When playing stringed instruments, such as tenor banjo, mandolin, cittern, etc., some players advocate a consistent, or almost formula-driven, picking pattern, such as DUD DUD pick direction in 9/8 jigs or DUDU DUDU for reels. Depending on the type of tune, these patterns can get somewhat complicated, and I confess that my personal bias is that every tune is different and you should find the phrasing and emphasis that fits your style while staying within the tradition.
Some mandolin players I know, especially bluegrass players, like the “constant rhythm” method. What this method looks and sounds like to me is that you basically keep your hand/brain going in eighth notes over the strings and then hit the appropriate string to sound the right note at the right time.
There are a lot of great players that play with specific hand rhythms, and a lot of great players that don't. As far as I'm concerned, if you make the music sound good, I don't care how you do it.
But, for me, that definitely includes using the hand rhythms that you mentioned...
In reels, a DUDU DUDU pattern was one of the things that helped me get up to session speed. I found that in places where I was "cheating" when doing string crossings, my rhythm would suffer, and I couldn't play it nearly as fast.
And a DUD DUD pattern in jigs really helped me get the basic rhythm down. You certainly don't want to sound like a machine when you're playing, but I found it difficult to get the note in-equivalences right when i was picking some down beats with up strokes and some with down strokes. There are drawbacks to that pattern in jigs, because ornamentation becomes more difficult (there are instances where you might do 3 down strokes in a row, for instance...) And I will occasionally vary the pattern to be able to play a particular articulation.
Okay, how about speed of movement? For example, doing DUD would surely be faster than DDD, as you suggest since you would have to travel two extra passes without hitting a note if I’m counting correctly.
I don’t mean to challenge you on this point, but just want to understand how the total distance traveled enters into the evaluation, after all, speed is a consideration.
Using DUD DUD in jigs is definitely a tradeoff between speed and rhythm when you're first getting used to it. But I was "raised"to believe that rhythm is more important than speed. And the ability to play jigs at speed with that pattern comes with time, as you get used to it.
The place where you might get 3 down strokes in a row would be doing a triplet on the down beat, for instance:
DUD (dud)D DUD... You get used to that after a while. But it can be difficult to pull off at a high speed. So that might be a place where I would vary my pattern for a second, or maybe drop a note, which can be used to give a different emphasis to the articulation...
One other thing I wonder about is that a downstroke is believed to sound different than an upstroke... Why? Does it matter for a fiddler whether their bow is on the upstroke rather than a downstroke?
With a pick (plectrum), downstrokes have the mass of the thumb on top of the pick to "oomph" the striking motion. Good pickers tend to work on exaggerating the up picks until they can make them sound more or less the same, but it actual playing, down picks are heavier.
And the reason for this answers--at least if I understand them--your queries here: down picks fall *on* the beats.
In a reel |1234 1234| you want all the 1s and 3s to be picked with down picks because that's where the natural accent of the rhythm and form fall. The up picks happen on 2s and 4s.
Same for jigs |123 123| and slip jigs |123 123 123| ... you want the down picks to take care of the 1s, and to a lesser but significant degree, the 3s, while the "2" notes are appropriately less emphasized, thanks to up picks.
If you do something other than this, the music tends to sound funny--you lose the emphasis on the beats, and it can interfere with a sense of flow.
The picking really doesn't get all that complicated in this music (say, compared to cross and sweep picking used in Bluegrass and some Rock).
But there are some ideas worth woodshedding on, or using for warm ups.
There are two ways to pick alternating (any pair of) adjacent strings:
DOWN on the lower pitched string, UP on the higher pitched string (e.g. DOWN on A, UP on E)
Or:
DOWN on the higher, UP on the lower (e.g., DOWN on e, UP on A)
If you do this, you'll notice that in the first case, your picks always ends up on the "outside" of the pair of strings, and in the second case, your pick always ends up on the "inside" of the pair of strings.
Also, the note that follows a quarter note is almost always picked in the same direction of that previous quarter note. E.g., a down-picked 1/4 is followed by a down-picked note (regardless of whether it is a 1/4 or 1/8. etc.), and an up-picked quarter is followed by an up-picked note. Again, this is to keep the downs on the beats, and the ups between.
Speed of picking isn't actually very important. You're moving in 1/8 notes, so even at a pretty quick tempo, you're not moving all that fast. The special case is the triplet, which is a stereotyped movement, a reflex - not a true triplet! - and is therefore fired as a single impulse.
To play 1/64 runs in rock and roll guitar-hero style, I suppose you'd need to develop all sorts of picking patterns. I wouldn't know, I've never been interested in trying to do that, but I'm told it's the case. In trad music, you're just not playing that fast, and never in that unrelieved barrage style, so speed won't fly as an argument for picking patterns.
As for the matter of emphasis... much as I hate to dispute with the redoubtable but dubiously-named "Miss Lonelyhearts", I've always worked on the assumption that a good right hand technique should be capable of playing a downbeat on an upstroke or vice versa, and I find there's little difficulty in achieving this, without anything "funny" in the sound.
This is greatly to be desired, since it frees you up from the strict patterns, which tend to lock the tune into a fairly metronomic pattern, much to the detriment of the swing.
I suppose it's true that there's a maximal emphasis possible on the downstrokes that you can't get on the upstrokes, but you shouldn't be out at the edge in normal playing - save that for emphasis when it's needed.
I wish I had a carefully worked-out science of picking to share with you, but there are a few considerations I can come up with that seem relevant.
- Every stroke sets up the next. You should be thinking ahead to the next breath point, and setting yourself up for any triplets you're going to need.
- If you aren't thinking of breath when you're picking a tune, stop, learn the tune on the pennywhistle, and then come back to it on guitar. A whistle player is forced to think of phrasing, since they have a finite stream of air before they fall over, and they have to find a place where the tune can breathe. A guitar player, not bound by this physiological limitation, has to make a conscious decision to think about phrasing, or they sound like a robot.
- Don't pick every note. Your left hand can do a lot of the work for you, especially coming off a note. In Kitty's Rambles - I keep thinking of examples in that tune - I typically play the first two bars on about five strokes of the pick, if you cound a triplet as one stroke, as I do. The first descending half-measure gets a downstroke. The second half-measure gets a down and an up on the A, to set you up for the triplet in the third half-measure, and an upstroke on the fourth half-measure.
I might play it differently, and I often do, but that's about my most typical way. In reels, I suppose, I pick a lot more of the notes, but if there's a lazy way to play it that sounds good, I'll go for the lazy way.
- Since I'm thinking of jigs, always be aware of whether you're going to play a given half-measure as straight or detached. By "detached" I mean that the first beat of the three is in one phrase, and the third or the second and third are pickups to the next phrase. The first example that springs to mind is in My Darling the Sheep, where you have this:
fdd cAA |BAG A-G|FAA def| gfg eag|fdd cAA ...
If you play the fourth bar in straight dud dud patterns you're liable to miss the fact that one phrase ends on the |gfg e ... and another begins with the ... ag|fdd cAA ....
This actually is just a part of the breathing business, I suppose, but still: always be aware that the tune doesn't care about the bar lines overmuch, and your picking shouldn't either. Picking patterns tend to anchor themselves to bar lines, and when they do, they produce unfortunate results.
- This is idiosyncratic, and gets away from the right hand, but it's good advice anyway: it's almost always better to play the c natural on the G string than to try to make it work on the B. There are exceptions, of course, but if you always try the fifth-fret c natural first, you're likely to find more comfortable fingerings. It does make a lot of right hand work easier, since you can let the left hand take care of the weak B natural in an ascending run. You can't do that if you're trying to hit it on the open string.
- Obviously, there aren't any hard and fast rules here, but it comes down to learning the tune, and finding the way the tune goes on your guitar. That way each tune sounds like itself, rather than sounding like another run-through of your favorite pattern.
Interesting thread ... also on the level of "how technical can you get?" Basically I´d agree with Dennis Regan ("Just feel it out and you´ll pick OK!") I think this is probably the way experienced, "real" (??) trad players would approach it. Myself has a background in bluegrass/old time guitar and banjo - 5string, that is - and recently I began to experiment around with flatpicking Irish tunes on guitar and tenor, working my way through O´Neill and tunes I found here, Kevin Burke tunes like "Across the Black River" , amongst others. Listening to lots of Irish tenor players and the way they flatpick tunes, I believe I found one difference to the way bluegrassers approach a tune - and I think this applies to tenor banjo as well as to guitar: the Irish players tend to play each note separately whereas the bluegrass pickers tend to get many notes by way of hammering-ons and pull-offs. This gives their respective interpretations a different `atmosphere´ (for want of a better word) - makes them swing more - and of course has consequences for the pick movements: depending on how much you use these techniques, and where in a tune, your movements are never in a strict pattern, you emphasize differently - and so give the tune a character of its own- or of your own.
