In my humble opinion advocacy for learning the tunes ~ by listening ~ is not anti-dot. Yet for some members, who do read music, there is a concern that merely mentioning sheet music will bring on the troops. I hear ye!
Enough already from all you ear people who want to promote the aural tradition*. Could we please hear from those amongst you who feel badgered? The floor is yours.
My only plea is for the rest of us to listen. If anyone is utterly & completely anti-dot, fair play. Begin your own discussion.
*Yes there is an aural tradition. Does not mean by default there needs be an anti-dot militia.
Say what?!
Dot a lot? Besot with blots? Fraught with spots?
Got caught? Hot spot.
Plotting dotting?
Ought not--dotty's naughty.
Auditory's plauditory.....
Sheet music is entirely inappropriate in sessions, but what about in ceilidh bands?
I run a ceilidh band. The band's "tunebook" contains around 800 tunes. We don't know in advance which of these tunes we will be using for any particular gig - I select a set of two or three suitable tunes just after each dance is decided an announced.
Of course, we don't really need 800 tunes. We could easily get away with about 40, but playing the same same tunesets each time we went out would be a drag.
As anyone who runs a ceilidh band will tell you, you need to maintain a list of reliable stand-in musicians, in case one or more band members is uable to make it for any particular gig.
As it's highly unlikely that a stand-in musician would know all 800 of our tunes, it's essential (a) that all of my stand-ins can read music and (b) that I provide them with the sheet music to read!
The scroll of the fiddle smoking, it was obvious to all those short sentences and rivers of blood flowing from the gaping holes that Hemingway was back.
"We all know we have problems, seeing dots, and we're here to help each other." She pauses, sensing the tension, people fidgeting in their seats.
"Michael, please put you pocket knife away and stop cutting your name into the seat of your chair, and please, look at me, not the floor. Now, can you tell us when you first started feeling afflicted by dots?" She move forward, hands clasped, "In your own time Michael."
One of the quieter members in the back, fussing with papers, starts to whine as tears drop audibly in the silence on to the paper.
"What's wrong Emma?"
She whimpers, then takes a gulp and replies, "The dots, my dots, they're running." Then she can't continue as she chokes and the tears and drool come flowing out and all over her dots and the floor."
Michael starts to growl and the noise level rises, everyone restless...
I sometimes use the sheet music when I am learning a new tune (in the privacy of my own home, only after I have checked everywhere for hidden spy cameras), as a reference, but like to get off the music as quickly as possible.
The longer I stay on the music, the longer it takes before I am deeply engaging aurally.
Once I know a tune, deeply, it's quite impossible to forget it, and the dots are relegated to the dust heap, never to be seen again.
FWIW:
In my limited experience, whenever I have observed a singer or an instrumentalist to take out sheet music at a session, they have, upon utilizing the scrap of music, shown that they have neither the basics of the tune nor the feel/flow of it mastered. Several local songstresses come to my mind, and it is really hard to endure hearing a good bit of music mangled by someone who cannot take the time to learn it well.
I know a session should be free to all, and experience is only acquired by jumping in there. But I will liken it to a wannabee surfer who cannot really swim or navigate well joining in the mosh - they are a liability to others and can make things a lot less fun for the rest of the group.
However you may choose to get by, dots or no dots -
Let us not murder a good tune, shall we?
Rook. I think the comparison to a wannabee surfer is a bit dire. While an inexperienced surfer can cause mayhem and serious bodily harm, a person who mangles a tune is really only hurting his or her own dignity and putting a damper on a fun time, which, depending on the duration, I suppose could feel like bodily harm.
I speak as a newbie-trying-to-improve (also as a surfer), knowing the only way through the fear and fumblings is to jump into the "waves" head-first, hoping others will have a shred of mercy on me and my one offering of the evening.
Anyway, where would one put the music at a session? I have a hard enough time balancing my fiddle, guitar, cell phone and beer.
I guess we're taking advantage of llig's absence? For shame.
Seriously, though, anyone here who actually reads what I submit (I am humbled if you do), knows that I am working on separating myself from dependence on the dots. Dependence on, I say, not outright ignorance of. The main problem with dots, from what I can see, is that they contain only a skeleton of the tune, and cannot be counted on to reflect the way the tunes are played commonly here, there and everywhere else. Since they are mere skeletons, they also do not contain the spirit of the music. I know that people have mixed feelings of referring to ITM as folk music, but it is to some degree, especially in this regard. You can look at music notation from any type of folk music and you are only going to get the skeleton, not the meat and the spirit.
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with using them to one's advantage when used in the proper context. For example, there are a good number of reels and jigs I've heard either by recording or live where the first part is easy enough to pick up by ear, but when the second part comes around, the phrasing becomes more difficult and often gets treated more variably by different players. I for one have trouble from time to time with the second part of a jig or reel. I'm having that problem now with The Battering Ram, using Arcady's setting as my inspiration. In this case, the dots are helping me to learn a skeleton of the phrasing where I'm having difficulty by ear, and then I can throw away the dots once I have it and let the phrasing evolve on it's own. The point is, the music comes first. The dots are just there to provide some techinical support if needed, if I may use a modern analogy. That's the balance I have fallen into. Much better than before when I was learning from the dots almost exclusively and missing alot about the music, then having to finally "hear" the tune when I recognized it in a session and realizing I was playing it stiffly and lifelessly.
As for those that come from a classical training where notation is an integral part of the music, I can see where adapting to ITM could be a struggle, and separating from the dots is a completely different matter than it is to me who uses notation in a totally different way.
I like to think I've made some decent points. Carry on then.
To borrow from Miss Lonelyhearts' earlier theme, (and with apologies to Dr. Suess)
I will not use dots Random Notes
I will not, to learn Devanny's Goat
Not upon a music stand,
will I use notes for Lark on the Strand
I will not even ask a mouse
for dots to learn Man of the House
I do not like Green Eggs and Ham -
I learn by ear, like Ceolachan
In any tune or piece I play I 'see' the dots. That's the result of ten years' serious and very regimented classical training in my early years.
But, decades on (and empowered by many different forms of music), I think I 'see' them in a different way. There was a dependency on expected outcomes at one time (classical progressions would be a good example), but the blues, kora players, John Doherty, Miles Davis, Captain Beefheart and the uilleann pipes have left the dots in my head as mere starting points.
There's nothing wrong with sheet music as a starting-point, but it's only the very barest of beginnings.
Fair play Random - you said to keep away from this thread if it wasn't going to be helpful. I, I, I just couldn't help myself....
Unlike many others, I'm pro anything that helps you ingest as much information about this music as possible. I think aural immersion is still the best way (just like learning another language) but mixing in a few dots along the way isn't a sin either...
(sigh) I can hear the sound of my Elitist Snob card being torn up, and my club membership being revoked even as I type this...
Cross-post. No worries Jusa, with some of that really good scotch tape you can mend your ES card where no one can tell it's been ripped up.
BTW ~ not a bad poem. Dr. Suess would probably appreciate.
Is it OK to use dots to help understand the structure of a tune ?
To help understand how variations work ?
How about working on a breathing strategy (or equivalent) - is that too close to 'learning' ?
I think it might help if we make a distinction between learning from the dots and playing from the dots. The former is in my opinion acceptable, as long as the learner is familiar with ITM in general and the tune in particular where possible. The latter is not, ever. The tune must be memorized as soon as possible in order to play it with spontaneity.
"anti-dot: one who is opposed the use of sheet music, by anyone at any time, in the learning &/or playing of all (traditional irish) tunes." ~ Random_notes
Well Random, sorry, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that fits that extreme, including Llig... None of us are of a resource denial kind of brain frame... The only tyranny is in the poor interpretation of folks feeling defensive, like a cornered rattler. It ain't all black and white, except in notation...
Who's a backward boy? Oh yes, I forgot, he's in detention...
Just to make some connection to the roots, and to repeat that the following was not an anti-dot manifesto nor was ever intended to be, though some folks chose to read it that way...
ceolachan & Will, the definition was submitted to clarify a specific term {anti-dot}. Are either of you suggesting it is extreme, i.e. ~ there are degrees of anti-dotism?
Of those mentioned; Miss LonelyHearts, ceolachan, & most especially Llig, each one has stated he is not anti-dot. I trust those statements were true then & are true still.
Cheers!
I've a friend (yes I really do have one) who knows gobs and gobs of tunes. He carries a little notebook with only the first 2 measures of tunes to jog his brain when he wants to dredge up a tune from the deep. All it takes is seeing the first 2 measures. He says "oh yeah, that's how it goes." Then he'll stuff the notebook away and he's off and running. He may not have played that particular tune for months, but once he gets started, it sound like he plays it every day. Never does he rely on dots to play a whole tune, only for to nudge his memory banks. That seems like a good use of dots to me. It's always interesting to see him digging through his little notebook, he's got a treasure chest of 2 measures each. In 500 years some archeologist will find the book and say. Jumpin Jahosafat! These people played really short tunes.
Is there really such a thing as "ant-dotism"? Has anyone here ever said "NEVER use the dots!" ?
This "anti-dot" thing is just a label, and a poor one at that.
The point I've seen people make (over and over) is that music is aural, so learn to use your ears. The more you use your ears (and the less you rely on the dots), the better your listening abilities become.
No one has said that the dots have no utility, no usefulness. But they are not *necessary* to play this music, whereas using your ears IS necessary.
What gets tiresome is people whining about the emphasis on playing music *by ear.* Sorry, but that's just how this particular muse works, no matter what type of music you play. You might as well complain about us mammals emphasizing the use of our diaphragm and lungs to breathe.
Fair play, Will. Personally, I am not challenging your synopsis of this board, only hoping to hear from a few of the music literate members who have made references to an anti-dot perspective. For the sake of an open discussions I am doing my best to withold any bias I might have (not so easy).
ceolachan, this is not a spinoff from the excellent discussion linked above. I thought of it after reading the "question" thread.
For the record, & the sake of full disclosure ~ I am anti-midi.
It's the human condition to want to file, categorize and live by solid rules. It makes us feel secure, and there is also the hope that if we can just figure out the rules and live or in this case play by them, then the other players we have decided are the 'big dogs' will possibly approve of us. At least not bark at us, and maybe even like us, or in real life, play with us.
Dots, not dots, variation? not very much, none, too much, out right improvisation? gasp!!! harmony?????
What's wrong with dots? Why would anyone disparage such a wonderful, helpful tool? That would be like disparaging wine itself when what you really have a problem with is others that in your opinion drink too much of it, get violent, crash cars, need new livers or whatever.
Music is too vibrant and complex to try to put a hard, defined cage around it. The minute you decide that you will never play with someone who learned a tune from the page you will meet an amazing player with style and feel and groove and great rhythm who can lift tunes from the page and still sound like your favourite trad player.
What are the rules???? are there any rules???? Is it anarchy? should you just do whatever you want?
How about being sensible and look for balance?
Where is the tyranny? Is it possible that some may have managed to extract the extreme anti notation sensibility when it was never intended to be there? And if you can actually find an example of someone saying they think dots are 100 percent bad, and should be avoided in every and all circumstances, why is it so hard to remember that it is only ever one person's opinion?
Apparently the hardest thing about participating in an endeavour as vast and fascinating as ITM, is to listen, and play, and seek advice and practise and play, and talk, and read, and play some more, and yet still hold on to your sense of self, balance and perspective.
"I will not use dots Random Notes
I will not, to learn Devanny's Goat
Not upon a music stand,
will I use notes for Lark on the Strand
I will not even ask a mouse
for dots to learn Man of the House
I do not like Green Eggs and Ham -
I learn by ear, like Ceolachan"
..........this is absolutely delightful, em, in my humble opinion.....
No, she's just tossing out an aside, that I take more as humorous than fearful. It's just her way of acknowledging that other people have other views.
Seane Keane has a great ear for the pure drop, but he's also classically trained. For him, the dots are a useful tool. Yet it's important that he included a CD with his book.
Since some of us can't readily sit down with Mr. Keane to learn his tunes, the book/CD is a nice portable option. Nothing wrong with that.
Well, I think I get what you are referring to Random....hence
"Is it possible that some may have managed to extract the extreme anti notation sensibility when it was never intended to be there?"
and in any case
"why is it so hard to remember that it is only ever one person's opinion?"
For any of us...
Random, the 'Question' thread was an overflow from the "By Heart' thread, but some of that was deleted by Jeremy, when a certain member overstepped reason and specifically named several people, myself included, as 'anti-dot Nazis'... So, yes, this is at least third generation that thread. In order to keep that history connected, by tradition, I added the link to 'By Heart' above...
Twisty, an anti-dot opinion was 'never' voiced, not even by one lone gunman behind a grassy knoll, or under any milder threat such as the whip of a bow or whistle spittal...
ceolachan, I missed the flare up. As I have said before, I have no internet at home. Often I logoff at night. Next day, after the custodian has performed his duties, I am none the wiser for any ruckous which may have occured. All gone! Everyone sitting with perfect posture & hands folded neatly in their laps.
The many priceless treasures in the dragon's cave ~
Love Fiddlechick7, great contributions, and I agree with her and LMH with regards to the Seane Keane CD/book, though I'd place a hell of a lot more value on the CD, as too others of that ilk ~ by the likes of Tommy Peoples, Kevin Burke, Aly Bain, Tom Anderson, Pete Cooper ~ etc., etc., etc... (dot-dot-dot!)
I do like the gist of your want here, which could help as a pressure valve for those that do read comment in regards to the importance of learning by ear, by heart, as being anti-dot. The strength of passion can be read as being more exclusive than intended. That said, if it wasn't for want of involvement and progress and to share that passion ~ we would say nothing...
Well, I just posted an amazingly erudite comment to this discussion that went into limbo. I'll wait to see if perhaps the board is just having difficulty grasping the complexity of my arguments before I repost. I do so like the way posts disappear. Please don't go off on this tangent folks it is a good discussion as it is....
Seems to me some consider dots poison. What's the anti-dot??
I agree ceolachan, what I see reading through over and over again is roughly, " this is an aural tradition. Best and handy if you can learn by ear so you can also get the style, the lilt, the lift, the vast array of variable possibilities. AND written music can be a handy way to get a new tune started, or an aide de memoire etc, with the understanding that you are using it judiciously in an aural tradition"
....and yet the myth of tyranny somehow still abounds....
I took the comment I think you are referring to as a joke, and had a chuckle, as I often do reading through these pages, always though with perfect posture and neatly folded hands....
Twisty, you may have missed the repeated emphasis on things from the German past Twisty. Anyway, even if meant as a joke it was in bad taste. Curiously it got worse as Miss Lonely Hearts tried to discuss, but the other side, not funny, was having nothing of a discussion, it all being one sided. But that is in the past, so I'll move on to something hopefully more in line with this discussion and not that deleted past...
Back to the dots ~ I can only speak for myself, I have often played with folks who were buried in their books. I've had to at times hold suppress my chuckle impulse, but I've never intentionally gotten nasty or refused to play with them becuase of their dependancy. And I wouldn't cold shoulder them. That said, the inability to listen carries over to what is happening around them, and mostly, the dot dependant have no sense of conneciton with the session, meaning that they are definitely answering a different and generally erratic drummer, not the session. That stepping on the beat of the rest of us can drive me to set instrument aside and just 'listen', and enjoy a pint if one is in front of me.
Fortunately the dot dependant are generally not quick enough to pick up their sheets and find dots for every tune and set that might start up, so the differently tempoed is not that often, at least so far in my experience of such things...
cboody, the floor is here once you recompose your thoughts.
Temporarily I'll remove my restriction on showing a bias. . . On the 'by heart' thread ceolachan describes an all-too-common malaise, it is an overdose due to the overconsumption of dots (burp!) Potentially any substance may be toxic above a perscribed dosage. It is a bit frightful when the paramedics are summoned to a session.
Attempting to sight-read "O'Neill's 1001 Dance Tunes", in one setting, has alledgedly brought on a mild state of twilight or catatonia.
Player sitting
Tune starts
Quick, thumb through pages
Ah, this one
Sitting poised
Come in on the A part
Damn! that's not it
Quick, thumb through pages
Aha, that's it
Sitting poised
Come in on the A part
Damn! New tune starts
What is it?
Quick, thumb through pages
Where is it? Where is it?
Aha, there it is
Ok, Sitting poised
Come in on the A part
Damn! The set finished.
Hey! Can you guys play that again?
I'm ready now.
Just a bit o humor Rand, unfortunately it is a true story, but thinking back on the evening, it was a frustrating experience for the player. I felt compassion for the struggling player. Said player wanted so badly to participate.
My experience (I do hope it is relevant) began with some classical training when I was little.
Reading was fairly secondary, in the sense that my teacher got me to learn the three main major scales (G, D and A) first, then gave me a notation that consisted of numbers referring to which finger (zero through four) to use, and on which string I was supposed to rub the bow.
I got the Sevcic method to work on at home, and told where the open strings were to be found on the staff, which I very quickly forgot, aside from their names. Eventually in high school I did first trumpet without ever learning how to read.
When Irish music became an interest (eight years after I'd given up on the violin), it was impossible for me to even acknowledge dots as even a crude abstraction of music in general, so I wanted nothing of them. For the longest time, my own brand of logic insisted that specifically this music could certainly not be learned from ink and paper. With a greater perspective now, I don't regret this approach,
however;
This was when all the musicians around me knew the sound this music should have, and somehow telling a guitarist "why are you asking ME for the chords? Isn't it YOUR job to find them?" seemed perfectly normal to me.
Once I ended up in a place where ITM is considered "exotic", communicating ideas about chord progressions became a bit more difficult, and in some cases a major obstacle when trying to play, even with experienced musicians (from outside ITM).
I resigned myself to learn music theory a few years ago, by sheer necessity, and so far, it's proven quite useful. As a tool, not a means. I still believe music needs to be learnt through sound rather than sight. Once music is acquired, though, there's nothing wrong with being literate if it can be useful.
Thanks Fanning. Yes, plenty of relevance. I can definitely identify with your experience of guitarists' asking for the proper chords. Basically, I try to encourage them to get the tune in their head.
My favourite comment, regarding guitar backing, was recently posted by IrisNevins; "3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?" http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23610#comment490664
I forced everyone in my session to read her comments. I'm still waiting for one of the backers' to proclaim, "Ah-ha! Now I get it, Iris is brilliant!'
