A "3 chord trick" being 3 chords that are common, have a tonic/subdominant/dominant feel and include all 7 notes of the scale... I'll try to figure it out.
Major/Ionian: I, IV, V (D, G, A; G, C, D) - already said.
Minor/Aeolian: I, VI, VII (Em, C, D)
Dorian: I, IV, VII (Em, A, D; Am, D, G) - note that a 2-chord trick is almost as useful here , e.g. Em, D.
Mixolydian: I, IV, VII (D, G, C; A, D, G)
Note that Ionian/Aeolian are more accepting of other chords, like IV and V for Aeolian (just no harmonic minor please!) or II and VI for Ionian. Whereas for Dorian and Mixolydian a 2-chord trick (I, V) is often enough.
Sorry, disregard my previous message! Is there no way to delete messages here?
A "3 chord trick" being 3 chords that are common, have a tonic/subdominant/dominant feel and include all 7 notes of the scale... I'll try to figure it out.
Major/Ionian: I, IV, V (D, G, A; G, C, D) - already said.
Minor/Aeolian: I, VI, VII (Em, C, D)
Dorian: I, IV, VII (Em, A, D; Am, D, G)
Mixolydian: I, IV, VII (D, G, C; A, D, G)
Note that Ionian/Aeolian are more accepting of other chords, like IV and V for Aeolian (just no harmonic minor please!) or II and VI for Ionian. Whereas for Dorian and Mixolydian a 2-chord semi-trick (I, VII) is often enough.
The three chord trick can work if they are in the proper order for each individual tune you are playing. The big problem with backers who want to just get by at a session, or to be part of it socially or whatever, is when they don't put the work in to learn the tunes at least in their heads. They sit there and play the D-G-A in that order repeatedly, even when the tune may be in D but starts on the G or the A, or skips around a lot, or part B goes into something else. Then it's a mess.
If three, even two chords are played tastefully (as in, you must remember the backer is not necessary to the music, does not need to cover the music by being too loud, does not need to "drive the melody" but a good one can add another very interesting dimension), played in good timing, and in the right progression for each individual tune, that's ok.... it can work. I'd just find it terribly boring somehow, you might have more fun learning the ins and outs and twists and turns of each tune, and being really with them at each step.
I once had someone ask for lessons, and they actually said, just teach me two chords in each key, and I will alternate them and get them right about half the time and that's good enough. He was sent elsewhere.
Not being critical....it can work, but you really need to get the tunes learned to have it work well and have people want to play with you. It's not a matter of learning major keys are 1-4-5 etc. though it doesn't hurt to know that, it just doesn't follow that order all the time.
there are basic patterns, I don't know music theory at all being a lifelong ear player, but suggest to people, instead or in addition to theory, to listen to what seems to fit each tune. In Irish music, the rules and patterns are so often broken, but that's the fun of it though, makes it exciting.
In many ways really good backing is harder than melody playing when taken to it's utmost degree (here I do expect some disagreement from melody players, but many of them don't understand about backing, so will refer to those who play both melody and backup), the really great backers tend to also be melody players, and quite a few say the backing is often more of a challenge, having to know the tune and do something different with their hands at the same time. It would benefit greatly to learn some melody and structure of the tunes, starting with ones you love, and I don't mean to assume you haven't done this anyway, but just in case. It really is such a great help in understanding how to accompany this music.
There is more to the music that three notes, and the chords would be hitting the main stress notes. There is so much more going on in between the chords however. Backers who play too loudly can occlude this beauty between the chords, because, for one example, let's take a tune in G major. G-C-D. So many times leading up to the G there is an F# in so many tunes. There are many ways to lead into each chord, and the accompaniment stays more with the tunes that way, It's very fleeting, but you can catch these interesting twists in the form of lead in notes and thus make your accompaniment more interesting that the two or three chord trick. It's not that hard either once you do it a few times.
It may sound complex to someone starting out on a new instrument, and we all need to start out somewhere and with the basics before we can depart from them even a little. So to make a short story long (a closet tech writer here, hard to stop!! Sorry). Figure out your patterns, learn the tunes and structures of the tunes, and once comfy with all that, accompaniment is really a very satisfying and creative thing.
At our session, we're all about welcoming all level of players, and really want to help out and make people comfy.... so hopefully this doesn't come off as critical in any way. Learn the tunes...it's the best way. Not even note for note to play them (though that helps) but in your mind at the very least so you know what is coming next in a tune, instead of relying on a rotating pattern of chords.
Hope this makes some sense... definitely way more than you asked for. It also helps to ask some melody players you play with, what they want in a backer. It really is all about accomodating them and the melody. Sounds subservient, yet it's not really.
I appreciate all the points you're making re backing. This is the direction I'm coming from, TBH - ie delicate, non-intrusive acompaniment, - as I do play a bit of melody. It was just mainly a music theory question I had re the structures of the modes/keys, as I have only ever played melody by ear.
That's really a great post irisnevins. The things he said can be applied to whatever music as well, not only ITM. As a guitar/violin player myself I have learned to listen to the tunes, and often I know the tunes on the violin before I attempt to back them up on the guitar.
However I do think that knowing progressions such as tonic-subdominant-dominant-tonic or others, such as II-V-I or whatever can be extremly usefull. But the most important thing when backing I think is to still know the tune, so that you don't feel wrong about sometimes breaking that II-V-I into a II-V-back to II-V-I, or whatever might fit the tune.
Being classically studied I have learned alot about classical "backing", and it is not allways nessesary to let the melody fit the chords. A sixth on a subdominant (IV) can be nice, as well as a nine, eleven or even a thirteen above the dominant. And often in classical music (and I think as well in Irish music) the chord progression tends to be MORE important then to fit the chords exactly to the melody.
