Okay, so I've been playing folk music for years, but I've also had 14 years of classical training that has beaten a lot of stuff out of my playing, and now I'm trying to put it back in. = )
Does anyone know of any books or dvds that go through any ornamentation aspects of tunes either for fiddle, whistle, or flute? I'm a diploma level violinist and flautist so I'm looking for something to learn the finer "twiddles" off!
Also, anyone know a good place to get a cheap, basic wooden flute? At the moment I play a silver one.
Grey Larsen's book, "The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and In Whistle" may be just what you're looking for. Has extensive treatment of ornamentation. See http://www.greylarsen.com/store/books.php for info and excerpts.
Grey Larsen's book is very definitely worth buying - I haven't seen anything else that even comes close in terms of explaining ornamention for whistle and flute.
Have you considered an Irish-style flute made from polymer/delrin? The M&E, Seery and Forbes flutes all seem to have their fans. I'm a newcomer to the flute so I can't speak too much on the topic. I'm sure someone more informed will chime in! There have been heaps of past discussions on affordable flutes, so searching this site would be a good start.
get yourself on you tube. There are tons of free tutor s. I just did a search for flute , fiddle , whistle ornamentation and got a right number of videos .↲Also, listen to players as much as you can. Especially live , you can really see and feel how ornamentation is a changing ,living thing that way.
Not too far out of the beginner stage myself, this is what I've
learned about it in the last four years.
The tutors give you only a rough idea if there's no recording to
go along with it. Sometimes what people actually play contradicts what they *say* they're doing. This includes live workshops!
You can learn something from all the ITM instruments. From
accordion and concertina you can get some really 'crunchy'
effects that inspire flute and fiddle playing.
Some people say you cannot separate the 'twiddles' from the
tune; that they are all one. Not everyone agrees. Maybe it's
semantics. The twiddles should sound as though they are
part of it, not stuck in at random.
There's a grey area between ornamentation and melodic
variation; you can't always put a twiddle in one box or the other.
Also the twiddles are over-rated. How you play your quavers/eighth notes and the phrasing are what really count.
The twiddles always sound bad if they are not in rhythm
and if the underlying rhythm is no good.
Don't know why Hup, there's no ornamentation in Irish music that I know about that isn't used by Scottish musicians as well.
Kat, here's a series of whistle lessons by Fr Ryan Duns, you can skip the early ones if you want as they are for total beginners but he goes on to clearly teach rolls etc in later episodes. Most of the movements transfer to the fiddle as well.
Good wooden flutes are seldom cheap, cheap wooden flutes are seldom good. It all depends on how cheap.
If you ARE on the cheap, perhaps you night go with the delrin/polypenco instruments. You might get a better flute for the same money, and nearly indestructible.
Bogman you cannot do ornaments in isolation. If you want to
sound "Scottish" (or Irish or Breton, etc., Quebeqois etc)
you need to learn them in context.
pipes, flute, & whistle ornamentation begins with cuts & taps. from there it is combination, variation, nuance, & context. Though the basics actually are simple articulations.
as for context, consider the playing of a dance tunes. slip jig, an dro, strathspey, barndance, bastringue? set dancers, step dancers, or a session w/out dancers? so is ornamention of jigs & reels in context? Is a Scottish reel actually an Irish hornpipe? All of this is important, though it gets very complicated very fast if you forget to enjoy the session.
isolation does sound barren. how about a wee bit of woodshedding? Cranns usually aren't so good when you 1st try them. But, if you're that good ~ go for it, without the bother of a woodshed.
Kat, I love that you've listened to Aly Bain & Phil Cunningham. Hopefully Phil & Johnny as well. I too have silver flutes & am hoping, next month, to order one w/out the keys. Right now I'm set on a Delrin; http://www.forbesflutes.com/
Sorry hup, but you are mistaken. Ornaments can be, and are often practiced in isolation, this is not debatable, its fact.
They are ornamental figures which IMO are best learn't with good instruction, separately from the tunes we find them in,especially the more complicated figures.
'They are ornamental figures which IMO are best learn't with good instruction, separately from the tunes we find them in,especially the more complicated figures.'
This utterly and completely explains, Jig, why you have never had a clue about the music.