I don’t get the chance to have internet all the time and I too didn’t realise that I did not get to see all the “by heart thread”…but as the saying goes, “What you never had you never missed!”
In my bio the one part I have not changed over the years is about the use of written music.
It is a wonderful medium and tool but when out playing “live” unless you have everyone agreeing to play the same set, tune 2 page 3, tune 1 page 81 etc it does not really work that fluently.
Also, one of the points I have made to pupils, and others who play, is that when you learn off another person, you are in effect meeting another person, not only gaining another tune. That over the years has made for some fabulous encounters and friendships which emanate from such processes.
We could all have a virtual session, a humerous thread posted a few years back I think. Seriously, that’s why I go out to play; for me it’s as much about the people I play with as for the tunes to play.
And, very humbly, having the tunes flowing in a session is what I think makes for the wonderful “joi de vivre” and that drive which comes from emotions free to play the tune and not be reading.
Go raibh Dia leat, Brian. I hope the meaning is close. Please, let me know if it is not. Cheers, so glad I saw your post before logging off.
Thanks to everyone. & I apologize, in advance, for the following.
if you're wrought with dots,
then don't get caught.
on thesession our banter never stops.
oh . . . who are these pure drop cops?
it is neither me, nor thee.
for here, all are free.
newbies we await your erudition
~ for listening is our tradition!
This Random_notes, he doth dote.
I can't see a place for music in a session - if you don't know a tune well enough to play it without music, then you shouldn't be playing it in public. And for tunes within your own tradition learning by ear is certainly the best way to ensure you keep the tune true.
But there is one situation where I find dots invalable, and that is when I hear a tune I want from another tradition. If I hear a French/Norwegian/old timey or whatever tune I want to learn, if I were to learn it by ear from a recording I would end up simply immitating a French/Norwegian fiddler. What I prefer to do is to stop listening to it completely, and learn it from the dots. That way I get the tune, but I land up with it adapted to my own style, not as an immitation of an alien style.
Having been invited to be erudite I guess I'll have to try. Probably not much possibility but...
I came to trad music in general from a very long term as a paper trained player of "classical" (whatever that means) music. I was, for a time a decent low level professional recorder player (yeah yeah...the instrument not the recording machine). What I learned doing that is this: In performing any kind of music the dots provide only a shell. Good players of baroque music come to the music with reading skills, but also the ability to ornament, vary, and adapt musical phrases to match what they hear as implicit in the music. They got those skills by listening to fine players of baroque music, by studying what long gone players might have done with the music, and by understanding what their instrument can do. It seems to me that this directly parallels what many ITM players do: they listen carefully and apply what they listen to. Some may do this strictly by ear, and others may use dots to supplement and support what they have learned by listening. In baroque music, or trad music, or most any other kind of music, playing the dots is to play the shell. Without informing the dots through things learned by listening the result is terrible.
In sum, the issue is really not dots. It is immersing oneself sufficiently in a musical style to understand the implications of the materials one is dealing with. The more immersion the better the results regardless of dots.
Speaking of which, take a look at this very off ITM but very amazing clip:
Inequalities of music ~ and the do it without the dots!
The previous U-Tube link of cboody, after his lovely erudition...
YouTube ~ Narashinodai Daiichi Elementary School Band performance of "Slava!" featured on the Championship 2009: Japan Wind Orchestra and Ensemble Competition ~ brilliant!
It seems the Japanese still have music in the school system, and ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!! That can't be said for the rest of the world, especially the 'WEST', and in particular North America, the U.S. of A. One could easily think that the only perception of value of music there is as marching bands for American football games...
I know I get hard hit by taking my stand with me onto the stage (I'm in a band). What most people don't realize is that half the stuff I have written down on the pages are notes (not dots) that signal when to come in on songs, reminders for the drummer to play a certain part a certain way (LOL), etc. There is a lot of "sheet music" there too. The catch is, it is music I've written out to help job my memory... we play a lot of songs. I would caution people getting so uppitty when they see a stand, notes, dots, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean the individual can't play, is completely ignorant, etc. I say, just lighten up. In a session, I understand and respect that there is a different set of unspoken rules. I wouldn't presume to criticize someone for what they do on their own turf. I wonder why sometimes that doesn't go both ways. As many of you may remember, I have some short term memory issues. This new method I have of jogging my memory really helps me and allows me to keep enjoying playing. I think there might be too much judging going on on both sides sometimes. Just remember, we're all in this, mostly, for the same reasons. What matter the path to get there? It varies for each of us. The end result and destination can find some common ground.
For many this can be a serious problem, and one that can grow over time, with age. I don't think anyone would want to deny someone their simple pleasures, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the pleasures of othes present.
Having played in a number of bands, on the whole we did not have music stands or anything else in the way of our communicating with each other, and we 'practiced' ~ but we also welcomed sit-ins, and we had an annual thing where we'd have a large number of sit-ins. With a welcome, always, we'd let them know what tunes we were going to play including ahead of time. We'd even provide them music if needed, for the ears and/or the eyes. We did not deny or shun those who felt the need for the prompt of some form of notation, often ABCs on a scrap of paper, and sometimes only the opening bar or two of each tune, sometimes with a music stand in hand... But, the microphones were reserved for those that were prepared and didn't have a need for notation of any kind...
I never read sheet music until I started playing the fiddle, at which time I also began to seriously immerse myself in Irish Traditional Music as well as dabbling in Scottish Fiddle music. The dots only show up in my head as left hand finger positions on the fiddle, which can be transferrred to any instrument tuned in fifths. So picture in your mind's eye a fiddle neck, as you would look on it from sitting behind somebody playing the fiddle, or you are holding it in your lap and picking it like a mandolin . You are looking down at it so you can see all the strings. next imagine a note being played and think of it's letter name. when I think of the letter name of a note I hear it in my minds ear (I can't necessarily hum it because my vocal chords are not in shape and my mind's ear hears very quietly, but I can "hear" any note I concentrate on. similtaneously my minds eye will see the spot on the fiddle where the left hand finger goes and it will sort of light up or something, it's hard to describe because it happens visually in a place that I actually don't see with my physical eyes. Now to think of a tune, these spots on the fiddle neck (if I know the tune) will just light up in sequence as I concentrate on each part of the tune in my head. the dots can do the same thing but it adds an extra demension of abstraction, where I see the note, my mind translates it into fiddle fingering, which in turn allows me to hear it in my head. I think that's how it works.
Earl, that sense of finger placement *is* a big part of learning to play fiddle (or any stringed instrument). When I teach tunes by ear, I sometimes call out finger placements to help people along.
Such a "kinesthetic" approach can be helpful, but it's still just a stepping stone to simply playing the sounds themselves, with no conscious translation from through sight or practiced muscle movements.
YMMV, but my goal is to eventually get people to the point where they hear a note and their finger just instantly goes to where that sound exists on the fingerboard. It's less about "seeing" the pattern and much more about the singular firing of nerves that creates the desired sound, just as singers reflexively move their vocal chords to match pitch (presumably without seeing them move or somehow manually willing them into place).
Many thanks to all who commented while I was offline. Fiddlechick7, I most appreciate your contributing ~ well said!
Not to diminish your lovely erudition, cboody. ;)
Most enlightening Earl, & I'm not just being punny.
ceolachan, bless you for the link on the 'By Heart' discussion.
always good to hear from you Will.
If anyone is still lurking in the shadows, or laying in the brig, the floor will be open for as long as we need. What have you?
In the thread Dow does paraphrase what many have said before & since,"Someone who has learnt by ear for a number of years can learn how to interpret sheetmusic for a trad tune, but that's a different thing. By that time they've put the work in and can play."
It's not really something I started thinking about proactively until I had a few nights filled with playing and listening to music. When I laid down to go to bed, I just felt myself playing fiddle in my head and whole tunes where just coming to life in this surreal way. It reminded me of once when I played video games for a long time and scenes from the game where residually playing in my head when I closed my eyes trying to sleep. Yesterday I practiced remembering a tune that I couldn't remember and wanted to read the music or put on the Bothy band recording, and I tried to think of it in my head to no avail, I had to pick up the fiddle and figure out the last two measures of the B part to get the A part of Fisherman's lilt.
I came to playing traditional music through singing and playing a lot by ear. I find that I totally agree with cBooby that the issue is whether or not you can absorb the style and subtlety of the music and produce a convincing rendition. Some people are extremely good at reading dots and interpreting and comunicating as they go along, but unless the music has all the expression marks, and intrument specific directions printed on it in the same way as an orchestral score, it should not be relied upon to provide all you need when playing with other people.
In sessions, where the dots lead you from one pitch/time to the next, is a fraction of the story - communication between the musicians is vital. It takes an extremely good reader of music of professional standard to multitask listening to themselves, listening to other people, interpreting the music and reading the dots. I'm certainly not capable in sessions of this and I would venture to suggest that very few are. Some folk also believe that they can learn a tune 'off the dots', but the same thing is true - unless they are au fait with the style and the intention behind the tune (dance - swing) the result of this sort of learning of music is very often without any sort of emotional life.
But dots are great for reminding people how things begin and this is how I use them.
This is a fascinating discussion and has brought me into registering with the site. It's great to hear people's points of view on this. Thanks
I've transcribed loads of tunes over the years, and it almost always feels like packing a too-small trunk for a big trip. You end up cramming stuff in between the bar lines and indelicate laundry is hanging out between the lid seals.
We don't generally air the unmentionables, just well cleaned laundry here... But then, there have been a few builders bumbs hanging out around here, eh?
I have also found that if I can sing a tune, I can then sing it onto the unstrument. When the tune goes out of my range I have far greater difficulty remembering how it goes and then I have to resort to dots.
Playing an instrument saves me the embarrassment of singing. My good friend Andy, who introduced me to Irish dance tunes, put it simply. The tinwhistle gives you everything you need. Six holes & a fipple. Seven tones (basically) & 1 or 2+ octaves.
This is all the instruction I started with. I do respect those who can pick up a fiddle & make music.
Funny thing on this site - I haven't found anybody dissing the abc format in the same way the dots have been, yet they are just as deficient in the same way.
I have thesession.org to thank for me getting off my butt and learning to play without music. It's something I always used to put in the 'too hard' basket, but in many ways is easier than I had thought. And the more I do it the easier it gets.
That said, I would never regret learning to read music fluently. It has been incredibly useful to me on more than a few occasions.
The vast array of tools available to approach this thing we call ITM leads me to listening and hearing what I need to hear. I don't regret any of the tools that have helped me along the way. How many folks out there honestly now have never used dots or ABC or some chart format in some way to acheive their goal? I have never used ABC's in any shape manner or form but at times dots have a useful place in my toolkit. It's just a tool that occasionally helps get me to my goal of hearing what I need to hear. I think problems arise when a tool gets improperly used. Sure I can use vise grips to turn a nut, but, take a look at how damage has been done to the nut. I think when properly used, the dots are a fine tool. But when improperly used, it's the same as putting vise grips on a tune and wrenching the bedickens out of it!
Dots are vastly preferrable to ABCs in giving you a picture of what you should play. ABCs are a good format for teaching a midi device to play a tune, but not so good for human beings....
Al, your favor of dots over abcs may be just a matter of familiarity. l find abcs easy to play from, even at speed. Patterns emerge once you get accustomed to the format. But then I'm a verbivore by training....
Learning by ear is extremely important. It gives you a better sense of the music and frees you by letting you be able to ad lib at times during a particular tune. It also let's you add your ow touch to anything you play without having to think about it first.
Having said that..
Reading music is just as important, especially these days when anyone with a computer and internet can have access to tens of thousands of tunes. Music has been written down almost as long as humans have been able to write but for the most part music was really passed along from generation to generation by ear. This was adequate because they didnt have 2000, 5000 or 12,000 tunes they could access.
As Fanning said. Ear training is important in the beginning but t the same time work on the written aspect. Both are equally important, especially in almost any type of traditional music.
Not by a longshot. *Especially* in traditional music.
But there are enough comments on this thread and others that already explain why playing music by ear is essential (because it's music, not literature), and reading the dots (while useful) is optional.
That said, it's not hard to learn to sight read abcs, tablature, and standard staff notation. So go ahead and learn how. But don't mistake it for "just as important" as using your ears.
I agree with Miss L. I think a facility with the dots is immensely useful. However, I pick up just about all of my tunes by ear. Mainly because I find that, suddenly one day, I can play them, as opposed to making a deliberate effort.
Another point - though I admit that this is (i) a hobbyhorse of mine and (ii) probably too picky - I flinch at the suggestion of "ad libbing" in this music. Yes, it's great to put a different little touch in here and there, and to be able to do so with ease. In fact, it's a lot to do with what makes it musical, what makes it fun. But I've heard people in sessions going miles away from the tune, and thinking they're doing great things. This 'improvisation' makes me squirm, I have to admit. It ain't like a blues jam.
Miss L, ethical. Having got a tune how, if at all, can having or making a visual representation be of use to you personally ? For example, another dot-reading advocate of ear learning on the site has in the past said that it helps them to see the shape (it may have been contour) of the tune.
(sorry if I asked this before somewhere, but think it was post that failed and I didn't re-enter)
Loads of ways, david. Or at least, it seems that way until I try to write them down.
Off the top of my head, and writing whilst not really having enough time for this (sorry):
1 Often, in the house, I think of a tune and I can't quite remember it - if I have the dots, I'll look at them - oh, for about 1.857 seconds - and then I remember it again.
2 I've picked a tune up from a friend, and scribbled down some ABCs to remind me of the bits that are 'special' about this particular tune. Helps, but I generally find I have to go back to the source in any case.
3 Collections. I'm fascinated with the old collections. Even with all the errors and absurdities in some of the transcriptions, it's really interesting to see the different takes on tunes from a standpoint of historical references. And the collections in themselves tend to provide some sort of background to the tradition (wrong way of putting it, possibly), so that, even where one knows the standard, modern session version of something, it's good to know some of the historical takes that are out there.
I have to say that the idea of 'seeing' the contour of a tune hadn't occurred to me. To me, these tunes exist as sound, not as anything visual.
Does that help, David? Sorry ... there must be many more ...
Bless all things notational, for they have a place, if not to the fore ~
Bredna ~ 'Dissing' (=acting or speaking in a disrespectful way) dots ~
First, I don't see it having anything to do, and over time and repeat discussions, with a 'disrespect' for dots. The gist of these discussions is to do with 'reading'. So, while we conveniently us the single syllable metapho of 'dots', if you 'read' the bulk on this subject our focus and concern has to do with 'reading' as in contrast with 'listening'. Under 'reading' ALL forms of notation are covered. 'Dots' are just a fun way of cutting the process down to one syllable in a hole-punch sort of way...
For another kind of contrast, I think you'll find that rather than disrespect everyone I know here who has participated, myself included, has appreciation, respect and even a certain reverence for that act of recording, notation, dots or letters, how ever basic it is. Though, I do know some folk profess a hate for the ABCs...
Anyone who comes under my influence, any teaching I do, includes notation, from the dots specific to scribbling ABC memory jolts on beer coasters, from a bar or two to a whole tune. I also have delved into and love the history behind notation, not just for music, but dance too, and I've even studied the insane art of Laban notation... Unfortunarely there are no cross-eyed smilies possible here, probably avoided as not being PC, which is fair, so instead ~
As to what is most important in my sense of things, and this has never changed and never will ~ the ears have it, up front and way ahead of anything else. After all, what is music but for the ears, so should that not also be the start, middle and end of it all? It is the end, no question there, and for me it is also the heart of it all... Notation is just a convenient tool, sadly too often abused, misused, including as a crutch...
I see a distinction between 'learning' by the dots and 'playing' by the dots.
As briantheflute pointed out those who agree to play "tune 1 page 81" together can do that...and sound good!!! But when other players at the session learned the same tune as "tune 6 from page 23" or "tune 5 page 19" from different books... well.... um....sometimes that doesn't sound so good.
So I guess no matter what, there comes a time when you do have to put away the dots and play by ear. If not with respect to learning the structure of the tune, then at least for the sake of playing nice with others.
Thanks ethical. In the spirit of the OP I was trying to get some details how the dots were useful from people who agreed on when they were note. To know what I can admit to .
Before giving in the temptation to go off topic in relation to what eiluned and Earl have said. If people are going to say 'sing a dance tune' and by that mean out loud, then most people will have to transpose to fit a comfortable vocal range, most men by quite a lot. So if lying in bed or out walking and running through some tunes in my head there is either a miss-match with what I would sing or with what I would play, or both. And if singing there is a miss-match between the vocalisation and where the fingers would go when playing. Coming to a sticky bit I usually have no problem pulling out a whistle playing through it and then singing in the lower key (when walking that is). But am I using 'finger memory' to do that or an aural memory involving either relative pitch within the tune or a memory in a different key? Using an A whistle I don't have to transpose and I think I can tell that my throat is "in sync". But is that distorting the memory I need to find the right note "automatically" when listening and playing in the normal key, and slowing the development of that ability ?
A very interesting line of thought, and I think, and hope that others might think, your opinions are worth reading.
When I play a tune I near enough play the original version I learned the first time through, as a sort of acknowledgement of my source; you’ll note from my earlier post that I get most of my tunes from other players.
Some schools of thought say that there is a style of Irish Music which allows for some interpretation.
Others would say that there is a purist style, playing exactly as played by one of “their” masters (this being in the term of tutor, as opposed to rank!), and yet others would suggest that there is an ornamental style.
There are many recordings available now, which I’m sure, represent so many interpretations of just one tune.
And they are all valid!
How much do we like, perhaps, X’s version of the Y Jig, yet like Z’s version of the AA Reel better?
And there I think is the answer.
It is traditional music, and just as one’s speech can vary from one area to another, so the traditional music has its own accents and dialects.
And all the better I say!
How many in England speak “The Queen’s English”?
How many beautiful variations and nuances are there in The Irish Language?
Perhaps there might be a link between the music and the tongue?
I hope this might be received as a positive contribution and not one of division,
I'm not sure I will be capable of honouring the source of a tune in the long term. My speech passively accumulates variations and nuances from elsewhere - the other day having put the kettle on, but forgotten exactly why, I heard myself asking "is it tea that you want ?" Not the Queen's English (irish ? scottish ? both ?). I will probably end up with a hotch-potch of styles that drift a bit with time. So I will listen, listen, listen.
