Something interesting Ive noticed. The more expensive the fiddle, the more the humidity seems to effect it.
I had a $50 china I first started with, I sold it to a friend whos learning. Although the tone is what you'd expect from a $50 fiddle the weather /humidity changes dont seem to effect it.
The next fiddle I purchased is a cremona 150, a small step up from the $50 fiddle. the Cremona is now my wifes fiddle. In low humidity it will slip out slightly, but most times the fine tuners is all it needs to bring it in to tune..
Now my fiddle ,$900 is a German made (Otto Klier). Is greatly effected by humidity swings.
This is my theory and I'd like to here everyones experience/opinions on this. The pegs on my German fiddle turn and tune quite nice, where the cheaper fiddles the pegs are a little tougher to tune. So I think the higher quality craftsmanship (ie. ease of tuning,etc)
results in these fiddles being more sensitive to changes.
I wonder if the better quality of tone woods also makes them more sensitive ?
Has anyone else noticed this same thing ?
I had the cheapest of chinese-made fiddles given to me and I got rid of it but kept the case, which is quite a nice one. The fiddle though had bomb-proof polyurethane varnish on it that would probably have survived playing underwater. The varnish on a high-end fiddle is a different thing altogether and might well allow humidity changes. I carry on practising fiddle when keeping an eye on cooking (e.g. waiting for vegetables to boil) and the kitchen might get a bit humid. I think the tone of the fiddle actually improves (I'm just playing it in the same room, not actually over the cook pot!)
The wood inside a fiddle is not varnished, so presumably it would be affected by humidity no matter what the varnish was on the outside. A high-end fiddle is usually lighter in weight than the cheaper ones, so that implies thinner wood in the construction. I imagine the thinner wood of the high-ender would absorb moisture in the air (and dry out) more readily than the thicker wood of the cheaper instrument.
The more fiddle is played the more the tone improves. The cheaper ones with the bullet-proof varnish (I must test that out sometime in Q's lab) may possibly take longer to getbecause that sort of varnish takes time to become more flexible and allow the belly to vibrate better. It's possible of course that playing the fiddle in a warm humid atmosphere (kitchen) may help the process.
Older instruments seem not to be as fussy about humidity as modern ones. Is that because they are not made with fully cured wood, or things ain't just what they used to be, or because over time they settle in and become less cantankerous?
I like your theory. I do alot of carpentry and it is amazing how poorly kilned the wood is these days. The stuff shrinks unbelievably during the first heating season.
On instruments (I have a steam radiator heated house-0% humidity in winter) the other thing is the glue drying out. the older instruments used unenvironmentally freindly stuff that was put on for the ages. The new stuff drys out or peels.
I have guitar that the daughters purloined and stored in the on of their rooms. The neck block dried, delaminated and folded in under tension. What a mess.
Very interesting Barry1963. I would have thought that it was best to try and keep your fiddles (regardless of cost) at fairly constant humidity levels. Well that is certainly the advice given me here ... only remove your fiddle from its controlled environment (being temp/humidity controlled case or cabinet or room or whatever) while you are playing it. Never leave it where it can get hot or dry out. I can't imagine that exposing a fiddle to lots of rapid changes could possibly be good for it, swelling and shrinking, heating and cooling etc ... especially for the animal parts, for the hide glue. Needless to say, my fiddles thoroughly enjoy it when its humid and raining outside.
We're currently enjoying a couple of days of good soaking rain, after 2009 being one of the driest on record ... so its great, really great ... although my fiddles are enjoying it and sounding mellower than usual, my toward the top end carbon fibre bow is struggling ... sigh! I thought carbon fibre was pretty temp/humidity proof ... and the carbon fibre part might well be, but the horse hair ... well it is so sagged and relaxed it doesn't clear the stick for playing when adjusted to its tighest, and the bodhran skin is, well, positively floppy ... the evaporative airconditioner also has that effect. So ... my theory is, maybe, that locally seasoned wood might be the best wood for making a fiddle (but, hey, what would I know!). Its nice to hear you're a fiddling chef Barry ... ditto. Boring and time wasting otherwise. Cheers
I would also look at your strings. I would almost bet that the cheaper fiddle is strung with steel or some sort of cheap string...the better fiddle may have better strings other than steel (I am not saying that steel strings are not good..there are decent steel strings out there)...but the German fiddle may have some perlon or other composite core...perhaps even gut that react to humidity more than steel...
