It's not doing that well where I am. The session stalwarts are
mostly well into their 50s. I can think of two strong young fiddle
players and fluter around the place but they don't show up that
often.
I spoke with him yesterday as a matter of fact. He's doing quite well. I teased him about being so well known these days from Tokyo to Tralee and every place in between, considering his rather humble beginnings. He laughed and said "if you hang around long enough with a cheerful attitude, sooner or latter people will just have to take you in."
I also asked if it concerned him that some folks are trying to change or tinker with his identity.
He said no "it's only when people stop paying attention that you have to worry - besides, some change is inevitable. It's called growth."
Oh the humanity! Shock and horror! Get those old geezers off to a home straight away, before they soil their clothes, drool on the table, or go forbid start comparing catheter bags to see whose is larger!
Ha! Ha! I am one of them too, Will. It just seems to me that a new
generation is not on the way through. Of course, I didn't even
even start playing ITM until I turned 50. So perhaps the next
generation doesn't yet know who they are.
It's my impression that not many people around Boston are really interested in the old folks, especially the young musicians. There's a big trend towards Scottish and Cape Breton influence, or a classical/jazz/bluegrass influence from Berklee. There's a sort of specific, very modern "Boston" sound, you know, and I do feel pretty "outside" being mostly influenced by old Irish players. Maybe it's innovation but by and large it does feel like dilution.
ITM! Does anyone outside of this board actually call it that. It's not as if anyone uses S(cottish)TM or E(nglish)TM, or do they? Surely the vast majority of musicians call it "trad". Any reason why we couldn't do the same? Even "Irish trad" if one really needs to distinguish it from any other nationality's ethnic music.
It's purely anecdotal, but on what I see and hear in my little corner of the country and on the summer school - fleadh circuit, I'd say trad's doing grand, certainly in terms of the number of musicians. Most would agree there's more playing now than ever before.
It's certainly a living tradition as evidenced by the resurgence of interest in céilí bands and sean-nós dance over the last ten years or so, hopefully slow air playing will have its turn in the sun soon. The standard of musicianship seems to me to grow each year with younger musicians having better chops than in my day while still having an interest in older tunes and styles of playing (the band Téada perhaps being the most visible example of this). I'd say there are less "real" pub seisiúns, as opposed to gig type seisiúns, certainly outside of the festivals, but there's more music-making going on in homes and the likes of community Rambling Houses.
All that said, it's a minority interest, even in Ireland, always has been and always will be.
Surprised and sorry to hear about Boston. I haven't been over since the '90 but I've played many a seisiún in Southie. Isn't there still an active Comhaltas branch and doesn't Séamus Connolly do things out of Boston College?
True what you say PJ, I never heard it referred to as "ITM" till I came on here. Always either "trad" or simply "the music".
As for how it's doing, it's stronger than ever. In Ireland anyway. The standard of musicianship has shot up over the last couple of decades too.
It does seem to have weakened in the last 10 years in Ennis alright. The sessions all became gigs, then the pubs decided not to pay for music anymore. Now there are only a couple of places where you'll still find a session.
Ebb and flow. It'll pick up again. There is a younger generation of very strong players. The music isn't going anywhere.
I've never ever ever used that horrid abreviation. And I've never ever heard anybody ever actually say it.
Maybe we could petition Jeremy to make one of those automatic text replacement things, like the one he has for Seejithorpe, to automatically replace the dreaded thing with "traditional Irish music". Personally, I'm of the view that the thing is much much worse than swearing.
Eòsaph ~ sorry to be so short, which isn't generally like me where passions of this nature are concerned, but I was expecting you'd get quite a mix of responses, as usual. You can also find this subject in the history of discussions here, and interesting comment there too. But I'll keep it short, just one mix of what I implied with "all of the above".
Sometimes a set back, or recession, is a good thing, as is happening it seems, from what I've heard, with that tsunami of set dancing that hit the island in the 80s and spread out with the expected results. As it receeds, and I hear of numbers shrinking and classes closing, it tends to become, again, more personal, less mob and mass hysteria, less manic. As it stands now, just dealing with this one issue, if you go to an event and look around you, you will often see all of an age, a 'generation'. Yes, there are some of that age teaching schools and starting up groups of youngsters and entering them into competition, etc., etc., etc... But, that doesn't necessarily sto what is natural, like a tide. Things go up and down. When something like a flood or wave recedes it can leave devestation, but it also tends to deposit nutrients, like with a volcano, and out of those can rise new growth, even a healthier growth. It can also raise appreciation for what has gone. The trick is to look beyond the mechanics and find the heart of the thing. That's what we value most, the heart, more than any step or figure.
I, personally, feel we've focused too much, in general, on the mechanics and on quantity. Maybe a recession will help us to re-evaluate what really matters with regards to these social pleasures of music and dance? For us it is about people, not 'Dancers' or 'Musicians', please note the captialization...
There must be something wrong with the internet today. I thought I typed "www.thesession.org" into the URL and somehow ended up at www.poetry.com. Weird.
possibly the next generation is a bit disconcerted at the ageing population of session players, only to end up for their efforts, in the disembodied "ITM" purgatory of the mustard boards, where you can only talk about it.
Possibly. Instead of taking out instruments and playing tunes, sessioneers will sit around a ouija board in the pub, putting their hands on the thingy and thinking of a set of tunes. The thingy will tell them the names of the tunes in the set. Then, after a bit of blather and drink, they'll all think together of the next set and the ouija thingy will guide their hands to the tunes they are thinking of. Genius.
I'm just thankful that we're all (well, most of us anyway) are on the right side of the thingy - at this stage, anyway.
No need for group think, just hum a phrase or two, and bob's your uncle.
Perhaps the fact that we talk about it too much is part of the problem (myself included as I spend far too much time here). If it's a concern is over a lack of good younger players to carry the tradition forward, I can offer some input as a newcomer (though not that young).
I mean no disrespect to the seasoned players here (I'm probably about 5 years away from being one), but as a recent convert I find that the surliness that is rampant here has never really affected me, but I can see how it would turn people off who are innocently looking into the music, with as many or more misconceptions as I may have had. It all adds to an exclusionary posture, at least on a perceptional level to newcomers. Perhaps it could be argued that this is not such a bad thing as it thins the heard, so to speak. I'll listen to such arguments. What I won't give much merit too, however, is anyone who drives people away from this music with cynicism and derision (you know who you are), then turns around and moans about no good new players.
Personally, I think it's doing just fine where I am, at least in terms of younger players. I know a fine young piper and a few other fine younger musicians who frequent the local sessions here, all respectful of the music and a joy to play with, and I find that I learn just as much from them as I do from the older players.
I don't know that there are many younger people who post on this board at all. The average age seems like at least 50...maybe a lot more!
The surliness here is indeed a bit daunting at first, until you realise how hilarious and ridiculous it is.
It's a long way from Clare to here alright.
Jimmy, you really shouldn't be thinking for the briefest second that "the mustard board" has even the slightest impact on the health of trad. And certainly in Ireland, as tradshark and myself have both suggested, there's far more "good younger players" around than ever before.
It is disconcerting however that any Google search on words related to trad brings up this board as one of the first results. Along with banning the term "ITM", I can't help but wonder if a "banner" suggesting to the neophyte that they seek out their nearest branch of Comhaltas (for all the organisation's faults, and there are many, it's a better resource for those new to trad) would be a service.
If you can be turned off the music by a bunch of anonymous surly posters on a message board, you probably weren't that interested in it in the first place.
Most of the people I play with are under 50. Glasgow has loads of young players who are fantastic musicians.
Great scene in Hartford, CT, due to PV O'Donnell, a wonderful fiddler from Donegal, who teaches classy old tunes to his students, so it's all ages, very enthusiastic crowd.
I liked the "in re-session" comment, Lint-on Tweed.
There is a big world of trad beyond the mustard board.
I think this board has an impact of sorts on "the tradition," but I would suggest that the impact is more on the transmission of tunes rather than having any significant effect putting people off, or not, from learning to play. Everyone I know has looked up at least one tune on thesession.org. Some don't even know it has a "discussion" section and only regard it as a tune database.
Maybe it's more an issue as some have said, of 'how are sessions doing', rather than how's the music doing. The music seems increasingly popular, just judging by the number of artists putting out recordings, and tours going on.
Sessions might be a different thing though, and any newcomers wandering in here first up and gettin' a shellacing, might well get the impression that other "sessions" are like that too.
They're not though...are they.
Well, I don't agree that this board has no impact. A simple search of anything remotely connected with trad will usually pull this site up on the first page. In this day and age where most people research something they are interested in on the Internet how can it not have an impact?
Spear -
That was part of my point. I just thought it odd that anybody on this board would bemoan a lack of good younger players and wonder why that is when clearly many who inquire are met with the surlies. I myself treasure the curmudgeons. Bring 'em on. I do believe this site has an impact on the music, for better or worse.
Again, as a newcomer myself, I think my input is at least somewhat relevant. My experience at sessions has been entirely positive. However, if I look at many threads here one would think this is not the case. I inquired here before I sat at my first session. I had already spectated quite a few, but as I was getting up my nerve to jump in and learning a few tunes on my mando, I asked for input here. I got some good advice, along with the usual shellacking. Anyone with skin that is not the thickest will have the impression that that is what they will run into when they try to sit down at their first session. Like I said before, I don't know that this is necessarily a bad thing. Sarcastic humor is part of the session world. My point is that my experience here is a bit different than what I run into at any session. Whatever. None of this will keep me from going to either location.
jb, I agree that the mustard board can be more than daunting. I didn't come near the discussion area for years, and when I did and started reading some of the threads, I'm glad I'd been sessioning for years before that! I think it's down to the majority of positive contributors to affect, in the long run the culture of this forum. I think it has improved.
When this site was down for a day recently, a lot of regulars seems to have had serious withdrawal symptoms requiring various types of liquid or other remedies, and mutual online counseling.
It’s an interesting phenomenon...there is more craic here than you will hear at a session, and a huge learning resource, drawn and concentrated from global sources, not just your local session; and the surliness is disembodied as well, so that's a bonus. I find it pretty entertaining.
You have to grow with it, I think; after all we could all end up here in mustard board land one day…a bit like a comfortable elephant’s graveyard, with a surly corner.
I should add, in fairness too, that I have learned a huge amount from this site, mostly, I dare to say, from some of the surlies (not that I haven't enjoyed watching and sometimes contributing to the shellackings the surlies got, and continue to get. Excellent craic.)
Without this, I have my doubts whether I would still be playing the music, because I found that I got a bit sessioned-out over time.
I guess nothing is black or white, but there is probably much more positive than negative here.
Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, did you not read my second para? For every one person scared away by this board (does that really happen?) dozens and dozens start music classes run by Comhaltas branches. I'm with Silver on this one, if it happens at all, is it really a loss that adversely impacts the health of trad? Nope.
duij, to my way of thinking this board is has no real influence on the health of trad is that its field of interest is so narrow. With the focus on playing in pub seisiúns and recorded artists it ignores so much of what for many, certainly here in Ireland, is the heart of "the music": the large number of music classes, the fleadh and summer school circuits, the music making that goes on in private houses, at gatherings to mark births, birthdays, marriages, deaths etc, the exchange of private recordings that goes on all the time, céilí bands and céilí dancing, slow air playing, sean-nós singing and dancing, I could go on and on. Certainly I've lost count of the number of musicians who've told me that, outside of the fleadhs and perhaps Willie week, they don't play in pub seisiúns anymore.
I take the Spear's point the board is well known as a repository of tunes though I'm not entirely persuaded that's a good thing
pjd, I'm pretty sure the site's influence in Ireland, given the mosaic of trad music activities available there, is minimal. Maybe not so in other areas, and after all, it is a global site.
Anyway, ye have no time to be goin' through these threads here, with all that goin' on there. Get to it, man.
No need to get exasperated by my musings. My response was based mainly on the notion that this site hasn't the slightest impact on the health of trad. I think that was my primary disagreement. As for whether or not people are turned away, I have no way of knowing that, it's just a perspective offered. I probably offer more posts than I should.
Sorry Danjo and JoeCSS I have to disagree with you regarding Irish Traditional music in Boston. Yes I've noticed some of the young Berklee players pushing the envelope a bit but then again Berklee is not really known for being a stalwart of Irish Traditional Music, with the caveat that I know some great trad players that have come through the ranks of Berklee. I have also come across and played with plenty of fine musicians, both young and old, who have a great respect for this music and it shows in the music that they play.
Might you toss some names out? I go to Boston College here and I've got a good few Berklee/former Berklee friends who I think would agree that the scene at large is very nontraditional in its approach. I only know one young musician, for example, who I could see and say, "I was listening to Aislingi Ceoil the other day and Noel Hill's solo set [Rainy Day/Merry Blacksmith/Silver Spear] is great," and he'd say back, "Ah yeah, the Seamus Ennis set!". Although there are musicians in the younger generation with respect for the tradition, they often aren't invested in that same way, listening to Ennis, Clancy, John Kelly, John Doherty, Elizabeth Crotty, Fred Finn, Peter Horan...they might know those three tunes, but would they know where they came from and why they persist as a great set...
In no particular order: Johnny O'Leary, Peter Molloy, Tina Lech, Ted Davis, George Keith, Helena Delaney, Sean (the Claw) Clohessy, Peter McGuire, Oisin MacAuley, Noel Scott, James Hamilton, Martin Langer, Jimmy Noonan, Brendan Bulger, Ailish Crean..........to name few
I don't think that is limited to Boston. You can go anywhere in the world and find musicians who aren't that familiar with the playing of Ennis, Clancy, Fred Finn, Peter Horan, et. al., just as you can go anywhere in the world and find people who are. Some folk choose to pay attention to where the tunes came from and others don't. I wish folk would be more cognizant of what came before them, as it frustrates me when they want to write their own tunes, play modern tunes, indeed, even act somewhat disparaging towards those of us who "only" want to play "traditionally", but do so without first acquiring knowledge of the tradition. But that's their choice. And it happens everywhere there is trad music.
There still aren't any local sessions in my area. I am not well versed enough in the tradition of sessions to start one up on my own. So that is kinda sad. It would be nice if someone came out of the woodwork around here.
As for the other ideas posted on this thread... I would have to agree with a general observation that most younger folks call it trad rather than ITM and that the culture is perhaps moving away from what the pure old ITM folks were raised on. But, in some ways, that is the nature of any art and its evolution through time. I think there will always be some who keep that core alive, but perhaps those folks should also start reaching across the circle, so to speak, to help draw progressive youth in to their fold.
I've said this before, but it's worth repeating in the context of a lot of posts on this thread:
If you consider this website a "resource", then you are severely under resourced.
Its saving grace is that it has zero effect on the music. Sure, it may have an effect for the severely under resourced, but that's their fault for not getting out into the real bloody world. I have no sympathy.
Well, it's a resource for opinions (maybe from the largely opinionated) but some kind of litmus test for what a group of people think. It's a resource for tunes, if you want dots or recordings to help you learn something you have heard.
I sometimes think opinions expressed on this board are narrower and less tolerant than in the real world outside but you do come her looking for a bit of discussion or controversy!
And how's traditional music doing? Depends where you live and who you know?
I agree with SilverSpear, there isn't a lack of young people, in fact there was more young people (under 21) at the fleadh in Tullamore than any other age group in my honest opinion, Trad music is definatley on the rise if anything and has been for 60 years
I thunk it's doing fine. I'm a piper and 'round these parts lots of "younger" (late 20's and 30's) are taking up the pipes and the tradition. There are a lot of incredible young pipers out there. Considering how close the pipes were to extinction less than 30 years ago, I'd say it's quite the renaissance.
Here's a thought based on nothing but wild conjecture. Back in the hairy 70's embracing Irish traditional music was much like a lifestyle choice, like being a hippie. It consumed you and became your identity. If you were listening to music, it was Irish or maybe some folk but that was it. I think nowadays people embrace Irish music but it is just music and not something young people necessarily need to adapt as personae.
I spent years performing and recording experimental music and still listen to it (and heavy metal, and indie music, and old blues and throat singing etc) but I've also taken to Irish music and the tradition but not the exclusion of other forms of music.
I'm sure I'm wildly off-base here but just a vague rainy Thursday afternoon kind of theory. Plus, I like making fun of hippies.
And I'm 42, don't know if that makes me old or young.
Fiddlechick7, forgive me but I'm not sure I understand "the culture is perhaps moving away from what the pure old ITM folks were raised on" and "I think there will always be some who keep that core alive, but perhaps those folks should also start reaching across the circle, so to speak, to help draw progressive youth in to their fold.". I'm guessing you're not terribly familiar with the scene in Ireland where more than not you'll find young and old, purist and progressive playing quite happily together.
And what's this about not being "well versed enough in the tradition of sessions to start one up on my own". There's no "tradition of sessions", no mystique. Two people sat together playing tunes, that's a seisiún. How to find someone another musician who plays trad? Flyers in a coffee shop, local music college, music shop or Irish pub; put an ad on Craigs List or in the local free press; call the local radio station/newspaper tell them you're looking to find musicians to play trad; call the nearest branch of Comhaltas (even if it's in another city) they may know someone near you; earlier this week didn't you say you were an Irish dancer surely you know someone, who knows someone, who . . . you get my drift.