That is so kind of you Ethical, but I don’t really think I deserve such plaudits. When I was young, like Time Lords ago, as a family, we had to move house.
I had quite a South Lancashire accent as opposed to a “Scouse” accent and when I went to my new school, I literally got my head kicked in! One saving grace was that I could play football and score goals!
But I suppose that gave me an insight, maybe subconsciously, as to what it was to be outside the ring, maybe to be aware of other voices, maybe accents.
Even now in Australia, I pick up other voices.
I’ve played in sessions right through Ireland, let alone the mainland of Britain, as have many others here. Playing with the local musicians meant that one was exposed to a local style and setting, not just a tune (from the dots).
English, as a language is a very much breed of tongues, and is why it is so diverse in tonal qualities, let alone rich interpretation!
I went out and played everywhere I could, when I had the chance (and when, I might add, had nothing much more than my music), and maybe that’s where I found so many different repertoires, and accordingly, the different “musical” accents and settings.
But, as I mentioned above, that’s where and when I met so many lovely people who just wanted to share a tune, and again their friendship.
And I just hope that when you, and others who visit this wonderful site, are able to access these rich resources that we might all benefit from such positive interaction.
I do say this very humbly; I have met some very lovely people in my travels, first and foremost as people.
It then transpires that they just happen to be musicians! But none of us had any dots. One would ask, “Do you know xxx?” “Yeah! We could go into yyy!” and there you go!
“The Session…org(anised of sorts!)”
And what joyous meetings they make!
And let us all remember that we are people first, and when we do that, maybe then can we share the richness of this beautiful music.
And thank you Jeremy for the chance for all of us to espouse our views.
Well, hopefully we've all learned that there really is no such thing as an anti-dot commando.
Anti-not listening commandos? Oh baby, we've got them in bunches, yours truly included.
The very simple reason why there is a dot backlash here is that far too often, beginners use dots first and not their ears, or never their ears, and think that the dots are the tune.
The less you appear to be listening and the more you appear to be only relying on the dots, the greater the vitriol will be from the 'commandos', because that is doing it wrong.
...and as far as anything concrete can be discerned from this magical, mysterious, ambiguous music we love, it's got to be that using your ears primarily is doing it right.
"But am I using 'finger memory' to do that or an aural memory involving either relative pitch within the tune or a memory in a different key? Using an A whistle I don't have to transpose and I think I can tell that my throat is "in sync". But is that distorting the memory I need to find the right note "automatically" when listening and playing in the normal key, and slowing the development of that ability ?"
When you have a tune in your head it means you know how it goes, you can hum it, sing it probably in any key. In your head you could 'hear it' in any key, to sing out loud would be, as you pointed out, limited by your vocal range. But it is not finger memory. If you know the tune you could probably figure it out in several different keys, limited only by your comfort on the finger board. If you took Jingle Bells, for example. When you hear that in your head do you need to think of starting off 2nd finger on the A string? or two holes covered on the whistle? I suspect you can just sing it, and I suspect that you know that particular tune so well that you could find it on either of your instruments in quite a few different keys.
When we say sing or lilt a tune, it means you know how it goes, you know the melody, the intervals so well you can hum it, sing, reproduce it somehow. If you know an Irish tune so well that you can hum it like that then you can find it on your instrument.
Finding it and being able to play all the different parts is a different matter. You may find that a certain section has difficult string crossings for example, and even though you can find the notes, you'll have to practise them to get them 'into your fingers'
Fair play SWFL. Of course, you're forgetting the lone trooper who has her scissors ready for dot eradication;
The message goes out. - Emergency Service Announcement: Calling all A-DCs. Dots, Repeat, DOTS have been spotted. Suit up immediately.
Stand down. It is just another pro-dot thread on thesession. Stand down.
"dang - I thought we were being summoned" Posted on February 6th 2010 by airport
I'm happy to forget the dots & focus more on listening to my mates. Is there a phrase, aural literacy (as opposed to visual literacy)? This comes natural to many of you. Myself, I continue to learn how to listen eveyday.
Thanks Twisty. The bit that bothers me is when pacing along running through the tune in my head I get stuck on a few notes but if I run through it on a whistle I find I can play it without thinking about my fingers, score, ABC or anything. Do I have the tune or not ?
So from what you say I guess the thing to do would be to try picking it out on the mandolin. Or maybe sing it out loud making sure I am in a key that will work. Mind you, it doesn't usually happen with tunes I am confident about, so maybe that answers the question.
I find the knowing vs. finger memory discussion interesting. I have mangaged to "memorize" a few tunes. I'm not sure what I'm doing... knowing or storing it inside my muscles? I can "sing" or hum many tunes, but can't seem to start them or find them, or at the very least continue with them, on my fiddle. I wonder if this has something to do with the memory loss. Raises interesting questions about muscle memory over other forms of memory. I'm still wondering if this "issue" arises from memory/brain channels created as a child vs. creating new ones as an adult?
I believe our own dear airport was simply making lulz, as we say on 'teh innerwebz'.
As children, we all know how to learn aurally already. It's drilled out of us when we learn music as children in any sort of system or type of music where the dots are king.
Babies mimic their mothers' songs. Children mimic each others' songs. All children hear songs and sing them, without dots. How do they do it?!?!? [/mock amazement voice]
We get drilled into us that it's impossible to learn music without dots, which is wrong, as we all know and can sing from memory a boatload of ditties and tunes from TV shows, commercials, other children, parents, etc.
So really, what we're doing when we are ‘become literate aurally’ as you say is reconnecting with that thing we all had as children and babies which allowed us to simply hear and then reproduce sounds and music...
...well, just with a big ol' musical instrument in between the ears and brain, that is.
That's the real kicker here. All humans can hear and reproduce sound, that's how we learn to talk and sing Happy Birthday, Twinkle Twinkle and the Dr. Who theme music. My eight year old can lilt every single piece of music John Williams wrote for all six Star Wars movies, on command. Never looked at the dots once.
The kicker is then the instrument.
Ears > brain > mouth is one thing, and everyone can do it, no excuses. Just think about it for a second, honestly, not 'waa! it's too hard!' and you'll know it's true. Not you, Random, just folks in general. I never hear you whining about anything aural.
So really, the kicker here is the instrument, become comfortable enough with your instrument so that it takes the place of your mouth in the basic human equation that we are all gifted with as (somewhat) hairless primates.
What dots do, and another danger of them, is to give a crutch to you so that you can avoid learning your instrument. HA!
No but seriously folks. If your instrument was as familiar to you as your own flap jaws, you’d be able to return to the halcyon days of youth where it was no more complex than “listen and reproduce”.
…because, it really is no more difficult than that, if you spend enough time with it.
The real kicker is that we’re not learning how to learn by ear. We all know how to do that already. We’re humans. Hairless monkey hear, hairless monkey do.
The kicker is learning how to replace our mouths with a musical instrument!
David
I think you did answer your question. I would suggest to you that the little tricky or 'greasy' spots that you cannot sing are simply little bits of melody that just aren't in your ear yet. Perhaps a bit of melodic fragment that is unusual, or some intervals that you are unused to, especially descending intervals. Don't you find that if the melody has more scales in it that you find it more 'melodic' and thus easier to hum or sing than if it has lots of larger intervals leaping about. I think you go looking for those bits on your instrument because you can't quite find them in your ear.
I don't really think that's a problem, either way it ends up in your ear and your fingers. What's really cool is that the next tune you come across that has similar elements in it will 'stick' more quickly, easily.
Fiddlechick
You say you have trouble extracting a tune you know well enough to actually sing and then find it on your fiddle. That is very interesting. Is this for any music? or just in a medium that you are newer too? Can you find 'Happy Birthday' or 'Jingle Bells'? in almost any key? I ask because I wonder if it could be a degree of knowing. Those two tunes in particular seem to be known so well by people in the western world it's like they're hardwired into the DNA. If you can find those and yet cannot find Irish tunes I would suggest that the tunes you cannot find aren't in your head to the same degree.
There is also a difference between finding the tune that you know in your head and actually having played it enough times that you actually really know it in your fingers. It's possible to confuse the two, in the beginning because finding what you hear in your head is new and not easy yet, and also, I have seen people so good at finding tunes they know in their head, they can be unsure whether the tunes are really 'in their fingers'. Usually they find out when they can play them just fine at home in the living room, but suddenly have trouble in a different situation, ie at a quicker speed, when someone else is listening, in a session etc.
To each their own. And when I say both are important... I mean it. As I said "In this day and age" both are important. Without repeating the reply word for word....People have access to tens of thousands of sheet music/abc files/etc, etc. You can't say the same about recorded music. If you can't read music you're limiting yourself to your repertoire or you're spending all your time trying to find that rare recording of a certain tune so you could learn it when in the meanwhile you could be using that time to practice.
That is what I meant. Go back 100 years...hell go back 15 years and I'd say that being able to read music in trad isnt going to do much for you and you should concentrate just on ear training.
Learn by ear and learn to read. Sit down and listen to a song and try to play along. After a while you recognize keys and patterns and it becomes easier. When You've done that, open up a tune book and play from it. Keep doing it til you know those notes just as well as you know how to read the alphabet.
Quite honestly.. to ask whether sheet music is better than ear training on a trad site is like asking if bartering is more important than money on a financial forum.
mimi, in your first post you said they were "equally important." Now, you've clarified that you didn't really mean that.
"Don't limit yourself."
Agreed. Fully. And that includes, for people who are dot-dependent, doing whatever it takes to learn to play by ear so that you can pick up tunes on the fly, learn tunes from other players in person, etc.
There are folks in both camps who think that whichever skill they lack is too hard or "beyond me." It's really not that difficult to both play by ear and read the various written notations.
Thanks again Twisty - "in your ear and your fingers". Your comment to Fiddlechick7, particularly the second paragraph, is food for thought. I shall go off and think.
Learning to play scales on an instrument is the beginning of building the muscle memory to tie together sounds with finger placement. After that learning to play tunes builds a repertoire of muscle memory for music that moves in more ways than scale wise, alternatively you can play exercises from a book or teacher or tailor your own to your needs and goals. Being able to sing alone won't help you play an instrument. At first it takes deliberate intent to reproduce sounds that you want. You have to learn proper finger positioning from a teacher or mentor, or you will spend a long time making no music. I'd be interested to learn who plays fiddle without having been told by somebody where to put their fingers to play a G scale.
This brings in another long and repeatedly discussed topic, whether it is better to learn the music, which possesses, as I see it, all the scales and studies you could want, or spending time on scales and studies? A search of discussions will show you where that has gone in the past. It may work for some, but I think the music is enough study in and of itself. As to how it has generally been handled traditionally ~ with the music, not Sevcik or Czerny...
In all seriousness, I tell beginning pipers that they HAVE to be that boring, playing scales and things, until they come to grips with the mechanics of the instrument. Even experienced musicians get flummoxed by the uilleann pipes. Several excellent border pipers (who also play whistle), far better musicians than me, have had a go on it just attempting to play tunes at sessions. But the pressure and fingerings for the uilleann pipes are substantially different from whistles and border pipes; the result being they could not get the things to play in tune.
Once you can play it in tune, I wouldn't be fecked practicing scales.
I might recommend writing a blackboard 100 times, "If the back D is breaking, you're squeezing too bloody hard!"
I learned fiddle without playing scales and without anyone to show me where my fingers were supposed to go. My ears told me that. Of course, I already knew what music on a 5 string banjo and guitar sounded like (though I didn't so scales on them, either).
Practicing scales and arpeggios is great for rock and jazz and other chord-progression-based improvisational music. Not so much for Irish music. The tunes are all the "practice etudes" you need. As llig likes to say, scales are just crap tunes.
Jack, actually, that's a lot easier for me to follow by ear than from the dots. And I noticed at least two spots where the dots weren't accurate transcriptions of the music being played.
In fact, I'd say those dots from Jack's link are next to useless for getting the feel of that tune. They don't show the many slides, vocal vibrato, and some fingered vibrato.
I've been thinking . This muscle memory/kynesthetic learning business almost always gets criticised on this board. But that's usually in the context of learning to play the right notes by getting our fingers into that habit, or turning up at a session and doing what we have practiced at home without paying attention to what our ears are telling us.
Surely a huge part of learning an instrument is kynesthetic learning **with auditory feedback**. What Silver Spear is saying. Piper has to squeeze right, fiddler has to bow right, fluter has to blow right. But those are distinct from knowing which note to play for a tune.
However, how much of practicing a tune to make it sound how we want is also 'muscle memory', getting it into our fingers ? With auditory feedback.
I don't find the dots nearly as annoying as tablature. Honestly, I dont undrstand it. It's like reading music without actually reading music. I've known some otherwise good players who will resort to converting standard notation to tablature using specialized software. Seems like alot of extra work to me.
Forget the dots Jack, very much skeletal compared to what's happening, which I'm enjoying listening to. Is that a nai?
Back to topic, well, the one left off last night with dear Silver Spear and seeded by Earl...
It would be crazy of me to refuse resources that might help me help someone else to make connections, including connecting the dots to audio and vice versa. And scales and little exercises too, realizing each person is unique and requires seperate consideration, as best able. But, if I use scales I don't introduce them to start via dots or ABCs, but by ear. I see their use with beginners and in making a gentle connection of tone to instrument, with the emphasis on 'gentle', meaning relaxed, unhurried. It can be a useful way to first introduce someone to cause and effect ~ do this and hear that...
But, I'm in synch with MLH's and Llig's lovely ways with phrasing here ~ "The tunes are all the 'practice etudes' you need." ~ after some basic ease is achieved with knowing where the music is, but primarily, where possible, using the music toward that end too.
First steps in EAR TRAINING - from ones ears to ones instrument of choice, and back again - can benefit from basic scales and simple familiar tunes, even Suzuki's use of things like "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" and "Mary Had a Little Lamb" (with mint sauce)... But there are plenty of fine simple tunes in the tradition to meet that need, in any tradition. But, it sometimes is best to start with what one is familiar with for starters, including the basic steps up and down a scale...
I think at the beginning the kinesthetic learning is key. You'd have to be way more of a naturally talented (whatever that means) musician than myself to be able to sort out the bag bellows thing and figure out the fingerings for all the notes on a chanter while playing a tune. Especially if you're new to Irish music and can't even play any tunes. That's brilliant that you could figure it out on a fiddle without faffing around with scales, Will, but I couldn't. You don't need to play scales, you can play any combination of notes you want, but I find most people learning the pipes need to practice dull, long notes until they can control bag and bellows.
That said, I think the kinesthetic thing becomes autopilot. Your fingers know where the notes are. The bowing or the squeezing or breathing or pumping (now I'm writing a bad porn script) becomes automatic and you don't think about how and where to place each note. Then my theory is that this is where the link between the note in your head and whatever your fingers are doing develop. If I hear a tune in a different key than the one I normally play it in, I can transcribe on the fly (unless someone is playing it in something bizarre like F). I couldn't have done that five years ago.
May be it would help some people with a creative streak to invent tunes to fit what they can do on the instrument and push away a little at a time at difficult keys and finger positions. I find this can be fun and there are some tunes out there that may be similarily demanding and may have been the result of this sort of process.
Work from what you can do to what you find difficult a bit at a time.
As you say, SilverSpear, the kinesthetic memory is helpful when you're first starting out. Ultimately, it helps you with your comfort level on your given instrument. But when you're first starting out, the natural inclination is to use it to help with your comfort level of a specific tune.
A lot of people that are learning this music are learning both the music and their instrument at the same time. It's natural to rely on the kinesthetic memory to help with your comfort level of a particular tune, but I always try to encourage people to get past that as soon as they can. If you rely on your fingers to remember how the tune goes, then it's common to get "lost" when you miss a note, because your fingers lose the reference point of where to go next.
When you get to the point where you can internalize the tune, then you don't have that problem. And that's the point in time where you can start expressing the music, instead of regurgitating it.
I don't actually practice scales, but when I was learning music at a young age (I was mostly self taught with a few mentors through the years who taught me what I wanted to know at the time) I got to a point where I got curious about scales and I started learning violin and practiced scales only to the point where I could understand how to construct any given scale that I needed when the time came to learn something in a different key, I only play in keys mentioned in my earlier thread on modes, enharmonic keys are of no importance to the majority of musicians, no matter what musical school you are a part of. A casual community college music theory/ ear training/ sight singing course was more than enough to give me the tools I needed. Now I never practice scales and I kind of laugh to myself when experienced musicians practice scales to warm up, it's just become sort of a cliche. Repetition and drills are really not that important but I have submitted myself to it in the past, but I also learned a lot of new skills for constructing harmonies to any melody, and how to deliberately sing notes and compose in my head. I think it's a good idea for any musician to fully submerse themselves in something musical that challenges them daily, such as a music course, joining a musical group even if you feel you are not good enough, going to workshops and festivals, or joining a community orchestra, going to sessions is a given. As far as exercises go, I find myself practicing ascending and descending thirds more often than scales, and when I encounter scales in tunes I try to play it in thirds in variations.
Silver Spear, it's funny you should mention the key of F, it's probably my favorite key. It is harder to intonate on the fiddle in general, but it requires no long reach to the high B because it's Bb, also tunes in G dorian are fabulous. I am minding less and less to play tunes in the Bb key signature as well as the Eb is usually not so predominant to be truly difficult. At our session a banjo player, a flutist and I have been doing a set of Eileen Curran(G dor) to Humours of Westport(F). Nobody else plays but nobody minds because they are such fabulous tunes. When I originally decided to learn both of these tunes it was because they presented the extreme challenge of playing Bb, but the tunes dug themselves to deep that I began seeking out as many F tunes I could get my ears on. The first reel I wrote is in Bb, you can find it in my profile, and yes it's playable, the b part is difficult but can be modified in all sorts of ways, it's musically instinctual though, my flautist friend loves it.
Hmm. I've quit worrying so much if I am using finger memory to help me out when I can't sing a bit in my head. I think its usually the sound of the instrument in the phrase before that retrieves the bit that is sticking. Maybe not all the time though. Wierd things heads.