I'm certainly no expert but i always find DUD DUD best for jigs but its only a base and ya don't religously stick to it. I'ver seen people drastically improve by adopting this pattern but only those who were struggling before. Thing is many players don't use this and still achieve great results. The only reason to change is if you're struggling to play tunes effectivley. If you're doing fine and the rhythm is good don't change a thing.
Good points from both perspectives on this. Dennis' point about just feeling it out is an approach that will work for a lot of people.
For me, that was the approach I started with. But I was coming at it from a completely outside perspective. I didn't grow up around the music. So when I was first learning, I hadn't internalized the jig rhythm, and hadn't thought about the subtleties of the difference in length of the three notes. I was learning my instrument at the same time I was becoming familiar with the music. So my jigs got a LOT better when someone (ahem - ML) got me into picking DUD DUD. That was a simple thing that helped me approximate the proper rhythm before I had really internalized what it should actually sound like.
These picking patterns exploit the natural strong/weak accent of the downstroke and upstroke respectively much like left/right sticking in snare drumming. You can certainly train yourself to hit either way with a stronger or weaker attack but this gives a pretty good result right away.
I've heard a couple of people play with that "constant rhythm" approach and I really thought their playing was a sloppy, inarticulate mess. How much of the problem was the approach and how much was them I can't really say. Their primary concern was volume and unfortunately, at that they excelled. They were in fact primarily bluegrass players and I don't think they really "get" Irish music very well.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you be this analytical when you *play.* I can type ad nauseum about picking (and bowing), etc., because I *teach* it, not because I think this way all the time. And when someone asks a question about technique, it doesn't do them much good to reply, "just do it." If that approach was working for them, they probably wouldn't have asked for some advice....
That said, nearly all of the best players I've ever met know precisely what they're doing and can dissect it to the smallest level. Again--not that they do this when playing. But they've focused on the subtleties and thought through them at some point. That's in part what makes their playing so good.
And while it's generally true that you're better off if you can do anything with an up pick that you can do with a down, the vast majority of pickers stick the majority of the time to down on the beats, up on the "ands" in between. It's the most important aspect of picking for anyone struggling at the outset to get their picking to sound right.
Why do I get the feeling that most of us who are the most talkative on this board have done some time teaching?
I suppose the gentle lady from Montana and I will have to disagree on the matter of learning picking patterns. I find the advantages to be far outweighed by the bad habits they instill.
But I think the arguments for both views have been made well, and there's no point in banging on about it further - until the next time it comes up...
Hmmm, well I don't think of what I do as "picking patterns" at all, just playing the beats with down picks, most of the time. And that doesn't impede how I phrase across bar lines or tie pick up notes to the following phrase. But maybe that's because fiddle is my main instrument--phrasing is very variable and fluid with a bow.
Odd though, Jon, that you seemed to focus on picking these tunes on guitar, when the OP was asking about tenor banjo and mandolin. And there are significant differences in how I'd approach the tunes among those instruments. Neither banjo or mando have the sustain that a guitar has, so hammer-ons and pull-offs, (especially several of either strung together) aren't as typical on banjo and mando. At least in this music.
I think if you learn the music on a more traditional instrument, it's not surprising that you learn a more traditional phrasing. If you learn them originally on a plectrum instrument, the patterns tend to be more rigid.
"...you seemed to focus on picking these tunes on guitar, when the OP was asking about tenor banjo and mandolin...Neither banjo or mando have the sustain that a guitar has, so hammer-ons and pull-offs, aren't as typical on banjo and mando."
Oh, I use the same techniques on all three, they work fine for me. But that's just how I play them. A strong left hand and a lazy right hand. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
I have NEVER heard such complications and pontifications in all my life!!!
We're talking about playing along to some tunes, for God's sake.
It's not rocket science.
Some people are more analytical than others. I really benefit from thinking about this music on an intellectual level, even though it's not a conscious thought process while I'm actually playing. I have internalized the picking patterns, the same way that I have internalized the rhythms.
But other people might find over-analyzation of this stuff to be detrimental, who knows To each his own...
But just because analyzing it to this level seems superfluous to you, Dennis, doesn't mean that it's not useful for other people!
I'm with Dennis. I never give it a thought, although I've played stringed instruments for almost 40 years. For kicks, after seeing this thread I tried to track my picking patterns on a few tunes and there is absolutely no standard pattern and having one would seem to hinder smooth, quick playing. It would also impead the ability to easily ornament and maintain rhythm.
"I never give it a thought, although I've played stringed instruments for almost 40 years."
In 35 years of teaching people to play stringed instruments, my experience is that the above comment is almost always followed by either (1) decent picking that plays down on the beats and up between (but the player has just "never given it a thought"), or (2) inept picking that's hindering the player--they can't actually play smoothly, in time, and up to speed.
Geez, there's not much of a "pattern" here. The pick goes up, it goes down (on the beats, nearly always). Unless you're doing lots of cross picking and sweeps, it's very straightforward. And if you *don't* use cross picking and sweeps, then you're missing some fun tools from your kit.
P.S. Dennis, actually, we're not talking about "playing along to some tunes." Or at least I'm not. I'm talking about picking the tunes themselves. (Not that playing back up is necessarily uncomplicated.)
And if you think this thread overanalyzes picking, then don't ever get a tutorial by Gerry O'Connor, Enda Scahill, Mike Marshall, or Chris Thile.
If a player uses a particular technique (or lack thereof) to make the music sound good, why should it matter how much analytical thought they put into it? I don't think that anyone is trying to say that using a picking pattern is the only way to do it.
Keep in mind, though, that there is a big difference between someone who grew up in Ireland, exposed to the music since childhood, and someone who grew up listening to Rock and Roll in, say, Detroit. And there's a difference between someone who has been playing for 40 years, and someone who is just starting out.
I would recommend that if someone is reading this debate, looking for ideas about how to learn, they should try to take both points of view into account, and see what there is to be learned from it.
I just don't get what's so startling with the notion of *thinking* about how you pick. God forbid we use our brains....
Years ago, I learned to play by "just playing," and after a few years, realized that I was hearing things in better musician's playing that I couldn't do. And I wanted to do those things. So I started sussing out what they did to get specific sounds--a certain pulse, a twiddly bit I hadn't heard before, etc. Some of it came readily enough, but some--like cross picking on mando and guitar, or pedal bowing on fiddle--I had to understand *before* I could even decipher what to do with the pick or bow. I don't see how learning some specific concepts is harmful to one's progress as a player.
I regularly run into fiddlers who don't have a clue how to do pedal (aka figure-eight) bowing, which is a super pulsey way to play certain phrases that are everywhere in Irish traditional reels (and in old time and bluegrass). Think: |E2 BE dEBE| in Drowsy Maggie or the Tap Room. The bowing "pattern" is counterintuitive--it involves slurring three eighth notes on an up bow while crossing from a low string, up to a higher string, and then back to the string you started on. Few people would ever do that accidentally, but when you figure it out (or someone teaches it to you), it's one of the most rhythmically expressive bowing options a fiddler can have in hand. Without it, those sorts of phases sound choppy, or worse.
I learned pedal bowing from a former Bothy Band fiddler, who'd clearly thought about his bowing and could articulate it to pass the idea along. Shocking, eh?
Besides, if "just play" worked for everyone, everyone would make beautiful music and we'd all be brilliant, eh?
I've never heard Dennis or Shanty play, and they very well may be wonderful pickers. But for every person I've run into with the "just play" attitude who *can* play well, there are hundreds who play with little to no feel for the rhythm, timing, and flow of the music. That works to my benefit, since I earn a living teaching those hundreds how to "just play" by helping them understand the basics and the further expressive options available.
ML-I don't even know what the term 'cross picking' means. If it means jumping from one string to the other -
I do a lot of that. And I'm not 'startled' that some people think about 'picking patterns'--just interested because I've never given it a thought and have never discussed it in my entire musicle life. It's interesting to me. I'm not cutting it down, just like all the dots arguments - you use what ever you need to make the best music you can.
I may be misunderstanding some of this, but if emphasis of some notes relative to others, such as by picking up rather than picking down, can make the music sound more authentic, how does this work with pipers or box players?
I don't play either instrument, so I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like players of these instruments (and probably some other instruments as well) would have much control over note-to-note volume or attack.
When I talk about cross picking, I'm usually talking about picking in the opposite direction of your hand movement. So, for instance, if you're moving from the A course to the D course, your hand is moving upward, but you might do a Down stroke pick. And if you think about picking the open strings: DADA DADA with a DUDU DUDU motion, you're picking the "outside" of the strings...