To be honest they don't even have to play trad. Just wanting to learn is enough. Don't wait for someone to come out of the woodwork draw them out. A seisiún isn't about musical excellence, it's about social connection through a shared interest. Two people in a kitchen having fun stumbling through the Connaughtman's Rambles is all you need to start.
Ah John, maybe it was just a miscommunication; I was thinking more in the 15-25 age bracket (I'm 20 myself), and of the names I recognize there you've got the rather more established crowd. I'm a bit more thinking on the "what's coming next" front.
I'd have thought, Fine, though looking in from England, what do I know? Players alive probably as good as ever there've been, allowing for inevitable differences between their life experience and those of players of the past. A commercial encrustation of St. Patrick's Day brou-haha, 'Celtic' wooze and bands that may be tempted to make noise to crowds rather than make music, but I dare say similar has happened in America at any rate in times gone by, and can be survived. (Greece has a high-profile trad and urban song tradition, and some of the commercial offshoots are dire, but I don't think this has ever stopped the good music being made.)
The feed from Irish trad into English trad, on the technical side alone, has been IMO a boon. When the postwar folk revival took off, the singers and guitarniks were there but the instrumental tradition took time to catch up, because so little of it had survived. So plenty of people cut their teeth on Irish trad, going on to put what they've learnt into the playing of English trad. Certainly in the North, where 'diddley' in its various forms is not at all alien.
mumhain abu -
There may be good players in Boston, true, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good music scene. I've been to sessions here. I don't go any more though, because they are elitist, unwelcoming and boring. They are very definitely "led" by one or two people, who start all the tunes, and there is a kind of unspoken acceptance that nobody else starts a tune unless they've got the approval of the leaders (all unspoken, of course, but very definitely there). By "unwelcoming", I don't mean they actively try to keep people out or anything, just they really don't do anything at all to make a newcomer feel welcome. They don't even say "hello" if someone they don't know shows up with an instrument. And then there's these awful silences between sets, while everyone looks expectantly at the leaders while they take a sip. There's no craic at all.
That's one issue. Another, separate issue is Berklee. Everyone here (yes, I'm here, but I'm getting out of here soon) wants to be the coolest, most innovative art-musician out there. Which, I guess, is okay if you're a metal guitarist or a composition major or something, but with Irish fiddle (or Scottish or Cape Breton) it just cannot work. There's a Berklee Fiddle Club and a (graded) "Celtic" Ensemble, and they're both just dire. They somehow manage to do arrangements of tunes in such a way that they are simultaneously pretentious *and* staid and boring.
There. Sorry to rant, but I've been here getting mad for six months now, and I had to vent in some way.
Well, I have probably gone and insulted a few people now, as I know there are a few Berklee kids that peruse these boards, but hey....
cross-post. we have a house session. Besides, they'll let you in with a legal guardian. I grew up in my grandfather's beer joint. There were no sessions, unfortunately, only jukebox music.
Joe - How do you know so much about sessions, if you can't go to them? When you're legal to drink, come to the Banshee, and then you can tell us all about it.
In the meantime, if you have the wheels, you might try going up to Gloucester on a Sunday night. I don't think you'll find that an unwelcoming session, although it is a fair trek away.
Keep looking Joe, some good sessions are out there, I hear there is a nice one at the Irish Cultural Center in Canton, and the Greenbriar has always had a reputation of being welcoming. Yeah, there are gigs in Boston that masquerade as sessions, and some stuffy people, but there is also a lot of good music and diversity. And like some have suggested, find some like minded people and start a house session.
Everyone is always lamenting the end of the good old days, and generational transitions are always taking place. From my perspective, ITM is just doing fine!
Dan, you've just made me feel very very old!! I thought you were talking about the music in Boston in general but no worries. Miscommunication it is...
Joe, That was quite the rant alright and it sounds like it's been brewing for a while. I think I remember you from the odd session a while back. I definitely remember saying hello and exchanging a few words; that you were over from England and going to Berkley, what are you having to drink etc... I'm sorry you found it unwelcoming. Here's the thing Joe, and it's been discussed on this board many times, many of those players have been playing together for a long time. A certain feel for the music is trying to be attained. That synergistic nyah or lift or what ever you want to call it is sought after. When it happens you can almost hear a 'click' and the music soars. This very rarely happens when you have a 'round robin, my turn to play a tune' It happens when the players are in sync, they know each other's tunes, styles of playing. I agree that to come in out of the cold and try to fit in to such a situation would be difficult. I wouldn't call it elitist or unwelcoming though, and I definitely would not call it boring.
If your listening to the tunes that are being played and how they are being played and you like the way they are being played, then really it's kind of up to you to learn the tunes and play them is such a way that works. The same goes for when you start the tunes you like to play. You want the others to be on the same page as yourself.
I think part of the problem the night you came in was that you didn't know many of the tunes and when you did start a tune or two either folks didn't really know them, or were not on the same page.
You're a young fellow Joe and I remember being young, I remember going into Hugh's Pub at the back of the Four Courts in Dublin on a Tuesday night many years ago because I heard there was a good session. I didn't know anyone there but I asked if I could sit in with a guitar. I was told that they kind of had a guitar player. I sat down anyway and pulled out a bodhran! The evening didn't go well. I couldn't help myself, picked up the guitar and started playing. The fiddle player started shouting chords at me! It got to the point where the piper told me not to play on a certain set. I left shortly after and I remember feeling very p*ssed off at those players and how they treated me. It took me several years but now looking back I still get embarassed at how I acted and that those players, while a little on the blunt end, were absolutely right. I had no business being there, I wasn't adding anything to the music and I was only there so I could bang out a few chords.
So it's not exactly the same situation as yours but there you have it.
At the end of the day yes, the session is led by a few players who generally guide the session in terms the tunes that are played but also how their played, (tempo style etc). For the other players that are in tune with tunes, as it were, then the makings of a good session are in order. It doesn't matter if that player comes in off the street, is visiting from Ballananty or is a long time friend. Now for other players who are not familar with the tunes or with the style of playing, then it is going to be very difficult for that person to fit in.
There you have it, I'm going to let the rest of your comments go because I've said enough and I'm tired!
Just over a year ago, when I came to America to check out Berklee and do my audition, I decided to go to New York for a couple of days, just because it's New York, and I'd never been before. I found out that there was a session going on the night I got there, so I went to it.
I ended up staying in NYC for three solid weeks, just because of the sessions. I was a total stranger there, the quality of playing there was way beyond mine, and I knew about one tune in six. But all this didn't matter in the least, because they made me feel welcome from the start. No, making someone feel welcome doesn't mean having a "round robin, my turn to play a tune" type of session, or even asking them to start a tune (by the way, I have not started a single tune while I've been in Boston, so I don't know what your references to being "on the same page" are about). Making someone feel welcome isn't a phenomenon specific to Irish sessions! It's the same whatever the social situation, and I shouldn't need to tell you how to do it.
Everything you mentioned about the Boston sessions also applied to the NYC sessions, and also, in fact, to the London sessions I started going to when I was 16. The players had been playing together for years before I stumbled across them, they were in pursuit of the "synergistic nyah" just as much as anyone else, and yes, I totally came in out of the cold on both occasions. The only difference between them and the Boston sessions, in fact, is that the Boston sessions do not seem to be welcoming to strangers. There's no excuse for it.
Even going by your description, mumhain abu, it does sound grim!
"Pub seisiún". It's a term that really does cover a multitude of sins! For my part, the best are those where:
- it's not the same faces week in, week out;
- there's a mixture of young and old, newcomers and familiar faces;
- you play with someone you've never played with before;
- you hear a tune you've never heard before;
- everyone gets to join at least half the time (i'll happily play beginners tunes with beginners with that's what it takes!);
- no second rows, no people sat behind one another;
- no more than a couple of sets repeated from the last time;
- there's a cheerful anarchy about the music, sets stutter and stumble;
- the odd song and slow air;
I could go on.
"A certain feel for the music is trying to be attained. That synergistic nyah or lift or what ever you want to call it is sought after." Sure when that happens it's grand but sacrificing the other stuff, trying to replicate the conditions when it last happen. Oh I know it goes on, I've witnessed it, but it's not trad as I understand it.
PJ, It's not grim at all. Many of the 'sins' you pointed out occur regularly. It's not the same faces every week, visitors come and go, new people show up and are very welcome. Tunes are shared, different people start different tunes at different times. For the most part there is a very distinctive sound to the music and it's lovely music. There are breaks between sets where conversations are stuck up, jokes told etc. The owners little Jack Russel will come out later in the evening and try to drink your pint! Even a song or two might creep in over the night.
I'm sorry that Joe felt unwelcome but to be honest it goes both ways. I've met Joe and tried to strike up a conversation. I could barely get two words out of him. I suppose I could have tried harder Other new faces have come in and great craic/tunes was had by all. Others still have come in sat in the middle of the bench without saying a word holding their instrument for 90% of the night while several other regulars or out of town visitors are standing in the back because there's no room. It depends on the night that's in it.
I should point out that while I show up on a fairly regular basis, I wouldn't be considered a 'leader' or 'core' or what ever the hell you want to call it.
Joe, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but I'm not going let someone rant on about unwelcome, elitist, boring Boston sessions without a response. From my experience, and I showed up fairly recently in town, I found the folks who regularly play there to be very friendly, inviting, welcoming and also brilliant musicians who play the hell out of some tunes.
PJ, no I am not from Ireland and haven't been able to make a trip there yet. I've never attended a session. There are none here. I figured, if I've never attended, how would I no the ettiquette, etc. that I've been bombarded with on this site? I've been told by many on this site that I don't know anything about anything.
So, on another note, Llig... it is a resource for lots of folks that are new to the tradition and are looking for good advice. The problem is learning to sort the good from the sarcastic/argumentative for argumentative sake's replies. My limited knowledge of sessions comes from what others here have told me.
So, after reading PJ's reply to my post, I feel really, really confused. His reply is how I used to think of a session; but my view became much more complicated after getting bombarded with every joe and jane's opinion on the matter.
Geesh, maybe I outta just keep doing my own thing and screw it! LOL
Fiddlechick7 - It's like any unfamilair situation really. Observe what is going on before you jump in feet first. And all sessions are slightly different, hence the need to do this even if you are a regular at your 'own' session.
On the contrary, misterpatrick, it's definitely NOT a band, it's a session with good music. I'm not sure why people seem to think that trying to play quality music ruins a session.
Fidchick, I'm sorry you are under resourced, but that's the way it is. Makes me wonder though, why hang around an internet forum for people who go to Irish diddley music sessions? I wouldn't hang around an internet forum for people who've been to the moon.
Georgi, to be candid the reason so many trad musicians shy aware from playing in pub seisiúns is that they've never been the place to go for "quality music". Now your definition of "quality" may of course differ hugely from mine, but by their nature pub seisiúns just aren't conducive to e.g. variation, shifting the pulse of tune, introducing a new tune into the middle of a set just because the fancy takes you. And if you can't do these things then you simply aren't play trad with good style let alone playing "quality music". Sure you can get great pleasure from playing with others, and to the casual listener and musician it might sound great and tight and a good time might be being had by all, but pub seisiúns really are no more than social events with communal music making as a binding agent.
'Unless, of course, I was planning a trip to the moon' - that's very profound (not joking). I'm signed up to a paddling website because I fancy buying a canoe. But I'd rather browse the threads, do the searches than ask the dopey, unnecessary questions.
And I'd much rather paddle my own canoe! (Ouch!)
PJ, I don't think pub sessions are necessarily antithetical to quality music. I'm aware that many pub sessions aren't conducive to it, but I've been to a good few sessions where the standard of quality is delightfully high. It doesn't always happen, but every so often the "social event" is populated with a good crew of excellent and sensitive musicians who connect very well together and play to a very high standard, with all the variations, new tunes, and pulse shifting you could want... Which, frankly, is LOTS of fun.
The session mumhain abu mentioned happens to be a place where that happens with some regularity.
I've heard they're a miserable bunch over there at the forum for people who've gone to the moon. Long boring discussions about space capsule etiquette, whether to read the landing checklist or just do it from memory, how some of the craters suck ("no atmosphere'), and looking down their noses at Michael Jackson's moonwalk ("all glitz, not traditional at all.")
I agree with you there Geordi. PJ is certainly right is as much as decent musicians have no guarantee on quality music at a session, no matter how regular they may be. There are many, many session murderers out there ready to ruin the night.
Grego thats started my weekend off with a laugh. If I knew how to do a big laughing face you'd get one.
A paddling website?- socks and sandles off count me in : )
Georgi, you've genuinely got me fascinated now (though I fear it may boil down to local differences in what we each mean by "quality music" or a "a very high standard"!). So if I understand you correctly you've participated in pub seisiúns where for example if fiddler takes it into his head, on the spur of the moment to introduce variation that he's he's never played before with the other musicians that they all some how follow him in that split second!
Not quite certain of the relevance of the Garrison Keilor quote, who's looking for perfection.
I'm not denying for one moment that one can't have great fun in seisiúns and that theres a big variation in the quality of music-making between one seisiún and another. So perhaps you're talking about playing to a "very high standard" for a pub seisiún. But no-one should be fooled into thing that what they're hearing is quality trad.
Bit generalist there PJ, maybe there is no chance of hearing quality where you are but that doesn't mean all sessions and made up of too many people scrapping away.
I know a few really good players who won't go anywhere near a pub session, and for them, it's a good decision.
But a really good session has a prerequisite that it's conducive to e.g. variation, shifting the pulse of tune, introducing a new tune into the middle of a set just because the fancy takes you, etc.
This means that people get to play ion their own sometimes, at least for a couple of times through. Not arranged of course, just a common knowledge that listening is more as important and as much fun as playing.
I was out the other week at a new session venue with a great acoustic. It was busy earlier, but we had the last hour almost to ourselves. We played slow airs. We played rattling sets where every detail was jumping out at you.
A good session certainly can be music of the highest order. Higher than a paid gig certainly, and one of the reasons is you can all sit facing each other.
If your standard of "quality" music is "perfect unison" combined with "spontaneous unique and original variation", then perhaps not. But I'd challenge you to find that scenario happen anywhere (even in the duets/trios at the fleadh, where varitions are usually planned out), so I think that's an unreasonable measure of quality.
Frankly, I'm satisfied to define quality as "tight rhythm with a nice lift, and tunes/versions/variations that fit cleanly together"--and that we've certainly had on occasion. After playing with people year after year, one gets a pretty good sense for how to play well with them, and it's not unusual to both hit the same variation in a tune, whether you're in a pub, at home, or in a church (though it's often a variation that you've heard/played before). Those moments don't last the entire session, but they can last long enough.
Just because we happen to be playing in a pub doesn't preclude our ability to play well together, especially if the other people in the session are sensitive enough... and just because we happen to know each other's music well doesn't make it a "band" instead of a session.
The Keillor quote was just making the point that perfection isn't everything, and shouldn't be the low-bar for enjoyment of music (or even, perhaps the low bar for calling it "quality").
Fiddlechick7, P.J. Doherty has some good advice on how to start a local session where you live. His suggestions are similar to how the local sessions got started here fifteen years ago.
A local musician who had gone to some Irish music festivals wanted to start a session here. She found a place (a seafood restaurant) which was willing to try hosting the session and put flyers advertising the session in local music stores and various other places. I saw one of the flyers and came to the session.
It was an uphill struggle at first because there was no tradition of Irish Sessions here but we persisted and have now managed to keep it going for fifteen years.
I guess Arkansas must be in a really out of the way part of the United States because we so rarely have visitors from out-of-state.
In addition, the two nearest Comhaltas branches are out of state in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma (three hundred miles) and St. Louis, Missouri (three hundred fifty miles).
As for being "severely under resourced" because I consider this web site to be a resource and not getting out into the real world.....
I think of The Session as a useful place to learn how other musicians in other countries who like to play this particular genre of folk music think about and view this music whether or not they agree with my ideas or opinions.
If you are unable to travel to music festivals or even to sessions in other states, you can at least use this web site to communicate with other musicians who like to play this music. Not all of us are lucky enough to have a local session we can participate in or to have a session close enough to drive to.
As for myself, until someone started an Irish Session here in 1995, I didn't even know there such things as Irish music sessions. All I had was a copy of O'Neill's and I would occasionally try to play some of the tunes in it at home by myself on my piano. I didn't know there other people living here in Arkansas who liked to play Irish music until a certain person put flyers advertising an Irish Session in local music stores and other places.
Once I started participating regularly in the local Irish Sessions and learned that there were similar sessions in other states, I began traveling to other states and sitting in at Irish sessions elsewhere so I had a basis for comparison and contrast to the local sessions here in Arkansas. Also, I am not the only local musician from the local sessions who has gone to festivals and sat in at sessions in other states. Many of the other regulars at our local sessions have done the same thing.
However, I still consider this web site to be a resource and I still like to read the discussions and participate in them.
Of course my standard of quality trad is something like "spontaneous unique and original variation", I'm only surprised that it doesn't seem to be yours. Commonplace, easily achieved, no. But it wouldn't be "music of the highest order" if it was.