To learn lot's of cadences I think is good, because then you know how to wrap things up. But I have found that "chord scales" can be useful in Irish backing as well. When I converted into DADGAD guitar I saw the chords more like I-II-III-IV and so on than before. So a good practice can be to just play a D major scale up and down on the lowest string. Then add a third or a fifth of each on the second lowest string, to create a harmony around the scale. By suspending that you get a "chord scale" which can be really usefull ontop of the other theories you might learn.
Sorry for my bad english... But I hope that helped a bit as well.
"Being classically studied I have learned alot about classical "backing", and it is not allways nessesary to let the melody fit the chords. A sixth on a subdominant (IV) can be nice, as well as a nine, eleven or even a thirteen above the dominant. And often in classical music (and I think as well in Irish music) the chord progression tends to be MORE important then to fit the chords exactly to the melody."
Those substitutions are all commonly taught in first year theory. Really the same theories and techniques apply to making chord progressions for all music. The only thing about Irish music that is different is that frequent parallel movement between the bass and melody doesn't sound as bad as in a lot of other contexts. But a chord progression with bass notes moving in relative counterpoint to the melody (rhythmically as well as melodically) while using chords, inversions, and harmonic rhythm that perfectly complement the melody is the ideal in any case, no matter what the music. I would say as a backer, you really have to consider your bass notes to be the most important notes you play. Your bass line has to have a dialog with the tune, whether they are agreeing or disagreeing with each other. an example is Tam Lin, The first note in the tune is that low ,A note, which is probably most commonly backed by the tonic chord of the key, D minor (I use the power chord in DADGAD way up the neck. The next chord change starts with the melody on the low Bb where i would play the diatonic chord based on that note (a bar chord in DADGAD, or substitute a g minor chord in open position ). This is a good example of the melody and bass line changing intervals, rather than playing a chord based on A and then a chord based on Bb, which is just bland parallelism (you might as well just play the melody.)
Iris, elvellon, svampskallen and earl, you all have both given such thought and structure in your answers.
As a melody player, and guitarist who doesn’t get the chance to play that much because I’m required to play tunes, I empathise with your comments and advice completely.
There have been many sessions where, with the best intentions shall I say, would be accompanists think, on hearing the key automatically go into a sequence of chords which they have applied to another tune.
And might I add, to compound matters, when there is another, or more, then it can be quite a harrowing time.
It’s sad really because if they listened to the other’s playing there could be some wonderful harmonic tone through playing different chord inversions and subtle rhythmic pulses.
I say this humbly, because in having a large repertoire I have an intimate knowledge of the tune already, and not all who would accompany have that advantage if they are exposed to a tune the first time. Where it is frustrating is if they don’t “hear” where it doesn’t fit.
So if I might add any advice, and not direct it at you Johnny (I’m sure the nature of your question intimates that you listen!) to anyone who wishes to play along, try and develop an ear which “hears” what the tune is doing.
Well Johnny I do hope you have a wonderful time exploring the good advice supplied here, and you have a fun time playing.
thanks, Johnny.... I didn't automatically assume you didn't know the music, and was speaking more generally.
Interesting about TamLin.... I play it as a tune in DADGAD (as I do most actual tunes) but play accompaniment in dropped D. There are times I am with a fiddler at a session who loves to play the tune, and she will go into it from something else, figuring I will revert to tune playing, forgetting I need to re-tune... I am in the wrong tuning for melody. It can be done of course in Dropped D, but I am not prepared with the Dropped D version. So I have to back it, though still get in a lot of melody notes, but find it a tune that is much easier to play as melody than to back. For example, that Bb, in backing it, playing that note makes everything sound wonderfully right. It is so fleeting, that it is awkward to my ear to play as a chord, so I note it instead, en route to where the F chord should be (though I often just note that with thumbpick too).
Johnny, Click on my user name, and in my profile you will see an article on accompanying this music, including information that I have picked up over the years, from fellow musicians, teachers, and this website. It contains a lot of information that I was writing in response to questions like yours, and I finally decided to just collect it all in one place. I hope you find some useful facts and opinions there, and there are also some suggestions for folks (like coyotebanjo) who can support you as you study further. And always listen to irisnevins on this site, she is the best!
Yes.... Al has great thoughts on all this. I have a huge bunch of notes, used thus far for workshop handouts. Trying to think of another way now, it's grown to about 27 pages, and still adding to it.... perhaps a PDF down the line. For classes it's a nightmare, having to keep printing it out repeatedly for each person. If that ever happens I will get it more organized and post a pdf somehow. Keeping in mind it is just one person's opinions and feelings on accompaniment, not gospel. There are as many different ways as players.
It's from a class I have dubbed, since Banjo Burke Weekend, "Beyond Keys and Chord Charts, Techniques To Increase Speed Agility And Fluidity". The Burke weekend was great because we had a long time, three classes, to delve into the basic "one finger slide (on guitar, not bouzouki, Johnny) that is the basis for all my playing. It is a lot easier than it looks, and transcends all levels and can be used for flatpicking and fingerpicking, strumming, Dropped D or DADGAD. It's a technique thing and easily taught. The only real problem is, people pick it up almost instantly, and do it fine in front of me but don't go practice once at home. They revert to the old ways they had, often much more difficult and convoluted. I remind them it is a lesson, not a transfusion. In class they are amazed how easy it is. We also pinpoint trouble spots, and correct them, and honestly most backers get into trouble because they are working too hard....as in trying to do a strum for every single melody note. That is the cause of most timing loss. So we work with making use of the natural sustain of the soundbox to fill in (this works for bouzouki too) and take a long strum and let it ring sometimes. There are a lot of interesting things a backer can do, including ways of doing a "save" for a melody player who messed up. It's all part of the depths of backing and lots of fun, the many ways you can use it,
Having never been taught to play (and hopefully no one will run and have a bit of fun with that statement, LOL) I made up a whole series of combinations of sounds since childhood. They were nameless, no A B C etc. or anything. I discovered these wonderful things called chord charts later....but by then my odd ways had taken root. I do believe my odd way with mainly one, but sometimes two or three figner slides, and making use of the open strings surrounding is light years easier than proper chording. I do use chords though as stress notes .... but they are the "exclamation points" of the playing, not the basis of it. The basis ends up melody, partial melody, counter melody. I actually picked that up by listening to great Irish piano backers, not guitar players.... unless you count Martin Carthy, he does a lot of that too. We string backers can benefit greatly by listening to the likes of Charlie Lennon and Felix Dolan to name a few. Listen to how they handle the tunes in the background. Way more interesting than alternating three chords (which again, can work done well). Perhaps it's just due to the nature of the piano, but they do not sit on one chord very long, and tend to add melody and counter melody bits, often as a lead into the next chord.