When I asked a teacher to show me how to pick tunes on a guitar, he suggested that I start with DUDU for reels and DUDDUD for jigs, and keep to that rigidly, even when it didn't seem right because of which way the melody was moving, and which string I was going to next. He also suggested playing the tune as a string of eighth notes, replacing quarter notes with two eighth notes, dotted quarters with three eighth notes, etc. But then he said that, after I got good at the rigid approach in my practice exercises, I would know when to depart from it, and change picking directions to fit the tune, which string I was moving to, etc. For real playing, he recommended a much more flexible approach.
In the end, however, I decided to stick to strumming on my guitar, and to go to playing the whistle or accordion when it came time for the melody!
Keep in mind that it's not just volume that we're talking about here. We're also talking about note lengths. So in a jig, of the three notes, the first one is the longest, the second one is the shortest, and the third one is longer, but not as long as the first one. (This is a generalization, of course). A DUD DUD picking pattern plays well into that rhythm.
I don't play any of the wind instruments (other than a little whistle), and I really admire people who play them well, because the rhythm has to be so much more internalized. When you use a picking pattern on a plectrum instrument, some of the rhythm lives within the repetitive physical movement of your right hand. It's almost as if your hand is dancing to the music, and feeling the rhythm, the same way that you would tap your feet...
My use of "cross picking" refers to playing across three or more strings, in sequence. It's common in bluegrass, and flatipicking ragtime guitar, simulating a Scrugg's style roll on banjo. A typical cross picking pattern on mandolin, for example, would be picking DUDUDUDU on the strings in the following order: |DAE DAE DA|DAE DAE DA|etc.
This gives you an arpeggio across any chord, and you can move left hand fingers to pull in melody notes. Some players use different pick directions for that same string sequence, and there are lots of other cross picking patterns for various effects and time signatures.
(To hear an example, search YouTube for Beaumont Rag on guitar. Or just click here and listen at least through the B part of the tune.)
Sorry Shanty. I guess I just get tired of how often some people on this forum laugh at any attempts to discuss the finer points of playing the music. Since we can't actually play the music with each other here, we're left to typing away at it. Not near as satisfying, but it can still be interesting, edyufacational, and fun, eh?
Miss Lonelyhearts try not to take it so much to heart. Peace of mind requires a bit of trust in peoples' better nature. I learned this from Zina Lee. ;)
I think Kiparsky was on to something when he said educators tend to also be pontificators. The rest of us are sometimes left to feel like young students squirming in our wooden seats. Peace.
Look, all I tried to do on this thread was respond to the OP by explaining my understanding of how to use a pick on some strings. It's not "formal" anything, and it's just my opinions, based on learning by "just playing," and then going back and figuring out what I was doing, what worked and what didn't, and then learning some more.
When other folks chime in ridiculing anything more thoughtful than "just play," it strikes me as championing ignorance over genuine learning and progress. Us humans do that all the time and it gets us no where. When I responded to random's point about people's better nature, I was exercising my curmudgeonly side, not pointing a finger at anyone specifically on this thread.
So I get a yellow card for responding to Dennis' baiting [his post: "I have NEVER heard such complications and pontifications in all my life!!!
We're talking about playing along to some tunes, for God's sake. It's not rocket science."]? Sorry again Shanty, but it sounded like you were jumping onto Dennis' bandwagon.
Maybe after 9 years on this forum, it wears thin when those of us with some experience--in both playing *and* explaining how to play--get called out for simply responding to requests for help from fellow musicians.
OP: [types in a question on the mustard board, seeking specifics]
Mustard board member: [offers a response]
Eejit: [often using caps] JAYSUS! Look at all this typing, all these pixels on the screen! Yer all fools! Just play!
What do the eejits expect when they log in here? No words? No sense in discussing anything? Why are they here then?
I agree with the mantra that "If you want to play well, log off and go play." But I also play a ton of music five days a week giving lessons, and I play a lot on weekends, too. Is it silly to spend a fraction of that time thinking about all that activity and sharing ideas here? Would this forum be a better place if the "pontificators" left and the only answers were "HOLY CRAP! Just play!"???
I think Dennis's opinion is as valid as yours. Yours is certainly more thought out and informative for someone asking about picking patterns, however the OP asked for opinions and Dennis's opinion, like mine and, jon's, steve's, fergalOH's and, surprisingly, the OP's(" I confess that my personal bias is that every tune is different and you should find the phrasing and emphasis that fits your style while staying within the tradition") are no more or less "ignorant" than yours. They were, however, less wordy.
Some picking, like DUD DUD is counter-intuitive at first for most of us and needs to be "learned" - most people will never get it by doing just what feels right.
Once you've learned it properly, you then have the freedom to use it when it feels right.
And the OP didn't ask for opinions--he asked for "thoughts and recommendations."
I think opinions are "valid" only if they can be tested and found reasonable and well informed. So, no, not all opinions are valid, nor are they equal. Some opinions are invalid, in fact, because they're ill- or uninformed.
Besides, nothing I've posted contradicts the OP's notion of basing your playing on each tune's melody and phrasing, etc. Paying attention to the tune at that subtle level is what makes picking and bowing come alive. That sounds like a fairly thoughtful, or at least conscious, approach to playing, to me. In contrast to not thinking about picking throughout your 40 years of playing, or "just playing."
Funny--these threads about technique so often get derailed into debates about whether it's helpful or even allowable to think about and and explain technique. And that's what's tiresome, at least for those of us who actually enjoy an occasional conversation about something other than football, straying celebrities, or angst-riddled adolescents and their fragile, explosive, Hindenburgian egos (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23654).
You're right--I can be wordy, when it's called for. In responding to the OP, I think Mr. Kiparsky has me beat, though.
I love this forum. Where else would you find Americans arguing about how to play an Italian instrument in an Irish music tradition? Hee hee.
Someone suggested that plectrum payers should learn the tunes on a whistle to understand the phrasing (dictated by breathing). I'm not sure about this. Perhaps another way of looking at this is that whistle players are actually constrained by breathing? Why should I transfer those constraints to another instrument? Amazingly enough, you don't have to be a whistle player to understand phrasing in this or any other type of music. There also seems to be an underlying suggestion on many discussions here that plectrum players, particularly guitarists, inherently lack any understanding of phrasing.
As for technique development not being important, well that's just a bit silly. The old DUD DUD debate is an interesting example. Personally I think it's a good idea to learn how to create the same tone and weight with both down and up strokes, and to choose (consciously or otherwise) how to apply them to your own phrasing or interpretaion. Perhaps the only way to do this properly is to consider technique. If I may be as bold as to make a couple of suggestions:
1. The way you grip the plectrum is crucial to gaining control on the down and upstrokes. If you hold the plectrum in the 'pencil' grip (between the tips of your index finger and thumb) you are at an immediate disadvantage. The pencil grip is an example of the 'just play' philosophy, as it is the most intuitive way to hold the pick. Learning other ways to grip the pick involves a consideration of techniques that seem counter-intuitive at first, but are unavoidable, in my opinion, if you want to gain more control over down and up strokes.
2. Another way to develop more control (and more fluid timing) is to think about the force you put into the pick. Instead of pushing down into downstrokes and pulling up into upstrokes, think about 'dropping' and 'lifting' instead. This is a subtle difference, but I think it reduces tension in the wrist and allows you more control in attack, pulse, accent and volume, all of which are very helpful when it comes to phrasing.
... " I confess that my personal bias is that every tune is different and you should find the phrasing and emphasis that fits your style while staying within the tradition" ...
FWIW, I totally agree with this statement. There are two different (albeit related) things being talked about here. Phrasing, articulation, and emphasis are probably the most important aspects of this music. But in some ways they're on a different layer than the underlying rhythm. While it's true that you're doing subtle manipulation of the rhythm as part of your phrasing, what makes it musically interesting is that you're varying it from a baseline "norm". The underlying rhythm is still there, and that's where I find the picking patterns to be useful. I don't play like a machine, but having an underlying structure to my hand motion helps keep everything under control, and that, in turn, allows me to put more mental energy into the subtleties of phrasing, articulation, and variation.
LOL, thanks, Joel, for the international perspective.
I'm interested in your two points--how to hold the pick, and dropping and lifting. I usually discourage my students from the "pencil" grip because I think it limits wrist range of motion and doesn't support the pick as well as when the pick is under the thumb and on the side of the curled index finger.