Surely we can agree that the highest form of trad is the solo performer, the piper or fiddler in the kitchen or the back room of a pub playing while his children dance. And the most sought after quality of the solo musician is the ability to vary the tune with each playing. The most loved private recordings, those that pass around the scene are of that nature, whether it be Paddy Fahy, Lucy Farr, Seamus Creagh, Denis Murphy, O'Keefe, Ennis, Clancy, Eddie Kelly, Aggie Whyte or Johnny O'Leary, everyone else in the room is hushed while the musician goes six, eight, ten times, twelve times round a tune. Different each time, sometimes a prepared variation, sometimes evidently spontaneous. I have a spectacular "crash and burn" from Clancy, and dozens of saves where he seems to be up a blind alley.
For me, and many that I know, every step away from the"man in the room" is a dilution. Duets, trios, Grúpaí Ceol, bands, seisiúns all still trad but each a step further from the essence, and in doing so, increasing limitations to the quality that can be achieved. They all have their place, great fun can be had and the music may be fine, I'll even concede it can be high quality within its context e.g. who would deny the Tulla in full flight? But trad of the "highest order"? No.
Lads, having played in what I guess must be more than 4,000 pub seisiúns over the years, all over Ireland, Scotland (including Lerwick and Edinburgh), England, Wales, the States (including New York, Philly, Chicago and Boston), various places in Europe and the Far East, though not yet Australasia, there's a fair chance I've got a pretty good sense of what even the best seisiúns are capable of. And in what I guess, is my local pub seisiún some of the musicians I've played with for more than thirty years so I'm very familiar with the "mind reading" that develops.
Bogman, if you think I'm talking about musicians scrapping away you're missing the point. With over a dozen regular pub seisiúns (where I doubt a fortnight would go by without me bumping into musicians you likely have on your shelves) within a 30 minute drive do you really think I want for a good seisiún?
Sorry lads if a bit of "I'm an expert, so I'm right and you're wrong" crept in there at the end but I thought I was being taught to suck eggs! At the end of the day, it's only my sense of the thing.
PJ, I like playing on my tod. And it's true, this is where the best of the spontaneous variation lies. But for me, I like better the communication of playing with your chums. You might think my playing is better when I'm on my tod in my kitchen, and under your criteria, you'd be right. But the informal (though I admit, deeply flawed and rarely perfect) atmosphere of a nice cosy quiet pub with nobody bothering you is a real joy. A joy that I just can't seem to muster in myself when I'm on my own.
fauxcelt, I'm sorry for you too that you are under resourced.
PJ, I don't want to fall out with you here. I agree with most of what you write, and that's a rare thing here at the .org. I know perfectly well there will be good sessions where you are. I think Llig has put it well, there are different ways to enjoy trad.
Wasn't aware there was a risk of anyone falling out!
As to "different ways to enjoy trad" - absolutely. For my part I'm far from being "pure drop". Love Kila, think Shooglenifty have done some interesting things (though less so since Iain MacLeod left), can't get excited over most of the Irish bands who are still ploughing the Dé Danann/Planxty/Bothy Band furrow, like the little I've heard from Ross Ainslie and Jarlath Henderson, hope Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh's experimental work isn't a blind alley, think McGoldrick's written some lasting tunes and done some interesting work with tabla players, hope Niall Vallely and Guidewires mature into something tangible, would still put the Paddy Glackin and Jolyon Jackson electronica collaboration "Hidden Ground" in my top ten trad LPs list.
My sense though, is that far too many lurkers and posters have little sense of trad outside of CDs, gigs and pub seisiúns which for me is where the real riches lie.
Either we have cross-posted, or llig is in denial about his 'tod playing' habit.....or perhaps my ignorance of what a 'tod' is has been seen as a sign that I have little sense of trad. One never knows....
Thanks for the link, llig! I thought it was a typo or something. This ignorant yankee doodle dandy humbly apologizes! I would be very sad if the Mustard Board was my only source of musical information, but I learn something new from it every day!
What I don't understand about PJ's claims is that he seems to think pub sessions are pretty far down the lane from where the best traditional music happens, yet he's been to 4,000 of them. That's 3 pub sessions a week, week in, week out, for 25 years.
So why spend so much time at something that "dilutes" your music?
My own experience (which is undoubtedly worthless in such esteemed company), is that my most playful, interesting, spontaneous, original, creative variations and flights of traditional fancy occur in the flow of a good session. The tune is there, carried by 2 or 3 other players. Everyone is listening to every nuance, nothing is missed. Some lubrication is orally applied. And out come the most wondrous musical things! Not to impress anyone (in fact, that intent would just hamper the whole adventure), and not out of boredom, either. Just a sense of play.
I'm a bit of a loner, and I've spent as many hours playing tunes alone as PJ apparently has playing in pubs. But the energy and synergy of a cozy, attentive session is where the magic most often strikes. Doesn't matter at all whether it's in a pub or a kitchen or a cabin in the mountains. But I most often run into other traditional Irish musicians in pubs....
Over 4,000 pub seisiúns - easy to reach if one has being sitting in them for over forty years, and over the summer months might easily go to three of four or week, let alone during the fleadhs, feativals and summer schools (so that's perhaps half a dozen events in a year running over the best part of a week) where two to three a day would be the norm.
No seems about it, for me and many other trad musicians, pub seisiún are "pretty far down the lane from where the best traditional music happens". It's not a big secret.
I don't recall ever arguing that they ""dilute" your music" though frankly it's difficult to get the sense of what you're trying to say here. But surely one can't argue that when the highest expression of trad is the solo musician playing in a quiet room, a pub seisiún makes it impossible to play trad of the "highest order" for the simple reason that you're playing with other people.
I'm not certain I'd argue it, but I've heard many claim that if you want to be a good trad musician don't ever play in pub seisiúns. So perhaps doing so does "dilute" your music".
Why do I play in pub seisiúns? Because they're social events with people that share an interest and typically sensibilities. A way to stay in contact with friends and acquaintances, many of whom I've met through the music. They're an easy way to met new musicians, hear new tunes. Playing with others in a pub is good fun, and there's a pleasure to be had in shared music making in any form, who can deny that? But they've never really been about music making, that's what the back room or the kitchen are for.
If you feel the "magic most often strikes" in pub seisiúns then good luck to you, I have no quarrel with that. I'll only say that you don't know what you're missing out on.
Sorry the last sentence of the penultimate para should read "they've never really been about quality music making". Wouldn't be a seisiún at all if there was no music!
"On one's tod" is such a common expression over here, it's hard to think that people elsewhere may not know what it means ... "separated by a common language", eh?
Meanwhile, I agree with you, PJ. Just about entirely. Hard to put across though, I would say ...
@ PJ "I'm not certain I'd argue it, but I've heard many claim that if you want to be a good trad musician don't ever play in pub seisiúns.",
I suppose I can see that point ,but your right, sessions are a mix of music, socialising and craic.
I think whether for good or bad the trad music of Irelands home has been moving to pub sessions since the 1950's.
'Of course my standard of quality trad is something like "spontaneous unique and original variation", I'm only surprised that it doesn't seem to be yours. '
You ignored "perfect unison", which, judging by your earlier, somewhat snarky, comment about everybody around the table playing exactly the same notes, was the kicker for you. Like I said, spontaneous and orignal variation is nice, but if you demand perfect unison, you've gone to far. I'm perfectly happy with a spontaneous and original variation that doesn't clash with the other folks.
As for the "highest order of music", I'm not sure you'll find complete consensus on it being "one person in a kitchen". I know plenty of folks who think that ceili bands are the highest order (not sure I really agree, but whatever).
Obviously, for me, it depends on who's playing. I'm perfectly happy to say that Noel Hill AND Tony MacMahon are right up there with any solo performer I can think of.
PJ, your hackles are showing. I didn't question *how* you managed so many hours in pub sessions, only *why* you would if you think doing so is at loggerheads with playing music of the "highest quality."
To me, if your sense of this music at "the highest quality" hinges completely on playing it by yourself, then you might be the one missing out on being able to play at your best despite the apparently crippling effect of your friends playing with you at the same time.
As I said in my post above, I've spent countless hours (and if we're really keeping score as you persist in doing) over 30 years (so only a decade less than you at this particular music) playing solo. Sure, oftentimes some good, spontaneous, imaginative music comes out of that experience. But so it does in the company of other musicians, too, even when they're (shock and horror) playing along. If your music is hamstrung by the mere presence of other musicians, or the pub setting, I don't understand what the problem is. Can't you play what you want, within the sounds of a cozy session? Or do you feel the risk of crashing and burning is too great? I'm at a loss to understand why a session inhibits your originality, spontaneity, and the other features you ascribe to for this music to be of the "highest quality." Perhaps my own sessions aren't that limiting, I dunno.
Interestingly, I've listened in on some festival sessions where players the likes of Paul O'Shaughnessey, Mike and Mary Rafferty, Kevin Crawford, Mick Moloney, Ciilian Vallely, Tom Doorley, and others were crowing about how top flight the music was *because* they were getting an all-too-rare chance to play together. Not just the craic, but the music itself. Playing off other musicians' ideas can be so much more than playing within the horizons of your own imagination, especially when everyone is listening closely, in the moment, and responsive.
FWIW, I realize that many people slog through dire pub sessions where the music is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and the tunes either plod or rocket along with no life or spontaneity. I'm well aware of the phenomenon of "session style"--tunes eroded down to the bare husks of their potential by the blunt force of a session that plays too loud or doesn't listen or tolerates only notes played in strict unison. But I've never understood why good musicians would continue to attend such sessions, regardless of how good the craic is (how good can it be under such duress?). The choices are clear--either find a better session, or guide *that* session into more musical waters. Or, I suppose, sit at home and play in your kitchen to the cat and lament all the fools who don't "get it" because they're off making brilliant music down at the pub....
I know, I know. There's the wondrous Irish history (or is it a mythology?) of the solo player sprinkled with faerie dust (or uisce beatha) playing out of his gourd and transcending his mortal coil with the magic that come out. Grand. I don't have a problem with that.
But to insist that this is the *only* way music of the "highest order" can be created comes across to me as dogmatic and neglectful of the experience of many other musicians.
This, coming from someone who's never met me or heard me play, is just plain silly and insulting:
"If you feel the "magic most often strikes" in pub seisiúns then good luck to you, I have no quarrel with that. I'll only say that you don't know what you're missing out on."
PJ, if this is the attitude your bring to your music and your teaching, I'm beginning to see why your personal gold standard would be a solo performance instead of the synergy of a group.
...besides, don't most of us spend lots of time exploring tunes on our own, being spontaneous, imaginative, creative with the music? And then letting that experience loose within a session? It's not an either/or situation--one experience complements the other.
Will, remember, three or more posts in a row without anyone else posting is a sign that you probably have better things to do! Go have a tune 'on your tod.'
Well, what to say? One could I suppose attempt to address your claims and comments line by line but my sense is that our experiences of trad are so different that there's no common ground to work with. So all those years, all those pub seisiúns, and I've always been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Always just missed trad of the highest quality. And what my grandfather calls "the one true thing" in trad, that it's all about the solo musician, wrong as well.
So few people born to trad, or who came to it as children post here. I've often wondered why. Certainly it's not that they don't use the internet to discuss trad, emails and mp3s get passed around all the time. I think I have the sense of it now.
PJ, I was "born to trad, or who came to it as children" though I don't blab about it or use it to try and make my opinions weigh more than those of others. I do not agree with you on this. Just because you, your father, your grandad etc think solo playing is the highest form of trad does not mean it is for everyone.
When it comes to it, perceived knowledge or experience or location mean nothing till you've sat down with someone and had a tune. Then you find out if you've made a tit of yourself or not. Despite all your claims I have to say Miss L comes across with a much more balanced view of traditional music than yourself.
So is it just me, or is PJ being presumptuous and snarky when he posts things like: "So few people born to trad, or who came to it as children post here. I've often wondered why....I have the sense of it now."
Heh, I first came to this music as a kid. But since I'm a Yank, I suppose that doesn't count in some circles. Apparently, us mustard boarders aren't steeped enough in the peat smoke to have a feckin clue....
I started to get confused reading this thread, then I realised that "PJ" had changed his moniker to "2302" in the middle of the discussion. In case there are any further changes the relevant membership number for reference is 58949.
'Cause he didn't like his assertions being questioned, even fairly mildly. 'Cause he liked to dish it out but didn't want to take elsewise on board.....
FWIW, I suspect traditional Irish music is doing just fine, in part because so many of its players are less concerned about making "music of the highest order" and are more interested instead in simply playing the tunes to the best of their abilities amongst friends and neighbors. Thank goodness this music doesn't demand any more than that to be sublime.
I'm at one of those moments where I don't know what's going on. I find that I almost always agree with Miss L. But I thought what PJ was saying made sense. And I certainly didn't see anything arrogant or offensive in it.
ethical blend, I agree, sometimes I don't see why certain discussions get so heated. The main participants obviously see issues that I am missing. I think it is because the internet gives us only a fraction of the information that would be exchanged in a real conversation, and we fill in the rest ourselves. An internet conversation is to a real conversation as the sheet music of a tune, is to the hearing of the tune itself.
If he has then that's a shame but it would confirm this for me...
"Why d'he do that?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: How's ITM doing?
'Cause he didn't like his assertions being questioned, even fairly mildly. 'Cause he liked to dish it out but didn't want to take elsewise on board.....
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Miss Lonelyhearts"
Oh, come on, cut the guy some slack. Seems to me he was trying to describe something that's hard to describe, and was getting increasingly frustrated. If you re-read all of PJ's posts, deliberately taking a positive view rather than a negative one, you'll see that, at the very least, it's *possible* to interpret them as attempting to explain, rather than attack.
If you've been around the trad scene for a long time, as I know you have, bogman, you'll have been privileged, as I have, thankfully, to have been present in some very special kitchens on some very special nights. That particular *moment* when it clicks for ... well, whoever, actually, is worth all the hours in all the pub sessions one can ever go to. Isn't that what PJ was trying to describe? Or did I miss something?
I don't think anyone has been particularly hard on him. If anyone disagrees with his taste or opinions then it's always because they don't have his experience, upbringing, bla, bla. Not only are you questioning ME but my grandfather too! Eh? Give me a break. Anyway, I
And at the other end of the scale I was drawing encouragement from his "Two people in a kitchen having fun stumbling through the Connaughtman's Rambles is all you need to start."
Hmm, got cut off there (maybe a good thing) but here's the last line ..........Anyway, I've got tunes to go to.... unfortunately they will be in a pub so there will be no quality but hey ho....
Hmmm ... I didn't think the grandfather/heritage thing was the best idea, either. But I still think it came from frustration at not getting a point across. Hence my suggestion of cutting some slack. In other words, I haven't been here long, but I know that, already, *I've* said things stronger than I meant. I bet you have too, bogman. And maybe even you, Miss L. When I do, do I want some slack cut? Yes please. So, when I remember , I'm going to cut some for others.
And I still think the basic point, about pub sessions not being totally where it's at, is valid. Fun, mind ...
Since PJ started posting, I thought we call cut him slack repeatedly. He had some very good insights and wonderful experience that added to the forum. But somewhere along the line he started insinuating then saying outright that his way was the only way. (He waded into a thread on analyzing the music just to point out how "trite" and off-the-mark my posts were.) That culminated here. Look at his posts on this thread--he's very fond of telling us this: "But surely one can't argue that when the highest expression of trad is the solo musician playing in a quiet room...."
Sorry, but surely we *can* challenge this assumption, and several of us did, with intelligence, insight, and a in good faith. But PJ couldn't handle having his premise questioned. When we did, he snarked back that we were missing out on the "one true thing," and obviously not "born to the tradition." That's self-righteous and narrow minded.
If PJ's posts weren't so articulate, I'd wonder if Will Evans (aka jig, ionannas, tradpish, whatever) hadn't snuck back on board.... Same righteous attitude.
P.S. Maybe it makes a difference that I've heard Georgi play, and I know that he has no trouble being spontaneous, original, blah, blah, blah to the highest order, "despite" [sarcasm] being in a pub session.
Rather than explain to us why playing solo is the "only" way to soar with this music, PJ just repeated his premise, as though we should all simply accept his words of wisdom. And then he left in a huff. Ta ta.
This forum is a community of interest--we're here because we love this music. But communities are stronger for their diversity, their differences of experience and opinion. All it takes to belong is a willingess to discuss those differences in good faith and debate them civilly (without asserting that yours is the *only* right way and insulting anyone who disagrees with you).
I'm not anywhere near at the level of most of the contributors on this thread (and I've heard most of them play, either on a recording or real life), but I find I'm better at coming up with spontaneous variations at a session or playing with another musician or two or five than I do sitting in my living room. I've spent hundreds of hours playing alone and while I enjoy it, I don't get the buzz I get at a good session. And sessions generally happen in pubs, at least in this part of the world.
That said, I kinda get part of PJ's argument. There is this belief that trad music, in its most sublime form, is the solo piper or fiddler. It's true that you can hear subtlety and variation from a solo player in quite a different way than from a group, and it's also the case that the solo pipes only accompanied by drones and regs sound really cool. But you can also get sublime music at a session. You can get really crap music at a session as well, but that's not a reason to write off sessions.
Yep, I agree that solo playing can be of the "highest order," and I said so to PJ in previous posts. I'm simply suggesting that it's not the *only* way.
