I've been playing the whistle for eighteen months and am about to take the plunge and invest in a button accordion. Without a doubt ITM is my passion so:
Should it be B/C or D/G?
I don't want to break the bank but at the same time I don't want to skimp and get something that sounds like a whaling banshee!
I was considering a Scarlatti Rosso as a goog instrument to start on.
ANY and ALL suggestions would be very much appreciated
B/C will be a bit of a job to learn. The layout, at first, seems completely weird for playing in trad keys. However, it turns out it's an ideal instrument if you want a smooth and flowing sound.
I haven't played on a D/G, but thinking about it, it would seem to offer a combination of simplicity, if you treat it as a pair of melodeons, back to back, with some neat openings in ornamentation, if you play across the rows. For example, you could get a proper roll on a G, since you'd have the F# and the A on the push in the D row - this is not the case on the B/C.
This is just a guess on my part, though, since I haven't played one!
On the drawback side, the D/G lacks a lot of notes, most importantly the G# and the F natural. No Chief O'Neill's for you, nor Cook in the Kitchen or Julia Delaney. However, if that's okay with you, the D/G seems a reasonable option as well.
I have a D/G Baffetti. Two buttons, the first in each row, provide between them Fnat, G#, Bflat and Eflat, so all is not lost. I reckon the vast majority of tunes can be played with just 4 or 5 buttons on each row - which is a reasonably ergonomic set-up by most standards. On an occasion when a tune is out of the instrument's range it does no harm at all to have a rest and listen.
And don't forget that there are such things as work-arounds.
I second adding the consideration of a C#/D, but it would be good to know where your heart is with this music. You'll find quite a few discussions on this topic on site here, just do a 'search'. As always, it's also good to access any resources in your reach, people and instruments...
Thanks, hound, for clearing up the matter of accidentals.
The C#/D is also an option, indeed, and very handy for the harmonica player making the switch to box. It's a much more intuitive setup, I think, than the B/C, but on the whole I like the B/C. That being said, I really ought to try the D/G some time, it sounds like it could be fun.
With a D/G - leaving aside any accidentals that the box might have for a moment - you are restricted to the same keys you can get on a D whistle without half-holing.
The accidentals are awkwardly placed for use as anything but accidentals - in other words the fact that you have an F natural and Bb stuck down the bottom somewhere is not going to make playing in F a practical proposition, and nor is playing in Amajor just because you have one G# down there.
I faced exactly the same question when taking up the box, being a whistle player among other things. I opted for C#/D (after experimenting briefly with both B/C and C#/D fingerings) because having the home row in D - corresponding to a) the open D string of a fiddle b) the bottom note of the whistle and c) the launching pad for so many trad tunes - seemed more intuitive to me, and still does.
People - some people - play great Irish music on D/G boxes but I couldn't live with the limitations.
On B/C the learning curve will be steeper than either C#/D or D/G. But take it up if you like the sound that B/C players get best.
The search facility on discussions here doesn't seem happy with things like "B/C" but there are plenty of discussions where all three systems are mentioned
Don't rush to buy. Listen to (ideally) proficient local players, and if the sound of any particular box being played strikes you as being the kind you one day hope to make, ask its player all about it.
I've played D/G for a long time. The two things I learnt about choice of box were:
(1) a poor box can frustrate you badly because of deficiencies in its action, etc.;
(2) it can be very hard to adapt to another kind of fingering when you've got used to a particular one.
In this respect, there's a big divide between the D/G fingering - maybe all the "D" fingerings - and the B/C.
I started with the standard English-type Hohner Pokerwork. Eventually I found the action too poor and the sound of the upper notes too squeaky, and I wanted extra accidental / chromatic notes so as to widen the range of stuff I could play (not just trad). So I got a good B/C box.
It was a bad move. It had the 'oomph', it had low reeds as well as trebles on the right-hand side, and it had those extra chromatic notes. But I never - over years - got anywhere much with the fingering, certainly for reels. Playing it threw me out on the D/G: playing the D/G threw me out on the B/C. (I didn't have the will *not* to play the D/G - there were times I just wanted to play tunes on an instrument I knew!)
I got shot of the B/C and got a two-and-a-half row D/G Saltarelle Connemara. It has all the advantages I mentioned the B/C as having, and the all-important one that I can actually play the thing. No probs. But it cost a lot. That's the trouble - good, new instruments bought at some music shop *do* cost a lot. Though I am sure people here can advise on ways and means of cutting out the middleman, or tracking down a reliable used instrument.
I've never tried a C#/D but it seems a very good system for ITM, with accidentals available.