But where exactly do you hold the pick? I used to have it under the meat of the pad of my thumb, over the first knuckle (from the tip) of the index. But for mandolin, I'm tending more and more to carry the pick closer to under the knuckle of the thumb--in other words, more toward the ball of the thumb. It's a difference of a millimeter or two, but seems to increase my pick speed while remaining relaxed.
As for pushing and pulling vs. dropping and lifting, that makes perfect sense to me. Bluegrass mando player Mike Compton talks about "rubbing" the strings instead of slapping at them, to play more smoothly. And Chris Thile emphasizes how loose a hold you can have on the pick as it glides over the strings.
Still, it takes some modicum of force to pick through a double course of 40 or 26 gauge strings (as on a mandolin). I'd like to hear more about how dropping and lifting feels as you do it.
Joel-if I read your third paragragh "and to choose (consciously or otherwise) how to apply them to your own phrasing or interpretaion" you are saying exactly what Dennis said, but again, using ten times the number of words to say it!
And don't forget to throw Africa into the mix of the international instruments-please don't forget the banjo!
Perhaps because whistle is my main instrument for playing tunes (although banjo is quickly rising to the top) I don't place a lot of importance on picking patterns.
@ Miss Lonelyhearts
"... attempts to discuss the finer points of playing the music ..."
One can only go so far in discussion forums, or in audio, or even in video, in passing on the finer points of technique and interpretation, especially when dealing with the technique at a professional level. Useful general comments can be made in print about posture, breathing, relaxation, and the rest of it, which point the player in the right direction, but eventually the stage is reached when words, video, audio can't do the job. The only way to deal with this is face-to-face tuition with a teacher who can see and hear the problems, knows what causes them in an individual case, and has workable solutions which need to be demonstrated, again face-to-face. Such teachers are worth their weight in gold.
lazyhound, I don't disagree, but I enjoy the challenge.
I get to teach loads of people every day face-to-face, and I well understand the advantages of that approach. But I also learn a lot about how to communicate this stuff by posting here, dealing with the constraints of explaining playing this music given nothing more than a keyboard and a screenful of pixels. More than once I've seen someone say, "You can't describe that in words," and after I've tried just that, people (llig, even!) have chimed in voicing thanks for the clear explanation.
That's the best we can do on this forum. Sure, go find a good in-person teacher. But there's no harm in asking here, and then trying out suggestions that seem thoughtful and based on experience.
Shanty, you're being either disingenuous or dim. What Joel posted is nearly a complete about-face from what Dennis said--when you read it in the context of that whole paragraph. Joel is *not* saying "Just play!" He's advocating that you "consider technique." I read that as putting some conscious thought into it. Given the examples he provides, I'd say he means fairly specific, concentrated thought.
If you don't like reading so many words on this topic, why are you bothering with it?
If I had had the chance to read a discussion like this twenty years ago it would have saved me a lot of grief later when having got into the habit of picking one way I realised it was not doing it for me and another way would have been better. A teacher might have, and a book did, only tought it one way.
I am hoping that laying the mandolin aside for a couple of years, during which time I have learned a lot more about the music, will have given my brain chance to do a partial reset ready for some relearning.
BTW, my post was not "baiting" as has been suggested above. I was simply stating my opinion on what had been said before.
"Baiting" implies attempting to get a response - I couldn't care less if I got a response or not.
I wanted to give my opinion on this whole picking pattern thing.
End of story.
More smileys might've helped, then, Dennis. When you shout (all caps) and call other people's posts "pontificating" it's hard to hear whether you're taking a light-hearted jab or just nastily trolling.
What is wrong with the term pontification? I learned it from CPT. (informing me to keep trying, "Dow loves an opportunity to pontificate")
I had to look carefully to find the CAPS ~ 1 word + 3 exclamation points?
THAT IS BAITING!*!*!
That is to say I am baiting by throwing your works back at you, Will. Not saying Will is doing the baiting by asking Dennis to explain his intent in using all caps.
Pardon me for any misunderstanding. ;)
Random, Dow and I were long-time friends here when I accused him of pontificating. He knew I was slagging him in good humor. With Dennis, he did the caps shout twice, offered nothing genuinely helpful, and seemed to be against the whole notion of thinking about picking.
Come to find out he was just stirring the pot a bit.
Joel, I never meant to suggest one must play the whistle to understand the tunes. & if guitar strings & a pick work for you that's grand. This is my soul music & I hear the ebb & flow, the pulse, what ever it is with whistle. I hope I'm not constrained, but neither should I say you are short of picking up that little Generation; or whatever you have in your guitar case. Leave it be. You're doing fine on guitar.
"In responding to the OP, I think Mr. Kiparsky has me beat, though."
As regards the matter of excessive verbosity, I must confess and avow that I do have a bit of a tendency in that general direction, as it were. It might even be said that I tend to go on somewhat, to enlarge on the subject, whether such voluminous contributions to the overall discourse are in fact warranted or not. In fact, It's been said, and I don't dispute it, that once I commence to opine on a matter, it's more or less a given that I'll be at it until the cows return to their bed of nocturnal slumber.
"Someone suggested that plectrum payers should learn the tunes on a whistle to understand the phrasing (dictated by breathing)....Perhaps another way of looking at this is that whistle players are actually constrained by breathing? Why should I transfer those constraints to another instrument? Amazingly enough, you don't have to be a whistle player to understand phrasing in this or any other type of music. "
That was me, and yes, I think that whistle players are constrained in a very beneficial way by the need to breathe. And I think that this is a constraint that the beginning guitarist especially could benefit from, if they have trouble with their phrasing. As I said in the posting you're referring to, if you're having trouble with your phrasing, learning the tunes on the whistle is a good way to force yourself to think about it.
Of course I wouldn't say that you have to be a whistle player to understand phrasing, but if you're having trouble with your phrasing, learning the tunes on a whistle is probably the quickest way to get yourself straightened out.
"...you don't have to be a whistle player to understand phrasing in this or any other type of music. There also seems to be an underlying suggestion on many discussions here that plectrum players, particularly guitarists, inherently lack any understanding of phrasing."
I wasn't thinking of anything but flatpicking reels, but in fact it's quite a common complaint about guitar players in jazz - they don't know how to breathe. This is especially true of the ones who spend a lot of time shedding on technique and less time listening to horn players. There are plenty of honorable exceptions - Grant Green and Wes Montgomery, or Bill Frisell today, come to mind - but there are a lot of guys who play like they're getting paid by the note, and they can't wait to get their check.
Trust me, when I was younger, I spent a lot of time with jazz musicians, and I heard all about the guitarists from all the other players.
I wouldn't say it's an inherent lack of understanding, since there are many guitarists in all genres who play with taste and musicality, but it does seem to be at least an occupational hazard.
"With Dennis, he did the caps shout twice, offered nothing genuinely helpful, and seemed to be against the whole notion of thinking about picking."
- Miss L.
I'm against making a big deal about "picking". I offered nothing genuinely helpful???? I said feel it out - this is the most helpful suggestion I can give. Sorry.
Picking patterns
Picking patterns
When playing stringed instruments, such as tenor banjo, mandolin, cittern, etc., some players advocate a consistent, or almost formula-driven, picking pattern, such as DUD DUD pick direction in 9/8 jigs or DUDU DUDU for reels. Depending on the type of tune, these patterns can get somewhat complicated, and I confess that my personal bias is that every tune is different and you should find the phrasing and emphasis that fits your style while staying within the tradition.
Some mandolin players I know, especially bluegrass players, like the “constant rhythm” method. What this method looks and sounds like to me is that you basically keep your hand/brain going in eighth notes over the strings and then hit the appropriate string to sound the right note at the right time.
Have any thoughts or recommendations on this?
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by dfost
Re: Picking patterns
There are a lot of great players that play with specific hand rhythms, and a lot of great players that don't. As far as I'm concerned, if you make the music sound good, I don't care how you do it.
But, for me, that definitely includes using the hand rhythms that you mentioned...
In reels, a DUDU DUDU pattern was one of the things that helped me get up to session speed. I found that in places where I was "cheating" when doing string crossings, my rhythm would suffer, and I couldn't play it nearly as fast.
And a DUD DUD pattern in jigs really helped me get the basic rhythm down. You certainly don't want to sound like a machine when you're playing, but I found it difficult to get the note in-equivalences right when i was picking some down beats with up strokes and some with down strokes. There are drawbacks to that pattern in jigs, because ornamentation becomes more difficult (there are instances where you might do 3 down strokes in a row, for instance...) And I will occasionally vary the pattern to be able to play a particular articulation.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
Okay, how about speed of movement? For example, doing DUD would surely be faster than DDD, as you suggest since you would have to travel two extra passes without hitting a note if I’m counting correctly.