Oh well, there you go. I was just going by this thread - not other threads. And I didn't read PJ's posts as saying that "his way was the only way". It just came over to me as saying that sessions aren't the be-all and end-all. Oh, and that those magical moments when a lone musician is really 'on song' are something else. I'd struggle to read much more into them, to be honest ... but, if you're determined to be offended, then I guess you will be.
To be clear, all I'm trying to argue for is a bit of tolerance. Nothing more.
EB, it takes a lot more than that for me to be offended. I just didn't buy into PJ's absolutism. Not sure why that's hard to see in his posts. I thought he was saying what he meant, not beating around the bush. And when Georgi and I and a few others gave our experience of sublime sessions, PJ said we were missing out and not born into the tradition.
Nobody "ran him off" here. We just pointed out his growing snarkiness. It was his choice to leave.
In short, it was PJ who was being intolerant. Demeaning people whose experience of this music includes his sense of kitchen solo music *and* sublime playing in sessions.
I don't feel "under-resourced" despite what llig leahcim says or seems to think.
I didn't discover this web site until 2004--after I had been playing piano at the local sessions off and on for nine years. This was after myself and some of the other musicians who participate regularly in the local sessions had sat in and played at sessions and music festivals in many other states. Myself and the other musicians who had traveled to festivals where they offered classes brought the new ideas back to our local sessions. If we liked the new ideas and different ways of playing, we began using them at the local sessions. I don't think any of the local musicians has ever been to Scotland but I do know some of them have gone to music festivals in Ireland. Also, there have been several occasions when musicians from either Ireland or Scotland came here to perform and, after the performance, they stayed around for a few hours to play music with myself and some of the other regulars from the local sessions.
This is why I am puzzled by llig leahcim's attitude that I am "under-resourced" because I certainly don't feel that way.
I do enjoy reading other people's comments and opinions about this music whether or not they agree or disagree with me. When I have sat in and participated in other sessions out of state, there usually isn't much time or opportunity to talk about this music because we are too busy enjoying ourselves by playing it. I don't go to sessions to talk about music--I go to sessions to play music instead. Thanks to this web site, there is a place where I can discuss one of my favorite musical subjects when I am unable to actually play it.
Heh, this forum *is* an excellent resource for blather, though I don't feel my local music scene is under-resourced in that, either....
fauxcelt, you have to bear in mind that Michael has daily (if he so chooses) access to a fair number of brilliant musicians playing this music. Lots of folks here are wallowing in sessions and players in their home communities. You in Arkansas and me in Montana can't help but be under-resourced by comparison.
"Under resourced" is, of course, relative. PJ reckons Will and I are under resourced and maybe he's right. Yeah, so I can go out and play with really good players (even ones that PJ specifically named and admired) but I don't live in Ireland.
However, relative that "under resourced" is, I think the basic benchmark stands. If you think this website is a musical resource, you are under resourced. Don't be puzzled by it, it's just an arbitary benchmark. If you value the musical content of this website as a resource, then in my opinion you are lacking in musical resources - not least because there is no actual music on theis website at all.
Oh, I'm definitely under-resourced. I'd be a lot better player if I lived somewhere with more people playing this music, more chance to play with mighty musicians, etc.
I was lucky to get good start from several mentors (well known and widely respected), so that helped a lot. That and decades of listening and taking advantage of every chance to sit in with visiting musicians, and playing the tunes thousands of times, alone in my kitchen or off the tiles in the loo.
Given that, I agree with Michael. At best, this site's musical contribution is that it's a library for abc and staff notation. Perhaps it's even more useful as a relay station pointing some of us to audio and video clips (YouTube, clips emailed among members, etc.) that we would not have heard otherwise. But that's a far cry from playing with other people face to face. Particularly playing with really brilliant, experienced musicians in person.
The midis are definitely not a vital resource & that is the only aural source directly on this site. Though the discussions, email access & links to outside aural sources {I miss SoundLantern} are what comprise the interconnections. In other words ~ if the internet (as a whole) provides musical resources & thesession.org does not exist in a vacum (hm-m-mm) ergo we may only be a few keystrokes & a mouse click away from something musical.
Or not.
Y'know, even as under-resourced as I am here in Ballybumfeckit Montana, and as much as I enjoy the occasional clip off the internet, I hope I never feel that a mouse click is what I need to access something musical.
There's a lot to be said for a head full of tunes and a decent fiddle (not to mention some good friends to play tunes with).
It's a basic concept. If you think that anonymous bletherers, anonymously notated tunes and a data base of long dead sessions is a resource then you are under resourced. It's not rocket science
I don't see how the first part of the recent Polka discussion (before the squabbling started), for example, can't be regarded as a resource. A number of people with a range of experience commented on a number of youtube clips.
I was recently puzzled about mazurka rhythms and found some good discussions here. If I have time with people who play tunes I would rather ask them to go over a something for me rather than start some slightly nerdy conversation about the differencecs between a mazurka and a varsovienne.
Useless? Usefulness? etc. The concepts are relative. You could argue that music is useless. You can go from one extreme where the only useful things to do are eat, sleep and procreate, to the other extreme where anything humans do is useful because it keeps you occupied, even doing nothing, because you need to rest.
I personally wouldn't class music as useful. Except maybe if it's your job, or a way of getting girls. But, from experience, though I would describe music as useful at getting girls, it was a useless job. The pay's crap ....... (But now I have a girl, and a decent job, the music has served it's purpose and is now gloriously useless. hurrah.)
"If you have time with people who play tunes, then you can stop regarding this place as a resource." (llig) Sorry, don't understand.
If 'resource' is used in the sense "a means of supply" and someone has use for a supply of information I don't see why the link between the tunes and the recordings databases cannot be a resource. And if you want a supply of opinion there is usually no shortage of that.
Music IS useful, no matter whether it be ITM, or any other TM.
It just occurred to me that I missed our 34th anniversary earlier this month - 34 years and a few days ago a young lady sat opposite me on a tube train, the pair of us more or less identically dressed although she may have been wearing a bra ( I certainly wasn't ), but I was carrying a recognizable traditional music instrument; we exchanged a sentence, and half-an-hour later she walked into the folk music club I was heading for; and the rest is history. Music makes contacts and communications in all sorts of ways.
34 years later we play and sing about 6 times a month in various different settings, ITM, Sacred Harp, and informal acoustic sessions..
Oh, and our daughter plays guitar, ukulele, and spoons, and performs at open mike evenings and these informal sessions too - DNA will out. ( Or was it nurture ? )
And thesession.org can be resource of parenting tips too:
Children only need one spoon too eat with. Give them two and you risk infecting your poor innocent little darling with the desire to be a leach on the normal society of music makers.
Despite all of the above comments, I still don't feel "under-resourced" or "over-resourced" because I use this web site as one of my many musical resources.
Besides the five sessions which are held here every month, there are other sessions in the states surrounding Arkansas which I can drive to if I have the time and the money (as I have done in the past).
Then there is the North Texas Irish Festival in Dallas and the Tionol in St. Louis, Missouri every year--both of which I can easily attend if I have the time and the money.
Then there are the other musicians from the local sessions who have gone to various music festivals and music schools in the eastern United States and in Ireland. They all brought new musical ideas back with them and shared them with me and the rest of the musicians at the local sessions.
If I could, I would like to spend more of my time actually playing music with other musicians but that isn't always possible so sometimes I just have to settle for discussing music on a web site on the Internet.
I am lucky enough to live in a place where I can play music almost every day if I want to. It isn't always Irish or Scottish music, but it is music which I enjoy playing and I like the people whom I get to play music with.
I don't listen to the midis because there are so many recordings I can listen to and then there are the bands who come through here and perform.
So should I feel sorry for myself and the other local musicians just because I happen to live in someplace besides Edinburgh or some other place with lots of brilliant musicians who know this music inside out?
No I Don't Think So.
It is a silly, ridiculous, pitiful, and pathetic attitude to wallow in self-pity just because you don't have access to as much resources as some of the other members of this web site. You should just do the best that you can and try to enjoy playing music at your local sessions.
When I was younger, I was lucky enough to have some really good mentors who used to play professionally but were semi-retired by the time I met them and got to play music with them. No, they didn't play Irish music but none of these people would have been hired to work as sidemen/backup musicians to famous singers and entertainers if they were incompetent and didn't know what they were doing.
"It is a silly, ridiculous, pitiful, and pathetic attitude to wallow in self-pity just because you don't have access to as much resources as some of the other members of this web site."
Hmmm. I don't see anyone here doing that. It's more the opposite: people who have abundant local resources coming onto this forum to tell others how unfortunate we are. Missing out on the generosity of spirit that can be such a feature of this tradition.
Aw come off it. I said I was sorry that you're under resourced. How feckin generous do you want me to be? I suppose you'd rather I sat typing top tips for Irish music for you all feckin day ... Oh .... hang on a minute .....
Mikey, I didn't mean *you.* I meant certain other "contributors" to this forum, and this thread in particular. LOL, we all know that behind your cynical, curmudgeonly grimace beats an idealist, hopelessly hopeful, generous heart.
At it's best, the mustard board is a resource for *thinking* about this music. But that's not the music.
This is like one of those Western movie barroom brawls. Fauxcelt throws a punch at llig ... llig tries to break a chair over Fauxcelt's head but misses and hits Lonelyhearts instead ... Lonelyhearts responds ... Yeehaw!
My favorite Marceau quote is from Silent Movie, where he is the only character who actually speaks a word ("No!" When asked if he wants to be in a silent movie).
Thank you David_h, I do try to get out and play music as much and as often as I can.
Miss Lonelyhearts, when I mentioned wallowing in self-pity, I wasn't referring to or thinking of myself. I was thinking of fools who allow themselves to be defeated and give up with the first setback they encounter or their first failure instead of being persistent and continuing to try again and again until they succeed.
Also, I wasn't trying to make you or anyone else feel unfortunate about a lack of abundant local musical resources.
Leoj, since I just got a haircut, I might temporarily have a vague resemblance to Curly (of Three Stooges infamy) but I know I am not as funny (or as crazy).
Llig leahcim, may I suggest that we agree to disagree on whether or not I am "under-resourced" or "over-resourced" since it seems we will probably never agree about this.
Also, I have spent many hours enjoying (and laughing at) both the Marx Brothers and Laurel & Hardy. I have never been able to decide which Marx Brothers movie or which Laurel & Hardy movie is my favorite.
You're not as funny as the three stooges? Don't be a fool and allow yourself to be defeated and give up with the first setback. Come on now, I know we can't all be Stan Laurels, but the three stooges? There are benchmarks ... and there are hopeless failures.
I may not be as funny as the Three Stooges or the Marx Brothers or Laurel & Hardy but I thought your comment was funny Llig Leahcim.
And, no, as I have said before, I didn't allow myself to wallow in self-pity and give up in defeat when someones told me that I couldn't perform with them but I was welcome to sit in the audience and listen to them perform. Instead, I persistently kept looking until I found other musicians who thought I was good enough to play music with them. I kept searching for other opportunities to play music until I found them.
Now that I think about it, I never found Laurel & Hardy all that funny as a kid. The Marx Brothers, hilarious!
Our parents made a great show of pretending that the Three Stooges were bad for us (just like the Beezer comic) and so we all enjoyed them all the more. Probably the same as with South Park for kids today.
How's ITM doing?
How's ITM doing?
Is it alive and kicking or in crisis?
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: How's ITM doing?
All of the above...
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: How's ITM doing?
Maybe it's in an intergenerational transition.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Ceolachan-
How so?
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: How's ITM doing?
It's in re-session
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: How's ITM doing?
It's not doing that well where I am. The session stalwarts are
mostly well into their 50s. I can think of two strong young fiddle
players and fluter around the place but they don't show up that
often.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Hup
Re: How's ITM doing?
I spoke with him yesterday as a matter of fact. He's doing quite well. I teased him about being so well known these days from Tokyo to Tralee and every place in between, considering his rather humble beginnings. He laughed and said "if you hang around long enough with a cheerful attitude, sooner or latter people will just have to take you in."
I also asked if it concerned him that some folks are trying to change or tinker with his identity.
He said no "it's only when people stop paying attention that you have to worry - besides, some change is inevitable. It's called growth."
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: How's ITM doing?
"...mostly well into their 50s."
Oh the humanity! Shock and horror! Get those old geezers off to a home straight away, before they soil their clothes, drool on the table, or go forbid start comparing catheter bags to see whose is larger!
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
Ha! Ha! I am one of them too, Will. It just seems to me that a new
generation is not on the way through. Of course, I didn't even
even start playing ITM until I turned 50. So perhaps the next
generation doesn't yet know who they are.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Hup
Re: How's ITM doing?
they're probably think this is "ITM":
http://www.highlandercelticrockbandaustralia.com/
pretty popular.
I think they're playing in a venue near you, hup; so there you go, you can update!
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
It's my impression that not many people around Boston are really interested in the old folks, especially the young musicians. There's a big trend towards Scottish and Cape Breton influence, or a classical/jazz/bluegrass influence from Berklee. There's a sort of specific, very modern "Boston" sound, you know, and I do feel pretty "outside" being mostly influenced by old Irish players. Maybe it's innovation but by and large it does feel like dilution.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Danjo
Re: How's ITM doing?
Yeah. In Boston it reeeaallly ain't doing well.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Joe CSS
Re: How's ITM doing?
Because it's alive
Living in crisis
Open to interpretation
Open to misuse
Duel in personality
Yet whole
Schrödinger's cat
In Pavlov's dog
Loving dichotomy
Longing for a cut of tea
Yet whole
Quintessentially human
Under a silly abreviation
Entertaining
Silly
Thoughts
In
Overblown
Nonsense
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
ITM! Does anyone outside of this board actually call it that. It's not as if anyone uses S(cottish)TM or E(nglish)TM, or do they? Surely the vast majority of musicians call it "trad". Any reason why we couldn't do the same? Even "Irish trad" if one really needs to distinguish it from any other nationality's ethnic music.
It's purely anecdotal, but on what I see and hear in my little corner of the country and on the summer school - fleadh circuit, I'd say trad's doing grand, certainly in terms of the number of musicians. Most would agree there's more playing now than ever before.
It's certainly a living tradition as evidenced by the resurgence of interest in céilí bands and sean-nós dance over the last ten years or so, hopefully slow air playing will have its turn in the sun soon. The standard of musicianship seems to me to grow each year with younger musicians having better chops than in my day while still having an interest in older tunes and styles of playing (the band Téada perhaps being the most visible example of this). I'd say there are less "real" pub seisiúns, as opposed to gig type seisiúns, certainly outside of the festivals, but there's more music-making going on in homes and the likes of community Rambling Houses.
All that said, it's a minority interest, even in Ireland, always has been and always will be.
Surprised and sorry to hear about Boston. I haven't been over since the '90 but I've played many a seisiún in Southie. Isn't there still an active Comhaltas branch and doesn't Séamus Connolly do things out of Boston College?
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
True what you say PJ, I never heard it referred to as "ITM" till I came on here. Always either "trad" or simply "the music".
As for how it's doing, it's stronger than ever. In Ireland anyway. The standard of musicianship has shot up over the last couple of decades too.
It does seem to have weakened in the last 10 years in Ennis alright. The sessions all became gigs, then the pubs decided not to pay for music anymore. Now there are only a couple of places where you'll still find a session.
Ebb and flow. It'll pick up again. There is a younger generation of very strong players. The music isn't going anywhere.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by tradshark
Re: How's ITM doing?
I've never ever ever used that horrid abreviation. And I've never ever heard anybody ever actually say it.
Maybe we could petition Jeremy to make one of those automatic text replacement things, like the one he has for Seejithorpe, to automatically replace the dreaded thing with "traditional Irish music". Personally, I'm of the view that the thing is much much worse than swearing.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
It's on the wane a bit here in Manchester, if you're judging it by the numbers in sessions a year ago and the number in sessions now.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by I ♥ Dow
Re: How's ITM doing?
What's a Seejithorpe? I suspect I'm missing an in-joke here...
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by tradshark
Re: How's ITM doing?
Just ry typing in the name of that small once-industrial town on the North Lincolnshire coast, hit post, and you'll get the idea.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Eòsaph ~ sorry to be so short, which isn't generally like me where passions of this nature are concerned, but I was expecting you'd get quite a mix of responses, as usual. You can also find this subject in the history of discussions here, and interesting comment there too. But I'll keep it short, just one mix of what I implied with "all of the above".
Sometimes a set back, or recession, is a good thing, as is happening it seems, from what I've heard, with that tsunami of set dancing that hit the island in the 80s and spread out with the expected results. As it receeds, and I hear of numbers shrinking and classes closing, it tends to become, again, more personal, less mob and mass hysteria, less manic. As it stands now, just dealing with this one issue, if you go to an event and look around you, you will often see all of an age, a 'generation'. Yes, there are some of that age teaching schools and starting up groups of youngsters and entering them into competition, etc., etc., etc... But, that doesn't necessarily sto what is natural, like a tide. Things go up and down. When something like a flood or wave recedes it can leave devestation, but it also tends to deposit nutrients, like with a volcano, and out of those can rise new growth, even a healthier growth. It can also raise appreciation for what has gone. The trick is to look beyond the mechanics and find the heart of the thing. That's what we value most, the heart, more than any step or figure.
