I always wanted to play the fiddle and had lessons when I was in my twenties but I was a bit of a dosser then and didn't get very far with it.
I am now in my late thirties and I still have a hankering to learn. Is it too late for me, do ye think? I don't want to be mediocre at it for the rest of my life, I would like to be good enough some day to join in, in the sessions... How long does it take to be good enough for that? I know it depends on how quick I learn and how much i practise etc, but roughly on average, how many years does it take?
I know it's a stupid question, but humour me, will ye...!!!
Im in my mid - late 40s and started playing the banjo when I turned 40, started going to sessions a few yrs later and am still going. Its NEVER too late to learn. Just think, if you had started playing 10 yrs ago, what could be like now?
If you start playing now, what could you be like in 10 yrs time?
You will never know if you dont try!
On a side issue, a personal gripe of mine is people saying to me "oh Id LOVE to play an (insert instrument of choice here) but Im not musical enough/dont have time/dont know where to start/some other excuse).
If you really want to play, you can, simple as that!
Well... I was 53 when I started to learn fiddle and playing in sessions within a year. I had played guitar and mandolin before that but the fiddle is so different. The left hand fingering is the same as mandolin but really the fiddle is all about bowing technique so the mandolin didn't help all that much. Anyway Its NEVER too late to learn. Late 30's ? you're still a kid. Find a teacher and get stuck in you wont regret it.
Someone I know who's tried out practically every instrument in his time (he's basically a flute player) started practising the fiddle seriously at I think fifty-ish, if not after. He's coming on OK with the jigs and if he's not quite there with the reels, he's on the way. But fiddle takes time. You'll have to put aside the idea of sounding like Kevin Burke / Frankie Gavin / Tommy Peoples etc. the year after next, unless that is you look down after a tune and see them sitting at your feet imploring tips, which is improbable...
And anyway a fundamental human right is the right to have an interest that you enjoy no matter how crap you are at it. Ever played 5-a-sides with your mates? ever give a second thought to the fact that you (presumably) aren't Pele?
Of course inflicting yourself on other people requires a bit more tact and some experience/facility. But lack of skill is no debarment from something that gives you pleasure and doesn't impinge on others.
Mate of mine who only played guitar taught himself the mandolin in his late 30s and moved on to the fiddle in his mid-40s. The mandolin is his main session instrument but he's getting there with the fiddle. I didn't know any tunes and had never played in front of people until I reached 42. Picking things up may come a bit more slowly as the years advance but the compensation is that you're far more likely to see the whole thing as a load of fun than some young buck who's obsessed with playing at the speed of light and outdoing everyone else.
Never to late to learn and please remember that you continue to learn forever.
" I don't want to be mediocre at it for the rest of my life"
Everybody's view of mediocrity differs. I think the important thing is to continue to improve and have the desire to do so rather than just "rest on your laurels".
Sometimes, this is easier said than done if other commitments get in the way or if you go off on a tangent...as often happens.
"good enough some day to join in, in the sessions"
That doesn't take too long at all, actually. However, you might not make that much of a contribution for a while and it won't be possible to take part in every session. Even the more experienced players will sometimes feel that it's appropriate to "sit out" in certain situations.
Dear Y W W
Your post has struck a chord with me. I started fiddle in my mid-forties having played for about a year when I was 11. It sounds like you've probably got past the most difficult part already.Finding how to make a sound with the bow on the string. I think the most important factor is the amount of time you are prepared to spend playing. The progress you make really is all down to the amount of hours you put in. But if you find you love it it will not seem like work. It will not be a chore but a joy.
Now five years in I wish I had started years earlier. It is never too late and don't let anyone tell you so. And don't discourage yourself by comparing yourself with other players (full respect to Nicholas but I don't even think you should think like that). You won't know how good you could be until you start. And don't be discouraged if you're plugging away doing the right thing and feel like you're not getting anywhere. Progress can be uneven but putting in the playing hours will always pay off eventually. I think you are in a very good place now and I envy you a bit. The very best of luck to you
There are good reasons to suppose that, as an adult, learning new motor and mental skills - as you would with most musical instruments - helps the brain to keep functioning better as you get older. It's not unusual in amateur musical groups (sessions, bands, orchestras etc) to find active musicians in their 70s, 80s and even 90s. Professional orchestras are different though - most players must retire when they reach 60 or 65.
I'll make this further, and important, point. An adult beginner needs the guidance of an experienced teacher as soon as possible. Teaching an adult is different to teaching a child - a main point being that the teacher can explain and discuss things with the adult at a level that wouldn't be possible with a child.
Count on anywhere between 3 and 6 years before you begin to sound reasonably ok (a figure which probably varies hugely, but after 4 years flute, some good players have told me that I should learn some more tunes - as opposed to try to improve the tunes I already know). A mate of mine started fiddle at the same time and he is finally getting there as well.
Also, my playing took off quicker than his, but he's been catching up an impressive amount this past year.
Late 50's, coming up to 3 years on flute and Tirno's timing seems about right. A long way to go but I feeling confident that it will get far enough for it to have been worth the effort. I rarely manage shanty's 2 hours a day but that's the sort of time I'm needing. The "even if you can only manage 20 minutes a day" business just won't do it for me at my age. Not sure it ever would have done.
Never! To see the pleasure that some folks get from a little music is proof enough of that. The greater joy is that with age we have fewer expectations and can generally, if not always, let go and just have fun with it. It is better to come to this tradition relaxed than to press too hard, as if preparing for exams or a competition... The greater joy is finding the right teacher for your needs who will inspire you and boost your confidence, while direction you to awareness of every step of progress you make, however small, while raising your appreciation for the music, for the tradition.
Remember not to practice tension or frustration. When you feel that starting to slip in, slow down, and if necessary put the instrument away, maybe go for a walk. Never play faster than you can and still hold a recognizeable melody and a decent tempo...
Lazyhound is right, you absolutely must get a teacher (and it is important to get one who teaches Irish music, not any old violin teacher) or you will struggle to get the bowing right.
It really depends what is more important to you, the journey or the point of arrival (getting to be better than mediocre and able to play out with others). From the way that you pose your question it sounds like the latter. If that's the case then in my view you are going to need to fast-track your development by spending a fair bit of your practice time on the boring stuff that builds raw technique - scales, arpeggios, bowing studies etc - in parallel with learning to play tunes in an Irish style. Either way, finding a good teacher is paramount.
I speak as someone who, many years ago, taught himself to play the fiddle and made good initial progress but then remained on the wrong side of mediocrity no matter how much I practised. It took four years of lessons to get my technique straightened out and get me progressing again.
nope, I picked it up in october 2009 and since then I haven't looked back ... I was very very very - utterly - lucky to find an excellent teacher (A "classical" violin-player who teaches in a music school and enjoys himself even more then I am in fiddling them fiddle tunes and old-timey tunes I keep harassing him with - he just gets exasperated with my total lack of "system-playing" he calls it - every other tune he exclaims : "but where's the system in that?" or "why do I bother to notate anything you just won't stick to the notation", I once had him rolling on the floor when we played "Jordan is a hard road to travel" and he said "you don't play the A that's written down here", to which I replied "yeah well, you know, muscicologist are still debating on wether that should be an A or a G"...
Just enjoy the making of music and spread that joy around !
Of course it's never too late. Too late for what? For you to do something you've always wanted to and to have fun doing it? Go on with ya! Tear into it!
If you're in your late thirties and you feel that your movement and reflexes are not remarkably worse than they were ten years earlier, then your ability to learn the fiddle is probably not remarkably diminished either. I think the main reason middle-aged people may not learn an instrument as well as a young person is not diminished ability, but too many other distractions. Make a big enough space for it in your life and you’ll do fine.
Never - Just go for it. If there is an instrument you're interested in and you feel a passion for it, then go ahead. I got a set of uilleann .pipes when I was 32, got nowhere, put them away, then 12 years later started to practice regularly and learnt to tune them. Finally got to my first Miltown piping class in 96', and haven't looked back since, be prepared to practice though. Started playing the flute about 6 years ago - great fun. All the best
I took up the box in my mid 40's and the fiddle in mid 50's. I take a weekly fiddle lesson with a great teacher. I'm really enjoying the challenge and believe me, it is a challenge. After two years of fiddling, I don't feel ready for a session yet but I'm getting close. Practice and lots of it is the key. Go for it!
What? No posts from llig leachim yet? The thread is not yet complete.
Go for it, my man. I would take up fiddle if I had the time to dedicate to it. Just be prepared for it to take years before you actually feel decent about your playing, but it's a load of fun. Careful when you start playing at sessions, though, it is addictive.
