I have been learning concert flute for the past year or two. I am not naturally talented but am willing to work hard to learn. I am going to take the plunge and join the slow players learners group. Eventually, I hope to change to Irish flute if I get the hang of it. Anyway, I have a question regarding the sheet music that accompanies the various tunes on the slowplayers.org site. Will this sheet music work with flute as well as other instruments. Sorry if this sound silly but I would appreciate any advice. I am going to try to improve my ear but would love to have the sheet music as an aid. Thanks.
Sometimes, with fiddle music you'll find a tune that goes below the stave. That could be a problem on the flute, but you can usually work around it. If you can't work around it, or the work-around doesn't sound right, then just sit that tune out and enjoy listening.
There are no things written in 'wrong' keys, unlike some orchestral wind instruments I understand.
However, as mentioned above, some tunes do go down to the bottom string available on the fiddle/violin, ie as low as G below middle C ( but not so very often ).
You just have to go up an octave at that point, same as the whistle-players. In fact, I would suggest, if you are competent on the flute, when not take up whistle now ? You only need a D, and it will have the same range, and fingering, but an octave higher, than an 'Irish' flute. My partner takes both flute and whistles to sessions, and swops between them depending on her whim as to which suits a tune best.
Larry,
Welcome to the Yellow Mustard. You will learn a lot here. For starters, since I believe you are new to Irish trad, I recommend reading an informative introduction written by a frequent poster here, AlBrown. Click on the Members tab and enter AlBrown (no space) in the search bar. It's a great service by him for newcomers.
"Concert flute" usually refers to the "irish flute" at least in Ireland and other communities of irish flute players. Silver, Classical or Boehm flute is usually used to distinguish the two, I believe.
After all, technically they aren't "irish flutes" at all, as many (if not most) of the originals are english.
Where ever you are, Larry, it'd be good to find a teacher rather than learning from sheet music.
I'm really glad I joined this forum. Thanks to you all
for your very informative and helpful advice. I will take it all on board. I will certainly look into the whistle aspect. I don't know
how competent I am on the flute and that's not false modesty.
This will be the first time I will play with other people so I am sure I will learn how good or bad I am. It will be just great to be able to play with a group. Practising in your bedroom will only get you so far. I am a little nervous but looking forward to it.
I used to have a great teacher who would say that the only silly questions are the ones that don't get asked.
On sheet music please remember that the dots as we call them here are merely the skeleton of the tune, and usually a pretty lousy X-ray of them at that.
The reality of the tune are those parts not in the skeleton, the skin, the hair, etc. These things you can only learn over time, from your ears, from listening to lots of the particular music you are trying to play.
Welcome. As a six-month novice both to sessioning and to the site, the information you gain is valuable. Some words of both encouragement and caution:
1. Have thick skin, sometimes the advice here, while useful, can be tinged with good-natured ribbing or outright causticity.
2. This music is a journey, and that requires the utmost respect, regardless of what level of dedication you are able to commit to it. Avoid queries that suggest you are looking for shortcuts, or that you think this music is easy, you will avoid a good deal of the slagging mentioned in Point 1.
3. Other subjects that are likely to devolve into a slagfest (not necessarily in order of intensity):
* Advertising your pub band.
* Bodhrans
* Guitar backing/accompaniment
* Music notation (commonly referred to here as "the dots"
If you doubt me, search those items in the Discussion board and you'll see what I mean double-quick.
Other than that, welcome, enjoy, and learn.
p.s. If you've got access to a friendly slow session like you mentioned in your initial post, take full advantage. This will likely be your finest resource.
I've played silver flute for about 25 years and got into Irish music and simple system flute a little over 5 years ago. Feel free to email me with questions and I'll try and pass along any experience I've picked up.
One last thought; to amplify a great point by SWFL Fiddler (who always has great advice to share); you mentioned that you are a student of the concert flute. The role of music notation in Irish trad is exactly the opposite of the role of notation in classical music. Here, we depend on our ears as the main source of learning new tunes, and for those of us who come to trad from the classical world, that is perhaps the biggest and most important lesson to learn.
Thanks to you all. Really great to have a back up like this forum.
I will be coming back to you guys and gals again and again. Maybe someday I might be able to give as good advice as you have given me.
Go raibh míle maith agaibh. Nollaig.
I play with a flautist (sp?) who plays a silver boehm flute. She is quite possibly the best ear player I know, but I'd say she has help from the soft tone of the instrument. She is able to figure out phrasing by playing inaudibly quiet but loud enough to hear herself.