I, personally, feel we've focused too much, in general, on the mechanics and on quantity. Maybe a recession will help us to re-evaluate what really matters with regards to these social pleasures of music and dance? For us it is about people, not 'Dancers' or 'Musicians', please note the captialization...
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ceolachan
But, in truth, I think it's doing alright...
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: How's ITM doing?
Seejithorpe = S C U N T H O R P E
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Bernie
Re: How's ITM doing?
If Ty-Phoo put the T in Britain
Who put the eejit in Seejithorpe?
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: How's ITM doing?
Same bloke who put the dick in Penistone
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Bernie
Re: How's ITM doing?
Seejithorpe on the coast? Shorely shome mishtake!
The music's doing fine here, helped in part by the Artists in Residence scheme and stimulated by the Connacht Fleadh being held in Leitrim this year.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How's ITM doing?
IMHO,
All is not lost, however
Much is being lost
Not irrevocably,
Of course.
People wil always resonate
Often wanting to participate
Even to the point of playing the stuff
Till the posters at Mustard make them holler, "ENOUGH!"
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Piece
Re: How is Irish traditional music doing?
There - jeez
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: How's ITM doing?
Can I say that I've only been there once
Under the cover of darkness
Never going there again I hope
Though there's probably worse places
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
There must be something wrong with the internet today. I thought I typed "www.thesession.org" into the URL and somehow ended up at www.poetry.com. Weird.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
possibly the next generation is a bit disconcerted at the ageing population of session players, only to end up for their efforts, in the disembodied "ITM" purgatory of the mustard boards, where you can only talk about it.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
...which might be akin, so some people, to watching an old pianola ripping out a reel or a jig. A bit surreal to say the least.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
I mean; really...where to from here, ITM ouija boards?
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Possibly. Instead of taking out instruments and playing tunes, sessioneers will sit around a ouija board in the pub, putting their hands on the thingy and thinking of a set of tunes. The thingy will tell them the names of the tunes in the set. Then, after a bit of blather and drink, they'll all think together of the next set and the ouija thingy will guide their hands to the tunes they are thinking of. Genius.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
I'm just thankful that we're all (well, most of us anyway) are on the right side of the thingy - at this stage, anyway.
No need for group think, just hum a phrase or two, and bob's your uncle.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Perhaps the fact that we talk about it too much is part of the problem (myself included as I spend far too much time here). If it's a concern is over a lack of good younger players to carry the tradition forward, I can offer some input as a newcomer (though not that young).
I mean no disrespect to the seasoned players here (I'm probably about 5 years away from being one), but as a recent convert I find that the surliness that is rampant here has never really affected me, but I can see how it would turn people off who are innocently looking into the music, with as many or more misconceptions as I may have had. It all adds to an exclusionary posture, at least on a perceptional level to newcomers. Perhaps it could be argued that this is not such a bad thing as it thins the heard, so to speak. I'll listen to such arguments. What I won't give much merit too, however, is anyone who drives people away from this music with cynicism and derision (you know who you are), then turns around and moans about no good new players.
Personally, I think it's doing just fine where I am, at least in terms of younger players. I know a fine young piper and a few other fine younger musicians who frequent the local sessions here, all respectful of the music and a joy to play with, and I find that I learn just as much from them as I do from the older players.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: How's ITM doing?
I don't know that there are many younger people who post on this board at all. The average age seems like at least 50...maybe a lot more!
The surliness here is indeed a bit daunting at first, until you realise how hilarious and ridiculous it is.
It's a long way from Clare to here alright.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Great, so in my mid forties I'm still young then!
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: How's ITM doing?
For this board? Yes. For a ouija board?: I wouldn't chance it, lad.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Why do you think llig leahcim spells his name like that then?
Friggin' around with ITM ouija board thingies for too long. See?!
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Jimmy, you really shouldn't be thinking for the briefest second that "the mustard board" has even the slightest impact on the health of trad. And certainly in Ireland, as tradshark and myself have both suggested, there's far more "good younger players" around than ever before.
It is disconcerting however that any Google search on words related to trad brings up this board as one of the first results. Along with banning the term "ITM", I can't help but wonder if a "banner" suggesting to the neophyte that they seek out their nearest branch of Comhaltas (for all the organisation's faults, and there are many, it's a better resource for those new to trad) would be a service.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
We had a ouija board player show up last week to the session. All he knew was The Banshee and The Lilting Banshee.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How's ITM doing?
did he actually play it or just spell it out.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Aye.
If you can be turned off the music by a bunch of anonymous surly posters on a message board, you probably weren't that interested in it in the first place.
Most of the people I play with are under 50. Glasgow has loads of young players who are fantastic musicians.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
Spelled it, in ABC format. Painful I tell ya. I almost gave him a bodhran instead.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How's ITM doing?
Yes, truly bizarre. Surly anonymous posters? On an internet forum?!? Well I never! Who would have thunk it?
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How's ITM doing?
...and that's coming from me, the virtual group hug guy. I'm like a mustardy Leo Buscaglia.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How's ITM doing?
Great scene in Hartford, CT, due to PV O'Donnell, a wonderful fiddler from Donegal, who teaches classy old tunes to his students, so it's all ages, very enthusiastic crowd.
I liked the "in re-session" comment, Lint-on Tweed.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by primrose lass
Re: How's ITM doing?
There is a big world of trad beyond the mustard board.
I think this board has an impact of sorts on "the tradition," but I would suggest that the impact is more on the transmission of tunes rather than having any significant effect putting people off, or not, from learning to play. Everyone I know has looked up at least one tune on thesession.org. Some don't even know it has a "discussion" section and only regard it as a tune database.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
Maybe it's more an issue as some have said, of 'how are sessions doing', rather than how's the music doing. The music seems increasingly popular, just judging by the number of artists putting out recordings, and tours going on.
Sessions might be a different thing though, and any newcomers wandering in here first up and gettin' a shellacing, might well get the impression that other "sessions" are like that too.
They're not though...are they.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
P J -
Well, I don't agree that this board has no impact. A simple search of anything remotely connected with trad will usually pull this site up on the first page. In this day and age where most people research something they are interested in on the Internet how can it not have an impact?
Spear -
That was part of my point. I just thought it odd that anybody on this board would bemoan a lack of good younger players and wonder why that is when clearly many who inquire are met with the surlies. I myself treasure the curmudgeons. Bring 'em on. I do believe this site has an impact on the music, for better or worse.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: How's ITM doing?
duij -
Again, as a newcomer myself, I think my input is at least somewhat relevant. My experience at sessions has been entirely positive. However, if I look at many threads here one would think this is not the case. I inquired here before I sat at my first session. I had already spectated quite a few, but as I was getting up my nerve to jump in and learning a few tunes on my mando, I asked for input here. I got some good advice, along with the usual shellacking. Anyone with skin that is not the thickest will have the impression that that is what they will run into when they try to sit down at their first session. Like I said before, I don't know that this is necessarily a bad thing. Sarcastic humor is part of the session world. My point is that my experience here is a bit different than what I run into at any session. Whatever. None of this will keep me from going to either location.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: How's ITM doing?
But there isn't a lack of good younger players. Maybe in some geographical regions, but not in Scotland. Not in Ireland.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
jb, I agree that the mustard board can be more than daunting. I didn't come near the discussion area for years, and when I did and started reading some of the threads, I'm glad I'd been sessioning for years before that! I think it's down to the majority of positive contributors to affect, in the long run the culture of this forum. I think it has improved.
When this site was down for a day recently, a lot of regulars seems to have had serious withdrawal symptoms requiring various types of liquid or other remedies, and mutual online counseling.
It’s an interesting phenomenon...there is more craic here than you will hear at a session, and a huge learning resource, drawn and concentrated from global sources, not just your local session; and the surliness is disembodied as well, so that's a bonus. I find it pretty entertaining.
You have to grow with it, I think; after all we could all end up here in mustard board land one day…a bit like a comfortable elephant’s graveyard, with a surly corner.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
I should add, in fairness too, that I have learned a huge amount from this site, mostly, I dare to say, from some of the surlies (not that I haven't enjoyed watching and sometimes contributing to the shellackings the surlies got, and continue to get. Excellent craic.)
Without this, I have my doubts whether I would still be playing the music, because I found that I got a bit sessioned-out over time.
I guess nothing is black or white, but there is probably much more positive than negative here.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, did you not read my second para? For every one person scared away by this board (does that really happen?) dozens and dozens start music classes run by Comhaltas branches. I'm with Silver on this one, if it happens at all, is it really a loss that adversely impacts the health of trad? Nope.
duij, to my way of thinking this board is has no real influence on the health of trad is that its field of interest is so narrow. With the focus on playing in pub seisiúns and recorded artists it ignores so much of what for many, certainly here in Ireland, is the heart of "the music": the large number of music classes, the fleadh and summer school circuits, the music making that goes on in private houses, at gatherings to mark births, birthdays, marriages, deaths etc, the exchange of private recordings that goes on all the time, céilí bands and céilí dancing, slow air playing, sean-nós singing and dancing, I could go on and on. Certainly I've lost count of the number of musicians who've told me that, outside of the fleadhs and perhaps Willie week, they don't play in pub seisiúns anymore.
I take the Spear's point the board is well known as a repository of tunes though I'm not entirely persuaded that's a good thing
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
Nope, it's definately not black and white. It's mustard colored.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: How's ITM doing?
pjd, I'm pretty sure the site's influence in Ireland, given the mosaic of trad music activities available there, is minimal. Maybe not so in other areas, and after all, it is a global site.
Anyway, ye have no time to be goin' through these threads here, with all that goin' on there. Get to it, man.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
PJ -
No need to get exasperated by my musings. My response was based mainly on the notion that this site hasn't the slightest impact on the health of trad. I think that was my primary disagreement. As for whether or not people are turned away, I have no way of knowing that, it's just a perspective offered. I probably offer more posts than I should.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: How's ITM doing?
It's ok, jb, you'll get over it.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: How's ITM doing?
Yeah, it usually takes about 5 minutes.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: How's ITM doing?
Sorry Danjo and JoeCSS I have to disagree with you regarding Irish Traditional music in Boston. Yes I've noticed some of the young Berklee players pushing the envelope a bit but then again Berklee is not really known for being a stalwart of Irish Traditional Music, with the caveat that I know some great trad players that have come through the ranks of Berklee. I have also come across and played with plenty of fine musicians, both young and old, who have a great respect for this music and it shows in the music that they play.
Regards,
John
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by mumhain abu
Re: How's ITM doing?
I don't know if this board's notoriety as a repository of tunes is a good thing or bad thing. It just is.
The word "shellacking" is definitely a good thing. What a great word.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
Except for the poor little beetles...
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: How's ITM doing?
John,
Might you toss some names out? I go to Boston College here and I've got a good few Berklee/former Berklee friends who I think would agree that the scene at large is very nontraditional in its approach. I only know one young musician, for example, who I could see and say, "I was listening to Aislingi Ceoil the other day and Noel Hill's solo set [Rainy Day/Merry Blacksmith/Silver Spear] is great," and he'd say back, "Ah yeah, the Seamus Ennis set!". Although there are musicians in the younger generation with respect for the tradition, they often aren't invested in that same way, listening to Ennis, Clancy, John Kelly, John Doherty, Elizabeth Crotty, Fred Finn, Peter Horan...they might know those three tunes, but would they know where they came from and why they persist as a great set...
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Danjo
Re: How's ITM doing?
I'm all for the fair treatment of insects. I mean it's a great word strictly in its metaphorical sense.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
In no particular order: Johnny O'Leary, Peter Molloy, Tina Lech, Ted Davis, George Keith, Helena Delaney, Sean (the Claw) Clohessy, Peter McGuire, Oisin MacAuley, Noel Scott, James Hamilton, Martin Langer, Jimmy Noonan, Brendan Bulger, Ailish Crean..........to name few
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by mumhain abu
Re: How's ITM doing?
Danjo,
I don't think that is limited to Boston. You can go anywhere in the world and find musicians who aren't that familiar with the playing of Ennis, Clancy, Fred Finn, Peter Horan, et. al., just as you can go anywhere in the world and find people who are. Some folk choose to pay attention to where the tunes came from and others don't. I wish folk would be more cognizant of what came before them, as it frustrates me when they want to write their own tunes, play modern tunes, indeed, even act somewhat disparaging towards those of us who "only" want to play "traditionally", but do so without first acquiring knowledge of the tradition. But that's their choice. And it happens everywhere there is trad music.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
Are not Matt and Shannon Heaton around Boston these days?
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
They are indeed.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by mumhain abu
Re: How's ITM doing?
There still aren't any local sessions in my area. I am not well versed enough in the tradition of sessions to start one up on my own. So that is kinda sad. It would be nice if someone came out of the woodwork around here.
As for the other ideas posted on this thread... I would have to agree with a general observation that most younger folks call it trad rather than ITM and that the culture is perhaps moving away from what the pure old ITM folks were raised on. But, in some ways, that is the nature of any art and its evolution through time. I think there will always be some who keep that core alive, but perhaps those folks should also start reaching across the circle, so to speak, to help draw progressive youth in to their fold.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: How's ITM doing?
I've said this before, but it's worth repeating in the context of a lot of posts on this thread:
If you consider this website a "resource", then you are severely under resourced.
Its saving grace is that it has zero effect on the music. Sure, it may have an effect for the severely under resourced, but that's their fault for not getting out into the real bloody world. I have no sympathy.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Yes, a music resource...without any music on it. LOLWUT?
No, the dots are not music. Leave the lid on that worm can.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How's ITM doing?
Well, it's a resource for opinions (maybe from the largely opinionated) but some kind of litmus test for what a group of people think. It's a resource for tunes, if you want dots or recordings to help you learn something you have heard.
I sometimes think opinions expressed on this board are narrower and less tolerant than in the real world outside but you do come her looking for a bit of discussion or controversy!
And how's traditional music doing? Depends where you live and who you know?
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Rob
Re: How's ITM doing?
I agree with SilverSpear, there isn't a lack of young people, in fact there was more young people (under 21) at the fleadh in Tullamore than any other age group in my honest opinion, Trad music is definatley on the rise if anything and has been for 60 years
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by premier
Re: How's ITM doing?
I thunk it's doing fine. I'm a piper and 'round these parts lots of "younger" (late 20's and 30's) are taking up the pipes and the tradition. There are a lot of incredible young pipers out there. Considering how close the pipes were to extinction less than 30 years ago, I'd say it's quite the renaissance.
Here's a thought based on nothing but wild conjecture. Back in the hairy 70's embracing Irish traditional music was much like a lifestyle choice, like being a hippie. It consumed you and became your identity. If you were listening to music, it was Irish or maybe some folk but that was it. I think nowadays people embrace Irish music but it is just music and not something young people necessarily need to adapt as personae.
I spent years performing and recording experimental music and still listen to it (and heavy metal, and indie music, and old blues and throat singing etc) but I've also taken to Irish music and the tradition but not the exclusion of other forms of music.
I'm sure I'm wildly off-base here but just a vague rainy Thursday afternoon kind of theory. Plus, I like making fun of hippies.
And I'm 42, don't know if that makes me old or young.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by misterpatrick
Re: How's ITM doing?
Fiddlechick7, forgive me but I'm not sure I understand "the culture is perhaps moving away from what the pure old ITM folks were raised on" and "I think there will always be some who keep that core alive, but perhaps those folks should also start reaching across the circle, so to speak, to help draw progressive youth in to their fold.". I'm guessing you're not terribly familiar with the scene in Ireland where more than not you'll find young and old, purist and progressive playing quite happily together.
And what's this about not being "well versed enough in the tradition of sessions to start one up on my own". There's no "tradition of sessions", no mystique. Two people sat together playing tunes, that's a seisiún. How to find someone another musician who plays trad? Flyers in a coffee shop, local music college, music shop or Irish pub; put an ad on Craigs List or in the local free press; call the local radio station/newspaper tell them you're looking to find musicians to play trad; call the nearest branch of Comhaltas (even if it's in another city) they may know someone near you; earlier this week didn't you say you were an Irish dancer surely you know someone, who knows someone, who . . . you get my drift.
To be honest they don't even have to play trad. Just wanting to learn is enough. Don't wait for someone to come out of the woodwork draw them out. A seisiún isn't about musical excellence, it's about social connection through a shared interest. Two people in a kitchen having fun stumbling through the Connaughtman's Rambles is all you need to start.
# Posted on March 11th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
Ah John, maybe it was just a miscommunication; I was thinking more in the 15-25 age bracket (I'm 20 myself), and of the names I recognize there you've got the rather more established crowd. I'm a bit more thinking on the "what's coming next" front.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Danjo
Re: How's ITM doing?
I'd have thought, Fine, though looking in from England, what do I know? Players alive probably as good as ever there've been, allowing for inevitable differences between their life experience and those of players of the past. A commercial encrustation of St. Patrick's Day brou-haha, 'Celtic' wooze and bands that may be tempted to make noise to crowds rather than make music, but I dare say similar has happened in America at any rate in times gone by, and can be survived. (Greece has a high-profile trad and urban song tradition, and some of the commercial offshoots are dire, but I don't think this has ever stopped the good music being made.)
