Hello fellow uilleann addicts! I have a question that may very well have been answered in another post so forgive me if this a repeat.
I have been playing the pipes for about 7 months with pretty good success (at least according to my instructor). Recently though, getting some notes out of the chanter has become difficult. I play a concert D set and normally the lower octave has been just fine. Now, the higher octave is much better than the lower and low D sounds REALLY weird and harder to achieve than as recently as a few weeks ago.
So...my question is: How do you know if you have a bad reed? I imagine that there may be many different symptoms but does the situation described above sound like a reed problem? I haven't changed my playing style or anything and while I am a beginner, the abrupt change in the ability to get out a good low D makes me think that it might just not be me. Though I'm open to the possability I've posed this question to my instructor via email who gave me a few things to try (adjusting the seating of the reed, etc). I will see him next week so he can try to diagnose the problem but, alas! I want to practice!
My guess is that the reed is loose in its seat. it does need to be firmly in to allow it to Vibrate freely.
did you try that?
You can still practice various techniques with chanter but no sound, the pop of the fingers as they land cleanly and crisply allows you to tap out rhythms .
If your reed is too closed it will do what you described. As the weather cools off, humidity drops and reeds close down. If you feel confidant, try opening the lips by slightly moving the bridle up. Attend a reed making workshop to learn about reed characteristics. If you attempt practicing finger movements without sound you may be practicing bad movements without knowing it. Don't do that as a beginner. The sound is your telltale for good technique. Even a good reed will sound bad if you have practiced bad technique.
Thanks, guys! I'll try raising the bridle a bit. This was also suggested by my instructor. I'm just a little wary about touching the reed. I'll be careful though. Wish me luck!
By slightly BP means like.... a hair thickness at a time! 1/2 mm is a large movement!
Apart from just seating the reed Id be wary of adjusting it. In fact even just seating it is a move I wouldnt recomend really. Get your whistle out and get help for the reed. Then watch what your helper does.
Hey no worries and yes good luck. Also, I should clarify my stance against wicked hackers advice to practice in silence. An experienced piper may be able to do it effectively. I have never found it to be of use in 9 + years of piping. I have found it to be a waste of my time. I need to hear whats happening in order to practice effectively. Learning to adjust my reed is far more important to my piping happiness than practicing silent piping.
Late at night, the baby asleep, Its a handy little thing to know. You can hear though , you hear the pop and crack of the percussive finger movement landing... if you do it well that is. Not only that though, each little figure has a rhythmic motif which becomes clearer when you train like this... In addition... to normal practice/play. Rhythmic fingerwork!
I agree, BP. As a beginner, I still sometimes miss holes and butcher crans. I've taken the chanter on vacations where I couldn't take the whole set only to come home, put the thing together, and realize that I'd learned the whole tune wrong. Especially when it comes to learning ornamentations, I gotta hear what I'm doing.
Incidently, the pipes sound better now than they have for a long time. Perhaps the progressively colder weather has been slowly torturing my reed. I thought for a while I was regressing in my playing or had solidified some bad habits but it looks like it wasn't me after all. That feels good.
Maybe in another five years I'll be able to get those pops that Hacker is talking about. Until then, I'll just play 'til the neighbors complain or call the police or something ;)
Thanks for all the wonderful advice. Having only played for 7 months now, I was totally scared of messing with the reed. Now I'm not so freightened but know to do anything VERY, VERY carefully. I guess that's all part of the learning process. It's quite possibly the most finicky instrument out there.
Ok, Im not talking about tunes, that I agree is not possible. But cranns, Staccato triplets etc etc These ornamental figures have precise rhythmic patterns which can become clearer with this sort of practice.
A notable Piper recomended not playing dance music for the first six months except very slowly!
He talked about practicing scales[D, G] turns[rolls], rolls[cranns] and triplets etc,at least for the First three months.
So glad to hear of the success Ivy. Hacker does have a good point with the rhythmic focus while practicing in silence. I never took that approach. I'm gonna re-visit it again. Rhythm is so important. When I was at the 7 month stage, if I had to be quiet, I worked on reeds. Things work differently for everyone. Silent practice is a tool that Hacker finds useful. But understanding my reed seems more useful to me.
Of course, the reed is the heart of the Instrument, My focus on technical rhythmic exercises is in addition to the basics.
. Reed manipulation is fundamental to your piping. BUT, experimenting on a working reed is not something I would suggest unless you are
A] equiped technically for the job.
B] you understand what you are doing.
C] you have a few spare reeds.
D] you are very patient and take setback well.
I "warm up the wood" playing crans and rolls and scales everyday before practicing tunes. I'll try doing it on the chanter alone and see how well it translates. I agree that one thing a beginner like me who has never played a wind instrument before needs to work hard on is finger dexterity
Those staccato triplets are totally beyond me at this point! Yikes! Conservatively, I'm thinking I might be able to pull them off at about the 5 year mark. I'm trying to not be too optimistic though my instructor (who's a reed-making master as well) says I'm rolling along superbly (probably because I'm totally addicted to playing). And now with a better sounding instrument, I'm feeling like musicality might be in the future and adding more ornamentation is my more immediate goal. In that respect, silent practicing will probably do me some good.
