Hello all! I’m an Ethnomusicology MA student (and bouzouki player) at the University of Limerick, Ireland, and I’m doing a thesis on the Irish Bouzouki in Irish Traditional music, with a section on how the bouzouki is thought of in today’s global Trad music scene.
As a way of getting the opinions of Trad musicians all over the world, I’m posting this in hopes of learning how people feel about the bouzouki as an instrument in Irish Traditional music. Do you love/hate it? Why? Who are your favorite luthiers? What tunings do you think work best? Who are your favorite players? Do you like the percussive or counter-melodic style? Are bouzoukis better for stage groups, sessions, or should they all be used as firewood? If you’re a melody player, do you like bouzouki backing? How do you like them to back your tunes? Are there any instruments that the bouzouki compliments particularly well? And anything else you can think of!!
I’m not here to judge anyone’s opinions or preferences. I just want to know what you think. Everyone’s opinions will be appreciated and respected, and no names will be used in the final presentation of the work. Feel free to ask if you have any questions! Thank you in advance for your thoughts!!
I'm very fond of the work that Donal Lunny has done with Liam O'Flynn and many others. Of the times I've sat with a bouzouki, It's been very enjoyable.
I think it's a fine instrument. It *seems* less likely to ruin a tune than badly-played guitar backing, even if the zouk is being played by a novice. But I don't often sit in with a zoukist, so don't take this remark on trust.
Its make-up,sound and use are very unlike those of the Greek bouzouki, but I won't be pedantic about the name. Though calling it the Irish Bouzouki is no great effort, and I tend to do this.
I've much liked it as backing on albums by Mary Bergin (whistle) and Matt Molloy (flute); I forget precisely who played bouzouki on these (Alec Finn and Donal Lunny, respectively?).
Bouzouki playing in trad music can be and often is quite a nice addition. To my ear, bouzouki playing is good when it's more sparse and melodic than heavily chordal and rhythm-oriented. The bouzouki, in other words, should suggest the chords more than it asserts them, and it should leave a healthy amount of ambiguity, to resolve it only at the climactic moments.
This style of playing, of course, is not suited to all melody playing, or to all tunes, and I suppose a bouzouki basher should be able to do more guitar-like accompaniment when the tune calls for it - like on the last part of the Longford Tinker, for example - just as a guitarist should really be able to back off to a more bouzouki-like approach on the more interesting tunes. But for the most part, the two incline towards very different approaches, and shouldn't be treated as interchangeable.
(I should say that I've played both instruments, in bands and sessions, and I like both instruments when they're well used)
In case the person asking wasn't jiving us: Ethnomusicology can be loosely defined as the study of folk, traditional and popular music in the cultures where they "live."
This yellow sheet is, in fact, a sort of ethnomusicology forum. Aren't you all glad to know you are scholars??
I find bouzouki to be quite a nice addition in sessions. I don't know anything about the tunings of it, but like someone else said, bouzouki seems to be a bit more subtle than guitar. I'm not a super loud flute player, and sometimes, volume wise, I can feel like I'm fighting to be heard over guitar backing. Haven't really had that issue with bouzoukis.
It sounded nice in the session at Bourke's the other night anyway! Good luck with the thesis work.
and it all depends where your definition of trad extends to - if you count ceili bands as trad then subject to the caveat above its's a godsend in a two or three piece band. in a bigger outfit it just adds to the mush and its musical value is lost in the sea of white noise that characterises big fiddle-rich bands
if you mean playing just like my grandad, then it probably wouldn't figure at all
I am a fan of well-played bouzouki in sessions. I like the contrapuntal style of accompaniment more than strummed rhythmic accompaniment, although, the best is a mixture of the two, used to add flavor to the tunes.
I like the bouzouki as it leaves plenty of space for the tune. The colour it adds when crosspicked rather than strummed should be subtle and only ever serve to highlight the tune.
A bit of careful strumming can be good though, and often in a full on session it's the only backing some people like.
