Here's a hypothetical situation for you all to consider:
Imagine a beginner level session somewhere in the United States where there aren't a whole lot of good traditional players around. The session is populated by, let's say, a few fiddles, a bodhran, a guitar, and a couple of other instruments that are not particularly popular. So that no one feels left out and perhaps to avoid any leadership struggles, these folks go around and around the table taking turns starting sets of tunes. No one starts tunes when it's not their turn. There is little conversation between the players, and therefore only short pauses between the ragged sets.
Now, one of these good folks starts a set of jigs (when it's his turn, of course.) The second two are hackneyed session warhorses, but the first has a very unusual unfamilliar melody. At the end of the set, one of the other folks querries as to the origin of the first unusual jig, commenting that it sounded more Breton than Irish, and was it perhaps a Breton tune. No, claims the set starter, it's an Irish tune. Really? replies the querrier, it doesn't sound Irish in the least. A brief discuccion/argument ensues about what it means for a tune to sound Irish.
So my question for you lot is this: Can some novice pen a tune and claim that it's an Irish tune? Sure the tune is being played in something called an "Irish session," but it does not resemble Irish music, except that it is in jig time with the right number of bits. I say that this composition is most definitely not an Irish tune, and to call it one is an insult to an incredible body of music that we all play and love.
But then what about newer compositions that we do consider to be Irish music? Liz Carroll tunes, for example, have a Liz-Carroll-ness to them, but they seem (to me, anyway) to be still inside of some parameters (whatever they are) that make them sound Irish. Reavy and Lennon tunes sound Irish. But then some Irish musicians write total s h i t e tunes and record them and innocent folks who don't know any better learn them off, thinking they're playing trad. And what about Riverdance? That's Irish music, at least in that it was composed by an Irish person, but it's not trad, right? It's running through my head right now, reminding me of so many sessions where clueless punters would request Riverdance.
I think I can know an Irish tune when I hear one, whether it's a recent compostion or not. But I'm an arrogant b a s t a r d who's always right about everything.
Sorry if it wasn't clear above -- the set starter had in fact written the Breton-sounding tune, and was offended that someone might consider it to be not an Irish tune.
For the most part, and by that I mean 99%, I would say that anyone who "writes" a reel, jig, hornpipe, etc, should not be considered ITM, nor should be introduced in a session unless invited to do so. Now, personally, I would not lend any legitimacy to a tune unless it was written by someone who is obviously close to the music and tradition, so that almost certainly means an Irishman (or woman) in Ireland. This is not to say that nobody else could write an ITM tune, or an Irish-sounding tune, but honestly, there are about 100,000 ITM tunes in existence (I did my research, and I'm within 10 tunes or so of being dead-on, don't argue with me), so how many more tunes can there be that don't sound pretty close to one that already exists?
That's my amateur perspective.
That said, I was listening to Chieftains Celebration yesterday, and there's a tune called Boffyflow and Spike. A reel-ish number, in that general tempo anyway, and unless I am mistaken I'm thinking Van Morrison composed it. It's a three-parter, and the first part is starkly different in mode and style than the following two parts. The first part almost has a middle-eastern or eastern-European flavor to it. Does anyone know if I'm right about the authorship? And if so, would this be considered an ITM tune since the Chieftains are playing it?
I am a North American and I play and listen to mostly Irish music all of the time. If I write a tune, it usually has some characteristic similarities to Trad or modern music that resembles trad, I'm talking about what potentially is a resemblance to a resemblance. I generally don't consider my tunes to be Irish, because I am not Irish in any way other than ancestry. Irish is a nationality, not a genre.
Of course I am in a band that calls themselves Irish Traditional, but that is not my choice. I think it's a loaded term that I like to avoid. Tons of American music has been written that resembles Irish music in areas of Irish diaspora in the age before recording and the commercialization of music, and today we call it Old time. And in the old times they just called it music.
At the session I attend we play a handful of non Irish tunes (unless you count reels which are arguably all Scottish) and we talk about whether a tune is Irish/ Scottish/ American frequently. What bands have recorded it, etc. If A tune has Irish origin then it is Irish. When the word Irish is used in the context of discussing tunes, the word 'origin' should be inferred. Irish Trad musicians also play tunes from other cultures frequently. To me, a tune is a tune, and Irish Trad like American Trad has borrowed from all over the place. Many tunes you may associate with your favorite Irish musician or session, or band, may not be Irish at all other than the fact that they have been assimilated into the Irish repertoire.
As a fellow North American with naught but ancestral ties to Eire (and pretty removed at that) I'm right there with you. I would never be so presumptious. My feeling is if someone "writes" a reel, jig, etc, I have no problem with it, but I would find it inappropriate to try and introduce it at a session, and even more inappropriate to call in an Irish tune. If I composed a song or tune, for example, and I was at a session at which I was a regular, and felt comfortable with the group, and they seemed to respect me overall, then I guess it would be okay to try and introduce it. "I tried to compose a jig, don't know if it's any good or not, do you folks mind if I play it for you?" Something like that, and then refrain from being hurt if they never ask you to play it again. I suppose that would be okay.
New original tunes get introduced into sessions and to other players all the time, and if you have a problem with that, then where do you think all the old tunes came from?!
Sure it'd be silly to call a new tune "Irish," but there's nothing wrong with writing tunes that fit within the Irish traditional style. Have a look at a reel I wrote, Winter Queen, for an example of how this works: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4979
If you're passionate about a genre of music and play it a lot, and you have an ounce of creativity in you, chances are one day you'll make up a tune that fits solidly within that genre. What could possibly be wrong or spurious about that? How do you think all those great tunes by Paddy Fahy, Josie McDermott, Vincent Broderick, Sean Reid, Sean Ryan, and Paddy O'Brien got into the traditional in the first place?
How does one quantify what makes a tune Irish? I ask this in all earnestness: does it lie within the ineffable twists and turns of a melodic archetype that can easily be compared to other melodies of similar nature, and thus by extension be labeled Irish or if newly penned, in-the-Irish-style?
I've played trad Irish tunes for close to twenty years; when inspired, I may write a tune "in the Irish style". I would never dare to call the composition an 'Irish tune'.
This comes not from ego, but from white hot inspiration (call it an Irish Muse if you will), where a tune will spring up out of the ether and into my head. But the melody is derived out of a firm grounding in having played Irish trad for many years, from having listened to and assimilated countless tunes of Irish origin, and from listening to the styles of of many historical and living traditional Irish players on recordings.
When I go about my daily routines, the music is always running in my head, like a constant soundtrack. The notes sometimes rearrange themselves of their own accord and come out in the form of a new tune, albeit in the Irish style.
From having assimilated the 'essence' of what an Irish melody 'should' or 'should not' sound like, I then edit or delete the tune to prevent unintentional reproduction of an actual trad tune. But ability to properly edit comes from having been immersed in the style of choice long enough to know what is or is not 'in the style'.
"But then some Irish musicians write total s h i t e tunes and record them and innocent folks who don't know any better learn them off, thinking they're playing trad."
Yes, Chrishty, this happens a lot. I'd like to think this a more a function of the unbridled energy of youth + cubic or quadradic chops + a little doodling on instrument of choice, and voilà,
you have the birth of a new tune, hot off the presses, which has legs directly proportional to the fame of the hot young Irish trad musician.
More often than not, the tune is merely a platform to showcase the latest golden boy/girl's pyrotechnic ability and not necessarily grounded in 'Irish tradition', for what that's worth.
[sound of phone ringing....sound of recorded operator's voice:
"Please deposit 25 cents for the next three minutes..."]
Well, gotta go, I'm outta change at the moment...
See all y'all later.
Just curious, Jimmy, what research led you to the 100K number?
Most estimates I've seen top out somewhere south of 10K. Not that it matters much either way - either number is rather more than I'm going to learn, but 100,000 tunes seems a little... um... exuberant.
On the topic at hand, I'd suggest that the best thing to do when you write a tune is to slip it into a set of tunes and attribute it to Paddy Fahy if anyone asks. It doesn't matter much whether it's a real Irish tune in principle if people like it enough to learn it and play it, and it doesn't matter how authentically Irish the composer was, if the tune's no good.
What makes a tune traditional, really, is the process of being played and learned in a tradtition, just as what makes an English word an English word is the fact that English speakers grew up using it as if it were an English word.
Forgive my .02 but as far as I've been able to figure out, the first qualifier of a "traditional" tune is that it is in the public domain. No one can lay claim to ownership of it and therefore collect royalties.
Write a tune and teach it to your friends. And if people are still playing it in 50 years or whatever the length of time is for a tune to become royalty free, THEN you've written a traditional tune. And it'll be in whatever tradition the people who play it, say it is... cuz you'll be pushin' daisies by then anyway.