Hmmm I have one fiddle thats about 90 yo, and the other about 55 or so.... the person who sold me the older one was terrified of the dry climate where I live, and was very worried... well I let it dry out... (down to about 30%) is the most we can keep the house at, sometimes even 20%, and it LOVES the dry, its open loud, and cuts through a noisy room really well, I love it, very fast responding and demands a careful hand. My "newer" fiddle loves it moist, and is dull, and muffled in the dry.. Both are of similar quality, but I would guess my older one has thinner wood by guaging how it looks in the f-holes and its over all weight... it loves the dry.. go figure.
I think they all have their own character. Both of my fiddles are german built ... I don't see how it can be predicted, how an instrument will work, until you take a chance. So from personal experience.. I think it's a crap shoot. I like having a fiddle that performs well in each environment though.. pretty nice actually.
I don't think the tuning pegs would cause variations in pitch due to humidity changes: they either stay where they are or they come loose and de-tune. A more likely explanation, I feel, is that in a more expensive {ie better made} instrument any variations in pitch will be more noticeable because of the purity of tone, whereas in a cheaper instrument little variations will be lost in the general background overtones, which will also be changing around and compensating each other.
I'm not quite sure what problem the original poster is describing, is it
a) The pegs stick or let go and geneerally don't behave with humidity? This is often a problem with cheap instruments - on decent instruments the pegs are made of ebony, which is very stable. On cheapies they are any old tree-wood, and expand and contract with the weather.
b) The instrument goes out of tune with humidity - this is almost always down to the strings - gut or gut cored strings, and some synthetics, expand and contract with humidity. Steel and nylon cored strings don't. If this is problem one other thing to look at is the tailgut - the bit that holds ther tailpiece to the endpin. On old and good instruments this is often gut, which expands and contracts quite markedly with the weather. Nylon ones don't.
c) Is it a change in the tone of the instrument you are noticing, not the tuning? This is always much more pronounced on high quality instruments. I think the main reason is that the wood is thinner, so reacts more quickly to changes in humidity. But good fiddles are always much more temperamental, and react much more to any slight change in conditions than 'clunkers'. I've heard a couple of Strad owners say that some days the instrument is playable, some days it isn't, and I'm sure this is down to humidity more than anything else.
But when you come down to the $50 end of things there are other factors - I think that although the wood will still absorb moisture through its unvarnished inside, the thick layer of rigid cellulose lacquer on the outside probably prevents the wood from expanding. And these fiddles come with cheap bows, which usually have synthetic hair. The effect of humidity changes on a real horse hair bow are much more profound than the effect on the instrument, and have a bigger effect on the sound produced.
The rule with most wood-made products is that a little too much humidity is better than too much dryness. Visit a local violin shop and they can tell you what humidity levels are necessary to maintain optimum tone. Wood is porous, so it makes sense that it is affected my changing levels in humidity. My fiddle sounds like crap if it's too dry. I'd rather a little humidity than none at all.
Oh and price does make all the difference because that usually equates to quality. As the saying goes, "you get what you pay for."
Humidity and fiddle quality
Humidity and fiddle quality
Something interesting Ive noticed. The more expensive the fiddle, the more the humidity seems to effect it.
I had a $50 china I first started with, I sold it to a friend whos learning. Although the tone is what you'd expect from a $50 fiddle the weather /humidity changes dont seem to effect it.
The next fiddle I purchased is a cremona 150, a small step up from the $50 fiddle. the Cremona is now my wifes fiddle. In low humidity it will slip out slightly, but most times the fine tuners is all it needs to bring it in to tune..
Now my fiddle ,$900 is a German made (Otto Klier). Is greatly effected by humidity swings.