To my mind (today, anyway) there have been two revolutionary developments in diddley music in the past half century, both in the area of accompaniment: the introduction of new guitar styles and the introduction of the bouzouki. I love what Alec Finn and Donal Lunny have done with the bouzouki.
Well, I've never been present when a bouzouki ruined a session and (like the mandolin) I can't imagine how it could (even discordant pickings are often too hard to hear), but, I must admit, I've encountered many bouzoukists who seemed to think simply turning up with their instrument in hand (I could rephrase that, but I won't) might open more doors than it should. There were a couple some years back who followed the festival circuit north after Willie Week and clearly believed that bouzouki-in-hand equalled bird-in-the-sack.
I must completely disagree with Bob himself's claim that the only two 'revolutionary developments in diddley music in the past half century' are both connected to accompaniment.
Though the pub session originated in the UK in the late 1940s, it didn't really take off until the mid-1950s and would take another decade after that to spread across Ireland. That must be the most revolutionary development. My second would be the development of the LP.
Then there's the influence of, firstly, Ó Riada and The Chieftains, secondly Planxty and, thirdly, The Bothy Band. OK, the bouzouki was present in both two and three and the guitar in three too, but it was the conglomerate in each case which was paramount in terms of importance.
My personal opinion is that the bouzouki is a better instrument for accompaniment in ITM than the guitar, as the different tuning and stringing leaves more holes for the music, and more ambiguity with the use of 'power chords", chords that only have the tonic and dominant in them, leaving the definition of whether the chord is major or minor to the melody and the listener. Whereas the guitar will have all the notes of the chord within one octave, giving a very 'plummy' middle-range sound.
IMNSHO.
To answer your questions: I like the bozouki as an accompanement, I think it is differne tenough from guitar in most cases to
As a way of getting the opinions of Trad musicians all over the world, I’m posting this in hopes of learning how people feel about the bouzouki as an instrument in Irish Traditional music. Do you love/hate it? Why? Who are your favorite luthiers? What tunings do you think work best? Who are your favorite players? Do you like the percussive or counter-melodic style? Are bouzoukis better for stage groups, sessions, or should they all be used as firewood? If you’re a melody player, do you like bouzouki backing? How do you like them to back your tunes? Are there any instruments that the bouzouki compliments particularly well? And anything else you can think of!!
To answer your questions: I like the bouzouki as an accompaniment, I think it is different enough from guitar in most cases to warrant one of each. I play a Paul Doyle bouzouki made in Galway and am very happy with its playability and sound. I Play EADG, which I think makes more sense for picking tunes and makes little difference in comparison to DADG for chordal backing so overall EADG better. Obvious choices but Donal Lunny and Andy Irvine are my favourite players and their long list of various groups. I usually end up playing a more percussive style but I think I prefer the counter-melody style and feel that is what the bouzouki is really about. I have played the bouzouki both at sessions and on large stages. I reckon they are a good backing instrument at either level, sometimes restricted in volume at a session...not so much now as my Doyle has plenty of punch. Sometimes I pick tunes but I tend to almost accompany myself by picking the root/bass notes of the tune and let it ring under the melody. Other than this I think other instruments are better at outlining the melody. I think everybody likes to hear a single melody instrument with a single backing instrument (Molloy/Lunny) and to some extent the bouzouki fills this spot better than a guitar and definitely better than the rhythmically rigid piano. Finally Firewood?......burning spruce is an expensive way to heat your house.
Someone mentions the cittern. I actually like the sound of the cittern more than that of the bouzouki - which does not mean I dislike the bouzouki, far from it. Having five courses of strings as opposed to the bouzouki's four, maybe it can get conventional chords more easily (I'm not a strings player, so I'm dealing in vague impressions here...), and it sounds to me sweeter and more resonant than the bouzouki, whose sound - presumably using quite a lot of 'power chords' - strikes me as more astringent.
