I am curious about the current production of Saltarelle accordeons.
One self proclaimed USA "accordion engineer" says they are rubbish and the reeds are of modest quality and very poorly set up and tuned. For reasons I will not state, I do not trust his judgement.
I have some past familiarity with Saltarelles and have known them to be of variable quality, both in the reeds used and the general construction. Some were very good and some very bad.
Given that Saltarelles are rebadged, generally thought to be made by Dino Baffetti, and not actually made by Saltarelle , it is possible that quality control might still be spotty.
Saltarelle (Geroge Roux) claims that the reeds in the Nuage and the Irish Bouebe are "hand made"..
though I have not seen them and can not be certain.. I think it unlikely.
Does anyone have actual hands on expereince with the recent Nuages and Irish Bouebes who might shed some light on this , ie the quality of the construction and quality of the reeds and tuning on current production. ?
I have no possibility of any hands on inspection... and would appreciate the help as I am considering one over the Castagnaris... of which I have owned 6....
reason ?... sound.... I like the Saltarelle sound...
And perhaps that should be enough, however I am a stickler for quality... and would perfer not to compromise.
Talked to a young fella who played some blistering box at the Woodford Festival over New Years. He had the same doubts about hand finishing, but apart from reducing the strength of the springs on the keyboard he hadn't needed to do anything else to his. I'm considering a Rivage myself, and had the same uneasiness about quality
If the maker of these boxes can be switched arbitrarily by the distributor and if the words of the distributor cannot be trusted then it's useless to depend upon the testimonials of recent purchasers unless each of them knows who made the box, knows when it was made, received the information from a reliable source other than the distributor and that the box intended for purchase is from one of the known lots of production described by such recent purchasers therefore, a "stickler for quality" most likely would be compelled to play the exact box intended for purchase.
Saltarelles are re-badged Serenellini's in France. Quality is thought to be better as they supe them up with fretted keyboards and stops etc. As for the reeds i can't really say as to the quality.
If the images of both the 233 and the Nuage have not been stretched inadvertently during processing, apart from its many cosmetic differences with the 233, the Nuage appears to have a significantly deeper treble reed chamber,. If true, that would make it more than just being a rebadged 233 but rather a significantly different model.
I see what you mean about the chamber looking deeper but to my knowledge they are both 3 voice instruments.
They are both the same shell to start with now wether Saltarelle decide to make the reed chambers deeper for a different sound could be plausable. This would make it a totally different model like you say.
It's been dicussed before about the two being the same.
Maybe their mysterious origin is part of a brilliant Gallic marketing strategy.
Regardless, it highlights the paramount importance of either playing a box before buying it or casting off a life of suspicion to adopt one of abundant faith.
Just to add on a side note joesmith my local tuner in Birmingham is a U.K distributor for Serenellini and he swears by them (although he would wouldn't he) and i've played on a few he has in his shop and they are very well made with a fast response.
I just haven't been able to compare side by side with the equivalent Saltarelles.
Hope this helps.
My Saltarelle Irish Bouebe is about 8 years old, don't know how the reeds were made, but I am very happy with its quality. I had it retuned last winter, but other than needing a tune-up because of a few notes that had gotten 'wetter' than desired, it has played dependably for all these years. But then again, except for a cheap Chinese box I learned on, I haven't played a lot of other instruments, so I don't have much to compare it with.
A friend has lent me his spare Dino Baffetti to learn on, with an option to buy. It's a model #86 D/G 19 buttons - see their website for a pic http://www.baffetti-accordions.com/diatonic1.htm. As a pianist I must say I'm quite happy with the button action - lightness, smoothness and speed, and with the bellows action. The instrument is sturdily made (wood) and, to my eyes, is a nice example of good Italian design. And I like the sound.
Serenellini was responsible for the first models to be designated "Nuage"
I owned 2 of the 233 Deluxe models, one in D/G (,the first one in the US to my knowledge.
Also a C#/D which may also have been the first in the US
These date to 1995 ad 1996.
I sold them both ( along with a few Castagnaris) when I bought a piece of property
Serenellini has not made the Saltarelle badged instruments for many years.