Fishmonger nails it on the head. It's a fool's errand to try and define what makes a tune an Irish traditional tune. If a composed tune is good enough and Irish enough then over time it will be assimilated into the tradition via the wisdom of the crowd. That will only happen to a tiny minority of tunes. The Irish-ness of the composer has nothing to do with it.
As to whether a newly-composed Breton-sounding jig is going be be tolerated, well that's down to the individual session. I would think that most would be pretty easy-going about that sort of thing, but some wouldn't.
Irish tune, Scottish tune, American tune.......who cares? It really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if someone in a Berlin "Irish" session is playing a self composed 7/8 tune in Eb minor on a tuba, there will still be people all over the world playing well known tunes in the traditional way. Tunes come and go, the best ones stick and it makes no difference that thousands of tune are played briefly or recorded and never heard of again.
All that matters is that the good tunes survive. When learning tunes I make no distinction whether they are Scottish, Irish, Cape Breton, trad or brand new. If you like a tune play it and don't listen to the naysayers.
In our Scottish session we could very easily play nothing but trad Irish tunes for 3 or 4 hours (not that we do obviously). Does that make it an Irish session. No, not to us. We're Scots playing tunes in a wee pub in the Scottish Highlands, to us it's a Scottish session. Notes don't have nationalities.
You wrote above:
"So my question for you lot is this: Can some novice pen a tune and claim that it's an Irish tune? Sure the tune is being played in something called an "Irish session," but it does not resemble Irish music, except that it is in jig time with the right number of bits."
I would say, then, that it is perhaps not a good tune, or not in any of the styles usually associated with being truly Irish and traditional (I am trusting your judgement, I have not heard it).
You further wrote:
"I say that this composition is most definitely not an Irish tune, and to call it one is an insult to an incredible body of music that we all play and love."
I will suggest that we may have a matter of terminology here, "irish" in that composer's mind being merely a tune "in the irish traditional style" or influenced by it.
If so, then IMHO it is merely Semantics, rip it all you want. half-full, half-empty.
None of us is a perfect communicator.
As for the insult factor, insulting to whom? Or what? someone likes irish music, and tries to express themselves through it. This is bad?
Do you not recall when you first caught the fever?
25 yars ago I heard an old man make magic on a fiddle, and I just HAD to learn it.
The ols man actually seemed pleased.
Also: If someone saw me forging in my shop and decided right then and there that they wanted to be a blacksmith, too, I would be VERY flattered, and probably a bit humbled.
You wrote above:
"So my question for you lot is this: Can some novice pen a tune and claim that it's an Irish tune? Sure the tune is being played in something called an "Irish session," but it does not resemble Irish music, except that it is in jig time with the right number of bits."
I would say, then, that it is perhaps not a good tune, or not in any of the styles usually associated with being truly Irish and traditional (I am trusting your judgement, I have not heard it).
You further wrote:
"I say that this composition is most definitely not an Irish tune, and to call it one is an insult to an incredible body of music that we all play and love."
I will suggest that we may have a matter of terminology here, "irish" in that composer's mind being merely a tune "in the irish traditional style" or influenced by it.
If so, then IMHO it is merely Semantics, rip it all you want. half-full, half-empty.
None of us is a perfect communicator.
As for the insult factor, insulting to whom? Or what? someone likes irish music, and tries to express themselves through it. This is bad?
Do you not recall when you first caught the fever?
25 yars ago I heard an old man make magic on a fiddle, and I just HAD to learn it.
The man actually seemed pleased.
If someone saw me forging in my shop and decided right then and there that they wanted to be a blacksmith, too, i would be VERY flattered, and probably a bit humbled.
I'm lucky enough to play regularly with a dear old man who was born in Clifden, Galway, and has played music his whole life. He smiles and winks when I play some old stuff, and says that's good. When I play some newfangled thing, he tightly grins politely and doesn't say much after.
When I've picked out enough of some old chestnut he's been playing to be able to hang with him, or even better, if I start the tune first, he smiles at me after and always says "You know, that's one of the oldest tunes..."
The joke is, he says that a lot about them. Seems like there's a lot of "one of the oldest tunes..."
Anyway, I use his reactions as a judge to what is good. By no means am I some fascist that will only play old tunes and never consider anything new, but when you're lucky enough to have someone like him around, it's hard not to try to please him with the old stuff, so my tastes have gone accordingly.
Now Will, that being said, nothing would make me happier than to be the old man in the pub much later in life and have some young whippersnapper crank out "Bang Your Frog On The Sofa" for me. I'd smile after and say "Oh sure, that's an old one, good tune that. You know, I used to know the guy who wrote that..."
..and to answer the OP, in the situation listed, no, that's not some old Irish tune. That's some newfangled tune somebody just cooked up. Now if it catches on and people keep playing it over the years and so on...well, you get the picture.
So the question goes back again to what was said previously: "Is it a good tune?" That's all that maters. There's a huge slagpile of crap tunes. Go click on 'Tunes' up there and check them out. [rim shot]
Something in this thread reminded me of the Robbie O'Connell song about his first few gigs in America, fresh of the airplane, where he had some trouble establishing his credentials as an Irish singer. It goes:
"You're not Irish, you can't be Irish,
You don't know Danny Boy.
Or Tura Lura Lura, or even Irish Eyes....."
The reverse often applies, as well. I have seen, admittedly mainly on American Websites, many tunes of proveable non-Irish origin described as "Irish" mainly because the contributor was too lazy to establish its origin. One such was "The shores of Erin", written in the 50's as "The Shoals of Herring", another was John Connolly's "Fiddler's Green", written about a Grimsby fisherman in the 1960's. There's also the "Irish" theme tune to "The Archers" English radio programme "Barwick Green", written by an Englishman about an English Village!
Just to set the record straight, he didn't ever claim it was an Irish tune. He asked you why you thought it wasn't. It probably would have been better (i.e. more productive) to give him a real answer rather than the vague one you did and rather than come onto a public place and start talking about it inaccurately. Also, as someone who has spent as much time in Brittany as you say you've spent in Ireland, it wasn't even close to vaguely Breton sounding. I first thought it was Canadian. Finally, he never claimed he wrote it. Someone else had to tell you afterward.
I like you, Chris, I really do, and I'm certainly no fan of the session in question, but I have to wonder why you go if you clearly don't enjoy it.
Mark - hereabouts, I hear people saying "Breton" to refer to tunes from Cape Breton, not from Brittany. Confused me, too, and still does sometimes, but I suspect that may have been Chrishty's usage. If so, you both thought it was Canadian.
IMO, if the bloke who wrote it is Irish, it's an Irish tune. End of story. All my tunes are "Canadian tunes", even if a couple of them were meant to sound Irish-ish.
What if the bloke is Northern Irish and British and European? Or Northern Irish and Irish and European (continent)? Or Canadian and North American (continent).
Where do you draw the line? As the cartographer asks.
"hereabouts, I hear people saying "Breton" to refer to tunes from Cape Breton, not from Brittany."
Hmm. I live in pretty much the same 'hereabouts' (though I spend more time on the northern side of town), and I don't recall having heard anybody refer to Cape Breton without using both words: "Cape Breton" (though, now that I think about it, they do often say the word "Cape" very quickly, leaving it sounding suspiciously like "keBreton").
I'm pretty sure Chrishty meant "Brittany" (since I think I remember him telling the story in person), but it hardly matters. I think his point was that it clearly didn't sound, to him, like something he would have called "Irish".
While I couldn't put my finger on it, I feel reasonably confident that I could recognize (or at least make an educated guess at) an "Irish tune" from a "Scots tune", and even perhaps tell the difference between an older tune and one written in the late 20th century--but I'm less confident of that.
On the greater topic of starting tunes you wrote at a session: Martin Wynne, I'm told, used to not admit having written tunes until several years after other people were already playing them. But clearly anything Martin Wynne would have written would likely have sounded convincingly Irish. On the other hand, if you're going to run a tune you wrote up the proverbial flagpole without telling anyone it's yours, you need to be prepared for the possible smack-down. I've heard the question "Did you write that?" used as a backhanded remark at sessions, where it often really means:
"Sheesh, that tune was weird. It didn't sound like anything that anybody would actually bother to learn... But YOU clearly learned it, so the only reason I can think you'd want to play it is that you wrote it, and are hoping we'll all start playing it so you can come around later an claim it as your own for fame and fortune... well, a certain amount of fame anyway... So which is it? Do you have questionable taste in choosing tunes to learn, or are you being sneaky and trying to use us to further your traditional street-cred?"
as a former cartographer . . . cartographers never re-create the real world, we merely attempt to represent physical & cultural aspects of locations on maps & globes.