Stefan Sobell, either the outright inventor or at least a major pioneer of the modern cittern, set up years ago in Northumberland where he still makes them. They've definitely been popular in North-East England and I think too in Scotland. They go very well with the folk / trad of the North-East. Dance music apart, the singer-songwriter Jez Lowe has used the cittern a lot. The Battlefield Band used it, at least at the start. I bet The House Band did (could be wrong...).
Well, I definitely do love/hate it because, as a backing ensemble instrument, in an ensemble setting, you can play a 40 or 40,000 dollar instrument to approximately the same effect. There is hardly a bouzouki made that is so unpleasant sounding that you wouldn’t want to hear it, unlike some other ensemble instruments that can be shrill or dynamically unbalanced. The hate part is the regret of not owning a great instrument when opportunities to perform solo present themselves. Which is to say never.
Which is the real rub. A classical guitarist can spend a fortune on a guitar and may eventually take it to Carnegie Hall. A bouzouki player can spend a fortune on a bouzouki and may eventually take it to the coat room at Carnegie Hall, where he checks it in for safe-keeping while he watches the guitarist perform.
Bouzoukis and erhus, two serious instruments that depreciate in value over time.
By the way – it hasn’t escaped me that you’re writing a thesis. I have scientific proof of everything I’ve said so far.
I use my bouzouki for stage and sessions but not as often as I use my octave mandolin, which is easier to fret due to the shorter scale length. I use my tenor banjo for ceilis, where playing precisely and in unison are more valued than playing complementary parts.
Brian McNeill of the Battlefield Band used various cittern/mandola/mandocello instruments during his career; John McCusker more recently in the Battlefields used a cittern; Jez Lowe actually plays an Octave Mandolin, despite what he calls it.
I'm after a cittern, or a 5-course 'zouk, as my next acoustic build, once I've finished my mandola, which is dragging on for years.......
Deeply embittered, BarryM? I guess in the sense that I often wish I played a 'real' instrument, I perhaps get what you mean, but for the most part I really enjoy it and am quite glad to be one of the few bouzouki players!
I'd second most of what has been said on here, though as a player of the instrument I'm a bit biased as well. However, based on the reception and feedback I get from my band mates, fellow sessioneers and other musically-inclined friends, it's generally far preferred over guitar. The style of playing it induces is more complementary for all the above reasons. I've also found I've had a far easier time picking up tunes on it, perhaps because of the similarity to fiddle tuning (I'm a GDAD-er), and I can do many of the same ornaments as fiddler players. It's also much easier to play with other bouzouki players than a guitar player, but occasionally one does come across a sympathetic, tasteful guitarist and the combination is quite lovely, if you're balanced by enough melodic instruments.
I think bouzouki goes particularly well with flute, whistle and fiddle myself, though there's really no combination I'd object to. As far as luthiers go, I'm a Fylde player, but I've got a big soft spot for the Foley sound and hope to acquire one in the future. Though it's true that often even cheap bouzoukis sound pretty decent, I completely disagree that it's not really worth it to have a good one, and feel like the well-made instruments will age just as well as a good Martin guitars or anything. The nice thing is that a really great bouzouki costs about as much as a good, solid acoustic guitar, and once you've acquired one, you're pretty well set. The good'uns play and project better, and while I may not be going to Carnegie Hall anytime soon, I'd say there are a fair number of people and places curious to hear it featured. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic? I hope not
“Though the pub session originated in the UK in the late 1940s, it didn't really take off until the mid-1950s and would take another decade after that to spread across Ireland. That must be the most revolutionary development. My second would be the development of the LP.”
Okay, Floss, good points, but you’re stretching my half-century a bit (1960-2010). Besides, I was thinking of the music itself, not any particular distribution medium or context.
I've only ever heard zouk in arranged performances and one or two sessions I've spectated, never in one I've played, but I don't know if that makes a significant difference. I love a well played zouk or OM, either as accompaniment or melody playing. Certainly it is lower on the trad hierarchy (just like the mando I play), so I think you kind of need to have what I call a "top tier" instrument as primary instumentation (fiddle/pipes/flute/box) and then the zouk is an great addtion. Occasionally, a plectrum instrument sounds good as a solo melody instument, but in general I think it's one of those "in addition to" instruments.
