First off I'd like to say how grateful I am for the growing tune database this site hosts and I use it regularly to support other music sources. If I ever get around to learning abc I'll try to do my civic duty and post a few myself.
I noticed from an earlier thread that a member had posted a tune he had written himself. Now I really love the fact that people can put their own tunes on here - I've learned at least a couple gems (bang your frog was cool) and what I'm suggesting isn't meant as a criticism for the existing system.
But as far as I can tell there isn't really any quality filter in place for new tunes, and as someone who enjoys just browsing through whatever is in the database, I felt a small chill when I glanced over this new tune I mentioned earlier. If over time the time-tested traditional tunes and the quality originals get immersed in a bed of amature attempts it would greatly depreciate the experience - it would be frustrating to wade through everything trying to locate something of quality.
I realize of course that everyone's definition of quality will be different, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from posting what they've written... And I want the chance to check out those tunes! So here's my suggestion:
What if there was a seperate place to upload original compositions... perhaps with a more formal ratings system, so that writers could get feedback and cruisers like myself could filter out the poorer attempts? Sort of like a 'hot or not' for tunes? Does this sound draconian or does anyone think this might be a good addition to this excellent site?
Hey! That's a great idea, and we were just discussing that in the Copyright? discussion a little bit. Maybe this would be a good place to continue that. I think that a seperate category for original tunes would be really neat, and then that would leave the normal tunes category for trad tunes. Anybody else like the idea?
Sounds good to me.
I've avoided posting any tunes because most of the Irish tunes I play are already included, and some folks around here get upset if you post tunes not in their definition of the tradition.
There are some really good tunes played at the sessions I attend in Manchester UK a lot of which are from other (Old Time, Scottish, Northumberland, French, Breton, etc) traditions. We also play locally grown tunes without embarrassment.
We actually have a great many tunes that are written by members (Will, Gian Marco, Brad, to name just three). Some disappear into the archive without ceremony and others are polished up and cherished. I am not sure that we need a new place for new tunes setting them apart from others -- a new site for composers to debut their tunes and to get feedback of the more technical sort would be fabulous though -- but if a tune is good, I think Jeremy meant the comments to be for that kind of feedback. However, a way to easily find new tunes (although what happens when they stop being new?) would be nice -- perhaps by composer?
A thought that just came to me - making a category of tunes composed by members retrospective could be tedious unless Jeremy has a hidden data field for "composer" in the database. It would otherwise mean trawling through the details of over 2100 tune in order to identify the member-composers. One way, I suppose, of occupying oneself in the long winter evenings when there's no session on and practice is done for the day
Trevor
Treabhar - I may be misunderstanding your post, but if Jeremy did decide to implement a new system, I don't think it would be necessary to wade through the tunes already in the db; I would think it would only need to apply to new uploads.
Zina - my suggestion wasn't coming from any concern about *good* original tunes; we have lots of those and I think everyone likes that. My concern was that we could, over time, have a database full of *bad* tunes hiding the good ones. Right now I can select something based on key/type etc and be reasonably sure it's a tune that someone might want to play in a session (even if I don't like it). What if some growing percentage of those tunes play like a violin scale excercise (written by someone who doesn't really know what they are doing yet)? I'm not trying to start a discussion about what makes a tune "valid"; I just am concerned about what might happen to this site as the db gets bigger.
Another issue is that as a session player I might only be interested in tunes that *are* played in sessions in other places (or I might only be interested in originals)... there often isn't an easy way to find out which is which without visually wading through the comments section of each tune.
I agree with glenn: I think it'd be excellent to have a separate space
for new tunes. If nothing else, it could add to the site; after all,
there's a comment section for each tune, and that would be
particularly relevant and interesting when the person that had written
the tune was a regular participant on the site. The division would
work both ways: if I'm looking for a good session tune, I don't
particularly want to find a tune that's only been played by one
person, but on the other hand, if I'm looking for new and interesting
tunes, it'd be nice to look through a set of "self-penned" tunes, and
hopefully give some positive feedback to the author. If played right,
you might even have some of those tunes being played in discerning
sessions across the globe. It already happened with that strathspey,
what was it? "the slough of mediocrity" or something? I'm sure that
was only because it was known to be an original composition. If
Jeremy does this, I'll post a few of my tunes and you can all laugh at
their banality!
I first visited this site in the hopes of finding just this. I have done a bit of writing and some friends suggested that I post some of my tunes here and get some feedback on them.
A section for folks like myself who love to write as well as play all the "old favorites" would be great!
By the same token, we have tunes written by contemporary musicians which have quickly travelled, changed name and become trad repertoire in the database as the poster does not know the composer.
I recall a Custy cd which has a track labelled "trad" which was actually John Kirkpatrick "Jump at the sun".
Isn't this as bad as pinching a trad tune and renaming it as your own?
Speaking of which, geoff, my friend Joey just re-discovered a CD he had from the 80's, I forget the band's name,. but they had a couple traditonal tunes on it which they re-named and took credit for as their own! One of the tunes was Morrison's Jig which they described as a lovely air capturing the beauty of ancient Scotland!! That is not verbatim, but very close to what they said. At least they could have chosen a less common tune that maybe not thousands of people already know by name!!