So, as far as the geographer is concerned, music would be represented in a similar way. In regards to *physical location*, music written in Ireland could be regarded as Irish music. This is fairly cut & dry. Cultural aspects are vastly more open to interpretation. Location & place (two distinct things to geographers) may or may not be significant in using the term *Irish* to describe someone's tune if considering music in cultural terms.
Physical geography is often used by cultural geographers, though the former tends to base itself of math & science. The latter is a sticky wicket.
Kerri Brown is correct, if the mapmaker is drafting a map using locational characteristics alone.
Llig's mapmaker introduces cultural characteristics & as a result his map is not a map in the convintional sense. Could be a *thematic* map. You would have a difficult time using Llig's map to find the nearest pub. ;)
"I feel reasonably confident that I could recognize (or at least make an educated guess at) an "Irish tune" from a "Scots tune"
Despite living stateside?
Drowsy Maggie. Scots or Irish?
Lads of Laois (as in recent discussion) Socts of Irish?
O'Neill' March/Stool of Repentance/Old Woman Wrapped up in a Blanket (depending if you are from Ireland, Scotland or Hebrides)
etc, etc, etc.
If you were at Scottish sessions, unless in a stylized area, I wouldn't rate your chances of distinguishing where the tune is from. Irish tunes will sound Scottish just as Mrs MacLeod sounds Irish in an Irish session
There are of course obvious distinctions like Shetland tunes, Strathspeys (though they can sometimes be interchangeable with Highlands), pipe tunes, Skinner style tunes, and in Ireland Polkas, Slides and tunes played in a distinctive regional style. But there is also a huge grey area of reels and jigs played in session style that are pretty much homeless.
That was the first and likely only time I'll darken the door of that session. I went because I got an email about it and was starved for music.
I thought I portrayed the events reasonably acurately -- at least the salient points of the hypothetical situation. I suppose I took the defensiveness of the composer as evidence that he/she thought it was in fact an Irish tune. And it became very clear, long before I was told, that it was their composition. Anyway, I didn't intend for any innacuracy, and I was trying to keep it hypothetical-ish.
The reason I posted this question is exactly because I couldn't give a precise answer to the question "what's not Irish about it?" To my ear, it was obvious. Yet I couldn't (not wouldn't) articulate why. I think that some of the responses here are incorrect in saying outright or suggesting that there's no point in trying to figure it out. Bogman's right to a degree -- there's certainly lots of overlap between Scots and Irish, but there are also lots of reels that are clearly Irish to my ear, even if played with a Scottish accent. And lots of music or tunes or whatever doesn't sound Irish, even when played in an "Irish style" and in an Irish music context (and even if I'm drunk.) The tune that inspired this post falls into this category.
There are some tunes where it's fairly obvious and some it's not. Some tunes you KNOW are modern or Scottish or whatever and others could be from any time, anywhere. In certain cases there are bleedingly obvious flags. Like if it has weird syncopation, it's probably modern.
And does it matter? What if I wrote a tune (lucky for you all, this isn't likely to happen)? I'm an American living in Scotland playing mostly Irish music on the uilleann pipes? What the hell would you call that?
Yeah, me writing a tune would pretty much fall into that category. I don't know if it would be Scottish or Irish or American or what but it would definitely add to what SWFL called the "slagpile of crap tunes" on this website.
Haha.... I wish it were joke. Happened to me over the weekend in a session with people who know squillions more tunes than I do... I found the *one bloody* tune they didn't know, which of course was a five parter. Nothing so scary as the accidental solo of a five part jig in front of players who are a million times better than you. I've never prayed so hard for a trap door to open underneath my chair.
You picked three tunes that have been around the block long enough to become more ambiguous, but I'll take a stab at it (minus the powers of google, just to make it interesting):
Drowsy Maggie - 80% sure it's scots originally, though the Donegal folks have a lovely way around it.
Lads of Laois - only 50% sure it's Irish, but it sounds old and potentially pipe-friendly, so I'll punt. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear it's Scots originally (though I suspect it's played a bit differently). I'm used to hearing either Andy McGann play it, or Tommy Potts, both of whom give it a healthy dose of Irishness.
O'Neill' March/Stool of Repentance/Old Woman Wrapped up in a Blanket - 70% sure it's scots. Always sounded particularly highland-pipe-friendly to me.
And for the record, Mrs. MacLeod (and Lord MacDonald) always sounded like they were originally Scottish to me... Not that it matters much, since it's been such a staple of Connemara melodeon players, and one of my own favorite tunes, even though I play Irish music pretty exclusively.
I hate to burst your haggis, but Americans aren't all as Bubba-fied and ignorant of other culture's art and inflections as Hollywood makes us out to be.
Yeah, the one that always sounds like the player is switching to the Blarney pilgrim in the last part. Catches me (and at elast one other friend) every time
Geordi, Miss L, I don't mean any disrespect by saying 'stateside'. Geordis biog says playing Irish music 10 years and resides in the US. You say you play Irish music almost exclusively. I would argue that if you think you can identify the origin of the thousands of session tunes here in Scotland then you need to have a deep knowledge of Scottish music and regional styles. I am constantly finding tunes that surprise me by their origin.
Some others...
Colonel Frazier
Rakish Paddy
Greig' Pipes
Irish Washerwoman
Dinky's
Wind that shakes the Barley
Limerick Lasses
The Flogging
Speed the Plough
Rather than making a claim to reliably identify their origins, I'm pretty sure I said I could make a convincing guess most of the time; I think I've done pretty well so far (I've at least batted over 50%), though it feels like you're trying to get me to admit that popular "Irish" tunes are originally Scottish more than trying to find out if I can actually guess the difference. When it comes to old tunes, the different ways that have evolved around them make this exercise more complicated.
"The Irish Washerwoman" always felt too angular a tune to be originally Irish. Colonel Fraser, Greig's Pipes, and Dinky's are almost certainly Scottish as well. I'd say I'm 80% confident they're originally Scottish.
Speed the Plough is probably Scottish, but I might be biased against it because I'm so tired of hearing the the damn thing.
Rakish Paddy, and The Flogging Reel could easily be Scottish as well (60% confident), but my confidence diminishes further when we get to The Wind that Shakes the Barley and the Limerick Lasses (which could go either way as far as I can guess--but are probably Scottish, since everything else on this list was).
For some contrast, "Tom Ward's Downfall", "The Girl that Broke My Heart", "Dowd's Favorite", "Farewell to Erin" (DEFD DAA2), "The Blackthorn Stick", "the Steampacket", and "the Providence" are all older tunes that sound a bit more Irish than scottish to me, as do the better bulk of jigs (though again, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that there were some scottish tunes in that group either).
No, I'm not making any point about well known Irish tunes being Scottish. The reason I mentioned these tunes is because they are in a Scottish collection that's over 150 years old - but it's still no guarantee that they're Scottish. I think Dinky's is Irish and I'm pretty sure Farewell to Erin is Scottish as is Rakish Paddy. Despite knowing and hearing these tunes for years I don't know their origin.
The point I'm making is that these are the well known tunes. There are thousands of newer tunes that are far less obvious because the session scene and media here are merging many tunes styles into one.
"That's even without mentioning tunes common in Donegal."
I made a point of avoiding those, since the folks up there seem fairly comfortable with their cultural proximity to scotland, and often a bit culturally isolated from the CCE-centric Irish-traditional music fundamentalists in the greater Irish Republic (I remember talking to one fellow, an excellent fiddler, in Teelin, who expressed pride in not knowing a single Paddy O'Brien tune).
I guess my point was that there often is a discernible difference between "Scottish" and "Irish" tunes, and it seems totally reasonable that someone might hear a tune and feel that it was obviously not one or the other. Some tunes seem to absolutely shout "Scottish" (The High Road to Linton) or "Irish" (The Longford Collector, or Tom Ward's Downfall), whereas some are much more ambiguous.
I rather think the newer tunes are easier to tell apart, since they haven't been soaking in multiple cultures for over a century (resulting in different, similarly valid settings). The Wind that Shakes the Barley might have a much more Scottish version, but I couldn't really tell you with any confidence that the Scottish or Irish version was the original. It's been such a staple in Irish music, that it certainly qualifies as an Irish tune to me. Ed Reavy, Paddy Fahy or Sean Ryan tunes, on the other hand are obviously Irish--and even not terribly difficult to guess at the composer--and "the Mist Covered Mountain", in spite of being commonly mis-attributed to Junior Crehan, is clearly Scottish in origin.
