The Polka is a dance. It exists in lots of countries. It is played very differently in different countries, and in fact the tunes are quite different in melodic shape in various places. I suppose one might agrue that Sliabh Luchra style of playing is a basic style for polkas in Ireland, though I'm in no position to jusge whether that is a valid statement. What I can say is There isn't much in common between the Irish polkas I know and play and the Scandinavian and German Polkas that are common where I live.
Yes polkas can be less technically difficult to play that (some) jigs and reels, but there is no reason they shouldn't be a starting point for learning the repertoire...as long as one is learning by listening to good players of the repertoire.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by cboody
Re: Polkas
argue ... judge ...
why is it I can never see errors until after posting!?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by cboody
Re: Polkas
LOL, not to mention "than" in your last sentence. But who's counting?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Polkas
my advice is to listen to good sliabh luchra players playing polkas and slides.JuliaClifford,JackieDaly, and guitarists such asPaul de Grae
personally, I do not care much for Highlands,I prefer Strathspeys,in my opinion they are on occasions inferior versions of the same tune,but each to their own.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
Silly. "Sliabh Luchra is the defining style for polkas and slides."
It's certainly a really good way to play them, but the use of the word "defining" is silly.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by llig leahcim
so why do people choose sliabh luchra players such as DenisMurphy,Julia Clifford JohnnyO Leary,Jackie Dalywhen they learn slides and polkas,rather than Clare players like BobbyCasey or Donegal players like Tommy Peoples,because the sliabh luchra style of playing is definitive,
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
cboody, the polkas in Scandanavia and Germany have nothing to do with Irish polkas, all they share is the name. They are related to Scottish 2/4 dance tunes.
Anon, the assertion that the Kilfenora Ceili Band cannot play polkas in a Sliabh Luchra style because they're not from there is hilarious. As some of the most experienced players in Ireland do you not think they have heard of, and can imitate the playing of Clifford, the O' Connors, O' Leary's etc? If they couldn't then sympathies to the legions of players who's never been to Ireland far less Cork and Kerry. I love polkas and am perfectly confident of doing a very close impression of a Sliabh Luchra polka without having ever been there. If they had a problem on the night in question then maybe the tried a request they didn't really know or just had a wee moment. Sorry, nothing could persuade me they were incapable because they're not from the right area. That's just stupid.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Polkas
Anon, what do you mean when you say the Sliabh Luachra style of playing is definitive?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by premier
Re: Polkas
I mean it is what nearly all players listen to when they want to hear slides and polkas,the acclaimed players of slides and polkas are Julia Clifford,DenisMurphy,Johnny O Leary,JackieDaly,Paddy Cronin.
DONEGAL STYLE players such as Johnny Docherty are sensible listening for highlands,and heis acclaimed for playing in a donegal style ,I dont think I ever heard Johnny Docherty play polkas .
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
did I say it was because they were not from the right area?
no , I think it is more likely that the line up on that night was not that familiar with sliabh luchra style polas and slides,
I understand they have a changeable line up,I would imagine that when Tim Collins plays with them,that their sound would be different again.
I am talking about one occasion with a particular line up.the other unusual thing that hapened on this night was that when requested to do haymakers jig or the occasional pattern dances we were given seige of ennis twice
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
Maybe you should send them some recordings. Bit embarrassing to be playing in one of Irelands top dance bands and not be aware of the Sliabh Luchra style of polka.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: Polkas
on ths subject of the Seige of Ennis,the original tune which is rather similiar to salmon tails up the water,is in 2/4time.this dance which has side step is [imo]much better either as areel or a polka,when it comes to doing the sidesteps than jigstry it out and you will see
Bogman,I would imagine it is because majority of the time the clare sets require reels rather than polkas, for example the clare plain set is reels and jigs
the kilfenoras played great music their reels and jigs were very good.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
John Doherty certainly knew some polkas, though the only recorded evidence I'm aware of (please correct me if I'm wrong) is 'The Dark Girl Dressed in Blue' which appears on the Saydisc CD 'Traditional Dance Music of Ireland' as well as the Folktrax cassette 'The Pedlar's Pack'.
