Im p*ssed on jamesons listening to Mick O'Brien 's Teampall an Ghleanntáin of Kity Lies Over cd and it is wonderfull. I mention it cos of the contrast.
This site is great but sometimes it just makes you spit.
Firstly
newbies/learners/listeners are not idiots; we're people with passion for music some with a life of listening and loving music and this site treats you like there is something wrong with you.
I know people will come and go into this site and in an out of ITM and dissappear. but the stayers will stay and there is this feeling given off on this site (and it is over whelming sometimes) that says if you've not played for at least ten years then your f*cked
and that affects the amount of people who stay
Its not the lligs or the Floss's; Ive enjoyed equally Lligs "serves em right" to anthrax bodhran makers and Boatpipers poetry. its the in betweenies ; the showoffs ridiculers mockers and destroyers. ..and I've felt myself following.
I know I'm an idealist and a nieave however you spell thant feckinword and I'm sure some w*nker will put me right.
Just spare a thought . the experienced players have a responsibility but when you get together sometimes thats when its worst.
you love this music
share it with some thought-
It's obvious the survival of this music depends on
new players. Particularly young people and children; those
of us already playing should really bend over backwards to be
nice to young people when they show up at their session.
It's a pity you can't tell for sure anything about the people who
write to the yellaboard; maybe they are who they say they are;
maybe not. I personally haven't misrepresented myself here.
Joe, you've been a good addition here so far. Strike me as someone who'd be good crack at a session. Good on you.
But....
This music will endure as long as people care enough to play it well and with heart and generosity. Not all newcomers (or old hangers on) give a rip. So, just like in a meatspace session. trying to welcome everyone isn't necessarily healthy. Sheer quantity can sometimes dilute quality.
Some people come here for a laugh, just as some people go to sessions every week for twenty years just to trot out their 5 tunes and swill a free pint. Others here live this music and take it dead serious (though these same people often have the keenest senses of humor). Like any group, you cozy up to the friendlies and let the others p*ss where they lay.
Well it's tomorrow now. Did you remember your promise?
I felt the same at first and almost threw in my cards. I quickly realized, though, that it is better not trying to change anything here, and pointless getting upset.
Some people do and say stupid things, especially after self-administration of pleasure-inducing substances. Ignore the idiots, help when you can, ask when you want something, and remember that you are not inferior to anybody: it's just that nobody else has noticed. And don't swear, it's not nice even with asterisks.
How's your head?
Well, the world's full of people who are going to knock what you do. After five decades of playing this music I have the following pieces of advice. The music you're setting out to play is not at all understood by those who dont play it, or dance to it or who listen to it fairly obsessively. You're in a vwry small camp. Most of the people who play this music will be welcoming, but maybe warily so. We've seen newcomers land at our door hundreds of times who look as if they may be promising companions. And as often as we've been delighted to see them blossom, we've also been dismayed by the large numbers who've gone adrift. There are many ways we've disappointed. The promising player who just doesnt put the effort into picking up new tunes, the promising player who wants to develop his/her stock of tunes too fast to the extent that they don't really know any more than a handful of tunes well even though they've got the notes for hundreds, the promising player who feels that the music could do with a bit of gentrification and so starts 'rocking it up' or 'jazzing' it or so on.
But, if you're serious about the music, it'll show through. You earn respect in this game, it isn't granted automatically. If you've got heart and feeling and an awareness of your place in the music and an awareness of the importance of this music in defining what it"s meant, what it means and what it will mean to be Irish, then you'll get through.
You've got a bit langered last night and felt a bit angry. Fair enough. But think how you can use that passion and anger to your advantage. Dont turn it on others. Focus it on your playing. Use it to your advantage.
Remember - anybody who gets Mick and Caoimhin's playing, gets the music. If you understand what they're playing, as you obviously do, then you'll understand how and why they play the music as they do. And you might want to incorporate that how and why into your own playing. Don't worry too much about what anybody else thinks of that - if you've got the how and the why in your heart, it'll come out through your hands soon enough.
Good luck and God bless from one banjo player (God help us) to another.
I hope you had a good night, that you enjoyed your sup, and didn’t wake up suffering, physically or emotionally.
There are some of your comments I’ve felt and experienced, not just here at The Session, but in life in general.
I have shared and understood some of those feelings here too, sometimes by contributing to another’s thread.
One of the things I have found is that where and when there are genuine people, they will be there to help, guide, advise and, maybe most importantly, listen.
I think from the responses already posted that you have found some people who do read and then think about their response.
I, like many on this journey, have gone through some hard times, sometimes a lack of confidence, others just hard going, and recently an injury which prevented me from playing.
Believe me, there are some wonderful members here who have taken the time to drop a line and wish well. Those messages are priceless. Likewise, I hope I might have encouraged others, maybe beginners or others with a technical problem, or similarly, hard times.
But that’s like life I think, and generally this site is representative of the many differing types of people you would meet on a day to day basis.
And in a little respect for your comments I quote an old Roman quotation which goes “In vino, veritas!”
If you still feel that, great! If not, then there is always the chance to start another day, look ahead and be positive.
> nieave however you spell thant feckinword and I'm sure >some w*nker will put me right.
I'm your man there: its "naive"
Or as I like to think of it "Evian" spelled backwards. Think on that the next time you consider spending £1.50 on something that comes out of a tap for nothing. (Its realising this that has made naive one of the few words I'm confident about spelling).
As a beginner I agree with you some people need to remember when they were starting I actually believe some people here enjoy ridiculing people and in the end they damage the tradition so even though they can play they are no addition to the tradition and others need to remember they were welcomed with open arms when the decided to live in Ireland from foriegn shores
In all this pleasantry though, let's not miss the original posting, naive or no. Some of the comments here are unnecessarily nasty. If I received one of them at a session I would not be back and I don't think I'm some fragile flower. I find it hard to believe that some of the slaggers would have accepted similar treatment when they first started out.
Good thread, despite the redundancy.
And I agree, we can all try harder to be nice.
It would seem we will always have "outsiders" coming onto the scene and "old hands" with a conveniently short memory, eager to abuse and belittle them.
(at least till we have successfully discouraged an entire generation, and then the tradition will die a most just, though miserable, death).
In the meantime, I think it perhaps a bit evian to expect any better or worse form this group here gathered than any other motley assemblage of humans.
All the usual virtues and vices are represented well here, and especially those associated with pursuing an obscure retro cultural phenomenon like ITM - your "experts", your "stars", your "critics", your "hangers-on", your "name droppers", and, once in awhile, a person who just loves the music and loves sharing their enthusiasm/passion/addiction.
Sounds like just another day of business as usual, here on Earth, with fallible imperfect mortals.
I think we need to remember what sessions are FOR.
Sessions aren't about 'preserving' the music - that's already done - we have archives and recordings, so if anyone wants to know how your granddaddy played a tune, they can look it up and hear it first hand, they don't need to rely on you being able to imitate his style.
No, sessions are about USING the music - getting pleasure out of it, and more importantly giving pleasure to others. And if that means changing tunes, or adapting your style so it sits more comfortably on modern ears, then so be it. A tradition is a living thing, it evolves. You can be sure your granddaddy didn't just play what his granddaddy played, he brought in new tunes, ornamentation and styles that he heard outside the tradition. So why should we not be doing the same? If a newby comes to your session who isn't totally immersed in your own tradition, so what? It is no reason to look down on him. If he makes good music, accept and enjoy.
A session isn't a museum piece, recreating some romanticised past, it is a social gathering - people getting together to ENJOY THEMSELVES. For me a big part of that enjoyment comes from welcoming newcomers, listening to what they have to offer, and helping them get to understand my music. If that means slowing down occasionally, or playing hackneyed old chestnuts that they are familiar with that's fine. I'd far rather play the Kesh with a newby than listen to the local hero thrash through yet another obscure and tuneless reel, just because it is steeped in 'tradition'.
A good session has space for everyone - you're not recording an album, it doesn't matter if tunes aren't played perfectly by the whole company. The only thing that matters is that people ENJOY being part of it.
to a beginner working their way towards playing in sessions, this place is a goldmine in so many ways.
but the critisism and nastiness and intolerance scared me as a beginner; i'm sure there are some who after reading the poison here have shied away from taking the plunge in a real session.
there have been some loud critics on here who i have eventually met since i started playing in sessions.
At least 2 were far better at vitriol than jigs & reels.
in one case the critics playing sounds like a bullock farting in an empty corn silo.
i was surpised, from the way this person posted here, you'd have thought they were a virtuoso, but it really wasnt the case.
its very easy in anonymous forums like this to talk the talk, and a few who scream the loudest can't walk the walk.
critism is fine, as long as it comes from a wise source.....
"Most of the people who play this music will be welcoming, but maybe warily so. We've seen newcomers land at our door hundreds of times who look as if they may be promising companions. And as often as we've been delighted to see them blossom, we've also been dismayed by the large numbers who've gone adrift. There are many ways we've disappointed."
...and there are those of us who don't care how many times we get jilted. We're the dumb lovers always ready to open our arms and embrace again and again, no matter how many times we get hurt, to continue the analogy.
Then, there are those who just can't do it anymore, can't be 'arsed', are sick and tired of being nice over and over again. Why?
Mr. Lyons again:
"There are many ways we've disappointed…"
So, that's why. For every amadán like me ready to smile and welcome, no matter what, over and over again, like some demented Sisyphus and his rock, there's a counterbalance. Even in our little neck of the musical and cultural world there is balance.
Now be a good lad and pass that stuff over here, my morning coffee needs some assistance.
Someone call for a counterbalance to SWFL? Sorry, I only use Jameson's for Irish coffees. Now, Crested Ten, that I'll take neat, or a nice single malt. Where are ye Silver, where's that single malt. Crack it open and lest have a few tunes, maybe even, after enough of it, some singing too. Do you like Simon and Garfunkle, how about "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"?
I tend to issue wind-ups and leg-pulls but hope people realise it's not at *them*, but at the drollnesses of, well, most things - musicians, instruments, The Music, the places Session members inhabit, the rest of it.