When I was in primary school and high school I was learning to play the French horn and I was in the high school choir. My horn teacher and choir director tried, at various times, to teach me music theory in the mathematical ways people teach it and I never ever came close to understanding it. I'm pretty incompetent at math. I just remember thinking, "Ah, Jesus wept, they're going on about diminished thirds again" and my brain would shut off.
Since I started learning Irish music a bit over five years ago, I have acquired a working knowledge of music theory. I know enough to correctly identify the key of most tunes I play and I recognise which notes go in which chords (so long as I don't have to name the chord), enough to get by on regs (if I had them) and play variations. I'd describe it as a quantitative understanding rather than a qualitative one. My friend asked me tonight, "So what's the relative minor of Dmaj?" I stared blankly. She then said, "What's three notes down from D?" I admit, I am so bad at math (or counting) that I was trying to work out which note was three notes down from D for a while. My mate finally said, "It's Bm!"
Which was suddenly obvious because you have a zillion tunes like the Earl's Chair which are D major/Bm-ish. I recognised that relationship, I knew those two keys had some kind of connection, but not in an answering-music-theory-on-exam sort of way. If I heard you playing tunes in those keys I'd recognise it as one of those Dmaj/Bm-ish tunes, no bother. It's more of a feel, I guess, than thinking about the math.
Yeah SilverSpear, I know what you're about. You've just discovered that theory is actually just a description of harmonic and melodic kinds of things that actually happen in music. Sticking a name with something you already know and understand makes sense while trying to abstractly talk about the terms does not. Too many folks do the latter and confuse folks whereas if they did the former folks would say "oh yeah of course." In sum, theory can be cumbersome and complex when discussed without real reference to the music one understands. It is simple when related to musical materials one has become familiar with. Speaking of which I'll bet you know a bunch of G major/Emin-ish tunes too don't you. Same thing at work...
Yes. I quite like the theory but it only takes me so far because I don't know what things talked about sound like. Doing it the other way - for example noticing that melody does something distinctive and wondering what it is called or how it works - requires patient folk around (or on the web) who do know the theory to explain it. Or eavesdroppng on web conversations; the comments in the tunes section here are sometimes good.
Whoever decided that the relative minor of D is three notes down does not play the whistle. Its five notes up
Well spotted - I suppose I was using a system where E is one note up from D and C is one note down from D. I wonder if SS's friend really said "What's a third down from D ?"
Yeah if you go up two notes or down two notes, you've just made an interval of a third, the inversion of which is a sixth. 3 and 6 add up to 9, as do all inversions. It's strange how Irish music shifts in tonality between relative majors and minors yet, when you think about key relationships as they actually apply. E dorian is more common than E minor and is most related to D, but a part of a tune might sound in G major for a while, and cleverly avoid C notes finally using at as an escape to jump back to the D in order to end up back to E.
Curiosity and persistence can teach you virtually all the music theory you’ll ever want to know. It’s really not difficult at all, once you establish your own way of thinking about it. With an instrument - like the guitar or piano - that makes it easy to build chords and see how they move and how the melody moves through them, you can experiment and hear and see what’s happening. You might not know the standard terminology, but that’s not hard to pick up if you ever need it. When I read bits of music theory, I find that I’m mainly learning words for talking about what I already understand in my own way.
"Curiosity and persistence can teach you virtually all the music theory you’ll ever want to know. It’s really not difficult at all, once you establish your own way of thinking about it."
--- AND---
"I read bits of music theory, I find that I’m mainly learning words for talking about what I already understand in my own way."
By Bob himself. Very well put. This wins my nomination for best post of the new year thus far, right after llig's banjo comment that got him banned, which I thought was very funny.
"... a part of a tune might sound in G major for a while, and cleverly avoid C notes finally using at as an escape to jump back to the D in order to end up back to E."
I will say that I am glad I got a thorough training in both music theory and ear training while I was a music major in college. This training came in very handy when I began playing piano at a local blues jam where they always played by ear and never, ever used sheet music (otherwise known as "dots"). After playing piano at this blues jam for five years, I also began playing piano at the local Irish sessions when some local musicians started these Irish sessions. My experience, background, and training was very helpful to me when I first began playing piano at the Irish sessions.
The best tunes suggest they will head one way, then head the other way, and do that in a manner that feels wholly natural--start in one mode, suggest another, play with the rhythm or against it. And you think to yourself, "Woah, nice one!"
If you think about relative minors and majors as three note chords which have two notes in common. This is much easier to see on a piano keyboard.
G major chord has the notes G and B and D - it's relative minor is E minor, which also contains the notes G and B, but you lose the D - and add an E.
Another example is D major
It has D and F# and A - it's relative minor is B Minor, which has D and F# but lose the A this time and add a B.
It is the sound of the common notes between the chords which give the close relationship. The change of feel gives us that gorgeous change of mood. Sorry, I know a lot of people out there are sucking eggs quite happily, but it took a long while for me to assimilate this meaning when I first started.
Hope this helps a few people rather than confuses further.
I’ve just dropped in and found how this thread has developed…wonderful!
I contributed, oh, a few years back now on exactly the point you’ve made Eiluned. It was to explain how substitute chords can be put in to an accompaniment and the way you just explained is near enough what I wrote.
I seem to recall that I gave a setting for the Sally Gardens reel, illustrating just those points, that the connection between a major chord and its “relative” minor is just one note away.
It’s a wonderful thing and so opens the tonal range, for both the player and the listener.
I was never taught music, but when it is part of your daily intake it sort of sneaks in to your system
So, hopefully without getting too technical, how a major sixth is an inversion of a minor seventh, and likewise a major seventh to a minor sixth, was one of the wheel invention days for me!
In case some don’t get what I’m saying I’ll try and give a simplified explanation.
C major is C E G and C major 6th is C E G A.
A minor is A C E and A minor 7th is A C E G.
So as Eiluned mentioned you can see where the relationship is between the two chords.
Now if you go to the next point, major seventh, and minor sixth you get
C major 7th is C E G B and if you take the E G B (which is E minor) and add the C you then get E minor sixth.
And this is why Am and Em are found as chords in the key of C.
Sometimes I’ve heard this called substitution and it is very common in jazz.
Also, if you play the standard major chord underneath and add a minor over the top, some wonderful sounds happen.
An example, play a standard C major, just C E G. Add a G minor over the top, G Bb D and you then have the chord C 9. It’s understood that any ninth chord incorporates the flattened seventh which is why it is Bb as opposed to B as in the major seventh.
This is where guitars, bouzoukis and mandolins can have such fun by playing to each other, and why less can open up more ideas the more.
I would add that the spacing between the notes can play a big part in how one hears this.
I find that there’s more space on my harp or piano than on the neck of a guitar, but even then, judicious fret and string selection opens up a diverse range of options.
I hope that this is easy for people who don’t play chords to understand.
Said this once and it didn't post. Apologies if it shows up twice.
Not to take this discussion too far down the road of geekiness, but the real difference between, say, Amin7 and C6 is the bass line played under the chord, and perhaps for jazz keyboard players the spacing of the notes. So it is important for bass players or keyboard players to know which is which, but probably not too important in Irish trad. What does happen in Irish trad is two backup players playing two different chords, say Am and Cmaj resulting in the sound of an Am7 or C6...depending on the bass notes. It is probably worth noting that you'll find all sorts of implications in the melodies too. For example edB edB can clearly imply that emin7/G6 sound.
Chords ~ Major 6th sixth inversion Minor 7th seventh
Hmmmm, what's that about wandering from one idea to another? Someone might consider starting a new thread on this very topic so that if someone tries to search for it in the future they are likely to find it... For now I've added a few search words in the 'Subject' header...
All these have the same two sharps, F# & C#
D Major, of course,
b minor, as you know,
E Dorian ~ WHAHOO!!!
A Mixolydian ~ Tuh duh!
& then there's the other common one with just F# in it
G Major
e minor
A Dorian
D Mixolydian
But let's clear the deck, C, no accidentals
C Major
a minor
D Dorian
G Mixolydian
They each float around the core note and resolve there too, in general, so to take a C Major tune home we'd finish with C, to take an a minor tune home we'd finish on a...
When I was a young boy, as my father worked his way up through the ranks of the Army, I remember that he was a major for a few years, so I guess I can say I once had a relative major, back when I was a relative minor.
Major Major Major Major in fact. His father had sadistically named him Major Major Major. Then, later, an IBM computer with a sense of humour promoted him to the rank of Major.
And then on to Cb minor, for which I reckon the key signature would be 4 flats and 3 double-flats. Enharmonically, of course, that would be B minor but I would call that cheating.
david_h, the piano keyboard is more useful for *visual* teaching of (academic) music theory. Play the white keys beginning on Middle C ~ C scale. C major triad ~ CEG [1-3-5]. Etc. & so forth.
Looks silly on the page. With a real piano you also have the aural experience. Sheet music is not a requirement for teaching or learning theory. minor jokes are another story ~ they are requisite for any real appreciation of music theory.
Isn't it funny that we've joined this discussion to support or not, the use of written music for various purposes in traditional music and we've ended up writing about music theory.
I suppose to bring the thread back a bit - from personal experience I cannot think about it as I play.I am not nearly quick enough to intellectualise stuff like this. Truth be known, beyond triads and basic harmony, I can hear it far better than I can think it. I am also hooked into the melody.
It is very interesting to have the next little bit of the story become clear gradually as I get older. I failed miserably at trying to understand harmony, counterpoint etcetera when I was younger. It never suited the way I needed to learn at the time.
Ah, yes, good point Random. And a reminder to me that within arms reach but buried under assorted junk is a battery-powered toy keyboard. Bought for £2 in a charity shop to practice some unexpected intervals in a vocal part. I now find that it has the white notes labelled with felt pen and a sticker with instructions to myself on how to stop it playing Twinkle Twinkle on its own if it takes it into its electronic mind to do so.
I think what this thread has demonstrated, though, with the fact that so much incredible theory has been shared, is the inherent understanding we all have of our music, our instruments, and possibly that is why we do go out and play without the dots.
I feel that if you are intimately related to your instrument and to the tune, then, just as in any relationship, moods, rhythms and feelings all fluctuate, and this gives rise to variations and interpretations.
One can say that the dots are there for reference, maybe a security blanket of sorts, but basically it means that those who are dependent on them are not free to extemporise or play as the mood takes them.
I don’t play variations because there is a need to. They just happen, and alluding to a point made much earlier in this thread, I must say that I do believe that scale and arpeggio skills are a great asset to any musician, classical, jazz, or as in our case, traditional.
And some of the guitarists I have worked with, because they are so acquainted with the tune, give such beautiful variations, that these in turn stimulate me into exploring the tune even more, and this is how interpretations occur.
When I started to learn to play I just played every note I could, every scale I could hear in my head, and that has put me in the position that when someone sings or plays in a relatively “foreign” key,(in traditional circles, that is) my ear takes me there straight away.
For someone to be singing in Cminor or B major is not uncommon. In traditional music however these keys are not used so much for tunes, but they certainly exist in singing. I remember a lovely singer in Somerset who naturally sang in flats. The guitarist would insist on playing in a more familiar key, in other words in stead of Db, take it up a semitone and play in D, but it affected the tonal quality of the song.
However I have played with some magnificent fiddle players, and I stress fiddle as opposed to violin, and they’ve ripped into Eb or Fm, Tommy Peoples, Danny Meehan, to name but a few.
Please don’t think of this as name dropping, I’m quoting these people because I was there and they did play in these keys. Some years ago some members here asserted that for fiddle players to use these keys their fiddles were simply tuned up!
I remember sitting in Jimmy McHugh’s front room in Glasgow and he looked over and winked and said “F#m” and proceeded to play Cooley’s Reel. You just don’t think of the notes, you think of the tune.
I have some calligraphic skills, and am able not only to write backwards, but also upside down and backwards. I explain to pupils that I don’t think of what letters I am writing, I focus on what is to be written, the words, and if you know, through practice, what you are doing, then the words just flow out, just as the tunes.
So basically, yes, dots are good for communication, like keyboards or pens for writing, but we all learned to speak before we ever learned to make our letters, didn’t we?
"So basically, yes, dots are good for communication, like keyboards or pens for writing, but we all learned to speak before we ever learned to make our letters, didn’t we?"
This has been something that I've been banging on about to many teachers of music I know who seem to think that learning music literacy is the be all and end all and that pupils are "failng" if they cannot do it for whatever reason. I only have to point out some brilliant trad musiciains who barely read - and who generally don't see the need to do so. They are hardly failures, but formal music lessons would have it that they are.
It is a question of whether music reading is percieved as part of some sort of qualification, which makes it desirable, or just a useful skill to have as a musician, which can be employed in certain circumstances, for specific tasks - but not for other musical activities such as trad session playing.
Anti-dot commandos
Anti-dot commandos
In my humble opinion advocacy for learning the tunes ~ by listening ~ is not anti-dot. Yet for some members, who do read music, there is a concern that merely mentioning sheet music will bring on the troops. I hear ye!
Enough already from all you ear people who want to promote the aural tradition*. Could we please hear from those amongst you who feel badgered? The floor is yours.
My only plea is for the rest of us to listen. If anyone is utterly & completely anti-dot, fair play. Begin your own discussion.
*Yes there is an aural tradition. Does not mean by default there needs be an anti-dot militia.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Hear ! hear!
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by baylady
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Luddites Unite!
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Look out -- here they come!!
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by justwhistle
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Free the dots! Let them run wild.
Just not at a session.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by leoj
Re: Anti-dot commandos
dang - I thought we were being summoned
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by airport
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Maybe you're just learning to connect the dots? <smirk>
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Shhhh...wisten vewwy cawfuwwy....be vewwy vewwy qwiet we aaww hunting.......... dots........shhhhhh.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Not so much troops as clowns, it would seem.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by gam
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Say what?!
Dot a lot? Besot with blots? Fraught with spots?
Got caught? Hot spot.
Plotting dotting?
Ought not--dotty's naughty.
Auditory's plauditory.....
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
shhh...Be qwiet Wiw...day aww wite owbow dayow.....shhh.....siwwy dots..................................................................
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I forgot!
So get the dots.
Surely not ...
Gwan, wallop the spot.
Can't play it so hot ...
So get the dots ...
Oh, I forgot
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Hup
Re: Anti-dot commandos - not in ceilidh bands!
Sheet music is entirely inappropriate in sessions, but what about in ceilidh bands?
I run a ceilidh band. The band's "tunebook" contains around 800 tunes. We don't know in advance which of these tunes we will be using for any particular gig - I select a set of two or three suitable tunes just after each dance is decided an announced.
Of course, we don't really need 800 tunes. We could easily get away with about 40, but playing the same same tunesets each time we went out would be a drag.
As anyone who runs a ceilidh band will tell you, you need to maintain a list of reliable stand-in musicians, in case one or more band members is uable to make it for any particular gig.
As it's highly unlikely that a stand-in musician would know all 800 of our tunes, it's essential (a) that all of my stand-ins can read music and (b) that I provide them with the sheet music to read!
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
RAMBO-dot commando
Eat this! ~ dah-dah-dahdahdahdahdah-dahdahdah-dot-DOT-DOT-DAAAAAHHHT!!!
. . . . . . . . . . . . .. .. .... .... ... ...... ....
....... .... .. ... ..... .. . . . . . . . . . .
The scroll of the fiddle smoking, it was obvious to all those short sentences and rivers of blood flowing from the gaping holes that Hemingway was back.
SO IT'S DOTS YE CRAVE ~
~ dah-dah-dahdahdahdahdah-dahdahdah-dot-DOT-DOT-DAAAAAHHHT!!!
. . . . . . . . . . . . .. .. .... .... ... ...... ....
....... .... .. ... ..... .. . . . . . . . . . .
WHAT! SOMETHING MOVED ~ DOT-DOT-DOT!!!
I see you there under the table suckin' your brew ~
~ DOT-DOT-DOT ~ DOT-DOT-DOT!!!
Such a waste of a good pint...
Now I've run out of shells, no more dots, those survivors can order up another round and we can get down to some 'REAL' music...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
ER & the dot medics
Here, don't cry, I'll wipe away those dots. You don't really have an incurable illness, it's just ink...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Dot-aholics Anonymous
The counselor enters the room and sits down...
"We all know we have problems, seeing dots, and we're here to help each other." She pauses, sensing the tension, people fidgeting in their seats.
"Michael, please put you pocket knife away and stop cutting your name into the seat of your chair, and please, look at me, not the floor. Now, can you tell us when you first started feeling afflicted by dots?" She move forward, hands clasped, "In your own time Michael."
One of the quieter members in the back, fussing with papers, starts to whine as tears drop audibly in the silence on to the paper.
"What's wrong Emma?"
She whimpers, then takes a gulp and replies, "The dots, my dots, they're running." Then she can't continue as she chokes and the tears and drool come flowing out and all over her dots and the floor."
Michael starts to growl and the noise level rises, everyone restless...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
At the risk of sounding too, well...serious...
I sometimes use the sheet music when I am learning a new tune (in the privacy of my own home, only after I have checked everywhere for hidden spy cameras), as a reference, but like to get off the music as quickly as possible.
The longer I stay on the music, the longer it takes before I am deeply engaging aurally.
Once I know a tune, deeply, it's quite impossible to forget it, and the dots are relegated to the dust heap, never to be seen again.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Anti-dot commandos
FWIW:
In my limited experience, whenever I have observed a singer or an instrumentalist to take out sheet music at a session, they have, upon utilizing the scrap of music, shown that they have neither the basics of the tune nor the feel/flow of it mastered. Several local songstresses come to my mind, and it is really hard to endure hearing a good bit of music mangled by someone who cannot take the time to learn it well.
I know a session should be free to all, and experience is only acquired by jumping in there. But I will liken it to a wannabee surfer who cannot really swim or navigate well joining in the mosh - they are a liability to others and can make things a lot less fun for the rest of the group.
However you may choose to get by, dots or no dots -
Let us not murder a good tune, shall we?
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Piece
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Rook. I think the comparison to a wannabee surfer is a bit dire. While an inexperienced surfer can cause mayhem and serious bodily harm, a person who mangles a tune is really only hurting his or her own dignity and putting a damper on a fun time, which, depending on the duration, I suppose could feel like bodily harm.