Sorry to skip back but just noticed Hup's post.
I said nothing about playing ornaments in isolation, all I said was that you won't find common ornaments in Irish music that Scottish musicians don't use. Anyway, Kat didn't say she wanted to learn Scottish music.
That's a very crunchy tune. Whether the title reflects its crunchiness probably depends on how you like other things not appropriate to discuss on a family website.
LMAO!! Hell, I play everything in isolation. I haven't been to an Irish session in 4 or 5 years and only one mandolin/banjo seminar back in early November.
On a more serious note, I don't think it's wrong for beginners to practice crans and rolls and things outwith tunes. Not for the reasons jig says, but sometimes it's just easier to train your fingers in the correct technique when you're not thinking about a thousand other things like how the tune goes. I don't think of a cran as a separate thing from the tune I'm playing it in -- a lot tunes with prodigious crans (i.e. the one mentioned above by Random notes) sound like crap if you don't play the cran. So you don't think of crans as separate from the tunes. But it can pay off to sit there for, well, a long time, and play zillions of crans on their own so your crans don't suck.
There actually are a few devices and products on the market specifically designed to help traditional Irish musicians develop technique and ornamentation. Here’s probably the most useful:
Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Okay, so I've been playing folk music for years, but I've also had 14 years of classical training that has beaten a lot of stuff out of my playing, and now I'm trying to put it back in. = )
Does anyone know of any books or dvds that go through any ornamentation aspects of tunes either for fiddle, whistle, or flute? I'm a diploma level violinist and flautist so I'm looking for something to learn the finer "twiddles" off!
Also, anyone know a good place to get a cheap, basic wooden flute? At the moment I play a silver one.
Thanks!
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by KatHurdley
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Grey Larsen's book, "The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and In Whistle" may be just what you're looking for. Has extensive treatment of ornamentation. See http://www.greylarsen.com/store/books.php for info and excerpts.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by boxist
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Grey Larsen's book is very definitely worth buying - I haven't seen anything else that even comes close in terms of explaining ornamention for whistle and flute.
Have you considered an Irish-style flute made from polymer/delrin? The M&E, Seery and Forbes flutes all seem to have their fans. I'm a newcomer to the flute so I can't speak too much on the topic. I'm sure someone more informed will chime in! There have been heaps of past discussions on affordable flutes, so searching this site would be a good start.
Best of luck in your quest
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Pat Mustard
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
get yourself on you tube. There are tons of free tutor s. I just did a search for flute , fiddle , whistle ornamentation and got a right number of videos .↲Also, listen to players as much as you can. Especially live , you can really see and feel how ornamentation is a changing ,living thing that way.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by richrua
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Not too far out of the beginner stage myself, this is what I've
learned about it in the last four years.
The tutors give you only a rough idea if there's no recording to
go along with it. Sometimes what people actually play contradicts what they *say* they're doing. This includes live workshops!
You can learn something from all the ITM instruments. From
accordion and concertina you can get some really 'crunchy'
effects that inspire flute and fiddle playing.
Some people say you cannot separate the 'twiddles' from the
tune; that they are all one. Not everyone agrees. Maybe it's
semantics. The twiddles should sound as though they are
part of it, not stuck in at random.
There's a grey area between ornamentation and melodic
variation; you can't always put a twiddle in one box or the other.
Also the twiddles are over-rated. How you play your quavers/eighth notes and the phrasing are what really count.
The twiddles always sound bad if they are not in rhythm
and if the underlying rhythm is no good.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Hup
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
From your biog, you are coming from a Scottish music background.
If you want to play Scottish music, better get some advice from
Scottish musicians.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Hup
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Don't know why Hup, there's no ornamentation in Irish music that I know about that isn't used by Scottish musicians as well.
Kat, here's a series of whistle lessons by Fr Ryan Duns, you can skip the early ones if you want as they are for total beginners but he goes on to clearly teach rolls etc in later episodes. Most of the movements transfer to the fiddle as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1CQqbT0bIw&feature=related
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by bogman
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Re. the flute -
Good wooden flutes are seldom cheap, cheap wooden flutes are seldom good. It all depends on how cheap.