Perhaps, more than telling accurately what the origin of a tune IS, it's often easy to guess at what it ISN'T, which is how this whole discussion started anyhoo.
I thought mist covered mountain (jig) was the tune that junior crehan made out of the scottish air (which appears to be based on, or at least related to Johnny's not Home from the Fair).
Actually I nevre noticed the similarity between both Mist Covered Mountains until it was pointed out to me (I hadn't known the name of the scottish air although i'd heard it many times). And they wereso obviously related when i was told (doh!).
My wife and daughter were learning the (scottish) gaelic song for the Mist covered Mountains (Chì Mi Na Mórbheanna) at their beginners gaelic class last year. Rachel (8) still walks about singing it sometimes.
"I rather think the newer tunes are easier to tell apart, since they haven't been soaking in multiple cultures for over a century"
We could go on all night but again I disagree. The folk who write the newer tunes tend to have been soaking in multiple cultures due to modern media etc.
Popular examples would be the Shaw tune MacLeods Farewell, or The Wedding Reel as it's known in Ireland, through Lunasa misnaming it on an album. The same with the Dr Angus tune Chloe's Pashion. Leo McCann has written very popular Scottish session tunes though he is Irish but a Scottish resident. Unless you knew the composer I would be surprised if anyone new their origin.
There are many Irish musicians playing and writing in Scotland whose tunes get accepted into the sessions without anyone noticing them to be different to the tunes written by other folk they play with.
Anyway, sorry but I'm bored with this. If you're ever at Scottish sessions in Scotland you might be surprised by the common ground between the tunes.
A good late-friend of mine, a native Irish Gaelic speaker who lived most of his life in Scotland (and to my surprise I found out at his funerla that he'd been born here before his family returned to Ireland) used to use the term Gaelic music to cover scottish and irish music. I like this term and the idea that both musical traditions are just as related and intemingled as Scottish and irish Gaelic, and it also hightens the music as the single strongest survival of Gaelic culture, certianly outisde of the Gaelic speaking areas.
This term has become how I think of scottish and irish music, although I don't normally use it when talking, or writing, it being too tied up with my friend in my memory. And as a much poorer musician and person than him, not to mention a non-Gaelic speaker, I don't comfortable with using it. But it is how I think of things.
Aw, thanks AlBrown and Random Notes. I stopped commenting a few years ago because everybody I met at sessions seemed to already have an opinion about me because I was always yammering away on here. I went to various religious and philosophical forums and started a blog to get my yammering out of my system. And started writing a few books. So, just passing through, but might as well have an argument while I'm here. :D
@ llig: "What if the bloke is Northern Irish and British and European? Or Northern Irish and Irish and European (continent)? Or Canadian and North American (continent). Where do you draw the line? As the cartographer asks."
Most people of mixed descent feel they have a primary cultural identity which usually corresponds to the country they were born and / or raised, so I still think "If it was written by an Irish person, it's an Irish tune" applies in the vast majority of cases. For the exceptions to that rule, I'd just say it's "a tune", or "a jig with an Irish feel to it".
@ random notes: "Kerri Brown is correct, if the mapmaker is drafting a map using locational characteristics alone.
Llig's mapmaker introduces cultural characteristics & as a result his map is not a map in the convintional sense. Could be a *thematic* map. You would have a difficult time using Llig's map to find the nearest pub. ;)"
Always been the pragmatic one, me. :D While I acknowledge there are significant regional stylistic differences, I think we often make too big a deal about them in "the New World". It's as if we fancy ourselves the custodians of Irish culture and think it will wither and die if we aren't intolerably snooty about it. That said, I've been known to say "That sounds like a Donegal tune" or "That player must be from Belfast (operative syllable: "fast") myself, but it's generally speculative - I'm just trying to pick my way through the foggy landscape of a culture that does not belong to me from thousands of kilometers away.
@ chris: "I wrote a jig/reel/hornpipe/tune" makes much more sense, to me anyway, your senses may vary."
The whole premise, "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune" already established the cultural map.
If the mapmaker is drafting a map using locational characteristics alone then a Donegal tune would be an Irish tune and a Belfast tune a British tune? Or indeed, all Irish tunes written before 1922 are actually british tunes.
Oh, now I wouldn't go quite that far. The geographical origins of different kinds of tunes is fascinating for dorks like myself, but I don't think it's worth considering whether or not some strange little ditty scribbled out by your American neighbour at an American session is "Irish".
I hope I didn't come across as defensive, if so, it was not intended. I went back and read my post and thought it might have sounded a bit snarky. I got the spirit of what you were saying. I don't go that particular session myself, other than the once. I can't abide bang boxes is why. It's a personal thing. I find the experience of sitting near one, or, horror of horrors, between two, a migraine inducing experience along the lines of having twin dwarfs playing triangles inside a metal tool shed. (No I have nothing against dwarves. . . unless they play triangle.) The local old timey sessions (which is where you'll find me until this town can put together a decent Irish session) seem to have largely found a way to keep them at a distance. Something I wish we could figure out.
If you write an Irish tune, it should go in a set of real Irish tunes without sounding incongruous with the others. I'd have thought that was common sense. It should have the right rhythm and pulse and an optimal speed compatible with that of existing tunes it might belong with. And, ideally, it should actually have a tune...
Same applies to writing Scottish music, or tunes in any of the other styles or sub-styles.
Breaking the mould of convention through some uprush of burgeoning compositional genius is probably some way down the road for most of us...
I think the composer in question has pretty clearly not been immersed in ITM long enough to under stand why their newly-composed wonder stuck out like a sore thumb. The operative phrase being "long enough to understand why". It's all about "paying your dues" so to speak. It's an unbelievably difficult thing to put a finger on exactly what it is that makes a tune sound "Irish", and said composer was apparently of an analytical mindset. To their ear, it only needed to be in the correct time/ rhythm & with the "right number of bits" to sound "Irish". I've composed a fair number of tunes myself, and to be honest, my earliest efforts are most definitely among the "slagpile of crap tunes". With time, I came to understand that Irish music is a CONSERVATIVE tradition, and that all the truly solid traditional tunes I was hearing all had certain cliches in common. These cliched turns of phrase, when put in the right order & played with the right feeling, are what makes an Irish tune sound "Irish". Until somebody with WAY too much time on their hands decides to collect & catalog these phrases, it will always be difficult to explain what it is that makes a tune sound "right". As I developed as a traditional musician over time, I stopped trying to be so damn clever when attempting to write in the traditional idiom, and instead asked some important questions of myself. "Would it fit in a set of older tunes?" "Can it be played easily on ANY traditional instrument?" "Could I see a well-respected traditional musician playing it, say, Joe Burke?" "Does it sound OLD?" After seeing that this site has indeed become a "slagpile of crap tunes" I decided to stop submitting my own compositions & will, for now, see if I can do my part to spread understanding of this music by posting TRADITIONAL tunes only. I see a lot of the usual suspects responding to this discussion, but if one "newbie" reads this & has a lightbulb go off, then we have collectively done a good thing for the music. We can only hope...
No worries. I'm quite sure I always come across as a bit of a fill-in-the-blank in my posts here. I find it entertaining to read people's comments about contentious topics.
"hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
"hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Here's a hypothetical situation for you all to consider:
Imagine a beginner level session somewhere in the United States where there aren't a whole lot of good traditional players around. The session is populated by, let's say, a few fiddles, a bodhran, a guitar, and a couple of other instruments that are not particularly popular. So that no one feels left out and perhaps to avoid any leadership struggles, these folks go around and around the table taking turns starting sets of tunes. No one starts tunes when it's not their turn. There is little conversation between the players, and therefore only short pauses between the ragged sets.
Now, one of these good folks starts a set of jigs (when it's his turn, of course.) The second two are hackneyed session warhorses, but the first has a very unusual unfamilliar melody. At the end of the set, one of the other folks querries as to the origin of the first unusual jig, commenting that it sounded more Breton than Irish, and was it perhaps a Breton tune. No, claims the set starter, it's an Irish tune. Really? replies the querrier, it doesn't sound Irish in the least. A brief discuccion/argument ensues about what it means for a tune to sound Irish.
So my question for you lot is this: Can some novice pen a tune and claim that it's an Irish tune? Sure the tune is being played in something called an "Irish session," but it does not resemble Irish music, except that it is in jig time with the right number of bits. I say that this composition is most definitely not an Irish tune, and to call it one is an insult to an incredible body of music that we all play and love.