The feed from Irish trad into English trad, on the technical side alone, has been IMO a boon. When the postwar folk revival took off, the singers and guitarniks were there but the instrumental tradition took time to catch up, because so little of it had survived. So plenty of people cut their teeth on Irish trad, going on to put what they've learnt into the playing of English trad. Certainly in the North, where 'diddley' in its various forms is not at all alien.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by nicholas
Re: How's ITM doing?
mumhain abu -
There may be good players in Boston, true, but that doesn't necessarily make it a good music scene. I've been to sessions here. I don't go any more though, because they are elitist, unwelcoming and boring. They are very definitely "led" by one or two people, who start all the tunes, and there is a kind of unspoken acceptance that nobody else starts a tune unless they've got the approval of the leaders (all unspoken, of course, but very definitely there). By "unwelcoming", I don't mean they actively try to keep people out or anything, just they really don't do anything at all to make a newcomer feel welcome. They don't even say "hello" if someone they don't know shows up with an instrument. And then there's these awful silences between sets, while everyone looks expectantly at the leaders while they take a sip. There's no craic at all.
That's one issue. Another, separate issue is Berklee. Everyone here (yes, I'm here, but I'm getting out of here soon) wants to be the coolest, most innovative art-musician out there. Which, I guess, is okay if you're a metal guitarist or a composition major or something, but with Irish fiddle (or Scottish or Cape Breton) it just cannot work. There's a Berklee Fiddle Club and a (graded) "Celtic" Ensemble, and they're both just dire. They somehow manage to do arrangements of tunes in such a way that they are simultaneously pretentious *and* staid and boring.
There. Sorry to rant, but I've been here getting mad for six months now, and I had to vent in some way.
Well, I have probably gone and insulted a few people now, as I know there are a few Berklee kids that peruse these boards, but hey....
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Joe CSS
Re: How's ITM doing?
You could begin a session?
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
Yeah, sure, easy as pie, isn't it? Especially when I'm not even able to legally drink in pub yet..
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Joe CSS
~
Kinda of like the time Jeremy said, Oh yeah Michael, I'd like to see you begin a website!" That was excellent.
Good rant, Joe. ;)
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
cross-post. we have a house session. Besides, they'll let you in with a legal guardian. I grew up in my grandfather's beer joint. There were no sessions, unfortunately, only jukebox music.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
Joe - How do you know so much about sessions, if you can't go to them? When you're legal to drink, come to the Banshee, and then you can tell us all about it.
In the meantime, if you have the wheels, you might try going up to Gloucester on a Sunday night. I don't think you'll find that an unwelcoming session, although it is a fair trek away.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: How's ITM doing?
Keep looking Joe, some good sessions are out there, I hear there is a nice one at the Irish Cultural Center in Canton, and the Greenbriar has always had a reputation of being welcoming. Yeah, there are gigs in Boston that masquerade as sessions, and some stuffy people, but there is also a lot of good music and diversity. And like some have suggested, find some like minded people and start a house session.
Everyone is always lamenting the end of the good old days, and generational transitions are always taking place. From my perspective, ITM is just doing fine!
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How's ITM doing?
Dan, you've just made me feel very very old!! I thought you were talking about the music in Boston in general but no worries. Miscommunication it is...
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by mumhain abu
Re: How's ITM doing?
Joe, That was quite the rant alright and it sounds like it's been brewing for a while. I think I remember you from the odd session a while back. I definitely remember saying hello and exchanging a few words; that you were over from England and going to Berkley, what are you having to drink etc... I'm sorry you found it unwelcoming. Here's the thing Joe, and it's been discussed on this board many times, many of those players have been playing together for a long time. A certain feel for the music is trying to be attained. That synergistic nyah or lift or what ever you want to call it is sought after. When it happens you can almost hear a 'click' and the music soars. This very rarely happens when you have a 'round robin, my turn to play a tune' It happens when the players are in sync, they know each other's tunes, styles of playing. I agree that to come in out of the cold and try to fit in to such a situation would be difficult. I wouldn't call it elitist or unwelcoming though, and I definitely would not call it boring.
If your listening to the tunes that are being played and how they are being played and you like the way they are being played, then really it's kind of up to you to learn the tunes and play them is such a way that works. The same goes for when you start the tunes you like to play. You want the others to be on the same page as yourself.
I think part of the problem the night you came in was that you didn't know many of the tunes and when you did start a tune or two either folks didn't really know them, or were not on the same page.
You're a young fellow Joe and I remember being young, I remember going into Hugh's Pub at the back of the Four Courts in Dublin on a Tuesday night many years ago because I heard there was a good session. I didn't know anyone there but I asked if I could sit in with a guitar. I was told that they kind of had a guitar player. I sat down anyway and pulled out a bodhran! The evening didn't go well. I couldn't help myself, picked up the guitar and started playing. The fiddle player started shouting chords at me! It got to the point where the piper told me not to play on a certain set. I left shortly after and I remember feeling very p*ssed off at those players and how they treated me. It took me several years but now looking back I still get embarassed at how I acted and that those players, while a little on the blunt end, were absolutely right. I had no business being there, I wasn't adding anything to the music and I was only there so I could bang out a few chords.
So it's not exactly the same situation as yours but there you have it.
At the end of the day yes, the session is led by a few players who generally guide the session in terms the tunes that are played but also how their played, (tempo style etc). For the other players that are in tune with tunes, as it were, then the makings of a good session are in order. It doesn't matter if that player comes in off the street, is visiting from Ballananty or is a long time friend. Now for other players who are not familar with the tunes or with the style of playing, then it is going to be very difficult for that person to fit in.
There you have it, I'm going to let the rest of your comments go because I've said enough and I'm tired!
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by mumhain abu
Re: How's ITM doing?
Just over a year ago, when I came to America to check out Berklee and do my audition, I decided to go to New York for a couple of days, just because it's New York, and I'd never been before. I found out that there was a session going on the night I got there, so I went to it.
I ended up staying in NYC for three solid weeks, just because of the sessions. I was a total stranger there, the quality of playing there was way beyond mine, and I knew about one tune in six. But all this didn't matter in the least, because they made me feel welcome from the start. No, making someone feel welcome doesn't mean having a "round robin, my turn to play a tune" type of session, or even asking them to start a tune (by the way, I have not started a single tune while I've been in Boston, so I don't know what your references to being "on the same page" are about). Making someone feel welcome isn't a phenomenon specific to Irish sessions! It's the same whatever the social situation, and I shouldn't need to tell you how to do it.
Everything you mentioned about the Boston sessions also applied to the NYC sessions, and also, in fact, to the London sessions I started going to when I was 16. The players had been playing together for years before I stumbled across them, they were in pursuit of the "synergistic nyah" just as much as anyone else, and yes, I totally came in out of the cold on both occasions. The only difference between them and the Boston sessions, in fact, is that the Boston sessions do not seem to be welcoming to strangers. There's no excuse for it.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Joe CSS
Re: How's ITM doing?
Even going by your description, mumhain abu, it does sound grim!
"Pub seisiún". It's a term that really does cover a multitude of sins! For my part, the best are those where:
- it's not the same faces week in, week out;
- there's a mixture of young and old, newcomers and familiar faces;
- you play with someone you've never played with before;
- you hear a tune you've never heard before;
- everyone gets to join at least half the time (i'll happily play beginners tunes with beginners with that's what it takes!);
- no second rows, no people sat behind one another;
- no more than a couple of sets repeated from the last time;
- there's a cheerful anarchy about the music, sets stutter and stumble;
- the odd song and slow air;
I could go on.
"A certain feel for the music is trying to be attained. That synergistic nyah or lift or what ever you want to call it is sought after." Sure when that happens it's grand but sacrificing the other stuff, trying to replicate the conditions when it last happen. Oh I know it goes on, I've witnessed it, but it's not trad as I understand it.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
- but if you can't drink? :(
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: How's ITM doing?
PJ, It's not grim at all. Many of the 'sins' you pointed out occur regularly. It's not the same faces every week, visitors come and go, new people show up and are very welcome. Tunes are shared, different people start different tunes at different times. For the most part there is a very distinctive sound to the music and it's lovely music. There are breaks between sets where conversations are stuck up, jokes told etc. The owners little Jack Russel will come out later in the evening and try to drink your pint! Even a song or two might creep in over the night.
I'm sorry that Joe felt unwelcome but to be honest it goes both ways. I've met Joe and tried to strike up a conversation. I could barely get two words out of him. I suppose I could have tried harder Other new faces have come in and great craic/tunes was had by all. Others still have come in sat in the middle of the bench without saying a word holding their instrument for 90% of the night while several other regulars or out of town visitors are standing in the back because there's no room. It depends on the night that's in it.
I should point out that while I show up on a fairly regular basis, I wouldn't be considered a 'leader' or 'core' or what ever the hell you want to call it.
Joe, you're entitled to your opinion of course, but I'm not going let someone rant on about unwelcome, elitist, boring Boston sessions without a response. From my experience, and I showed up fairly recently in town, I found the folks who regularly play there to be very friendly, inviting, welcoming and also brilliant musicians who play the hell out of some tunes.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by mumhain abu
Re: How's ITM doing?
PJ, no I am not from Ireland and haven't been able to make a trip there yet. I've never attended a session. There are none here. I figured, if I've never attended, how would I no the ettiquette, etc. that I've been bombarded with on this site? I've been told by many on this site that I don't know anything about anything.
So, on another note, Llig... it is a resource for lots of folks that are new to the tradition and are looking for good advice. The problem is learning to sort the good from the sarcastic/argumentative for argumentative sake's replies. My limited knowledge of sessions comes from what others here have told me.
So, after reading PJ's reply to my post, I feel really, really confused. His reply is how I used to think of a session; but my view became much more complicated after getting bombarded with every joe and jane's opinion on the matter.
Geesh, maybe I outta just keep doing my own thing and screw it! LOL
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: How's ITM doing?
Fiddlechick7 - It's like any unfamilair situation really. Observe what is going on before you jump in feet first. And all sessions are slightly different, hence the need to do this even if you are a regular at your 'own' session.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: How's ITM doing?
mumhain abu, the session the way you're describing it doesn't sound like a session at all, but like a band.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by misterpatrick
Re: How's ITM doing?
On the contrary, misterpatrick, it's definitely NOT a band, it's a session with good music. I'm not sure why people seem to think that trying to play quality music ruins a session.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Georgi
Re: How's ITM doing?
Fidchick, I'm sorry you are under resourced, but that's the way it is. Makes me wonder though, why hang around an internet forum for people who go to Irish diddley music sessions? I wouldn't hang around an internet forum for people who've been to the moon.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Unless, of course, I was planning a trip to the moon
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
"This very rarely happens when you have a 'round robin, my turn to play a tune'."
Does this - round robin - really happen at sessions? I've never come across it, and wouldn't want to.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: How's ITM doing?
Georgi, to be candid the reason so many trad musicians shy aware from playing in pub seisiúns is that they've never been the place to go for "quality music". Now your definition of "quality" may of course differ hugely from mine, but by their nature pub seisiúns just aren't conducive to e.g. variation, shifting the pulse of tune, introducing a new tune into the middle of a set just because the fancy takes you. And if you can't do these things then you simply aren't play trad with good style let alone playing "quality music". Sure you can get great pleasure from playing with others, and to the casual listener and musician it might sound great and tight and a good time might be being had by all, but pub seisiúns really are no more than social events with communal music making as a binding agent.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
'Unless, of course, I was planning a trip to the moon' - that's very profound (not joking). I'm signed up to a paddling website because I fancy buying a canoe. But I'd rather browse the threads, do the searches than ask the dopey, unnecessary questions.
And I'd much rather paddle my own canoe! (Ouch!)
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Rob
Re: How's ITM doing?
PJ, I don't think pub sessions are necessarily antithetical to quality music. I'm aware that many pub sessions aren't conducive to it, but I've been to a good few sessions where the standard of quality is delightfully high. It doesn't always happen, but every so often the "social event" is populated with a good crew of excellent and sensitive musicians who connect very well together and play to a very high standard, with all the variations, new tunes, and pulse shifting you could want... Which, frankly, is LOTS of fun.
The session mumhain abu mentioned happens to be a place where that happens with some regularity.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Georgi
Re: How's ITM doing?
I've heard they're a miserable bunch over there at the forum for people who've gone to the moon. Long boring discussions about space capsule etiquette, whether to read the landing checklist or just do it from memory, how some of the craters suck ("no atmosphere'), and looking down their noses at Michael Jackson's moonwalk ("all glitz, not traditional at all.")
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by grego
Re: How's ITM doing?
I agree with you there Geordi. PJ is certainly right is as much as decent musicians have no guarantee on quality music at a session, no matter how regular they may be. There are many, many session murderers out there ready to ruin the night.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
"The love of music does not require perfection. It waits to be surprised by it, but does not expect it in every case."
---Garrison Keilor
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Georgi
Re: How's ITM doing?
That's very true but everyone have a maximum they're willing to tolerate.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
Grego thats started my weekend off with a laugh. If I knew how to do a big laughing face you'd get one.
A paddling website?- socks and sandles off count me in : )
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: How's ITM doing?
Georgi, you've genuinely got me fascinated now (though I fear it may boil down to local differences in what we each mean by "quality music" or a "a very high standard"!). So if I understand you correctly you've participated in pub seisiúns where for example if fiddler takes it into his head, on the spur of the moment to introduce variation that he's he's never played before with the other musicians that they all some how follow him in that split second!
Not quite certain of the relevance of the Garrison Keilor quote, who's looking for perfection.
I'm not denying for one moment that one can't have great fun in seisiúns and that theres a big variation in the quality of music-making between one seisiún and another. So perhaps you're talking about playing to a "very high standard" for a pub seisiún. But no-one should be fooled into thing that what they're hearing is quality trad.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
Bit generalist there PJ, maybe there is no chance of hearing quality where you are but that doesn't mean all sessions and made up of too many people scrapping away.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
I know a few really good players who won't go anywhere near a pub session, and for them, it's a good decision.
But a really good session has a prerequisite that it's conducive to e.g. variation, shifting the pulse of tune, introducing a new tune into the middle of a set just because the fancy takes you, etc.
This means that people get to play ion their own sometimes, at least for a couple of times through. Not arranged of course, just a common knowledge that listening is more as important and as much fun as playing.
I was out the other week at a new session venue with a great acoustic. It was busy earlier, but we had the last hour almost to ourselves. We played slow airs. We played rattling sets where every detail was jumping out at you.
A good session certainly can be music of the highest order. Higher than a paid gig certainly, and one of the reasons is you can all sit facing each other.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
If your standard of "quality" music is "perfect unison" combined with "spontaneous unique and original variation", then perhaps not. But I'd challenge you to find that scenario happen anywhere (even in the duets/trios at the fleadh, where varitions are usually planned out), so I think that's an unreasonable measure of quality.
Frankly, I'm satisfied to define quality as "tight rhythm with a nice lift, and tunes/versions/variations that fit cleanly together"--and that we've certainly had on occasion. After playing with people year after year, one gets a pretty good sense for how to play well with them, and it's not unusual to both hit the same variation in a tune, whether you're in a pub, at home, or in a church (though it's often a variation that you've heard/played before). Those moments don't last the entire session, but they can last long enough.
Just because we happen to be playing in a pub doesn't preclude our ability to play well together, especially if the other people in the session are sensitive enough... and just because we happen to know each other's music well doesn't make it a "band" instead of a session.
The Keillor quote was just making the point that perfection isn't everything, and shouldn't be the low-bar for enjoyment of music (or even, perhaps the low bar for calling it "quality").
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by Georgi
Re: How's ITM doing?
Fiddlechick7, P.J. Doherty has some good advice on how to start a local session where you live. His suggestions are similar to how the local sessions got started here fifteen years ago.
A local musician who had gone to some Irish music festivals wanted to start a session here. She found a place (a seafood restaurant) which was willing to try hosting the session and put flyers advertising the session in local music stores and various other places. I saw one of the flyers and came to the session.
It was an uphill struggle at first because there was no tradition of Irish Sessions here but we persisted and have now managed to keep it going for fifteen years.
I guess Arkansas must be in a really out of the way part of the United States because we so rarely have visitors from out-of-state.
In addition, the two nearest Comhaltas branches are out of state in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma (three hundred miles) and St. Louis, Missouri (three hundred fifty miles).
As for being "severely under resourced" because I consider this web site to be a resource and not getting out into the real world.....
I think of The Session as a useful place to learn how other musicians in other countries who like to play this particular genre of folk music think about and view this music whether or not they agree with my ideas or opinions.
If you are unable to travel to music festivals or even to sessions in other states, you can at least use this web site to communicate with other musicians who like to play this music. Not all of us are lucky enough to have a local session we can participate in or to have a session close enough to drive to.
As for myself, until someone started an Irish Session here in 1995, I didn't even know there such things as Irish music sessions. All I had was a copy of O'Neill's and I would occasionally try to play some of the tunes in it at home by myself on my piano. I didn't know there other people living here in Arkansas who liked to play Irish music until a certain person put flyers advertising an Irish Session in local music stores and other places.
Once I started participating regularly in the local Irish Sessions and learned that there were similar sessions in other states, I began traveling to other states and sitting in at Irish sessions elsewhere so I had a basis for comparison and contrast to the local sessions here in Arkansas. Also, I am not the only local musician from the local sessions who has gone to festivals and sat in at sessions in other states. Many of the other regulars at our local sessions have done the same thing.