Did you not have LP's in Ireland before 1960, Floss? They were well established in the US by the mid 50's. Would it make more sense if I narrow my window to the past forty years?
“wasn't the popularisation of the B/C accordion somewhat influential?”
Did it change the sound of the music in a way that made the music instantly more appealing to masses of people? That’s how I see the revolution in accompaniment, at least from my American-centric point of view. But, at the end of the day, I defer to your knowledge and experience.
Then there's the influence of, firstly, Ó Riada and The Chieftains, secondly Planxty and, thirdly, The Bothy Band. OK, the bouzouki was present in both two and three and the guitar in three too, but it was the conglomerate in each case which was paramount in terms of importance.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Floss the Tethers
Now, did Floss DELIBERATELY omit the essential part here?
He is talking about development in backing, mentions O'Riada and the Chieftains, who did not have a guitar or a bouzouki for backing purposes.
what they did have was...........yes, you at the back with your hand up?
Sure there were LPs in Ireland in the 1950s, but the first home-produced albums of traditional music didn't appear until the end of the decade. It was only during the 1960s that their frequency began to increase (and more people were able to afford record-players and musicians realized what could be done with forty minutes of vinyl).
Oh, now, re. the B/C accordion, you're moving the ballpark with 'Did it change the sound of the music in a way that made the music instantly more appealing to masses of people?' Developments in traditional music have never been 'instantly more appealing to masses of people'. Joe Burke's popularity ultimately resulted in more musicians taking up the B/C accordion than other versions and the rolling style of playing certainly had a major impact.
Bliss,
I have never done anything deliberately in upper-case letters in my life and I certainly was not 'talking about developments in backing', but countering Bob's position.
I don't think that the bodhrán has actually changed the way the music is played by those who play it or the way that it is heard. Compared to the introduction of the low whistle or steel fiddle strings or the use of a humidifier to keep reeds in tune it's like a stunted sapling in a forest full of oaks.
Compared to the introduction of the low whistle or steel fiddle strings or the use of a humidifier to keep reeds in tune it's like a stunted sapling in a forest full of oaks.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Floss the Tethers
I don't think that the bodhrán has actually changed the way the music is played by those who play it or the way that it is heard. Compared to the introduction of the low whistle or steel fiddle strings or the use of a humidifier to keep reeds in tune it's like a stunted sapling in a forest full of oaks.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Floss the Tethers
Is there supposed to be a "hidden" meaning in this somewhere?
Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Hello all! I’m an Ethnomusicology MA student (and bouzouki player) at the University of Limerick, Ireland, and I’m doing a thesis on the Irish Bouzouki in Irish Traditional music, with a section on how the bouzouki is thought of in today’s global Trad music scene.
As a way of getting the opinions of Trad musicians all over the world, I’m posting this in hopes of learning how people feel about the bouzouki as an instrument in Irish Traditional music. Do you love/hate it? Why? Who are your favorite luthiers? What tunings do you think work best? Who are your favorite players? Do you like the percussive or counter-melodic style? Are bouzoukis better for stage groups, sessions, or should they all be used as firewood? If you’re a melody player, do you like bouzouki backing? How do you like them to back your tunes? Are there any instruments that the bouzouki compliments particularly well? And anything else you can think of!!
I’m not here to judge anyone’s opinions or preferences. I just want to know what you think. Everyone’s opinions will be appreciated and respected, and no names will be used in the final presentation of the work. Feel free to ask if you have any questions! Thank you in advance for your thoughts!!
Ryan
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ryan Davidson
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
A well played zouk is always welcome.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
What's ethnomusicology?
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by gam
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I'm very fond of the work that Donal Lunny has done with Liam O'Flynn and many others. Of the times I've sat with a bouzouki, It's been very enjoyable.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I think it's a fine instrument. It *seems* less likely to ruin a tune than badly-played guitar backing, even if the zouk is being played by a novice. But I don't often sit in with a zoukist, so don't take this remark on trust.