But then what about newer compositions that we do consider to be Irish music? Liz Carroll tunes, for example, have a Liz-Carroll-ness to them, but they seem (to me, anyway) to be still inside of some parameters (whatever they are) that make them sound Irish. Reavy and Lennon tunes sound Irish. But then some Irish musicians write total s h i t e tunes and record them and innocent folks who don't know any better learn them off, thinking they're playing trad. And what about Riverdance? That's Irish music, at least in that it was composed by an Irish person, but it's not trad, right? It's running through my head right now, reminding me of so many sessions where clueless punters would request Riverdance.
I think I can know an Irish tune when I hear one, whether it's a recent compostion or not. But I'm an arrogant b a s t a r d who's always right about everything.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Chrishty
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Sorry if it wasn't clear above -- the set starter had in fact written the Breton-sounding tune, and was offended that someone might consider it to be not an Irish tune.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Chrishty
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
For the most part, and by that I mean 99%, I would say that anyone who "writes" a reel, jig, hornpipe, etc, should not be considered ITM, nor should be introduced in a session unless invited to do so. Now, personally, I would not lend any legitimacy to a tune unless it was written by someone who is obviously close to the music and tradition, so that almost certainly means an Irishman (or woman) in Ireland. This is not to say that nobody else could write an ITM tune, or an Irish-sounding tune, but honestly, there are about 100,000 ITM tunes in existence (I did my research, and I'm within 10 tunes or so of being dead-on, don't argue with me), so how many more tunes can there be that don't sound pretty close to one that already exists?
That's my amateur perspective.
That said, I was listening to Chieftains Celebration yesterday, and there's a tune called Boffyflow and Spike. A reel-ish number, in that general tempo anyway, and unless I am mistaken I'm thinking Van Morrison composed it. It's a three-parter, and the first part is starkly different in mode and style than the following two parts. The first part almost has a middle-eastern or eastern-European flavor to it. Does anyone know if I'm right about the authorship? And if so, would this be considered an ITM tune since the Chieftains are playing it?
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
It's not "traditional" if nobody else has ever played it before.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by sbhikes
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
I am a North American and I play and listen to mostly Irish music all of the time. If I write a tune, it usually has some characteristic similarities to Trad or modern music that resembles trad, I'm talking about what potentially is a resemblance to a resemblance. I generally don't consider my tunes to be Irish, because I am not Irish in any way other than ancestry. Irish is a nationality, not a genre.
Of course I am in a band that calls themselves Irish Traditional, but that is not my choice. I think it's a loaded term that I like to avoid. Tons of American music has been written that resembles Irish music in areas of Irish diaspora in the age before recording and the commercialization of music, and today we call it Old time. And in the old times they just called it music.
At the session I attend we play a handful of non Irish tunes (unless you count reels which are arguably all Scottish) and we talk about whether a tune is Irish/ Scottish/ American frequently. What bands have recorded it, etc. If A tune has Irish origin then it is Irish. When the word Irish is used in the context of discussing tunes, the word 'origin' should be inferred. Irish Trad musicians also play tunes from other cultures frequently. To me, a tune is a tune, and Irish Trad like American Trad has borrowed from all over the place. Many tunes you may associate with your favorite Irish musician or session, or band, may not be Irish at all other than the fact that they have been assimilated into the Irish repertoire.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Earl Cameron
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
what's the verdict on my 'Lisaniska' then?
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by lisaniska
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Earl -
As a fellow North American with naught but ancestral ties to Eire (and pretty removed at that) I'm right there with you. I would never be so presumptious. My feeling is if someone "writes" a reel, jig, etc, I have no problem with it, but I would find it inappropriate to try and introduce it at a session, and even more inappropriate to call in an Irish tune. If I composed a song or tune, for example, and I was at a session at which I was a regular, and felt comfortable with the group, and they seemed to respect me overall, then I guess it would be okay to try and introduce it. "I tried to compose a jig, don't know if it's any good or not, do you folks mind if I play it for you?" Something like that, and then refrain from being hurt if they never ask you to play it again. I suppose that would be okay.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Thing is, Chrishty, was that guy's tune *any good*?..
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by nicholas
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
New original tunes get introduced into sessions and to other players all the time, and if you have a problem with that, then where do you think all the old tunes came from?!
Sure it'd be silly to call a new tune "Irish," but there's nothing wrong with writing tunes that fit within the Irish traditional style. Have a look at a reel I wrote, Winter Queen, for an example of how this works: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4979
If you're passionate about a genre of music and play it a lot, and you have an ounce of creativity in you, chances are one day you'll make up a tune that fits solidly within that genre. What could possibly be wrong or spurious about that? How do you think all those great tunes by Paddy Fahy, Josie McDermott, Vincent Broderick, Sean Reid, Sean Ryan, and Paddy O'Brien got into the traditional in the first place?
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Chrishty-
How does one quantify what makes a tune Irish? I ask this in all earnestness: does it lie within the ineffable twists and turns of a melodic archetype that can easily be compared to other melodies of similar nature, and thus by extension be labeled Irish or if newly penned, in-the-Irish-style?
I've played trad Irish tunes for close to twenty years; when inspired, I may write a tune "in the Irish style". I would never dare to call the composition an 'Irish tune'.
This comes not from ego, but from white hot inspiration (call it an Irish Muse if you will), where a tune will spring up out of the ether and into my head. But the melody is derived out of a firm grounding in having played Irish trad for many years, from having listened to and assimilated countless tunes of Irish origin, and from listening to the styles of of many historical and living traditional Irish players on recordings.
When I go about my daily routines, the music is always running in my head, like a constant soundtrack. The notes sometimes rearrange themselves of their own accord and come out in the form of a new tune, albeit in the Irish style.
From having assimilated the 'essence' of what an Irish melody 'should' or 'should not' sound like, I then edit or delete the tune to prevent unintentional reproduction of an actual trad tune. But ability to properly edit comes from having been immersed in the style of choice long enough to know what is or is not 'in the style'.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
"But then some Irish musicians write total s h i t e tunes and record them and innocent folks who don't know any better learn them off, thinking they're playing trad."
Yes, Chrishty, this happens a lot. I'd like to think this a more a function of the unbridled energy of youth + cubic or quadradic chops + a little doodling on instrument of choice, and voilà,
you have the birth of a new tune, hot off the presses, which has legs directly proportional to the fame of the hot young Irish trad musician.
More often than not, the tune is merely a platform to showcase the latest golden boy/girl's pyrotechnic ability and not necessarily grounded in 'Irish tradition', for what that's worth.
[sound of phone ringing....sound of recorded operator's voice:
"Please deposit 25 cents for the next three minutes..."]
Well, gotta go, I'm outta change at the moment...
See all y'all later.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
I think Miss Lonelyhearts nailed it, and Nicholas asked the most important question - was it any good?
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Just curious, Jimmy, what research led you to the 100K number?
Most estimates I've seen top out somewhere south of 10K. Not that it matters much either way - either number is rather more than I'm going to learn, but 100,000 tunes seems a little... um... exuberant.
On the topic at hand, I'd suggest that the best thing to do when you write a tune is to slip it into a set of tunes and attribute it to Paddy Fahy if anyone asks. It doesn't matter much whether it's a real Irish tune in principle if people like it enough to learn it and play it, and it doesn't matter how authentically Irish the composer was, if the tune's no good.
What makes a tune traditional, really, is the process of being played and learned in a tradtition, just as what makes an English word an English word is the fact that English speakers grew up using it as if it were an English word.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Forgive my .02 but as far as I've been able to figure out, the first qualifier of a "traditional" tune is that it is in the public domain. No one can lay claim to ownership of it and therefore collect royalties.
Write a tune and teach it to your friends. And if people are still playing it in 50 years or whatever the length of time is for a tune to become royalty free, THEN you've written a traditional tune. And it'll be in whatever tradition the people who play it, say it is... cuz you'll be pushin' daisies by then anyway.
Right?
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Fishmonger
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Fishmonger nails it on the head. It's a fool's errand to try and define what makes a tune an Irish traditional tune. If a composed tune is good enough and Irish enough then over time it will be assimilated into the tradition via the wisdom of the crowd. That will only happen to a tiny minority of tunes. The Irish-ness of the composer has nothing to do with it.
As to whether a newly-composed Breton-sounding jig is going be be tolerated, well that's down to the individual session. I would think that most would be pretty easy-going about that sort of thing, but some wouldn't.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Irish tune, Scottish tune, American tune.......who cares? It really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if someone in a Berlin "Irish" session is playing a self composed 7/8 tune in Eb minor on a tuba, there will still be people all over the world playing well known tunes in the traditional way. Tunes come and go, the best ones stick and it makes no difference that thousands of tune are played briefly or recorded and never heard of again.
All that matters is that the good tunes survive. When learning tunes I make no distinction whether they are Scottish, Irish, Cape Breton, trad or brand new. If you like a tune play it and don't listen to the naysayers.