I've had no reason to bite off anyone's head here, have no wish to, and hope I haven't done it to any newbie by accident.
Show your teeth marks here... There, on my right calf, I'm sure that one is from Nicholas. It took forever to clear up that infection, and a load of very unpleasant antibiotics...
I cannot think of anything to add, so I'll just steal this naive quote from Mark Twain, "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
Oh well, it's just coffee ~ they have no Jameson's in this cafe.
Ahh..to be young again (not that I'm very old, I don't fart dust yet) and oh how the drunken rantings can open open some interesting doors. Can't they? Tend to close em at times too.
Seems like the more seriously I take the music, the less seriously I must take myself. If I let every jab from a dolt get to me, I'd be uttering in complete nonsense.....hold on, hmmm...I do utter in complete nonsense....regularly.....oh well,
Note to self..... Don't take yourself too seriously, seriously...ahh yeah seriously.........wait, did I say don't take it too seriously?...Well if I didn't, that's what I meant to say.
Seamie said "There are many ways we've disappointed. " I think he meant either "There are many ways we're disappointed" or "There are many ways we've been disappointed. " But I like what he actually wrote. I know this might sound like I take this all too seriously but I think I have learned a lot more from the times I have disappointed others than from assumptions about the way others have disappointed me. As a teacher of some forty years and a parent of some thirty, "I've disappointed" all too often.
Actually, I think Spike and the boys were able to gargle on cue, weren't they?
"Bridge Over Troubled Water" is one of my favorite songs by Simon Garfunkel.
Try not to become too starry-eyed Boatpiper and take yourself Siriusly--especially not during the dog days of summer. The price could be astronomical.
My, the posts have been getting deep in the past few days.
Our Heir to the Throne, aka WannabeWarrenBuffet, gives me an expensive single malt for Chirstmas each year. Concern for the ongoing welfare of my liver prevents me from making short work of it. I am allowed one glass per year.
It's difficult to share in the virtual world. It could make these posts even more interesting
As far as I can see, from my acquaintance with local grain silos (eg the Boythorpe Cropstore), the only way to get a bullock in would be in extremely small pieces, which would severely limit its value at the abbatoir! Does your correspondent wish to ruin our farmers who might be tempted to perform his thought experiment (I can only assume that he is proposing some idea like that of Schroedinger's (SP?) cat) ?
Your ever faithful but pedantic servant ......... ..
Ceol, I cracked open that whisky I told you about at 4am last night and had a wee dram. It was amazing. We weren't playing Simon and Garfunkle though (and ever since Celebrity Jeopardy on SNL, my mind jumps to Sean Connery saying "I Garfunkled your mother last night!" Anyway... moving on). I think my mates had Best Cheese of the 80s playing on Spotify.
I like this site for the banter, the craic, the surreal and random off topic discussions, and aye, the occasional serious discussion about tunes and sessions.
Some good thoughts in this thread! I always try to give new posters the benefit of the doubt, and try to give them information rather than belittle their ignorance!
I'm leery of sessions where people think that "The only thing that matters is that people ENJOY being part of it." Such events usually devolve into unmusical gibberish.
I'll gladly play any tune at any pace to encourage a novice, but I'll also expect them to listen an learn when the music rises above their abilities.
Some of the worst sessions are those commandeered by novices who resent anyone who can actually play the music.
"I always try to give new posters the benefit of the doubt, and try to give them information rather than belittle their ignorance!"
AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not drink and post
I must not drink and post
I must not post and drink
I must not post drinks...
I wonder what the record is for the number of different mental states in one thread?
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Miss Lonelyhearts: "I'm leery of sessions where people think that "The only thing that matters is that people ENJOY being part of it." Such events usually devolve into unmusical gibberish."
Sessions aren't compulsory, so presumably the only reason people are there is for enjoyment. (Actually, I can think of two other reasons why people might be there: 1. You're being paid to lead the session, in which case you have a duty to do what others want, not what pleases yourself. 2. You're there simply to show off your prowess, which might make you feel good, but it normally makes for a pretty miserable session for everyone else.)
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Miss Lonelyhearts:
"I'll gladly play any tune at any pace to encourage a novice, but I'll also expect them to listen an learn when the music rises above their abilities.
Some of the worst sessions are those commandeered by novices who resent anyone who can actually play the music."
I completely disagree with that. The worse sessions are those commandeered by experts who simply whant to show theere talents, regardless of everyone else.
A good session is one where most people are playing most of the time. And if most people there are beginners or intermediates, then that is the level it should be running at - if there are one or two 'pros' and one or two total beginners, then there should be one or two fast sets and one or two real slow ones for those people, but the majority of what is played should suit the majority of players.
If you get frustrated playing in sessions with people who are not as good as yourself, then perhaps it is time to think about why you attend sessions. If you are that good, then perhaps it is time to form a band - gather together a few musicians who are as good as yourelf, and give PERFORMANCES to display your talents. But a session isn't a performance. And if you are really so good that you get frustrated by lesser musicians, then you have completely the wrong attitude. You shouldn't see yourself as a 'star' being held back by a lousy backing band, you should see yourself as a tutor and mentor, whose role within the session is to pass on your wisdom, to help others improve. Not simply to perform. Take that attitude and I think you'll find you can get a lot of pleasure out of even the crappiest session, without having to trample on the learners.
But if you are sat with two or three of your mates merrily playing away at a fair old nip, like you do most weeks and have done for years, are you saying it's rude not to stop all this and turn to O'Carolan dirges for the rest of the evening if a dozen beginners roll in?
Eosaph, feel free to post drinks. Send them to TheSilverSpear, the Oran Mor, Glasgow, UK. I like fancy single malts.
Can't we just accept that sessions can both be of a high-ish musical standard, patient with polite beginners but at the same time not descending to the lowest common denominator, and ALSO be open and welcoming to everyone, ever, who wants to contribute to the musical process. Granted, I think this is unlikely to happen in the *same* session but there are sessions which fit both these descriptions to varying degrees. There are sessions where it would be totally acceptable to play a zillion O'Carolan dirges all night long and sessions where that would go over like a lead balloon. Instead bemoaning people's attitude, screech, just find a session which suits you. They are all different!
Thanks SS, but I do have a session that suits me, one where some very high level players are involved, yet I've never seen anyone turned away or made to feel unwelcome.
It is Miss L that seems to have some sort of problem.
But then I'm in Scotland, not Ireland. Maybe attitudes are different.
Well, Miss L is in the States. I'm in the UK, but I'm with her on this one. I for one would hate to be condescended to. Let the great players play what they want. Sometimes novices may be able to join in. They'll probably even be encouraged to. They'll get more out of it this way. And it doesn't mean they're unwelcome.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by llig leahcim "But if you are sat with two or three of your mates merrily playing away at a fair old nip, like you do most weeks and have done for years, are you saying it's rude not to stop all this and turn to O'Carolan dirges for the rest of the evening if a dozen beginners roll in?"
Yes.
In reality it doesn't even take a dozen, just one or two. Our session quite often morphs in exactly that way in the tourist season. And it usually makes for a cracking evening, as we search for stuff that is within their repertoire/capability, but still good tunes. If all you want to do is rip through the same old racing-reels week after week, with people you know, it's probably best done at home or in a rehearsal room, not a pub.
Surely it is rude for someone to turn up to a session who has never been there before and expect the session to completely change to accomodate them and their wishes/capabilities making the night a sudden heap of sh*te for the regulars. I am not saying that you shouldn't make allowances for visitors and try to make them feel welcome but there has to be limits.
Besides which if a session is best when most people are playing most of the time then that affords little opportunity for the attendees to hear and learn new tunes and so expand their repertoire. Also if a beginner never gets to hear a proper session with decent tunes played well because the other musicians are so accomodating then they will be hampered in their own development.
Skreech, I realize what Lonelyhearts said sounded a bit harsh, but I've been in a few of the sessions he has described. A group of eager novices over-run a pub and get upset when people play "non-approved or spontaneous sets" that are not from a book. It's a rare thing, thank Jeebus, but the unlucky can still stumble into them.
But another point of disagreement is where you say that the best sessions are where most of the people are playing most of the time. Nope. I'd say it's more like half the people are playing half the time, in various combinations.
You gotta have room to breath, have a natter, a smoke ... and most important of all, have a listen.
Everyone playing all the time is a horrendous wall of nothingness. I'll bet you even extend that to having all the bloody strummers and, god forbid, the feckin thumpers away at it all bloody night too.
OK, I didn't express myself very well - I guess I didn't mean 'most of the people playing most of the time'. But certainly most of the people should be INCLUDED most of the time. That is to say playing tunes within the capability and tastes of the majority - tunes that they could play (or listen to and stand a chance of learning) when they're not having a fag/natter/pish.
Nothing is black and white, just because there are begginners there doesn't mean you mustn't play the fast stuff, just that it shouldn't dominate. The majority of the music should be inclusive. Make sure everyone has the chance to starts sets they want to play, or if you find yourself leading the session and starting everything, think you way round the table - start a set that you think is appropriate to each person in turn. Who knows, you might find you enjoy the challenge, and land up digging out tunes you'd forgotten you knew.
As for the strummeers and thumpers, if it happens as a one-off, yeah, just accept it. If it happens regularly and is spoiling things for everyone else, there are plenty of ways of dealing with it tactfully, without making anyone feel unwelcome. Always remember that one or two of those strummers and thumpers might move on to better things once they become familiar with the music. They may be the future of your precious tradition.
"Can't we just accept that sessions can both be of a high-ish musical standard, patient with polite beginners but at the same time not descending to the lowest common denominator, and ALSO be open and welcoming to everyone, ever, who wants to contribute to the musical process."
HEAVENS NO SS! What are you, some sort of reasonable purveyor of logic? Be gone with ya! You will all stop what you are doing when the n00bs arrive and proceed to play nothing but “Oh, the Britches Full of Stitches” for the next 45 minutes. I don’t care if the ghosts of Padraig O’Keefe and Johnny O’Leary are running the session. If even one newbie arrives the music will STOP in its tracks and we shall play reels at slow hornpipe speed for the remainder of the evening.