Its make-up,sound and use are very unlike those of the Greek bouzouki, but I won't be pedantic about the name. Though calling it the Irish Bouzouki is no great effort, and I tend to do this.
I've much liked it as backing on albums by Mary Bergin (whistle) and Matt Molloy (flute); I forget precisely who played bouzouki on these (Alec Finn and Donal Lunny, respectively?).
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Bouzouki playing in trad music can be and often is quite a nice addition. To my ear, bouzouki playing is good when it's more sparse and melodic than heavily chordal and rhythm-oriented. The bouzouki, in other words, should suggest the chords more than it asserts them, and it should leave a healthy amount of ambiguity, to resolve it only at the climactic moments.
This style of playing, of course, is not suited to all melody playing, or to all tunes, and I suppose a bouzouki basher should be able to do more guitar-like accompaniment when the tune calls for it - like on the last part of the Longford Tinker, for example - just as a guitarist should really be able to back off to a more bouzouki-like approach on the more interesting tunes. But for the most part, the two incline towards very different approaches, and shouldn't be treated as interchangeable.
(I should say that I've played both instruments, in bands and sessions, and I like both instruments when they're well used)
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I'm biased I admit and think it ace but then I would
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by bazouki dave
What's Ethnomusicology
In case the person asking wasn't jiving us: Ethnomusicology can be loosely defined as the study of folk, traditional and popular music in the cultures where they "live."
This yellow sheet is, in fact, a sort of ethnomusicology forum. Aren't you all glad to know you are scholars??
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by cboody
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Either a forum or a zoo. We're either scholars or exhibits...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I'm a scholar, that's why I'm here.
I like bouzoukis. For what it's worth, I think bouzoukis along with all other stringed instruments other than fiddles, are best for backing.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Gringo
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I wonder what the lads back in the 70s would have thought if they'd known someone would be writing a thesis on their mucking around with bouzoukis :D
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by WillShakespear
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I find bouzouki to be quite a nice addition in sessions. I don't know anything about the tunings of it, but like someone else said, bouzouki seems to be a bit more subtle than guitar. I'm not a super loud flute player, and sometimes, volume wise, I can feel like I'm fighting to be heard over guitar backing. Haven't really had that issue with bouzoukis.
It sounded nice in the session at Bourke's the other night anyway! Good luck with the thesis work.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ingridrt
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
it all depends who's playing it.
and it all depends where your definition of trad extends to - if you count ceili bands as trad then subject to the caveat above its's a godsend in a two or three piece band. in a bigger outfit it just adds to the mush and its musical value is lost in the sea of white noise that characterises big fiddle-rich bands
if you mean playing just like my grandad, then it probably wouldn't figure at all
that's my prejudices aired for today
good luck with your studies
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by millionyears_bc
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I am a fan of well-played bouzouki in sessions. I like the contrapuntal style of accompaniment more than strummed rhythmic accompaniment, although, the best is a mixture of the two, used to add flavor to the tunes.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
As Reverend has said above.......
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by seaniemcg
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
+ 1 here too for Reverend and Jon K.
I like the bouzouki as it leaves plenty of space for the tune. The colour it adds when crosspicked rather than strummed should be subtle and only ever serve to highlight the tune.
A bit of careful strumming can be good though, and often in a full on session it's the only backing some people like.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
To my mind (today, anyway) there have been two revolutionary developments in diddley music in the past half century, both in the area of accompaniment: the introduction of new guitar styles and the introduction of the bouzouki. I love what Alec Finn and Donal Lunny have done with the bouzouki.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Well, I've never been present when a bouzouki ruined a session and (like the mandolin) I can't imagine how it could (even discordant pickings are often too hard to hear), but, I must admit, I've encountered many bouzoukists who seemed to think simply turning up with their instrument in hand (I could rephrase that, but I won't) might open more doors than it should. There were a couple some years back who followed the festival circuit north after Willie Week and clearly believed that bouzouki-in-hand equalled bird-in-the-sack.