I don’t mean to challenge you on this point, but just want to understand how the total distance traveled enters into the evaluation, after all, speed is a consideration.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by dfost
Re: Picking patterns
Using DUD DUD in jigs is definitely a tradeoff between speed and rhythm when you're first getting used to it. But I was "raised"to believe that rhythm is more important than speed. And the ability to play jigs at speed with that pattern comes with time, as you get used to it.
The place where you might get 3 down strokes in a row would be doing a triplet on the down beat, for instance:
DUD (dud)D DUD... You get used to that after a while. But it can be difficult to pull off at a high speed. So that might be a place where I would vary my pattern for a second, or maybe drop a note, which can be used to give a different emphasis to the articulation...
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
One other thing I wonder about is that a downstroke is believed to sound different than an upstroke... Why? Does it matter for a fiddler whether their bow is on the upstroke rather than a downstroke?
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by dfost
Re: Picking patterns
With a pick (plectrum), downstrokes have the mass of the thumb on top of the pick to "oomph" the striking motion. Good pickers tend to work on exaggerating the up picks until they can make them sound more or less the same, but it actual playing, down picks are heavier.
And the reason for this answers--at least if I understand them--your queries here: down picks fall *on* the beats.
In a reel |1234 1234| you want all the 1s and 3s to be picked with down picks because that's where the natural accent of the rhythm and form fall. The up picks happen on 2s and 4s.
Same for jigs |123 123| and slip jigs |123 123 123| ... you want the down picks to take care of the 1s, and to a lesser but significant degree, the 3s, while the "2" notes are appropriately less emphasized, thanks to up picks.
If you do something other than this, the music tends to sound funny--you lose the emphasis on the beats, and it can interfere with a sense of flow.
That said, "exceptions are the norm."
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
The picking really doesn't get all that complicated in this music (say, compared to cross and sweep picking used in Bluegrass and some Rock).
But there are some ideas worth woodshedding on, or using for warm ups.
There are two ways to pick alternating (any pair of) adjacent strings:
DOWN on the lower pitched string, UP on the higher pitched string (e.g. DOWN on A, UP on E)
Or:
DOWN on the higher, UP on the lower (e.g., DOWN on e, UP on A)
If you do this, you'll notice that in the first case, your picks always ends up on the "outside" of the pair of strings, and in the second case, your pick always ends up on the "inside" of the pair of strings.
Also, the note that follows a quarter note is almost always picked in the same direction of that previous quarter note. E.g., a down-picked 1/4 is followed by a down-picked note (regardless of whether it is a 1/4 or 1/8. etc.), and an up-picked quarter is followed by an up-picked note. Again, this is to keep the downs on the beats, and the ups between.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
Speed of picking isn't actually very important. You're moving in 1/8 notes, so even at a pretty quick tempo, you're not moving all that fast. The special case is the triplet, which is a stereotyped movement, a reflex - not a true triplet! - and is therefore fired as a single impulse.
To play 1/64 runs in rock and roll guitar-hero style, I suppose you'd need to develop all sorts of picking patterns. I wouldn't know, I've never been interested in trying to do that, but I'm told it's the case. In trad music, you're just not playing that fast, and never in that unrelieved barrage style, so speed won't fly as an argument for picking patterns.
As for the matter of emphasis... much as I hate to dispute with the redoubtable but dubiously-named "Miss Lonelyhearts", I've always worked on the assumption that a good right hand technique should be capable of playing a downbeat on an upstroke or vice versa, and I find there's little difficulty in achieving this, without anything "funny" in the sound.
This is greatly to be desired, since it frees you up from the strict patterns, which tend to lock the tune into a fairly metronomic pattern, much to the detriment of the swing.
I suppose it's true that there's a maximal emphasis possible on the downstrokes that you can't get on the upstrokes, but you shouldn't be out at the edge in normal playing - save that for emphasis when it's needed.
I wish I had a carefully worked-out science of picking to share with you, but there are a few considerations I can come up with that seem relevant.
- Every stroke sets up the next. You should be thinking ahead to the next breath point, and setting yourself up for any triplets you're going to need.
- If you aren't thinking of breath when you're picking a tune, stop, learn the tune on the pennywhistle, and then come back to it on guitar. A whistle player is forced to think of phrasing, since they have a finite stream of air before they fall over, and they have to find a place where the tune can breathe. A guitar player, not bound by this physiological limitation, has to make a conscious decision to think about phrasing, or they sound like a robot.
- Don't pick every note. Your left hand can do a lot of the work for you, especially coming off a note. In Kitty's Rambles - I keep thinking of examples in that tune - I typically play the first two bars on about five strokes of the pick, if you cound a triplet as one stroke, as I do. The first descending half-measure gets a downstroke. The second half-measure gets a down and an up on the A, to set you up for the triplet in the third half-measure, and an upstroke on the fourth half-measure.
I might play it differently, and I often do, but that's about my most typical way. In reels, I suppose, I pick a lot more of the notes, but if there's a lazy way to play it that sounds good, I'll go for the lazy way.
- Since I'm thinking of jigs, always be aware of whether you're going to play a given half-measure as straight or detached. By "detached" I mean that the first beat of the three is in one phrase, and the third or the second and third are pickups to the next phrase. The first example that springs to mind is in My Darling the Sheep, where you have this:
fdd cAA |BAG A-G|FAA def| gfg eag|fdd cAA ...
If you play the fourth bar in straight dud dud patterns you're liable to miss the fact that one phrase ends on the |gfg e ... and another begins with the ... ag|fdd cAA ....
This actually is just a part of the breathing business, I suppose, but still: always be aware that the tune doesn't care about the bar lines overmuch, and your picking shouldn't either. Picking patterns tend to anchor themselves to bar lines, and when they do, they produce unfortunate results.
- This is idiosyncratic, and gets away from the right hand, but it's good advice anyway: it's almost always better to play the c natural on the G string than to try to make it work on the B. There are exceptions, of course, but if you always try the fifth-fret c natural first, you're likely to find more comfortable fingerings. It does make a lot of right hand work easier, since you can let the left hand take care of the weak B natural in an ascending run. You can't do that if you're trying to hit it on the open string.
- Obviously, there aren't any hard and fast rules here, but it comes down to learning the tune, and finding the way the tune goes on your guitar. That way each tune sounds like itself, rather than sounding like another run-through of your favorite pattern.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Picking patterns
HOLY CRAP!!
Just feel it out and you'll pick OK. It's not that complicated - let's not make it so.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Dennis Regan
Re: Picking patterns
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant to say...
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Picking patterns
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
ask the bodhran player
hornpipes are nice dduudduudduu
I could go on
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by mcknowall
Re: Picking patterns
Toohey's Old is great.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Picking patterns
oh, ok then, this is how you do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgCpkduEQ7U&NR=1
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Picking patterns
Interesting thread ... also on the level of "how technical can you get?" Basically I´d agree with Dennis Regan ("Just feel it out and you´ll pick OK!") I think this is probably the way experienced, "real" (??) trad players would approach it. Myself has a background in bluegrass/old time guitar and banjo - 5string, that is - and recently I began to experiment around with flatpicking Irish tunes on guitar and tenor, working my way through O´Neill and tunes I found here, Kevin Burke tunes like "Across the Black River" , amongst others. Listening to lots of Irish tenor players and the way they flatpick tunes, I believe I found one difference to the way bluegrassers approach a tune - and I think this applies to tenor banjo as well as to guitar: the Irish players tend to play each note separately whereas the bluegrass pickers tend to get many notes by way of hammering-ons and pull-offs. This gives their respective interpretations a different `atmosphere´ (for want of a better word) - makes them swing more - and of course has consequences for the pick movements: depending on how much you use these techniques, and where in a tune, your movements are never in a strict pattern, you emphasize differently - and so give the tune a character of its own- or of your own.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by alexweger
Re: Picking patterns
I'm certainly no expert but i always find DUD DUD best for jigs but its only a base and ya don't religously stick to it. I'ver seen people drastically improve by adopting this pattern but only those who were struggling before. Thing is many players don't use this and still achieve great results. The only reason to change is if you're struggling to play tunes effectivley. If you're doing fine and the rhythm is good don't change a thing.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by FergalOH
Re: Picking patterns
Good points from both perspectives on this. Dennis' point about just feeling it out is an approach that will work for a lot of people.
For me, that was the approach I started with. But I was coming at it from a completely outside perspective. I didn't grow up around the music. So when I was first learning, I hadn't internalized the jig rhythm, and hadn't thought about the subtleties of the difference in length of the three notes. I was learning my instrument at the same time I was becoming familiar with the music. So my jigs got a LOT better when someone (ahem - ML) got me into picking DUD DUD. That was a simple thing that helped me approximate the proper rhythm before I had really internalized what it should actually sound like.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
These picking patterns exploit the natural strong/weak accent of the downstroke and upstroke respectively much like left/right sticking in snare drumming. You can certainly train yourself to hit either way with a stronger or weaker attack but this gives a pretty good result right away.