And yes, thank you guys so much for taking the time to give a beginner lots of useful, understandable advice!
I'm looking at Seth Gallagher's website on reedmaking. There's the rub, I think. How long does it take to master making reeds to some degree? Should you start learning as early as possible?
Practice playing closed fingering dead slowly and the staccato triplets will eventually sort themselves out. Once you can play the chanter closed no bother the triplets aren't that bad.
My own opinion is that Musicality comes befor ornamentation. But that does not preclude practicing those ornaments in isolation.. Stacatto triplets such as 'Bcd' are perfect for this type of silent practice, lift your B fingers and tap them down till they land cleanly with a pop, then the 1st finger pop, then Back D, getting a pop with the thumb is harder. An easier place to start would be AcA. just 2 finger tap, tip, tap, tip. precise triplet rhythm. Enjoy.
I'll definitely give it a shot. I've just started working on closed playing and findit easier to do in the context of a tune. Just a little here and there. I think it's coming along.
Reed making skills helped me considerably from the beginning. I'm hundreds of miles from the nearest piper. I had to learn them. Otherwise I wouldn't play pipes. Luckily, I'm an experienced woodworker. I'm familiar with sharp tools. If you've never worked much with sharp tools, it can be dangerous. A great piper/reedmaker once told me. If you are afraid of touching and potentially harming your reeds, then you will always play mediocre reeds. A good reed is a blessing.
Thanks for the explanation for silent practice Wick. I'll try it out.
I don't recommend practicing without sound (unless you're sitting in a class or a meeting, bored, and practicing ornaments on pens, glasses, whatever is available). It's not going to hurt, but it is not going to do much good. You need to know what you sound like -- that's how you know if it's right. It's bloody music, isn't it? I can't tell what I am doing all that well if I can't hear myself.
Ornamentation is part of musicality, but I think jig and I have beaten that horse to death so I'm not going to get into it here.
She may well be making fantastic progress but I think acquiring regs is more dependent on luck and finances (I know folk with full sets who can barely play a scale). I've been doing this nonsense for five years and don't see any chance of regs for the next two years at least. Or more.
I just finished practicing a bit. I worked some with Wicked Hackers idea for silent practice, rhythm being the focus. I found that feeling subtle movements of closure and the popping sound that Wick explained were very apparent. When I fired the reed up, my focus immediately became reed sound first. I then had to concentrate a bit harder to focus on the subtle things that were more apparent while silent. It created a logical progression that gave me clear focus on finger movement before firing the reed up. I think Wick is on to some thing here. Not quite sure where it will lead, but it seems to allow me to isolate subtle finger movement over the holes with very clear focus. Back when I was a beginner, I was not capable of knowing what I was feeling or looking for. So this silent practice tool seems a bit of a stretch for an inexperienced piper to gain anything from. I'm glad I tried it and will continue to use it.
Thats funny SS, for me I had a real; Ahha moment with silent practice.Though thats a misnomer because its not silent. Of course you will have tried it as you could hardly be condemning something you've never done could you now? So its funny how I benefited so much from something that didn't help you. Funny world eh...
My own piping steamed ahead as a direct result of this 'silent 'practice' and I find it a profitable way to pass time that otherwise couldnt be devoted to my piping..
Ive never tried it on pens etc, which of course is a very different thing to what I suggest.
As far as ornaments and musicality, Have you read Pat Skys words on this thread~? after 30 yrs piping he knows what he is talking about dont you think?
Yes Wick, we all take varying routes. Working on reeds really helped my piping steam ahead in the beginning. Silent (or shall we say almost silent) practice only frustrated me back then. But now re-visiting it is really interesting. By the way, it was Pat Sky who told me that if you are afraid to touch and potentially harm your reed, then you will always play mediocre reeds.
Of course I have. Either feeling out a tune in a session to see whether I know it, as you can't noodle around quietly on the pipes, or as I said, practicing on bottles, pens, whatever is at hand whilst sitting at a class or seminar. I think boatpiper makes a good point when saying it's probably more useful for an experienced player, who already has a pretty good sense of the noises they should be be making, than a beginner, who doesn't.
Anyway, I obviously read that thread on chiffandfipple and you were making a very different argument to the one Pat made. We've been around in circles on that one and there's no point in beating it out here.
Id rather a mediocre reed that works to a great one that doesnt!
Although Im only skirting out side reedmaking, Ive taken a few apart and even put them back together successfully at times! and Ive worked on a couple dozen, some lived, some died, sigh... Its all a journey of exploration, handy to have guides in whatever form they might be, but at the end of the day we all find our own way and those guides cant do it for us.
Regarding reeds? Well I go to our Pipers club and we talk reeds, pipes, and play tunes till the early hours. That sharing of our love for the pipes and piping , that sharing of our love respect and admiration for the music the wondering and experimenting with reeds, drone reeds , Bores, , bellows and bags. The whole Gamut of what it means to be a piper, to maintain, and play the instrument, Tying in bags, waxed Hemp and Blutack!