Whew. Sorry. Sarcasm outburst, my apologies.
OK, I run two sessions. Sunday is the big day in the pub. We’ll brake for beginners, but then it’s back on the autobahn. You want to play slow all night and pick ‘em apart, you’re more than welcome to come hang out in the kitchen some night during the week and I’ll upchuck them slowly at ya, get you up to snuff for Sundays so we can have a good time.
Ya got beef with that? Try poultry. Maybe some seafood.
SilverSpear is a "reasonable purveyor of logic"? I never thought someone would describe her like that. Are you insulted or complimented SilverSpear?
As for trying beef, poultry, or seafood, I think I would prefer the dead cow or the dead fishes because eating poultry is such a fowl idea.
And, what is furthermore, if you don't perform the proper ceremonies and rituals to properly satisfy the gods before you eat a dead chicken, you run the risk of being haunted by the soul of the dead chicken. Yes, I am talking about the dreaded Poultrygeist.
fauxcelt- I've moved into a strage in my life where I search for the simplicity in things....Divinity being in the details supposedly, I am looking for salvation in the concept.
Or perhaps, I am taking the advice that if things start getting to deep, stop digging.
I think it's a combination of a strange stage, which can be a bit of a massacre and a heart breaker, especially if it's an unwelcoming strange stage.
Though sometimes strange stages can be nice to perform on, not that I perform at sessions, mind you. Y'all got to pay me for performances on strange stages...or even familiar ones, for that matter.
It's quite a leap to take what anyone here has said from the perspective of better, more experienced players to then assume: "If all you want to do is rip through the same old racing-reels week after week, with people you know, it's probably best done at home or in a rehearsal room, not a pub."
That sounds like a horrid session, too, and in fact is what a lot of novice-dominated sessions are like (though "racing" may be an overstatement).
There's a presumption in this whole thread that people who are inexperienced in this music somehow deserve *equal* consideration, both in this forum when they express their (often uninformed) opinions and at sessions when they expect everyone else to play at their level. And I think that's just silly.
Some opinions are more informed, more thoughtful, and hence more insightful than others. Some session players are more skilled, more saturated with tunes and nyah, and more musical than others.
Personally, I make it my main priority to be welcoming, considerate, generous, and inclusive as possible toward novices and anyone who shows interest in this music. At my local sessions, I'm the person who knows everyone else's tunes, and my choice of what to play is routinely based on which tunes will include players who've been sitting on their hands.
In return, I hope for some reciprocity. (I say "hope" because I've learned through wretched experience not to "expect" it.) I hope that newbies are open minded enough to acknowledge the limits of their abilities and be willing to listen and learn from the better players, and to enjoy it and take some inspiration from when the music soars beyond their current abilities.
Because it's not just hopeless fools that turn up with instruments (though we know this is the norm). It's because really good players often turn up, especially if the place has a reputation ...
... and reputations require looking after. I'm not going to sit all night surrounded by bloody strummers and thumpers. Not for even one night. Word gets around. Zero tolerance is required
If you go outside Sandy Bells you can actually see the marks where Llig told the offending person to 'bite the curb'. The Council keep on trying to shift the stains, meanwhile the pub management are thinking of having a plaque installed.
It just doesn't do any good to suffer fools gladly or otherwise, and it helps the fools themselves least of all.
It's a two way street. Beginners are welcomed, providing they are:
"...willing to listen and learn from the better players, and to enjoy it and take some inspiration from when the music soars beyond their current abilities." (Miss L)
After all, there but for the grace. How else did we all learn?
You don't learn a thing from being coddled, or having your foolishness suffered, gladly or otherwise.
Perhaps you don't want to learn. You don't want to improve. You want to happily muddle along at the lowest common denominator.
That's fine, but why would you demand that your poor attitude be inflicted on others? From others you are trying to learn from?
That is surely the first time, ever, someone has called me a "reasonable purveyor of logic."
I'm saying, you *shouldn't* do anything at a session. There are sessions which screech would love because they do go out of their way to accommodate everyone and make sure everyone gets a chance to play. There are also sessions which play a kind of obscure repertoire of tunes at the speed they want to play them at and the chances of them seeing a beginner attending one night and shifting their whole repertoire are pretty fecking slim.
Obviously this music depends on new players being encouraged and brought along. Duh. But at the same time, there IS a hierarchy based on skill and experience. Bouzouki player Roger Landes, at a workshop I attended about five years ago, called it a meritocracy. I more or less agree with him. And it's more apparent in some sessions than others. Deal with it. It's not always easy but at the same time I wouldn't have it any other way, and I speak as someone who in most respects is very much at the bottom of it. However it is possible to crawl your way up as you get better and learn more.
I wouldn't *want* every session to bend over backwards for learners and play the Kesh at 50bpm whenever someone wanted it. The music, the tradition, needs the high level sessions as much as it needs the open friendly, beginner ones. That's where the energy and the nyah is. The beginners who truly care will eventually get to those sessions and feel welcomed.
Yes, I know, I know, but bigotry cuts both ways. It is
simply the superior product. And the guard at the
distillery gate's eerie resemblance to John Candy
teaches us that reincarnation is a happy fact.
Because it's not just hopeless fools that turn up with instruments (though we know this is the norm). It's because really good players often turn up, especially if the place has a reputation ...
... and reputations require looking after. I'm not going to sit all night surrounded by bloody strummers and thumpers. Not for even one night. Word gets around. Zero tolerance is required
Llig, you sound as if you have an inferiority complex.
Not from that statement he doesn't. He sounds like he knows what he wants. It shows confidence. It might seem like arrogance, but there's the rub ~ it's intended (if I may infer) as humility, perhaps even reverence.
I think what some beginners find disheartening is that there really aren't that many beginner-novice sessions around. I sure haven't found any that I wouldn't have to travel 4-6 hours one way, and in this economy and time, that just isn't economically feasible for the average jane or joe. And, because of the reasons many have listed above and in other threads, we are intimidated to show up at established sessions. Seems like sometimes you have to know someone to be "in". I have yet to be in a session for these two reasons. That is sad. I would really like to try.
The "best" session starts slowly, where new players are accommodated by the few of the experienced who turn up and bit by bit, with more and more of the more experienced arriving, it changes until the new players probably can't play anything but sit in the warm glow of the earlier generous acceptance and the present furor of the fast complex playing.
All this takes, beyond pleasant attitudes, is a recognition that if you are a newbie, you come early, and if you want to play something difficult at speed, you wait until later.
Really?confidence?no I think that statement shows lack of confidence , a player scared that people will judge him because he was in the same session as thumpers strummers.
a really good player like SeamusCreagh,or JackieDaly knows that his playing is judged purely on his own playing,not on some visiting strummer or thumper.
Lligs mistake is lack of confidence,he should get up and thump the strummers,put a penknife through the bodhran and kick the bodhran out of the door and then kick the bodhran players testicles,and that is just starters
Fiddlechick, follow SWFL's suggestion and find a mentor, or at least someone else who loves this music to learn with. I know it's harder in some places than others--I've lived in remote, small towns a lot, far from any other Irish trad players. So sometimes it was near impossible. But I took advantage of every opportunity to hear and meet other musicians, and the more you announce your interest, the more likely someone will eventually come out of the woodwork to share in or mentor your playing.
I teach music for a living, and I run a weekly tune learning session. But I also *daily* mentor other players, at no cost to them, simply because that's how the music and the ethos of this tradition is passed along (and was passed along to me by others).
Until you find someone near you, you might also try online Skype lessons with James Kelly.
Actually, Zippy, I think both of us should stop digging in this discussion because we have gotten in deep enough already. There seem to be plenty of other people who want to keep digging in this discussion so maybe we should get out of their way.
Dick, I'll agree to disagree. Fiddlechick7, it's good to see you're bringing up those valid comments. SWFL Fiddler & Will (aka Miss Lonely) are definitely concerned about helping you find a way to play with others who love the dance tunes. Even if there is a single person close to where you live, seek him or her out & make the most of the small things. Don't be too disheartened!
Cheers, wish I had something more concrete.
Yup. It's kind of sh*t when you feel you're learning this music all alone and the only sessions in town are fairly high level ones which don't seem at all interested in you. I've been there. I'm sure a fair few other posters on this website have had their moments as well. Ideally there would be learner's sessions and you'd find people at your level with whom you can explore the music with, or a mentor as Will suggested. Sometimes you can find that, and it's awesome when you do. Sometimes you can't and you have to struggle alone with it for a while yet.
A few years ago, at a session in Clonakilty, I witnessed a bodhran actually being kicked out of its owner's hands by a very irate session leader who requested said bodhran owner to desist and depart the pub forthwith (or words to that effect - this is a family website!), which the wretch did.
The bodhranist was an out-of-town visitor, not competent on the instrument, who ignored all requests varying from the initially polite to the short and sharp to tone it down and actually allow the other musicians and the punters to hear the music. In the view of everyone present the leader was well justified in his action, and certainly would have had no cause to regret it on the morrow. No jury would have dared to convict, either
It's interesting how many people want to define a session in one generalized form, and usually with some sort of democratic ideal. A session is a myriad of things based on whatever the group of people having it want it to be. It can be novices and beginners sitting around a table performing together the tunes they've learned at a comfortable pace, or it can be seasoned veterans sitting around sharing their favorite tunes with high energy and snappy tempos. It can be anything and everything between. The bottom line is that when you encounter any given session it's your responsibility to sus out what sort of session it is and whether or not you're capable or willing to contribute to it. It is NOT your job to expect it to conform to whatever generic session you think all sessions should be. Quite simple really.
but how about a fresh start? "Firstly
newbies/learners/listeners are not idiots; we're people with passion for music some with a life of listening and loving music and this site treats you like there is something wrong with you. . .
I know I'm an idealist and a nieave however you spell thant feckinword and I'm sure some w*nker will put me right."