I'm not learning fiddle, but I decided to try to learn uilleann pipes -- at 53. I've been going about 15 months now, and I just have fun. I'll never be a pro, but I've a couple friends who play fiddle and another couple who play guitar, and I'm at the point now where I can get together with them and play and have fun -- and that's what it's all about.
Just have fun. Michael Cooney told me "enjoy the journey." Don't worry about where you're going, just go and have fun as you do.
Do you want to be world class, make one and all think you were born in a bothy deep in the geaeltacht? Might be too late for that. But that still leaves a lot of room to be pretty decent and have a lot of fun. Start now with a teacher, practice 1-3 hours a day and you’ll be pretty good in a few years. But how good will you be in a few years if you never start?
I started learning fiddle at 28. Best thing I've ever done with myself. Ironically, the reason I didn't start ten years earlier was because I thought I was too old. Still kicking myself over that.
I'm fortunate enough to be in a community with plenty of adult beginners. My teacher, an excellent player, started as an adult - I wish he'd told me that when I'd begun, as it would have saved me plenty of grief. Before I'd started, I'd heard from any number of folks that adults could never expect to get very far on the instrument - our joints aren't as flexible, our brains aren't as plastic, etc. But I know that as a child I didn't have the patience I do now, and that helps a lot. (I played piano as a kid, and didn't get very far - in part, I'm sure, because I wasn't patient enough to stick with something I wasn't good at immediately.) Years of listening to the music have also given me insight that has allowed me, I'm sure, to progress more quickly than folks who are brand new to both the instrument and the genre. As far as I can tell, though, there's one huge disadvantage to starting as an adult: adult beginners, unlike child beginners, KNOW that they sound like cr@p. Don't let yourself get too demoralized at the beginning (and even a few years in), and you'll be fine.
Regarding how long it takes to be able to play in sessions - my teacher told me that his goal for his students was to have them able to play slow tunes within 6 months. I practiced like a maniac, and was able to play airs and a few slides within 3 or so, jigs a few months later, and then it took me a good year or so after that before I could play any reels at speed. YMMV. (I cringe to remember those days - I know I made a huge mess of the tunes during those early days...er, years. Mine was a very open session; I visited a more advanced session a year in and was way over my head. How long it will take you to play in sessions depends at least as much on the generosity of your session mates as it does on anything else )
"Do you want to learn, or just wish you could play? "
Gam - exactly the right question. I've never put it so bluntly, at least not with the student in the room, but that's the basis on which I've always accepted or rejected students.
If the goal is to be something - to be a great fiddler, for example - you won't enjoy what it takes to get there and you'll probably find that once you get there it's not worth it, because you don't actually want to play the fiddle. You just want to be a fiddler. If the goal is to do something - to play the fiddle - then you'll enjoy every step of learning it, and once you get there, you'll find that there's plenty more to enjoy.
It's a subtle distinction, but worth making in any endeavor of this sort.
By the way, the 10K hours of practice notion seems to suffer from a major selection bias problem. I wouldn't take it too seriously as a hypothesis, myself. It's pretty amateur work, at least as far as that article gives it.
Among other problems, it suggests that all practice is interchangeable; any teacher knows that this is not so. It also suggests that practice is simply additive, which it isn't. Efficient practice, in the first two years of study, is a matter of 15-30 minutes a day, no more. It also ignores the erosion effect, even though the article quotes Horowitz summarizing it precisely. So taking the idea literally, a player who played for eight hours every Sunday and put the fiddle in the case until the next Sunday would be more than twice as good after a fixed time as a player who played for half an hour every day. I don't think I'm out of line in saying that's ridiculous.
I don't want to kick off some sort of holy war on the topic, but I just don't think the idea has much to recommend it.
(I also don't think much of the article's application of the so-called research to business, but that's a kettle of fish of a different color - MBA types are always looking for real science to make their nonsense look good, this doesn't reflect on real science at all)
Do you love music? And how else would you spend your time? It can be tough if you have young kids; time is always short, and it can be hard to fit woodshed time in. But the alternative is never to be anything but a spectator. How sad is that?
I want to play like Liz Carroll, but that is never going to happen. So what? What has happened is that my life is so much richer because I can make my own music, play with friends, play with complete strangers, look forward to going home at night and cracking open the fiddle case. I don't think I'll be on my deathbed thinking "gee, I wish I hadn't wasted all that time playing my fiddle; could have been scrubbing toilets/watching bad TV/going to the mall/whatever." You think?
I started when I was in my mid-40's; never picked up a fiddle before that. The first two years were pretty grim, I'm sure, but that can't be why every house on this end of the street sold during that time. Can it?
Don;t over analyze it; you can spend the rest of your life coming up with reasons not to do something. Heck with that.
Dear YWW
I find your question absolutely fascinating. I guess it depends on the degree of your desire. If you want it, why should anything get in the way of you doing it? Why worry about how long it will take? How long will it take for what? before you can get a sound out of it? how long before you can play something recognizable? how long until you figure something out on your own? until you play something for someone else? Until you've tuned your listening to the point that you really can tell if something's in tune or not? until you can play along with your favourite recording?
The thing is, if you want it, you'll go after it, and nothing should stop you. and you'll be so entranced with the fun of discovering every step and process that you won't notice how long it's taken you. It's no different than taking up golf or swing dancing or carpentry. If you want it, and you can get your hands on a fiddle, why on earth would you let ANYTHING stop you????
You have to enjoy the process, especially with fiddle where
it sounds like crap for a long, long time. I'm five years into it
now and I can't say yet that it sound 'good'. It's a matter of
percentages. In any given tune the number of times where the
rhythm or tuning or phrasing go off track has decreased a lot.
But a funny thing happens. You begin to discover more problems
that you did not notice before - slight hitches in the rhythm or
you know the cut you just played was in the wrong place or too
slow. Or you realize that something that sounded good last
month now sounds like a pile of mush because a new
recording highlighted it for you.
Yera,
Deep, deep subject. Been waiting and collecting thoughts before posting. This thread is magical. Full of encouragement. The most important rule for me is to encourage myself. Think positive. If I'm thinking to myself, sheesh this sounds like crap, then it does. Even though some of it will sound crap, there's gonna be things that will sound pleasing to you. Focus on that. Focus on the positive. Tell yourself , " I can do this. Hey that time I sounded better." A good teacher/mentor is a must, but your solo practice time is really what makes you a musician. With belief in yourself a good teacher/mentor and steady practice, you can and you will succeed. Your instrument will begin to feel more familiar to you as you spend time with it. Just like people, you must get to know your fiddle and see it as a friend. There will be days that you won't get along with your friend, so spend a little time resting and meet up later. Seems like that's what you're doing now. Meeting back up with an old friend that you haven't seen in some years. You two have only just been aquainted, but now the friendship is ready to grow. Set atainable goals so you don't feel overwhelmed. You are the only one who knows what your capable of. We can encourage you and give advice, but, now it's time to you take the bow by the frog and the fiddle by the neck and get down to buisness. GO GO GO and never look back!!!!!!!!!!!
Never too late to learn. I started palying in my late thirties. Most important things were something short term to aim for - gatting the tune before next week's class for example, and a supportive session. I'll never be Cathal McConnell, but I'm enjoying it.
Sorry to come in with a negative comment, but I think you have to bear in mind that some people are saying 1-3 hours a day rather than Jon Kirparsky's 15-30 minutes. Sure, a really focused 15-30 minutes a day. But I would have got nowhere with a flute embouchure without also just picking the thing up and playing through a few simple tunes for 1-30 minutes or so when I had the chance. I hear the something similar from a lass two doors away with a violin. I guess there is 30 minutes practice after school. But there are plenty of extra times when she seems to be carefuly bowing way at something simple or working over a few phrases.
And although the 10k hours article is about people who excel just think how long it took you to get the skills that you use to earn a living. If you are new to something, the skills you would a aspire to, to be able to walk into any vacancy that came up that a hundred people wanted. And if you are an expert how long it would take the new girl/boy to get to your level. Any job.
I would like to say in reply that this Board caters for all people but a lot of them are very experienced musicans who maybe have forgotten what it was like to crave to play something and not know how that is how I was all my life now 53 too shy and introverted to try anything I then had a life changing experience death of a very close friend this really made me rethink life and I decided I was going to do something SO I took up Tenor Banjo I know I will never be Barney or Cathal or whatever but I can now play some tunes badly but the pleasure it brings me is immeasurable that I can play a tune
Its really hard at the start because as an aduly you are aware how bad you are and think we will never be able for it but I can assure you if you have the desire bad enough you will play you really have to not care what others think and only listen to the experienced musicans who encourage I have no time for the egotists who show off at my expense
Co. Clare flute player Bill MacNamara was in his 40s, I think, when a friend took him along to hear the "Bothy Band" in Ennis around 1975. He went out and bought a flute the next day after hearing Matt Molloy, and within a few years was a teacher at the Willie Clancy week. He hadn't played music at all before going to that concert, I seem to remember. So the answer is "No".