I've heard a couple of people play with that "constant rhythm" approach and I really thought their playing was a sloppy, inarticulate mess. How much of the problem was the approach and how much was them I can't really say. Their primary concern was volume and unfortunately, at that they excelled. They were in fact primarily bluegrass players and I don't think they really "get" Irish music very well.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Steve L
Re: Picking patterns
Just to clarify a few points....
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you be this analytical when you *play.* I can type ad nauseum about picking (and bowing), etc., because I *teach* it, not because I think this way all the time. And when someone asks a question about technique, it doesn't do them much good to reply, "just do it." If that approach was working for them, they probably wouldn't have asked for some advice....
That said, nearly all of the best players I've ever met know precisely what they're doing and can dissect it to the smallest level. Again--not that they do this when playing. But they've focused on the subtleties and thought through them at some point. That's in part what makes their playing so good.
And while it's generally true that you're better off if you can do anything with an up pick that you can do with a down, the vast majority of pickers stick the majority of the time to down on the beats, up on the "ands" in between. It's the most important aspect of picking for anyone struggling at the outset to get their picking to sound right.
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
Why do I get the feeling that most of us who are the most talkative on this board have done some time teaching?
I suppose the gentle lady from Montana and I will have to disagree on the matter of learning picking patterns. I find the advantages to be far outweighed by the bad habits they instill.
But I think the arguments for both views have been made well, and there's no point in banging on about it further - until the next time it comes up...
# Posted on January 23rd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Picking patterns
Hmmm, well I don't think of what I do as "picking patterns" at all, just playing the beats with down picks, most of the time. And that doesn't impede how I phrase across bar lines or tie pick up notes to the following phrase. But maybe that's because fiddle is my main instrument--phrasing is very variable and fluid with a bow.
Odd though, Jon, that you seemed to focus on picking these tunes on guitar, when the OP was asking about tenor banjo and mandolin. And there are significant differences in how I'd approach the tunes among those instruments. Neither banjo or mando have the sustain that a guitar has, so hammer-ons and pull-offs, (especially several of either strung together) aren't as typical on banjo and mando. At least in this music.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
I think if you learn the music on a more traditional instrument, it's not surprising that you learn a more traditional phrasing. If you learn them originally on a plectrum instrument, the patterns tend to be more rigid.
"...you seemed to focus on picking these tunes on guitar, when the OP was asking about tenor banjo and mandolin...Neither banjo or mando have the sustain that a guitar has, so hammer-ons and pull-offs, aren't as typical on banjo and mando."
Oh, I use the same techniques on all three, they work fine for me. But that's just how I play them. A strong left hand and a lazy right hand. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Picking patterns
Ah, there's the difference. I have a beat up, decrepit left hand, and a right hand that's dead all together.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
I have NEVER heard such complications and pontifications in all my life!!!
We're talking about playing along to some tunes, for God's sake.
It's not rocket science.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Dennis Regan
Re: Picking patterns
I don't know about that, Dennis, have you read some of the threads on bowing patterns?!
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Rob
Re: Picking patterns
Some people are more analytical than others. I really benefit from thinking about this music on an intellectual level, even though it's not a conscious thought process while I'm actually playing. I have internalized the picking patterns, the same way that I have internalized the rhythms.
To each his own...
But other people might find over-analyzation of this stuff to be detrimental, who knows
But just because analyzing it to this level seems superfluous to you, Dennis, doesn't mean that it's not useful for other people!
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
I'm with Dennis. I never give it a thought, although I've played stringed instruments for almost 40 years. For kicks, after seeing this thread I tried to track my picking patterns on a few tunes and there is absolutely no standard pattern and having one would seem to hinder smooth, quick playing. It would also impead the ability to easily ornament and maintain rhythm.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by shanty
Re: Picking patterns
"I never give it a thought, although I've played stringed instruments for almost 40 years."
In 35 years of teaching people to play stringed instruments, my experience is that the above comment is almost always followed by either (1) decent picking that plays down on the beats and up between (but the player has just "never given it a thought"), or (2) inept picking that's hindering the player--they can't actually play smoothly, in time, and up to speed.
Geez, there's not much of a "pattern" here. The pick goes up, it goes down (on the beats, nearly always). Unless you're doing lots of cross picking and sweeps, it's very straightforward. And if you *don't* use cross picking and sweeps, then you're missing some fun tools from your kit.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
P.S. Dennis, actually, we're not talking about "playing along to some tunes." Or at least I'm not. I'm talking about picking the tunes themselves. (Not that playing back up is necessarily uncomplicated.)
And if you think this thread overanalyzes picking, then don't ever get a tutorial by Gerry O'Connor, Enda Scahill, Mike Marshall, or Chris Thile.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
OK, Miss L - playing along to some tunes or playing the tunes themselves - what you do is play. Thats it. No need for formalised picking patterns.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Dennis Regan
Re: Picking patterns
If a player uses a particular technique (or lack thereof) to make the music sound good, why should it matter how much analytical thought they put into it? I don't think that anyone is trying to say that using a picking pattern is the only way to do it.
Keep in mind, though, that there is a big difference between someone who grew up in Ireland, exposed to the music since childhood, and someone who grew up listening to Rock and Roll in, say, Detroit. And there's a difference between someone who has been playing for 40 years, and someone who is just starting out.
I would recommend that if someone is reading this debate, looking for ideas about how to learn, they should try to take both points of view into account, and see what there is to be learned from it.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
I just don't get what's so startling with the notion of *thinking* about how you pick. God forbid we use our brains....
Years ago, I learned to play by "just playing," and after a few years, realized that I was hearing things in better musician's playing that I couldn't do. And I wanted to do those things. So I started sussing out what they did to get specific sounds--a certain pulse, a twiddly bit I hadn't heard before, etc. Some of it came readily enough, but some--like cross picking on mando and guitar, or pedal bowing on fiddle--I had to understand *before* I could even decipher what to do with the pick or bow. I don't see how learning some specific concepts is harmful to one's progress as a player.
I regularly run into fiddlers who don't have a clue how to do pedal (aka figure-eight) bowing, which is a super pulsey way to play certain phrases that are everywhere in Irish traditional reels (and in old time and bluegrass). Think: |E2 BE dEBE| in Drowsy Maggie or the Tap Room. The bowing "pattern" is counterintuitive--it involves slurring three eighth notes on an up bow while crossing from a low string, up to a higher string, and then back to the string you started on. Few people would ever do that accidentally, but when you figure it out (or someone teaches it to you), it's one of the most rhythmically expressive bowing options a fiddler can have in hand. Without it, those sorts of phases sound choppy, or worse.
I learned pedal bowing from a former Bothy Band fiddler, who'd clearly thought about his bowing and could articulate it to pass the idea along. Shocking, eh?
Besides, if "just play" worked for everyone, everyone would make beautiful music and we'd all be brilliant, eh?
I've never heard Dennis or Shanty play, and they very well may be wonderful pickers. But for every person I've run into with the "just play" attitude who *can* play well, there are hundreds who play with little to no feel for the rhythm, timing, and flow of the music. That works to my benefit, since I earn a living teaching those hundreds how to "just play" by helping them understand the basics and the further expressive options available.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
Any examples?
"I regularly run into fiddlers who don't have a clue how to do pedal (aka figure-eight) bowing."
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Ben Steen
Beg pardon
I misread the sentence. Carry on.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
former Bothy Band member? I thought he didn't realize he was pedal bowing. I must have that wrong as well.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Picking patterns
ML-I don't even know what the term 'cross picking' means. If it means jumping from one string to the other -
I do a lot of that. And I'm not 'startled' that some people think about 'picking patterns'--just interested because I've never given it a thought and have never discussed it in my entire musicle life. It's interesting to me. I'm not cutting it down, just like all the dots arguments - you use what ever you need to make the best music you can.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by shanty
Re: Picking patterns
I may be misunderstanding some of this, but if emphasis of some notes relative to others, such as by picking up rather than picking down, can make the music sound more authentic, how does this work with pipers or box players?
I don't play either instrument, so I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like players of these instruments (and probably some other instruments as well) would have much control over note-to-note volume or attack.
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by dfost
Re: Picking patterns
When I talk about cross picking, I'm usually talking about picking in the opposite direction of your hand movement. So, for instance, if you're moving from the A course to the D course, your hand is moving upward, but you might do a Down stroke pick. And if you think about picking the open strings: DADA DADA with a DUDU DUDU motion, you're picking the "outside" of the strings...