There are more differences such as solid wood ( massive) vs laminated (plywood) between Sernellini and Saltarelle/baffetti
The testimonials of recent purchasers could provide information such as the current fit and finish, and if curious and knowledgeable, they could identify the reed quality and possibly even reed the reed makers name off the reed plate, as well as other details such as the valve material and general construction quality of the innards.
I did not ask for the name of the actual maker. It is commonly accepted that Dino Baffetti is the current maker. I have no objections to that, a friend has a Dino badged Dino 3 row with handmade reeds that is a very fine accordeon.
As I posted earlier " I have no possibility of hands on inspection"... the request for information seems reasonable..
" Suspicion" is not on the menu, curiousity... maybe.
Abundant faith is for fools.
Thanks ; , informed, helpful comments welcomed.
upmine3... who might be your tuner/dealer of the Serenellini ?
Irish Bouebes of the the older vintage were known to have DURAL quality reeds.
Some say that is still the case, others say the reeds are upgraded. I'll do some more investigation and see what gives.
BTW the first official dealer for England was Rod Stradling ( or so he said) and he informed me many years ago that the Irish Bouebe was the first accordeon from Saltarelle that was built using CNC production techniques.. his words.. not mine.
As I understand it, all the main manufacturers are in the Castelfidardo area, with many of the workforce being ex-Paulo Soprani. I've been told the parts are mass produced and commonly used, so the quality is likely to be very similar in terms of reeds, with the action being the only variant.
I'd also heard that Baffetti are the current source for Saltarelle. All the Baffetti boxes I've encountered seem to be good quality, much enjoyed by their owners.
Painted laquer black finish tends to be wearing at contact points. Basses have a bit of a click to them. But otherwise very fast box with a nice sound.
I have been thinking about a nuage, and contemplating Herself's reaction to that discussion. But that may be awhile as I also am thinking about a Casti for contrast, because the one's I have heard have a mellower sound than Saltarelle. Not a criticism of the Saltarelle, The Saltarelle cuts through the background, but tends to be a bit brassy where a 'warmer' expression seems appropriate.
I have owned several Castagnaris. Generally speaking, the materials and workmanship are in my opinion superior to Saltarelle. And true, the Castagnaris tend to be more mellow..
Some I have heard call them furniture with reeds... which can be taken many ways
Historically, Saltarelles, particularly those with black finishes, seem to be a bit "shoddy" My observations is that the natural wood ones, specifically the stepped keyboard models are made better than the so called "Sterling line.. which includes the Connemaras and the Nuage and variants.
There is a distinct Saltarelle sound.. It seems more "ballsy" than the Castagnaris.
There are some tuning differences as well.
Castagnaris "swing" is quite dry and Saltarelles swing has more tremolo...
In the past most Saltarelles had "DURAL" reeds until they had a reed war with Castagnari... then the reed quality went up.. but not on all models
Originally only the Nuage and the Connemaras had the better reeds.. all else including the Irish Bouebe had DURAL
but that was not always true.. Like Gibson guitars, Saltarelle is consistent in their inconsistencies,
One owner of a newer Saltarelle contacted Gerorge Roux about the reeds in his box because his tuner identified them as TAM, Roux said they were a mano. The owner of the box had another tuner look at it and confirmed the reeds were tipo a mano, not a mano...
So the suggestion that it was not an acceptable position to trust the "maker"/ distributor... seems to be unfounded and
the information was self serving.
If you are thinking about a Saltarelle... find a reputable dealer who is willing to look at and even show you the reeds.. and tune the box before delivery..
I did get one rather bad example of a Castagnari Mory.. Neither the dealer in Germany nor Castagnari would stand behind their supposed "warranty"... the tuning was simply awful.
One row to 441 another to 443 and the 1/2 rrow to no identifiable base line... and no row was in tune to itself. That cost me $375 before it was right. So even Castagnari can screw up.
I have made an executive decision.
I am going to stick with single rows for the moment and am eagerly awaiting delivery of a MELODIE... due sometime before May.
I will check out the Serenellini source in G B ( thanks again)
and if that does not work out....
If a nice 2 or 2 1/2 or 3 row box falls on me... I may go for it.. but I am not willing to take a chance on an unknown quantity.