In our Scottish session we could very easily play nothing but trad Irish tunes for 3 or 4 hours (not that we do obviously). Does that make it an Irish session. No, not to us. We're Scots playing tunes in a wee pub in the Scottish Highlands, to us it's a Scottish session. Notes don't have nationalities.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by bogman
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Bogman, we kicked the tuba player out of our session for exactly that reason.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Bleedin' Heart
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
lol
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by bogman
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Pardon any redundancy to the above posters -
You wrote above:
"So my question for you lot is this: Can some novice pen a tune and claim that it's an Irish tune? Sure the tune is being played in something called an "Irish session," but it does not resemble Irish music, except that it is in jig time with the right number of bits."
I would say, then, that it is perhaps not a good tune, or not in any of the styles usually associated with being truly Irish and traditional (I am trusting your judgement, I have not heard it).
You further wrote:
"I say that this composition is most definitely not an Irish tune, and to call it one is an insult to an incredible body of music that we all play and love."
I will suggest that we may have a matter of terminology here, "irish" in that composer's mind being merely a tune "in the irish traditional style" or influenced by it.
If so, then IMHO it is merely Semantics, rip it all you want. half-full, half-empty.
None of us is a perfect communicator.
As for the insult factor, insulting to whom? Or what? someone likes irish music, and tries to express themselves through it. This is bad?
Do you not recall when you first caught the fever?
25 yars ago I heard an old man make magic on a fiddle, and I just HAD to learn it.
The ols man actually seemed pleased.
Also: If someone saw me forging in my shop and decided right then and there that they wanted to be a blacksmith, too, I would be VERY flattered, and probably a bit humbled.
My twa farthings, folks.
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Piece
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Pardon any redundancy to the above posters -
You wrote above:
"So my question for you lot is this: Can some novice pen a tune and claim that it's an Irish tune? Sure the tune is being played in something called an "Irish session," but it does not resemble Irish music, except that it is in jig time with the right number of bits."
I would say, then, that it is perhaps not a good tune, or not in any of the styles usually associated with being truly Irish and traditional (I am trusting your judgement, I have not heard it).
You further wrote:
"I say that this composition is most definitely not an Irish tune, and to call it one is an insult to an incredible body of music that we all play and love."
I will suggest that we may have a matter of terminology here, "irish" in that composer's mind being merely a tune "in the irish traditional style" or influenced by it.
If so, then IMHO it is merely Semantics, rip it all you want. half-full, half-empty.
None of us is a perfect communicator.
As for the insult factor, insulting to whom? Or what? someone likes irish music, and tries to express themselves through it. This is bad?
Do you not recall when you first caught the fever?
25 yars ago I heard an old man make magic on a fiddle, and I just HAD to learn it.
The man actually seemed pleased.
If someone saw me forging in my shop and decided right then and there that they wanted to be a blacksmith, too, i would be VERY flattered, and probably a bit humbled.
Is there anyone here above that kind of thinking?
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by Piece
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Well, an interesting question to be sure.
I'm lucky enough to play regularly with a dear old man who was born in Clifden, Galway, and has played music his whole life. He smiles and winks when I play some old stuff, and says that's good. When I play some newfangled thing, he tightly grins politely and doesn't say much after.
When I've picked out enough of some old chestnut he's been playing to be able to hang with him, or even better, if I start the tune first, he smiles at me after and always says "You know, that's one of the oldest tunes..."
The joke is, he says that a lot about them. Seems like there's a lot of "one of the oldest tunes..."
Anyway, I use his reactions as a judge to what is good. By no means am I some fascist that will only play old tunes and never consider anything new, but when you're lucky enough to have someone like him around, it's hard not to try to please him with the old stuff, so my tastes have gone accordingly.
Now Will, that being said, nothing would make me happier than to be the old man in the pub much later in life and have some young whippersnapper crank out "Bang Your Frog On The Sofa" for me. I'd smile after and say "Oh sure, that's an old one, good tune that. You know, I used to know the guy who wrote that..."
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
..and to answer the OP, in the situation listed, no, that's not some old Irish tune. That's some newfangled tune somebody just cooked up. Now if it catches on and people keep playing it over the years and so on...well, you get the picture.
So the question goes back again to what was said previously: "Is it a good tune?" That's all that maters. There's a huge slagpile of crap tunes. Go click on 'Tunes' up there and check them out. [rim shot]
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Something in this thread reminded me of the Robbie O'Connell song about his first few gigs in America, fresh of the airplane, where he had some trouble establishing his credentials as an Irish singer. It goes:
"You're not Irish, you can't be Irish,
You don't know Danny Boy.
Or Tura Lura Lura, or even Irish Eyes....."
# Posted on January 9th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
The reverse often applies, as well. I have seen, admittedly mainly on American Websites, many tunes of proveable non-Irish origin described as "Irish" mainly because the contributor was too lazy to establish its origin. One such was "The shores of Erin", written in the 50's as "The Shoals of Herring", another was John Connolly's "Fiddler's Green", written about a Grimsby fisherman in the 1960's. There's also the "Irish" theme tune to "The Archers" English radio programme "Barwick Green", written by an Englishman about an English Village!
Bless us all !
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Just to set the record straight, he didn't ever claim it was an Irish tune. He asked you why you thought it wasn't. It probably would have been better (i.e. more productive) to give him a real answer rather than the vague one you did and rather than come onto a public place and start talking about it inaccurately. Also, as someone who has spent as much time in Brittany as you say you've spent in Ireland, it wasn't even close to vaguely Breton sounding. I first thought it was Canadian. Finally, he never claimed he wrote it. Someone else had to tell you afterward.
I like you, Chris, I really do, and I'm certainly no fan of the session in question, but I have to wonder why you go if you clearly don't enjoy it.
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by lastnitesfun
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Mark - hereabouts, I hear people saying "Breton" to refer to tunes from Cape Breton, not from Brittany. Confused me, too, and still does sometimes, but I suspect that may have been Chrishty's usage. If so, you both thought it was Canadian.
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
That would explain it then. Thanks, John.
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by lastnitesfun
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
IMO, if the bloke who wrote it is Irish, it's an Irish tune. End of story. All my tunes are "Canadian tunes", even if a couple of them were meant to sound Irish-ish.
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by Kerri Brown
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
End of story? Nope. Silly notion.
What if the bloke is Northern Irish and British and European? Or Northern Irish and Irish and European (continent)? Or Canadian and North American (continent).
Where do you draw the line? As the cartographer asks.
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by ...
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
"hereabouts, I hear people saying "Breton" to refer to tunes from Cape Breton, not from Brittany."
Hmm. I live in pretty much the same 'hereabouts' (though I spend more time on the northern side of town), and I don't recall having heard anybody refer to Cape Breton without using both words: "Cape Breton" (though, now that I think about it, they do often say the word "Cape" very quickly, leaving it sounding suspiciously like "keBreton").
I'm pretty sure Chrishty meant "Brittany" (since I think I remember him telling the story in person), but it hardly matters. I think his point was that it clearly didn't sound, to him, like something he would have called "Irish".
While I couldn't put my finger on it, I feel reasonably confident that I could recognize (or at least make an educated guess at) an "Irish tune" from a "Scots tune", and even perhaps tell the difference between an older tune and one written in the late 20th century--but I'm less confident of that.
On the greater topic of starting tunes you wrote at a session: Martin Wynne, I'm told, used to not admit having written tunes until several years after other people were already playing them. But clearly anything Martin Wynne would have written would likely have sounded convincingly Irish. On the other hand, if you're going to run a tune you wrote up the proverbial flagpole without telling anyone it's yours, you need to be prepared for the possible smack-down. I've heard the question "Did you write that?" used as a backhanded remark at sessions, where it often really means:
"Sheesh, that tune was weird. It didn't sound like anything that anybody would actually bother to learn... But YOU clearly learned it, so the only reason I can think you'd want to play it is that you wrote it, and are hoping we'll all start playing it so you can come around later an claim it as your own for fame and fortune... well, a certain amount of fame anyway... So which is it? Do you have questionable taste in choosing tunes to learn, or are you being sneaky and trying to use us to further your traditional street-cred?"
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by Georgi
Warning ~ nerdy academic rant . . .
as a former cartographer . . . cartographers never re-create the real world, we merely attempt to represent physical & cultural aspects of locations on maps & globes.
So, as far as the geographer is concerned, music would be represented in a similar way. In regards to *physical location*, music written in Ireland could be regarded as Irish music. This is fairly cut & dry. Cultural aspects are vastly more open to interpretation. Location & place (two distinct things to geographers) may or may not be significant in using the term *Irish* to describe someone's tune if considering music in cultural terms.