I hate to be a wet blanket but have to say something here. I have taught fiddle to a good number of adult beginners over the years and have observed a lot of frustration and disappointment as it gradually dawns on them that they are never going to get to the standard they dreamed of - in some cases nowhere near it.
After a few years at this caper I would routinely give any potential adult student a reality check, which many of them took like a bucket of cold water over the head. Some got very indignant, but I figured that I was doing them a favour. If they still wanted to sign out from the lessons, then that was great, but at least they were forewarned.
So I think you need to have realistic expectations. What realistic would be in your case I can't say, but in general I think it is safe to say, don't have high expectations. If you eventually do better than your not-too-high expectations, you will feel a great sense of achievement, whereas if you fail to get close to your too-high expectations, you may feel like utter sheight.
One factor that I found to be a good indicator of whether an adult fiddle student would make decent progress was if they had had any experience of playing a musical instrument. Those that had, no matter how remote in time, did much better. So the fact that you tried in your 20s is definitely an encouraging point.
Another factor is general physical tension/suppleness. You need a fair bit of the latter to play the fiddle, and if your body is riddled with tension, this is going to make things very difficult for you. Don’t underestimate this point.
Sorry to sound like a killjoy, but if you are going to devote many hours to learning something, a sober assessment of the challenges involved has to be a good idea. And you are going to have to devote many, many hours to it if you want to get anywhere.
Sheer numbers of hours are not, unfortunately, enough. You need to have other factors on your side. So make sure the hours you put in are fun, and don’t dream in Technicolor. Aside from that – yes, go for it.
@lazyhound: “Teaching an adult is different to teaching a child - a main point being that the teacher can explain and discuss things with the adult at a level that wouldn't be possible with a child.”
The fact that children can learn without lots of explanations, and that adults can’t seem to, is one of the reasons that children do so much better!
I'm learning later in life because I enjoy the music and the sessions. I'm quite realistic about the standard I could reach, and how that is related to the effort I'm prepared to put in.
Lots of people play for a football team, realising they won't be picked for their country. Many of us are probably just the musical equivalent, enjoying taking part and totally realistic about where we fit into the big picure.
“By the way, the 10K hours of practice notion seems to suffer from a major selection bias problem. I wouldn't take it too seriously as a hypothesis, myself. It's pretty amateur work, at least as far as that article gives it.”
Yeah, it’s almost up there with the peculiar notion that we use only X% of our brain power (how do you even begin to imagine how to measure that?).
I think it's interesting that when one considers being an artist of some sort that the question of excellence arises. There seems to be a concern about where one might fit in ultimately in the grand ranking of things, 'will I be one of the greats?'
Jeeves, if you were a ski instructor, would you feel the need to caution adults with little or no previous experience that they probably will never get to the olympics? We seem as a culture to understand the notion of having fun participating in sports and games whatever the level of acheivement. You can have fun picking up darts, or swinging a golf club the first time you pick it up without the faintest thought of a world championship entering your head.
I wonder why music is any different. Why is the concept of exploring an instrument so fraught with concern for the future? How good will I eventually be? Why is that the question instead of 'hmmm, what kind of sound comes out if I do this?'
Why approach an instrument with fear, worry and concern when you could be encouraged instead to think of it as an interesting present, there for you to explore and discover for great fun and pleasure?
Thanks for that, Twisty.
I too have taught lots of "older" adults to play fiddle over the years, and based on that experience, I would never discourage anyone from starting out, at any age. I've seen too many people with no prior music-playing experience suddenly blossom (usually about 2 to 3 years in) on fiddle and make genuinely good, beautiful music. This includes students who were told by other teachers, "Give up. You're rhythm and intonation are bad and not improving."
For every 10 who blossom, there is usually one who continues to struggle. And the main difference I can see is that the struggler is convinced that, no matter how much they *want* to play well, they *can't.* This attitude alone seems to be what impedes them.
Poster on my studio wall: "Whether you think you can or can't, you're probably right."
All it takes is patience, persistence, and learning to listen well.
Well, if the Olympics was their stated aim, I certainly would caution them. Wouldn't you?
The highest aim of one of the students I was thinking about was to sit in with the regulars at the local session and hold his own. Becoming an Olympic ski champion would actually have been easier for him. Seriously.
The difference between music and darts, for example, seems pretty vast to me. Music is a performance art. We are moved by it, and we want to move others by it, even if only a very modest way.
When choosing an instructor. It's important to choose one who understands different teaching and learning styles. The fact that they may be a good player doesn't mean they're a good teacher. Stay away from instructors who focus on the negative. Of course negative things are part of the process, but a good teacher will not focus on the negative. A good teacher won't pick you apart for mistakes, or pour a bucket of cold water over your head. If the teacher is always saying no don't do this and no don't do that, it only tells you what not to do. That leaves your mistakes the focus. Make sure the teacher says here, do this and do that. You'll need positive tools to work with. When the negative does need to be exposed it should be done with the "PNP" process, meaning Positive Negative Positive. They say something like "Hey, I like how you do this....but when this happens.......it's causing a problem........So here, do this to fix it and it will all come together." A good teacher will leave you with a sense of accomplishment and tools to learn with. If your teacher is throwing a wet blanket on the process, go find somebody else. Nothing is more discouraging than a teacher who makes you feel like you can't do it. That's why I believe a good teacher needs to be a mentor also. A good teacher will make you feel like he/she really believes that you can do it. Wet blankets don't work as teaching tools. They only cause discouragement. Unfortunately some teachers do think they need to pour a bucket of cold water over your head. It says more about them than you. If the teacher really understands different teaching and learning styles, that should never happen.
Understanding realistic goals is certainly important JT. I think it's a touchy area too. I try to be as gentle as possible when trying to bring someone back to earth. If they've taken what I've said like a bucket of cold water though, I think it's me who needs the reality check.
I think the honest answer to the original question is Yes it is too late. if you were coming from another string instrument, it would'nt be a problem, but coming in cold, you'll allways be mediocre at best. A fiddle can break your heart. if you were to start with a mandolin maybe, where intonation is not an issue (if it's in tune!)you could transfer to fiddle more easily.
I'm an ambitious adult beginner (ambitious in the sense of wanting to play well; not in the sense of wanting huge gigs and six-figure record deals), and I've been frustrated more than a handful of times over the years. Much of the time my frustration derived from having unrealistic expectations - I can't play crisp triplets after a week! My sluggish fourth finger isn't immediately strong just because I willed it so! I can't do vibrato instantaneously! I don't sound brilliant!
AND YET - I can honestly say that it would have done me no good whatsoever to be told, either at the beginning of the learning process or at any point during, that I was never going to reach the standard I'd dreamed of. And, Jeeves, it takes no particular skill or courage on the part of a teacher to tell a student that. (*I* can tell anyone that, and I'm no expert.) What HAS helped me temper frustration and despair is having a teacher who understands the learning process and can break it down in such a way as to provide me with a sequence of specific, attainable, short-term goals by which I could better progress, as well as notice my progress. (I'm always going to fall short of "sound totally awesome"; I'm setting myself up for disappointment if that's my sole objective. But I can attain, "play clearer triplets", "develop smoother phrasing,", and such.) Hell, Kevin Burke didn't emerge from the womb playing like Kevin Burke. Reminding myself of THAT has done me more good than has giving up on sounding great.
"Jeeves, it takes no particular skill or courage on the part of a teacher to tell a student that."
Well thanks for the lessons all of you. Cut me some slack for Gawd's sake. I've never told a student that they will never do anything, or can't do anything, or shouldn't dream anything. I've always done my best to give students all the tools I can give them.
Come to think of it, the infamous bucket was only delivered twice. Once was to a woman of a certain age who wanted to sign up for group lessons. Gentle questioning revealed that she had an extremely busy professional life, a family, had no experience of playing a musical instrument, and thought she would have half an hour twice or three times a week to pratice. Maybe. She was telling all this to someone who had quite a bit of experience of teaching similar cases already.
So I didn't particularly want her as a student. Had this been in the days of thesession.org I could have sent her to all you positive thinkers of course.