This is my theory and I'd like to here everyones experience/opinions on this. The pegs on my German fiddle turn and tune quite nice, where the cheaper fiddles the pegs are a little tougher to tune. So I think the higher quality craftsmanship (ie. ease of tuning,etc)
results in these fiddles being more sensitive to changes.
I wonder if the better quality of tone woods also makes them more sensitive ?
Has anyone else noticed this same thing ?
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by Barry1963
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
Sorry. but 'This is my theory' reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAYDiPizDIs.
We don't tend to worry too much about humidity in Ireland.
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
floss seems like an ass.......
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by when sick is it t-bagging you want?
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
another typical helpful reply from floss????
Your problem could be down to the density of the different woods
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by glengarslasher
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
I had the cheapest of chinese-made fiddles given to me and I got rid of it but kept the case, which is quite a nice one. The fiddle though had bomb-proof polyurethane varnish on it that would probably have survived playing underwater. The varnish on a high-end fiddle is a different thing altogether and might well allow humidity changes. I carry on practising fiddle when keeping an eye on cooking (e.g. waiting for vegetables to boil) and the kitchen might get a bit humid. I think the tone of the fiddle actually improves (I'm just playing it in the same room, not actually over the cook pot!)
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by RichardB
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
The wood inside a fiddle is not varnished, so presumably it would be affected by humidity no matter what the varnish was on the outside. A high-end fiddle is usually lighter in weight than the cheaper ones, so that implies thinner wood in the construction. I imagine the thinner wood of the high-ender would absorb moisture in the air (and dry out) more readily than the thicker wood of the cheaper instrument.
The more fiddle is played the more the tone improves. The cheaper ones with the bullet-proof varnish (I must test that out sometime in Q's lab) may possibly take longer to getbecause that sort of varnish takes time to become more flexible and allow the belly to vibrate better. It's possible of course that playing the fiddle in a warm humid atmosphere (kitchen) may help the process.
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
Older instruments seem not to be as fussy about humidity as modern ones. Is that because they are not made with fully cured wood, or things ain't just what they used to be, or because over time they settle in and become less cantankerous?
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
Thanks for the replies. The kitchen idea my be the one to go with, the acoustics are better in there anyway.
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by Barry1963
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
Al
I like your theory. I do alot of carpentry and it is amazing how poorly kilned the wood is these days. The stuff shrinks unbelievably during the first heating season.
On instruments (I have a steam radiator heated house-0% humidity in winter) the other thing is the glue drying out. the older instruments used unenvironmentally freindly stuff that was put on for the ages. The new stuff drys out or peels.
I have guitar that the daughters purloined and stored in the on of their rooms. The neck block dried, delaminated and folded in under tension. What a mess.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
Very interesting Barry1963. I would have thought that it was best to try and keep your fiddles (regardless of cost) at fairly constant humidity levels. Well that is certainly the advice given me here ... only remove your fiddle from its controlled environment (being temp/humidity controlled case or cabinet or room or whatever) while you are playing it. Never leave it where it can get hot or dry out. I can't imagine that exposing a fiddle to lots of rapid changes could possibly be good for it, swelling and shrinking, heating and cooling etc ... especially for the animal parts, for the hide glue. Needless to say, my fiddles thoroughly enjoy it when its humid and raining outside.
We're currently enjoying a couple of days of good soaking rain, after 2009 being one of the driest on record ... so its great, really great ... although my fiddles are enjoying it and sounding mellower than usual, my toward the top end carbon fibre bow is struggling ... sigh! I thought carbon fibre was pretty temp/humidity proof ... and the carbon fibre part might well be, but the horse hair ... well it is so sagged and relaxed it doesn't clear the stick for playing when adjusted to its tighest, and the bodhran skin is, well, positively floppy ... the evaporative airconditioner also has that effect. So ... my theory is, maybe, that locally seasoned wood might be the best wood for making a fiddle (but, hey, what would I know!). Its nice to hear you're a fiddling chef Barry ... ditto. Boring and time wasting otherwise. Cheers
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Clear Drops
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
Don't lose your sense of humid.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
That was a cross-post zippydw ... yet similar tack. Yep, I've had instruments come unstuck! ... an unavoidable occurrence even taking care ...