And FWIW,, The Button Box in Mass is simply an outstanding place to do business.
i actually vastly prefer the saltarelle voice personality, whether you call it ballsy or what. i do think the casti personality is beautiful, i just like the salt personality better.
however, i play castagnari because the saltarelle is just too stiff for me to play at a fast dance speed. it's fine for slow playing, but i have it for fast playing. the way accordion prices have skyrocketed over the last seven or so years it is nothing short of an outrage that they have not upgraded the reeds that come in nuages and bouebes. it's not like my complaint is unique or anything.
i purchased a nuage new from john williams in 2004-ish. he did not represent the reeds as handmade or TAM, and indeed my local tech confirmed that they were decent-quality factory reeds. i love the way this box sounds but never play it.
i recently had an email exchange with someone from saltarelle inquiring about the reeds in the salt CBA, the chaville, and was told that the chaville AND the nuage have handmade reeds. i wrote back about my own nuage and was told again that nuage has handmade reeds. i also have a bouebe whose personality i love, which i never play.
so all i can tell you is, if you buy one, build in an inspection period into the deal so you can have the reeds checked out.
if he's telling the truth that nuaes currently have handmade reeds, this is a change from just a few years ago, and i would like to have one. an MMM. however, the inspection/verification period would be a requirement because their word is just not reliable. i'm not saying they're deliberately lying. i'm saying the whole business with salts being contracted out and made by god-knows-who and god-knows-where has resulted in a situation where it's just insure as to what's in them....
I really like my Connemara III. Very comfortable box to play.
Interesting comment on the action above. The Conn III Action on mine is firmer, but not slower. I have a Guistozzi two row, slightly stepped, and I find its action quick, but not with the same level of control I feel in the Conn II. Guistozzi is a very nice box for what I paid for it just the same. Soprani reeds. But I had to put some 'real' money into the tuning. The Italians really like their tremolo IrishDancemaster did a great job with that.
I suppose the Saltarelle could be characterized as 'rowdy'. In big reverberant spaces, its sound really carries.
I'm a baffled by the Saltarelle v Serenellini discussion here - I did not realise that there were question marks over quality. I've only been playing for just over a year on a chinese box and am now looking to buy a proper accordion to last my for years. I want one with 12 bass buttons and preferably the extra 4 or 5 trebles.
Above post says those black Serenellinis with the extra half row and 12 basses and not all that well made. In fact, I was just about to buy one.
Can someone recommend a good alternative? I love the Serenellini/Saltarelle sound. Also, by coincidence I am moving to Italy soon and will be based not too far from the town of Castelfidardo. Would it be a good idea to buy one over there?
Saltarelle Quality
Saltarelle Quality
I am curious about the current production of Saltarelle accordeons.
One self proclaimed USA "accordion engineer" says they are rubbish and the reeds are of modest quality and very poorly set up and tuned. For reasons I will not state, I do not trust his judgement.
I have some past familiarity with Saltarelles and have known them to be of variable quality, both in the reeds used and the general construction. Some were very good and some very bad.
Given that Saltarelles are rebadged, generally thought to be made by Dino Baffetti, and not actually made by Saltarelle , it is possible that quality control might still be spotty.
Saltarelle (Geroge Roux) claims that the reeds in the Nuage and the Irish Bouebe are "hand made"..
though I have not seen them and can not be certain.. I think it unlikely.
Does anyone have actual hands on expereince with the recent Nuages and Irish Bouebes who might shed some light on this , ie the quality of the construction and quality of the reeds and tuning on current production. ?
I have no possibility of any hands on inspection... and would appreciate the help as I am considering one over the Castagnaris... of which I have owned 6....
reason ?... sound.... I like the Saltarelle sound...
And perhaps that should be enough, however I am a stickler for quality... and would perfer not to compromise.
Thanks....
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by bohemian
Re: Saltarelle Quality
No problems yet with my Saltarelle Connemara, bought new in 1997 or thereabouts.