I've racked my brains Random but I'm sorry I have no idea what you're on about..Joking apart I was quite choked by the initial response specially Seamie's advice. Many thanks.
No, for sure, sessions are not democracies. There's no field of human endeavour that isn't subject to politics and the pecking order and sessions are a paradigm of that fact rather than an exception to it.
I reckon that your standing in a session is a function of:
1. Your playing ability.
2. How long you have been attending that session.
3. The extent of your tune repertoire.
4. Your general contribution to the craic.
5. How regularly you attend the session.
6. The instrument that you play.
If you don't rank highly in these regards then the concessions that the session makes towards you will vary. I guess that some will make none at all, some will bend over backwards, but the majority will toss you the odd bone. But how it is is how it is and there is no point bemoaning the situation. Whichever, the onus of responsibility to achieve inclusivity lies with you, not with them. That's a process which I am going through at the moment. It's not that hard, but it might take a while:
1. Attend regularly, even if you hardly get to play at all.
2. Devote every spare minute to learning tunes and getting your playing ability up to the general level of the session.
3. Focus your energies on the tune sets that are played frequently and which are played at a speed that you can cope with.
4. Show an interest, but don't bombard people with requests for information.
5. Have something up you sleeve if they ask you to kick-off a set.
Random-
I thought it was a great story, Sounds like he had it coming. I get the feeling you're setting me up for something here? If it was the crack about Clonakilty - no dissrespect intended, The town is new to me and well, its a funny name for a shallow one like me.
Following from other posts; although not new to the music I am new to playing and attending sessions. If learners and experienced players show respect and consideration everyone benefits. I’m happy to sit and listen at sessions and sooner or later I’ll get a nod to play a tune.
If I noodle around and drag the quality down no-one really benefits its disrespecting the music and I probably wont get the nod. I’m very fortunate in that my session usually consists of (including myself) one or two learners and between five and ten very able musicians. If the sessioners were all learners I’d be able to play all night and learn nothing, I don’t find it easy though; I long to play and show off my new tune and I guess my drunken rant was a frustrated “I’m doing all I can here- don’t disrespect my efforts."
But as Rook put very well “...all vices and virtues represented here..”.I’ll live
Julie =Julie Andrews come back at Llig a while back
Some background to that memorable session in Clonakilty in 2006 ...
Clonakilty ... a small town near the coast about an hour's drive west along the N71 from Cork City.
There's a tiny pub in Clonakilty called An Teach Beag ("The small house"), down an alleyway at the side of O'Donovan's Hotel in Pearse Street. During the summer months this little pub hosts a closed or semi-closed session virtually every night of the week. A visitor may or may not be allowed to join in - it all depends on the group, which could be a local band - and the visitor might be offered a brief audition (I saw that happen once, and the visitor was politely told that he wasn't quite up to it but was welcome to stay and listen, which he did). I went along to listen several times to the high standard of music there, but not with any real expectation of playing, not as I was in 2006.
One evening I was in at the bar in An Teach Beag with my fiddle case beside me (there was an open session not far away I was going to later) trying not to hear the infernal racket from that bodhran and trying, not very successfully, to listen to the tune being played. The leader spotted me and my fiddle, came over and virtually begged me to join in the session, and would I please sit myself down between him and the bloody bodhran. It soon became obvious why - I was the only available sound barrier! Unfortunately that didn't work. The low frequency thumps from the bodhran were evidently passing through and round me - I could feel my fiddle vibrating in miserable sympathy. The bodhranist was a middle-aged guy thumping away on a full-size bodhran that looked as if it had just that day been bought at a tourist shop. I got the impression he wasn't local. After 10 minutes the leader lost patience, leaned across me and kicked the bodhran out of the guy's hands ... and you know the rest from my previous post.
The session settled down after that, the leader's blood pressure returned to normal, I was able to play a fair number of the tunes and, on being invited, started off a couple of sets.
A few weeks ago, I asked a bodhran player to stop. It happens quite often, and I didn't even remember this specific time. But the offender came up to me the other day and moaned about it (had a grudge). I said I didn't remember but that it would have been for either playing too loud or out of time, or both. He was affronted, he said that I was playing out of time with him. ha ha
Michael, that's called 'putting the cart before the horse,' and bodhran players should understand this. Especially since there are so many visual clues; the bodhran is round like a wheel, and a guy playing one looks more like a cart than anyone else in the session.
I don't like bodhran players who can't play properly in time or in rhythm either. It might throw off the pianist or guitarist who is trying to accompany the melody players.
At a session in San Antonio, Texas approximately ten years ago, there were three female bodhran players sitting to my left. Amazingly enough, all three women were playing exactly together and not missing any beats or messing up the rhythm either.
The other day I was at a teaching session that followed on from a multi-instrument workshop. There were three bodhranists there but only one bodhran between them - one that belonged to the tutor, so they swapped it around. The two who weren't currently in possession played air-bodhran. The effect was very good, and certainly to be recommended.
Goodness me Michael, I never had you down as an optimist. Surely an eternity-long bodhran solo providing the accompaniment whilst your own private demon repeatedly prods you in the dangly bits is the more likely outcome.
Dispite being deeply cynical, I shall remain an eternal optomist. And, of course, there aint no inescapable hell or heaven. Just those of your own making.
Despite the fact that all three women were playing bodhrans, they were actually contributing to the session. Since I was a guest who had been graciously allowed to sit in and participate in this session despite the fact that I was a foreigner from out-of-state, I kept quiet and (literally) played along with the rest of the musicians. Since northern Mexico (otherwise known as Texas) is a "foreign" country, they have different customs and traditions and do things differently from other countries such as Scotland.
I was at a session last month where there were four bodhran players. One consisted of the player was in the 'house' band that hosted the bi-monthly session, and the other 3 were semi-regulars. The house bodhran player played 70% of the time, getting up from time to time to refresh his Guiness, have a smoke, or say hi to friends of the band that came to eat and listen to the session. While he was playing, the other 3 either sat out and patiently waited their turn, or played along so quietly you really didn't hear them over the house player. When he was up having a drink, the other 3 played in rotation according to who was 'up' next to play. Very low key and consciously done with respect to 'too many beaters spoil the broth'.
might reget this tomorow
might reget this tomorow
Im p*ssed on jamesons listening to Mick O'Brien 's Teampall an Ghleanntáin of Kity Lies Over cd and it is wonderfull. I mention it cos of the contrast.
This site is great but sometimes it just makes you spit.
Firstly
newbies/learners/listeners are not idiots; we're people with passion for music some with a life of listening and loving music and this site treats you like there is something wrong with you.
I know people will come and go into this site and in an out of ITM and dissappear. but the stayers will stay and there is this feeling given off on this site (and it is over whelming sometimes) that says if you've not played for at least ten years then your f*cked
and that affects the amount of people who stay
Its not the lligs or the Floss's; Ive enjoyed equally Lligs "serves em right" to anthrax bodhran makers and Boatpipers poetry. its the in betweenies ; the showoffs ridiculers mockers and destroyers. ..and I've felt myself following.
I know I'm an idealist and a nieave however you spell thant feckinword and I'm sure some w*nker will put me right.
Just spare a thought . the experienced players have a responsibility but when you get together sometimes thats when its worst.
you love this music
share it with some thought-
♫ beautifully drunk and you to be sober ♪
Joe
ps I promise to reply tommorow when sober
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: might reget this tomorow
It's obvious the survival of this music depends on
new players. Particularly young people and children; those
of us already playing should really bend over backwards to be
nice to young people when they show up at their session.
It's a pity you can't tell for sure anything about the people who
write to the yellaboard; maybe they are who they say they are;
maybe not. I personally haven't misrepresented myself here.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Hup
Re: might reget this tomorow
♫ beautifully drunk and you to be sober ♪
My favorite mondgreen of the day.
At least, I've always heard the line as "you to be drunk and me to be sober"... but I think I like yours better.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: might reget this tomorow
Joe, you've been a good addition here so far. Strike me as someone who'd be good crack at a session. Good on you.
But....
This music will endure as long as people care enough to play it well and with heart and generosity. Not all newcomers (or old hangers on) give a rip. So, just like in a meatspace session. trying to welcome everyone isn't necessarily healthy. Sheer quantity can sometimes dilute quality.
Some people come here for a laugh, just as some people go to sessions every week for twenty years just to trot out their 5 tunes and swill a free pint. Others here live this music and take it dead serious (though these same people often have the keenest senses of humor). Like any group, you cozy up to the friendlies and let the others p*ss where they lay.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: might reget this tomorow
Well it's tomorrow now. Did you remember your promise?
I felt the same at first and almost threw in my cards. I quickly realized, though, that it is better not trying to change anything here, and pointless getting upset.
Some people do and say stupid things, especially after self-administration of pleasure-inducing substances. Ignore the idiots, help when you can, ask when you want something, and remember that you are not inferior to anybody: it's just that nobody else has noticed. And don't swear, it's not nice even with asterisks.
How's your head?
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by gam
Re: might reget this tomorow
Well, the world's full of people who are going to knock what you do. After five decades of playing this music I have the following pieces of advice. The music you're setting out to play is not at all understood by those who dont play it, or dance to it or who listen to it fairly obsessively. You're in a vwry small camp. Most of the people who play this music will be welcoming, but maybe warily so. We've seen newcomers land at our door hundreds of times who look as if they may be promising companions. And as often as we've been delighted to see them blossom, we've also been dismayed by the large numbers who've gone adrift. There are many ways we've disappointed. The promising player who just doesnt put the effort into picking up new tunes, the promising player who wants to develop his/her stock of tunes too fast to the extent that they don't really know any more than a handful of tunes well even though they've got the notes for hundreds, the promising player who feels that the music could do with a bit of gentrification and so starts 'rocking it up' or 'jazzing' it or so on.
But, if you're serious about the music, it'll show through. You earn respect in this game, it isn't granted automatically. If you've got heart and feeling and an awareness of your place in the music and an awareness of the importance of this music in defining what it"s meant, what it means and what it will mean to be Irish, then you'll get through.