However, I still consider this web site to be a resource and I still like to read the discussions and participate in them.
# Posted on March 12th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: How's ITM doing?
Of course my standard of quality trad is something like "spontaneous unique and original variation", I'm only surprised that it doesn't seem to be yours. Commonplace, easily achieved, no. But it wouldn't be "music of the highest order" if it was.
Surely we can agree that the highest form of trad is the solo performer, the piper or fiddler in the kitchen or the back room of a pub playing while his children dance. And the most sought after quality of the solo musician is the ability to vary the tune with each playing. The most loved private recordings, those that pass around the scene are of that nature, whether it be Paddy Fahy, Lucy Farr, Seamus Creagh, Denis Murphy, O'Keefe, Ennis, Clancy, Eddie Kelly, Aggie Whyte or Johnny O'Leary, everyone else in the room is hushed while the musician goes six, eight, ten times, twelve times round a tune. Different each time, sometimes a prepared variation, sometimes evidently spontaneous. I have a spectacular "crash and burn" from Clancy, and dozens of saves where he seems to be up a blind alley.
For me, and many that I know, every step away from the"man in the room" is a dilution. Duets, trios, Grúpaí Ceol, bands, seisiúns all still trad but each a step further from the essence, and in doing so, increasing limitations to the quality that can be achieved. They all have their place, great fun can be had and the music may be fine, I'll even concede it can be high quality within its context e.g. who would deny the Tulla in full flight? But trad of the "highest order"? No.
Lads, having played in what I guess must be more than 4,000 pub seisiúns over the years, all over Ireland, Scotland (including Lerwick and Edinburgh), England, Wales, the States (including New York, Philly, Chicago and Boston), various places in Europe and the Far East, though not yet Australasia, there's a fair chance I've got a pretty good sense of what even the best seisiúns are capable of. And in what I guess, is my local pub seisiún some of the musicians I've played with for more than thirty years so I'm very familiar with the "mind reading" that develops.
Bogman, if you think I'm talking about musicians scrapping away you're missing the point. With over a dozen regular pub seisiúns (where I doubt a fortnight would go by without me bumping into musicians you likely have on your shelves) within a 30 minute drive do you really think I want for a good seisiún?
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
Sorry lads if a bit of "I'm an expert, so I'm right and you're wrong" crept in there at the end but I thought I was being taught to suck eggs! At the end of the day, it's only my sense of the thing.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
Quantity does not mean quality PJ. Doesn't mean it's not there though.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
Cross post. Fair enough PJ, but you're not bad at the egg sucking lessons yourself.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
So my corner of Ireland, what some would consider one of the heartlands of trad lacks for good seisiúns? That's a good one!
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
You said it not me.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
PJ, I like playing on my tod. And it's true, this is where the best of the spontaneous variation lies. But for me, I like better the communication of playing with your chums. You might think my playing is better when I'm on my tod in my kitchen, and under your criteria, you'd be right. But the informal (though I admit, deeply flawed and rarely perfect) atmosphere of a nice cosy quiet pub with nobody bothering you is a real joy. A joy that I just can't seem to muster in myself when I'm on my own.
fauxcelt, I'm sorry for you too that you are under resourced.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
PJ, I don't want to fall out with you here. I agree with most of what you write, and that's a rare thing here at the .org. I know perfectly well there will be good sessions where you are. I think Llig has put it well, there are different ways to enjoy trad.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
Wasn't aware there was a risk of anyone falling out!
As to "different ways to enjoy trad" - absolutely. For my part I'm far from being "pure drop". Love Kila, think Shooglenifty have done some interesting things (though less so since Iain MacLeod left), can't get excited over most of the Irish bands who are still ploughing the Dé Danann/Planxty/Bothy Band furrow, like the little I've heard from Ross Ainslie and Jarlath Henderson, hope Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh's experimental work isn't a blind alley, think McGoldrick's written some lasting tunes and done some interesting work with tabla players, hope Niall Vallely and Guidewires mature into something tangible, would still put the Paddy Glackin and Jolyon Jackson electronica collaboration "Hidden Ground" in my top ten trad LPs list.
My sense though, is that far too many lurkers and posters have little sense of trad outside of CDs, gigs and pub seisiúns which for me is where the real riches lie.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
I am still trying to figure out what llig meant by 'playing on my tod.'
?
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How's ITM doing?
Even worse, far too many lurkers and posters have little sense of trad outside thesession.org
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
'playing on my tod.'
Is that what the kids are calling it, these days?
As for this site, at least it provides some info for those who only know Riverdance, Flogging Molly, Celtic Woman, etc. etc.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by John Galt
Re: How's ITM doing?
Either we have cross-posted, or llig is in denial about his 'tod playing' habit.....or perhaps my ignorance of what a 'tod' is has been seen as a sign that I have little sense of trad. One never knows....
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How's ITM doing?
Hey, I'm just another interweb blowhard, what do I know?
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by John Galt
Re: How's ITM doing?
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/on-your-tod.html
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Thanks for the link, llig! I thought it was a typo or something. This ignorant yankee doodle dandy humbly apologizes! I would be very sad if the Mustard Board was my only source of musical information, but I learn something new from it every day!
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How's ITM doing?
Fascinating. Thanks, mr. leahcim!
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by John Galt
Re: How's ITM doing?
What I don't understand about PJ's claims is that he seems to think pub sessions are pretty far down the lane from where the best traditional music happens, yet he's been to 4,000 of them. That's 3 pub sessions a week, week in, week out, for 25 years.
So why spend so much time at something that "dilutes" your music?
My own experience (which is undoubtedly worthless in such esteemed company), is that my most playful, interesting, spontaneous, original, creative variations and flights of traditional fancy occur in the flow of a good session. The tune is there, carried by 2 or 3 other players. Everyone is listening to every nuance, nothing is missed. Some lubrication is orally applied. And out come the most wondrous musical things! Not to impress anyone (in fact, that intent would just hamper the whole adventure), and not out of boredom, either. Just a sense of play.
I'm a bit of a loner, and I've spent as many hours playing tunes alone as PJ apparently has playing in pubs. But the energy and synergy of a cozy, attentive session is where the magic most often strikes. Doesn't matter at all whether it's in a pub or a kitchen or a cabin in the mountains. But I most often run into other traditional Irish musicians in pubs....
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
Lonelyhearts, where to start?
Over 4,000 pub seisiúns - easy to reach if one has being sitting in them for over forty years, and over the summer months might easily go to three of four or week, let alone during the fleadhs, feativals and summer schools (so that's perhaps half a dozen events in a year running over the best part of a week) where two to three a day would be the norm.
No seems about it, for me and many other trad musicians, pub seisiún are "pretty far down the lane from where the best traditional music happens". It's not a big secret.
I don't recall ever arguing that they ""dilute" your music" though frankly it's difficult to get the sense of what you're trying to say here. But surely one can't argue that when the highest expression of trad is the solo musician playing in a quiet room, a pub seisiún makes it impossible to play trad of the "highest order" for the simple reason that you're playing with other people.
I'm not certain I'd argue it, but I've heard many claim that if you want to be a good trad musician don't ever play in pub seisiúns. So perhaps doing so does "dilute" your music".
Why do I play in pub seisiúns? Because they're social events with people that share an interest and typically sensibilities. A way to stay in contact with friends and acquaintances, many of whom I've met through the music. They're an easy way to met new musicians, hear new tunes. Playing with others in a pub is good fun, and there's a pleasure to be had in shared music making in any form, who can deny that? But they've never really been about music making, that's what the back room or the kitchen are for.
If you feel the "magic most often strikes" in pub seisiúns then good luck to you, I have no quarrel with that. I'll only say that you don't know what you're missing out on.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
Sorry the last sentence of the penultimate para should read "they've never really been about quality music making". Wouldn't be a seisiún at all if there was no music!
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: How's ITM doing?
"On one's tod" is such a common expression over here, it's hard to think that people elsewhere may not know what it means ... "separated by a common language", eh?
Meanwhile, I agree with you, PJ. Just about entirely. Hard to put across though, I would say ...
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: How's ITM doing?
@ PJ "I'm not certain I'd argue it, but I've heard many claim that if you want to be a good trad musician don't ever play in pub seisiúns.",
I suppose I can see that point ,but your right, sessions are a mix of music, socialising and craic.
I think whether for good or bad the trad music of Irelands home has been moving to pub sessions since the 1950's.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by premier
Re: How's ITM doing?
'Of course my standard of quality trad is something like "spontaneous unique and original variation", I'm only surprised that it doesn't seem to be yours. '
You ignored "perfect unison", which, judging by your earlier, somewhat snarky, comment about everybody around the table playing exactly the same notes, was the kicker for you. Like I said, spontaneous and orignal variation is nice, but if you demand perfect unison, you've gone to far. I'm perfectly happy with a spontaneous and original variation that doesn't clash with the other folks.
As for the "highest order of music", I'm not sure you'll find complete consensus on it being "one person in a kitchen". I know plenty of folks who think that ceili bands are the highest order (not sure I really agree, but whatever).
Obviously, for me, it depends on who's playing. I'm perfectly happy to say that Noel Hill AND Tony MacMahon are right up there with any solo performer I can think of.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Georgi
Re: How's ITM doing?
PJ, your hackles are showing. I didn't question *how* you managed so many hours in pub sessions, only *why* you would if you think doing so is at loggerheads with playing music of the "highest quality."
To me, if your sense of this music at "the highest quality" hinges completely on playing it by yourself, then you might be the one missing out on being able to play at your best despite the apparently crippling effect of your friends playing with you at the same time.
As I said in my post above, I've spent countless hours (and if we're really keeping score as you persist in doing) over 30 years (so only a decade less than you at this particular music) playing solo. Sure, oftentimes some good, spontaneous, imaginative music comes out of that experience. But so it does in the company of other musicians, too, even when they're (shock and horror) playing along. If your music is hamstrung by the mere presence of other musicians, or the pub setting, I don't understand what the problem is. Can't you play what you want, within the sounds of a cozy session? Or do you feel the risk of crashing and burning is too great? I'm at a loss to understand why a session inhibits your originality, spontaneity, and the other features you ascribe to for this music to be of the "highest quality." Perhaps my own sessions aren't that limiting, I dunno.
Interestingly, I've listened in on some festival sessions where players the likes of Paul O'Shaughnessey, Mike and Mary Rafferty, Kevin Crawford, Mick Moloney, Ciilian Vallely, Tom Doorley, and others were crowing about how top flight the music was *because* they were getting an all-too-rare chance to play together. Not just the craic, but the music itself. Playing off other musicians' ideas can be so much more than playing within the horizons of your own imagination, especially when everyone is listening closely, in the moment, and responsive.
FWIW, I realize that many people slog through dire pub sessions where the music is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and the tunes either plod or rocket along with no life or spontaneity. I'm well aware of the phenomenon of "session style"--tunes eroded down to the bare husks of their potential by the blunt force of a session that plays too loud or doesn't listen or tolerates only notes played in strict unison. But I've never understood why good musicians would continue to attend such sessions, regardless of how good the craic is (how good can it be under such duress?). The choices are clear--either find a better session, or guide *that* session into more musical waters. Or, I suppose, sit at home and play in your kitchen to the cat and lament all the fools who don't "get it" because they're off making brilliant music down at the pub....
I know, I know. There's the wondrous Irish history (or is it a mythology?) of the solo player sprinkled with faerie dust (or uisce beatha) playing out of his gourd and transcending his mortal coil with the magic that come out. Grand. I don't have a problem with that.
But to insist that this is the *only* way music of the "highest order" can be created comes across to me as dogmatic and neglectful of the experience of many other musicians.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
This, coming from someone who's never met me or heard me play, is just plain silly and insulting:
"If you feel the "magic most often strikes" in pub seisiúns then good luck to you, I have no quarrel with that. I'll only say that you don't know what you're missing out on."
PJ, if this is the attitude your bring to your music and your teaching, I'm beginning to see why your personal gold standard would be a solo performance instead of the synergy of a group.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
...besides, don't most of us spend lots of time exploring tunes on our own, being spontaneous, imaginative, creative with the music? And then letting that experience loose within a session? It's not an either/or situation--one experience complements the other.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
Will, remember, three or more posts in a row without anyone else posting is a sign that you probably have better things to do! Go have a tune 'on your tod.'
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How's ITM doing?
LOL, actually, I've been playing on my tod for the last 5 days straight. Feels good to socialize (even just virtually) for a change.
But yer right...I don't want to come across like poor ceolachan here.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
Well, what to say? One could I suppose attempt to address your claims and comments line by line but my sense is that our experiences of trad are so different that there's no common ground to work with. So all those years, all those pub seisiúns, and I've always been in the wrong place at the wrong time. Always just missed trad of the highest quality. And what my grandfather calls "the one true thing" in trad, that it's all about the solo musician, wrong as well.
So few people born to trad, or who came to it as children post here. I've often wondered why. Certainly it's not that they don't use the internet to discuss trad, emails and mp3s get passed around all the time. I think I have the sense of it now.
Sorry lads, I'll not be bothering you again.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
I usually x-out the title hoping no one will notice I'm talking with myself.
"Please don't confront me with my failures. I'm well aware of them."
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
cross-post.
that was for Al & Miss L.
;)
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
Wow. "Play my way or I'll take may ball and go home."
God forbid anyone should challenge your opinions. Meh.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
so is trad a common term? when did it come into the lexicon?
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
PJ, I was "born to trad, or who came to it as children" though I don't blab about it or use it to try and make my opinions weigh more than those of others. I do not agree with you on this. Just because you, your father, your grandad etc think solo playing is the highest form of trad does not mean it is for everyone.
When it comes to it, perceived knowledge or experience or location mean nothing till you've sat down with someone and had a tune. Then you find out if you've made a tit of yourself or not. Despite all your claims I have to say Miss L comes across with a much more balanced view of traditional music than yourself.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
So is it just me, or is PJ being presumptuous and snarky when he posts things like: "So few people born to trad, or who came to it as children post here. I've often wondered why....I have the sense of it now."
Heh, I first came to this music as a kid. But since I'm a Yank, I suppose that doesn't count in some circles. Apparently, us mustard boarders aren't steeped enough in the peat smoke to have a feckin clue....
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
cross posted. Okay, so is it just me and bogman, then?
LOL,
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
I would suspect it would be me as well but I have only just noticed this thread and it is too late to start reading it now!
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: How's ITM doing?
Yeah, don't waste your time NCFA, haven't missed much.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
I started to get confused reading this thread, then I realised that "PJ" had changed his moniker to "2302" in the middle of the discussion. In case there are any further changes the relevant membership number for reference is 58949.
# Posted on March 13th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How's ITM doing?
Why d'he do that?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
'Cause he didn't like his assertions being questioned, even fairly mildly. 'Cause he liked to dish it out but didn't want to take elsewise on board.....
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
FWIW, I suspect traditional Irish music is doing just fine, in part because so many of its players are less concerned about making "music of the highest order" and are more interested instead in simply playing the tunes to the best of their abilities amongst friends and neighbors. Thank goodness this music doesn't demand any more than that to be sublime.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
I'm at one of those moments where I don't know what's going on. I find that I almost always agree with Miss L. But I thought what PJ was saying made sense. And I certainly didn't see anything arrogant or offensive in it.
I'm lost ...
[scratches head]
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: How's ITM doing?
ethical blend, I agree, sometimes I don't see why certain discussions get so heated. The main participants obviously see issues that I am missing. I think it is because the internet gives us only a fraction of the information that would be exchanged in a real conversation, and we fill in the rest ourselves. An internet conversation is to a real conversation as the sheet music of a tune, is to the hearing of the tune itself.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How's ITM doing?
I hope you haven't driven PJ away.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by David50
Re: How's ITM doing?
If he has then that's a shame but it would confirm this for me...
"Why d'he do that?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: How's ITM doing?
'Cause he didn't like his assertions being questioned, even fairly mildly. 'Cause he liked to dish it out but didn't want to take elsewise on board.....
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Miss Lonelyhearts"
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
Oh, come on, cut the guy some slack. Seems to me he was trying to describe something that's hard to describe, and was getting increasingly frustrated. If you re-read all of PJ's posts, deliberately taking a positive view rather than a negative one, you'll see that, at the very least, it's *possible* to interpret them as attempting to explain, rather than attack.
If you've been around the trad scene for a long time, as I know you have, bogman, you'll have been privileged, as I have, thankfully, to have been present in some very special kitchens on some very special nights. That particular *moment* when it clicks for ... well, whoever, actually, is worth all the hours in all the pub sessions one can ever go to. Isn't that what PJ was trying to describe? Or did I miss something?
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: How's ITM doing?
I don't think anyone has been particularly hard on him. If anyone disagrees with his taste or opinions then it's always because they don't have his experience, upbringing, bla, bla. Not only are you questioning ME but my grandfather too! Eh? Give me a break. Anyway, I
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
And at the other end of the scale I was drawing encouragement from his "Two people in a kitchen having fun stumbling through the Connaughtman's Rambles is all you need to start."
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by David50
Re: How's ITM doing?