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by nicholas
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Talked to a young fella who played some blistering box at the Woodford Festival over New Years. He had the same doubts about hand finishing, but apart from reducing the strength of the springs on the keyboard he hadn't needed to do anything else to his. I'm considering a Rivage myself, and had the same uneasiness about quality
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by bc_box_player
Re: Saltarelle Quality
If the maker of these boxes can be switched arbitrarily by the distributor and if the words of the distributor cannot be trusted then it's useless to depend upon the testimonials of recent purchasers unless each of them knows who made the box, knows when it was made, received the information from a reliable source other than the distributor and that the box intended for purchase is from one of the known lots of production described by such recent purchasers therefore, a "stickler for quality" most likely would be compelled to play the exact box intended for purchase.
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by ∅
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Saltarelles are re-badged Serenellini's in France. Quality is thought to be better as they supe them up with fretted keyboards and stops etc. As for the reeds i can't really say as to the quality.
Here is a Serenellini 233 (cloud)
http://www.jollybox.co.uk/Ser233D%20page.htm
Here is the same box now called a Saltarelle Nuage
http://www.buttonbox.com/images/nuage.jpg
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by upmine3
Re: Saltarelle Quality
If the images of both the 233 and the Nuage have not been stretched inadvertently during processing, apart from its many cosmetic differences with the 233, the Nuage appears to have a significantly deeper treble reed chamber,. If true, that would make it more than just being a rebadged 233 but rather a significantly different model.
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by ∅
Re: Saltarelle Quality
I see what you mean about the chamber looking deeper but to my knowledge they are both 3 voice instruments.
They are both the same shell to start with now wether Saltarelle decide to make the reed chambers deeper for a different sound could be plausable. This would make it a totally different model like you say.
It's been dicussed before about the two being the same.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4290
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by upmine3
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Maybe their mysterious origin is part of a brilliant Gallic marketing strategy.
Regardless, it highlights the paramount importance of either playing a box before buying it or casting off a life of suspicion to adopt one of abundant faith.
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by ∅
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Just to add on a side note joesmith my local tuner in Birmingham is a U.K distributor for Serenellini and he swears by them (although he would wouldn't he) and i've played on a few he has in his shop and they are very well made with a fast response.
I just haven't been able to compare side by side with the equivalent Saltarelles.
Hope this helps.
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by upmine3
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Someone needs to start a wiki on Saltarelle me thinks.
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by upmine3
Re: Saltarelle Quality
My Saltarelle Irish Bouebe is about 8 years old, don't know how the reeds were made, but I am very happy with its quality. I had it retuned last winter, but other than needing a tune-up because of a few notes that had gotten 'wetter' than desired, it has played dependably for all these years. But then again, except for a cheap Chinese box I learned on, I haven't played a lot of other instruments, so I don't have much to compare it with.
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Saltarelle Quality
A friend has lent me his spare Dino Baffetti to learn on, with an option to buy. It's a model #86 D/G 19 buttons - see their website for a pic http://www.baffetti-accordions.com/diatonic1.htm. As a pianist I must say I'm quite happy with the button action - lightness, smoothness and speed, and with the bellows action. The instrument is sturdily made (wood) and, to my eyes, is a nice example of good Italian design. And I like the sound.
# Posted on January 3rd 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Serenellini was responsible for the first models to be designated "Nuage"
I owned 2 of the 233 Deluxe models, one in D/G (,the first one in the US to my knowledge.
Also a C#/D which may also have been the first in the US
These date to 1995 ad 1996.
I sold them both ( along with a few Castagnaris) when I bought a piece of property
Serenellini has not made the Saltarelle badged instruments for many years.
There are more differences such as solid wood ( massive) vs laminated (plywood) between Sernellini and Saltarelle/baffetti
The testimonials of recent purchasers could provide information such as the current fit and finish, and if curious and knowledgeable, they could identify the reed quality and possibly even reed the reed makers name off the reed plate, as well as other details such as the valve material and general construction quality of the innards.
I did not ask for the name of the actual maker. It is commonly accepted that Dino Baffetti is the current maker. I have no objections to that, a friend has a Dino badged Dino 3 row with handmade reeds that is a very fine accordeon.
As I posted earlier " I have no possibility of hands on inspection"... the request for information seems reasonable..
" Suspicion" is not on the menu, curiousity... maybe.