.... Ehhhh , I am now a little worried as I have posted some tunes I wrote to the list and I am still a relatively
new ITRAD player. SO, if they were bad tunes, my apologies. One way that this might be
handled would be to send the offending author some feedback off list. While I would not recommend
"What Cr..p" being posted to the comments section. COmments like "an interesting warm up exercise," or "reminds me of
my practice assignments when I had lessons," or "might be useful if you were teaching fiddle to kids" would be appropriate.
Of course, you could simply say in the comments section... "Play for another few years and then start posting."
I can tell you that I would rather know that something I have posted is bad than to embarrass
myself by playing it at a session (or with other players more informally) thinking it was a good effort!!!!
This all begs the question, how do you tell a good tune from a bad one?
Well, John, if you think it's good and then it turns out that other people think it's not, then you have a whole nother set of worms to deal with. Too complicated for me. And besides, I'm still learning the standards. And on top of that, I'll sometimes play through a tune off sheet music and decide it's not my cup of tea, and then I hear someone else play it out, and discover that I just played it too poorly to know it was a good tune. So I don't usually offer too many judgements on whether a tune is good or not, just whether I like it or not, here or in meatspace.
"Good" and "bad" are subjective, really. Moving target.
Hey John,
Ditto what Zina says, but also remember that you might come up with a nice jig or reel that works just fine, but not necessarily within the Irish trad scene. Your 'New School Year' jig for instance doesn't strike my ear as particularly Irish. More Canadian or something, so maybe it wouldn't go over well at a hardcore Irish session, but it might be welcomed in other forums.
The further you immerse yourself in one genre, I think the easier it is to compose tunes that will fit that form. Irish trad music is full of subtleties and nuances that most people miss until they've played for some years and internalized several hundreds of tunes, so be patient with yourself.
Thanks. Just got back from our session this afternoon. It really IS about playing the music after all and we had a great time. I think the great thing about ITRAD is that there are so many tunes to learn
This list is great for developing an understanding of the tradition.
AND both Zina and Will, you both should know that your postings have really helped me to start to understand what Irish music is all about. I look forward to reading them whenever I log on.
Hot or not - for tunes
Hot or not - for tunes
First off I'd like to say how grateful I am for the growing tune database this site hosts and I use it regularly to support other music sources. If I ever get around to learning abc I'll try to do my civic duty and post a few myself.
I noticed from an earlier thread that a member had posted a tune he had written himself. Now I really love the fact that people can put their own tunes on here - I've learned at least a couple gems (bang your frog was cool) and what I'm suggesting isn't meant as a criticism for the existing system.
But as far as I can tell there isn't really any quality filter in place for new tunes, and as someone who enjoys just browsing through whatever is in the database, I felt a small chill when I glanced over this new tune I mentioned earlier. If over time the time-tested traditional tunes and the quality originals get immersed in a bed of amature attempts it would greatly depreciate the experience - it would be frustrating to wade through everything trying to locate something of quality.
I realize of course that everyone's definition of quality will be different, and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from posting what they've written... And I want the chance to check out those tunes! So here's my suggestion:
What if there was a seperate place to upload original compositions... perhaps with a more formal ratings system, so that writers could get feedback and cruisers like myself could filter out the poorer attempts? Sort of like a 'hot or not' for tunes? Does this sound draconian or does anyone think this might be a good addition to this excellent site?
-glenn
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by glenn
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Hey! That's a great idea, and we were just discussing that in the Copyright? discussion a little bit. Maybe this would be a good place to continue that. I think that a seperate category for original tunes would be really neat, and then that would leave the normal tunes category for trad tunes. Anybody else like the idea?
-Max
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Max Becher
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Aye, cracking idea.
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by jkneale
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Sounds good to me.
I've avoided posting any tunes because most of the Irish tunes I play are already included, and some folks around here get upset if you post tunes not in their definition of the tradition.
There are some really good tunes played at the sessions I attend in Manchester UK a lot of which are from other (Old Time, Scottish, Northumberland, French, Breton, etc) traditions. We also play locally grown tunes without embarrassment.
TTFN
PP
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Excellent idea that, a separate category for original tunes. How about it, Jeremy?
Trevor
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
We actually have a great many tunes that are written by members (Will, Gian Marco, Brad, to name just three). Some disappear into the archive without ceremony and others are polished up and cherished. I am not sure that we need a new place for new tunes setting them apart from others -- a new site for composers to debut their tunes and to get feedback of the more technical sort would be fabulous though -- but if a tune is good, I think Jeremy meant the comments to be for that kind of feedback. However, a way to easily find new tunes (although what happens when they stop being new?) would be nice -- perhaps by composer?
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
A thought that just came to me - making a category of tunes composed by members retrospective could be tedious unless Jeremy has a hidden data field for "composer" in the database. It would otherwise mean trawling through the details of over 2100 tune in order to identify the member-composers. One way, I suppose, of occupying oneself in the long winter evenings when there's no session on and practice is done for the day
Trevor
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Treabhar - I may be misunderstanding your post, but if Jeremy did decide to implement a new system, I don't think it would be necessary to wade through the tunes already in the db; I would think it would only need to apply to new uploads.