In Ireland highlands are certainly not unique to Donegal - see this comment for further information: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21850/comments#comment454215.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Polkas
yes, but were highlands played in sliabh luchra?
I dont mean now in this time of mass communication,but when regional styles were more definite
one polka,whereas the sliabh luchra musicians played hundreds,I doubt if there are many highlands recorded by the older traditional sliabh luchra musicians[o keefe murphy, clifford, tom billy] either.
your argument just doesnt stand up
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
What argument?
I'm merely pointing out that John Doherty knew at least one polka. You claimed that you had never heard him play one. I'm merely letting you know about the existence of a recording on which he does play a polka. And there are plenty of other examples of Donegal musicians who've recorded polkas.
'Regional styles' is not a term I prefer. I'd rather go for 'local styles' which share some congruity within a larger area. There's a noticeable difference, for instance, between the fiddle-playing of musicians from Inishowen and those of Glencolmcille.
And, for heaven's sake, 1) it's SLIABH LUACHRA, and 2) 'Sliabh Luchra is the home of irish polkas not Donegal, Clare ulster' - Donegal is part of Ulster.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Polkas
you may quibble over spelling,but the fact of the matter is that if people want to listen to polkas and slides played well ,they invariably direct their attention to the players I mentioned ,who come from slaibh luachra
sliabh Luachra (Irish pronunciation: [ʃlʲiəvˠ ˈl̪ˠuəxɾˠə]) is a region in Munster, Ireland, located around the River Blackwater, on the County Cork/County Kerry/County Limerick borderland.
This region has a UNIQUE musical style which makes heavy use of the polka and the slide. Indeed, most of the polkas and slides in Irish traditional music derive from this region. Musicians from the area include Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford, Paddy Cronin, Padraig O'Keeffe, Johnny O'Leary, Jackie Daly, Con Curtin and Donal Murphy .
Two of Kerry's best known Gaelic poets, Aogán Ó Rathaille and Eoghan Rua Ó Súilleabháin, are also from the area.
Opinions differ as to the exact location and extent of Sliabh Luachra, but it is generally accepted to refer to the mountainous rush-filled upland that straddles the border area of Cork, Kerry, and Limerick, including the Kerry parishes of Cordal, Brosna and Gneeveguilla, the town of Rathmore and the Cork village of Ballydesmond.
The name Sliabh Luachra means “a mountain of rushes”. However it is not a singular mountain, but a rolling plateau interspersed with what is generally accepted as its seven glens, or ‘seacht ngleann Shliabh Luachra’, over which various mountain peaks reach heights from approximately 450 to 500 metres.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
I'm not quibbling over spelling. It's hardly frivolous to point out that you've misspelt Sliabh Luachra repeatedly (and have done so once again in your last message)!
What's the point of pasting the entire Wikipedia 'Sliabh Luachra' entry here which is incorrect, by the way, on several counts?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Polkas
I enjoy learning polkas from good players, no matter where they're from. And I think it's worthwhile to learn to play polkas with a variety of feels, so you can fit in with whatever the local custom is. Yes, many Sliabh Luachra players do a good job with polkas, but so do musicians from other places.
Some Kerry players trend to smooth polkas out too much for my taste.
Last year we played for an impromptu wedding party. Most of the dancers were from Co. Mayo and they asked for polkas all night. They seemed very happy with the pulse we gave the polkas....
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Polkas
Here is The Tulla and The Siege of Ennis in one set. And thanks, ceolachan, for reminding me of that song from the olden days of folk clubs (The Rattling Bog).
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/tulla_polka_siege_of_ennis_knockabower_polka/
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Polkas
Oh, that was by way of addressing the confusing of names of the two tunes. I meant to post it in the Comments (tunes) section.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Polkas
thankyou old strings
the seige of ennis tune very similiar to salmon tails up the water.
other tunes that fit this dance very well so that the side steps can be stepped well are Rattlin bog , girl ileft behind me,and spanish ladies.
how anyone can want to do Seige of Ennis to jigs once they have ever danced it to tunes in 2/4 or 4/4 is beyond comprehension.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
ha ha floss
misspelled not mis spelt,spelt is a form of flour,me thinks you have mis spelled mis spelt.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
I like the way they sometimes play polkas as barndances in Donegal.