You've got a bit langered last night and felt a bit angry. Fair enough. But think how you can use that passion and anger to your advantage. Dont turn it on others. Focus it on your playing. Use it to your advantage.
Remember - anybody who gets Mick and Caoimhin's playing, gets the music. If you understand what they're playing, as you obviously do, then you'll understand how and why they play the music as they do. And you might want to incorporate that how and why into your own playing. Don't worry too much about what anybody else thinks of that - if you've got the how and the why in your heart, it'll come out through your hands soon enough.
Good luck and God bless from one banjo player (God help us) to another.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Seamie Lyons
Re: might reget this tomorow
Hi Joe!
I hope you had a good night, that you enjoyed your sup, and didn’t wake up suffering, physically or emotionally.
There are some of your comments I’ve felt and experienced, not just here at The Session, but in life in general.
I have shared and understood some of those feelings here too, sometimes by contributing to another’s thread.
One of the things I have found is that where and when there are genuine people, they will be there to help, guide, advise and, maybe most importantly, listen.
I think from the responses already posted that you have found some people who do read and then think about their response.
I, like many on this journey, have gone through some hard times, sometimes a lack of confidence, others just hard going, and recently an injury which prevented me from playing.
Believe me, there are some wonderful members here who have taken the time to drop a line and wish well. Those messages are priceless. Likewise, I hope I might have encouraged others, maybe beginners or others with a technical problem, or similarly, hard times.
But that’s like life I think, and generally this site is representative of the many differing types of people you would meet on a day to day basis.
And in a little respect for your comments I quote an old Roman quotation which goes “In vino, veritas!”
If you still feel that, great! If not, then there is always the chance to start another day, look ahead and be positive.
All the best,
Brian x
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: might reget this tomorow
Hey Joe (as someone once said),
).
> nieave however you spell thant feckinword and I'm sure >some w*nker will put me right.
I'm your man there: its "naive"
Or as I like to think of it "Evian" spelled backwards. Think on that the next time you consider spending £1.50 on something that comes out of a tap for nothing. (Its realising this that has made naive one of the few words I'm confident about spelling
- chris
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: might reget this tomorow
talk of "naive" and Chris will appear
actually, it's quite a good mnemonic
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by sashiko calico
Re: might reget this tomorow
Hallelujah brothers and sisters, let's love one another right now.
'Coz I'll be asleep soon and it will be too late.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: might reget this tomorow
As a beginner I agree with you some people need to remember when they were starting I actually believe some people here enjoy ridiculing people and in the end they damage the tradition so even though they can play they are no addition to the tradition and others need to remember they were welcomed with open arms when the decided to live in Ireland from foriegn shores
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by glengarslasher
Re: might reget this tomorow
Well I did promise... feel crap, dehydrated and a bit of a whiney prat Thank you for your responses;
Hup - me neither
Miss Lonelyhearts- thanks for not letting people p*ss where they lay
Seamie, Gam, Brian- thanks
Jon - i preferred mine too
I had a great night and learnt how to spell niave, cheers chris
Can we move on now
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: might reget this tomorow
In all this pleasantry though, let's not miss the original posting, naive or no. Some of the comments here are unnecessarily nasty. If I received one of them at a session I would not be back and I don't think I'm some fragile flower. I find it hard to believe that some of the slaggers would have accepted similar treatment when they first started out.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by nfldbox
Re: might reget this tomorow
Good thread, despite the redundancy.
And I agree, we can all try harder to be nice.
It would seem we will always have "outsiders" coming onto the scene and "old hands" with a conveniently short memory, eager to abuse and belittle them.
(at least till we have successfully discouraged an entire generation, and then the tradition will die a most just, though miserable, death).
In the meantime, I think it perhaps a bit evian to expect any better or worse form this group here gathered than any other motley assemblage of humans.
All the usual virtues and vices are represented well here, and especially those associated with pursuing an obscure retro cultural phenomenon like ITM - your "experts", your "stars", your "critics", your "hangers-on", your "name droppers", and, once in awhile, a person who just loves the music and loves sharing their enthusiasm/passion/addiction.
Sounds like just another day of business as usual, here on Earth, with fallible imperfect mortals.
Good Luck, all.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Piece
Re: might reget this tomorow
I think we need to remember what sessions are FOR.
Sessions aren't about 'preserving' the music - that's already done - we have archives and recordings, so if anyone wants to know how your granddaddy played a tune, they can look it up and hear it first hand, they don't need to rely on you being able to imitate his style.
No, sessions are about USING the music - getting pleasure out of it, and more importantly giving pleasure to others. And if that means changing tunes, or adapting your style so it sits more comfortably on modern ears, then so be it. A tradition is a living thing, it evolves. You can be sure your granddaddy didn't just play what his granddaddy played, he brought in new tunes, ornamentation and styles that he heard outside the tradition. So why should we not be doing the same? If a newby comes to your session who isn't totally immersed in your own tradition, so what? It is no reason to look down on him. If he makes good music, accept and enjoy.
A session isn't a museum piece, recreating some romanticised past, it is a social gathering - people getting together to ENJOY THEMSELVES. For me a big part of that enjoyment comes from welcoming newcomers, listening to what they have to offer, and helping them get to understand my music. If that means slowing down occasionally, or playing hackneyed old chestnuts that they are familiar with that's fine. I'd far rather play the Kesh with a newby than listen to the local hero thrash through yet another obscure and tuneless reel, just because it is steeped in 'tradition'.
A good session has space for everyone - you're not recording an album, it doesn't matter if tunes aren't played perfectly by the whole company. The only thing that matters is that people ENJOY being part of it.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by skreech
Re: might reget this tomorow
Hear hear!!
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: might reget this tomorow
to a beginner working their way towards playing in sessions, this place is a goldmine in so many ways.
but the critisism and nastiness and intolerance scared me as a beginner; i'm sure there are some who after reading the poison here have shied away from taking the plunge in a real session.
there have been some loud critics on here who i have eventually met since i started playing in sessions.
At least 2 were far better at vitriol than jigs & reels.
in one case the critics playing sounds like a bullock farting in an empty corn silo.
i was surpised, from the way this person posted here, you'd have thought they were a virtuoso, but it really wasnt the case.
its very easy in anonymous forums like this to talk the talk, and a few who scream the loudest can't walk the walk.
critism is fine, as long as it comes from a wise source.....
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by one nation under chicken
Re: might reget this tomorow
In veritas Uisce Beatha indeed!
Mr. Lyons, spot on:
"Most of the people who play this music will be welcoming, but maybe warily so. We've seen newcomers land at our door hundreds of times who look as if they may be promising companions. And as often as we've been delighted to see them blossom, we've also been dismayed by the large numbers who've gone adrift. There are many ways we've disappointed."
...and there are those of us who don't care how many times we get jilted. We're the dumb lovers always ready to open our arms and embrace again and again, no matter how many times we get hurt, to continue the analogy.
Then, there are those who just can't do it anymore, can't be 'arsed', are sick and tired of being nice over and over again. Why?
Mr. Lyons again:
"There are many ways we've disappointed…"
So, that's why. For every amadán like me ready to smile and welcome, no matter what, over and over again, like some demented Sisyphus and his rock, there's a counterbalance. Even in our little neck of the musical and cultural world there is balance.
Now be a good lad and pass that stuff over here, my morning coffee needs some assistance.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
Someone call for a counterbalance to SWFL?
Sorry, I only use Jameson's for Irish coffees. 
Now, Crested Ten, that I'll take neat, or a nice single malt. Where are ye Silver, where's that single malt. Crack it open and lest have a few tunes, maybe even, after enough of it, some singing too. Do you like Simon and Garfunkle, how about "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"?
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by ceolachan
Sheesh, SWFL, that's single malt, not orangeaid... And for the sake of us all, stop gargling with it...
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: might reget this tomorow
I tend to issue wind-ups and leg-pulls but hope people realise it's not at *them*, but at the drollnesses of, well, most things - musicians, instruments, The Music, the places Session members inhabit, the rest of it.
I've had no reason to bite off anyone's head here, have no wish to, and hope I haven't done it to any newbie by accident.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by nicholas
Show your teeth marks here... There, on my right calf, I'm sure that one is from Nicholas. It took forever to clear up that infection, and a load of very unpleasant antibiotics...
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: might reget this tomorow
Oh Eosaph, that was a fine drunken post. This site is like a circus sometimes. The trollings, the slaggings, the wind-ups, it's all part of the show.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: might reget this tomorow
I cannot think of anything to add, so I'll just steal this naive quote from Mark Twain, "When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
Oh well, it's just coffee ~ they have no Jameson's in this cafe.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
[hiccup] Shure Mishter C, I'll shing with yuhs!
LAAAK AAA BRIIIIDGE OVA TRUBBELD WAAAATER, AH WILL LAAAAY ME DOWN...
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
That's hardcore.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
Jimmy B, if this site is like a circus sometimes, are we doing it for the benefit of Mr. Kite?
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
another stolen quote;
Re: "Session tunes for classical guitar" ~ Posted by L.L.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21840/comments#comment453807
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
Just stumbled in this A.M. to find this thread.
Ahh..to be young again (not that I'm very old, I don't fart dust yet) and oh how the drunken rantings can open open some interesting doors. Can't they? Tend to close em at times too.
Seems like the more seriously I take the music, the less seriously I must take myself. If I let every jab from a dolt get to me, I'd be uttering in complete nonsense.....hold on, hmmm...I do utter in complete nonsense....regularly.....oh well,
Note to self..... Don't take yourself too seriously, seriously...ahh yeah seriously.........wait, did I say don't take it too seriously?...Well if I didn't, that's what I meant to say.
Ok, I'm better now. I didn't take it seriously.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: might reget this tomorow
Seamie said "There are many ways we've disappointed. " I think he meant either "There are many ways we're disappointed" or "There are many ways we've been disappointed. " But I like what he actually wrote. I know this might sound like I take this all too seriously but I think I have learned a lot more from the times I have disappointed others than from assumptions about the way others have disappointed me. As a teacher of some forty years and a parent of some thirty, "I've disappointed" all too often.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by nfldbox
Re: might reget this tomorow
Just found a site which may come in handy next time the Jameson's is poured;
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/nieve.html
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
Yes, Ceolachan, we should leave the gargling to the late Spike Jones and his City Slickers.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
Actually, I think Spike and the boys were able to gargle on cue, weren't they?