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
Thanks reverend, yes I do that a lot in my playing. Now I know what it's called Maybe I can be learned yet!
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by shanty
Re: Picking patterns
When I asked a teacher to show me how to pick tunes on a guitar, he suggested that I start with DUDU for reels and DUDDUD for jigs, and keep to that rigidly, even when it didn't seem right because of which way the melody was moving, and which string I was going to next. He also suggested playing the tune as a string of eighth notes, replacing quarter notes with two eighth notes, dotted quarters with three eighth notes, etc. But then he said that, after I got good at the rigid approach in my practice exercises, I would know when to depart from it, and change picking directions to fit the tune, which string I was moving to, etc. For real playing, he recommended a much more flexible approach.
In the end, however, I decided to stick to strumming on my guitar, and to go to playing the whistle or accordion when it came time for the melody!
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Picking patterns
Keep in mind that it's not just volume that we're talking about here. We're also talking about note lengths. So in a jig, of the three notes, the first one is the longest, the second one is the shortest, and the third one is longer, but not as long as the first one. (This is a generalization, of course). A DUD DUD picking pattern plays well into that rhythm.
I don't play any of the wind instruments (other than a little whistle), and I really admire people who play them well, because the rhythm has to be so much more internalized. When you use a picking pattern on a plectrum instrument, some of the rhythm lives within the repetitive physical movement of your right hand. It's almost as if your hand is dancing to the music, and feeling the rhythm, the same way that you would tap your feet...
# Posted on January 24th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
Flute playing isn't necessarily so introspective (internalized). The wind dances beneath your fingers. This is why I prefer open-holed instruments. ;)
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Picking patterns
I'll buy that, Random.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
My use of "cross picking" refers to playing across three or more strings, in sequence. It's common in bluegrass, and flatipicking ragtime guitar, simulating a Scrugg's style roll on banjo. A typical cross picking pattern on mandolin, for example, would be picking DUDUDUDU on the strings in the following order: |DAE DAE DA|DAE DAE DA|etc.
This gives you an arpeggio across any chord, and you can move left hand fingers to pull in melody notes. Some players use different pick directions for that same string sequence, and there are lots of other cross picking patterns for various effects and time signatures.
(To hear an example, search YouTube for Beaumont Rag on guitar. Or just click here and listen at least through the B part of the tune.)
Sorry Shanty. I guess I just get tired of how often some people on this forum laugh at any attempts to discuss the finer points of playing the music. Since we can't actually play the music with each other here, we're left to typing away at it. Not near as satisfying, but it can still be interesting, edyufacational, and fun, eh?
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
I miss SoundLantern
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
With great respect ~
Miss Lonelyhearts try not to take it so much to heart. Peace of mind requires a bit of trust in peoples' better nature. I learned this from Zina Lee. ;)
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Picking patterns
Oh, I don't really take it to heart.
Trust in people's better nature? Yes, at first. But not after someone's declared faith in their own ignorance.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
'Trust in people's better nature? Yes, at first. But not after someone's declared faith in their own ignorance'
So...half the people on this post disagree with your theories about picking patterns and you get nasty? Why?
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by shanty
I only hope this helps
I think Kiparsky was on to something when he said educators tend to also be pontificators. The rest of us are sometimes left to feel like young students squirming in our wooden seats. Peace.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Picking patterns
Look, all I tried to do on this thread was respond to the OP by explaining my understanding of how to use a pick on some strings. It's not "formal" anything, and it's just my opinions, based on learning by "just playing," and then going back and figuring out what I was doing, what worked and what didn't, and then learning some more.
When other folks chime in ridiculing anything more thoughtful than "just play," it strikes me as championing ignorance over genuine learning and progress. Us humans do that all the time and it gets us no where. When I responded to random's point about people's better nature, I was exercising my curmudgeonly side, not pointing a finger at anyone specifically on this thread.
So I get a yellow card for responding to Dennis' baiting [his post: "I have NEVER heard such complications and pontifications in all my life!!!
We're talking about playing along to some tunes, for God's sake. It's not rocket science."]? Sorry again Shanty, but it sounded like you were jumping onto Dennis' bandwagon.
Maybe after 9 years on this forum, it wears thin when those of us with some experience--in both playing *and* explaining how to play--get called out for simply responding to requests for help from fellow musicians.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
It comes across like this:
OP: [types in a question on the mustard board, seeking specifics]
Mustard board member: [offers a response]
Eejit: [often using caps] JAYSUS! Look at all this typing, all these pixels on the screen! Yer all fools! Just play!
What do the eejits expect when they log in here? No words? No sense in discussing anything? Why are they here then?
I agree with the mantra that "If you want to play well, log off and go play." But I also play a ton of music five days a week giving lessons, and I play a lot on weekends, too. Is it silly to spend a fraction of that time thinking about all that activity and sharing ideas here? Would this forum be a better place if the "pontificators" left and the only answers were "HOLY CRAP! Just play!"???
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
I think Dennis's opinion is as valid as yours. Yours is certainly more thought out and informative for someone asking about picking patterns, however the OP asked for opinions and Dennis's opinion, like mine and, jon's, steve's, fergalOH's and, surprisingly, the OP's(" I confess that my personal bias is that every tune is different and you should find the phrasing and emphasis that fits your style while staying within the tradition") are no more or less "ignorant" than yours. They were, however, less wordy.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by shanty
Re: Picking patterns
Some picking, like DUD DUD is counter-intuitive at first for most of us and needs to be "learned" - most people will never get it by doing just what feels right.
Once you've learned it properly, you then have the freedom to use it when it feels right.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Bren
Re: Picking patterns
Shanty, I do mean "ignorant" and not "stupid."
And the OP didn't ask for opinions--he asked for "thoughts and recommendations."
I think opinions are "valid" only if they can be tested and found reasonable and well informed. So, no, not all opinions are valid, nor are they equal. Some opinions are invalid, in fact, because they're ill- or uninformed.
Besides, nothing I've posted contradicts the OP's notion of basing your playing on each tune's melody and phrasing, etc. Paying attention to the tune at that subtle level is what makes picking and bowing come alive. That sounds like a fairly thoughtful, or at least conscious, approach to playing, to me. In contrast to not thinking about picking throughout your 40 years of playing, or "just playing."
Funny--these threads about technique so often get derailed into debates about whether it's helpful or even allowable to think about and and explain technique. And that's what's tiresome, at least for those of us who actually enjoy an occasional conversation about something other than football, straying celebrities, or angst-riddled adolescents and their fragile, explosive, Hindenburgian egos (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23654).
You're right--I can be wordy, when it's called for. In responding to the OP, I think Mr. Kiparsky has me beat, though.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
I love this forum. Where else would you find Americans arguing about how to play an Italian instrument in an Irish music tradition? Hee hee.
Someone suggested that plectrum payers should learn the tunes on a whistle to understand the phrasing (dictated by breathing). I'm not sure about this. Perhaps another way of looking at this is that whistle players are actually constrained by breathing? Why should I transfer those constraints to another instrument? Amazingly enough, you don't have to be a whistle player to understand phrasing in this or any other type of music. There also seems to be an underlying suggestion on many discussions here that plectrum players, particularly guitarists, inherently lack any understanding of phrasing.
As for technique development not being important, well that's just a bit silly. The old DUD DUD debate is an interesting example. Personally I think it's a good idea to learn how to create the same tone and weight with both down and up strokes, and to choose (consciously or otherwise) how to apply them to your own phrasing or interpretaion. Perhaps the only way to do this properly is to consider technique. If I may be as bold as to make a couple of suggestions:
1. The way you grip the plectrum is crucial to gaining control on the down and upstrokes. If you hold the plectrum in the 'pencil' grip (between the tips of your index finger and thumb) you are at an immediate disadvantage. The pencil grip is an example of the 'just play' philosophy, as it is the most intuitive way to hold the pick. Learning other ways to grip the pick involves a consideration of techniques that seem counter-intuitive at first, but are unavoidable, in my opinion, if you want to gain more control over down and up strokes.
2. Another way to develop more control (and more fluid timing) is to think about the force you put into the pick. Instead of pushing down into downstrokes and pulling up into upstrokes, think about 'dropping' and 'lifting' instead. This is a subtle difference, but I think it reduces tension in the wrist and allows you more control in attack, pulse, accent and volume, all of which are very helpful when it comes to phrasing.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by McDermott
Re: Picking patterns
... " I confess that my personal bias is that every tune is different and you should find the phrasing and emphasis that fits your style while staying within the tradition" ...