The other time was when someone asked me, if I were to ask you for lessons, what would you tell me. I might have overstepped the mark on the occasion
Didn't mean to rip on ya JT. Just realized, I poured the Icy cold bucket on YOU! My bad. My bad. Better keep the mop handy. I've done it before and "gulp" probably will again. But that's why I must always remember I am student first. As teacher, my student comes first. I am student of my student. I learn from my student in order to become teacher and vice versa. A trade of energy in a holistic atmosphere. Student/teacher/mentor/peer process is a deep,deep subject. So full of variables. Magical.
"Cut me some slack for Gawd's sake. I've never told a student that they will never do anything, or can't do anything, or shouldn't dream anything."
...and I've never told you that you said that. "...never going to reach the standard [I'd] dreamed of", Jeeves, was something that you yourself said, in so many words; taking issue with what you actually said is fair play.
"Come to think of it, the infamous bucket was only delivered twice"
...thrice at least, if you include this thread, which was started by an adult with a modest goal: playing well enough to join in at sessions (which many of us who begun as adults can now do). The OP didn't say anything about wanting to sound like $YOURFAVOURITEFIDDLER within a year despite only having a few minutes here and there to practice - the OP specifically asked how long it would take to be able to play in sessions, and yet instead of providing answers, you saw fit to reply with a post about the importance of having realistic expectations and not dreaming in Technicolor. This despite the fact that the OP's goals were by no means lofty. Do you not see the problem here?
"Kevin Burke didn't emerge from the womb playing like Kevin Burke"
Sure, Kevin Burke always played like Kevin Burke. It's just that when he started, "playing like Kevin Burke" probably included lots of screechy scrapey noises and some notes not known to our western scales.
Over time, he improved.
So will any student who puts in serious and diligent effort.
Others might improve as well - I've seen the laziest students you can imagine get to be pretty good guitar players - but that's not common. Practice always works, if done right.
If you're planning on being alive this time next year, take up the fiddle, if you really want to play it. I promise you'll be a better fiddler next year than you are today if you put in a good effort and enjoy yourself while you're at it. I likewise promise that you won't if you don't.
Take your pick.
Yera,
Late thirties. Still plenty young. When in your late 50"s, you'll have 20 years under your belt. Music is a lifestyle. An incredible one. You will never regret attempting. You will regret not attempting. Don't miss the boat. you only get one chance to ride it. When you're 90, you'll not think back and say "sheesh, I wish I hadn't learned to play fiddle."
TDM: I spoke of the realization "gradually dawning on" the student that they wouldn't reach the standard they had dreamed of. I've seen it happen, several times.
I've seen the pain, the disappointment, the humiliation. (Not induced by me I can assure despite what you seem to want to believe.)
That was why I "saw fit" to reply as I did. I didn't answer the OP's question about how long to play in sessions fer fecksake because it would be completely absurd to give an answer to such a question to someone you have never met.
Sure, let the OP go for it - I told him as much in my first response. But let him be aware of the pitfalls. I don't see a problem.
The OP is only in his late 30s. I get folks starting fiddle in their 50s and 60s, and I wouldn't dream of discouraging them. So 38 or whatever is a spring chicken.
I also see prospective students who start out saying that their lives are crazy busy and they won't have much time to practice. I tell them that playing every day is important--it doesn't work well for most people to skip three days and then play for 2 hours on Sunday. But I also tell them that they can make significant progress on as little as 10 minutes a day, with some 30 minutes sessions on less hectic days, if they really want to learn. And it works. About two-thirds of these folks end up so passionate about playing that they soon make it a priority and find all kinds of time to practice and play in their once "busy" lives. Perhaps one of the better outcomes is that many students watch much less television--they quit being spectators and become full participants, not just in music but in life.
Over and over I've had an initial impression that a new student was going to lack the interest, motivation, abilities, etc. to stick with it or progress reasonably well. And that first impression is almost always proven wrong. All it takes is dwelling on whatever strengths they bring to the situation, and acknowledging and celebrating their weekly accomplishments. 52 weeks of attaining small goals adds up to genuine achievement and musicality.
The only ones I can think of is that a new learner on fiddle has to spend some significant time learning how to play in tune by using their ears, and how to deftly wield a stick with a hank of horsehair tied to it. Sure, for most that's more challenging than many other instruments, but hardly "pitfalls."
I tell people to expect it to take 3 years to become truly session competent on fiddle, starting from scratch. And I tell them that some people it's less time, and some it's more. Then I tell them that challenges are what make us better, so embrace "obstacles" as our friends. That's all the discouragement I offer.
ML: "Over and over I've had an initial impression that a new student was going to lack the interest, motivation, abilities, etc. to stick with it or progress reasonably well. And that first impression is almost always proven wrong."
I'm not surprised. There's no shortage of people telling adults that they'll never get far on the fiddle. The adults who decide to take the plunge regardless, are likely going to be the ones whose interest, motivation and abilities are sufficient to override all the discouragement they've gotten.
JT: "I've seen the pain, the disappointment, the humiliation. (Not induced by me I can assure despite what you seem to want to believe.)"
*sigh*
No, not induced by you; I didn't say it was. I don't want to believe it is. Seriously - where are you getting this? What I'm saying is that when someone comes to you in pain, disappointed, and humiliated, you have the choice of how to respond. I'm telling you, *from the experience of someone who's experienced pain, disappointment, and humiliation*, with regards to the fiddle and recently, that telling me that I'll never sound as great as I want would have the effect of compounding my pain, disappointment, and humiliation. Breaking down the process into smaller goals, on the other hand, has allowed me to move past them while improving on fiddle and enjoying the process.
I started tenor banjo last October and now play a couple of slow tunes at the session when there’s an obvious gap for me. At first I thought it was all about, was I good enough, was I fast enough I, did I know enough tunes and I also asked your question “how long will it take before you can join in”
All that has fallen away now. And its not what I expected, its much more. Now its fun fascinating frustrating and the progress is nt fast but its steady because of the enjoyment I think. And its a whole new world of things I thought I knew but didn't.
So I say go for it – it might become something better than you ever imagined
I thought Twisty made a great observation earlier in this thread saying that people's expectations with playing a musical instrument frequently differ from their expectations playing a sport. I have taught people to ride horses and never once had say, "You'll probably not make the US Equestrian Team." People are just interested in getting enough skills to safely control the horse and have fun. Being more reflexive about it, I could care less that I'm a mediocre rider, that I'm unlikely to rock climb above the lower grades, that while I'm a decent skiier there's not a f*cking chance in hell I'd come within 100 light years of the US ski team. But I have this compulsion to not be a mediocre musician and suffer moments of frustration that I don't seem to be "getting anywhere" with it. My riding has been on a plateau for years but for some reason it doesn't matter. The music does.
I imagine this is not just my experience, as this thread exists in the first place. No one in their 30s, 40s, or even 50s posts on a horse forum, "Is it too late for me to learn to ride?"
Is it too late to learn?
Is it too late to learn?
How're ye all doing?,
I always wanted to play the fiddle and had lessons when I was in my twenties but I was a bit of a dosser then and didn't get very far with it.
I am now in my late thirties and I still have a hankering to learn. Is it too late for me, do ye think? I don't want to be mediocre at it for the rest of my life, I would like to be good enough some day to join in, in the sessions... How long does it take to be good enough for that? I know it depends on how quick I learn and how much i practise etc, but roughly on average, how many years does it take?
I know it's a stupid question, but humour me, will ye...!!!
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Yera wisht wilya
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Im in my mid - late 40s and started playing the banjo when I turned 40, started going to sessions a few yrs later and am still going. Its NEVER too late to learn. Just think, if you had started playing 10 yrs ago, what could be like now?
If you start playing now, what could you be like in 10 yrs time?
You will never know if you dont try!
On a side issue, a personal gripe of mine is people saying to me "oh Id LOVE to play an (insert instrument of choice here) but Im not musical enough/dont have time/dont know where to start/some other excuse).
If you really want to play, you can, simple as that!
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by BanjoBongo
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Well... I was 53 when I started to learn fiddle and playing in sessions within a year. I had played guitar and mandolin before that but the fiddle is so different. The left hand fingering is the same as mandolin but really the fiddle is all about bowing technique so the mandolin didn't help all that much. Anyway Its NEVER too late to learn. Late 30's ? you're still a kid. Find a teacher and get stuck in you wont regret it.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Bernie
Re: Is it too late to learn?
i'd only been playin for a year when i started in sessions. people give you a lot of help there!