"Bridge Over Troubled Water" is one of my favorite songs by Simon Garfunkel.
Try not to become too starry-eyed Boatpiper and take yourself Siriusly--especially not during the dog days of summer. The price could be astronomical.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
My, the posts have been getting deep in the past few days.
Our Heir to the Throne, aka WannabeWarrenBuffet, gives me an expensive single malt for Chirstmas each year. Concern for the ongoing welfare of my liver prevents me from making short work of it. I am allowed one glass per year.
It's difficult to share in the virtual world. It could make these posts even more interesting
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by zippydw
Re: might reget this tomorow
"Back on the bar stool
We had it so right
but the morning just washed it away
I can't deny it felt good on night
but never so good on the day"
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by eiluned
Re: might reget this tomorow
As far as I can see, from my acquaintance with local grain silos (eg the Boythorpe Cropstore), the only way to get a bullock in would be in extremely small pieces, which would severely limit its value at the abbatoir! Does your correspondent wish to ruin our farmers who might be tempted to perform his thought experiment (I can only assume that he is proposing some idea like that of Schroedinger's (SP?) cat) ?
Your ever faithful but pedantic servant ......... ..
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
Zippy, if the posts get too deep for you, try not to drown.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
Ceol, I cracked open that whisky I told you about at 4am last night and had a wee dram. It was amazing. We weren't playing Simon and Garfunkle though (and ever since Celebrity Jeopardy on SNL, my mind jumps to Sean Connery saying "I Garfunkled your mother last night!" Anyway... moving on). I think my mates had Best Cheese of the 80s playing on Spotify.
I like this site for the banter, the craic, the surreal and random off topic discussions, and aye, the occasional serious discussion about tunes and sessions.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: might reget this tomorow
Some good thoughts in this thread! I always try to give new posters the benefit of the doubt, and try to give them information rather than belittle their ignorance!
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: might reget this tomorow
Surreal? What surreal discussions?
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
I'm leery of sessions where people think that "The only thing that matters is that people ENJOY being part of it." Such events usually devolve into unmusical gibberish.
I'll gladly play any tune at any pace to encourage a novice, but I'll also expect them to listen an learn when the music rises above their abilities.
Some of the worst sessions are those commandeered by novices who resent anyone who can actually play the music.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: might reget this tomorow
"I always try to give new posters the benefit of the doubt, and try to give them information rather than belittle their ignorance!"
AAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not take things too seriously
I must not drink and post
I must not drink and post
I must not post and drink
I must not post drinks...
I wonder what the record is for the number of different mental states in one thread?
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: might reget this tomorow
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Miss Lonelyhearts: "I'm leery of sessions where people think that "The only thing that matters is that people ENJOY being part of it." Such events usually devolve into unmusical gibberish."
Sessions aren't compulsory, so presumably the only reason people are there is for enjoyment. (Actually, I can think of two other reasons why people might be there: 1. You're being paid to lead the session, in which case you have a duty to do what others want, not what pleases yourself. 2. You're there simply to show off your prowess, which might make you feel good, but it normally makes for a pretty miserable session for everyone else.)
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Miss Lonelyhearts:
"I'll gladly play any tune at any pace to encourage a novice, but I'll also expect them to listen an learn when the music rises above their abilities.
Some of the worst sessions are those commandeered by novices who resent anyone who can actually play the music."
I completely disagree with that. The worse sessions are those commandeered by experts who simply whant to show theere talents, regardless of everyone else.
A good session is one where most people are playing most of the time. And if most people there are beginners or intermediates, then that is the level it should be running at - if there are one or two 'pros' and one or two total beginners, then there should be one or two fast sets and one or two real slow ones for those people, but the majority of what is played should suit the majority of players.
If you get frustrated playing in sessions with people who are not as good as yourself, then perhaps it is time to think about why you attend sessions. If you are that good, then perhaps it is time to form a band - gather together a few musicians who are as good as yourelf, and give PERFORMANCES to display your talents. But a session isn't a performance. And if you are really so good that you get frustrated by lesser musicians, then you have completely the wrong attitude. You shouldn't see yourself as a 'star' being held back by a lousy backing band, you should see yourself as a tutor and mentor, whose role within the session is to pass on your wisdom, to help others improve. Not simply to perform. Take that attitude and I think you'll find you can get a lot of pleasure out of even the crappiest session, without having to trample on the learners.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by skreech
Re: might reget this tomorow
But if you are sat with two or three of your mates merrily playing away at a fair old nip, like you do most weeks and have done for years, are you saying it's rude not to stop all this and turn to O'Carolan dirges for the rest of the evening if a dozen beginners roll in?
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
Eosaph, feel free to post drinks. Send them to TheSilverSpear, the Oran Mor, Glasgow, UK.
I like fancy single malts.
Can't we just accept that sessions can both be of a high-ish musical standard, patient with polite beginners but at the same time not descending to the lowest common denominator, and ALSO be open and welcoming to everyone, ever, who wants to contribute to the musical process. Granted, I think this is unlikely to happen in the *same* session but there are sessions which fit both these descriptions to varying degrees. There are sessions where it would be totally acceptable to play a zillion O'Carolan dirges all night long and sessions where that would go over like a lead balloon. Instead bemoaning people's attitude, screech, just find a session which suits you. They are all different!
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: might reget this tomorow
Thanks SS, but I do have a session that suits me, one where some very high level players are involved, yet I've never seen anyone turned away or made to feel unwelcome.
It is Miss L that seems to have some sort of problem.
But then I'm in Scotland, not Ireland. Maybe attitudes are different.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by skreech
Re: might reget this tomorow
Well, Miss L is in the States. I'm in the UK, but I'm with her on this one. I for one would hate to be condescended to. Let the great players play what they want. Sometimes novices may be able to join in. They'll probably even be encouraged to. They'll get more out of it this way. And it doesn't mean they're unwelcome.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: might reget this tomorow
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by llig leahcim "But if you are sat with two or three of your mates merrily playing away at a fair old nip, like you do most weeks and have done for years, are you saying it's rude not to stop all this and turn to O'Carolan dirges for the rest of the evening if a dozen beginners roll in?"
Yes.
In reality it doesn't even take a dozen, just one or two. Our session quite often morphs in exactly that way in the tourist season. And it usually makes for a cracking evening, as we search for stuff that is within their repertoire/capability, but still good tunes. If all you want to do is rip through the same old racing-reels week after week, with people you know, it's probably best done at home or in a rehearsal room, not a pub.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by skreech
Re: might reget this tomorow
Surely it is rude for someone to turn up to a session who has never been there before and expect the session to completely change to accomodate them and their wishes/capabilities making the night a sudden heap of sh*te for the regulars. I am not saying that you shouldn't make allowances for visitors and try to make them feel welcome but there has to be limits.
Besides which if a session is best when most people are playing most of the time then that affords little opportunity for the attendees to hear and learn new tunes and so expand their repertoire. Also if a beginner never gets to hear a proper session with decent tunes played well because the other musicians are so accomodating then they will be hampered in their own development.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: might reget this tomorow
I should point out that I have not read 90% of this thread - just the last few exchanges.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: might reget this tomorow
Well said Silver Spear!
Skreech, I realize what Lonelyhearts said sounded a bit harsh, but I've been in a few of the sessions he has described. A group of eager novices over-run a pub and get upset when people play "non-approved or spontaneous sets" that are not from a book. It's a rare thing, thank Jeebus, but the unlucky can still stumble into them.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: might reget this tomorow
Well ... rude I am then. But we know that.
But another point of disagreement is where you say that the best sessions are where most of the people are playing most of the time. Nope. I'd say it's more like half the people are playing half the time, in various combinations.
You gotta have room to breath, have a natter, a smoke ... and most important of all, have a listen.
Everyone playing all the time is a horrendous wall of nothingness. I'll bet you even extend that to having all the bloody strummers and, god forbid, the feckin thumpers away at it all bloody night too.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
OK, I didn't express myself very well - I guess I didn't mean 'most of the people playing most of the time'. But certainly most of the people should be INCLUDED most of the time. That is to say playing tunes within the capability and tastes of the majority - tunes that they could play (or listen to and stand a chance of learning) when they're not having a fag/natter/pish.
Nothing is black and white, just because there are begginners there doesn't mean you mustn't play the fast stuff, just that it shouldn't dominate. The majority of the music should be inclusive. Make sure everyone has the chance to starts sets they want to play, or if you find yourself leading the session and starting everything, think you way round the table - start a set that you think is appropriate to each person in turn. Who knows, you might find you enjoy the challenge, and land up digging out tunes you'd forgotten you knew.
As for the strummeers and thumpers, if it happens as a one-off, yeah, just accept it. If it happens regularly and is spoiling things for everyone else, there are plenty of ways of dealing with it tactfully, without making anyone feel unwelcome. Always remember that one or two of those strummers and thumpers might move on to better things once they become familiar with the music. They may be the future of your precious tradition.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by skreech
Re: might reget this tomorow
"Can't we just accept that sessions can both be of a high-ish musical standard, patient with polite beginners but at the same time not descending to the lowest common denominator, and ALSO be open and welcoming to everyone, ever, who wants to contribute to the musical process."
HEAVENS NO SS! What are you, some sort of reasonable purveyor of logic? Be gone with ya! You will all stop what you are doing when the n00bs arrive and proceed to play nothing but “Oh, the Britches Full of Stitches” for the next 45 minutes. I don’t care if the ghosts of Padraig O’Keefe and Johnny O’Leary are running the session. If even one newbie arrives the music will STOP in its tracks and we shall play reels at slow hornpipe speed for the remainder of the evening.
Whew. Sorry. Sarcasm outburst, my apologies.