The question you are asking is not a surprising one, because there are instances where it's true that all sheet music isn't the same, most of which won't be relevant to you playing traditional music with traditional musicians
anything written for treble clef or G clef (the symbol is a stylized G which wraps around the G line on the staff) will be the same if you are playing "concert pitch" but there are instruments, none of which are commonly used in Irish Trad (but are sometimes heard on albums recorded by trad musicians such as Sharon Shannon and Donal Lunny) that are not usually written in concert pitch. In such cases you have to learn to compose if you want to communicate via sheet music to a player of such an instrument. the key signature should begin on another line or space of the staff and the clef symbol itself should rest on another line/ space of the staff. But usually a saxophone player won't know how to read music in any other way than assume that the music is written on a C stave rather than a G stave, because that is how saxophone players are taught to read music, probably have something to do with the mechanics of the instrument. Most Brass instruments favor flat keys while string and woodwind instruments usually favor sharp keys
Ditto as Fiddlechick7 put it ~ "I don't think there are any "silly" questions from beginners. Just genuine curiosity and wanting to understand!"
The only thing silly would be not to ask for help. To seek understanding should be a lifelong pursuit. To be able to acknowledge that someone else, some other source than ourselves, might have greater experience or understanding, being open and curious, is to be able to learn, a priceless treasure that aspect of humility. It is something we fat heads have to regularly deflate to... The lessons I've learned from beginners, and the deflations, are priceless to me.
Best of luck, and continue to do your best to learn a 'few' tunes well and 'by heart' rather than swamping yourself with the many, via your ears. Learn some of the slow pieces played in your local sessions, and don't push yourself to speed, that should come slowly, with time, without building in tension or frustration.
Your best sources are direct, face-to-face, 'tradition', however rough, though better if they can inspire you. If you can get in on some classes or workshops or just learning from a more accomplished sessioner, don't pass that up. On the concert flute side of things, there are a few such musicians who have established themselves in the tradition with various versions of the concert flute, despite having to 'adapt'. 'Adaption' is one of the main aspects of 'tradition'...
Beginners often ask "silly" questions, but not because they are silly people. Yes, most of the questions come from genuine curiosity and wanting to understand, but they can still be silly questions. Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed off, just so long as you are actively and intelligently pursuing its eradication.
Admitting that your question may well be silly is a measure of humility that I can admire in the original poster.
Larry, regarding your specific question, I'd advise you to read this recent thread from the above poster, ceolachan. I'd say he's one of the wisest people here (if a bit long winded, ha ha): http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23710/
Sorry for the oversight. I see you've only just arrived here, this month?
With regards to Jimmy B's #1 above, yes, not being to sensitive to what sometimes slips out here is a fair warning. Sometimes we get carried away, and it is far too easy to read print in more than one way. If something upsets, well, move on, check it again later. Most people here are about promoting this shared passion for tradition. You can always return and view what was said with that in mind. Most contributions are intended to 'promote', help and support, not denegrade. Yes, 'slagging' also happens, but mostly that is affectionate rather than 'caustic'.
I just looked at my post and I wanted to ament it a bit. I listed some items that suggested they invariably lead to slagging. This is not true, and a very assumptive assessment on my part. They usually lead to very passionate discussions (particularly in regards to music notation), and sometimes to slagging, but I've actually I've seen an improvement in that of late, after a few months where it was pretty bad.
Larry, it is well worth listening to each tune you wish to learn. This may seem obvious, though plenty of tunes are read before even being heard. My advice would be, have your first source be an aural source. I caution people against beginning with sheet music.
IMHO it tends to add a step in the process of getting the tune into your head. But take your time & don't try to learn too many tunes before you have a few really in your head. You have to make your own choice about using sheet music. But your primary source is very important in terms of hearing everything in a tune, having it in your head, & playing the tune on your instrument.
Cheer!
Silly Question from a beginner
Silly Question from a beginner
I have been learning concert flute for the past year or two. I am not naturally talented but am willing to work hard to learn. I am going to take the plunge and join the slow players learners group. Eventually, I hope to change to Irish flute if I get the hang of it. Anyway, I have a question regarding the sheet music that accompanies the various tunes on the slowplayers.org site. Will this sheet music work with flute as well as other instruments. Sorry if this sound silly but I would appreciate any advice. I am going to try to improve my ear but would love to have the sheet music as an aid. Thanks.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by larrythecat
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Sometimes, with fiddle music you'll find a tune that goes below the stave. That could be a problem on the flute, but you can usually work around it. If you can't work around it, or the work-around doesn't sound right, then just sit that tune out and enjoy listening.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Yes. Sheet music is sheet music for the most part.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Gringo
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Thanks guys. Much appreciated.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by larrythecat
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
There are no things written in 'wrong' keys, unlike some orchestral wind instruments I understand.