If the bouzouki were in DADG it could work on that also I believe. I've been asked by a few to put up some youtubes of the one "finger slide" that works so well for this music. Slowly! I do have a few up with fiddler Kathleen Collins Put both our names in the search), they are not perfect .... I didn't even know the tunes, and she was trying a new fiddle (note there is a price tag hanging off it!) that is being sent back for being too squeaky and there was a little something with the fingerboard throwing off the intonation a little bit here and there. Anyway, is was casual, just for fun, I just got a Flip, so we figured we'd toss them up there. Anyway, there is one that is all guitar, one with just harp, and another with harp first, then guitar, the Cape Breton set.
I am in the process of charting the basic moves, on a guitar grid, and have them as alternate suggestions instead of full chords. Kind of a mess at the moment though! Still, they would be just a basis. Backing each tune is different, as different as the tunes themselves are. No one formula fits all, not ever. The charts are just a starting point.
Good luck.... Johnny, just keep at it and enjoy it!
Congratulations, Johnny Madra, now you've done it. Your comments caught the attention of "Irisnevins", the Energizer Bunny Rabbit of accompanists. Once she starts writing about accompanying music, she just seems to keep going and going and going.....
Irisnevins, as for the person who just wanted to learn two chords in each key so they could be right half the time and wrong the other half of the time, you did the right thing by sending them elsewhere. I would have acted the same way with a student who asked for that small an amount of training.
I try to avoid playing the melody at all and just play bass notes and chords because I feel as if I am working both with and against the melody player or players at the same time. I don't want to play the same thing as the melody players. Instead, I am trying to do something that fits with what they are playing but is different. I am trying to make sure that the different parts of the musical "machine" fit together properly so it doesn't all collapse and fall apart.
Yes knowing the tunes is very helpful if you are a backup musician/sideman and I do play them when I am at home practicing by myself. I don't play tunes at the local sessions because there are enough melody players at the local sessions. I just accompany the other musicians (using that term rather loosely)
After playing this music for about fifteen years, it seems to me as if many of these tunes need more than just two chords or three chords to do them justice and accompany them properly. Since we don't use sheet music (otherwise known as the "dots") at the local sessions, after I get home from the session, I will sometimes check the sheet music and compare it to what I heard and played at the session. Most of the time, my musical instincts concerning the key and chords turns out to have been correct.
mmmmm Properly mmmm a very loaded statement I know and have listened to many people play all different not all good who all thought they played properly.
I would go and find a player you like and talk to him or her
Dave,,,, great idea. The player I found and loved was Martin Carthy, who I got to talk to briefly in the 70s. The other idol was and still is John Renbourne ...who I actually taught a tune to once! That was terrifying, and he could play it better than me in about five minutes! Still I love to watch these two play though they are not around much. Thank Heaven for Youtube!
i will TRY to keep it short. Being a tech writer for my "real job" of paper marbling, well, once it starts, it flows. Please, I pray for writer's block!!
I have played guitar improperly for 47 years. Since I was a very young thing. it was there in the house, actually was my neighbor's abandoned classical Goya. She could never play, no one in my house played. I copied tunes i heard without seeing them played, nor any dots. I admit, I play wrong if you want to get into technique, but also developed a technique that is easier, because it follows the path of least resistance to a full sound. Somehow it seems to work. I just have peoples' feedback to go by. If they didn't like it, and not all like that style, I'd be changing it to what people suggested, and at times I have taken critiques very much to heart and changed certain things over the years. Sometimes your critics are your best teachers.
Still, playing "Properly" ...when the Guitar Police say I don't use enough fingers or, Heaven forbid, rest (not support, but REST, when not used) my middle finger on the sound board, often called POSTING, I just ask..."did it sound OK though". Well...um yes, but...you're supposed to do it THIS other way. Well Django Reinhardt had just two fingers... really, can't technique not be tweaked a bit?
Anyway, I play harp now too, both melody and backing, and have discovered that the harp police make the guitar police seem like a walk in the park. Trouble is they are all right and so many have a different "proper technique" and hand position etc. , and among them, many super players too. Still, I must say, when someone says something is wrong, I do try it their way, seriously... sometimes they are right or have a suggestion that makes it easier to play. One shouldn't be closed minded to trying the suggested "Proper" ways, maybe one will fit you better, or possibly a combination of a few of them.
People's hands are all a bit different. On harp especially, what your thumb is like can sometimes make it easier or harder to play, one great harper said. She said those with a straight rather than curved thumb have an easier time of it. I have curved.....drat....
OK....better sign off. I actually swore off posting on these backing threads, so don't know what happened....sigh....work is slow.... have a little idle time on my hands!!
Iris
Iris, Please don't ever think you talk too much, your inputs are ALWAYS appreciated. And if you ever do get your notes organized, I for one would be happy to see them!