OK, I run two sessions. Sunday is the big day in the pub. We’ll brake for beginners, but then it’s back on the autobahn. You want to play slow all night and pick ‘em apart, you’re more than welcome to come hang out in the kitchen some night during the week and I’ll upchuck them slowly at ya, get you up to snuff for Sundays so we can have a good time.
Ya got beef with that? Try poultry. Maybe some seafood.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
"...think you way round the table - start a set that you think is appropriate to each person in turn..."
Grand advice skreech. I often amuse myself by cooking up sets on the fly based on what the various assembled folks know.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
SilverSpear is a "reasonable purveyor of logic"? I never thought someone would describe her like that. Are you insulted or complimented SilverSpear?
As for trying beef, poultry, or seafood, I think I would prefer the dead cow or the dead fishes because eating poultry is such a fowl idea.
And, what is furthermore, if you don't perform the proper ceremonies and rituals to properly satisfy the gods before you eat a dead chicken, you run the risk of being haunted by the soul of the dead chicken. Yes, I am talking about the dreaded Poultrygeist.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
fauxcelt- I've moved into a strage in my life where I search for the simplicity in things....Divinity being in the details supposedly, I am looking for salvation in the concept.
Or perhaps, I am taking the advice that if things start getting to deep, stop digging.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by zippydw
Re: might reget this tomorow
You've moved onto a strage? Is that like a canal barge or something? I've often thought that might be fun ...
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: might reget this tomorow
I wondered about that too, so I looked it up. Strage is Italian for massacre, also heartbreaker.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
I think it's a combination of a strange stage, which can be a bit of a massacre and a heart breaker, especially if it's an unwelcoming strange stage.
Though sometimes strange stages can be nice to perform on, not that I perform at sessions, mind you. Y'all got to pay me for performances on strange stages...or even familiar ones, for that matter.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
It's quite a leap to take what anyone here has said from the perspective of better, more experienced players to then assume: "If all you want to do is rip through the same old racing-reels week after week, with people you know, it's probably best done at home or in a rehearsal room, not a pub."
That sounds like a horrid session, too, and in fact is what a lot of novice-dominated sessions are like (though "racing" may be an overstatement).
There's a presumption in this whole thread that people who are inexperienced in this music somehow deserve *equal* consideration, both in this forum when they express their (often uninformed) opinions and at sessions when they expect everyone else to play at their level. And I think that's just silly.
Some opinions are more informed, more thoughtful, and hence more insightful than others. Some session players are more skilled, more saturated with tunes and nyah, and more musical than others.
Personally, I make it my main priority to be welcoming, considerate, generous, and inclusive as possible toward novices and anyone who shows interest in this music. At my local sessions, I'm the person who knows everyone else's tunes, and my choice of what to play is routinely based on which tunes will include players who've been sitting on their hands.
In return, I hope for some reciprocity. (I say "hope" because I've learned through wretched experience not to "expect" it.) I hope that newbies are open minded enough to acknowledge the limits of their abilities and be willing to listen and learn from the better players, and to enjoy it and take some inspiration from when the music soars beyond their current abilities.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: might reget this tomorow
"Why play in a pub / in public?"
Because it's not just hopeless fools that turn up with instruments (though we know this is the norm). It's because really good players often turn up, especially if the place has a reputation ...
... and reputations require looking after. I'm not going to sit all night surrounded by bloody strummers and thumpers. Not for even one night. Word gets around. Zero tolerance is required
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
If you go outside Sandy Bells you can actually see the marks where Llig told the offending person to 'bite the curb'. The Council keep on trying to shift the stains, meanwhile the pub management are thinking of having a plaque installed.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: might reget this tomorow
It just doesn't do any good to suffer fools gladly or otherwise, and it helps the fools themselves least of all.
It's a two way street. Beginners are welcomed, providing they are:
"...willing to listen and learn from the better players, and to enjoy it and take some inspiration from when the music soars beyond their current abilities." (Miss L)
After all, there but for the grace. How else did we all learn?
You don't learn a thing from being coddled, or having your foolishness suffered, gladly or otherwise.
Perhaps you don't want to learn. You don't want to improve. You want to happily muddle along at the lowest common denominator.
That's fine, but why would you demand that your poor attitude be inflicted on others? From others you are trying to learn from?
Now that’s rude.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
"...ON others you are trying to learn from..."
Poor grammar is pretty rude too! Heavens! My slip is showing! Where's my trousers and wig glue?
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
That is surely the first time, ever, someone has called me a "reasonable purveyor of logic."
I'm saying, you *shouldn't* do anything at a session. There are sessions which screech would love because they do go out of their way to accommodate everyone and make sure everyone gets a chance to play. There are also sessions which play a kind of obscure repertoire of tunes at the speed they want to play them at and the chances of them seeing a beginner attending one night and shifting their whole repertoire are pretty fecking slim.
Obviously this music depends on new players being encouraged and brought along. Duh. But at the same time, there IS a hierarchy based on skill and experience. Bouzouki player Roger Landes, at a workshop I attended about five years ago, called it a meritocracy. I more or less agree with him. And it's more apparent in some sessions than others. Deal with it. It's not always easy but at the same time I wouldn't have it any other way, and I speak as someone who in most respects is very much at the bottom of it. However it is possible to crawl your way up as you get better and learn more.
I wouldn't *want* every session to bend over backwards for learners and play the Kesh at 50bpm whenever someone wanted it. The music, the tradition, needs the high level sessions as much as it needs the open friendly, beginner ones. That's where the energy and the nyah is. The beginners who truly care will eventually get to those sessions and feel welcomed.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: might reget this tomorow
Bushmills, next time.
Yes, I know, I know, but bigotry cuts both ways. It is
simply the superior product. And the guard at the
distillery gate's eerie resemblance to John Candy
teaches us that reincarnation is a happy fact.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: might reget this tomorow
Re: might reget this tomorow
"Why play in a pub / in public?"
Because it's not just hopeless fools that turn up with instruments (though we know this is the norm). It's because really good players often turn up, especially if the place has a reputation ...
... and reputations require looking after. I'm not going to sit all night surrounded by bloody strummers and thumpers. Not for even one night. Word gets around. Zero tolerance is required
Llig, you sound as if you have an inferiority complex.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: might reget this tomorow
Not from that statement he doesn't. He sounds like he knows what he wants. It shows confidence. It might seem like arrogance, but there's the rub ~ it's intended (if I may infer) as humility, perhaps even reverence.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
Hey, it's not my fault you made such calm and reasoned sense!
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
I think what some beginners find disheartening is that there really aren't that many beginner-novice sessions around. I sure haven't found any that I wouldn't have to travel 4-6 hours one way, and in this economy and time, that just isn't economically feasible for the average jane or joe. And, because of the reasons many have listed above and in other threads, we are intimidated to show up at established sessions. Seems like sometimes you have to know someone to be "in". I have yet to be in a session for these two reasons. That is sad. I would really like to try.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: might reget this tomorow
That is sad, fiddlechick. Sounds like you need a local study partner. If there is an established session near you, would one of them mentor you?
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
The "best" session starts slowly, where new players are accommodated by the few of the experienced who turn up and bit by bit, with more and more of the more experienced arriving, it changes until the new players probably can't play anything but sit in the warm glow of the earlier generous acceptance and the present furor of the fast complex playing.
All this takes, beyond pleasant attitudes, is a recognition that if you are a newbie, you come early, and if you want to play something difficult at speed, you wait until later.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by nfldbox
Re: might reget this tomorow
Really?confidence?no I think that statement shows lack of confidence , a player scared that people will judge him because he was in the same session as thumpers strummers.
a really good player like SeamusCreagh,or JackieDaly knows that his playing is judged purely on his own playing,not on some visiting strummer or thumper.
Lligs mistake is lack of confidence,he should get up and thump the strummers,put a penknife through the bodhran and kick the bodhran out of the door and then kick the bodhran players testicles,and that is just starters
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: might reget this tomorow
ZeroTolerance is not enough,Lligs problem is he is not aggressive enough.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: might reget this tomorow
Fiddlechick, follow SWFL's suggestion and find a mentor, or at least someone else who loves this music to learn with. I know it's harder in some places than others--I've lived in remote, small towns a lot, far from any other Irish trad players. So sometimes it was near impossible. But I took advantage of every opportunity to hear and meet other musicians, and the more you announce your interest, the more likely someone will eventually come out of the woodwork to share in or mentor your playing.
I teach music for a living, and I run a weekly tune learning session. But I also *daily* mentor other players, at no cost to them, simply because that's how the music and the ethos of this tradition is passed along (and was passed along to me by others).
Until you find someone near you, you might also try online Skype lessons with James Kelly.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: might reget this tomorow
Actually, Zippy, I think both of us should stop digging in this discussion because we have gotten in deep enough already. There seem to be plenty of other people who want to keep digging in this discussion so maybe we should get out of their way.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
Dick, I'll agree to disagree. Fiddlechick7, it's good to see you're bringing up those valid comments. SWFL Fiddler & Will (aka Miss Lonely) are definitely concerned about helping you find a way to play with others who love the dance tunes. Even if there is a single person close to where you live, seek him or her out & make the most of the small things. Don't be too disheartened!
Cheers, wish I had something more concrete.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Just a little more digging ~ in the archives
"Hi & finding playing company in remote areas"
Posted on October 28th 2003 by kaarne
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2308/comments#comment42787
I enjoyed reading this thread. Thought it might lighten someone's heart.
# Posted on February 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
Yup. It's kind of sh*t when you feel you're learning this music all alone and the only sessions in town are fairly high level ones which don't seem at all interested in you. I've been there. I'm sure a fair few other posters on this website have had their moments as well. Ideally there would be learner's sessions and you'd find people at your level with whom you can explore the music with, or a mentor as Will suggested. Sometimes you can find that, and it's awesome when you do. Sometimes you can't and you have to struggle alone with it for a while yet.
# Posted on February 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: might reget this tomorow
It's a bit weird being goaded by an "anon head".