However, as mentioned above, some tunes do go down to the bottom string available on the fiddle/violin, ie as low as G below middle C ( but not so very often ).
You just have to go up an octave at that point, same as the whistle-players. In fact, I would suggest, if you are competent on the flute, when not take up whistle now ? You only need a D, and it will have the same range, and fingering, but an octave higher, than an 'Irish' flute. My partner takes both flute and whistles to sessions, and swops between them depending on her whim as to which suits a tune best.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
The whistle would be sensible, since your concert flute will probably present difficulties in execution of the ornamentation.
The sheet music question has been answered correctly, I believe: the notes on the sheet, played on the flute, will correspond to the tune.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Just a word on semantics... I don't think there are any "silly" questions from beginners. Just genuine curiosity and wanting to understand!
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Larry,
Welcome to the Yellow Mustard. You will learn a lot here. For starters, since I believe you are new to Irish trad, I recommend reading an informative introduction written by a frequent poster here, AlBrown. Click on the Members tab and enter AlBrown (no space) in the search bar. It's a great service by him for newcomers.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
"Concert flute" usually refers to the "irish flute" at least in Ireland and other communities of irish flute players. Silver, Classical or Boehm flute is usually used to distinguish the two, I believe.
After all, technically they aren't "irish flutes" at all, as many (if not most) of the originals are english.
Where ever you are, Larry, it'd be good to find a teacher rather than learning from sheet music.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Nico
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
I'm really glad I joined this forum. Thanks to you all
for your very informative and helpful advice. I will take it all on board. I will certainly look into the whistle aspect. I don't know
how competent I am on the flute and that's not false modesty.
This will be the first time I will play with other people so I am sure I will learn how good or bad I am. It will be just great to be able to play with a group. Practising in your bedroom will only get you so far. I am a little nervous but looking forward to it.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by larrythecat
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Good luck Larry. Here's Al's great guide that Greg was talking about:
http://www.thesession.org/members/display/7960
I used to have a great teacher who would say that the only silly questions are the ones that don't get asked.
On sheet music please remember that the dots as we call them here are merely the skeleton of the tune, and usually a pretty lousy X-ray of them at that.
The reality of the tune are those parts not in the skeleton, the skin, the hair, etc. These things you can only learn over time, from your ears, from listening to lots of the particular music you are trying to play.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Larry -
Welcome. As a six-month novice both to sessioning and to the site, the information you gain is valuable. Some words of both encouragement and caution:
1. Have thick skin, sometimes the advice here, while useful, can be tinged with good-natured ribbing or outright causticity.
2. This music is a journey, and that requires the utmost respect, regardless of what level of dedication you are able to commit to it. Avoid queries that suggest you are looking for shortcuts, or that you think this music is easy, you will avoid a good deal of the slagging mentioned in Point 1.
3. Other subjects that are likely to devolve into a slagfest (not necessarily in order of intensity):
* Advertising your pub band.
* Bodhrans
* Guitar backing/accompaniment
* Music notation (commonly referred to here as "the dots"
If you doubt me, search those items in the Discussion board and you'll see what I mean double-quick.
Other than that, welcome, enjoy, and learn.
p.s. If you've got access to a friendly slow session like you mentioned in your initial post, take full advantage. This will likely be your finest resource.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
By the way, I was referring to myself as the six-month novice. Not sure if that was clear enough.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Hey Larry,
I've played silver flute for about 25 years and got into Irish music and simple system flute a little over 5 years ago. Feel free to email me with questions and I'll try and pass along any experience I've picked up.
Good Luck and Enjoy!
Sincerely,
Jason
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by jasonlburnfield
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
One last thought; to amplify a great point by SWFL Fiddler (who always has great advice to share); you mentioned that you are a student of the concert flute. The role of music notation in Irish trad is exactly the opposite of the role of notation in classical music. Here, we depend on our ears as the main source of learning new tunes, and for those of us who come to trad from the classical world, that is perhaps the biggest and most important lesson to learn.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
Thanks to you all. Really great to have a back up like this forum.
I will be coming back to you guys and gals again and again. Maybe someday I might be able to give as good advice as you have given me.
Go raibh míle maith agaibh. Nollaig.
# Posted on February 2nd 2010 by larrythecat
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
I play with a flautist (sp?) who plays a silver boehm flute. She is quite possibly the best ear player I know, but I'd say she has help from the soft tone of the instrument. She is able to figure out phrasing by playing inaudibly quiet but loud enough to hear herself.
