My girlfriend, who has played bodhran, guitar, and mandolin for quite a while, is trying to learn the fiddle. She has been taking classical violin, and wants to learn more tunes. Sheet music is one of her resources now--(not reading off while playing, just for getting the notes down). However, bowing is more of a problem, because there's no set bowing pattern in the sheet music. What are the basic bowing patterns for learning tunes? Reels and jigs are the biggest priority, but hornpipes, strathspeys and the rest would be cool too. Thanks!
MattCrannitch IrishFiddleBook is agood starting point,as is PeteCoopersandPaulMcnevins book.
practise paired quaver bowing, one three slurred,one four slurred one five slurred.
I suggest some face time with a fiddle player who can show her how different bowing patterns lift the music. That is more enlightening than anything you can glean from a book.
A few years back, I had the opportunity to sit down with a great fiddler for a few hours of lesson time. He gave me a bowing pattern for a particular reel, and suggested that I hammer that into my brain. I worked diligently on it for weeks, and then ran into him at a concert later that year. He told me that it was now time to forget that pattern, and to start playing reels with that sound in mind. He was right, of course. It was an exercise to get me away from single bows and into the realm of 'how do you get it to sound like that?' Still working on that one, but I have the tools to figure it out.
Short answer: be comfortable with ambiguity. If she is classically trained, she knows how to get certain sounds out of the instrument, Just have to know what sounds are right?
As Batlady describes, the point of bowing patterns is to help beginners get the pulse, the feel, and then you keep the feel but toss the patterns and play things every which way. (If you stick to the patterns, your playing is predictable and dull.)
At the stage your GF is at, she'd benefit a lot from face time with a real fiddle teacher, not classical.
Meanwhile, here are a few ideas that should help.
A basic rule of thumb for when to slur is to slur onto the strong beats. One way to do this is to slur "across the bar lines." What this means is to slur from the last note of one measure onto the first note (the downbeat) of the next.
For example, jigs go |123 123|123 123|
Slur from a 3 to a 1. This usually works well across the bar line (it helps knit the phrases together), and also often with the bar itself--going from the 3 to the 1 in the middle of the bar. Make sense?
In reels, the same principle applies. The basic reel form is |1234 1234|1234 1234|
So start by slurring from a 4 to a 1.
You can also slur from a 2 to a 3.
Even better, slur (412) on an up bow, play the 3 on a down bow, then slur the next (412) on an up bow, and repeat. She'll want to pull the down bow faster so as not to run out of bow. This gives the pulse on the back beat--good for tunes like the Noisy Curlew, Morning Dew, In the Tap Room, etc.
That same slur-3-up, 1-down patter can be shifted so the down bow happens on the 1 and you slur up on (234). This puts the pulse on the down beat, also common in this music.
Without a teacher in person, it may help her to print this out, take a tune and write the numbers over the notes, draw in the slur lines, and then bow through it S-L-O-W-L-Y until she feels it.
There are also many good bowing threads by Miss Lonelyhearts and others in the archives here on this site.
Look around a bit and you can find a goldmine of information to
be had for the taking.
Batlady is absolutely right except Matt Cranitch's book, with audio examples really will sort you out - show you the way to go. Pete Cooper's materials are inspirational and lucid too.
One more point on "bowing patterns" particularly for those in the USA. Some fiddle styles make a lot of use of regular bowing patterns many of which have been given names. You might come across a fiddle teacher who is keen on such things, but beware of anyone who tries to apply them to Irish music!
A trained violinist has got no worries with the technique;
they just have get some style and repertoire.
At the moment I'm focussing on really fast string
crossings combined with single bowing. You could call it irrational bowing because nobody in their right mind would
play like that, except a fiddler. As a natural lefty I find this really
tough going.
You have to do this (not always but pretty often) to give the
rhythm a kick in the pants at the right points in the tune. The
dominant style around where I am has lots of this. Sometimes
I think it might be caused by people who used to play banjo
and mandolin adapting a picking technique to the bow.
I agree Cranitch is a good starting point but you have to move
on from that or you might get stuck doing heavy backbeats all
the time.
I always wonder about men who post things to this list
on behalf of wives/girlfriends/daughters. Especially the
pattern of "I don't play myself but ...."
Hup, the lass in question isn't a "trained violinist," she's just been taking some lessons from a classical teacher. And that likely won't do her much good when it comes to giving the tunes the right pulse and feel. The classical pedagogy focuses on single bowing for a long time, and never actually gets around to teaching the sort of freestyle bowing a good Irish fiddler will use to create nyah.