That's cause I love barndances....
....Bonky bonky bonk......
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Polkas
Oh, and since we're on the spelling thingys..
JOHN DOHERTY. Theres no C.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Polkas
things; not thingys,there is no such word as thingys,there are thingamys,thingumajigs,and thingummys,but no thingys
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
Touché, touché.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Polkas
Two or three years ago I was sitting in as a "friend" with the musicians in a pub session in Kenmare - I suppose you'd call it a closed session since they were there primarily to entertain an audience of tourists. The leader introduced a set of Sliabh Luachra polkas to the audience and described the Sliabh Luachra region more or less on the lines that anon did a few posts back, except that he added that some people thought it extended out into the Atlantic.
There we have it - the origin of "Out On The Ocean"! (Yes, yes, I know, it's not a polka ... )
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Polkas
LOL, Hugo, you've found a way around the site's auto censor function.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Polkas
I was noticing today that polkas from songs (such as "Star of the County Down" and "Whiskey in the Jar") seem to be more similar to the Sliabh Luachra style of polkas than some of the polkas as played at the general sessions who are not familiar with the Sliabh Luachra polka style. The whole beat on the 2nd and 4th, instead of 1 and 3 is present, which makes me wonder if the voice is better able to preserve the polka style than whatever method the polkas as tunes only are learned. Just a thought.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by enirehtac
Re: Polkas
@bogman: I never said Scandinavian and German polkas were like Irish ones, I said they were not. There are similarities in the dance steps though. My point is precisely that they are different. It is as foolish to think of one particular source as the be all and end all of performance practice for Irish polkas as it would be to confuse the Scandinavian German ones with the Irish ones.
@Lonelyhearts ARRRGH. Check my spelling on this on too!
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by cboody
Re: Polkas
cboody, an A+ on spelling this time, but word choice needs improvement. "...performance practice...." Oh lordy I hope we don't need to go *there* again.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Polkas
listen to Sliabh luachra musicans,if you are seriously interested in playing polkas and slides,it is the definitive style.,it is not foolish to listen to just this one source.,it is sensible
I am just waiting for some joker to say ;no go away and listen to the one recording of johnny doherty,or sean maguire[belfast].
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
What on earth are you on about?
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by bogman
Re: Polkas
carry on,prattle on about spelling.
but if you want to listen to polkas and slides played well listen to JuliaClifford Johnny OLeary,Denis Murphy,Jackie Daly all Sliabh Luachra musicians.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
... or John McKenna - from Co.Leitrim. Or any number of players from Belfast.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Kenny
Re: Polkas
never mind chambers,floss
I was consulting the concise oxford dictionary.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
Cogito ergo melanogrammus aeglefinus sum.
Thanks for reminding us of John McKenna, Kenny. It's a crying shame that this - http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1548 - is not available on CD,
Captain Haddock, nobody is prattling on about spelling. It's simply disrespectful to misspell someone's name (as you frequently do - you've just mangled Johnny O'Leary in your message above) and sheer ignorance to misspell a place name.
If I want to listen to Sliabh Luachra polkas, then I'd start with Pádraig O'Keeffe, include his star pupils, and then head on to the Séamus Creagh/Jackie Daly album.
But you can't seem to get it into your skull that there's a variety of Irish polka-playing styles and that these are worthy of equal consideration.
Here's a West Limerick sample - http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_270_2_west_limerick_polkas/. Note the reference to Martin Mulvihill.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Polkas
'never mind chambers,floss
I was consulting the concise oxford dictionary.'
Then you'd be well advised to purchase a better one! :}
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Polkas
Oh the tangled web we weave, when first we practice to put words in a row!
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Polkas
practise,not practice
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Polkas
"the seige of ennis tune very similiar to salmon tails up the water"
Um, no, anon, it's The Tulla that's very similar to Salmon Tails.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by oldstrings
Re: Polkas
@Lonelyhearts What do you mean?? I know exactly what I mean by performance practice.
In re spelling: Apologies for my errors on the spelling. I copied it from another poster and so got caught perpetuating the problem.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by cboody
Re: Polkas
LOL cboody. Don't play coy? I'm not going there again.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Will Harmon