The question you are asking is not a surprising one, because there are instances where it's true that all sheet music isn't the same, most of which won't be relevant to you playing traditional music with traditional musicians
anything written for treble clef or G clef (the symbol is a stylized G which wraps around the G line on the staff) will be the same if you are playing "concert pitch" but there are instruments, none of which are commonly used in Irish Trad (but are sometimes heard on albums recorded by trad musicians such as Sharon Shannon and Donal Lunny) that are not usually written in concert pitch. In such cases you have to learn to compose if you want to communicate via sheet music to a player of such an instrument. the key signature should begin on another line or space of the staff and the clef symbol itself should rest on another line/ space of the staff. But usually a saxophone player won't know how to read music in any other way than assume that the music is written on a C stave rather than a G stave, because that is how saxophone players are taught to read music, probably have something to do with the mechanics of the instrument. Most Brass instruments favor flat keys while string and woodwind instruments usually favor sharp keys
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
http://www.slowplayers.org/
The lessons I've learned from beginners, and the deflations, are priceless to me.
Ditto as Fiddlechick7 put it ~ "I don't think there are any "silly" questions from beginners. Just genuine curiosity and wanting to understand!"
The only thing silly would be not to ask for help. To seek understanding should be a lifelong pursuit. To be able to acknowledge that someone else, some other source than ourselves, might have greater experience or understanding, being open and curious, is to be able to learn, a priceless treasure that aspect of humility. It is something we fat heads have to regularly deflate to...
Best of luck, and continue to do your best to learn a 'few' tunes well and 'by heart' rather than swamping yourself with the many, via your ears. Learn some of the slow pieces played in your local sessions, and don't push yourself to speed, that should come slowly, with time, without building in tension or frustration.
Your best sources are direct, face-to-face, 'tradition', however rough, though better if they can inspire you. If you can get in on some classes or workshops or just learning from a more accomplished sessioner, don't pass that up. On the concert flute side of things, there are a few such musicians who have established themselves in the tradition with various versions of the concert flute, despite having to 'adapt'. 'Adaption' is one of the main aspects of 'tradition'...
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
"Just a word on semantics..."
Beginners often ask "silly" questions, but not because they are silly people. Yes, most of the questions come from genuine curiosity and wanting to understand, but they can still be silly questions. Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed off, just so long as you are actively and intelligently pursuing its eradication.
Admitting that your question may well be silly is a measure of humility that I can admire in the original poster.
Larry, regarding your specific question, I'd advise you to read this recent thread from the above poster, ceolachan. I'd say he's one of the wisest people here (if a bit long winded, ha ha):
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23710/
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by ...
WELCOME!
(& virtual frim handshake)
Sorry for the oversight. I see you've only just arrived here, this month?
With regards to Jimmy B's #1 above, yes, not being to sensitive to what sometimes slips out here is a fair warning. Sometimes we get carried away, and it is far too easy to read print in more than one way. If something upsets, well, move on, check it again later. Most people here are about promoting this shared passion for tradition. You can always return and view what was said with that in mind. Most contributions are intended to 'promote', help and support, not denegrade. Yes, 'slagging' also happens, but mostly that is affectionate rather than 'caustic'.
Don't forget to read the FAQs...
Yes, at times long winded...
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by ceolachan
"~ not being 'too' sensitive ~" ~ having been so myself from time to time...
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Silly Question from a beginner
ceolachan -
I just looked at my post and I wanted to ament it a bit. I listed some items that suggested they invariably lead to slagging. This is not true, and a very assumptive assessment on my part. They usually lead to very passionate discussions (particularly in regards to music notation), and sometimes to slagging, but I've actually I've seen an improvement in that of late, after a few months where it was pretty bad.
Cheers
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by Jimmy B
Question from a beginner
Larry, it is well worth listening to each tune you wish to learn. This may seem obvious, though plenty of tunes are read before even being heard. My advice would be, have your first source be an aural source. I caution people against beginning with sheet music.
IMHO it tends to add a step in the process of getting the tune into your head. But take your time & don't try to learn too many tunes before you have a few really in your head. You have to make your own choice about using sheet music. But your primary source is very important in terms of hearing everything in a tune, having it in your head, & playing the tune on your instrument.
Cheer!
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by Ben Steen
~
Shannon Heaton offers her Tune of the Month. She is a flute player. http://www.mattandshannonheaton.com/
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by Ben Steen
Silliness
I said sheet music adds one additional step in learning a tune.
Slagging adds about 10. Just kidding. ;)
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by Ben Steen