FWIW, I totally agree with this statement. There are two different (albeit related) things being talked about here. Phrasing, articulation, and emphasis are probably the most important aspects of this music. But in some ways they're on a different layer than the underlying rhythm. While it's true that you're doing subtle manipulation of the rhythm as part of your phrasing, what makes it musically interesting is that you're varying it from a baseline "norm". The underlying rhythm is still there, and that's where I find the picking patterns to be useful. I don't play like a machine, but having an underlying structure to my hand motion helps keep everything under control, and that, in turn, allows me to put more mental energy into the subtleties of phrasing, articulation, and variation.
Oh crap... there I go analyzing things again
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Picking patterns
"Where else would you find Americans arguing about how to play an Italian instrument in an Irish music tradition?"
here of course: http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=43
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Bren
Re: Picking patterns
LOL, thanks, Joel, for the international perspective.
I'm interested in your two points--how to hold the pick, and dropping and lifting. I usually discourage my students from the "pencil" grip because I think it limits wrist range of motion and doesn't support the pick as well as when the pick is under the thumb and on the side of the curled index finger.
But where exactly do you hold the pick? I used to have it under the meat of the pad of my thumb, over the first knuckle (from the tip) of the index. But for mandolin, I'm tending more and more to carry the pick closer to under the knuckle of the thumb--in other words, more toward the ball of the thumb. It's a difference of a millimeter or two, but seems to increase my pick speed while remaining relaxed.
As for pushing and pulling vs. dropping and lifting, that makes perfect sense to me. Bluegrass mando player Mike Compton talks about "rubbing" the strings instead of slapping at them, to play more smoothly. And Chris Thile emphasizes how loose a hold you can have on the pick as it glides over the strings.
Still, it takes some modicum of force to pick through a double course of 40 or 26 gauge strings (as on a mandolin). I'd like to hear more about how dropping and lifting feels as you do it.
Thanks
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
Joel-if I read your third paragragh "and to choose (consciously or otherwise) how to apply them to your own phrasing or interpretaion" you are saying exactly what Dennis said, but again, using ten times the number of words to say it!
And don't forget to throw Africa into the mix of the international instruments-please don't forget the banjo!
Perhaps because whistle is my main instrument for playing tunes (although banjo is quickly rising to the top) I don't place a lot of importance on picking patterns.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by shanty
Re: Picking patterns
@ Miss Lonelyhearts
"... attempts to discuss the finer points of playing the music ..."
One can only go so far in discussion forums, or in audio, or even in video, in passing on the finer points of technique and interpretation, especially when dealing with the technique at a professional level. Useful general comments can be made in print about posture, breathing, relaxation, and the rest of it, which point the player in the right direction, but eventually the stage is reached when words, video, audio can't do the job. The only way to deal with this is face-to-face tuition with a teacher who can see and hear the problems, knows what causes them in an individual case, and has workable solutions which need to be demonstrated, again face-to-face. Such teachers are worth their weight in gold.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Picking patterns
lazyhound, I don't disagree, but I enjoy the challenge.
I get to teach loads of people every day face-to-face, and I well understand the advantages of that approach. But I also learn a lot about how to communicate this stuff by posting here, dealing with the constraints of explaining playing this music given nothing more than a keyboard and a screenful of pixels. More than once I've seen someone say, "You can't describe that in words," and after I've tried just that, people (llig, even!) have chimed in voicing thanks for the clear explanation.
That's the best we can do on this forum. Sure, go find a good in-person teacher. But there's no harm in asking here, and then trying out suggestions that seem thoughtful and based on experience.
Shanty, you're being either disingenuous or dim. What Joel posted is nearly a complete about-face from what Dennis said--when you read it in the context of that whole paragraph. Joel is *not* saying "Just play!" He's advocating that you "consider technique." I read that as putting some conscious thought into it. Given the examples he provides, I'd say he means fairly specific, concentrated thought.
If you don't like reading so many words on this topic, why are you bothering with it?
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Picking patterns
If I had had the chance to read a discussion like this twenty years ago it would have saved me a lot of grief later when having got into the habit of picking one way I realised it was not doing it for me and another way would have been better. A teacher might have, and a book did, only tought it one way.
I am hoping that laying the mandolin aside for a couple of years, during which time I have learned a lot more about the music, will have given my brain chance to do a partial reset ready for some relearning.
# Posted on January 25th 2010 by David50
Re: Picking patterns
BTW, my post was not "baiting" as has been suggested above. I was simply stating my opinion on what had been said before.
"Baiting" implies attempting to get a response - I couldn't care less if I got a response or not.
I wanted to give my opinion on this whole picking pattern thing.
End of story.
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Dennis Regan
Re: Picking patterns
More smileys might've helped, then, Dennis. When you shout (all caps) and call other people's posts "pontificating" it's hard to hear whether you're taking a light-hearted jab or just nastily trolling.
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
I prefer ;)
What is wrong with the term pontification? I learned it from CPT. (informing me to keep trying, "Dow loves an opportunity to pontificate")
I had to look carefully to find the CAPS ~ 1 word + 3 exclamation points?
THAT IS BAITING!*!*!
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
That is to say I am baiting by throwing your works back at you, Will. Not saying Will is doing the baiting by asking Dennis to explain his intent in using all caps.
Pardon me for any misunderstanding. ;)
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
~
throwing your words back at you . . . these pesky keyboards.
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Picking patterns
Random, Dow and I were long-time friends here when I accused him of pontificating. He knew I was slagging him in good humor. With Dennis, he did the caps shout twice, offered nothing genuinely helpful, and seemed to be against the whole notion of thinking about picking.
Come to find out he was just stirring the pot a bit.
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Will Harmon
Thanks Will. I have used that word ever since the day I saw it. Never took the time to actually look it up. My bad! I learned a big lesson today.
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Picking patterns
Joel, I never meant to suggest one must play the whistle to understand the tunes. & if guitar strings & a pick work for you that's grand. This is my soul music & I hear the ebb & flow, the pulse, what ever it is with whistle. I hope I'm not constrained, but neither should I say you are short of picking up that little Generation; or whatever you have in your guitar case. Leave it be. You're doing fine on guitar.
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Picking patterns
"In responding to the OP, I think Mr. Kiparsky has me beat, though."
As regards the matter of excessive verbosity, I must confess and avow that I do have a bit of a tendency in that general direction, as it were. It might even be said that I tend to go on somewhat, to enlarge on the subject, whether such voluminous contributions to the overall discourse are in fact warranted or not. In fact, It's been said, and I don't dispute it, that once I commence to opine on a matter, it's more or less a given that I'll be at it until the cows return to their bed of nocturnal slumber.
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Picking patterns
"Someone suggested that plectrum payers should learn the tunes on a whistle to understand the phrasing (dictated by breathing)....Perhaps another way of looking at this is that whistle players are actually constrained by breathing? Why should I transfer those constraints to another instrument? Amazingly enough, you don't have to be a whistle player to understand phrasing in this or any other type of music. "
That was me, and yes, I think that whistle players are constrained in a very beneficial way by the need to breathe. And I think that this is a constraint that the beginning guitarist especially could benefit from, if they have trouble with their phrasing. As I said in the posting you're referring to, if you're having trouble with your phrasing, learning the tunes on the whistle is a good way to force yourself to think about it.
Of course I wouldn't say that you have to be a whistle player to understand phrasing, but if you're having trouble with your phrasing, learning the tunes on a whistle is probably the quickest way to get yourself straightened out.
"...you don't have to be a whistle player to understand phrasing in this or any other type of music. There also seems to be an underlying suggestion on many discussions here that plectrum players, particularly guitarists, inherently lack any understanding of phrasing."
I wasn't thinking of anything but flatpicking reels, but in fact it's quite a common complaint about guitar players in jazz - they don't know how to breathe. This is especially true of the ones who spend a lot of time shedding on technique and less time listening to horn players. There are plenty of honorable exceptions - Grant Green and Wes Montgomery, or Bill Frisell today, come to mind - but there are a lot of guys who play like they're getting paid by the note, and they can't wait to get their check.
Trust me, when I was younger, I spent a lot of time with jazz musicians, and I heard all about the guitarists from all the other players.
I wouldn't say it's an inherent lack of understanding, since there are many guitarists in all genres who play with taste and musicality, but it does seem to be at least an occupational hazard.
# Posted on January 26th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Picking patterns
"With Dennis, he did the caps shout twice, offered nothing genuinely helpful, and seemed to be against the whole notion of thinking about picking."
- Miss L.
I'm against making a big deal about "picking". I offered nothing genuinely helpful???? I said feel it out - this is the most helpful suggestion I can give. Sorry.
# Posted on January 30th 2010 by Dennis Regan