"Energizer Bunny Rabbit of accompanists" - I love that description. Well done again Iris for giving so much well thought out informnation. When's the book being published??
Ha ha Donough.... you never know. I just wonder who would want it.
I have Sarah McQuaid coming next month for a concert and visit. She wrote the DADGAD Guitar Book. We have a lot of similar odd ideas like listening to piano players and adapting it to guitar. I was surprised to find she thought the same.... usually people think I have gone mad.
There is so much more really to backing than keys and chord charts.... some of what I have jotted down, and cover in a class where there is a long time, is how to mimic the slides and fluidity of the flute and fiddle on guitar and be right there with them when they do it, or hold a long note using the sustain of the box when they hold a note. There is so much fun to be had in accompaniment that I actually love it more than melody playing. When you really get into it deeply it really is amazing. Many think we back because we can't play melody, but every truly great backer I have ever met is also am able melody player, but they back because they love it more,... not because it's dumbed down and easier than melody.
I’ve been lucky enough to play with some wonderful guitarists back in England and Ireland before coming out here to Tassie, and meeting some more.
Donough who has just written has invited me to visit but I live on a very humble income and haven’t had the chance to meet up yet, but I’ve heard wonderful comments about his playing.
The reason I’m sending this post is as an example of what you last wrote for Johnny.
The two clips I’m putting I think exemplify what you were just explaining to Johnny, about playing across and with counter melody. I don’t claim them to be anything special but it might give Johnny some ideas. The guitar player is Tom Dunlop; he's from Belfast.
http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIPyeeY9xfY
http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUjM8woSAQk
Thank you again for your lovely contribution, you put it so much more logically than I could ever hope to attain.
It's great to find such a nice discussion about guitar playing. I have some clips of guitar in various styles and accompaniments, mostly in CGCGCD on the Celtic stuff. Plenty of 3-chord tricks there! Joel
I should add that I didn't state that the tunes were not in the range of Johnny's question. It was to amplify the comments from Iris about timing and being melodic.
I do so love guitarists to be melodic, and not purely percussive. It's a great pleasure to listen to and absorb, and it can add so much richness, depth and variation to a session.
Joel McDermott....Genius level!!! I don't have time to listen to all, but Nine Barrow Hounds.... (I hope I remembered the title right!!) floored me!!! Where are you from, where can one see you?
Well as long as people are posting youtubes...let me put these here with a disclaimer.... these clips with Kathleen Collins were on the fly off the cuff, I had not heard most of the tunes before this moment, so a few flubs,,,,,and her fiddle if you look closely, it has a price tag...she was trying it out. She is fiddle shopping, this one is too shrill and has some intonation issues with the fingerboard she was trying to compensate for.
I just got a Flip for Christmas and we were playing with it. We have a concert coming up this Sat. at IAANJ ( www.iaanj.com if you want to come, just show up at the door by 7:30 ) and thought, why not put up the tunes so people can get an idea of what to expect.
Irisnevins, I think you should just go ahead and write as many thousands or millions of words about accompanying as you want to write because what I have read by you makes a lot of sense to this piano player.
"Energizer Bunny Rabbit Of Accompanists" was meant to be a half-serious, half-joking compliment.
I disagree and I don't think you should pray for writer's block when you are writing about musical techniques such as accompanying. Instead, I would encourage you to keep writing until you have enough for a whole book whether or not you ever intend or try to publish a book.
Thanks for the links, is that 'the' Kathleen Collins? Great to hear that she still plays.... She is one of my fiddle heroes! Is she going to record another album? been a while since the last one eh!
Just to be a bit of a argumentative person at this guitar love in festival , the OP actually mentions that he was going to play the' three chord trick 'on the Bouzouki
I think the ' three chord trick 'sounds better on the guitar rather than on a GDAE tuned Bouzouki . Anyone else agree?
Fauxcelt... thanks....actually the thing is I am a writer on my work, paper marbling, a tech writer for magazines and five books. I also produced the James Morrison Book for Vernonica McNamara http://marblingpaper.com/JamesMorrisonBook.html
My real fear is that I will bore people with being too wordy! I eventaully may have to organize all the thoughts into a book, it's getting too big for handouts.
AND..... yes wicked....that is THE Kathleen Collins, she is just out with a new CD after way too long, called My Book Of Songs. It was produced by Gabriel Donohue ( a great guitar, bouzouki and piano player himself) and he backed her on multiple instruments.
You can email her directly for a copy, include name address and phone #. Email: setdancing1@optonline.net she will get back to you. A website is in the works but not up yet.
Instead of "organ"izing my thoughts, it would be more appropriate for me to "piano"ize my thoughts.
If you ask my wife, she will tell you that my brain is dis"organ"ized although I am a piano player.
3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
A chairde,
I'm learning the bouzouki, and am fine with the "3 chord trick" for Major tunes, ie 1-4-5.
But what is it for tunes in Minor keys, and Mixoldian/Dorian modes?
Are minor tunes 1-6-7?
Go raibh maith agaibh.
Johnny Madra.
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by Johnny Madra
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
What "three chord trick" would that be?
I'm only curious, not slagging yet.
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
eg, D-G-A, when backing in Dmajor.
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by Johnny Madra
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
A "3 chord trick" being 3 chords that are common, have a tonic/subdominant/dominant feel and include all 7 notes of the scale... I'll try to figure it out.
, e.g. Em, D.
Major/Ionian: I, IV, V (D, G, A; G, C, D) - already said.
Minor/Aeolian: I, VI, VII (Em, C, D)
Dorian: I, IV, VII (Em, A, D; Am, D, G) - note that a 2-chord trick is almost as useful here
Mixolydian: I, IV, VII (D, G, C; A, D, G)
Note that Ionian/Aeolian are more accepting of other chords, like IV and V for Aeolian (just no harmonic minor please!) or II and VI for Ionian. Whereas for Dorian and Mixolydian a 2-chord trick (I, V) is often enough.