Abundant faith is for fools.
Thanks ; , informed, helpful comments welcomed.
upmine3... who might be your tuner/dealer of the Serenellini ?
# Posted on January 4th 2010 by bohemian
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Joe Smith
I understand you may be a B/C player
Out of curiousity, what maker of box or boxes do you play ?
# Posted on January 4th 2010 by bohemian
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Joe
No need to answer this as I see your "perspective" ,
which I respect.
Scroll down for your comments on another thread..
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7096
Irish Bouebes of the the older vintage were known to have DURAL quality reeds.
Some say that is still the case, others say the reeds are upgraded. I'll do some more investigation and see what gives.
BTW the first official dealer for England was Rod Stradling ( or so he said) and he informed me many years ago that the Irish Bouebe was the first accordeon from Saltarelle that was built using CNC production techniques.. his words.. not mine.
# Posted on January 4th 2010 by bohemian
Re: Saltarelle Quality
As I understand it, all the main manufacturers are in the Castelfidardo area, with many of the workforce being ex-Paulo Soprani. I've been told the parts are mass produced and commonly used, so the quality is likely to be very similar in terms of reeds, with the action being the only variant.
I'd also heard that Baffetti are the current source for Saltarelle. All the Baffetti boxes I've encountered seem to be good quality, much enjoyed by their owners.
# Posted on January 4th 2010 by bc_box_player
Re: Saltarelle Quality
There are at least a half dozen reed suppliers in Italy and more in the Czech republic and Germany.
Add to that the various levels from machine made to hand made, and there are endless possibilities.
Baffeti also makes inexpensive accordions with lesser quality materials in addition to their higher quality units.
# Posted on January 4th 2010 by bohemian
Re: Saltarelle Quality
bohemian my local tuner is Rob Beescroft he's a PA player himself but deals with the repair and tuning of button boxes too, here's his site:
http://www.accordioncentre.co.uk/
# Posted on January 4th 2010 by upmine3
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Interesting post.
I have a Connemara III. nice box.
Painted laquer black finish tends to be wearing at contact points. Basses have a bit of a click to them. But otherwise very fast box with a nice sound.
I have been thinking about a nuage, and contemplating Herself's reaction to that discussion. But that may be awhile as I also am thinking about a Casti for contrast, because the one's I have heard have a mellower sound than Saltarelle. Not a criticism of the Saltarelle, The Saltarelle cuts through the background, but tends to be a bit brassy where a 'warmer' expression seems appropriate.
# Posted on January 4th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Saltarelle Quality
Thanks for the link upmine3
zippydw ,
BTW my cat's name is "zippy"
I have owned several Castagnaris. Generally speaking, the materials and workmanship are in my opinion superior to Saltarelle. And true, the Castagnaris tend to be more mellow..
Some I have heard call them furniture with reeds... which can be taken many ways
Historically, Saltarelles, particularly those with black finishes, seem to be a bit "shoddy" My observations is that the natural wood ones, specifically the stepped keyboard models are made better than the so called "Sterling line.. which includes the Connemaras and the Nuage and variants.
There is a distinct Saltarelle sound.. It seems more "ballsy" than the Castagnaris.
There are some tuning differences as well.
Castagnaris "swing" is quite dry and Saltarelles swing has more tremolo...
In the past most Saltarelles had "DURAL" reeds until they had a reed war with Castagnari... then the reed quality went up.. but not on all models
Originally only the Nuage and the Connemaras had the better reeds.. all else including the Irish Bouebe had DURAL
but that was not always true.. Like Gibson guitars, Saltarelle is consistent in their inconsistencies,
One owner of a newer Saltarelle contacted Gerorge Roux about the reeds in his box because his tuner identified them as TAM, Roux said they were a mano. The owner of the box had another tuner look at it and confirmed the reeds were tipo a mano, not a mano...
So the suggestion that it was not an acceptable position to trust the "maker"/ distributor... seems to be unfounded and
the information was self serving.
If you are thinking about a Saltarelle... find a reputable dealer who is willing to look at and even show you the reeds.. and tune the box before delivery..