I speak as a newbie-trying-to-improve (also as a surfer), knowing the only way through the fear and fumblings is to jump into the "waves" head-first, hoping others will have a shred of mercy on me and my one offering of the evening.
Anyway, where would one put the music at a session? I have a hard enough time balancing my fiddle, guitar, cell phone and beer.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I guess we're taking advantage of llig's absence? For shame.
Seriously, though, anyone here who actually reads what I submit (I am humbled if you do), knows that I am working on separating myself from dependence on the dots. Dependence on, I say, not outright ignorance of. The main problem with dots, from what I can see, is that they contain only a skeleton of the tune, and cannot be counted on to reflect the way the tunes are played commonly here, there and everywhere else. Since they are mere skeletons, they also do not contain the spirit of the music. I know that people have mixed feelings of referring to ITM as folk music, but it is to some degree, especially in this regard. You can look at music notation from any type of folk music and you are only going to get the skeleton, not the meat and the spirit.
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with using them to one's advantage when used in the proper context. For example, there are a good number of reels and jigs I've heard either by recording or live where the first part is easy enough to pick up by ear, but when the second part comes around, the phrasing becomes more difficult and often gets treated more variably by different players. I for one have trouble from time to time with the second part of a jig or reel. I'm having that problem now with The Battering Ram, using Arcady's setting as my inspiration. In this case, the dots are helping me to learn a skeleton of the phrasing where I'm having difficulty by ear, and then I can throw away the dots once I have it and let the phrasing evolve on it's own. The point is, the music comes first. The dots are just there to provide some techinical support if needed, if I may use a modern analogy. That's the balance I have fallen into. Much better than before when I was learning from the dots almost exclusively and missing alot about the music, then having to finally "hear" the tune when I recognized it in a session and realizing I was playing it stiffly and lifelessly.
As for those that come from a classical training where notation is an integral part of the music, I can see where adapting to ITM could be a struggle, and separating from the dots is a completely different matter than it is to me who uses notation in a totally different way.
I like to think I've made some decent points. Carry on then.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Musicians of the world unite, the only thing you have to lose is your staves! Jump off the clef and give it a try!
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by AlBrown
;)
Thanks sara505sings, Mixolydian, & Jimmy B. Anyone else willing to brave the mockery, please keep the comments coming.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
To borrow from Miss Lonelyhearts' earlier theme, (and with apologies to Dr. Suess)
I will not use dots Random Notes
I will not, to learn Devanny's Goat
Not upon a music stand,
will I use notes for Lark on the Strand
I will not even ask a mouse
for dots to learn Man of the House
I do not like Green Eggs and Ham -
I learn by ear, like Ceolachan
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
~
So, Jusa. Are you anti-dot?
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
In any tune or piece I play I 'see' the dots. That's the result of ten years' serious and very regimented classical training in my early years.
But, decades on (and empowered by many different forms of music), I think I 'see' them in a different way. There was a dependency on expected outcomes at one time (classical progressions would be a good example), but the blues, kora players, John Doherty, Miles Davis, Captain Beefheart and the uilleann pipes have left the dots in my head as mere starting points.
There's nothing wrong with sheet music as a starting-point, but it's only the very barest of beginnings.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Fair play Random - you said to keep away from this thread if it wasn't going to be helpful. I, I, I just couldn't help myself....
Unlike many others, I'm pro anything that helps you ingest as much information about this music as possible. I think aural immersion is still the best way (just like learning another language) but mixing in a few dots along the way isn't a sin either...
(sigh) I can hear the sound of my Elitist Snob card being torn up, and my club membership being revoked even as I type this...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Anti-dot definition
anti-dot: one who is opposed the use of sheet music, by anyone at any time, in the learning &/or playing of all (traditional irish) tunes.
Fair play?
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Cross-post. No worries Jusa, with some of that really good scotch tape you can mend your ES card where no one can tell it's been ripped up.
BTW ~ not a bad poem. Dr. Suess would probably appreciate.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Is it OK to use dots to help understand the structure of a tune ?
To help understand how variations work ?
How about working on a breathing strategy (or equivalent) - is that too close to 'learning' ?
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I think it might help if we make a distinction between learning from the dots and playing from the dots. The former is in my opinion acceptable, as long as the learner is familiar with ITM in general and the tune in particular where possible. The latter is not, ever. The tune must be memorized as soon as possible in order to play it with spontaneity.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by gam
Re: Anti-dot commandos
"anti-dot: one who is opposed the use of sheet music, by anyone at any time, in the learning &/or playing of all (traditional irish) tunes."
Has anyone on this board ever taken this position? I'd be surprised. Does anyone here qualify, given Random's definition, as anti dot?
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Anti-dot paranoia
"anti-dot: one who is opposed the use of sheet music, by anyone at any time, in the learning &/or playing of all (traditional irish) tunes." ~ Random_notes
Well Random, sorry, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that fits that extreme, including Llig... None of us are of a resource denial kind of brain frame... The only tyranny is in the poor interpretation of folks feeling defensive, like a cornered rattler. It ain't all black and white, except in notation...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Unfortunately there's no way to effectively write out the doo-doos of "The Twilight Zone" theme...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Yob
Who's a backward boy? Oh yes, I forgot, he's in detention...
Just to make some connection to the roots, and to repeat that the following was not an anti-dot manifesto nor was ever intended to be, though some folks chose to read it that way...
Discussion: By Heart
# Posted on January 31st 2010 by ceolachan
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23710
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
What are ye inferring?
ceolachan & Will, the definition was submitted to clarify a specific term {anti-dot}. Are either of you suggesting it is extreme, i.e. ~ there are degrees of anti-dotism?
Of those mentioned; Miss LonelyHearts, ceolachan, & most especially Llig, each one has stated he is not anti-dot. I trust those statements were true then & are true still.
Cheers!
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I've a friend (yes I really do have one) who knows gobs and gobs of tunes. He carries a little notebook with only the first 2 measures of tunes to jog his brain when he wants to dredge up a tune from the deep. All it takes is seeing the first 2 measures. He says "oh yeah, that's how it goes." Then he'll stuff the notebook away and he's off and running. He may not have played that particular tune for months, but once he gets started, it sound like he plays it every day. Never does he rely on dots to play a whole tune, only for to nudge his memory banks. That seems like a good use of dots to me. It's always interesting to see him digging through his little notebook, he's got a treasure chest of 2 measures each. In 500 years some archeologist will find the book and say. Jumpin Jahosafat! These people played really short tunes.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Is there really such a thing as "ant-dotism"? Has anyone here ever said "NEVER use the dots!" ?
This "anti-dot" thing is just a label, and a poor one at that.
The point I've seen people make (over and over) is that music is aural, so learn to use your ears. The more you use your ears (and the less you rely on the dots), the better your listening abilities become.
No one has said that the dots have no utility, no usefulness. But they are not *necessary* to play this music, whereas using your ears IS necessary.
What gets tiresome is people whining about the emphasis on playing music *by ear.* Sorry, but that's just how this particular muse works, no matter what type of music you play. You might as well complain about us mammals emphasizing the use of our diaphragm and lungs to breathe.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Fair play, Will. Personally, I am not challenging your synopsis of this board, only hoping to hear from a few of the music literate members who have made references to an anti-dot perspective. For the sake of an open discussions I am doing my best to withold any bias I might have (not so easy).
ceolachan, this is not a spinoff from the excellent discussion linked above. I thought of it after reading the "question" thread.
For the record, & the sake of full disclosure ~ I am anti-midi.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
It's the human condition to want to file, categorize and live by solid rules. It makes us feel secure, and there is also the hope that if we can just figure out the rules and live or in this case play by them, then the other players we have decided are the 'big dogs' will possibly approve of us. At least not bark at us, and maybe even like us, or in real life, play with us.
Dots, not dots, variation? not very much, none, too much, out right improvisation? gasp!!! harmony?????
What's wrong with dots? Why would anyone disparage such a wonderful, helpful tool? That would be like disparaging wine itself when what you really have a problem with is others that in your opinion drink too much of it, get violent, crash cars, need new livers or whatever.
Music is too vibrant and complex to try to put a hard, defined cage around it. The minute you decide that you will never play with someone who learned a tune from the page you will meet an amazing player with style and feel and groove and great rhythm who can lift tunes from the page and still sound like your favourite trad player.
What are the rules???? are there any rules???? Is it anarchy? should you just do whatever you want?
How about being sensible and look for balance?
Where is the tyranny? Is it possible that some may have managed to extract the extreme anti notation sensibility when it was never intended to be there? And if you can actually find an example of someone saying they think dots are 100 percent bad, and should be avoided in every and all circumstances, why is it so hard to remember that it is only ever one person's opinion?
Apparently the hardest thing about participating in an endeavour as vast and fascinating as ITM, is to listen, and play, and seek advice and practise and play, and talk, and read, and play some more, and yet still hold on to your sense of self, balance and perspective.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Twisty
~
I thought of it (the topic of this thread) . . .
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
"I will not use dots Random Notes
I will not, to learn Devanny's Goat
Not upon a music stand,
will I use notes for Lark on the Strand
I will not even ask a mouse
for dots to learn Man of the House
I do not like Green Eggs and Ham -
I learn by ear, like Ceolachan"
..........this is absolutely delightful, em, in my humble opinion.....
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Twisty
If you must know:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23732#comment493936
this comment caught my attention. is she simply being tiresome?
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
No, she's just tossing out an aside, that I take more as humorous than fearful. It's just her way of acknowledging that other people have other views.
Seane Keane has a great ear for the pure drop, but he's also classically trained. For him, the dots are a useful tool. Yet it's important that he included a CD with his book.
Since some of us can't readily sit down with Mr. Keane to learn his tunes, the book/CD is a nice portable option. Nothing wrong with that.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Well, I think I get what you are referring to Random....hence
"Is it possible that some may have managed to extract the extreme anti notation sensibility when it was never intended to be there?"
and in any case
"why is it so hard to remember that it is only ever one person's opinion?"
For any of us...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Twisty
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Random, the 'Question' thread was an overflow from the "By Heart' thread, but some of that was deleted by Jeremy, when a certain member overstepped reason and specifically named several people, myself included, as 'anti-dot Nazis'... So, yes, this is at least third generation that thread. In order to keep that history connected, by tradition, I added the link to 'By Heart' above...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Boatpiper ~ loved it!
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
;)
Exactly! I would then infer the subsequent comments were made by members who also enjoyed her humour.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Cross-post
my, but we are busy for the weekend. Last post @Miss LonelyHearts.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
The magic hole-punch
Twisty, an anti-dot opinion was 'never' voiced, not even by one lone gunman behind a grassy knoll, or under any milder threat such as the whip of a bow or whistle spittal...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Dearest c.
ceolachan, I missed the flare up. As I have said before, I have no internet at home. Often I logoff at night. Next day, after the custodian has performed his duties, I am none the wiser for any ruckous which may have occured. All gone! Everyone sitting with perfect posture & hands folded neatly in their laps.
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
The many priceless treasures in the dragon's cave ~
Love Fiddlechick7, great contributions, and I agree with her and LMH with regards to the Seane Keane CD/book, though I'd place a hell of a lot more value on the CD, as too others of that ilk ~ by the likes of Tommy Peoples, Kevin Burke, Aly Bain, Tom Anderson, Pete Cooper ~ etc., etc., etc... (dot-dot-dot!)
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Detention ~
Llig was not the only one given the red card...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I do like the gist of your want here, which could help as a pressure valve for those that do read comment in regards to the importance of learning by ear, by heart, as being anti-dot. The strength of passion can be read as being more exclusive than intended. That said, if it wasn't for want of involvement and progress and to share that passion ~ we would say nothing...
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Well, I just posted an amazingly erudite comment to this discussion that went into limbo. I'll wait to see if perhaps the board is just having difficulty grasping the complexity of my arguments before I repost. I do so like the way posts disappear. Please don't go off on this tangent folks it is a good discussion as it is....
Seems to me some consider dots poison. What's the anti-dot??
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by cboody
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I agree ceolachan, what I see reading through over and over again is roughly, " this is an aural tradition. Best and handy if you can learn by ear so you can also get the style, the lilt, the lift, the vast array of variable possibilities. AND written music can be a handy way to get a new tune started, or an aide de memoire etc, with the understanding that you are using it judiciously in an aural tradition"
....and yet the myth of tyranny somehow still abounds....
I took the comment I think you are referring to as a joke, and had a chuckle, as I often do reading through these pages, always though with perfect posture and neatly folded hands....
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Twisty
._.. .. ... _ . _. / _ ___ / _ .... . / __ .._ ... .. _._. !!!
Twisty, you may have missed the repeated emphasis on things from the German past Twisty. Anyway, even if meant as a joke it was in bad taste. Curiously it got worse as Miss Lonely Hearts tried to discuss, but the other side, not funny, was having nothing of a discussion, it all being one sided. But that is in the past, so I'll move on to something hopefully more in line with this discussion and not that deleted past...
Back to the dots ~ I can only speak for myself, I have often played with folks who were buried in their books. I've had to at times hold suppress my chuckle impulse, but I've never intentionally gotten nasty or refused to play with them becuase of their dependancy. And I wouldn't cold shoulder them. That said, the inability to listen carries over to what is happening around them, and mostly, the dot dependant have no sense of conneciton with the session, meaning that they are definitely answering a different and generally erratic drummer, not the session. That stepping on the beat of the rest of us can drive me to set instrument aside and just 'listen', and enjoy a pint if one is in front of me.
Fortunately the dot dependant are generally not quick enough to pick up their sheets and find dots for every tune and set that might start up, so the differently tempoed is not that often, at least so far in my experience of such things...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
Twisty two times ~ I must be tired. I think I'll pop the cork on a bottle of sparkling Shiraz tonight...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
Erudition (& posture)
cboody, the floor is here once you recompose your thoughts.
Temporarily I'll remove my restriction on showing a bias. . . On the 'by heart' thread ceolachan describes an all-too-common malaise, it is an overdose due to the overconsumption of dots (burp!) Potentially any substance may be toxic above a perscribed dosage. It is a bit frightful when the paramedics are summoned to a session.
Attempting to sight-read "O'Neill's 1001 Dance Tunes", in one setting, has alledgedly brought on a mild state of twilight or catatonia.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Player sitting
Tune starts
Quick, thumb through pages
Ah, this one
Sitting poised
Come in on the A part
Damn! that's not it
Quick, thumb through pages
Aha, that's it
Sitting poised
Come in on the A part
Damn! New tune starts
What is it?
Quick, thumb through pages
Where is it? Where is it?
Aha, there it is
Ok, Sitting poised
Come in on the A part
Damn! The set finished.
Hey! Can you guys play that again?
I'm ready now.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Anti-commandos
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Boatpiper, I suppose you are not mocking, merely being humourous. Is this a true story? Either kick over the stand or turn to the tune for them.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Just a bit o humor Rand, unfortunately it is a true story, but thinking back on the evening, it was a frustrating experience for the player. I felt compassion for the struggling player. Said player wanted so badly to participate.
By the way, we did play the set again.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Anti-dot commandos
My experience (I do hope it is relevant) began with some classical training when I was little.
Reading was fairly secondary, in the sense that my teacher got me to learn the three main major scales (G, D and A) first, then gave me a notation that consisted of numbers referring to which finger (zero through four) to use, and on which string I was supposed to rub the bow.
I got the Sevcic method to work on at home, and told where the open strings were to be found on the staff, which I very quickly forgot, aside from their names. Eventually in high school I did first trumpet without ever learning how to read.
When Irish music became an interest (eight years after I'd given up on the violin), it was impossible for me to even acknowledge dots as even a crude abstraction of music in general, so I wanted nothing of them. For the longest time, my own brand of logic insisted that specifically this music could certainly not be learned from ink and paper. With a greater perspective now, I don't regret this approach,
however;
This was when all the musicians around me knew the sound this music should have, and somehow telling a guitarist "why are you asking ME for the chords? Isn't it YOUR job to find them?" seemed perfectly normal to me.
Once I ended up in a place where ITM is considered "exotic", communicating ideas about chord progressions became a bit more difficult, and in some cases a major obstacle when trying to play, even with experienced musicians (from outside ITM).
I resigned myself to learn music theory a few years ago, by sheer necessity, and so far, it's proven quite useful. As a tool, not a means. I still believe music needs to be learnt through sound rather than sight. Once music is acquired, though, there's nothing wrong with being literate if it can be useful.
My two bits...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Fanning
Play it again?
I always do too ~ play the set again. Funny how someone will want us to play it again, but then profusely apologize when we do.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Find the corkscrew yet, c.?
Thanks Fanning. Yes, plenty of relevance. I can definitely identify with your experience of guitarists' asking for the proper chords. Basically, I try to encourage them to get the tune in their head.
My favourite comment, regarding guitar backing, was recently posted by IrisNevins; "3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23610#comment490664
I forced everyone in my session to read her comments. I'm still waiting for one of the backers' to proclaim, "Ah-ha! Now I get it, Iris is brilliant!'
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
"By the way, we did play the set again." ~ Boatpiper
See, some of use will get through the eye of the needle...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
Ah, htere it is, I've finally found the corkscrew!
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
Hooray!
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-corkscrew
Duh! Only ~ since when does a sparkling wine need a corkscrew... It is being poured as I type. Pretty good for folks saying men can't multitask...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Bail ó Dhia oraibh! Greetings!
I don’t get the chance to have internet all the time and I too didn’t realise that I did not get to see all the “by heart thread”…but as the saying goes, “What you never had you never missed!”
In my bio the one part I have not changed over the years is about the use of written music.
It is a wonderful medium and tool but when out playing “live” unless you have everyone agreeing to play the same set, tune 2 page 3, tune 1 page 81 etc it does not really work that fluently.
Also, one of the points I have made to pupils, and others who play, is that when you learn off another person, you are in effect meeting another person, not only gaining another tune. That over the years has made for some fabulous encounters and friendships which emanate from such processes.
We could all have a virtual session, a humerous thread posted a few years back I think. Seriously, that’s why I go out to play; for me it’s as much about the people I play with as for the tunes to play.
And, very humbly, having the tunes flowing in a session is what I think makes for the wonderful “joi de vivre” and that drive which comes from emotions free to play the tune and not be reading.