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by Elvellon
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Makes sense....
Much appreciated, a chara!
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by Johnny Madra
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Sorry, disregard my previous message! Is there no way to delete messages here?
(I, VII) is often enough.
A "3 chord trick" being 3 chords that are common, have a tonic/subdominant/dominant feel and include all 7 notes of the scale... I'll try to figure it out.
Major/Ionian: I, IV, V (D, G, A; G, C, D) - already said.
Minor/Aeolian: I, VI, VII (Em, C, D)
Dorian: I, IV, VII (Em, A, D; Am, D, G)
Mixolydian: I, IV, VII (D, G, C; A, D, G)
Note that Ionian/Aeolian are more accepting of other chords, like IV and V for Aeolian (just no harmonic minor please!) or II and VI for Ionian. Whereas for Dorian and Mixolydian a 2-chord semi-trick
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by Elvellon
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
The three chord trick can work if they are in the proper order for each individual tune you are playing. The big problem with backers who want to just get by at a session, or to be part of it socially or whatever, is when they don't put the work in to learn the tunes at least in their heads. They sit there and play the D-G-A in that order repeatedly, even when the tune may be in D but starts on the G or the A, or skips around a lot, or part B goes into something else. Then it's a mess.
If three, even two chords are played tastefully (as in, you must remember the backer is not necessary to the music, does not need to cover the music by being too loud, does not need to "drive the melody" but a good one can add another very interesting dimension), played in good timing, and in the right progression for each individual tune, that's ok.... it can work. I'd just find it terribly boring somehow, you might have more fun learning the ins and outs and twists and turns of each tune, and being really with them at each step.
I once had someone ask for lessons, and they actually said, just teach me two chords in each key, and I will alternate them and get them right about half the time and that's good enough. He was sent elsewhere.
Not being critical....it can work, but you really need to get the tunes learned to have it work well and have people want to play with you. It's not a matter of learning major keys are 1-4-5 etc. though it doesn't hurt to know that, it just doesn't follow that order all the time.
there are basic patterns, I don't know music theory at all being a lifelong ear player, but suggest to people, instead or in addition to theory, to listen to what seems to fit each tune. In Irish music, the rules and patterns are so often broken, but that's the fun of it though, makes it exciting.
In many ways really good backing is harder than melody playing when taken to it's utmost degree (here I do expect some disagreement from melody players, but many of them don't understand about backing, so will refer to those who play both melody and backup), the really great backers tend to also be melody players, and quite a few say the backing is often more of a challenge, having to know the tune and do something different with their hands at the same time. It would benefit greatly to learn some melody and structure of the tunes, starting with ones you love, and I don't mean to assume you haven't done this anyway, but just in case. It really is such a great help in understanding how to accompany this music.
There is more to the music that three notes, and the chords would be hitting the main stress notes. There is so much more going on in between the chords however. Backers who play too loudly can occlude this beauty between the chords, because, for one example, let's take a tune in G major. G-C-D. So many times leading up to the G there is an F# in so many tunes. There are many ways to lead into each chord, and the accompaniment stays more with the tunes that way, It's very fleeting, but you can catch these interesting twists in the form of lead in notes and thus make your accompaniment more interesting that the two or three chord trick. It's not that hard either once you do it a few times.
It may sound complex to someone starting out on a new instrument, and we all need to start out somewhere and with the basics before we can depart from them even a little. So to make a short story long (a closet tech writer here, hard to stop!! Sorry). Figure out your patterns, learn the tunes and structures of the tunes, and once comfy with all that, accompaniment is really a very satisfying and creative thing.
At our session, we're all about welcoming all level of players, and really want to help out and make people comfy.... so hopefully this doesn't come off as critical in any way. Learn the tunes...it's the best way. Not even note for note to play them (though that helps) but in your mind at the very least so you know what is coming next in a tune, instead of relying on a rotating pattern of chords.
Hope this makes some sense... definitely way more than you asked for. It also helps to ask some melody players you play with, what they want in a backer. It really is all about accomodating them and the melody. Sounds subservient, yet it's not really.
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Irisnevins, a chara,
Thanks for that excellent post.
I appreciate all the points you're making re backing. This is the direction I'm coming from, TBH - ie delicate, non-intrusive acompaniment, - as I do play a bit of melody. It was just mainly a music theory question I had re the structures of the modes/keys, as I have only ever played melody by ear.
Go raibh maith agat arís.
Johnny Madra.
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by Johnny Madra
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
That's really a great post irisnevins. The things he said can be applied to whatever music as well, not only ITM. As a guitar/violin player myself I have learned to listen to the tunes, and often I know the tunes on the violin before I attempt to back them up on the guitar.
However I do think that knowing progressions such as tonic-subdominant-dominant-tonic or others, such as II-V-I or whatever can be extremly usefull. But the most important thing when backing I think is to still know the tune, so that you don't feel wrong about sometimes breaking that II-V-I into a II-V-back to II-V-I, or whatever might fit the tune.
Being classically studied I have learned alot about classical "backing", and it is not allways nessesary to let the melody fit the chords. A sixth on a subdominant (IV) can be nice, as well as a nine, eleven or even a thirteen above the dominant. And often in classical music (and I think as well in Irish music) the chord progression tends to be MORE important then to fit the chords exactly to the melody.
To learn lot's of cadences I think is good, because then you know how to wrap things up. But I have found that "chord scales" can be useful in Irish backing as well. When I converted into DADGAD guitar I saw the chords more like I-II-III-IV and so on than before. So a good practice can be to just play a D major scale up and down on the lowest string. Then add a third or a fifth of each on the second lowest string, to create a harmony around the scale. By suspending that you get a "chord scale" which can be really usefull ontop of the other theories you might learn.