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
A few years ago, at a session in Clonakilty, I witnessed a bodhran actually being kicked out of its owner's hands by a very irate session leader who requested said bodhran owner to desist and depart the pub forthwith (or words to that effect - this is a family website!), which the wretch did.
The bodhranist was an out-of-town visitor, not competent on the instrument, who ignored all requests varying from the initially polite to the short and sharp to tone it down and actually allow the other musicians and the punters to hear the music. In the view of everyone present the leader was well justified in his action, and certainly would have had no cause to regret it on the morrow. No jury would have dared to convict, either
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: might reget this tomorow
Clonakilty? You've got to be kidding me - surely that was the wardrobe company in Braveheart?
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: might get this tomorow
Why, do you play bodhran?
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
It's interesting how many people want to define a session in one generalized form, and usually with some sort of democratic ideal. A session is a myriad of things based on whatever the group of people having it want it to be. It can be novices and beginners sitting around a table performing together the tunes they've learned at a comfortable pace, or it can be seasoned veterans sitting around sharing their favorite tunes with high energy and snappy tempos. It can be anything and everything between. The bottom line is that when you encounter any given session it's your responsibility to sus out what sort of session it is and whether or not you're capable or willing to contribute to it. It is NOT your job to expect it to conform to whatever generic session you think all sessions should be. Quite simple really.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: might reget this tomorow
Bodhran no - banjo yes; and frankly, a few scenes could of done with the lift : )
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Eòsaph
Joe, you may not remember this, . . .
but how about a fresh start? "Firstly
newbies/learners/listeners are not idiots; we're people with passion for music some with a life of listening and loving music and this site treats you like there is something wrong with you. . .
I know I'm an idealist and a nieave however you spell thant feckinword and I'm sure some w*nker will put me right."
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
I've racked my brains Random but I'm sorry I have no idea what you're on about..Joking apart I was quite choked by the initial response specially Seamie's advice. Many thanks.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: might reget this tomorow
Joe, what do you honestly think about lazyhound's last post? & about the sessions he attends?
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
& not that I care but who is Julie?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23841/comments#comment496305
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
Phantom hit things on the head!
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by cboody
Re: might reget this tomorow
No, for sure, sessions are not democracies. There's no field of human endeavour that isn't subject to politics and the pecking order and sessions are a paradigm of that fact rather than an exception to it.
I reckon that your standing in a session is a function of:
1. Your playing ability.
2. How long you have been attending that session.
3. The extent of your tune repertoire.
4. Your general contribution to the craic.
5. How regularly you attend the session.
6. The instrument that you play.
If you don't rank highly in these regards then the concessions that the session makes towards you will vary. I guess that some will make none at all, some will bend over backwards, but the majority will toss you the odd bone. But how it is is how it is and there is no point bemoaning the situation. Whichever, the onus of responsibility to achieve inclusivity lies with you, not with them. That's a process which I am going through at the moment. It's not that hard, but it might take a while:
1. Attend regularly, even if you hardly get to play at all.
2. Devote every spare minute to learning tunes and getting your playing ability up to the general level of the session.
3. Focus your energies on the tune sets that are played frequently and which are played at a speed that you can cope with.
4. Show an interest, but don't bombard people with requests for information.
5. Have something up you sleeve if they ask you to kick-off a set.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: might reget this tomorow
Random-
I thought it was a great story, Sounds like he had it coming. I get the feeling you're setting me up for something here? If it was the crack about Clonakilty - no dissrespect intended, The town is new to me and well, its a funny name for a shallow one like me.
Following from other posts; although not new to the music I am new to playing and attending sessions. If learners and experienced players show respect and consideration everyone benefits. I’m happy to sit and listen at sessions and sooner or later I’ll get a nod to play a tune.
If I noodle around and drag the quality down no-one really benefits its disrespecting the music and I probably wont get the nod. I’m very fortunate in that my session usually consists of (including myself) one or two learners and between five and ten very able musicians. If the sessioners were all learners I’d be able to play all night and learn nothing, I don’t find it easy though; I long to play and show off my new tune and I guess my drunken rant was a frustrated “I’m doing all I can here- don’t disrespect my efforts."
But as Rook put very well “...all vices and virtues represented here..”.I’ll live
Julie =Julie Andrews come back at Llig a while back
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: might reget this tomorow
Fair play, Joe! Glad to hear you have no disrespect for the fine sessions being played in Clonakilty. ;)
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: might reget this tomorow
Some background to that memorable session in Clonakilty in 2006 ...
Clonakilty ... a small town near the coast about an hour's drive west along the N71 from Cork City.
There's a tiny pub in Clonakilty called An Teach Beag ("The small house"), down an alleyway at the side of O'Donovan's Hotel in Pearse Street. During the summer months this little pub hosts a closed or semi-closed session virtually every night of the week. A visitor may or may not be allowed to join in - it all depends on the group, which could be a local band - and the visitor might be offered a brief audition (I saw that happen once, and the visitor was politely told that he wasn't quite up to it but was welcome to stay and listen, which he did). I went along to listen several times to the high standard of music there, but not with any real expectation of playing, not as I was in 2006.
One evening I was in at the bar in An Teach Beag with my fiddle case beside me (there was an open session not far away I was going to later) trying not to hear the infernal racket from that bodhran and trying, not very successfully, to listen to the tune being played. The leader spotted me and my fiddle, came over and virtually begged me to join in the session, and would I please sit myself down between him and the bloody bodhran. It soon became obvious why - I was the only available sound barrier! Unfortunately that didn't work. The low frequency thumps from the bodhran were evidently passing through and round me - I could feel my fiddle vibrating in miserable sympathy. The bodhranist was a middle-aged guy thumping away on a full-size bodhran that looked as if it had just that day been bought at a tourist shop. I got the impression he wasn't local. After 10 minutes the leader lost patience, leaned across me and kicked the bodhran out of the guy's hands ... and you know the rest from my previous post.
The session settled down after that, the leader's blood pressure returned to normal, I was able to play a fair number of the tunes and, on being invited, started off a couple of sets.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: might reget this tomorow
ha ha, very good.
A few weeks ago, I asked a bodhran player to stop. It happens quite often, and I didn't even remember this specific time. But the offender came up to me the other day and moaned about it (had a grudge). I said I didn't remember but that it would have been for either playing too loud or out of time, or both. He was affronted, he said that I was playing out of time with him. ha ha
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
Michael, that's called 'putting the cart before the horse,' and bodhran players should understand this. Especially since there are so many visual clues; the bodhran is round like a wheel, and a guy playing one looks more like a cart than anyone else in the session.
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: might reget this tomorow
You have a lot of horses in your sessions?
I've taught mine how to play the piano accordion.
# Posted on February 22nd 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: might reget this tomorow
I don't like bodhran players who can't play properly in time or in rhythm either. It might throw off the pianist or guitarist who is trying to accompany the melody players.
# Posted on February 23rd 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
There were three bodhran players at our session last night- I wonder what the record is?
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: might reget this tomorow
At a session in San Antonio, Texas approximately ten years ago, there were three female bodhran players sitting to my left. Amazingly enough, all three women were playing exactly together and not missing any beats or messing up the rhythm either.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
"playing exactly together and not missing any beats or messing up the rhythm"
But what were they contributing?
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
erm, Michael, did you miss the bit about them being female?
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: might reget this tomorow
The other day I was at a teaching session that followed on from a multi-instrument workshop. There were three bodhranists there but only one bodhran between them - one that belonged to the tutor, so they swapped it around. The two who weren't currently in possession played air-bodhran. The effect was very good, and certainly to be recommended.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: might reget this tomorow
when I go to heaven there'll be air-bodhranists
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
and they all sit around you in their thousands while you play air fiddle. Fun!
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: might reget this tomorow
Hello darkness, my old freind
End the vision that was planted in my brain
Left its seed while I was sleeping
Like silent rain drops fell
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
hi.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: might reget this tomorow
Goodness me Michael, I never had you down as an optimist. Surely an eternity-long bodhran solo providing the accompaniment whilst your own private demon repeatedly prods you in the dangly bits is the more likely outcome.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: might reget this tomorow
Oh dear, mr llig...have you your parachute on?
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: might reget this tomorow
Dispite being deeply cynical, I shall remain an eternal optomist. And, of course, there aint no inescapable hell or heaven. Just those of your own making.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by ...
Re: might reget this tomorow
surely not an eternally-challenged optometrist, llig? there is no inescapable hell? Really? Even the air-bodhranistas? Hmmm.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: might reget this tomorow
Perhaps that's why people suffer bad bodhran playing. Are they imagining some fantasy after-life without bodhran players?
"Oh, it's OK, I'll just suffer along and be rewarded in the afterlife."
I say, seize the day! You only live once! Life is too short to NOT kick bodhrans out of obnoxious hands!
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: might reget this tomorow
Despite the fact that all three women were playing bodhrans, they were actually contributing to the session. Since I was a guest who had been graciously allowed to sit in and participate in this session despite the fact that I was a foreigner from out-of-state, I kept quiet and (literally) played along with the rest of the musicians. Since northern Mexico (otherwise known as Texas) is a "foreign" country, they have different customs and traditions and do things differently from other countries such as Scotland.
# Posted on February 24th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: might reget this tomorow
I was at a session last month where there were four bodhran players. One consisted of the player was in the 'house' band that hosted the bi-monthly session, and the other 3 were semi-regulars. The house bodhran player played 70% of the time, getting up from time to time to refresh his Guiness, have a smoke, or say hi to friends of the band that came to eat and listen to the session. While he was playing, the other 3 either sat out and patiently waited their turn, or played along so quietly you really didn't hear them over the house player. When he was up having a drink, the other 3 played in rotation according to who was 'up' next to play. Very low key and consciously done with respect to 'too many beaters spoil the broth'.
# Posted on February 26th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: might reget this tomorow
I wouldn't mind two gurls playing bodhran at our session if they did it like the gurls in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnuijDieOvY&feature=related
# Posted on February 26th 2010 by Phantom Button
Re: might reget this tomorow
or this gurl
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33959423@N07/3161862133/
# Posted on February 26th 2010 by airport