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by mandolinist
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Someone I know who's tried out practically every instrument in his time (he's basically a flute player) started practising the fiddle seriously at I think fifty-ish, if not after. He's coming on OK with the jigs and if he's not quite there with the reels, he's on the way. But fiddle takes time. You'll have to put aside the idea of sounding like Kevin Burke / Frankie Gavin / Tommy Peoples etc. the year after next, unless that is you look down after a tune and see them sitting at your feet imploring tips, which is improbable...
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Is it too late to learn?
The key to it is time spent practicing. To not be mediocre will take at least couple hours a day.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by shanty
Re: Is it too late to learn?
But also remember...there's a lot of mediocre musicians enjoying sessions! Nothing wrong with that. Not eveyone will be Kevin Burke.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by shanty
Re: Is it too late to learn?
It's too late when your dead...
And anyway a fundamental human right is the right to have an interest that you enjoy no matter how crap you are at it. Ever played 5-a-sides with your mates? ever give a second thought to the fact that you (presumably) aren't Pele?
Of course inflicting yourself on other people requires a bit more tact and some experience/facility. But lack of skill is no debarment from something that gives you pleasure and doesn't impinge on others.
- chris
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Mate of mine who only played guitar taught himself the mandolin in his late 30s and moved on to the fiddle in his mid-40s. The mandolin is his main session instrument but he's getting there with the fiddle. I didn't know any tunes and had never played in front of people until I reached 42. Picking things up may come a bit more slowly as the years advance but the compensation is that you're far more likely to see the whole thing as a load of fun than some young buck who's obsessed with playing at the speed of light and outdoing everyone else.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Forget the fiddle anyway, it's no fun and they're all stuck up. Take up tenor banjo. Play it loud and proud! In tune or out! Make your mark I say!
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by shanty
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Never to late to learn and please remember that you continue to learn forever.
" I don't want to be mediocre at it for the rest of my life"
Everybody's view of mediocrity differs. I think the important thing is to continue to improve and have the desire to do so rather than just "rest on your laurels".
Sometimes, this is easier said than done if other commitments get in the way or if you go off on a tangent...as often happens.
"good enough some day to join in, in the sessions"
That doesn't take too long at all, actually. However, you might not make that much of a contribution for a while and it won't be possible to take part in every session. Even the more experienced players will sometimes feel that it's appropriate to "sit out" in certain situations.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Johnny Jay
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Dear Y W W
Your post has struck a chord with me. I started fiddle in my mid-forties having played for about a year when I was 11. It sounds like you've probably got past the most difficult part already.Finding how to make a sound with the bow on the string. I think the most important factor is the amount of time you are prepared to spend playing. The progress you make really is all down to the amount of hours you put in. But if you find you love it it will not seem like work. It will not be a chore but a joy.
Now five years in I wish I had started years earlier. It is never too late and don't let anyone tell you so. And don't discourage yourself by comparing yourself with other players (full respect to Nicholas but I don't even think you should think like that). You won't know how good you could be until you start. And don't be discouraged if you're plugging away doing the right thing and feel like you're not getting anywhere. Progress can be uneven but putting in the playing hours will always pay off eventually. I think you are in a very good place now and I envy you a bit. The very best of luck to you
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by sashiko calico
Re: Is it too late to learn?
There are good reasons to suppose that, as an adult, learning new motor and mental skills - as you would with most musical instruments - helps the brain to keep functioning better as you get older. It's not unusual in amateur musical groups (sessions, bands, orchestras etc) to find active musicians in their 70s, 80s and even 90s. Professional orchestras are different though - most players must retire when they reach 60 or 65.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Do you want to learn, or just wish you could play?
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by gam
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I'll make this further, and important, point. An adult beginner needs the guidance of an experienced teacher as soon as possible. Teaching an adult is different to teaching a child - a main point being that the teacher can explain and discuss things with the adult at a level that wouldn't be possible with a child.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Is it too late to learn?
It takes 10,000 hours of practice to be world class - how good do you want to be? The longer you wait the longer it'll take. Just play and have fun.
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391794/index.htm
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by jimtowat
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Count on anywhere between 3 and 6 years before you begin to sound reasonably ok (a figure which probably varies hugely, but after 4 years flute, some good players have told me that I should learn some more tunes - as opposed to try to improve the tunes I already know). A mate of mine started fiddle at the same time and he is finally getting there as well.
Also, my playing took off quicker than his, but he's been catching up an impressive amount this past year.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Tirno
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Late 50's, coming up to 3 years on flute and Tirno's timing seems about right. A long way to go but I feeling confident that it will get far enough for it to have been worth the effort. I rarely manage shanty's 2 hours a day but that's the sort of time I'm needing. The "even if you can only manage 20 minutes a day" business just won't do it for me at my age. Not sure it ever would have done.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by David50
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Never! To see the pleasure that some folks get from a little music is proof enough of that. The greater joy is that with age we have fewer expectations and can generally, if not always, let go and just have fun with it. It is better to come to this tradition relaxed than to press too hard, as if preparing for exams or a competition... The greater joy is finding the right teacher for your needs who will inspire you and boost your confidence, while direction you to awareness of every step of progress you make, however small, while raising your appreciation for the music, for the tradition.
Remember not to practice tension or frustration. When you feel that starting to slip in, slow down, and if necessary put the instrument away, maybe go for a walk. Never play faster than you can and still hold a recognizeable melody and a decent tempo...
Best of luck...
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by ceolachan
~ and a 'steady' tempo...
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Lazyhound is right, you absolutely must get a teacher (and it is important to get one who teaches Irish music, not any old violin teacher) or you will struggle to get the bowing right.
And, no, it's not too late.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by DaveL35
Re: Is it too late to learn?
It really depends what is more important to you, the journey or the point of arrival (getting to be better than mediocre and able to play out with others). From the way that you pose your question it sounds like the latter. If that's the case then in my view you are going to need to fast-track your development by spending a fair bit of your practice time on the boring stuff that builds raw technique - scales, arpeggios, bowing studies etc - in parallel with learning to play tunes in an Irish style. Either way, finding a good teacher is paramount.
I speak as someone who, many years ago, taught himself to play the fiddle and made good initial progress but then remained on the wrong side of mediocrity no matter how much I practised. It took four years of lessons to get my technique straightened out and get me progressing again.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Is it too late to learn?
@johndsamuels, I've been down that road too.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Is it too late to learn?
nope, I picked it up in october 2009 and since then I haven't looked back ... I was very very very - utterly - lucky to find an excellent teacher (A "classical" violin-player who teaches in a music school and enjoys himself even more then I am in fiddling them fiddle tunes and old-timey tunes I keep harassing him with - he just gets exasperated with my total lack of "system-playing" he calls it - every other tune he exclaims : "but where's the system in that?" or "why do I bother to notate anything you just won't stick to the notation", I once had him rolling on the floor when we played "Jordan is a hard road to travel" and he said "you don't play the A that's written down here", to which I replied "yeah well, you know, muscicologist are still debating on wether that should be an A or a G"...
Just enjoy the making of music and spread that joy around !
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Patrick Dirickx
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Of course it's never too late. Too late for what? For you to do something you've always wanted to and to have fun doing it? Go on with ya! Tear into it!
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is it too late to learn?
If you're in your late thirties and you feel that your movement and reflexes are not remarkably worse than they were ten years earlier, then your ability to learn the fiddle is probably not remarkably diminished either. I think the main reason middle-aged people may not learn an instrument as well as a young person is not diminished ability, but too many other distractions. Make a big enough space for it in your life and you’ll do fine.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Never - Just go for it. If there is an instrument you're interested in and you feel a passion for it, then go ahead. I got a set of uilleann .pipes when I was 32, got nowhere, put them away, then 12 years later started to practice regularly and learnt to tune them. Finally got to my first Miltown piping class in 96', and haven't looked back since, be prepared to practice though. Started playing the flute about 6 years ago - great fun. All the best
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Steamwilkes
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Wait a minute - do you live in a flat? Don't practice after 10 pm then, otherwise you should be alright
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Steamwilkes
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I took up the box in my mid 40's and the fiddle in mid 50's. I take a weekly fiddle lesson with a great teacher. I'm really enjoying the challenge and believe me, it is a challenge. After two years of fiddling, I don't feel ready for a session yet but I'm getting close. Practice and lots of it is the key. Go for it!
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by boxielady
Re: Is it too late to learn?
What? No posts from llig leachim yet? The thread is not yet complete.
Go for it, my man. I would take up fiddle if I had the time to dedicate to it. Just be prepared for it to take years before you actually feel decent about your playing, but it's a load of fun. Careful when you start playing at sessions, though, it is addictive.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I'm not learning fiddle, but I decided to try to learn uilleann pipes -- at 53. I've been going about 15 months now, and I just have fun. I'll never be a pro, but I've a couple friends who play fiddle and another couple who play guitar, and I'm at the point now where I can get together with them and play and have fun -- and that's what it's all about.