This has been said before and it will be said again. The logic of the BC is in essence illogical. While on the C#D or the DG you tend to play in D and add bits, on the BC you think of the two rows as one system as you concentrate on keys that are not there, D, G, A, F, etc.. It makes it a bit like other "tune" instruments, such as the flute. If you like the way the two rows integrate, then you will want the BC. I will hammer away on a D melodeon from time to time but the way the rolls, etc. work on the BC mean I would never turn to another two row. People sometimes call the "half-step" boxes chromatic. For me, that is how the BC is played.
Why bother with D/G box?
Go Anglo - there are cheap 3 rows of playable standard nowadays to see if you can cope with a proper chromatic instrument. Have a look at a rochelle or morse.
get a B/C that you like the sound of, and persevere
just as importantly, get one that plays freely
as a beginner, you can't know the difference, and it isn't really down to price (although some of the very cheapest boxes will never play well)
playing freely (in my lexicon) means
1. having flexible bellows that can open and close easily when a key is pressed down
2. having reeds that speak loud and clear without the need for high pressure on the bellows
3. having keys that have a short travel, sit on rigid levers with springs set as soft as possible
these three features aren't the exclusice preserve of top of the range boxes - indeed, many top name boxes are marketed with stiff bellows, stiff reeds and hard springs
a decent box repairer should be able to sort out spring settings and reeds. sometimes you can play the stiffness out of new bellows - but not always
you can waste years fighting a box which suffers from nothing more than poor or nonexistent setup. don't - it can wreck your sanity and your tendons
B/C D/G etc.
B/C D/G etc.
I've been playing the whistle for eighteen months and am about to take the plunge and invest in a button accordion. Without a doubt ITM is my passion so:
Should it be B/C or D/G?
I don't want to break the bank but at the same time I don't want to skimp and get something that sounds like a whaling banshee!
I was considering a Scarlatti Rosso as a goog instrument to start on.
ANY and ALL suggestions would be very much appreciated
# Posted on January 6th 2010 by just4fun
Re: B/C D/G etc.
B/C will be a bit of a job to learn. The layout, at first, seems completely weird for playing in trad keys. However, it turns out it's an ideal instrument if you want a smooth and flowing sound.
I haven't played on a D/G, but thinking about it, it would seem to offer a combination of simplicity, if you treat it as a pair of melodeons, back to back, with some neat openings in ornamentation, if you play across the rows. For example, you could get a proper roll on a G, since you'd have the F# and the A on the push in the D row - this is not the case on the B/C.
This is just a guess on my part, though, since I haven't played one!
On the drawback side, the D/G lacks a lot of notes, most importantly the G# and the F natural. No Chief O'Neill's for you, nor Cook in the Kitchen or Julia Delaney. However, if that's okay with you, the D/G seems a reasonable option as well.
# Posted on January 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: B/C D/G etc.
You might also consider a C#/D box.
# Posted on January 6th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
Re: B/C D/G etc.
I have a D/G Baffetti. Two buttons, the first in each row, provide between them Fnat, G#, Bflat and Eflat, so all is not lost. I reckon the vast majority of tunes can be played with just 4 or 5 buttons on each row - which is a reasonably ergonomic set-up by most standards. On an occasion when a tune is out of the instrument's range it does no harm at all to have a rest and listen.
And don't forget that there are such things as work-arounds.
# Posted on January 6th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: B/C D/G etc.
I second adding the consideration of a C#/D, but it would be good to know where your heart is with this music. You'll find quite a few discussions on this topic on site here, just do a 'search'. As always, it's also good to access any resources in your reach, people and instruments...
# Posted on January 6th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: B/C D/G etc.
Thanks, hound, for clearing up the matter of accidentals.
The C#/D is also an option, indeed, and very handy for the harmonica player making the switch to box. It's a much more intuitive setup, I think, than the B/C, but on the whole I like the B/C. That being said, I really ought to try the D/G some time, it sounds like it could be fun.
# Posted on January 6th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: B/C D/G etc.
With a D/G - leaving aside any accidentals that the box might have for a moment - you are restricted to the same keys you can get on a D whistle without half-holing.
The accidentals are awkwardly placed for use as anything but accidentals - in other words the fact that you have an F natural and Bb stuck down the bottom somewhere is not going to make playing in F a practical proposition, and nor is playing in Amajor just because you have one G# down there.
I faced exactly the same question when taking up the box, being a whistle player among other things. I opted for C#/D (after experimenting briefly with both B/C and C#/D fingerings) because having the home row in D - corresponding to a) the open D string of a fiddle b) the bottom note of the whistle and c) the launching pad for so many trad tunes - seemed more intuitive to me, and still does.
People - some people - play great Irish music on D/G boxes but I couldn't live with the limitations.
On B/C the learning curve will be steeper than either C#/D or D/G. But take it up if you like the sound that B/C players get best.