I did get one rather bad example of a Castagnari Mory.. Neither the dealer in Germany nor Castagnari would stand behind their supposed "warranty"... the tuning was simply awful.
One row to 441 another to 443 and the 1/2 rrow to no identifiable base line... and no row was in tune to itself. That cost me $375 before it was right. So even Castagnari can screw up.
I have made an executive decision.
I am going to stick with single rows for the moment and am eagerly awaiting delivery of a MELODIE... due sometime before May.
I will check out the Serenellini source in G B ( thanks again)
and if that does not work out....
If a nice 2 or 2 1/2 or 3 row box falls on me... I may go for it.. but I am not willing to take a chance on an unknown quantity.
And FWIW,, The Button Box in Mass is simply an outstanding place to do business.
# Posted on January 4th 2010 by bohemian
Re: Saltarelle Quality
i actually vastly prefer the saltarelle voice personality, whether you call it ballsy or what. i do think the casti personality is beautiful, i just like the salt personality better.
however, i play castagnari because the saltarelle is just too stiff for me to play at a fast dance speed. it's fine for slow playing, but i have it for fast playing. the way accordion prices have skyrocketed over the last seven or so years it is nothing short of an outrage that they have not upgraded the reeds that come in nuages and bouebes. it's not like my complaint is unique or anything.
i purchased a nuage new from john williams in 2004-ish. he did not represent the reeds as handmade or TAM, and indeed my local tech confirmed that they were decent-quality factory reeds. i love the way this box sounds but never play it.
i recently had an email exchange with someone from saltarelle inquiring about the reeds in the salt CBA, the chaville, and was told that the chaville AND the nuage have handmade reeds. i wrote back about my own nuage and was told again that nuage has handmade reeds. i also have a bouebe whose personality i love, which i never play.
so all i can tell you is, if you buy one, build in an inspection period into the deal so you can have the reeds checked out.
if he's telling the truth that nuaes currently have handmade reeds, this is a change from just a few years ago, and i would like to have one. an MMM. however, the inspection/verification period would be a requirement because their word is just not reliable. i'm not saying they're deliberately lying. i'm saying the whole business with salts being contracted out and made by god-knows-who and god-knows-where has resulted in a situation where it's just insure as to what's in them....
# Posted on January 5th 2010 by ceemonster
Re: Saltarelle Quality
My observations and sentiments concur with yours
I do not think that there is deliberate malicious, misrepresentation.. but they have been known to NOT
be consistent.
Who knows.. maybe Dino is slipping it to them.
I also have it that the famous folks who own and play Salts have genuine handmade reeds in their boxes. This from one of the "famous" that play them.
I find Castagnaris very refined... Saltarelle a bit rowdy.
# Posted on January 5th 2010 by bohemian
Re: Saltarelle Quality
my Conn III from 1990s had handmade reeds I got it 2nd hand from Oakwood in Leeds UK Lovely box
# Posted on January 5th 2010 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Saltarelle Quality
I really like my Connemara III. Very comfortable box to play.
IrishDancemaster did a great job with that.
Interesting comment on the action above. The Conn III Action on mine is firmer, but not slower. I have a Guistozzi two row, slightly stepped, and I find its action quick, but not with the same level of control I feel in the Conn II. Guistozzi is a very nice box for what I paid for it just the same. Soprani reeds. But I had to put some 'real' money into the tuning. The Italians really like their tremolo
I suppose the Saltarelle could be characterized as 'rowdy'. In big reverberant spaces, its sound really carries.
# Posted on January 5th 2010 by zippydw
Re: Saltarelle Quality
I'm a baffled by the Saltarelle v Serenellini discussion here - I did not realise that there were question marks over quality. I've only been playing for just over a year on a chinese box and am now looking to buy a proper accordion to last my for years. I want one with 12 bass buttons and preferably the extra 4 or 5 trebles.
Above post says those black Serenellinis with the extra half row and 12 basses and not all that well made. In fact, I was just about to buy one.
Can someone recommend a good alternative? I love the Serenellini/Saltarelle sound. Also, by coincidence I am moving to Italy soon and will be based not too far from the town of Castelfidardo. Would it be a good idea to buy one over there?
# Posted on May 11th 2011 by sandwich