Tom, actually the slur-3, down-bow-1 patterns I described above are widely known in the US as the Georgia shuffle, *and* you'll find them very widely used by Irish trad fiddlers. It's likely they came across the pond with the early settlers from Scotland and Ireland. Some old time fiddlers lock into such a pattern for whole tunes, but that doesn't mean that the pattern itself isn't used in Irish music. It's just mixed in with a lot of other approaches to bowing, always changing.
One thing I'm enjoying is learning a tune well enough that I don't think about it, and try to match the bowing pattern of the fiddler sitting opposite me at a session. It's never what I've practiced and I get to think about it differently. It also makes me more aware of variations and ad libs. It's been great practice.
Learning bowing paterns is like learning to ride a bike with stabalisers. Sure, you can move forward, in a straight line, but not very well. Turning corners is problematic because you can't lean into them. And you are not even making an attempt at the most important aspect of it, balance. What invariably happens is that you are constantly trying, but unable to lean to the left or the right, which puts great strain on the stabalisers.
Take the stabalisers off and ok, it might be a bit scary at first, and you might fall off a few times, but you quickly get the hang of it.
I have played mandolin but I'm picking up a fiddle this week to begin my slow journey from squawking to what may pass as a listenable fiddler one day. I'm renting to own a fiddle from a good local dealer, but my usual budget restraints prevent me from private lessons. There is a local fiddling class coming up in a couple of months from which I may learn some basics, but for the most part I'm going to dive in and swim, which is why I appreciate llig's post, and I don't intend to subscribe to any bowing patterns. I am concerned, however, that I may miss some fiddling fundamentals with this approach. Any suggestions?
The problem with bowing patterns is that they differ greatly depending on regional styles. Clare style bowing is very different to Donegal style, which is different to Sligo style etc. You can ask 10 teachers for the "correct" bowing pattern and you can get 10 different answers.
My bowing would be very different from what Miss Lonelyhearts suggests. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Just different.
A bowing pattern is something a beginner works on for a while to get a feel for the rhythm of the tune. The "nyaa", if you will. Once you've got the gist of how it should sound, forget about religiously following a pattern, and concentrate on getting the right sound.
From that perspective, any suggested bowing pattern that you get from one of the aforementioned fiddle books should do the job. It's a temporary consideration.
Still, nothing beats face time with a good teacher. And of course lots of listening. The music has to get into your head before it'll come out on the fiddle.
Jimmy, spot on with your move to the fiddle. I played mandolin for a few years before taking up the fiddle and I found it a great help. Mostly because I already had a rake of tunes which made learning to play 8 hours a day easier.
The best thing you can do, better than a teacher (and cheeper), is to get some, if you haven't already, good fiddle playing chums. Get mentored.
With regards to bowing in particular, I never see it as some form of technique to be achieved. It's not like flat picking where you develop the right way to get your triplets crisp. And when you've nailed it you've nailed it. And regardless of my analogy above, it's not like riding a bike. There's no magic moment where suddenly you can do it and you're off. And bowing is not like learning to play rolls either, where there is a time where you've cracked it and you can play your rolls where ever, when ever, if ever, with ease. Bowing is much more of a fluid journey. If you keep yourself interested and keep listening to yourself, your bowing simply gets better and better, as your understanding of the music gets better and better. At the crux of good bowing is the ability to tap into infinite variation.
What else can be said but AMEN! Like a fiddle revival in here. Testify!
Nice post, tradshark:
"A bowing pattern is something a beginner works on for a while to get a feel for the rhythm of the tune. The "nyaa", if you will. Once you've got the gist of how it should sound, forget about religiously following a pattern, and concentrate on getting the right sound."
Fiddle Bowing
Fiddle Bowing
My girlfriend, who has played bodhran, guitar, and mandolin for quite a while, is trying to learn the fiddle. She has been taking classical violin, and wants to learn more tunes. Sheet music is one of her resources now--(not reading off while playing, just for getting the notes down). However, bowing is more of a problem, because there's no set bowing pattern in the sheet music. What are the basic bowing patterns for learning tunes? Reels and jigs are the biggest priority, but hornpipes, strathspeys and the rest would be cool too. Thanks!