Just have fun. Michael Cooney told me "enjoy the journey." Don't worry about where you're going, just go and have fun as you do.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Marc C
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Do you want to be world class, make one and all think you were born in a bothy deep in the geaeltacht? Might be too late for that. But that still leaves a lot of room to be pretty decent and have a lot of fun. Start now with a teacher, practice 1-3 hours a day and you’ll be pretty good in a few years. But how good will you be in a few years if you never start?
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by fidkid
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Quote:
The greatest amount of wasted time is the time not getting started'
Dawson Trotman
Just do it and have fun! Best of luck to you.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Fiddlephilia
Re: Is it too late to learn?
"What? No posts from llig leachim yet? The thread is not yet complete."
Suspended again. It's such a shame that one of the most insightful members here feels he has to post in such a vitriolic manner.
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I started learning fiddle at 28. Best thing I've ever done with myself. Ironically, the reason I didn't start ten years earlier was because I thought I was too old. Still kicking myself over that.
)
I'm fortunate enough to be in a community with plenty of adult beginners. My teacher, an excellent player, started as an adult - I wish he'd told me that when I'd begun, as it would have saved me plenty of grief. Before I'd started, I'd heard from any number of folks that adults could never expect to get very far on the instrument - our joints aren't as flexible, our brains aren't as plastic, etc. But I know that as a child I didn't have the patience I do now, and that helps a lot. (I played piano as a kid, and didn't get very far - in part, I'm sure, because I wasn't patient enough to stick with something I wasn't good at immediately.) Years of listening to the music have also given me insight that has allowed me, I'm sure, to progress more quickly than folks who are brand new to both the instrument and the genre. As far as I can tell, though, there's one huge disadvantage to starting as an adult: adult beginners, unlike child beginners, KNOW that they sound like cr@p. Don't let yourself get too demoralized at the beginning (and even a few years in), and you'll be fine.
Regarding how long it takes to be able to play in sessions - my teacher told me that his goal for his students was to have them able to play slow tunes within 6 months. I practiced like a maniac, and was able to play airs and a few slides within 3 or so, jigs a few months later, and then it took me a good year or so after that before I could play any reels at speed. YMMV. (I cringe to remember those days - I know I made a huge mess of the tunes during those early days...er, years. Mine was a very open session; I visited a more advanced session a year in and was way over my head. How long it will take you to play in sessions depends at least as much on the generosity of your session mates as it does on anything else
# Posted on February 4th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it too late to learn?
"Do you want to learn, or just wish you could play? "
Gam - exactly the right question. I've never put it so bluntly, at least not with the student in the room, but that's the basis on which I've always accepted or rejected students.
If the goal is to be something - to be a great fiddler, for example - you won't enjoy what it takes to get there and you'll probably find that once you get there it's not worth it, because you don't actually want to play the fiddle. You just want to be a fiddler. If the goal is to do something - to play the fiddle - then you'll enjoy every step of learning it, and once you get there, you'll find that there's plenty more to enjoy.
It's a subtle distinction, but worth making in any endeavor of this sort.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is it too late to learn?
By the way, the 10K hours of practice notion seems to suffer from a major selection bias problem. I wouldn't take it too seriously as a hypothesis, myself. It's pretty amateur work, at least as far as that article gives it.
Among other problems, it suggests that all practice is interchangeable; any teacher knows that this is not so. It also suggests that practice is simply additive, which it isn't. Efficient practice, in the first two years of study, is a matter of 15-30 minutes a day, no more. It also ignores the erosion effect, even though the article quotes Horowitz summarizing it precisely. So taking the idea literally, a player who played for eight hours every Sunday and put the fiddle in the case until the next Sunday would be more than twice as good after a fixed time as a player who played for half an hour every day. I don't think I'm out of line in saying that's ridiculous.
I don't want to kick off some sort of holy war on the topic, but I just don't think the idea has much to recommend it.
(I also don't think much of the article's application of the so-called research to business, but that's a kettle of fish of a different color - MBA types are always looking for real science to make their nonsense look good, this doesn't reflect on real science at all)
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Go for it, never too late!
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Do you love music? And how else would you spend your time? It can be tough if you have young kids; time is always short, and it can be hard to fit woodshed time in. But the alternative is never to be anything but a spectator. How sad is that?
I want to play like Liz Carroll, but that is never going to happen. So what? What has happened is that my life is so much richer because I can make my own music, play with friends, play with complete strangers, look forward to going home at night and cracking open the fiddle case. I don't think I'll be on my deathbed thinking "gee, I wish I hadn't wasted all that time playing my fiddle; could have been scrubbing toilets/watching bad TV/going to the mall/whatever." You think?
I started when I was in my mid-40's; never picked up a fiddle before that. The first two years were pretty grim, I'm sure, but that can't be why every house on this end of the street sold during that time. Can it?
Don;t over analyze it; you can spend the rest of your life coming up with reasons not to do something. Heck with that.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Dear YWW
I find your question absolutely fascinating. I guess it depends on the degree of your desire. If you want it, why should anything get in the way of you doing it? Why worry about how long it will take? How long will it take for what? before you can get a sound out of it? how long before you can play something recognizable? how long until you figure something out on your own? until you play something for someone else? Until you've tuned your listening to the point that you really can tell if something's in tune or not? until you can play along with your favourite recording?
The thing is, if you want it, you'll go after it, and nothing should stop you. and you'll be so entranced with the fun of discovering every step and process that you won't notice how long it's taken you. It's no different than taking up golf or swing dancing or carpentry. If you want it, and you can get your hands on a fiddle, why on earth would you let ANYTHING stop you????
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Twisty
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Start immediately.
You need three things; effort, desire, and instruction.
The Lionel Electric Train Company has a great slogan..."It's never too late to have a happy childhood."
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Is it too late to learn?
You have to enjoy the process, especially with fiddle where
it sounds like crap for a long, long time. I'm five years into it
now and I can't say yet that it sound 'good'. It's a matter of
percentages. In any given tune the number of times where the
rhythm or tuning or phrasing go off track has decreased a lot.
But a funny thing happens. You begin to discover more problems
that you did not notice before - slight hitches in the rhythm or
you know the cut you just played was in the wrong place or too
slow. Or you realize that something that sounded good last
month now sounds like a pile of mush because a new
recording highlighted it for you.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Hup
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Yera,
Deep, deep subject. Been waiting and collecting thoughts before posting. This thread is magical. Full of encouragement. The most important rule for me is to encourage myself. Think positive. If I'm thinking to myself, sheesh this sounds like crap, then it does. Even though some of it will sound crap, there's gonna be things that will sound pleasing to you. Focus on that. Focus on the positive. Tell yourself , " I can do this. Hey that time I sounded better." A good teacher/mentor is a must, but your solo practice time is really what makes you a musician. With belief in yourself a good teacher/mentor and steady practice, you can and you will succeed. Your instrument will begin to feel more familiar to you as you spend time with it. Just like people, you must get to know your fiddle and see it as a friend. There will be days that you won't get along with your friend, so spend a little time resting and meet up later. Seems like that's what you're doing now. Meeting back up with an old friend that you haven't seen in some years. You two have only just been aquainted, but now the friendship is ready to grow. Set atainable goals so you don't feel overwhelmed. You are the only one who knows what your capable of. We can encourage you and give advice, but, now it's time to you take the bow by the frog and the fiddle by the neck and get down to buisness. GO GO GO and never look back!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Never too late to learn. I started palying in my late thirties. Most important things were something short term to aim for - gatting the tune before next week's class for example, and a supportive session. I'll never be Cathal McConnell, but I'm enjoying it.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Sorry to come in with a negative comment, but I think you have to bear in mind that some people are saying 1-3 hours a day rather than Jon Kirparsky's 15-30 minutes. Sure, a really focused 15-30 minutes a day. But I would have got nowhere with a flute embouchure without also just picking the thing up and playing through a few simple tunes for 1-30 minutes or so when I had the chance. I hear the something similar from a lass two doors away with a violin. I guess there is 30 minutes practice after school. But there are plenty of extra times when she seems to be carefuly bowing way at something simple or working over a few phrases.