# Posted on January 6th 2010 by Jeeves Tones
Re: B/C D/G etc.
The search facility on discussions here doesn't seem happy with things like "B/C" but there are plenty of discussions where all three systems are mentioned
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=%22D%2FG%22+AND+%22B%2FC%22+AND+%22C%23%2FD%22+site%3Awww.thesession.org&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by TomB-R
Re: B/C D/G etc.
Don't rush to buy. Listen to (ideally) proficient local players, and if the sound of any particular box being played strikes you as being the kind you one day hope to make, ask its player all about it.
I've played D/G for a long time. The two things I learnt about choice of box were:
(1) a poor box can frustrate you badly because of deficiencies in its action, etc.;
(2) it can be very hard to adapt to another kind of fingering when you've got used to a particular one.
In this respect, there's a big divide between the D/G fingering - maybe all the "D" fingerings - and the B/C.
I started with the standard English-type Hohner Pokerwork. Eventually I found the action too poor and the sound of the upper notes too squeaky, and I wanted extra accidental / chromatic notes so as to widen the range of stuff I could play (not just trad). So I got a good B/C box.
It was a bad move. It had the 'oomph', it had low reeds as well as trebles on the right-hand side, and it had those extra chromatic notes. But I never - over years - got anywhere much with the fingering, certainly for reels. Playing it threw me out on the D/G: playing the D/G threw me out on the B/C. (I didn't have the will *not* to play the D/G - there were times I just wanted to play tunes on an instrument I knew!)
I got shot of the B/C and got a two-and-a-half row D/G Saltarelle Connemara. It has all the advantages I mentioned the B/C as having, and the all-important one that I can actually play the thing. No probs. But it cost a lot. That's the trouble - good, new instruments bought at some music shop *do* cost a lot. Though I am sure people here can advise on ways and means of cutting out the middleman, or tracking down a reliable used instrument.
I've never tried a C#/D but it seems a very good system for ITM, with accidentals available.
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by nicholas
Re: B/C D/G etc.
This has been said before and it will be said again. The logic of the BC is in essence illogical. While on the C#D or the DG you tend to play in D and add bits, on the BC you think of the two rows as one system as you concentrate on keys that are not there, D, G, A, F, etc.. It makes it a bit like other "tune" instruments, such as the flute. If you like the way the two rows integrate, then you will want the BC. I will hammer away on a D melodeon from time to time but the way the rolls, etc. work on the BC mean I would never turn to another two row. People sometimes call the "half-step" boxes chromatic. For me, that is how the BC is played.
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by nfldbox
Re: B/C D/G etc.
@lazyhound
Can I expect to hear a rendering of "Cook in the Kitchen" on your D/G Baffetti at the N.V. session next Tuesday, then?
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: B/C D/G etc.
No, not for quite a while - work is still very much in progress
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: B/C D/G etc.
Incidentally, the screen name of the initiator of this discussion is one of the best on this website. Says it all really.
# Posted on January 7th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: B/C D/G etc.
The B/C is a Tony Blair or a Jackson Pollock type of instrument, while the D/G is a Gordon Brown or a Rothko.
I hope this is helpful.
(........?!)
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by nicholas
Re: B/C D/G etc.
Or, more briely:
The B/C is a fox;
The D/G is a hedgehog.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by nicholas
Re: B/C D/G etc.
I prefer Rothko and hedgehogs - get that one
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by airport
Re: B/C D/G etc.
actually though, if C#/D is like a Ramsay MacDonald or an Agnes Martin, then that's cools too
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by airport
Re: B/C D/G etc.
Why bother with D/G box?
Go Anglo - there are cheap 3 rows of playable standard nowadays to see if you can cope with a proper chromatic instrument. Have a look at a rochelle or morse.
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by geoffwright
Re: B/C D/G etc.
get a B/C that you like the sound of, and persevere
just as importantly, get one that plays freely
as a beginner, you can't know the difference, and it isn't really down to price (although some of the very cheapest boxes will never play well)
playing freely (in my lexicon) means
1. having flexible bellows that can open and close easily when a key is pressed down
2. having reeds that speak loud and clear without the need for high pressure on the bellows
3. having keys that have a short travel, sit on rigid levers with springs set as soft as possible
these three features aren't the exclusice preserve of top of the range boxes - indeed, many top name boxes are marketed with stiff bellows, stiff reeds and hard springs
a decent box repairer should be able to sort out spring settings and reeds. sometimes you can play the stiffness out of new bellows - but not always
you can waste years fighting a box which suffers from nothing more than poor or nonexistent setup. don't - it can wreck your sanity and your tendons
# Posted on January 8th 2010 by millionyears_bc