I must completely disagree with Bob himself's claim that the only two 'revolutionary developments in diddley music in the past half century' are both connected to accompaniment.
Though the pub session originated in the UK in the late 1940s, it didn't really take off until the mid-1950s and would take another decade after that to spread across Ireland. That must be the most revolutionary development. My second would be the development of the LP.
Then there's the influence of, firstly, Ó Riada and The Chieftains, secondly Planxty and, thirdly, The Bothy Band. OK, the bouzouki was present in both two and three and the guitar in three too, but it was the conglomerate in each case which was paramount in terms of importance.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
My personal opinion is that the bouzouki is a better instrument for accompaniment in ITM than the guitar, as the different tuning and stringing leaves more holes for the music, and more ambiguity with the use of 'power chords", chords that only have the tonic and dominant in them, leaving the definition of whether the chord is major or minor to the melody and the listener. Whereas the guitar will have all the notes of the chord within one octave, giving a very 'plummy' middle-range sound.
IMNSHO.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
"Whereas the guitar will have all the notes of the chord within one octave, giving a very 'plummy' middle-range sound."
Depends who's playing the guitar...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by On Sabbatical
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
"Your thoughts on the Cittern in trad" .......while yer at it??
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by seaniemcg
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
To answer your questions: I like the bozouki as an accompanement, I think it is differne tenough from guitar in most cases to
As a way of getting the opinions of Trad musicians all over the world, I’m posting this in hopes of learning how people feel about the bouzouki as an instrument in Irish Traditional music. Do you love/hate it? Why? Who are your favorite luthiers? What tunings do you think work best? Who are your favorite players? Do you like the percussive or counter-melodic style? Are bouzoukis better for stage groups, sessions, or should they all be used as firewood? If you’re a melody player, do you like bouzouki backing? How do you like them to back your tunes? Are there any instruments that the bouzouki compliments particularly well? And anything else you can think of!!
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by seanoteamhnainn
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
To answer your questions: I like the bouzouki as an accompaniment, I think it is different enough from guitar in most cases to warrant one of each. I play a Paul Doyle bouzouki made in Galway and am very happy with its playability and sound. I Play EADG, which I think makes more sense for picking tunes and makes little difference in comparison to DADG for chordal backing so overall EADG better. Obvious choices but Donal Lunny and Andy Irvine are my favourite players and their long list of various groups. I usually end up playing a more percussive style but I think I prefer the counter-melody style and feel that is what the bouzouki is really about. I have played the bouzouki both at sessions and on large stages. I reckon they are a good backing instrument at either level, sometimes restricted in volume at a session...not so much now as my Doyle has plenty of punch. Sometimes I pick tunes but I tend to almost accompany myself by picking the root/bass notes of the tune and let it ring under the melody. Other than this I think other instruments are better at outlining the melody. I think everybody likes to hear a single melody instrument with a single backing instrument (Molloy/Lunny) and to some extent the bouzouki fills this spot better than a guitar and definitely better than the rhythmically rigid piano. Finally Firewood?......burning spruce is an expensive way to heat your house.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by seanoteamhnainn
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Someone mentions the cittern. I actually like the sound of the cittern more than that of the bouzouki - which does not mean I dislike the bouzouki, far from it. Having five courses of strings as opposed to the bouzouki's four, maybe it can get conventional chords more easily (I'm not a strings player, so I'm dealing in vague impressions here...), and it sounds to me sweeter and more resonant than the bouzouki, whose sound - presumably using quite a lot of 'power chords' - strikes me as more astringent.
Stefan Sobell, either the outright inventor or at least a major pioneer of the modern cittern, set up years ago in Northumberland where he still makes them. They've definitely been popular in North-East England and I think too in Scotland. They go very well with the folk / trad of the North-East. Dance music apart, the singer-songwriter Jez Lowe has used the cittern a lot. The Battlefield Band used it, at least at the start. I bet The House Band did (could be wrong...).