And although the 10k hours article is about people who excel just think how long it took you to get the skills that you use to earn a living. If you are new to something, the skills you would a aspire to, to be able to walk into any vacancy that came up that a hundred people wanted. And if you are an expert how long it would take the new girl/boy to get to your level. Any job.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by David50
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I would like to say in reply that this Board caters for all people but a lot of them are very experienced musicans who maybe have forgotten what it was like to crave to play something and not know how that is how I was all my life now 53 too shy and introverted to try anything I then had a life changing experience death of a very close friend this really made me rethink life and I decided I was going to do something SO I took up Tenor Banjo I know I will never be Barney or Cathal or whatever but I can now play some tunes badly but the pleasure it brings me is immeasurable that I can play a tune
Its really hard at the start because as an aduly you are aware how bad you are and think we will never be able for it but I can assure you if you have the desire bad enough you will play you really have to not care what others think and only listen to the experienced musicans who encourage I have no time for the egotists who show off at my expense
SO no its never too late to learn
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by glengarslasher
Re: Is it too late to learn?
tear into it boy!
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Luidín
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Co. Clare flute player Bill MacNamara was in his 40s, I think, when a friend took him along to hear the "Bothy Band" in Ennis around 1975. He went out and bought a flute the next day after hearing Matt Molloy, and within a few years was a teacher at the Willie Clancy week. He hadn't played music at all before going to that concert, I seem to remember. So the answer is "No".
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Kenny
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I hate to be a wet blanket but have to say something here. I have taught fiddle to a good number of adult beginners over the years and have observed a lot of frustration and disappointment as it gradually dawns on them that they are never going to get to the standard they dreamed of - in some cases nowhere near it.
After a few years at this caper I would routinely give any potential adult student a reality check, which many of them took like a bucket of cold water over the head. Some got very indignant, but I figured that I was doing them a favour. If they still wanted to sign out from the lessons, then that was great, but at least they were forewarned.
So I think you need to have realistic expectations. What realistic would be in your case I can't say, but in general I think it is safe to say, don't have high expectations. If you eventually do better than your not-too-high expectations, you will feel a great sense of achievement, whereas if you fail to get close to your too-high expectations, you may feel like utter sheight.
One factor that I found to be a good indicator of whether an adult fiddle student would make decent progress was if they had had any experience of playing a musical instrument. Those that had, no matter how remote in time, did much better. So the fact that you tried in your 20s is definitely an encouraging point.
Another factor is general physical tension/suppleness. You need a fair bit of the latter to play the fiddle, and if your body is riddled with tension, this is going to make things very difficult for you. Don’t underestimate this point.
Sorry to sound like a killjoy, but if you are going to devote many hours to learning something, a sober assessment of the challenges involved has to be a good idea. And you are going to have to devote many, many hours to it if you want to get anywhere.
Sheer numbers of hours are not, unfortunately, enough. You need to have other factors on your side. So make sure the hours you put in are fun, and don’t dream in Technicolor. Aside from that – yes, go for it.
@lazyhound: “Teaching an adult is different to teaching a child - a main point being that the teacher can explain and discuss things with the adult at a level that wouldn't be possible with a child.”
The fact that children can learn without lots of explanations, and that adults can’t seem to, is one of the reasons that children do so much better!
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I'm learning later in life because I enjoy the music and the sessions. I'm quite realistic about the standard I could reach, and how that is related to the effort I'm prepared to put in.
Lots of people play for a football team, realising they won't be picked for their country. Many of us are probably just the musical equivalent, enjoying taking part and totally realistic about where we fit into the big picure.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: Is it too late to learn?
“By the way, the 10K hours of practice notion seems to suffer from a major selection bias problem. I wouldn't take it too seriously as a hypothesis, myself. It's pretty amateur work, at least as far as that article gives it.”
Yeah, it’s almost up there with the peculiar notion that we use only X% of our brain power (how do you even begin to imagine how to measure that?).
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I think it's interesting that when one considers being an artist of some sort that the question of excellence arises. There seems to be a concern about where one might fit in ultimately in the grand ranking of things, 'will I be one of the greats?'
Jeeves, if you were a ski instructor, would you feel the need to caution adults with little or no previous experience that they probably will never get to the olympics? We seem as a culture to understand the notion of having fun participating in sports and games whatever the level of acheivement. You can have fun picking up darts, or swinging a golf club the first time you pick it up without the faintest thought of a world championship entering your head.
I wonder why music is any different. Why is the concept of exploring an instrument so fraught with concern for the future? How good will I eventually be? Why is that the question instead of 'hmmm, what kind of sound comes out if I do this?'
Why approach an instrument with fear, worry and concern when you could be encouraged instead to think of it as an interesting present, there for you to explore and discover for great fun and pleasure?
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Twisty
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Thanks for that, Twisty.
I too have taught lots of "older" adults to play fiddle over the years, and based on that experience, I would never discourage anyone from starting out, at any age. I've seen too many people with no prior music-playing experience suddenly blossom (usually about 2 to 3 years in) on fiddle and make genuinely good, beautiful music. This includes students who were told by other teachers, "Give up. You're rhythm and intonation are bad and not improving."
For every 10 who blossom, there is usually one who continues to struggle. And the main difference I can see is that the struggler is convinced that, no matter how much they *want* to play well, they *can't.* This attitude alone seems to be what impedes them.
Poster on my studio wall: "Whether you think you can or can't, you're probably right."
All it takes is patience, persistence, and learning to listen well.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Well, if the Olympics was their stated aim, I certainly would caution them. Wouldn't you?
The highest aim of one of the students I was thinking about was to sit in with the regulars at the local session and hold his own. Becoming an Olympic ski champion would actually have been easier for him. Seriously.
The difference between music and darts, for example, seems pretty vast to me. Music is a performance art. We are moved by it, and we want to move others by it, even if only a very modest way.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Is it too late to learn?
When choosing an instructor. It's important to choose one who understands different teaching and learning styles. The fact that they may be a good player doesn't mean they're a good teacher. Stay away from instructors who focus on the negative. Of course negative things are part of the process, but a good teacher will not focus on the negative. A good teacher won't pick you apart for mistakes, or pour a bucket of cold water over your head. If the teacher is always saying no don't do this and no don't do that, it only tells you what not to do. That leaves your mistakes the focus. Make sure the teacher says here, do this and do that. You'll need positive tools to work with. When the negative does need to be exposed it should be done with the "PNP" process, meaning Positive Negative Positive. They say something like "Hey, I like how you do this....but when this happens.......it's causing a problem........So here, do this to fix it and it will all come together." A good teacher will leave you with a sense of accomplishment and tools to learn with. If your teacher is throwing a wet blanket on the process, go find somebody else. Nothing is more discouraging than a teacher who makes you feel like you can't do it. That's why I believe a good teacher needs to be a mentor also. A good teacher will make you feel like he/she really believes that you can do it. Wet blankets don't work as teaching tools. They only cause discouragement. Unfortunately some teachers do think they need to pour a bucket of cold water over your head. It says more about them than you. If the teacher really understands different teaching and learning styles, that should never happen.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Yes, unrealistic expectations should be tempered.
Will you set the world on fire with your fiddle playing and have the fairies fall at your feet in worship? No.
Will you be able to crank out a few tunes and have a good time? If you want to!
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is it too late to learn?
The bucket of cold water was nothing more than a reality check before they started, BP. Obviously I don't use cold water when t teach.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Understanding realistic goals is certainly important JT. I think it's a touchy area too. I try to be as gentle as possible when trying to bring someone back to earth. If they've taken what I've said like a bucket of cold water though, I think it's me who needs the reality check.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Well, thank god for that. [squelches out of the room]
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Is it too late to learn?
* returns with mop *
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I think the honest answer to the original question is Yes it is too late. if you were coming from another string instrument, it would'nt be a problem, but coming in cold, you'll allways be mediocre at best. A fiddle can break your heart. if you were to start with a mandolin maybe, where intonation is not an issue (if it's in tune!)you could transfer to fiddle more easily.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Backer
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Hey bring that mop over here, I spilt me pint.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I'm an ambitious adult beginner (ambitious in the sense of wanting to play well; not in the sense of wanting huge gigs and six-figure record deals), and I've been frustrated more than a handful of times over the years. Much of the time my frustration derived from having unrealistic expectations - I can't play crisp triplets after a week! My sluggish fourth finger isn't immediately strong just because I willed it so! I can't do vibrato instantaneously! I don't sound brilliant!