Hmm, got cut off there (maybe a good thing) but here's the last line ..........Anyway, I've got tunes to go to.... unfortunately they will be in a pub so there will be no quality but hey ho....
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by bogman
Re: How's ITM doing?
Hmmm ... I didn't think the grandfather/heritage thing was the best idea, either. But I still think it came from frustration at not getting a point across. Hence my suggestion of cutting some slack. In other words, I haven't been here long, but I know that, already, *I've* said things stronger than I meant. I bet you have too, bogman. And maybe even you, Miss L. When I do, do I want some slack cut? Yes please. So, when I remember
, I'm going to cut some for others.
And I still think the basic point, about pub sessions not being totally where it's at, is valid. Fun, mind ...
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: How's ITM doing?
Since PJ started posting, I thought we call cut him slack repeatedly. He had some very good insights and wonderful experience that added to the forum. But somewhere along the line he started insinuating then saying outright that his way was the only way. (He waded into a thread on analyzing the music just to point out how "trite" and off-the-mark my posts were.) That culminated here. Look at his posts on this thread--he's very fond of telling us this: "But surely one can't argue that when the highest expression of trad is the solo musician playing in a quiet room...."
Sorry, but surely we *can* challenge this assumption, and several of us did, with intelligence, insight, and a in good faith. But PJ couldn't handle having his premise questioned. When we did, he snarked back that we were missing out on the "one true thing," and obviously not "born to the tradition." That's self-righteous and narrow minded.
If PJ's posts weren't so articulate, I'd wonder if Will Evans (aka jig, ionannas, tradpish, whatever) hadn't snuck back on board.... Same righteous attitude.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
P.S. Maybe it makes a difference that I've heard Georgi play, and I know that he has no trouble being spontaneous, original, blah, blah, blah to the highest order, "despite" [sarcasm] being in a pub session.
Rather than explain to us why playing solo is the "only" way to soar with this music, PJ just repeated his premise, as though we should all simply accept his words of wisdom. And then he left in a huff. Ta ta.
This forum is a community of interest--we're here because we love this music. But communities are stronger for their diversity, their differences of experience and opinion. All it takes to belong is a willingess to discuss those differences in good faith and debate them civilly (without asserting that yours is the *only* right way and insulting anyone who disagrees with you).
My tuppence.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
I'm not anywhere near at the level of most of the contributors on this thread (and I've heard most of them play, either on a recording or real life), but I find I'm better at coming up with spontaneous variations at a session or playing with another musician or two or five than I do sitting in my living room. I've spent hundreds of hours playing alone and while I enjoy it, I don't get the buzz I get at a good session. And sessions generally happen in pubs, at least in this part of the world.
That said, I kinda get part of PJ's argument. There is this belief that trad music, in its most sublime form, is the solo piper or fiddler. It's true that you can hear subtlety and variation from a solo player in quite a different way than from a group, and it's also the case that the solo pipes only accompanied by drones and regs sound really cool. But you can also get sublime music at a session. You can get really crap music at a session as well, but that's not a reason to write off sessions.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How's ITM doing?
Yep, I agree that solo playing can be of the "highest order," and I said so to PJ in previous posts. I'm simply suggesting that it's not the *only* way.
Absolutes rarely hold true....
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
Oh well, there you go. I was just going by this thread - not other threads. And I didn't read PJ's posts as saying that "his way was the only way". It just came over to me as saying that sessions aren't the be-all and end-all. Oh, and that those magical moments when a lone musician is really 'on song' are something else. I'd struggle to read much more into them, to be honest ... but, if you're determined to be offended, then I guess you will be.
To be clear, all I'm trying to argue for is a bit of tolerance. Nothing more.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: How's ITM doing?
EB, it takes a lot more than that for me to be offended. I just didn't buy into PJ's absolutism. Not sure why that's hard to see in his posts. I thought he was saying what he meant, not beating around the bush. And when Georgi and I and a few others gave our experience of sublime sessions, PJ said we were missing out and not born into the tradition.
Nobody "ran him off" here. We just pointed out his growing snarkiness. It was his choice to leave.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
In short, it was PJ who was being intolerant. Demeaning people whose experience of this music includes his sense of kitchen solo music *and* sublime playing in sessions.
# Posted on March 14th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
I don't feel "under-resourced" despite what llig leahcim says or seems to think.
I didn't discover this web site until 2004--after I had been playing piano at the local sessions off and on for nine years. This was after myself and some of the other musicians who participate regularly in the local sessions had sat in and played at sessions and music festivals in many other states. Myself and the other musicians who had traveled to festivals where they offered classes brought the new ideas back to our local sessions. If we liked the new ideas and different ways of playing, we began using them at the local sessions. I don't think any of the local musicians has ever been to Scotland but I do know some of them have gone to music festivals in Ireland. Also, there have been several occasions when musicians from either Ireland or Scotland came here to perform and, after the performance, they stayed around for a few hours to play music with myself and some of the other regulars from the local sessions.
This is why I am puzzled by llig leahcim's attitude that I am "under-resourced" because I certainly don't feel that way.
I do enjoy reading other people's comments and opinions about this music whether or not they agree or disagree with me. When I have sat in and participated in other sessions out of state, there usually isn't much time or opportunity to talk about this music because we are too busy enjoying ourselves by playing it. I don't go to sessions to talk about music--I go to sessions to play music instead. Thanks to this web site, there is a place where I can discuss one of my favorite musical subjects when I am unable to actually play it.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: How's ITM doing?
Heh, this forum *is* an excellent resource for blather, though I don't feel my local music scene is under-resourced in that, either....
fauxcelt, you have to bear in mind that Michael has daily (if he so chooses) access to a fair number of brilliant musicians playing this music. Lots of folks here are wallowing in sessions and players in their home communities. You in Arkansas and me in Montana can't help but be under-resourced by comparison.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
"Under resourced" is, of course, relative. PJ reckons Will and I are under resourced and maybe he's right. Yeah, so I can go out and play with really good players (even ones that PJ specifically named and admired) but I don't live in Ireland.
However, relative that "under resourced" is, I think the basic benchmark stands. If you think this website is a musical resource, you are under resourced. Don't be puzzled by it, it's just an arbitary benchmark. If you value the musical content of this website as a resource, then in my opinion you are lacking in musical resources - not least because there is no actual music on theis website at all.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Oh, I'm definitely under-resourced. I'd be a lot better player if I lived somewhere with more people playing this music, more chance to play with mighty musicians, etc.
I was lucky to get good start from several mentors (well known and widely respected), so that helped a lot. That and decades of listening and taking advantage of every chance to sit in with visiting musicians, and playing the tunes thousands of times, alone in my kitchen or off the tiles in the loo.
Given that, I agree with Michael. At best, this site's musical contribution is that it's a library for abc and staff notation. Perhaps it's even more useful as a relay station pointing some of us to audio and video clips (YouTube, clips emailed among members, etc.) that we would not have heard otherwise. But that's a far cry from playing with other people face to face. Particularly playing with really brilliant, experienced musicians in person.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
The midis are definitely not a vital resource & that is the only aural source directly on this site. Though the discussions, email access & links to outside aural sources {I miss SoundLantern} are what comprise the interconnections. In other words ~ if the internet (as a whole) provides musical resources & thesession.org does not exist in a vacum (hm-m-mm) ergo we may only be a few keystrokes & a mouse click away from something musical.
Or not.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
Y'know, even as under-resourced as I am here in Ballybumfeckit Montana, and as much as I enjoy the occasional clip off the internet, I hope I never feel that a mouse click is what I need to access something musical.
There's a lot to be said for a head full of tunes and a decent fiddle (not to mention some good friends to play tunes with).
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
It's a basic concept. If you think that anonymous bletherers, anonymously notated tunes and a data base of long dead sessions is a resource then you are under resourced. It's not rocket science
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Thankfully, there's more to life. I can get quite a few good Irish whiskeys and Scottish single malts at my local liquor store.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
So why click? ;)
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
I don't click here for music. I click here to keep up with some of my virtual friends.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Fair play ~
http://www.rte.ie/tv/thefullset/ep4.html
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
Yeah, but I've heard John Carty in person. He's more multi-dimensional that way....
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
hey llig, you mean it's not racket science, right?
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by airport
Re: How's ITM doing?
Once again ~ fair play. All the same I am quite sincere each time I repeat, 'I miss SoundLantern'
Cheers,
Ben
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
I don't see how the first part of the recent Polka discussion (before the squabbling started), for example, can't be regarded as a resource. A number of people with a range of experience commented on a number of youtube clips.
I was recently puzzled about mazurka rhythms and found some good discussions here. If I have time with people who play tunes I would rather ask them to go over a something for me rather than start some slightly nerdy conversation about the differencecs between a mazurka and a varsovienne.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by David50
Re: How's ITM doing?
"If I have time with people who play tunes"
That about sums it up really. If you have time with people who play tunes, then you can stop regarding this place as a resource.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Michael is discussion useless?
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
Useless? Usefulness? etc. The concepts are relative. You could argue that music is useless. You can go from one extreme where the only useful things to do are eat, sleep and procreate, to the other extreme where anything humans do is useful because it keeps you occupied, even doing nothing, because you need to rest.
I personally wouldn't class music as useful. Except maybe if it's your job, or a way of getting girls. But, from experience, though I would describe music as useful at getting girls, it was a useless job. The pay's crap ....... (But now I have a girl, and a decent job, the music has served it's purpose and is now gloriously useless. hurrah.)
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
To be, or not to be....to sleep, perchance to dream....
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
Aye, there's the rub.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
"If you have time with people who play tunes, then you can stop regarding this place as a resource." (llig) Sorry, don't understand.
If 'resource' is used in the sense "a means of supply" and someone has use for a supply of information I don't see why the link between the tunes and the recordings databases cannot be a resource. And if you want a supply of opinion there is usually no shortage of that.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by David50
Re: How's ITM doing?
I am beginning to think there are very few opinions, onsite, though an endless number of ways to articulate them.
# Posted on March 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
Music IS useful, no matter whether it be ITM, or any other TM.
It just occurred to me that I missed our 34th anniversary earlier this month - 34 years and a few days ago a young lady sat opposite me on a tube train, the pair of us more or less identically dressed although she may have been wearing a bra ( I certainly wasn't ), but I was carrying a recognizable traditional music instrument; we exchanged a sentence, and half-an-hour later she walked into the folk music club I was heading for; and the rest is history. Music makes contacts and communications in all sorts of ways.
34 years later we play and sing about 6 times a month in various different settings, ITM, Sacred Harp, and informal acoustic sessions..
Oh, and our daughter plays guitar, ukulele, and spoons, and performs at open mike evenings and these informal sessions too - DNA will out. ( Or was it nurture ? )
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: How's ITM doing?
And thesession.org can be resource of parenting tips too:
Children only need one spoon too eat with. Give them two and you risk infecting your poor innocent little darling with the desire to be a leach on the normal society of music makers.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Despite all of the above comments, I still don't feel "under-resourced" or "over-resourced" because I use this web site as one of my many musical resources.
Besides the five sessions which are held here every month, there are other sessions in the states surrounding Arkansas which I can drive to if I have the time and the money (as I have done in the past).
Then there is the North Texas Irish Festival in Dallas and the Tionol in St. Louis, Missouri every year--both of which I can easily attend if I have the time and the money.
Then there are the other musicians from the local sessions who have gone to various music festivals and music schools in the eastern United States and in Ireland. They all brought new musical ideas back with them and shared them with me and the rest of the musicians at the local sessions.
If I could, I would like to spend more of my time actually playing music with other musicians but that isn't always possible so sometimes I just have to settle for discussing music on a web site on the Internet.
I am lucky enough to live in a place where I can play music almost every day if I want to. It isn't always Irish or Scottish music, but it is music which I enjoy playing and I like the people whom I get to play music with.
I don't listen to the midis because there are so many recordings I can listen to and then there are the bands who come through here and perform.
So should I feel sorry for myself and the other local musicians just because I happen to live in someplace besides Edinburgh or some other place with lots of brilliant musicians who know this music inside out?
No I Don't Think So.
It is a silly, ridiculous, pitiful, and pathetic attitude to wallow in self-pity just because you don't have access to as much resources as some of the other members of this web site. You should just do the best that you can and try to enjoy playing music at your local sessions.
When I was younger, I was lucky enough to have some really good mentors who used to play professionally but were semi-retired by the time I met them and got to play music with them. No, they didn't play Irish music but none of these people would have been hired to work as sidemen/backup musicians to famous singers and entertainers if they were incompetent and didn't know what they were doing.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: How's ITM doing?
Anyone who thinks this is "the normal society of music makers" needs to take a tip from fauxcelt and get out a bit more.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by David50
Re: How's ITM doing?
Ha ha david, you are right, bunch of bloody self proclaimed eccentrics.
But the people I play with are normal everyday regular people.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
"It is a silly, ridiculous, pitiful, and pathetic attitude to wallow in self-pity just because you don't have access to as much resources as some of the other members of this web site."
Hmmm. I don't see anyone here doing that. It's more the opposite: people who have abundant local resources coming onto this forum to tell others how unfortunate we are. Missing out on the generosity of spirit that can be such a feature of this tradition.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
Aw come off it. I said I was sorry that you're under resourced. How feckin generous do you want me to be? I suppose you'd rather I sat typing top tips for Irish music for you all feckin day ... Oh .... hang on a minute .....
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Michael, you have the girl & the money. Be happy. -D
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
& that is why I don't do smilies
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: How's ITM doing?
Mikey, I didn't mean *you.* I meant certain other "contributors" to this forum, and this thread in particular. LOL, we all know that behind your cynical, curmudgeonly grimace beats an idealist, hopelessly hopeful, generous heart.
At it's best, the mustard board is a resource for *thinking* about this music. But that's not the music.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
This is like one of those Western movie barroom brawls. Fauxcelt throws a punch at llig ... llig tries to break a chair over Fauxcelt's head but misses and hits Lonelyhearts instead ... Lonelyhearts responds ... Yeehaw!
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by grego
Re: How's ITM doing?
I was thinking more Three Stoo... Never mind.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: How's ITM doing?
Right Bob, but who's who? Llig is Moe, Miss L is Larry and faux is Curly, at least in this skit.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by leoj
Re: How's ITM doing?
Whoop, whoop, whoop!
Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck....
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: How's ITM doing?
I never found the three stooges funny. Gimme Marx or Laural and Hardy any day.
"There ain't no sanity clause."
"You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead."
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
Like it or not you're still Moe.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by leoj
Re: How's ITM doing?
Ah, yes - Marx: "In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality."
So droll...
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by grego
Re: How's ITM doing?
I'll go with Marcel Marceau.
" "
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: How's ITM doing?
I like a bit of Marcel Marceau too. Though I find there's a shortage of funny quotes
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
My favorite Marceau quote is from Silent Movie, where he is the only character who actually speaks a word ("No!" When asked if he wants to be in a silent movie).
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: How's ITM doing?
Who asks him?
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
It's all subtitles until that point, Michael.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: How's ITM doing?
The movie is about some guys putting together a production of a silent movie. They phone Marceau and ask if he'll be in the movie.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: How's ITM doing?
Thank you David_h, I do try to get out and play music as much and as often as I can.
Miss Lonelyhearts, when I mentioned wallowing in self-pity, I wasn't referring to or thinking of myself. I was thinking of fools who allow themselves to be defeated and give up with the first setback they encounter or their first failure instead of being persistent and continuing to try again and again until they succeed.
Also, I wasn't trying to make you or anyone else feel unfortunate about a lack of abundant local musical resources.
Leoj, since I just got a haircut, I might temporarily have a vague resemblance to Curly (of Three Stooges infamy) but I know I am not as funny (or as crazy).
Llig leahcim, may I suggest that we agree to disagree on whether or not I am "under-resourced" or "over-resourced" since it seems we will probably never agree about this.
Also, I have spent many hours enjoying (and laughing at) both the Marx Brothers and Laurel & Hardy. I have never been able to decide which Marx Brothers movie or which Laurel & Hardy movie is my favorite.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: How's ITM doing?
You're not as funny as the three stooges? Don't be a fool and allow yourself to be defeated and give up with the first setback. Come on now, I know we can't all be Stan Laurels, but the three stooges? There are benchmarks ... and there are hopeless failures.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by ...
Re: How's ITM doing?
I may not be as funny as the Three Stooges or the Marx Brothers or Laurel & Hardy but I thought your comment was funny Llig Leahcim.
And, no, as I have said before, I didn't allow myself to wallow in self-pity and give up in defeat when someones told me that I couldn't perform with them but I was welcome to sit in the audience and listen to them perform. Instead, I persistently kept looking until I found other musicians who thought I was good enough to play music with them. I kept searching for other opportunities to play music until I found them.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: How's ITM doing?
Now that I think about it, I never found Laurel & Hardy all that funny as a kid. The Marx Brothers, hilarious!
Our parents made a great show of pretending that the Three Stooges were bad for us (just like the Beezer comic) and so we all enjoyed them all the more. Probably the same as with South Park for kids today.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by grego
Re: How's ITM doing?
My brothers and I learned much from the Three Stooges. Fortunately, we all survived our experiments with creative mayhem!
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: How's ITM doing?
Speaking of South Park.....I prefer South Bark, (oh no, Kenny got fixed)
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by fauxcelt