Sorry for my bad english... But I hope that helped a bit as well.
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by svampskallen
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
"Being classically studied I have learned alot about classical "backing", and it is not allways nessesary to let the melody fit the chords. A sixth on a subdominant (IV) can be nice, as well as a nine, eleven or even a thirteen above the dominant. And often in classical music (and I think as well in Irish music) the chord progression tends to be MORE important then to fit the chords exactly to the melody."
Those substitutions are all commonly taught in first year theory. Really the same theories and techniques apply to making chord progressions for all music. The only thing about Irish music that is different is that frequent parallel movement between the bass and melody doesn't sound as bad as in a lot of other contexts. But a chord progression with bass notes moving in relative counterpoint to the melody (rhythmically as well as melodically) while using chords, inversions, and harmonic rhythm that perfectly complement the melody is the ideal in any case, no matter what the music. I would say as a backer, you really have to consider your bass notes to be the most important notes you play. Your bass line has to have a dialog with the tune, whether they are agreeing or disagreeing with each other. an example is Tam Lin, The first note in the tune is that low ,A note, which is probably most commonly backed by the tonic chord of the key, D minor (I use the power chord in DADGAD way up the neck. The next chord change starts with the melody on the low Bb where i would play the diatonic chord based on that note (a bar chord in DADGAD, or substitute a g minor chord in open position ). This is a good example of the melody and bass line changing intervals, rather than playing a chord based on A and then a chord based on Bb, which is just bland parallelism (you might as well just play the melody.)
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
A chairde! Bail ó Dhia oraibh!
What a wonderful constructive post!
Iris, elvellon, svampskallen and earl, you all have both given such thought and structure in your answers.
As a melody player, and guitarist who doesn’t get the chance to play that much because I’m required to play tunes, I empathise with your comments and advice completely.
There have been many sessions where, with the best intentions shall I say, would be accompanists think, on hearing the key automatically go into a sequence of chords which they have applied to another tune.
And might I add, to compound matters, when there is another, or more, then it can be quite a harrowing time.
It’s sad really because if they listened to the other’s playing there could be some wonderful harmonic tone through playing different chord inversions and subtle rhythmic pulses.
I say this humbly, because in having a large repertoire I have an intimate knowledge of the tune already, and not all who would accompany have that advantage if they are exposed to a tune the first time. Where it is frustrating is if they don’t “hear” where it doesn’t fit.
So if I might add any advice, and not direct it at you Johnny (I’m sure the nature of your question intimates that you listen!) to anyone who wishes to play along, try and develop an ear which “hears” what the tune is doing.
Well Johnny I do hope you have a wonderful time exploring the good advice supplied here, and you have a fun time playing.
Best wishes
Brian x
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
thanks, Johnny.... I didn't automatically assume you didn't know the music, and was speaking more generally.
Interesting about TamLin.... I play it as a tune in DADGAD (as I do most actual tunes) but play accompaniment in dropped D. There are times I am with a fiddler at a session who loves to play the tune, and she will go into it from something else, figuring I will revert to tune playing, forgetting I need to re-tune... I am in the wrong tuning for melody. It can be done of course in Dropped D, but I am not prepared with the Dropped D version. So I have to back it, though still get in a lot of melody notes, but find it a tune that is much easier to play as melody than to back. For example, that Bb, in backing it, playing that note makes everything sound wonderfully right. It is so fleeting, that it is awkward to my ear to play as a chord, so I note it instead, en route to where the F chord should be (though I often just note that with thumbpick too).
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Johnny, Click on my user name, and in my profile you will see an article on accompanying this music, including information that I have picked up over the years, from fellow musicians, teachers, and this website. It contains a lot of information that I was writing in response to questions like yours, and I finally decided to just collect it all in one place. I hope you find some useful facts and opinions there, and there are also some suggestions for folks (like coyotebanjo) who can support you as you study further. And always listen to irisnevins on this site, she is the best!
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Yes.... Al has great thoughts on all this. I have a huge bunch of notes, used thus far for workshop handouts. Trying to think of another way now, it's grown to about 27 pages, and still adding to it.... perhaps a PDF down the line. For classes it's a nightmare, having to keep printing it out repeatedly for each person. If that ever happens I will get it more organized and post a pdf somehow. Keeping in mind it is just one person's opinions and feelings on accompaniment, not gospel. There are as many different ways as players.
It's from a class I have dubbed, since Banjo Burke Weekend, "Beyond Keys and Chord Charts, Techniques To Increase Speed Agility And Fluidity". The Burke weekend was great because we had a long time, three classes, to delve into the basic "one finger slide (on guitar, not bouzouki, Johnny) that is the basis for all my playing. It is a lot easier than it looks, and transcends all levels and can be used for flatpicking and fingerpicking, strumming, Dropped D or DADGAD. It's a technique thing and easily taught. The only real problem is, people pick it up almost instantly, and do it fine in front of me but don't go practice once at home. They revert to the old ways they had, often much more difficult and convoluted. I remind them it is a lesson, not a transfusion. In class they are amazed how easy it is. We also pinpoint trouble spots, and correct them, and honestly most backers get into trouble because they are working too hard....as in trying to do a strum for every single melody note. That is the cause of most timing loss. So we work with making use of the natural sustain of the soundbox to fill in (this works for bouzouki too) and take a long strum and let it ring sometimes. There are a lot of interesting things a backer can do, including ways of doing a "save" for a melody player who messed up. It's all part of the depths of backing and lots of fun, the many ways you can use it,
Having never been taught to play (and hopefully no one will run and have a bit of fun with that statement, LOL) I made up a whole series of combinations of sounds since childhood. They were nameless, no A B C etc. or anything. I discovered these wonderful things called chord charts later....but by then my odd ways had taken root. I do believe my odd way with mainly one, but sometimes two or three figner slides, and making use of the open strings surrounding is light years easier than proper chording. I do use chords though as stress notes .... but they are the "exclamation points" of the playing, not the basis of it. The basis ends up melody, partial melody, counter melody. I actually picked that up by listening to great Irish piano backers, not guitar players.... unless you count Martin Carthy, he does a lot of that too. We string backers can benefit greatly by listening to the likes of Charlie Lennon and Felix Dolan to name a few. Listen to how they handle the tunes in the background. Way more interesting than alternating three chords (which again, can work done well). Perhaps it's just due to the nature of the piano, but they do not sit on one chord very long, and tend to add melody and counter melody bits, often as a lead into the next chord.