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Clear Drops
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
I would also look at your strings. I would almost bet that the cheaper fiddle is strung with steel or some sort of cheap string...the better fiddle may have better strings other than steel (I am not saying that steel strings are not good..there are decent steel strings out there)...but the German fiddle may have some perlon or other composite core...perhaps even gut that react to humidity more than steel...
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Sunnybear
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
also, it is possible that the pegs on the German fiddle are slipping a bit...look at the obvious first
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Sunnybear
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
... and you too mcknowall ... you must be a tad inundated with humid yourself?
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Clear Drops
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
Typo correction to my previous post (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23525/comments#comment488831)
Please ignore "to get" in the second paragraph.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
Hmmm I have one fiddle thats about 90 yo, and the other about 55 or so.... the person who sold me the older one was terrified of the dry climate where I live, and was very worried... well I let it dry out... (down to about 30%) is the most we can keep the house at, sometimes even 20%, and it LOVES the dry, its open loud, and cuts through a noisy room really well, I love it, very fast responding and demands a careful hand. My "newer" fiddle loves it moist, and is dull, and muffled in the dry.. Both are of similar quality, but I would guess my older one has thinner wood by guaging how it looks in the f-holes and its over all weight... it loves the dry.. go figure.
I think they all have their own character. Both of my fiddles are german built ... I don't see how it can be predicted, how an instrument will work, until you take a chance. So from personal experience.. I think it's a crap shoot. I like having a fiddle that performs well in each environment though.. pretty nice actually.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by SandyBottoms
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
I go from humid to wet to utterly wet and a weed. salami!
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by mcknowall
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
I don't think the tuning pegs would cause variations in pitch due to humidity changes: they either stay where they are or they come loose and de-tune. A more likely explanation, I feel, is that in a more expensive {ie better made} instrument any variations in pitch will be more noticeable because of the purity of tone, whereas in a cheaper instrument little variations will be lost in the general background overtones, which will also be changing around and compensating each other.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by gam
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
I'm not quite sure what problem the original poster is describing, is it
a) The pegs stick or let go and geneerally don't behave with humidity? This is often a problem with cheap instruments - on decent instruments the pegs are made of ebony, which is very stable. On cheapies they are any old tree-wood, and expand and contract with the weather.
b) The instrument goes out of tune with humidity - this is almost always down to the strings - gut or gut cored strings, and some synthetics, expand and contract with humidity. Steel and nylon cored strings don't. If this is problem one other thing to look at is the tailgut - the bit that holds ther tailpiece to the endpin. On old and good instruments this is often gut, which expands and contracts quite markedly with the weather. Nylon ones don't.
c) Is it a change in the tone of the instrument you are noticing, not the tuning? This is always much more pronounced on high quality instruments. I think the main reason is that the wood is thinner, so reacts more quickly to changes in humidity. But good fiddles are always much more temperamental, and react much more to any slight change in conditions than 'clunkers'. I've heard a couple of Strad owners say that some days the instrument is playable, some days it isn't, and I'm sure this is down to humidity more than anything else.
But when you come down to the $50 end of things there are other factors - I think that although the wood will still absorb moisture through its unvarnished inside, the thick layer of rigid cellulose lacquer on the outside probably prevents the wood from expanding. And these fiddles come with cheap bows, which usually have synthetic hair. The effect of humidity changes on a real horse hair bow are much more profound than the effect on the instrument, and have a bigger effect on the sound produced.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by skreech
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
oh, I was assuming that the o.p. meant that the violin was slipping out of tune...after rereading, it is not quite clear.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Sunnybear
Re: Humidity and fiddle quality
The rule with most wood-made products is that a little too much humidity is better than too much dryness. Visit a local violin shop and they can tell you what humidity levels are necessary to maintain optimum tone. Wood is porous, so it makes sense that it is affected my changing levels in humidity. My fiddle sounds like crap if it's too dry. I'd rather a little humidity than none at all.
Oh and price does make all the difference because that usually equates to quality. As the saying goes, "you get what you pay for."
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by Fiddlechick7