If you ARE on the cheap, perhaps you night go with the delrin/polypenco instruments. You might get a better flute for the same money, and nearly indestructible.
My two cents.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Piece
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Bogman you cannot do ornaments in isolation. If you want to
sound "Scottish" (or Irish or Breton, etc., Quebeqois etc)
you need to learn them in context.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Hup
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
pipes, flute, & whistle ornamentation begins with cuts & taps. from there it is combination, variation, nuance, & context. Though the basics actually are simple articulations.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
as for context, consider the playing of a dance tunes. slip jig, an dro, strathspey, barndance, bastringue? set dancers, step dancers, or a session w/out dancers? so is ornamention of jigs & reels in context? Is a Scottish reel actually an Irish hornpipe? All of this is important, though it gets very complicated very fast if you forget to enjoy the session.
isolation does sound barren. how about a wee bit of woodshedding? Cranns usually aren't so good when you 1st try them. But, if you're that good ~ go for it, without the bother of a woodshed.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Kat, I love that you've listened to Aly Bain & Phil Cunningham. Hopefully Phil & Johnny as well. I too have silver flutes & am hoping, next month, to order one w/out the keys. Right now I'm set on a Delrin;
http://www.forbesflutes.com/
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Terry McGee, are you around?
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Sorry hup, but you are mistaken. Ornaments can be, and are often practiced in isolation, this is not debatable, its fact.
They are ornamental figures which IMO are best learn't with good instruction, separately from the tunes we find them in,especially the more complicated figures.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
'They are ornamental figures which IMO are best learn't with good instruction, separately from the tunes we find them in,especially the more complicated figures.'
This utterly and completely explains, Jig, why you have never had a clue about the music.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Sorry to skip back but just noticed Hup's post.
I said nothing about playing ornaments in isolation, all I said was that you won't find common ornaments in Irish music that Scottish musicians don't use. Anyway, Kat didn't say she wanted to learn Scottish music.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by bogman
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
I'm still waiting for an example of crunchy effects learned from box players & then performed on flute. Is it stacatto? ;)
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Staccato
I looked it up (sp) after hitting post.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
I prefer my ornaments crunchy. Otherwise they are sort of gooey and gross. Who wants a roll that is like a wet noodle?
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
There is that one slip jig which Liam O'Flynn plays with "Kid on the Mountain" It's crunchy, but you wouldn't know it from the title.
My vacation seems to have ended too soon.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
That's a very crunchy tune. Whether the title reflects its crunchiness probably depends on how you like other things not appropriate to discuss on a family website.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
LMAO!! Hell, I play everything in isolation. I haven't been to an Irish session in 4 or 5 years and only one mandolin/banjo seminar back in early November.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Fishmonger
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
On a more serious note, I don't think it's wrong for beginners to practice crans and rolls and things outwith tunes. Not for the reasons jig says, but sometimes it's just easier to train your fingers in the correct technique when you're not thinking about a thousand other things like how the tune goes. I don't think of a cran as a separate thing from the tune I'm playing it in -- a lot tunes with prodigious crans (i.e. the one mentioned above by Random notes) sound like crap if you don't play the cran. So you don't think of crans as separate from the tunes. But it can pay off to sit there for, well, a long time, and play zillions of crans on their own so your crans don't suck.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Crunchy crans? What is this discussion about--granola bars or something?
# Posted on January 22nd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
There actually are a few devices and products on the market specifically designed to help traditional Irish musicians develop technique and ornamentation. Here’s probably the most useful:
http://drshoe.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/brannock_device.gif
Then, of course, there are the musical instruments themselves.
# Posted on January 22nd 2010 by fidkid
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
This is the device I used to learn to play the music:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2117/2081948552_b790caf37b.jpg?v=0
# Posted on January 22nd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
I still use that all the time Miss L. And an excellent tool it is as well!
TSS, you're absolutely right. I would be very surprised if there are pipers who don't practice crans or other movements outwith the tunes.
# Posted on January 22nd 2010 by bogman
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Or didn't.....depending.....
# Posted on January 22nd 2010 by bogman
Re: Any good ornamentation teaching devices?
Will's device is invaluable. Couldn't have gotten this far without it.
# Posted on January 22nd 2010 by DrSilverSpear