All the best
Brian x
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Go raibh Dia leat, Brian. I hope the meaning is close. Please, let me know if it is not. Cheers, so glad I saw your post before logging off.
Thanks to everyone. & I apologize, in advance, for the following.
if you're wrought with dots,
then don't get caught.
on thesession our banter never stops.
oh . . . who are these pure drop cops?
it is neither me, nor thee.
for here, all are free.
newbies we await your erudition
~ for listening is our tradition!
This Random_notes, he doth dote.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I can't see a place for music in a session - if you don't know a tune well enough to play it without music, then you shouldn't be playing it in public. And for tunes within your own tradition learning by ear is certainly the best way to ensure you keep the tune true.
But there is one situation where I find dots invalable, and that is when I hear a tune I want from another tradition. If I hear a French/Norwegian/old timey or whatever tune I want to learn, if I were to learn it by ear from a recording I would end up simply immitating a French/Norwegian fiddler. What I prefer to do is to stop listening to it completely, and learn it from the dots. That way I get the tune, but I land up with it adapted to my own style, not as an immitation of an alien style.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by skreech
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Having been invited to be erudite I guess I'll have to try. Probably not much possibility but...
I came to trad music in general from a very long term as a paper trained player of "classical" (whatever that means) music. I was, for a time a decent low level professional recorder player (yeah yeah...the instrument not the recording machine). What I learned doing that is this: In performing any kind of music the dots provide only a shell. Good players of baroque music come to the music with reading skills, but also the ability to ornament, vary, and adapt musical phrases to match what they hear as implicit in the music. They got those skills by listening to fine players of baroque music, by studying what long gone players might have done with the music, and by understanding what their instrument can do. It seems to me that this directly parallels what many ITM players do: they listen carefully and apply what they listen to. Some may do this strictly by ear, and others may use dots to supplement and support what they have learned by listening. In baroque music, or trad music, or most any other kind of music, playing the dots is to play the shell. Without informing the dots through things learned by listening the result is terrible.
In sum, the issue is really not dots. It is immersing oneself sufficiently in a musical style to understand the implications of the materials one is dealing with. The more immersion the better the results regardless of dots.
Speaking of which, take a look at this very off ITM but very amazing clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9p0Acf-SbU
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by cboody
Inequalities of music ~ and the do it without the dots!
The previous U-Tube link of cboody, after his lovely erudition...
YouTube ~ Narashinodai Daiichi Elementary School Band performance of "Slava!" featured on the Championship 2009: Japan Wind Orchestra and Ensemble Competition ~ brilliant!
It seems the Japanese still have music in the school system, and ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!!! That can't be said for the rest of the world, especially the 'WEST', and in particular North America, the U.S. of A. One could easily think that the only perception of value of music there is as marching bands for American football games...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
~ and 'they' do it without the dots!
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I know I get hard hit by taking my stand with me onto the stage (I'm in a band). What most people don't realize is that half the stuff I have written down on the pages are notes (not dots) that signal when to come in on songs, reminders for the drummer to play a certain part a certain way (LOL), etc. There is a lot of "sheet music" there too. The catch is, it is music I've written out to help job my memory... we play a lot of songs. I would caution people getting so uppitty when they see a stand, notes, dots, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean the individual can't play, is completely ignorant, etc. I say, just lighten up. In a session, I understand and respect that there is a different set of unspoken rules. I wouldn't presume to criticize someone for what they do on their own turf. I wonder why sometimes that doesn't go both ways. As many of you may remember, I have some short term memory issues. This new method I have of jogging my memory really helps me and allows me to keep enjoying playing. I think there might be too much judging going on on both sides sometimes. Just remember, we're all in this, mostly, for the same reasons. What matter the path to get there? It varies for each of us. The end result and destination can find some common ground.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Short term memory ~
For many this can be a serious problem, and one that can grow over time, with age. I don't think anyone would want to deny someone their simple pleasures, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the pleasures of othes present.
Having played in a number of bands, on the whole we did not have music stands or anything else in the way of our communicating with each other, and we 'practiced' ~ but we also welcomed sit-ins, and we had an annual thing where we'd have a large number of sit-ins. With a welcome, always, we'd let them know what tunes we were going to play including ahead of time. We'd even provide them music if needed, for the ears and/or the eyes. We did not deny or shun those who felt the need for the prompt of some form of notation, often ABCs on a scrap of paper, and sometimes only the opening bar or two of each tune, sometimes with a music stand in hand... But, the microphones were reserved for those that were prepared and didn't have a need for notation of any kind...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I never read sheet music until I started playing the fiddle, at which time I also began to seriously immerse myself in Irish Traditional Music as well as dabbling in Scottish Fiddle music. The dots only show up in my head as left hand finger positions on the fiddle, which can be transferrred to any instrument tuned in fifths. So picture in your mind's eye a fiddle neck, as you would look on it from sitting behind somebody playing the fiddle, or you are holding it in your lap and picking it like a mandolin . You are looking down at it so you can see all the strings. next imagine a note being played and think of it's letter name. when I think of the letter name of a note I hear it in my minds ear (I can't necessarily hum it because my vocal chords are not in shape and my mind's ear hears very quietly, but I can "hear" any note I concentrate on. similtaneously my minds eye will see the spot on the fiddle where the left hand finger goes and it will sort of light up or something, it's hard to describe because it happens visually in a place that I actually don't see with my physical eyes. Now to think of a tune, these spots on the fiddle neck (if I know the tune) will just light up in sequence as I concentrate on each part of the tune in my head. the dots can do the same thing but it adds an extra demension of abstraction, where I see the note, my mind translates it into fiddle fingering, which in turn allows me to hear it in my head. I think that's how it works.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Earl, that sense of finger placement *is* a big part of learning to play fiddle (or any stringed instrument). When I teach tunes by ear, I sometimes call out finger placements to help people along.
Such a "kinesthetic" approach can be helpful, but it's still just a stepping stone to simply playing the sounds themselves, with no conscious translation from through sight or practiced muscle movements.
YMMV, but my goal is to eventually get people to the point where they hear a note and their finger just instantly goes to where that sound exists on the fingerboard. It's less about "seeing" the pattern and much more about the singular firing of nerves that creates the desired sound, just as singers reflexively move their vocal chords to match pitch (presumably without seeing them move or somehow manually willing them into place).
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Miss Lonley is spot on about fingers reflexively moving to the right position. Of course that is also why I don't play fiddle...
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by cboody
Anti-commandos
Many thanks to all who commented while I was offline. Fiddlechick7, I most appreciate your contributing ~ well said!
Not to diminish your lovely erudition, cboody. ;)
Most enlightening Earl, & I'm not just being punny.
ceolachan, bless you for the link on the 'By Heart' discussion.
always good to hear from you Will.
If anyone is still lurking in the shadows, or laying in the brig, the floor will be open for as long as we need. What have you?
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
You too!
Cheers skreech.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Why are the Anti-dot commandos never singers?.
I am lead to believe that singers sessions are much worse for having the book open than musicians sessions.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by geoffwright
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Book is for acoustic 'foldback' - looks better than finger in ear.
# Posted on February 7th 2010 by David50
The librarian is in
I have been searching to confirm no one actually said, "never use the dots." So far no smoking gun, though we are a lively bunch. So far the winner of the 'put those dots where the light does not shine!' honourable mention award is . . . http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17034/comments#comment354494 Posted on March 15th 2008 by Dow ~ Re:"Listen, Don't Read"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17034/comments#comment354494
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
;)
The comment was so good Dow placed 1st & 2nd.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
In the thread Dow does paraphrase what many have said before & since,"Someone who has learnt by ear for a number of years can learn how to interpret sheetmusic for a trad tune, but that's a different thing. By that time they've put the work in and can play."
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
It's not really something I started thinking about proactively until I had a few nights filled with playing and listening to music. When I laid down to go to bed, I just felt myself playing fiddle in my head and whole tunes where just coming to life in this surreal way. It reminded me of once when I played video games for a long time and scenes from the game where residually playing in my head when I closed my eyes trying to sleep. Yesterday I practiced remembering a tune that I couldn't remember and wanted to read the music or put on the Bothy band recording, and I tried to think of it in my head to no avail, I had to pick up the fiddle and figure out the last two measures of the B part to get the A part of Fisherman's lilt.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I came to playing traditional music through singing and playing a lot by ear. I find that I totally agree with cBooby that the issue is whether or not you can absorb the style and subtlety of the music and produce a convincing rendition. Some people are extremely good at reading dots and interpreting and comunicating as they go along, but unless the music has all the expression marks, and intrument specific directions printed on it in the same way as an orchestral score, it should not be relied upon to provide all you need when playing with other people.
In sessions, where the dots lead you from one pitch/time to the next, is a fraction of the story - communication between the musicians is vital. It takes an extremely good reader of music of professional standard to multitask listening to themselves, listening to other people, interpreting the music and reading the dots. I'm certainly not capable in sessions of this and I would venture to suggest that very few are. Some folk also believe that they can learn a tune 'off the dots', but the same thing is true - unless they are au fait with the style and the intention behind the tune (dance - swing) the result of this sort of learning of music is very often without any sort of emotional life.
But dots are great for reminding people how things begin and this is how I use them.
This is a fascinating discussion and has brought me into registering with the site. It's great to hear people's points of view on this. Thanks
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by eiluned
Hijack: Anti-dot commando thread
Found a real gem, from none other than Mr.Gill on the thread linked above; http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17034/comments#comment354779
We miss ya'
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
ah...llig's quantum approach to the music....
I've transcribed loads of tunes over the years, and it almost always feels like packing a too-small trunk for a big trip. You end up cramming stuff in between the bar lines and indelicate laundry is hanging out between the lid seals.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
;)
He would be so proud if we can convince Jeremy to change the *Tunes* tab to *Airing Your Unmentionables in Public" tab
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
LOL!
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Welcome eiluned!
Also good to see those old connections, dear Dow, Mark, and Llig, Michael in their absence...
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by ceolachan
We don't generally air the unmentionables, just well cleaned laundry here... But then, there have been a few builders bumbs hanging out around here, eh?
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I'm just here for the craic don't ya know!
Appologies to cBoody - it's a thing with the d and the b
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by eiluned
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I have also found that if I can sing a tune, I can then sing it onto the unstrument. When the tune goes out of my range I have far greater difficulty remembering how it goes and then I have to resort to dots.
It's all about individual learnng styles.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by eiluned
My introduction
Playing an instrument saves me the embarrassment of singing. My good friend Andy, who introduced me to Irish dance tunes, put it simply. The tinwhistle gives you everything you need. Six holes & a fipple. Seven tones (basically) & 1 or 2+ octaves.
This is all the instruction I started with. I do respect those who can pick up a fiddle & make music.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Funny thing on this site - I haven't found anybody dissing the abc format in the same way the dots have been, yet they are just as deficient in the same way.
I have thesession.org to thank for me getting off my butt and learning to play without music. It's something I always used to put in the 'too hard' basket, but in many ways is easier than I had thought. And the more I do it the easier it gets.
That said, I would never regret learning to read music fluently. It has been incredibly useful to me on more than a few occasions.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Bredna
Re: Anti-dot commandos
@ellluned "Appologies to cBoody - it's a thing with the d and the b"
No problem. It has been done before, accidentally and on purpose. From time to time it has, I suspect, been deserved.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by cboody
Re: Anti-dot commandos
The vast array of tools available to approach this thing we call ITM leads me to listening and hearing what I need to hear. I don't regret any of the tools that have helped me along the way. How many folks out there honestly now have never used dots or ABC or some chart format in some way to acheive their goal? I have never used ABC's in any shape manner or form but at times dots have a useful place in my toolkit. It's just a tool that occasionally helps get me to my goal of hearing what I need to hear. I think problems arise when a tool gets improperly used. Sure I can use vise grips to turn a nut, but, take a look at how damage has been done to the nut. I think when properly used, the dots are a fine tool. But when improperly used, it's the same as putting vise grips on a tune and wrenching the bedickens out of it!
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Dots are vastly preferrable to ABCs in giving you a picture of what you should play. ABCs are a good format for teaching a midi device to play a tune, but not so good for human beings....
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Al, your favor of dots over abcs may be just a matter of familiarity. l find abcs easy to play from, even at speed. Patterns emerge once you get accustomed to the format. But then I'm a verbivore by training....
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Learning by ear is extremely important. It gives you a better sense of the music and frees you by letting you be able to ad lib at times during a particular tune. It also let's you add your ow touch to anything you play without having to think about it first.
Having said that..
Reading music is just as important, especially these days when anyone with a computer and internet can have access to tens of thousands of tunes. Music has been written down almost as long as humans have been able to write but for the most part music was really passed along from generation to generation by ear. This was adequate because they didnt have 2000, 5000 or 12,000 tunes they could access.
As Fanning said. Ear training is important in the beginning but t the same time work on the written aspect. Both are equally important, especially in almost any type of traditional music.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by mimicabin
Re: Anti-dot commandos
"Both are equally important...."
Not by a longshot. *Especially* in traditional music.
But there are enough comments on this thread and others that already explain why playing music by ear is essential (because it's music, not literature), and reading the dots (while useful) is optional.
That said, it's not hard to learn to sight read abcs, tablature, and standard staff notation. So go ahead and learn how. But don't mistake it for "just as important" as using your ears.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I agree with Miss L. I think a facility with the dots is immensely useful. However, I pick up just about all of my tunes by ear. Mainly because I find that, suddenly one day, I can play them, as opposed to making a deliberate effort.
Another point - though I admit that this is (i) a hobbyhorse of mine and (ii) probably too picky - I flinch at the suggestion of "ad libbing" in this music. Yes, it's great to put a different little touch in here and there, and to be able to do so with ease. In fact, it's a lot to do with what makes it musical, what makes it fun. But I've heard people in sessions going miles away from the tune, and thinking they're doing great things. This 'improvisation' makes me squirm, I have to admit. It ain't like a blues jam.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Miss L, ethical. Having got a tune how, if at all, can having or making a visual representation be of use to you personally ? For example, another dot-reading advocate of ear learning on the site has in the past said that it helps them to see the shape (it may have been contour) of the tune.
(sorry if I asked this before somewhere, but think it was post that failed and I didn't re-enter)
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Loads of ways, david. Or at least, it seems that way until I try to write them down.
Off the top of my head, and writing whilst not really having enough time for this (sorry):
1 Often, in the house, I think of a tune and I can't quite remember it - if I have the dots, I'll look at them - oh, for about 1.857 seconds - and then I remember it again.
2 I've picked a tune up from a friend, and scribbled down some ABCs to remind me of the bits that are 'special' about this particular tune. Helps, but I generally find I have to go back to the source in any case.
3 Collections. I'm fascinated with the old collections. Even with all the errors and absurdities in some of the transcriptions, it's really interesting to see the different takes on tunes from a standpoint of historical references. And the collections in themselves tend to provide some sort of background to the tradition (wrong way of putting it, possibly), so that, even where one knows the standard, modern session version of something, it's good to know some of the historical takes that are out there.
I have to say that the idea of 'seeing' the contour of a tune hadn't occurred to me. To me, these tunes exist as sound, not as anything visual.
Does that help, David? Sorry ... there must be many more ...
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by ethical blend
Bless all things notational, for they have a place, if not to the fore ~
Bredna ~ 'Dissing' (=acting or speaking in a disrespectful way) dots ~
First, I don't see it having anything to do, and over time and repeat discussions, with a 'disrespect' for dots. The gist of these discussions is to do with 'reading'. So, while we conveniently us the single syllable metapho of 'dots', if you 'read' the bulk on this subject our focus and concern has to do with 'reading' as in contrast with 'listening'. Under 'reading' ALL forms of notation are covered. 'Dots' are just a fun way of cutting the process down to one syllable in a hole-punch sort of way...
For another kind of contrast, I think you'll find that rather than disrespect everyone I know here who has participated, myself included, has appreciation, respect and even a certain reverence for that act of recording, notation, dots or letters, how ever basic it is. Though, I do know some folk profess a hate for the ABCs...
Anyone who comes under my influence, any teaching I do, includes notation, from the dots specific to scribbling ABC memory jolts on beer coasters, from a bar or two to a whole tune. I also have delved into and love the history behind notation, not just for music, but dance too, and I've even studied the insane art of Laban notation... Unfortunarely there are no cross-eyed smilies possible here, probably avoided as not being PC, which is fair, so instead ~
As to what is most important in my sense of things, and this has never changed and never will ~ the ears have it, up front and way ahead of anything else. After all, what is music but for the ears, so should that not also be the start, middle and end of it all? It is the end, no question there, and for me it is also the heart of it all... Notation is just a convenient tool, sadly too often abused, misused, including as a crutch...
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I see a distinction between 'learning' by the dots and 'playing' by the dots.
As briantheflute pointed out those who agree to play "tune 1 page 81" together can do that...and sound good!!! But when other players at the session learned the same tune as "tune 6 from page 23" or "tune 5 page 19" from different books... well.... um....sometimes that doesn't sound so good.
So I guess no matter what, there comes a time when you do have to put away the dots and play by ear. If not with respect to learning the structure of the tune, then at least for the sake of playing nice with others.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by MagRoibin
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Thanks ethical. In the spirit of the OP I was trying to get some details how the dots were useful from people who agreed on when they were note. To know what I can admit to .
Before giving in the temptation to go off topic in relation to what eiluned and Earl have said. If people are going to say 'sing a dance tune' and by that mean out loud, then most people will have to transpose to fit a comfortable vocal range, most men by quite a lot. So if lying in bed or out walking and running through some tunes in my head there is either a miss-match with what I would sing or with what I would play, or both. And if singing there is a miss-match between the vocalisation and where the fingers would go when playing. Coming to a sticky bit I usually have no problem pulling out a whistle playing through it and then singing in the lower key (when walking that is). But am I using 'finger memory' to do that or an aural memory involving either relative pitch within the tune or a memory in a different key? Using an A whistle I don't have to transpose and I think I can tell that my throat is "in sync". But is that distorting the memory I need to find the right note "automatically" when listening and playing in the normal key, and slowing the development of that ability ?
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Hi Ethical, Hi David! Hi everyone!
A very interesting line of thought, and I think, and hope that others might think, your opinions are worth reading.