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Two things to say about the bouzouki:
1) Johnny Moynihan
2) Suitable, if used as a weapon.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Well, I definitely do love/hate it because, as a backing ensemble instrument, in an ensemble setting, you can play a 40 or 40,000 dollar instrument to approximately the same effect. There is hardly a bouzouki made that is so unpleasant sounding that you wouldn’t want to hear it, unlike some other ensemble instruments that can be shrill or dynamically unbalanced. The hate part is the regret of not owning a great instrument when opportunities to perform solo present themselves. Which is to say never.
Which is the real rub. A classical guitarist can spend a fortune on a guitar and may eventually take it to Carnegie Hall. A bouzouki player can spend a fortune on a bouzouki and may eventually take it to the coat room at Carnegie Hall, where he checks it in for safe-keeping while he watches the guitarist perform.
Bouzoukis and erhus, two serious instruments that depreciate in value over time.
By the way – it hasn’t escaped me that you’re writing a thesis. I have scientific proof of everything I’ve said so far.
I use my bouzouki for stage and sessions but not as often as I use my octave mandolin, which is easier to fret due to the shorter scale length. I use my tenor banjo for ceilis, where playing precisely and in unison are more valued than playing complementary parts.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by BarryM
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Did I mention that all bouzouki players are deeply embittered?
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by BarryM
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Brian McNeill of the Battlefield Band used various cittern/mandola/mandocello instruments during his career; John McCusker more recently in the Battlefields used a cittern; Jez Lowe actually plays an Octave Mandolin, despite what he calls it.
I'm after a cittern, or a 5-course 'zouk, as my next acoustic build, once I've finished my mandola, which is dragging on for years.......
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Thanks for the info, Pete.
I have not yet heard of Johnny Moynihan being used as a weapon, though in a long and eventful life in trad music almost anything is possible...
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Deeply embittered, BarryM? I guess in the sense that I often wish I played a 'real' instrument, I perhaps get what you mean, but for the most part I really enjoy it and am quite glad to be one of the few bouzouki players!
I'd second most of what has been said on here, though as a player of the instrument I'm a bit biased as well. However, based on the reception and feedback I get from my band mates, fellow sessioneers and other musically-inclined friends, it's generally far preferred over guitar. The style of playing it induces is more complementary for all the above reasons. I've also found I've had a far easier time picking up tunes on it, perhaps because of the similarity to fiddle tuning (I'm a GDAD-er), and I can do many of the same ornaments as fiddler players. It's also much easier to play with other bouzouki players than a guitar player, but occasionally one does come across a sympathetic, tasteful guitarist and the combination is quite lovely, if you're balanced by enough melodic instruments.
I think bouzouki goes particularly well with flute, whistle and fiddle myself, though there's really no combination I'd object to. As far as luthiers go, I'm a Fylde player, but I've got a big soft spot for the Foley sound and hope to acquire one in the future. Though it's true that often even cheap bouzoukis sound pretty decent, I completely disagree that it's not really worth it to have a good one, and feel like the well-made instruments will age just as well as a good Martin guitars or anything. The nice thing is that a really great bouzouki costs about as much as a good, solid acoustic guitar, and once you've acquired one, you're pretty well set. The good'uns play and project better, and while I may not be going to Carnegie Hall anytime soon, I'd say there are a fair number of people and places curious to hear it featured. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic? I hope not
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by strawberriesinthesaltsea
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
“Though the pub session originated in the UK in the late 1940s, it didn't really take off until the mid-1950s and would take another decade after that to spread across Ireland. That must be the most revolutionary development. My second would be the development of the LP.”
Okay, Floss, good points, but you’re stretching my half-century a bit (1960-2010). Besides, I was thinking of the music itself, not any particular distribution medium or context.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
How am I 'stretching' your half-century a bit? The session in Ireland didn't really happen outside Dublin until the mid-1960s.
But the distribution medium and context are the most important parts of any musical development!