Physical geography is often used by cultural geographers, though the former tends to base itself of math & science. The latter is a sticky wicket.
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
~
Kerri Brown is correct, if the mapmaker is drafting a map using locational characteristics alone.
Llig's mapmaker introduces cultural characteristics & as a result his map is not a map in the convintional sense. Could be a *thematic* map. You would have a difficult time using Llig's map to find the nearest pub. ;)
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
"I feel reasonably confident that I could recognize (or at least make an educated guess at) an "Irish tune" from a "Scots tune"
Despite living stateside?
Drowsy Maggie. Scots or Irish?
Lads of Laois (as in recent discussion) Socts of Irish?
O'Neill' March/Stool of Repentance/Old Woman Wrapped up in a Blanket (depending if you are from Ireland, Scotland or Hebrides)
etc, etc, etc.
If you were at Scottish sessions, unless in a stylized area, I wouldn't rate your chances of distinguishing where the tune is from. Irish tunes will sound Scottish just as Mrs MacLeod sounds Irish in an Irish session
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by bogman
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
There are of course obvious distinctions like Shetland tunes, Strathspeys (though they can sometimes be interchangeable with Highlands), pipe tunes, Skinner style tunes, and in Ireland Polkas, Slides and tunes played in a distinctive regional style. But there is also a huge grey area of reels and jigs played in session style that are pretty much homeless.
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by bogman
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Mark -
That was the first and likely only time I'll darken the door of that session. I went because I got an email about it and was starved for music.
I thought I portrayed the events reasonably acurately -- at least the salient points of the hypothetical situation. I suppose I took the defensiveness of the composer as evidence that he/she thought it was in fact an Irish tune. And it became very clear, long before I was told, that it was their composition. Anyway, I didn't intend for any innacuracy, and I was trying to keep it hypothetical-ish.
The reason I posted this question is exactly because I couldn't give a precise answer to the question "what's not Irish about it?" To my ear, it was obvious. Yet I couldn't (not wouldn't) articulate why. I think that some of the responses here are incorrect in saying outright or suggesting that there's no point in trying to figure it out. Bogman's right to a degree -- there's certainly lots of overlap between Scots and Irish, but there are also lots of reels that are clearly Irish to my ear, even if played with a Scottish accent. And lots of music or tunes or whatever doesn't sound Irish, even when played in an "Irish style" and in an Irish music context (and even if I'm drunk.) The tune that inspired this post falls into this category.
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by Chrishty
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
There are some tunes where it's fairly obvious and some it's not. Some tunes you KNOW are modern or Scottish or whatever and others could be from any time, anywhere. In certain cases there are bleedingly obvious flags. Like if it has weird syncopation, it's probably modern.
And does it matter? What if I wrote a tune (lucky for you all, this isn't likely to happen)? I'm an American living in Scotland playing mostly Irish music on the uilleann pipes? What the hell would you call that?
# Posted on January 11th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Piper's Folly?
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Hey, Kerri Brown showed up! Hi, Kerri, we have missed your often witty contibutions here. Come back and visit more!
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
my favourite wry wit ever!
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Yeah, me writing a tune would pretty much fall into that category. I don't know if it would be Scottish or Irish or American or what but it would definitely add to what SWFL called the "slagpile of crap tunes" on this website.
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Piper's always get the solo because no one else can figure out what the are playing. ~ joke ~
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Haha.... I wish it were joke. Happened to me over the weekend in a session with people who know squillions more tunes than I do... I found the *one bloody* tune they didn't know, which of course was a five parter. Nothing so scary as the accidental solo of a five part jig in front of players who are a million times better than you. I've never prayed so hard for a trap door to open underneath my chair.
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
"Despite living stateside?"
Sure. Why not?
You picked three tunes that have been around the block long enough to become more ambiguous, but I'll take a stab at it (minus the powers of google, just to make it interesting):
Drowsy Maggie - 80% sure it's scots originally, though the Donegal folks have a lovely way around it.
Lads of Laois - only 50% sure it's Irish, but it sounds old and potentially pipe-friendly, so I'll punt. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear it's Scots originally (though I suspect it's played a bit differently). I'm used to hearing either Andy McGann play it, or Tommy Potts, both of whom give it a healthy dose of Irishness.
O'Neill' March/Stool of Repentance/Old Woman Wrapped up in a Blanket - 70% sure it's scots. Always sounded particularly highland-pipe-friendly to me.
And for the record, Mrs. MacLeod (and Lord MacDonald) always sounded like they were originally Scottish to me... Not that it matters much, since it's been such a staple of Connemara melodeon players, and one of my own favorite tunes, even though I play Irish music pretty exclusively.
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by Georgi
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Re: "Despite living stateside."
I hate to burst your haggis, but Americans aren't all as Bubba-fied and ignorant of other culture's art and inflections as Hollywood makes us out to be.
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
"Silver Spear" - a 5-part jig no-one knew. That'll have been this one :
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3110
Happy New Year from psychic Kenny
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by Kenny
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
>http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3110
Yeah, the one that always sounds like the player is switching to the Blarney pilgrim in the last part. Catches me (and at elast one other friend) every time
- Chris
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Makes no sense to me for someone to say "I wrote and Irish/Scottish/Egyptian/Martian" tune.
"I wrote a jig/reel/hornpipe/tune" makes much more sense, to me anyway, your senses may vary.
- chris
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
That's a bit creepy, Kenny. How did you KNOW that???
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Geordi, Miss L, I don't mean any disrespect by saying 'stateside'. Geordis biog says playing Irish music 10 years and resides in the US. You say you play Irish music almost exclusively. I would argue that if you think you can identify the origin of the thousands of session tunes here in Scotland then you need to have a deep knowledge of Scottish music and regional styles. I am constantly finding tunes that surprise me by their origin.
Some others...
Colonel Frazier
Rakish Paddy
Greig' Pipes
Irish Washerwoman
Dinky's
Wind that shakes the Barley
Limerick Lasses
The Flogging
Speed the Plough
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Rather than making a claim to reliably identify their origins, I'm pretty sure I said I could make a convincing guess most of the time; I think I've done pretty well so far (I've at least batted over 50%), though it feels like you're trying to get me to admit that popular "Irish" tunes are originally Scottish more than trying to find out if I can actually guess the difference. When it comes to old tunes, the different ways that have evolved around them make this exercise more complicated.
"The Irish Washerwoman" always felt too angular a tune to be originally Irish. Colonel Fraser, Greig's Pipes, and Dinky's are almost certainly Scottish as well. I'd say I'm 80% confident they're originally Scottish.
Speed the Plough is probably Scottish, but I might be biased against it because I'm so tired of hearing the the damn thing.
Rakish Paddy, and The Flogging Reel could easily be Scottish as well (60% confident), but my confidence diminishes further when we get to The Wind that Shakes the Barley and the Limerick Lasses (which could go either way as far as I can guess--but are probably Scottish, since everything else on this list was).
For some contrast, "Tom Ward's Downfall", "The Girl that Broke My Heart", "Dowd's Favorite", "Farewell to Erin" (DEFD DAA2), "The Blackthorn Stick", "the Steampacket", and "the Providence" are all older tunes that sound a bit more Irish than scottish to me, as do the better bulk of jigs (though again, I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that there were some scottish tunes in that group either).
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by Georgi
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
No, I'm not making any point about well known Irish tunes being Scottish. The reason I mentioned these tunes is because they are in a Scottish collection that's over 150 years old - but it's still no guarantee that they're Scottish. I think Dinky's is Irish and I'm pretty sure Farewell to Erin is Scottish as is Rakish Paddy. Despite knowing and hearing these tunes for years I don't know their origin.
The point I'm making is that these are the well known tunes. There are thousands of newer tunes that are far less obvious because the session scene and media here are merging many tunes styles into one.
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
That's even without mentioning tunes common in Donegal.
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
"That's even without mentioning tunes common in Donegal."
I made a point of avoiding those, since the folks up there seem fairly comfortable with their cultural proximity to scotland, and often a bit culturally isolated from the CCE-centric Irish-traditional music fundamentalists in the greater Irish Republic (I remember talking to one fellow, an excellent fiddler, in Teelin, who expressed pride in not knowing a single Paddy O'Brien tune).
I guess my point was that there often is a discernible difference between "Scottish" and "Irish" tunes, and it seems totally reasonable that someone might hear a tune and feel that it was obviously not one or the other. Some tunes seem to absolutely shout "Scottish" (The High Road to Linton) or "Irish" (The Longford Collector, or Tom Ward's Downfall), whereas some are much more ambiguous.