When I play a tune I near enough play the original version I learned the first time through, as a sort of acknowledgement of my source; you’ll note from my earlier post that I get most of my tunes from other players.
Some schools of thought say that there is a style of Irish Music which allows for some interpretation.
Others would say that there is a purist style, playing exactly as played by one of “their” masters (this being in the term of tutor, as opposed to rank!), and yet others would suggest that there is an ornamental style.
There are many recordings available now, which I’m sure, represent so many interpretations of just one tune.
And they are all valid!
How much do we like, perhaps, X’s version of the Y Jig, yet like Z’s version of the AA Reel better?
And there I think is the answer.
It is traditional music, and just as one’s speech can vary from one area to another, so the traditional music has its own accents and dialects.
And all the better I say!
How many in England speak “The Queen’s English”?
How many beautiful variations and nuances are there in The Irish Language?
Perhaps there might be a link between the music and the tongue?
I hope this might be received as a positive contribution and not one of division,
All the best, it’s getting late,
Oiche mhaith!
Brian x
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Positive! Gosh, there's enough for about three complete theses in there Brian!
Meanwhile, in whatever language, I really like the vids I've seen of your playing, and that's good enough for me.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I'm not sure I will be capable of honouring the source of a tune in the long term. My speech passively accumulates variations and nuances from elsewhere - the other day having put the kettle on, but forgotten exactly why, I heard myself asking "is it tea that you want ?" Not the Queen's English (irish ? scottish ? both ?). I will probably end up with a hotch-potch of styles that drift a bit with time. So I will listen, listen, listen.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
That is so kind of you Ethical, but I don’t really think I deserve such plaudits. When I was young, like Time Lords ago, as a family, we had to move house.
I had quite a South Lancashire accent as opposed to a “Scouse” accent and when I went to my new school, I literally got my head kicked in! One saving grace was that I could play football and score goals!
But I suppose that gave me an insight, maybe subconsciously, as to what it was to be outside the ring, maybe to be aware of other voices, maybe accents.
Even now in Australia, I pick up other voices.
I’ve played in sessions right through Ireland, let alone the mainland of Britain, as have many others here. Playing with the local musicians meant that one was exposed to a local style and setting, not just a tune (from the dots).
English, as a language is a very much breed of tongues, and is why it is so diverse in tonal qualities, let alone rich interpretation!
I went out and played everywhere I could, when I had the chance (and when, I might add, had nothing much more than my music), and maybe that’s where I found so many different repertoires, and accordingly, the different “musical” accents and settings.
But, as I mentioned above, that’s where and when I met so many lovely people who just wanted to share a tune, and again their friendship.
And I just hope that when you, and others who visit this wonderful site, are able to access these rich resources that we might all benefit from such positive interaction.
I do say this very humbly; I have met some very lovely people in my travels, first and foremost as people.
It then transpires that they just happen to be musicians! But none of us had any dots. One would ask, “Do you know xxx?” “Yeah! We could go into yyy!” and there you go!
“The Session…org(anised of sorts!)”
And what joyous meetings they make!
And let us all remember that we are people first, and when we do that, maybe then can we share the richness of this beautiful music.
And thank you Jeremy for the chance for all of us to espouse our views.
Brian xx
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Well, hopefully we've all learned that there really is no such thing as an anti-dot commando.
Anti-not listening commandos? Oh baby, we've got them in bunches, yours truly included.
The very simple reason why there is a dot backlash here is that far too often, beginners use dots first and not their ears, or never their ears, and think that the dots are the tune.
The less you appear to be listening and the more you appear to be only relying on the dots, the greater the vitriol will be from the 'commandos', because that is doing it wrong.
...and as far as anything concrete can be discerned from this magical, mysterious, ambiguous music we love, it's got to be that using your ears primarily is doing it right.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Well, that and that slides go 'blah dithery dump a doodle, scattery idle fortunoodle'. Dots and slides. Death and taxes.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
PLCs (Pro-Listening Counselors) & DDTs (Dot Dependancy Therapists)
briantheflute ~ "I have met some very lovely people in my travels, first and foremost as people. It then transpires that they just happen to be ~"
~ so much more...
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
David
"But am I using 'finger memory' to do that or an aural memory involving either relative pitch within the tune or a memory in a different key? Using an A whistle I don't have to transpose and I think I can tell that my throat is "in sync". But is that distorting the memory I need to find the right note "automatically" when listening and playing in the normal key, and slowing the development of that ability ?"
When you have a tune in your head it means you know how it goes, you can hum it, sing it probably in any key. In your head you could 'hear it' in any key, to sing out loud would be, as you pointed out, limited by your vocal range. But it is not finger memory. If you know the tune you could probably figure it out in several different keys, limited only by your comfort on the finger board. If you took Jingle Bells, for example. When you hear that in your head do you need to think of starting off 2nd finger on the A string? or two holes covered on the whistle? I suspect you can just sing it, and I suspect that you know that particular tune so well that you could find it on either of your instruments in quite a few different keys.
When we say sing or lilt a tune, it means you know how it goes, you know the melody, the intervals so well you can hum it, sing, reproduce it somehow. If you know an Irish tune so well that you can hum it like that then you can find it on your instrument.
Finding it and being able to play all the different parts is a different matter. You may find that a certain section has difficult string crossings for example, and even though you can find the notes, you'll have to practise them to get them 'into your fingers'
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Twisty
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Fair play SWFL. Of course, you're forgetting the lone trooper who has her scissors ready for dot eradication;
The message goes out. - Emergency Service Announcement: Calling all A-DCs. Dots, Repeat, DOTS have been spotted. Suit up immediately.
Stand down. It is just another pro-dot thread on thesession. Stand down.
"dang - I thought we were being summoned" Posted on February 6th 2010 by airport
I'm happy to forget the dots & focus more on listening to my mates. Is there a phrase, aural literacy (as opposed to visual literacy)? This comes natural to many of you. Myself, I continue to learn how to listen eveyday.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Yet I have not learned typing
. . . everday . . .
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
See what I mean
everyday
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Thanks Twisty. The bit that bothers me is when pacing along running through the tune in my head I get stuck on a few notes but if I run through it on a whistle I find I can play it without thinking about my fingers, score, ABC or anything. Do I have the tune or not ?
So from what you say I guess the thing to do would be to try picking it out on the mandolin. Or maybe sing it out loud making sure I am in a key that will work. Mind you, it doesn't usually happen with tunes I am confident about, so maybe that answers the question.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I find the knowing vs. finger memory discussion interesting. I have mangaged to "memorize" a few tunes. I'm not sure what I'm doing... knowing or storing it inside my muscles? I can "sing" or hum many tunes, but can't seem to start them or find them, or at the very least continue with them, on my fiddle. I wonder if this has something to do with the memory loss. Raises interesting questions about muscle memory over other forms of memory. I'm still wondering if this "issue" arises from memory/brain channels created as a child vs. creating new ones as an adult?
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Random notes... thanks for acknowledging my posts! I'm not trying to be "tiresome" as some might assume.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Master Random!
I believe our own dear airport was simply making lulz, as we say on 'teh innerwebz'.
As children, we all know how to learn aurally already. It's drilled out of us when we learn music as children in any sort of system or type of music where the dots are king.
Babies mimic their mothers' songs. Children mimic each others' songs. All children hear songs and sing them, without dots. How do they do it?!?!? [/mock amazement voice]
We get drilled into us that it's impossible to learn music without dots, which is wrong, as we all know and can sing from memory a boatload of ditties and tunes from TV shows, commercials, other children, parents, etc.
So really, what we're doing when we are ‘become literate aurally’ as you say is reconnecting with that thing we all had as children and babies which allowed us to simply hear and then reproduce sounds and music...
...well, just with a big ol' musical instrument in between the ears and brain, that is.
That's the real kicker here. All humans can hear and reproduce sound, that's how we learn to talk and sing Happy Birthday, Twinkle Twinkle and the Dr. Who theme music. My eight year old can lilt every single piece of music John Williams wrote for all six Star Wars movies, on command. Never looked at the dots once.
The kicker is then the instrument.
Ears > brain > mouth is one thing, and everyone can do it, no excuses. Just think about it for a second, honestly, not 'waa! it's too hard!' and you'll know it's true. Not you, Random, just folks in general. I never hear you whining about anything aural.
So really, the kicker here is the instrument, become comfortable enough with your instrument so that it takes the place of your mouth in the basic human equation that we are all gifted with as (somewhat) hairless primates.
What dots do, and another danger of them, is to give a crutch to you so that you can avoid learning your instrument. HA!
No but seriously folks. If your instrument was as familiar to you as your own flap jaws, you’d be able to return to the halcyon days of youth where it was no more complex than “listen and reproduce”.
…because, it really is no more difficult than that, if you spend enough time with it.
The real kicker is that we’re not learning how to learn by ear. We all know how to do that already. We’re humans. Hairless monkey hear, hairless monkey do.
The kicker is learning how to replace our mouths with a musical instrument!
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Anti-dot commandos
"wondering if this "issue" arises from memory/brain channels created as a child vs. creating new ones as an adult"
As if on cue fiddlechick!
"reconnecting with that thing we all had as children and babies which allowed us to simply hear and then reproduce sounds and music"
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Anti-dot commandos
David
I think you did answer your question. I would suggest to you that the little tricky or 'greasy' spots that you cannot sing are simply little bits of melody that just aren't in your ear yet. Perhaps a bit of melodic fragment that is unusual, or some intervals that you are unused to, especially descending intervals. Don't you find that if the melody has more scales in it that you find it more 'melodic' and thus easier to hum or sing than if it has lots of larger intervals leaping about. I think you go looking for those bits on your instrument because you can't quite find them in your ear.
I don't really think that's a problem, either way it ends up in your ear and your fingers. What's really cool is that the next tune you come across that has similar elements in it will 'stick' more quickly, easily.
Fiddlechick
You say you have trouble extracting a tune you know well enough to actually sing and then find it on your fiddle. That is very interesting. Is this for any music? or just in a medium that you are newer too? Can you find 'Happy Birthday' or 'Jingle Bells'? in almost any key? I ask because I wonder if it could be a degree of knowing. Those two tunes in particular seem to be known so well by people in the western world it's like they're hardwired into the DNA. If you can find those and yet cannot find Irish tunes I would suggest that the tunes you cannot find aren't in your head to the same degree.
There is also a difference between finding the tune that you know in your head and actually having played it enough times that you actually really know it in your fingers. It's possible to confuse the two, in the beginning because finding what you hear in your head is new and not easy yet, and also, I have seen people so good at finding tunes they know in their head, they can be unsure whether the tunes are really 'in their fingers'. Usually they find out when they can play them just fine at home in the living room, but suddenly have trouble in a different situation, ie at a quicker speed, when someone else is listening, in a session etc.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Twisty
Re: Anti-dot commandos
To each their own. And when I say both are important... I mean it. As I said "In this day and age" both are important. Without repeating the reply word for word....People have access to tens of thousands of sheet music/abc files/etc, etc. You can't say the same about recorded music. If you can't read music you're limiting yourself to your repertoire or you're spending all your time trying to find that rare recording of a certain tune so you could learn it when in the meanwhile you could be using that time to practice.
That is what I meant. Go back 100 years...hell go back 15 years and I'd say that being able to read music in trad isnt going to do much for you and you should concentrate just on ear training.
Learn by ear and learn to read. Sit down and listen to a song and try to play along. After a while you recognize keys and patterns and it becomes easier. When You've done that, open up a tune book and play from it. Keep doing it til you know those notes just as well as you know how to read the alphabet.
Quite honestly.. to ask whether sheet music is better than ear training on a trad site is like asking if bartering is more important than money on a financial forum.
Don't limit yourself.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by mimicabin
Re: Anti-dot commandos
mimi, in your first post you said they were "equally important." Now, you've clarified that you didn't really mean that.
"Don't limit yourself."
Agreed. Fully. And that includes, for people who are dot-dependent, doing whatever it takes to learn to play by ear so that you can pick up tunes on the fly, learn tunes from other players in person, etc.
There are folks in both camps who think that whichever skill they lack is too hard or "beyond me." It's really not that difficult to both play by ear and read the various written notations.
# Posted on February 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
... what I was going to say, Miss L ... you've saved me the bother ...
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Thanks again Twisty - "in your ear and your fingers". Your comment to Fiddlechick7, particularly the second paragraph, is food for thought. I shall go off and think.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Learning to play scales on an instrument is the beginning of building the muscle memory to tie together sounds with finger placement. After that learning to play tunes builds a repertoire of muscle memory for music that moves in more ways than scale wise, alternatively you can play exercises from a book or teacher or tailor your own to your needs and goals. Being able to sing alone won't help you play an instrument. At first it takes deliberate intent to reproduce sounds that you want. You have to learn proper finger positioning from a teacher or mentor, or you will spend a long time making no music. I'd be interested to learn who plays fiddle without having been told by somebody where to put their fingers to play a G scale.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Anti-dot commandos
This brings in another long and repeatedly discussed topic, whether it is better to learn the music, which possesses, as I see it, all the scales and studies you could want, or spending time on scales and studies? A search of discussions will show you where that has gone in the past. It may work for some, but I think the music is enough study in and of itself. As to how it has generally been handled traditionally ~ with the music, not Sevcik or Czerny...
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by ceolachan
Different forms of animation & mechanization
& like david_h ~ ditto to MLH ~ with regards to ~ "don't limit yourself!"
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Scales, the musical version of writing sentences a hundred times on the bulletin board instead of going to recess. Boring!
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Unless you're Bart Simpson in which case what you write is pretty damned funny.
http://bartsblackboard.com/
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Anti-dot commandos
In all seriousness, I tell beginning pipers that they HAVE to be that boring, playing scales and things, until they come to grips with the mechanics of the instrument. Even experienced musicians get flummoxed by the uilleann pipes. Several excellent border pipers (who also play whistle), far better musicians than me, have had a go on it just attempting to play tunes at sessions. But the pressure and fingerings for the uilleann pipes are substantially different from whistles and border pipes; the result being they could not get the things to play in tune.
Once you can play it in tune, I wouldn't be fecked practicing scales.
I might recommend writing a blackboard 100 times, "If the back D is breaking, you're squeezing too bloody hard!"
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Anti-depressant exercises
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Anti-depressant for who?
I think whoever is singing the scales should bring the Prozac. For me.
Whisky is also an option.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Anti-dot commandos
This is a neat use of dots:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c28AVMvFuiU
Think you could figure all that out by ear?
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I learned fiddle without playing scales and without anyone to show me where my fingers were supposed to go. My ears told me that. Of course, I already knew what music on a 5 string banjo and guitar sounded like (though I didn't so scales on them, either).
Practicing scales and arpeggios is great for rock and jazz and other chord-progression-based improvisational music. Not so much for Irish music. The tunes are all the "practice etudes" you need. As llig likes to say, scales are just crap tunes.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Jack, actually, that's a lot easier for me to follow by ear than from the dots. And I noticed at least two spots where the dots weren't accurate transcriptions of the music being played.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
In fact, I'd say those dots from Jack's link are next to useless for getting the feel of that tune. They don't show the many slides, vocal vibrato, and some fingered vibrato.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I've been thinking
. This muscle memory/kynesthetic learning business almost always gets criticised on this board. But that's usually in the context of learning to play the right notes by getting our fingers into that habit, or turning up at a session and doing what we have practiced at home without paying attention to what our ears are telling us.
Surely a huge part of learning an instrument is kynesthetic learning **with auditory feedback**. What Silver Spear is saying. Piper has to squeeze right, fiddler has to bow right, fluter has to blow right. But those are distinct from knowing which note to play for a tune.
However, how much of practicing a tune to make it sound how we want is also 'muscle memory', getting it into our fingers ? With auditory feedback.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I don't find the dots nearly as annoying as tablature. Honestly, I dont undrstand it. It's like reading music without actually reading music. I've known some otherwise good players who will resort to converting standard notation to tablature using specialized software. Seems like alot of extra work to me.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by croxton
Whisky in the jar ~ & hip flask
Forget the dots Jack, very much skeletal compared to what's happening, which I'm enjoying listening to. Is that a nai?
Back to topic, well, the one left off last night with dear Silver Spear and seeded by Earl...
It would be crazy of me to refuse resources that might help me help someone else to make connections, including connecting the dots to audio and vice versa. And scales and little exercises too, realizing each person is unique and requires seperate consideration, as best able. But, if I use scales I don't introduce them to start via dots or ABCs, but by ear. I see their use with beginners and in making a gentle connection of tone to instrument, with the emphasis on 'gentle', meaning relaxed, unhurried. It can be a useful way to first introduce someone to cause and effect ~ do this and hear that...
But, I'm in synch with MLH's and Llig's lovely ways with phrasing here ~ "The tunes are all the 'practice etudes' you need." ~ after some basic ease is achieved with knowing where the music is, but primarily, where possible, using the music toward that end too.
First steps in EAR TRAINING - from ones ears to ones instrument of choice, and back again - can benefit from basic scales and simple familiar tunes, even Suzuki's use of things like "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" and "Mary Had a Little Lamb" (with mint sauce)... But there are plenty of fine simple tunes in the tradition to meet that need, in any tradition. But, it sometimes is best to start with what one is familiar with for starters, including the basic steps up and down a scale...
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I think at the beginning the kinesthetic learning is key. You'd have to be way more of a naturally talented (whatever that means) musician than myself to be able to sort out the bag bellows thing and figure out the fingerings for all the notes on a chanter while playing a tune. Especially if you're new to Irish music and can't even play any tunes. That's brilliant that you could figure it out on a fiddle without faffing around with scales, Will, but I couldn't. You don't need to play scales, you can play any combination of notes you want, but I find most people learning the pipes need to practice dull, long notes until they can control bag and bellows.
That said, I think the kinesthetic thing becomes autopilot. Your fingers know where the notes are. The bowing or the squeezing or breathing or pumping (now I'm writing a bad porn script) becomes automatic and you don't think about how and where to place each note. Then my theory is that this is where the link between the note in your head and whatever your fingers are doing develop. If I hear a tune in a different key than the one I normally play it in, I can transcribe on the fly (unless someone is playing it in something bizarre like F). I couldn't have done that five years ago.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Sometimes accused of being long winded ~
Ah, yes ~ and long notes held ~ for finding control and tone, whatever the instrument being played...