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Zazzaliss
Re: Fiddle Bowing
MattCrannitch IrishFiddleBook is agood starting point,as is PeteCoopersandPaulMcnevins book.
practise paired quaver bowing, one three slurred,one four slurred one five slurred.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Fiddle Bowing
I suggest some face time with a fiddle player who can show her how different bowing patterns lift the music. That is more enlightening than anything you can glean from a book.
A few years back, I had the opportunity to sit down with a great fiddler for a few hours of lesson time. He gave me a bowing pattern for a particular reel, and suggested that I hammer that into my brain. I worked diligently on it for weeks, and then ran into him at a concert later that year. He told me that it was now time to forget that pattern, and to start playing reels with that sound in mind. He was right, of course. It was an exercise to get me away from single bows and into the realm of 'how do you get it to sound like that?' Still working on that one, but I have the tools to figure it out.
Short answer: be comfortable with ambiguity. If she is classically trained, she knows how to get certain sounds out of the instrument, Just have to know what sounds are right?
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Fiddle Bowing
As Batlady describes, the point of bowing patterns is to help beginners get the pulse, the feel, and then you keep the feel but toss the patterns and play things every which way. (If you stick to the patterns, your playing is predictable and dull.)
At the stage your GF is at, she'd benefit a lot from face time with a real fiddle teacher, not classical.
Meanwhile, here are a few ideas that should help.
A basic rule of thumb for when to slur is to slur onto the strong beats. One way to do this is to slur "across the bar lines." What this means is to slur from the last note of one measure onto the first note (the downbeat) of the next.
For example, jigs go |123 123|123 123|
Slur from a 3 to a 1. This usually works well across the bar line (it helps knit the phrases together), and also often with the bar itself--going from the 3 to the 1 in the middle of the bar. Make sense?
In reels, the same principle applies. The basic reel form is |1234 1234|1234 1234|
So start by slurring from a 4 to a 1.
You can also slur from a 2 to a 3.
Even better, slur (412) on an up bow, play the 3 on a down bow, then slur the next (412) on an up bow, and repeat. She'll want to pull the down bow faster so as not to run out of bow. This gives the pulse on the back beat--good for tunes like the Noisy Curlew, Morning Dew, In the Tap Room, etc.
That same slur-3-up, 1-down patter can be shifted so the down bow happens on the 1 and you slur up on (234). This puts the pulse on the down beat, also common in this music.
Without a teacher in person, it may help her to print this out, take a tune and write the numbers over the notes, draw in the slur lines, and then bow through it S-L-O-W-L-Y until she feels it.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Bowing
There are also many good bowing threads by Miss Lonelyhearts and others in the archives here on this site.
Look around a bit and you can find a goldmine of information to
be had for the taking.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: Fiddle Bowing
She needs to get lessons from a fiddle teacher who plays this kind of music. It's the only way she'll come anywhere near to getting it right.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by DaveL35
Re: Fiddle Bowing
Batlady is absolutely right except Matt Cranitch's book, with audio examples really will sort you out - show you the way to go. Pete Cooper's materials are inspirational and lucid too.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Rob
Re: Fiddle Bowing
One more point on "bowing patterns" particularly for those in the USA. Some fiddle styles make a lot of use of regular bowing patterns many of which have been given names. You might come across a fiddle teacher who is keen on such things, but beware of anyone who tries to apply them to Irish music!
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle Bowing
A trained violinist has got no worries with the technique;
they just have get some style and repertoire.
At the moment I'm focussing on really fast string
crossings combined with single bowing. You could call it irrational bowing because nobody in their right mind would
play like that, except a fiddler. As a natural lefty I find this really
tough going.
You have to do this (not always but pretty often) to give the
rhythm a kick in the pants at the right points in the tune. The
dominant style around where I am has lots of this. Sometimes
I think it might be caused by people who used to play banjo
and mandolin adapting a picking technique to the bow.
I agree Cranitch is a good starting point but you have to move
on from that or you might get stuck doing heavy backbeats all
the time.
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Bowing
I always wonder about men who post things to this list
on behalf of wives/girlfriends/daughters. Especially the
pattern of "I don't play myself but ...."
What's up with that?
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Bowing
Hup, the lass in question isn't a "trained violinist," she's just been taking some lessons from a classical teacher. And that likely won't do her much good when it comes to giving the tunes the right pulse and feel. The classical pedagogy focuses on single bowing for a long time, and never actually gets around to teaching the sort of freestyle bowing a good Irish fiddler will use to create nyah.