AND YET - I can honestly say that it would have done me no good whatsoever to be told, either at the beginning of the learning process or at any point during, that I was never going to reach the standard I'd dreamed of. And, Jeeves, it takes no particular skill or courage on the part of a teacher to tell a student that. (*I* can tell anyone that, and I'm no expert.) What HAS helped me temper frustration and despair is having a teacher who understands the learning process and can break it down in such a way as to provide me with a sequence of specific, attainable, short-term goals by which I could better progress, as well as notice my progress. (I'm always going to fall short of "sound totally awesome"; I'm setting myself up for disappointment if that's my sole objective. But I can attain, "play clearer triplets", "develop smoother phrasing,", and such.) Hell, Kevin Burke didn't emerge from the womb playing like Kevin Burke. Reminding myself of THAT has done me more good than has giving up on sounding great.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it too late to learn?
"Jeeves, it takes no particular skill or courage on the part of a teacher to tell a student that."
Well thanks for the lessons all of you. Cut me some slack for Gawd's sake. I've never told a student that they will never do anything, or can't do anything, or shouldn't dream anything. I've always done my best to give students all the tools I can give them.
Come to think of it, the infamous bucket was only delivered twice. Once was to a woman of a certain age who wanted to sign up for group lessons. Gentle questioning revealed that she had an extremely busy professional life, a family, had no experience of playing a musical instrument, and thought she would have half an hour twice or three times a week to pratice. Maybe. She was telling all this to someone who had quite a bit of experience of teaching similar cases already.
So I didn't particularly want her as a student. Had this been in the days of thesession.org I could have sent her to all you positive thinkers of course.
The other time was when someone asked me, if I were to ask you for lessons, what would you tell me. I might have overstepped the mark on the occasion
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Didn't mean to rip on ya JT. Just realized, I poured the Icy cold bucket on YOU! My bad. My bad. Better keep the mop handy. I've done it before and "gulp" probably will again. But that's why I must always remember I am student first. As teacher, my student comes first. I am student of my student. I learn from my student in order to become teacher and vice versa. A trade of energy in a holistic atmosphere. Student/teacher/mentor/peer process is a deep,deep subject. So full of variables. Magical.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Is it too late to learn?
"Cut me some slack for Gawd's sake. I've never told a student that they will never do anything, or can't do anything, or shouldn't dream anything."
...and I've never told you that you said that. "...never going to reach the standard [I'd] dreamed of", Jeeves, was something that you yourself said, in so many words; taking issue with what you actually said is fair play.
"Come to think of it, the infamous bucket was only delivered twice"
...thrice at least, if you include this thread, which was started by an adult with a modest goal: playing well enough to join in at sessions (which many of us who begun as adults can now do). The OP didn't say anything about wanting to sound like $YOURFAVOURITEFIDDLER within a year despite only having a few minutes here and there to practice - the OP specifically asked how long it would take to be able to play in sessions, and yet instead of providing answers, you saw fit to reply with a post about the importance of having realistic expectations and not dreaming in Technicolor. This despite the fact that the OP's goals were by no means lofty. Do you not see the problem here?
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it too late to learn?
"Kevin Burke didn't emerge from the womb playing like Kevin Burke"
Sure, Kevin Burke always played like Kevin Burke. It's just that when he started, "playing like Kevin Burke" probably included lots of screechy scrapey noises and some notes not known to our western scales.
Over time, he improved.
So will any student who puts in serious and diligent effort.
Others might improve as well - I've seen the laziest students you can imagine get to be pretty good guitar players - but that's not common. Practice always works, if done right.
If you're planning on being alive this time next year, take up the fiddle, if you really want to play it. I promise you'll be a better fiddler next year than you are today if you put in a good effort and enjoy yourself while you're at it. I likewise promise that you won't if you don't.
Take your pick.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Yera,
Late thirties. Still plenty young. When in your late 50"s, you'll have 20 years under your belt. Music is a lifestyle. An incredible one. You will never regret attempting. You will regret not attempting. Don't miss the boat. you only get one chance to ride it. When you're 90, you'll not think back and say "sheesh, I wish I hadn't learned to play fiddle."
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Is it too late to learn?
TDM: I spoke of the realization "gradually dawning on" the student that they wouldn't reach the standard they had dreamed of. I've seen it happen, several times.
I've seen the pain, the disappointment, the humiliation. (Not induced by me I can assure despite what you seem to want to believe.)
That was why I "saw fit" to reply as I did. I didn't answer the OP's question about how long to play in sessions fer fecksake because it would be completely absurd to give an answer to such a question to someone you have never met.
Sure, let the OP go for it - I told him as much in my first response. But let him be aware of the pitfalls. I don't see a problem.
I am now squelching out of this room.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Is it too late to learn?
The OP is only in his late 30s. I get folks starting fiddle in their 50s and 60s, and I wouldn't dream of discouraging them. So 38 or whatever is a spring chicken.
I also see prospective students who start out saying that their lives are crazy busy and they won't have much time to practice. I tell them that playing every day is important--it doesn't work well for most people to skip three days and then play for 2 hours on Sunday. But I also tell them that they can make significant progress on as little as 10 minutes a day, with some 30 minutes sessions on less hectic days, if they really want to learn. And it works. About two-thirds of these folks end up so passionate about playing that they soon make it a priority and find all kinds of time to practice and play in their once "busy" lives. Perhaps one of the better outcomes is that many students watch much less television--they quit being spectators and become full participants, not just in music but in life.
Over and over I've had an initial impression that a new student was going to lack the interest, motivation, abilities, etc. to stick with it or progress reasonably well. And that first impression is almost always proven wrong. All it takes is dwelling on whatever strengths they bring to the situation, and acknowledging and celebrating their weekly accomplishments. 52 weeks of attaining small goals adds up to genuine achievement and musicality.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Is it too late to learn?
"...the pitfalls."
What exactly are those?
The only ones I can think of is that a new learner on fiddle has to spend some significant time learning how to play in tune by using their ears, and how to deftly wield a stick with a hank of horsehair tied to it. Sure, for most that's more challenging than many other instruments, but hardly "pitfalls."
I tell people to expect it to take 3 years to become truly session competent on fiddle, starting from scratch. And I tell them that some people it's less time, and some it's more. Then I tell them that challenges are what make us better, so embrace "obstacles" as our friends. That's all the discouragement I offer.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Is it too late to learn?
ML: "Over and over I've had an initial impression that a new student was going to lack the interest, motivation, abilities, etc. to stick with it or progress reasonably well. And that first impression is almost always proven wrong."
I'm not surprised. There's no shortage of people telling adults that they'll never get far on the fiddle. The adults who decide to take the plunge regardless, are likely going to be the ones whose interest, motivation and abilities are sufficient to override all the discouragement they've gotten.
JT: "I've seen the pain, the disappointment, the humiliation. (Not induced by me I can assure despite what you seem to want to believe.)"
*sigh*
No, not induced by you; I didn't say it was. I don't want to believe it is. Seriously - where are you getting this? What I'm saying is that when someone comes to you in pain, disappointed, and humiliated, you have the choice of how to respond. I'm telling you, *from the experience of someone who's experienced pain, disappointment, and humiliation*, with regards to the fiddle and recently, that telling me that I'll never sound as great as I want would have the effect of compounding my pain, disappointment, and humiliation. Breaking down the process into smaller goals, on the other hand, has allowed me to move past them while improving on fiddle and enjoying the process.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it too late to learn?
Yep, TDM< that's why I never share my initial impressions. And mind myself that they not become "expectations."
Encouragement is a powerful thing.
# Posted on February 5th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I started tenor banjo last October and now play a couple of slow tunes at the session when there’s an obvious gap for me. At first I thought it was all about, was I good enough, was I fast enough I, did I know enough tunes and I also asked your question “how long will it take before you can join in”
All that has fallen away now. And its not what I expected, its much more. Now its fun fascinating frustrating and the progress is nt fast but its steady because of the enjoyment I think. And its a whole new world of things I thought I knew but didn't.
So I say go for it – it might become something better than you ever imagined
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: Is it too late to learn?
I thought Twisty made a great observation earlier in this thread saying that people's expectations with playing a musical instrument frequently differ from their expectations playing a sport. I have taught people to ride horses and never once had say, "You'll probably not make the US Equestrian Team." People are just interested in getting enough skills to safely control the horse and have fun. Being more reflexive about it, I could care less that I'm a mediocre rider, that I'm unlikely to rock climb above the lower grades, that while I'm a decent skiier there's not a f*cking chance in hell I'd come within 100 light years of the US ski team. But I have this compulsion to not be a mediocre musician and suffer moments of frustration that I don't seem to be "getting anywhere" with it. My riding has been on a plateau for years but for some reason it doesn't matter. The music does.
I imagine this is not just my experience, as this thread exists in the first place. No one in their 30s, 40s, or even 50s posts on a horse forum, "Is it too late for me to learn to ride?"
# Posted on February 6th 2010 by DrSilverSpear