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
May be it would help some people with a creative streak to invent tunes to fit what they can do on the instrument and push away a little at a time at difficult keys and finger positions. I find this can be fun and there are some tunes out there that may be similarily demanding and may have been the result of this sort of process.
Work from what you can do to what you find difficult a bit at a time.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by eiluned
Re: Anti-dot commandos
James Scott Skinner was doing this a century ago!
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Anti-dot commandos
As you say, SilverSpear, the kinesthetic memory is helpful when you're first starting out. Ultimately, it helps you with your comfort level on your given instrument. But when you're first starting out, the natural inclination is to use it to help with your comfort level of a specific tune.
A lot of people that are learning this music are learning both the music and their instrument at the same time. It's natural to rely on the kinesthetic memory to help with your comfort level of a particular tune, but I always try to encourage people to get past that as soon as they can. If you rely on your fingers to remember how the tune goes, then it's common to get "lost" when you miss a note, because your fingers lose the reference point of where to go next.
When you get to the point where you can internalize the tune, then you don't have that problem. And that's the point in time where you can start expressing the music, instead of regurgitating it.
# Posted on February 9th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Hey Rev, Sometimes regurgitating is good so you can chew on it for a while. ( ;
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I don't actually practice scales, but when I was learning music at a young age (I was mostly self taught with a few mentors through the years who taught me what I wanted to know at the time) I got to a point where I got curious about scales and I started learning violin and practiced scales only to the point where I could understand how to construct any given scale that I needed when the time came to learn something in a different key, I only play in keys mentioned in my earlier thread on modes, enharmonic keys are of no importance to the majority of musicians, no matter what musical school you are a part of. A casual community college music theory/ ear training/ sight singing course was more than enough to give me the tools I needed. Now I never practice scales and I kind of laugh to myself when experienced musicians practice scales to warm up, it's just become sort of a cliche. Repetition and drills are really not that important but I have submitted myself to it in the past, but I also learned a lot of new skills for constructing harmonies to any melody, and how to deliberately sing notes and compose in my head. I think it's a good idea for any musician to fully submerse themselves in something musical that challenges them daily, such as a music course, joining a musical group even if you feel you are not good enough, going to workshops and festivals, or joining a community orchestra, going to sessions is a given. As far as exercises go, I find myself practicing ascending and descending thirds more often than scales, and when I encounter scales in tunes I try to play it in thirds in variations.
Silver Spear, it's funny you should mention the key of F, it's probably my favorite key. It is harder to intonate on the fiddle in general, but it requires no long reach to the high B because it's Bb, also tunes in G dorian are fabulous. I am minding less and less to play tunes in the Bb key signature as well as the Eb is usually not so predominant to be truly difficult. At our session a banjo player, a flutist and I have been doing a set of Eileen Curran(G dor) to Humours of Westport(F). Nobody else plays but nobody minds because they are such fabulous tunes. When I originally decided to learn both of these tunes it was because they presented the extreme challenge of playing Bb, but the tunes dug themselves to deep that I began seeking out as many F tunes I could get my ears on. The first reel I wrote is in Bb, you can find it in my profile, and yes it's playable, the b part is difficult but can be modified in all sorts of ways, it's musically instinctual though, my flautist friend loves it.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Hmm. I've quit worrying so much if I am using finger memory to help me out when I can't sing a bit in my head. I think its usually the sound of the instrument in the phrase before that retrieves the bit that is sticking. Maybe not all the time though. Wierd things heads.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
When I was in primary school and high school I was learning to play the French horn and I was in the high school choir. My horn teacher and choir director tried, at various times, to teach me music theory in the mathematical ways people teach it and I never ever came close to understanding it. I'm pretty incompetent at math. I just remember thinking, "Ah, Jesus wept, they're going on about diminished thirds again" and my brain would shut off.
Since I started learning Irish music a bit over five years ago, I have acquired a working knowledge of music theory. I know enough to correctly identify the key of most tunes I play and I recognise which notes go in which chords (so long as I don't have to name the chord), enough to get by on regs (if I had them) and play variations. I'd describe it as a quantitative understanding rather than a qualitative one. My friend asked me tonight, "So what's the relative minor of Dmaj?" I stared blankly. She then said, "What's three notes down from D?" I admit, I am so bad at math (or counting) that I was trying to work out which note was three notes down from D for a while. My mate finally said, "It's Bm!"
Which was suddenly obvious because you have a zillion tunes like the Earl's Chair which are D major/Bm-ish. I recognised that relationship, I knew those two keys had some kind of connection, but not in an answering-music-theory-on-exam sort of way. If I heard you playing tunes in those keys I'd recognise it as one of those Dmaj/Bm-ish tunes, no bother. It's more of a feel, I guess, than thinking about the math.
Does anyone else know what I am on about?
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Yeah SilverSpear, I know what you're about. You've just discovered that theory is actually just a description of harmonic and melodic kinds of things that actually happen in music. Sticking a name with something you already know and understand makes sense while trying to abstractly talk about the terms does not. Too many folks do the latter and confuse folks whereas if they did the former folks would say "oh yeah of course." In sum, theory can be cumbersome and complex when discussed without real reference to the music one understands. It is simple when related to musical materials one has become familiar with. Speaking of which I'll bet you know a bunch of G major/Emin-ish tunes too don't you. Same thing at work...
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by cboody
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Yes. I quite like the theory but it only takes me so far because I don't know what things talked about sound like. Doing it the other way - for example noticing that melody does something distinctive and wondering what it is called or how it works - requires patient folk around (or on the web) who do know the theory to explain it. Or eavesdroppng on web conversations; the comments in the tunes section here are sometimes good.
Whoever decided that the relative minor of D is three notes down does not play the whistle. Its five notes up
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Six notes up. Unless you think B is two notes down, not three ...
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Well spotted - I suppose I was using a system where E is one note up from D and C is one note down from D. I wonder if SS's friend really said "What's a third down from D ?"
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Yeah if you go up two notes or down two notes, you've just made an interval of a third, the inversion of which is a sixth. 3 and 6 add up to 9, as do all inversions. It's strange how Irish music shifts in tonality between relative majors and minors yet, when you think about key relationships as they actually apply. E dorian is more common than E minor and is most related to D, but a part of a tune might sound in G major for a while, and cleverly avoid C notes finally using at as an escape to jump back to the D in order to end up back to E.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Curiosity and persistence can teach you virtually all the music theory you’ll ever want to know. It’s really not difficult at all, once you establish your own way of thinking about it. With an instrument - like the guitar or piano - that makes it easy to build chords and see how they move and how the melody moves through them, you can experiment and hear and see what’s happening. You might not know the standard terminology, but that’s not hard to pick up if you ever need it. When I read bits of music theory, I find that I’m mainly learning words for talking about what I already understand in my own way.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Anti-dot commandos
'"Ah, Jesus wept, they're going on about diminished thirds again" and my brain would shut off.'
Amen sister. Makes my eyes go all o__O.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Anti-dot commandos
"Curiosity and persistence can teach you virtually all the music theory you’ll ever want to know. It’s really not difficult at all, once you establish your own way of thinking about it."
--- AND---
"I read bits of music theory, I find that I’m mainly learning words for talking about what I already understand in my own way."
By Bob himself. Very well put. This wins my nomination for best post of the new year thus far, right after llig's banjo comment that got him banned, which I thought was very funny.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by shanty
Re: Anti-dot commandos
"... a part of a tune might sound in G major for a while, and cleverly avoid C notes finally using at as an escape to jump back to the D in order to end up back to E."
Tunes are such sneaky little smart alecs.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Besides diminished thirds, there can also be augmented seconds and augminished fourths and demented fifths but that is crazy.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Anti-dot commandos
I will say that I am glad I got a thorough training in both music theory and ear training while I was a music major in college. This training came in very handy when I began playing piano at a local blues jam where they always played by ear and never, ever used sheet music (otherwise known as "dots"). After playing piano at this blues jam for five years, I also began playing piano at the local Irish sessions when some local musicians started these Irish sessions. My experience, background, and training was very helpful to me when I first began playing piano at the Irish sessions.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Anti-dot commandos
'Demented Fifths' - Never again for this cat. I leave drinking entire demented fifths of any libation to the youth.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Well, in one sitting, that is. Over a few days? Well...
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Anti-dot commandos
The best tunes suggest they will head one way, then head the other way, and do that in a manner that feels wholly natural--start in one mode, suggest another, play with the rhythm or against it. And you think to yourself, "Woah, nice one!"
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Anti-dot commandos
If you think about relative minors and majors as three note chords which have two notes in common. This is much easier to see on a piano keyboard.
G major chord has the notes G and B and D - it's relative minor is E minor, which also contains the notes G and B, but you lose the D - and add an E.
Another example is D major
It has D and F# and A - it's relative minor is B Minor, which has D and F# but lose the A this time and add a B.
It is the sound of the common notes between the chords which give the close relationship. The change of feel gives us that gorgeous change of mood. Sorry, I know a lot of people out there are sucking eggs quite happily, but it took a long while for me to assimilate this meaning when I first started.
Hope this helps a few people rather than confuses further.
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by eiluned
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Hi Eiluned! Greetings to all!
I’ve just dropped in and found how this thread has developed…wonderful!
I contributed, oh, a few years back now on exactly the point you’ve made Eiluned. It was to explain how substitute chords can be put in to an accompaniment and the way you just explained is near enough what I wrote.
I seem to recall that I gave a setting for the Sally Gardens reel, illustrating just those points, that the connection between a major chord and its “relative” minor is just one note away.
It’s a wonderful thing and so opens the tonal range, for both the player and the listener.
I was never taught music, but when it is part of your daily intake it sort of sneaks in to your system
So, hopefully without getting too technical, how a major sixth is an inversion of a minor seventh, and likewise a major seventh to a minor sixth, was one of the wheel invention days for me!
In case some don’t get what I’m saying I’ll try and give a simplified explanation.
C major is C E G and C major 6th is C E G A.
A minor is A C E and A minor 7th is A C E G.
So as Eiluned mentioned you can see where the relationship is between the two chords.
Now if you go to the next point, major seventh, and minor sixth you get
C major 7th is C E G B and if you take the E G B (which is E minor) and add the C you then get E minor sixth.
And this is why Am and Em are found as chords in the key of C.
Sometimes I’ve heard this called substitution and it is very common in jazz.
Also, if you play the standard major chord underneath and add a minor over the top, some wonderful sounds happen.
An example, play a standard C major, just C E G. Add a G minor over the top, G Bb D and you then have the chord C 9. It’s understood that any ninth chord incorporates the flattened seventh which is why it is Bb as opposed to B as in the major seventh.
This is where guitars, bouzoukis and mandolins can have such fun by playing to each other, and why less can open up more ideas the more.
I would add that the spacing between the notes can play a big part in how one hears this.
I find that there’s more space on my harp or piano than on the neck of a guitar, but even then, judicious fret and string selection opens up a diverse range of options.
I hope that this is easy for people who don’t play chords to understand.
All the best to everyone!
Brian xx
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Said this once and it didn't post. Apologies if it shows up twice.
Not to take this discussion too far down the road of geekiness, but the real difference between, say, Amin7 and C6 is the bass line played under the chord, and perhaps for jazz keyboard players the spacing of the notes. So it is important for bass players or keyboard players to know which is which, but probably not too important in Irish trad. What does happen in Irish trad is two backup players playing two different chords, say Am and Cmaj resulting in the sound of an Am7 or C6...depending on the bass notes. It is probably worth noting that you'll find all sorts of implications in the melodies too. For example edB edB can clearly imply that emin7/G6 sound.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by cboody
Chords ~ Major 6th sixth inversion Minor 7th seventh
Hmmmm, what's that about wandering from one idea to another? Someone might consider starting a new thread on this very topic so that if someone tries to search for it in the future they are likely to find it... For now I've added a few search words in the 'Subject' header...
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by ceolachan
Relative Keys
Relative keys ~
All these have the same two sharps, F# & C#
D Major, of course,
b minor, as you know,
E Dorian ~ WHAHOO!!!
A Mixolydian ~ Tuh duh!
& then there's the other common one with just F# in it
G Major
e minor
A Dorian
D Mixolydian
But let's clear the deck, C, no accidentals
C Major
a minor
D Dorian
G Mixolydian
They each float around the core note and resolve there too, in general, so to take a C Major tune home we'd finish with C, to take an a minor tune home we'd finish on a...
Someone asked... It's all relative to me ~ 'c'
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Anti-dot commandos
When I was a young boy, as my father worked his way up through the ranks of the Army, I remember that he was a major for a few years, so I guess I can say I once had a relative major, back when I was a relative minor.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Al, the two teenage siblings who created this album - http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/3134 - had the same idea as you
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Wasn't there some guy in Catch 22 who was Major Major?
Good point Ceolachan!
Brian xx
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Major Major Major Major in fact. His father had sadistically named him Major Major Major. Then, later, an IBM computer with a sense of humour promoted him to the rank of Major.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Anti-dot commandos
How many people can think their way through the theory without ever using a dot or two help understand it ?
Just to add an on-topic comment - maybe Random_notes will come back to his discussion.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
That's my head done in.
What do you get when you drop a piano down a mineshaft?
Ab minor
What do you say as you drop the piano?
Bb minor
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Anti-dot commandos
And then on to Cb minor, for which I reckon the key signature would be 4 flats and 3 double-flats. Enharmonically, of course, that would be B minor but I would call that cheating.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Anti-dot commandos
That's what you say to others as you point down the mineshaft, after you've dropped the piano.
Cb minor?
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Yes indeed. To which they duly reply "Gee, diminished!"
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Augie, augie in come free!
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by ceolachan
Anti-climatic commandos
david_h, the piano keyboard is more useful for *visual* teaching of (academic) music theory. Play the white keys beginning on Middle C ~ C scale. C major triad ~ CEG [1-3-5]. Etc. & so forth.
Looks silly on the page. With a real piano you also have the aural experience. Sheet music is not a requirement for teaching or learning theory. minor jokes are another story ~ they are requisite for any real appreciation of music theory.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Anti-dot commandos
When you drop a piano on an Army base, the key you get is a flat major which opens the door to all sorts of interesting ragtime tunes.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Isn't it funny that we've joined this discussion to support or not, the use of written music for various purposes in traditional music and we've ended up writing about music theory.
I suppose to bring the thread back a bit - from personal experience I cannot think about it as I play.I am not nearly quick enough to intellectualise stuff like this. Truth be known, beyond triads and basic harmony, I can hear it far better than I can think it. I am also hooked into the melody.
It is very interesting to have the next little bit of the story become clear gradually as I get older. I failed miserably at trying to understand harmony, counterpoint etcetera when I was younger. It never suited the way I needed to learn at the time.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by eiluned
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Ah, yes, good point Random. And a reminder to me that within arms reach but buried under assorted junk is a battery-powered toy keyboard. Bought for £2 in a charity shop to practice some unexpected intervals in a vocal part. I now find that it has the white notes labelled with felt pen and a sticker with instructions to myself on how to stop it playing Twinkle Twinkle on its own if it takes it into its electronic mind to do so.
I will put it into use as you suggest.
# Posted on February 11th 2010 by David50
Re: Anti-dot commandos
A chairde! Hello again!
Eiluned, a very interesting point.
I think what this thread has demonstrated, though, with the fact that so much incredible theory has been shared, is the inherent understanding we all have of our music, our instruments, and possibly that is why we do go out and play without the dots.
I feel that if you are intimately related to your instrument and to the tune, then, just as in any relationship, moods, rhythms and feelings all fluctuate, and this gives rise to variations and interpretations.
One can say that the dots are there for reference, maybe a security blanket of sorts, but basically it means that those who are dependent on them are not free to extemporise or play as the mood takes them.
I don’t play variations because there is a need to. They just happen, and alluding to a point made much earlier in this thread, I must say that I do believe that scale and arpeggio skills are a great asset to any musician, classical, jazz, or as in our case, traditional.
And some of the guitarists I have worked with, because they are so acquainted with the tune, give such beautiful variations, that these in turn stimulate me into exploring the tune even more, and this is how interpretations occur.
When I started to learn to play I just played every note I could, every scale I could hear in my head, and that has put me in the position that when someone sings or plays in a relatively “foreign” key,(in traditional circles, that is) my ear takes me there straight away.
For someone to be singing in Cminor or B major is not uncommon. In traditional music however these keys are not used so much for tunes, but they certainly exist in singing. I remember a lovely singer in Somerset who naturally sang in flats. The guitarist would insist on playing in a more familiar key, in other words in stead of Db, take it up a semitone and play in D, but it affected the tonal quality of the song.
However I have played with some magnificent fiddle players, and I stress fiddle as opposed to violin, and they’ve ripped into Eb or Fm, Tommy Peoples, Danny Meehan, to name but a few.
Please don’t think of this as name dropping, I’m quoting these people because I was there and they did play in these keys. Some years ago some members here asserted that for fiddle players to use these keys their fiddles were simply tuned up!
I remember sitting in Jimmy McHugh’s front room in Glasgow and he looked over and winked and said “F#m” and proceeded to play Cooley’s Reel. You just don’t think of the notes, you think of the tune.
I have some calligraphic skills, and am able not only to write backwards, but also upside down and backwards. I explain to pupils that I don’t think of what letters I am writing, I focus on what is to be written, the words, and if you know, through practice, what you are doing, then the words just flow out, just as the tunes.
So basically, yes, dots are good for communication, like keyboards or pens for writing, but we all learned to speak before we ever learned to make our letters, didn’t we?
Best to everyone
Brian xx
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: Anti-dot commandos
Hi Brian
"So basically, yes, dots are good for communication, like keyboards or pens for writing, but we all learned to speak before we ever learned to make our letters, didn’t we?"
This has been something that I've been banging on about to many teachers of music I know who seem to think that learning music literacy is the be all and end all and that pupils are "failng" if they cannot do it for whatever reason. I only have to point out some brilliant trad musiciains who barely read - and who generally don't see the need to do so. They are hardly failures, but formal music lessons would have it that they are.
It is a question of whether music reading is percieved as part of some sort of qualification, which makes it desirable, or just a useful skill to have as a musician, which can be employed in certain circumstances, for specific tasks - but not for other musical activities such as trad session playing.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by eiluned