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I've only ever heard zouk in arranged performances and one or two sessions I've spectated, never in one I've played, but I don't know if that makes a significant difference. I love a well played zouk or OM, either as accompaniment or melody playing. Certainly it is lower on the trad hierarchy (just like the mando I play), so I think you kind of need to have what I call a "top tier" instrument as primary instumentation (fiddle/pipes/flute/box) and then the zouk is an great addtion. Occasionally, a plectrum instrument sounds good as a solo melody instument, but in general I think it's one of those "in addition to" instruments.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
A further point, Bob, if you're looking for instrumental innovation, wasn't the popularisation of the B/C accordion somewhat influential?
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Did you not have LP's in Ireland before 1960, Floss? They were well established in the US by the mid 50's. Would it make more sense if I narrow my window to the past forty years?
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Cross-posted.
“wasn't the popularisation of the B/C accordion somewhat influential?”
Did it change the sound of the music in a way that made the music instantly more appealing to masses of people? That’s how I see the revolution in accompaniment, at least from my American-centric point of view. But, at the end of the day, I defer to your knowledge and experience.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Re Johnny Moynihan. Let's see what the great man has to say about the topic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQWLA2GHfO8
Oh dear <blush>
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by grego
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Then there's the influence of, firstly, Ó Riada and The Chieftains, secondly Planxty and, thirdly, The Bothy Band. OK, the bouzouki was present in both two and three and the guitar in three too, but it was the conglomerate in each case which was paramount in terms of importance.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Floss the Tethers
Now, did Floss DELIBERATELY omit the essential part here?
He is talking about development in backing, mentions O'Riada and the Chieftains, who did not have a guitar or a bouzouki for backing purposes.
what they did have was...........yes, you at the back with your hand up?
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I like the bouzouki by the way.
Many a pleasant night in Westport up at the Octagon in Hoban's with Johnny on the bouzouki.
And they make a pleasent change from too many guitars. A blend is nice.
Now someone tried to sell me a bouzouki, a great big Greek one, the original bowl shape, but it cost £18, or about 25 euro, $30.
Far too expensive, mind you that was in 1972.
I regret not robbing a post office to purchase said instrument.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Re: Johnny Moynihan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0BAD4ibvqM
What goes around.............
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Bob,
Sure there were LPs in Ireland in the 1950s, but the first home-produced albums of traditional music didn't appear until the end of the decade. It was only during the 1960s that their frequency began to increase (and more people were able to afford record-players and musicians realized what could be done with forty minutes of vinyl).
Oh, now, re. the B/C accordion, you're moving the ballpark with 'Did it change the sound of the music in a way that made the music instantly more appealing to masses of people?' Developments in traditional music have never been 'instantly more appealing to masses of people'. Joe Burke's popularity ultimately resulted in more musicians taking up the B/C accordion than other versions and the rolling style of playing certainly had a major impact.
Bliss,
I have never done anything deliberately in upper-case letters in my life and I certainly was not 'talking about developments in backing', but countering Bob's position.
I don't think that the bodhrán has actually changed the way the music is played by those who play it or the way that it is heard. Compared to the introduction of the low whistle or steel fiddle strings or the use of a humidifier to keep reeds in tune it's like a stunted sapling in a forest full of oaks.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
Compared to the introduction of the low whistle or steel fiddle strings or the use of a humidifier to keep reeds in tune it's like a stunted sapling in a forest full of oaks.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Floss the Tethers
Well, if you want to be a poser just say so.
No need to get huffy.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by bodhran bliss
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I don't know what you read, Bliss, but it certainly isn't what I write.
'You can leave in a taxi. If you can't get a taxi, you can leave in a huff. If that's too soon, you can leave in a minute and a huff.' Groucho.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Your thoughts on the Bouzouki in Trad?
I don't think that the bodhrán has actually changed the way the music is played by those who play it or the way that it is heard. Compared to the introduction of the low whistle or steel fiddle strings or the use of a humidifier to keep reeds in tune it's like a stunted sapling in a forest full of oaks.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Floss the Tethers
Is there supposed to be a "hidden" meaning in this somewhere?
# Posted on February 13th 2010 by bodhran bliss