Zina - my suggestion wasn't coming from any concern about *good* original tunes; we have lots of those and I think everyone likes that. My concern was that we could, over time, have a database full of *bad* tunes hiding the good ones. Right now I can select something based on key/type etc and be reasonably sure it's a tune that someone might want to play in a session (even if I don't like it). What if some growing percentage of those tunes play like a violin scale excercise (written by someone who doesn't really know what they are doing yet)? I'm not trying to start a discussion about what makes a tune "valid"; I just am concerned about what might happen to this site as the db gets bigger.
Another issue is that as a session player I might only be interested in tunes that *are* played in sessions in other places (or I might only be interested in originals)... there often isn't an easy way to find out which is which without visually wading through the comments section of each tune.
-glenn
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by glenn
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
I agree with glenn: I think it'd be excellent to have a separate space for new tunes. If nothing else, it could add to the site; after all, there's a comment section for each tune, and that would be particularly relevant and interesting when the person that had written the tune was a regular participant on the site. The division would work both ways: if I'm looking for a good session tune, I don't particularly want to find a tune that's only been played by one person, but on the other hand, if I'm looking for new and interesting tunes, it'd be nice to look through a set of "self-penned" tunes, and hopefully give some positive feedback to the author. If played right, you might even have some of those tunes being played in discerning sessions across the globe. It already happened with that strathspey, what was it? "the slough of mediocrity" or something? I'm sure that was only because it was known to be an original composition. If Jeremy does this, I'll post a few of my tunes and you can all laugh at their banality!
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by rog
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
I think this sounds like a great idea.
I first visited this site in the hopes of finding just this. I have done a bit of writing and some friends suggested that I post some of my tunes here and get some feedback on them.
A section for folks like myself who love to write as well as play all the "old favorites" would be great!
-Billy
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Billy White
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
By the same token, we have tunes written by contemporary musicians which have quickly travelled, changed name and become trad repertoire in the database as the poster does not know the composer.
I recall a Custy cd which has a track labelled "trad" which was actually John Kirkpatrick "Jump at the sun".
Isn't this as bad as pinching a trad tune and renaming it as your own?
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Speaking of which, geoff, my friend Joey just re-discovered a CD he had from the 80's, I forget the band's name,. but they had a couple traditonal tunes on it which they re-named and took credit for as their own! One of the tunes was Morrison's Jig which they described as a lovely air capturing the beauty of ancient Scotland!! That is not verbatim, but very close to what they said. At least they could have chosen a less common tune that maybe not thousands of people already know by name!!
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by Andee
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Andee
That story made my morning. How cool
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by glenn
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
hehehe...they didn't really, did they? *snicker*
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
They did, unfortunately...
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by Andee
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
.... Ehhhh , I am now a little worried as I have posted some tunes I wrote to the list and I am still a relatively
new ITRAD player. SO, if they were bad tunes, my apologies. One way that this might be
handled would be to send the offending author some feedback off list. While I would not recommend
"What Cr..p" being posted to the comments section. COmments like "an interesting warm up exercise," or "reminds me of
my practice assignments when I had lessons," or "might be useful if you were teaching fiddle to kids" would be appropriate.
Of course, you could simply say in the comments section... "Play for another few years and then start posting."
I can tell you that I would rather know that something I have posted is bad than to embarrass
myself by playing it at a session (or with other players more informally) thinking it was a good effort!!!!
This all begs the question, how do you tell a good tune from a bad one?
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by johnbunch
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Well, John, if you think it's good and then it turns out that other people think it's not, then you have a whole nother set of worms to deal with. Too complicated for me. And besides, I'm still learning the standards. And on top of that, I'll sometimes play through a tune off sheet music and decide it's not my cup of tea, and then I hear someone else play it out, and discover that I just played it too poorly to know it was a good tune. So I don't usually offer too many judgements on whether a tune is good or not, just whether I like it or not, here or in meatspace.
"Good" and "bad" are subjective, really. Moving target.
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Hey John,
Ditto what Zina says, but also remember that you might come up with a nice jig or reel that works just fine, but not necessarily within the Irish trad scene. Your 'New School Year' jig for instance doesn't strike my ear as particularly Irish. More Canadian or something, so maybe it wouldn't go over well at a hardcore Irish session, but it might be welcomed in other forums.
The further you immerse yourself in one genre, I think the easier it is to compose tunes that will fit that form. Irish trad music is full of subtleties and nuances that most people miss until they've played for some years and internalized several hundreds of tunes, so be patient with yourself.
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Thanks. Just got back from our session this afternoon. It really IS about playing the music after all and we had a great time. I think the great thing about ITRAD is that there are so many tunes to learn
This list is great for developing an understanding of the tradition.
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by johnbunch
AND both Zina and Will, you both should know that your postings have really helped me to start to understand what Irish music is all about. I look forward to reading them whenever I log on.
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by johnbunch
Re: Hot or not - for tunes
Good point Zina, about not liking a tune until you've heard someone else play it well.
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by Andee