Tom, actually the slur-3, down-bow-1 patterns I described above are widely known in the US as the Georgia shuffle, *and* you'll find them very widely used by Irish trad fiddlers. It's likely they came across the pond with the early settlers from Scotland and Ireland. Some old time fiddlers lock into such a pattern for whole tunes, but that doesn't mean that the pattern itself isn't used in Irish music. It's just mixed in with a lot of other approaches to bowing, always changing.
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddle Bowing
One thing I'm enjoying is learning a tune well enough that I don't think about it, and try to match the bowing pattern of the fiddler sitting opposite me at a session. It's never what I've practiced and I get to think about it differently. It also makes me more aware of variations and ad libs. It's been great practice.
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by wolfhul
Re: Fiddle Bowing
"It's just mixed in with a lot of other approaches to bowing, always changing." Yes, quite agree, and that was the point I was trying to make.
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by TomB-R
Re: Fiddle Bowing
Learning bowing paterns is like learning to ride a bike with stabalisers. Sure, you can move forward, in a straight line, but not very well. Turning corners is problematic because you can't lean into them. And you are not even making an attempt at the most important aspect of it, balance. What invariably happens is that you are constantly trying, but unable to lean to the left or the right, which puts great strain on the stabalisers.
Take the stabalisers off and ok, it might be a bit scary at first, and you might fall off a few times, but you quickly get the hang of it.
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by ...
Re: Fiddle Bowing
I like llig's post.
I have played mandolin but I'm picking up a fiddle this week to begin my slow journey from squawking to what may pass as a listenable fiddler one day. I'm renting to own a fiddle from a good local dealer, but my usual budget restraints prevent me from private lessons. There is a local fiddling class coming up in a couple of months from which I may learn some basics, but for the most part I'm going to dive in and swim, which is why I appreciate llig's post, and I don't intend to subscribe to any bowing patterns. I am concerned, however, that I may miss some fiddling fundamentals with this approach. Any suggestions?
# Posted on February 23rd 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Fiddle Bowing
Watch some videos. The grip and arm movements are complicated.
It's not like picking.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Bowing
Keep the pressure very light - no pressure. Short strokes.
That's just advice to start out with. In about 5 years, forget about it.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Hup
Re: Fiddle Bowing
The problem with bowing patterns is that they differ greatly depending on regional styles. Clare style bowing is very different to Donegal style, which is different to Sligo style etc. You can ask 10 teachers for the "correct" bowing pattern and you can get 10 different answers.
My bowing would be very different from what Miss Lonelyhearts suggests. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Just different.
A bowing pattern is something a beginner works on for a while to get a feel for the rhythm of the tune. The "nyaa", if you will. Once you've got the gist of how it should sound, forget about religiously following a pattern, and concentrate on getting the right sound.
From that perspective, any suggested bowing pattern that you get from one of the aforementioned fiddle books should do the job. It's a temporary consideration.
Still, nothing beats face time with a good teacher. And of course lots of listening. The music has to get into your head before it'll come out on the fiddle.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by tradshark
Re: Fiddle Bowing
Jimmy, spot on with your move to the fiddle. I played mandolin for a few years before taking up the fiddle and I found it a great help. Mostly because I already had a rake of tunes which made learning to play 8 hours a day easier.
The best thing you can do, better than a teacher (and cheeper), is to get some, if you haven't already, good fiddle playing chums. Get mentored.
With regards to bowing in particular, I never see it as some form of technique to be achieved. It's not like flat picking where you develop the right way to get your triplets crisp. And when you've nailed it you've nailed it. And regardless of my analogy above, it's not like riding a bike. There's no magic moment where suddenly you can do it and you're off. And bowing is not like learning to play rolls either, where there is a time where you've cracked it and you can play your rolls where ever, when ever, if ever, with ease. Bowing is much more of a fluid journey. If you keep yourself interested and keep listening to yourself, your bowing simply gets better and better, as your understanding of the music gets better and better. At the crux of good bowing is the ability to tap into infinite variation.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by ...
Re: Fiddle Bowing
What else can be said but AMEN! Like a fiddle revival in here. Testify!
Nice post, tradshark:
"A bowing pattern is something a beginner works on for a while to get a feel for the rhythm of the tune. The "nyaa", if you will. Once you've got the gist of how it should sound, forget about religiously following a pattern, and concentrate on getting the right sound."
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler