Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Hi,
I've searched in older discussions about putting tunes into sets and it was really usefull. I got a general idea about going from D to G and then A and other rules. But I'm wondering, if you have any other general "rules" about where mixolydian and dorian modes should be placed. E.g. A mixolydian looks a bit like D major, only it sounds totally different, so should I place an Amix tune as a classical D or A tune in the set? If you know what I mean... I usually play 2 Dmix jigs together (Blarney Pilgrim and Banish Misfortune), because it sounds interesting to me, but I'm sure you'll come up with better ideas I know what the modes are, just don't know what to do with them in ITM.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
If my limited an sessionless experince counts...
As for Dorian, I think C/C# are so unstable (some tunes have both) that it doesn't matter if a tune is E Aeolian or Dorian. Just learning my first Mixo tune , but maybe it's the same with this mode.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I can see this thread running and running without ever getting a better response than TSS's above.
Oh, and on the specifics, you'll find that there are different opinions as to what key/mode Blarney Pilgrim is in. Not that it matters. But I still wouldn't put Banish Misfortune after it. Difficult to put anything after the Pilgrim, IMO - that third part cries out to go back to G. If you do, you're not creating any element of surprise (assuming you want such) and if you don't, it'll sound a bit odd ... Just my opinion ...
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I agree, Mr blend (or Ms?). I f there must be accompaniment to Blarney Pilgrim, a great finish is when the last thing you hear is a D chord. And sometimes, not every time, if that's the first thing you hear too.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Just so Silver Spear's response doesn't come off as flip and dismissive, I'll try to explain: you're thinking about this all wrong. there are no "rules" only habits and suggestions. And these change all the time, often with surprising and pleasing results. It's not just about key and mode, tunes should go together united by a common "feel" -- unless they don't and you want to put them together for contrast. You develop this "feel" over time as your familiarity The Music grows. So the answer to your question really is, as The Silver Spear so succinctly put it: place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets wherever you want.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
We often play Pipe On The Hob followed by Banish Misfortune. The two-part Pipe On The Hob, not the three-parter of the same name. I had to look up Pipe On The Hob to see that it's in D mix as well -- I didn't know the key/mode, I just know how to play it. So that's two Dmixes back-to-back. Older players did this often enough, I'm told.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
OP is a thinker. Maybe a guitar player who has had enough jigs in G? I don't think about keys much, other than sometimes get tired of those I just mentioned. Don't out think it I say.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Since I've taken up ITM melody playing and my rhythm guitar playing is mostly in the rear-view mirror now, I have lost most of my need for knowing dorian/aeolian/myxolydian etc. I know they exist, I know there are tunes posted here that list the key/mode, but honesly I've seen little need to know much about them. I find that over time certain tunes just seem to go together better than others and that it's best to figure that out on my own. Isn't that the ITM way?
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Silver Spear and gam have it.
Now, on to what sounds right to me. I like sets that add sharps (for example, G to D). I also like sets that go from minor to major (Em to G, for example). Sometimes, I like sets that change modes, but stick with the same key signature (for example, G to A dorian). Sometimes, I like to stick with the same key.
Then, sometimes you pair tunes for no good reason, and as pointed out above, some are in no particular key, or multiple keys. For example, the set that is common around here, Cup of Tea into Earl's Chair. A whole lot of variety in those two!
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I suggest trying different combinations of tunes, then, make a recording, pour a cold one, sit back and listen to the effect of the medley you've made. Revise, record, repeat... there are no hard and fast rules, as Silver Spear, gam, and Al Brown have said. Whatever fits works, but you need to step back and listen as an audience member.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
"D mixolydian is Just G, so wherever you would put a tune in G"
Hrm? Only the key signature matters? That's going a little far for me... It's pretty close to the 52-pickup rule of set building: any three tunes you think of, played without interruption, constitute a set.
For me a good set has to start well, and flow well from one tune to the next, and preferably end on a tune that is well known to the players at hand and has good lift to it. What goes on in the middle is the fun part. The main thing, though, is the flow. Each tune should stand out from the ones around it, but feel like it was meant to go with them. A sense of surprising inevitability is what I'm going for, if that makes sense.
But the key signatures are only the smallest part of it, and they don't matter at all if the tunes work.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
As for Blarney Pilgrim, I like to follow it with Tobin's Favorite to end a set. Lots of tunes can come before, usually I'll go with Kitty's Rambles unless something else comes to mind.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Thanks to all that replied something useful I know there are no rules - yet, you find dozens of discussions about them. In a session, guitar players sometimes ask the keys, that's why I had to start thinking about them. Naturally, I put tunes into sets as I play, without speculating on it too much. I just thought someone might come up with something interessting
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Guitarists should be able to figure out keys (and lots of other things but whatever) on their own. I don't shout keys. 1. I usually can't speak and play so I'm gonna trainwreck as soon as I yell a key. 2. It's their problem; not mine. Seems to me that if you want to be backer at a session, part of your job is to sort out keys yourself.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I wasn't expecting a different reaction really, about the guitarists and shouting keys But if I want them to join sooner than at 2nd repetition, I shout the key or tell them in advance. Also, we're not talking about sessions in Ireland or UK
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
It's strange, the thing about creating sets, because there are formulas that often work, but at the same time one tune will simply sound brilliant going into another tune for no reason that music theory can explain.
It's often very effective to follow a Major tune with a Mixolydian tune in the same key. The first appearance of the flat 7th melody note, and for the accompaniment the first appearance of the chord based upon the flat 7th, really jumps out as "cool". For example I've been playing the D Major jig Sport, followed by the D Mixolydian jig Hag With The Money.
On the other hand it can sound great to go the other way, going from a D Mixolydian tune to a D Major tune. The new tune sounds "bright".
Same goes for Dorian tunes: if coming from a Major or Mixolydian tune the first appearance of the minor 3rd in the melody sounds bluesy and cool.
Cape Breton fiddlers used to often construct sets by progressively taking away the sharps, for example starting off in A Major, then to A Mixolydian, and finally to A Dorian. Once this cycle is completed the set can end or even go back the other way. The sets can be quite long, a dozen tunes or so.
In Irish music people often rely on the effective gimmick (common in pop music and becoming nearly universal in Christian Praise music) of bumping up a step. So, start in G, go to A/AMix/ADor. Can then even go to B Minor.
Or start in D and bump up to E Dorian.
Many sets I hear people play, to my ear, don't work well at all, often parked in the same key and mode for three tunes and going nowhere. On the other hand, sometimes a set of three tunes that stays in the same key and mode can be quite effective.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Oh another thing, composers have known for hundreds of years, from Bach to the Beatles, that an ABA structure is musicially satisying to the listener.
What this means translated in to building sets of Irish tunes is that is can be satisfying to start in a key, go from it, and then return to it for the final tune. So DMaj > DMix > DMaj, or DMaj > EDor, DMaj, etc.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
"Older players did this often enough, I'm told." - fidkid
This statement caught my eye, and curiosity took over, so I looked it up and looking through the list of recordings that have Banish Misfortune, I found only one (1) that followed pipe on the hob. Not having the recording, I can't say for sure that it is even your two part. Since it is a recording with pipes on it, there's a good chance it's the more common "piper" 3-part.
By the way, told by who? If it is who I think it is, he often uses such statements to attempt to lend weight and authority to what he chooses to do, correctly or incorrectly. In this case, I would say it is incorrect.
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Banish Misfortune into Cliffs of Moher works really well.
haven't found anything to go with Blarney Pilgrim that works well..so just to slightly highjack this thread, does anyone have any working suggestions?
ps that's for playing and not dancing btw
Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Hi,
I know what the modes are, just don't know what to do with them in ITM.
I've searched in older discussions about putting tunes into sets and it was really usefull. I got a general idea about going from D to G and then A and other rules. But I'm wondering, if you have any other general "rules" about where mixolydian and dorian modes should be placed. E.g. A mixolydian looks a bit like D major, only it sounds totally different, so should I place an Amix tune as a classical D or A tune in the set? If you know what I mean... I usually play 2 Dmix jigs together (Blarney Pilgrim and Banish Misfortune), because it sounds interesting to me, but I'm sure you'll come up with better ideas
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by baruskaob
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Wherever.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I tried a tune in the durian mode once - my goodness, that raised a stink!
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by RichardB
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
If my limited an sessionless experince counts...
, but maybe it's the same with this mode.
As for Dorian, I think C/C# are so unstable (some tunes have both) that it doesn't matter if a tune is E Aeolian or Dorian. Just learning my first Mixo tune
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by Elvellon
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I can see this thread running and running without ever getting a better response than TSS's above.
Oh, and on the specifics, you'll find that there are different opinions as to what key/mode Blarney Pilgrim is in. Not that it matters. But I still wouldn't put Banish Misfortune after it. Difficult to put anything after the Pilgrim, IMO - that third part cries out to go back to G. If you do, you're not creating any element of surprise (assuming you want such) and if you don't, it'll sound a bit odd ... Just my opinion ...
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Yes Silver Spear nailed it and there's no further point to add.......
however.....so.....I....don't know why...I'm writing this?!
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by shanty
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I agree, Mr blend (or Ms?). I f there must be accompaniment to Blarney Pilgrim, a great finish is when the last thing you hear is a D chord. And sometimes, not every time, if that's the first thing you hear too.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
If it sounds right, it is right.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by gam
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Just so Silver Spear's response doesn't come off as flip and dismissive, I'll try to explain: you're thinking about this all wrong. there are no "rules" only habits and suggestions. And these change all the time, often with surprising and pleasing results. It's not just about key and mode, tunes should go together united by a common "feel" -- unless they don't and you want to put them together for contrast. You develop this "feel" over time as your familiarity The Music grows. So the answer to your question really is, as The Silver Spear so succinctly put it: place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets wherever you want.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by fidkid
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
We often play Pipe On The Hob followed by Banish Misfortune. The two-part Pipe On The Hob, not the three-parter of the same name. I had to look up Pipe On The Hob to see that it's in D mix as well -- I didn't know the key/mode, I just know how to play it. So that's two Dmixes back-to-back. Older players did this often enough, I'm told.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by fidkid
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Me? Flip and dismissive? Never. ; )
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I think I can see (hear?) the reason for the trick C's and F's you get in some tunes.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
At the risk of sounding flippant:
Q: Where do I place myxomatosis and doreen tunes in sets?
A: In the session. Sometimes in the kitchen.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by showaddydadito
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Gam summed it up wonderfully. "If it sounds right, it is right."
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by jigtime
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
OP is a thinker. Maybe a guitar player who has had enough jigs in G? I don't think about keys much, other than sometimes get tired of those I just mentioned. Don't out think it I say.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Since I've taken up ITM melody playing and my rhythm guitar playing is mostly in the rear-view mirror now, I have lost most of my need for knowing dorian/aeolian/myxolydian etc. I know they exist, I know there are tunes posted here that list the key/mode, but honesly I've seen little need to know much about them. I find that over time certain tunes just seem to go together better than others and that it's best to figure that out on my own. Isn't that the ITM way?
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
D mixolydian is Just G, so wherever you would put a tune in G
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Silver Spear and gam have it.
Now, on to what sounds right to me. I like sets that add sharps (for example, G to D). I also like sets that go from minor to major (Em to G, for example). Sometimes, I like sets that change modes, but stick with the same key signature (for example, G to A dorian). Sometimes, I like to stick with the same key.
Then, sometimes you pair tunes for no good reason, and as pointed out above, some are in no particular key, or multiple keys. For example, the set that is common around here, Cup of Tea into Earl's Chair. A whole lot of variety in those two!
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I suggest trying different combinations of tunes, then, make a recording, pour a cold one, sit back and listen to the effect of the medley you've made. Revise, record, repeat... there are no hard and fast rules, as Silver Spear, gam, and Al Brown have said. Whatever fits works, but you need to step back and listen as an audience member.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
"D mixolydian is Just G, so wherever you would put a tune in G"
Hrm? Only the key signature matters? That's going a little far for me... It's pretty close to the 52-pickup rule of set building: any three tunes you think of, played without interruption, constitute a set.
For me a good set has to start well, and flow well from one tune to the next, and preferably end on a tune that is well known to the players at hand and has good lift to it. What goes on in the middle is the fun part. The main thing, though, is the flow. Each tune should stand out from the ones around it, but feel like it was meant to go with them. A sense of surprising inevitability is what I'm going for, if that makes sense.
But the key signatures are only the smallest part of it, and they don't matter at all if the tunes work.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
As for Blarney Pilgrim, I like to follow it with Tobin's Favorite to end a set. Lots of tunes can come before, usually I'll go with Kitty's Rambles unless something else comes to mind.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Thanks to all that replied something useful
I know there are no rules - yet, you find dozens of discussions about them. In a session, guitar players sometimes ask the keys, that's why I had to start thinking about them. Naturally, I put tunes into sets as I play, without speculating on it too much. I just thought someone might come up with something interessting 
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by baruskaob
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Guitarists should be able to figure out keys (and lots of other things but whatever) on their own. I don't shout keys. 1. I usually can't speak and play so I'm gonna trainwreck as soon as I yell a key. 2. It's their problem; not mine. Seems to me that if you want to be backer at a session, part of your job is to sort out keys yourself.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
It can be difficult to sort out the keys yourself if you have too many keys in your pocket.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
I wasn't expecting a different reaction really, about the guitarists and shouting keys
But if I want them to join sooner than at 2nd repetition, I shout the key or tell them in advance. Also, we're not talking about sessions in Ireland or UK 
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by baruskaob
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
If you ask me to play guitar, then I will make keys your problem
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
It's strange, the thing about creating sets, because there are formulas that often work, but at the same time one tune will simply sound brilliant going into another tune for no reason that music theory can explain.
It's often very effective to follow a Major tune with a Mixolydian tune in the same key. The first appearance of the flat 7th melody note, and for the accompaniment the first appearance of the chord based upon the flat 7th, really jumps out as "cool". For example I've been playing the D Major jig Sport, followed by the D Mixolydian jig Hag With The Money.
On the other hand it can sound great to go the other way, going from a D Mixolydian tune to a D Major tune. The new tune sounds "bright".
Same goes for Dorian tunes: if coming from a Major or Mixolydian tune the first appearance of the minor 3rd in the melody sounds bluesy and cool.
Cape Breton fiddlers used to often construct sets by progressively taking away the sharps, for example starting off in A Major, then to A Mixolydian, and finally to A Dorian. Once this cycle is completed the set can end or even go back the other way. The sets can be quite long, a dozen tunes or so.
In Irish music people often rely on the effective gimmick (common in pop music and becoming nearly universal in Christian Praise music) of bumping up a step. So, start in G, go to A/AMix/ADor. Can then even go to B Minor.
Or start in D and bump up to E Dorian.
Many sets I hear people play, to my ear, don't work well at all, often parked in the same key and mode for three tunes and going nowhere. On the other hand, sometimes a set of three tunes that stays in the same key and mode can be quite effective.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Richard D Cook
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Oh another thing, composers have known for hundreds of years, from Bach to the Beatles, that an ABA structure is musicially satisying to the listener.
What this means translated in to building sets of Irish tunes is that is can be satisfying to start in a key, go from it, and then return to it for the final tune. So DMaj > DMix > DMaj, or DMaj > EDor, DMaj, etc.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Richard D Cook
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
"Older players did this often enough, I'm told." - fidkid
This statement caught my eye, and curiosity took over, so I looked it up and looking through the list of recordings that have Banish Misfortune, I found only one (1) that followed pipe on the hob. Not having the recording, I can't say for sure that it is even your two part. Since it is a recording with pipes on it, there's a good chance it's the more common "piper" 3-part.
By the way, told by who? If it is who I think it is, he often uses such statements to attempt to lend weight and authority to what he chooses to do, correctly or incorrectly. In this case, I would say it is incorrect.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Nico
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Banish Misfortune into Cliffs of Moher works really well.
haven't found anything to go with Blarney Pilgrim that works well..so just to slightly highjack this thread, does anyone have any working suggestions?
ps that's for playing and not dancing btw
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by onscuba
Re: Where do you place mixolydian and dorian tunes in sets?
Blarney Pilgrim -> Star Above The Garter
Blarney Pilgrim - > Mist Covered Mountain
Both work for me.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by twangalot