I rather think the newer tunes are easier to tell apart, since they haven't been soaking in multiple cultures for over a century (resulting in different, similarly valid settings). The Wind that Shakes the Barley might have a much more Scottish version, but I couldn't really tell you with any confidence that the Scottish or Irish version was the original. It's been such a staple in Irish music, that it certainly qualifies as an Irish tune to me. Ed Reavy, Paddy Fahy or Sean Ryan tunes, on the other hand are obviously Irish--and even not terribly difficult to guess at the composer--and "the Mist Covered Mountain", in spite of being commonly mis-attributed to Junior Crehan, is clearly Scottish in origin.
Perhaps, more than telling accurately what the origin of a tune IS, it's often easy to guess at what it ISN'T, which is how this whole discussion started anyhoo.
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by Georgi
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
I thought mist covered mountain (jig) was the tune that junior crehan made out of the scottish air (which appears to be based on, or at least related to Johnny's not Home from the Fair).
Actually I nevre noticed the similarity between both Mist Covered Mountains until it was pointed out to me (I hadn't known the name of the scottish air although i'd heard it many times). And they wereso obviously related when i was told (doh!).
My wife and daughter were learning the (scottish) gaelic song for the Mist covered Mountains (Chì Mi Na Mórbheanna) at their beginners gaelic class last year. Rachel (8) still walks about singing it sometimes.
- chris
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
"I rather think the newer tunes are easier to tell apart, since they haven't been soaking in multiple cultures for over a century"
We could go on all night but again I disagree. The folk who write the newer tunes tend to have been soaking in multiple cultures due to modern media etc.
Popular examples would be the Shaw tune MacLeods Farewell, or The Wedding Reel as it's known in Ireland, through Lunasa misnaming it on an album. The same with the Dr Angus tune Chloe's Pashion. Leo McCann has written very popular Scottish session tunes though he is Irish but a Scottish resident. Unless you knew the composer I would be surprised if anyone new their origin.
There are many Irish musicians playing and writing in Scotland whose tunes get accepted into the sessions without anyone noticing them to be different to the tunes written by other folk they play with.
Anyway, sorry but I'm bored with this. If you're ever at Scottish sessions in Scotland you might be surprised by the common ground between the tunes.
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by bogman
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
A good late-friend of mine, a native Irish Gaelic speaker who lived most of his life in Scotland (and to my surprise I found out at his funerla that he'd been born here before his family returned to Ireland) used to use the term Gaelic music to cover scottish and irish music. I like this term and the idea that both musical traditions are just as related and intemingled as Scottish and irish Gaelic, and it also hightens the music as the single strongest survival of Gaelic culture, certianly outisde of the Gaelic speaking areas.
This term has become how I think of scottish and irish music, although I don't normally use it when talking, or writing, it being too tied up with my friend in my memory. And as a much poorer musician and person than him, not to mention a non-Gaelic speaker, I don't comfortable with using it. But it is how I think of things.
- chris
# Posted on January 12th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Aw, thanks AlBrown and Random Notes. I stopped commenting a few years ago because everybody I met at sessions seemed to already have an opinion about me because I was always yammering away on here. I went to various religious and philosophical forums and started a blog to get my yammering out of my system. And started writing a few books. So, just passing through, but might as well have an argument while I'm here. :D
# Posted on January 14th 2010 by Kerri Brown
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
@ llig: "What if the bloke is Northern Irish and British and European? Or Northern Irish and Irish and European (continent)? Or Canadian and North American (continent). Where do you draw the line? As the cartographer asks."
Most people of mixed descent feel they have a primary cultural identity which usually corresponds to the country they were born and / or raised, so I still think "If it was written by an Irish person, it's an Irish tune" applies in the vast majority of cases. For the exceptions to that rule, I'd just say it's "a tune", or "a jig with an Irish feel to it".
@ random notes: "Kerri Brown is correct, if the mapmaker is drafting a map using locational characteristics alone.
Llig's mapmaker introduces cultural characteristics & as a result his map is not a map in the convintional sense. Could be a *thematic* map. You would have a difficult time using Llig's map to find the nearest pub. ;)"
Always been the pragmatic one, me. :D While I acknowledge there are significant regional stylistic differences, I think we often make too big a deal about them in "the New World". It's as if we fancy ourselves the custodians of Irish culture and think it will wither and die if we aren't intolerably snooty about it. That said, I've been known to say "That sounds like a Donegal tune" or "That player must be from Belfast (operative syllable: "fast") myself, but it's generally speculative - I'm just trying to pick my way through the foggy landscape of a culture that does not belong to me from thousands of kilometers away.
@ chris: "I wrote a jig/reel/hornpipe/tune" makes much more sense, to me anyway, your senses may vary."
Yes, that makes more sense to me too.
# Posted on January 14th 2010 by Kerri Brown
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
The whole premise, "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune" already established the cultural map.
If the mapmaker is drafting a map using locational characteristics alone then a Donegal tune would be an Irish tune and a Belfast tune a British tune? Or indeed, all Irish tunes written before 1922 are actually british tunes.
It's silly. They are all just tunes.
# Posted on January 15th 2010 by ...
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Point is, it's not worth getting worked up over.
# Posted on January 15th 2010 by Kerri Brown
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
It's not even worth considering.
# Posted on January 15th 2010 by ...
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Oh, now I wouldn't go quite that far. The geographical origins of different kinds of tunes is fascinating for dorks like myself, but I don't think it's worth considering whether or not some strange little ditty scribbled out by your American neighbour at an American session is "Irish".
# Posted on January 15th 2010 by Kerri Brown
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Hey Chris,
(Chrishty, not Rambling. . .)
I hope I didn't come across as defensive, if so, it was not intended. I went back and read my post and thought it might have sounded a bit snarky. I got the spirit of what you were saying. I don't go that particular session myself, other than the once. I can't abide bang boxes is why. It's a personal thing. I find the experience of sitting near one, or, horror of horrors, between two, a migraine inducing experience along the lines of having twin dwarfs playing triangles inside a metal tool shed. (No I have nothing against dwarves. . . unless they play triangle.) The local old timey sessions (which is where you'll find me until this town can put together a decent Irish session) seem to have largely found a way to keep them at a distance. Something I wish we could figure out.
Mark
# Posted on January 15th 2010 by lastnitesfun
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
If you write an Irish tune, it should go in a set of real Irish tunes without sounding incongruous with the others. I'd have thought that was common sense. It should have the right rhythm and pulse and an optimal speed compatible with that of existing tunes it might belong with. And, ideally, it should actually have a tune...
Same applies to writing Scottish music, or tunes in any of the other styles or sub-styles.
Breaking the mould of convention through some uprush of burgeoning compositional genius is probably some way down the road for most of us...
# Posted on January 16th 2010 by nicholas
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
I think the composer in question has pretty clearly not been immersed in ITM long enough to under stand why their newly-composed wonder stuck out like a sore thumb. The operative phrase being "long enough to understand why". It's all about "paying your dues" so to speak. It's an unbelievably difficult thing to put a finger on exactly what it is that makes a tune sound "Irish", and said composer was apparently of an analytical mindset. To their ear, it only needed to be in the correct time/ rhythm & with the "right number of bits" to sound "Irish". I've composed a fair number of tunes myself, and to be honest, my earliest efforts are most definitely among the "slagpile of crap tunes". With time, I came to understand that Irish music is a CONSERVATIVE tradition, and that all the truly solid traditional tunes I was hearing all had certain cliches in common. These cliched turns of phrase, when put in the right order & played with the right feeling, are what makes an Irish tune sound "Irish". Until somebody with WAY too much time on their hands decides to collect & catalog these phrases, it will always be difficult to explain what it is that makes a tune sound "right". As I developed as a traditional musician over time, I stopped trying to be so damn clever when attempting to write in the traditional idiom, and instead asked some important questions of myself. "Would it fit in a set of older tunes?" "Can it be played easily on ANY traditional instrument?" "Could I see a well-respected traditional musician playing it, say, Joe Burke?" "Does it sound OLD?" After seeing that this site has indeed become a "slagpile of crap tunes" I decided to stop submitting my own compositions & will, for now, see if I can do my part to spread understanding of this music by posting TRADITIONAL tunes only. I see a lot of the usual suspects responding to this discussion, but if one "newbie" reads this & has a lightbulb go off, then we have collectively done a good thing for the music. We can only hope...
# Posted on January 17th 2010 by jaychoons
Re: "hey guys, I wrote an Irish tune"
Mark -
No worries. I'm quite sure I always come across as a bit of a fill-in-the-blank in my posts here. I find it entertaining to read people's comments about contentious topics.
# Posted on January 18th 2010 by Chrishty