If the bouzouki were in DADG it could work on that also I believe. I've been asked by a few to put up some youtubes of the one "finger slide" that works so well for this music. Slowly! I do have a few up with fiddler Kathleen Collins Put both our names in the search), they are not perfect .... I didn't even know the tunes, and she was trying a new fiddle (note there is a price tag hanging off it!) that is being sent back for being too squeaky and there was a little something with the fingerboard throwing off the intonation a little bit here and there. Anyway, is was casual, just for fun, I just got a Flip, so we figured we'd toss them up there. Anyway, there is one that is all guitar, one with just harp, and another with harp first, then guitar, the Cape Breton set.
I am in the process of charting the basic moves, on a guitar grid, and have them as alternate suggestions instead of full chords. Kind of a mess at the moment though! Still, they would be just a basis. Backing each tune is different, as different as the tunes themselves are. No one formula fits all, not ever. The charts are just a starting point.
Good luck.... Johnny, just keep at it and enjoy it!
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Congratulations, Johnny Madra, now you've done it. Your comments caught the attention of "Irisnevins", the Energizer Bunny Rabbit of accompanists. Once she starts writing about accompanying music, she just seems to keep going and going and going.....
Irisnevins, as for the person who just wanted to learn two chords in each key so they could be right half the time and wrong the other half of the time, you did the right thing by sending them elsewhere. I would have acted the same way with a student who asked for that small an amount of training.
I try to avoid playing the melody at all and just play bass notes and chords because I feel as if I am working both with and against the melody player or players at the same time. I don't want to play the same thing as the melody players. Instead, I am trying to do something that fits with what they are playing but is different. I am trying to make sure that the different parts of the musical "machine" fit together properly so it doesn't all collapse and fall apart.
Yes knowing the tunes is very helpful if you are a backup musician/sideman and I do play them when I am at home practicing by myself. I don't play tunes at the local sessions because there are enough melody players at the local sessions. I just accompany the other musicians (using that term rather loosely)
After playing this music for about fifteen years, it seems to me as if many of these tunes need more than just two chords or three chords to do them justice and accompany them properly. Since we don't use sheet music (otherwise known as the "dots") at the local sessions, after I get home from the session, I will sometimes check the sheet music and compare it to what I heard and played at the session. Most of the time, my musical instincts concerning the key and chords turns out to have been correct.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
mmmmm Properly mmmm a very loaded statement I know and have listened to many people play all different not all good who all thought they played properly.
I would go and find a player you like and talk to him or her
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Dave,,,, great idea. The player I found and loved was Martin Carthy, who I got to talk to briefly in the 70s. The other idol was and still is John Renbourne ...who I actually taught a tune to once! That was terrifying, and he could play it better than me in about five minutes! Still I love to watch these two play though they are not around much. Thank Heaven for Youtube!
i will TRY to keep it short. Being a tech writer for my "real job" of paper marbling, well, once it starts, it flows. Please, I pray for writer's block!!
I have played guitar improperly for 47 years. Since I was a very young thing. it was there in the house, actually was my neighbor's abandoned classical Goya. She could never play, no one in my house played. I copied tunes i heard without seeing them played, nor any dots. I admit, I play wrong if you want to get into technique, but also developed a technique that is easier, because it follows the path of least resistance to a full sound. Somehow it seems to work. I just have peoples' feedback to go by. If they didn't like it, and not all like that style, I'd be changing it to what people suggested, and at times I have taken critiques very much to heart and changed certain things over the years. Sometimes your critics are your best teachers.
Still, playing "Properly" ...when the Guitar Police say I don't use enough fingers or, Heaven forbid, rest (not support, but REST, when not used) my middle finger on the sound board, often called POSTING, I just ask..."did it sound OK though". Well...um yes, but...you're supposed to do it THIS other way. Well Django Reinhardt had just two fingers... really, can't technique not be tweaked a bit?
Anyway, I play harp now too, both melody and backing, and have discovered that the harp police make the guitar police seem like a walk in the park. Trouble is they are all right and so many have a different "proper technique" and hand position etc. , and among them, many super players too. Still, I must say, when someone says something is wrong, I do try it their way, seriously... sometimes they are right or have a suggestion that makes it easier to play. One shouldn't be closed minded to trying the suggested "Proper" ways, maybe one will fit you better, or possibly a combination of a few of them.
People's hands are all a bit different. On harp especially, what your thumb is like can sometimes make it easier or harder to play, one great harper said. She said those with a straight rather than curved thumb have an easier time of it. I have curved.....drat....
OK....better sign off. I actually swore off posting on these backing threads, so don't know what happened....sigh....work is slow.... have a little idle time on my hands!!
Iris
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Iris, Please don't ever think you talk too much, your inputs are ALWAYS appreciated. And if you ever do get your notes organized, I for one would be happy to see them!
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
"Energizer Bunny Rabbit of accompanists" - I love that description. Well done again Iris for giving so much well thought out informnation. When's the book being published??
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Donough
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Ha ha Donough.... you never know. I just wonder who would want it.
I have Sarah McQuaid coming next month for a concert and visit. She wrote the DADGAD Guitar Book. We have a lot of similar odd ideas like listening to piano players and adapting it to guitar. I was surprised to find she thought the same.... usually people think I have gone mad.
There is so much more really to backing than keys and chord charts.... some of what I have jotted down, and cover in a class where there is a long time, is how to mimic the slides and fluidity of the flute and fiddle on guitar and be right there with them when they do it, or hold a long note using the sustain of the box when they hold a note. There is so much fun to be had in accompaniment that I actually love it more than melody playing. When you really get into it deeply it really is amazing. Many think we back because we can't play melody, but every truly great backer I have ever met is also am able melody player, but they back because they love it more,... not because it's dumbed down and easier than melody.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Hi Iris.
Lovely writing again.
I’ve been lucky enough to play with some wonderful guitarists back in England and Ireland before coming out here to Tassie, and meeting some more.
Donough who has just written has invited me to visit but I live on a very humble income and haven’t had the chance to meet up yet, but I’ve heard wonderful comments about his playing.
The reason I’m sending this post is as an example of what you last wrote for Johnny.
The two clips I’m putting I think exemplify what you were just explaining to Johnny, about playing across and with counter melody. I don’t claim them to be anything special but it might give Johnny some ideas. The guitar player is Tom Dunlop; he's from Belfast.
http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIPyeeY9xfY
http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUjM8woSAQk
Thank you again for your lovely contribution, you put it so much more logically than I could ever hope to attain.
Best wishes to all, and happy playing Johnny
Brian x
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Why didn't the sites come up in brown so people can link?
I have said previously that I am limited with computers,
Sorry folks
brian x
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIPyeeY9xfY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUjM8woSAQk
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
It's great to find such a nice discussion about guitar playing. I have some clips of guitar in various styles and accompaniments, mostly in CGCGCD on the Celtic stuff. Plenty of 3-chord tricks there! Joel
http://hahastudios.co.uk/listen-and-watch
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by McDermott
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Thank you Ethical!
I should add that I didn't state that the tunes were not in the range of Johnny's question. It was to amplify the comments from Iris about timing and being melodic.
I do so love guitarists to be melodic, and not purely percussive. It's a great pleasure to listen to and absorb, and it can add so much richness, depth and variation to a session.
Lovely stuff too Joel
Thanks agan
Brian x
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by briantheflute
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Thank you all very much for the all advice and encouragement in this thread. Much appreciated.
Go raibh maith agaibh uile!
Johnny Madra.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Johnny Madra
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Joel McDermott....Genius level!!! I don't have time to listen to all, but Nine Barrow Hounds.... (I hope I remembered the title right!!) floored me!!! Where are you from, where can one see you?
Well as long as people are posting youtubes...let me put these here with a disclaimer.... these clips with Kathleen Collins were on the fly off the cuff, I had not heard most of the tunes before this moment, so a few flubs,,,,,and her fiddle if you look closely, it has a price tag...she was trying it out. She is fiddle shopping, this one is too shrill and has some intonation issues with the fingerboard she was trying to compensate for.
I just got a Flip for Christmas and we were playing with it. We have a concert coming up this Sat. at IAANJ ( www.iaanj.com if you want to come, just show up at the door by 7:30 ) and thought, why not put up the tunes so people can get an idea of what to expect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UYUtQMtVAs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILG-14HSdJk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBMYG7o0KEY
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Irisnevins, I think you should just go ahead and write as many thousands or millions of words about accompanying as you want to write because what I have read by you makes a lot of sense to this piano player.
"Energizer Bunny Rabbit Of Accompanists" was meant to be a half-serious, half-joking compliment.
I disagree and I don't think you should pray for writer's block when you are writing about musical techniques such as accompanying. Instead, I would encourage you to keep writing until you have enough for a whole book whether or not you ever intend or try to publish a book.
Laurence
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Thanks for the links, is that 'the' Kathleen Collins? Great to hear that she still plays.... She is one of my fiddle heroes!
Is she going to record another album? been a while since the last one eh!
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
You may be a bit behind the times, o "wicked" one - see link below :
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/3509
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Kenny
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Thanks Kenny, understatement though, Im well behind the times!! Anyhow, I just bought it from Claddagh. cheers.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Just to be a bit of a argumentative person at this guitar love in festival , the OP actually mentions that he was going to play the' three chord trick 'on the Bouzouki
I think the ' three chord trick 'sounds better on the guitar rather than on a GDAE tuned Bouzouki . Anyone else agree?
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Fauxcelt... thanks....actually the thing is I am a writer on my work, paper marbling, a tech writer for magazines and five books. I also produced the James Morrison Book for Vernonica McNamara
http://marblingpaper.com/JamesMorrisonBook.html
My real fear is that I will bore people with being too wordy! I eventaully may have to organize all the thoughts into a book, it's getting too big for handouts.
AND..... yes wicked....that is THE Kathleen Collins, she is just out with a new CD after way too long, called My Book Of Songs. It was produced by Gabriel Donohue ( a great guitar, bouzouki and piano player himself) and he backed her on multiple instruments.
You can email her directly for a copy, include name address and phone #. Email: setdancing1@optonline.net she will get back to you. A website is in the works but not up yet.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
You're welcome, Brian. I really enjoyed the clips. Lovely, relaxed playing from the two of you. You must know each other well.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Yes.... Brian....meant to respond, very nice playing from both of you. Your accompanist gets it about the music!
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by irisnevins
Re: 3 chord trick in Minor, Mixoldian, Dorian?
Instead of "organ"izing my thoughts, it would be more appropriate for me to "piano"ize my thoughts.
If you ask my wife, she will tell you that my brain is dis"organ"ized although I am a piano player.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by fauxcelt