Its inspirational. Cant get enough. As the years go pass I get deeper and deeper involved with my love for the pipes of all persuasions, Damn it, Its like a confessional here! Im a fanatic! I admit it! Lord Help me what have I done with my life... Sigh
Wicked, I agree that personal experience is a terrific teacher. But could you perhaps take it on board that people here sometimes (such as Silverspear just did) use reasoning to think about ideas and advice--not everything *has* to be based on experience. Our ability to imagine and anticipate consequences is often a great advantage to learning in the school of hard knocks.
Not that there's likely any real harm in almost silent practice on the chanter, especially they way you've suggested, as a add-on to usual practice.
Sure he has, bogman. He even had a pic of himself wearing pipes online at one point.
And Mr. Evans has made some good contributions on this thread--worth acknowledging. Now if we could just get him to drop the unnecessary and faulty rhetoric ("don't condemn something you haven't yourself tried"), we'd be enjoying pints together.
FWIW, I don't know that it's wise to divide how we learn to play music into categories like "beginner" and "advanced." I see that all the time in fiddle students who have played for years but their teachers won't get them started on "advanced" tools like vibrato or shifting positions. There's really nothing "advanced" about them, and they can actually help beginners ease their grip on the neck, preventing years of bad habits. I'm willing to teach anyone anything at any stage in their learning if I think it will help them progress.
In short, while wicked's notion of almost silent practice on the chanter may not work for everyone, I can imagine some people--beginners and advanced players alike--getting some benefit from it, when used as a sideline to normal playing.
Of course use reasoning, but theory is trumped by practice every time . Some one who theorizes is just Imagining , Its fantasy. Someone with actual direct experience is not and its not . Of course we need theories , the brain Imagines projects, creates maps forecasts, next comes experiment and experience otherwise theories and projections remain fantasy.
However anyone stands to defend their theories and creations of their minds, their Imaginings , Its wise to remember they are not real, they are figments of the imagination in that whirlwind brain of ours which can make mountains out of molehills in the flash of an eye.
Its only by direct experience of the thing itself' that we can truly understand' and not an imagining of what the thing might be like. Condemning one experiment on the strength of an experiment that was 'something like it 'is hardly justifiable is it? or worse condemning something that works well and is used by many people successfully on the strength of your fantasy of what its consequences might be would be even foolisher now wouldnt it?
Yes, Miss L, he has contributed well here, and without the use of name-dropping and isolated quotations from the respected. Credit where credit's due.
All the same I wouldn't advise silent practice for pipes unless none were to hand, in which case it would be bonus practice, as you say. By actually playing you are practicing tuning, rhythm, lift, piping technique etc all at the same time. There is no piping practice as beneficial as playing the tunes.
I think there is some confusion here between "hypothesis" and "theory".
We hypothesize when we fish around for an explanation of some observed phenomenon, the "fishing" usually being based on imagination (perhaps well-informed) and a few facts. If the hypothesis has not been completely discarded at the outset as hopeless rubbish then it is tested by seeing if it accounts for other phenomena in the subject under discussion. This may mean some modification of the original hypothesis in order to explain these other phenomena. This is a normal part of the process. Eventually, the hypothesis gets to the stage where it has not only explained the currently known phenomena but is strengthened by explaining new ones as they come along. When it gets to the stage where it correctly predicts and explains hitherto unobserved phenomena then it becomes a fully-fledged Theory, and enters the text books. A Nobel Prize might then be in the offing
Theory;
>>a formal statement of the rules on which a subject of study is based or of ideas which are suggested to explain a fact or event or, more generally, an opinion or explanation.>><If something is possible in theory, it should be possible, but often it does not happen in that way>>
theorize; to develop a set of ideas about something..
hypothesis ;an idea or explanation for something that is based on known facts but has not yet been proved.
It is neither "just imagining" nor "fantasy" to theorise. Nor is a theory simply "an idea." Lazyhound gives a very good characterisation of hypothesis and theory as far as science sees it. But, entirely contrary to what wicked hacker claims ("No confusion, Lazy..."), he is utterly confused about which sense of the word "theory" we are using in this discussion. It has nothing to do with ideas. "Theory" in music refers to the body of general principles on which music is based. It is therefore quite ridiculous to claim that "theory is trumped by practice every time." The two are complementary and interdependent, and it ill-behoves anyone calling themselves a musician to be so dismissive of the one in favour of the other.
It's sad that an originally positive thread like this has degenerated into senseless dope smoking references and bickering over theory and hypothesis. Out.
Just the opposite Bog. Been here along time. Just thought I'd help Ivy. Sat in many sessions with members. Usually decline to post for reasons stated above. Not interested in drug themes or argumentative behavior. I just love piping and learning and helping others learn about piping.
Hey Boat, to continue our conversation, Have you Checked out the Crowley Tutor? There great material in there for this type of practice. Its very relaxing . Take an exercise, say CGG graces on a D triplet . just beat out the rhythm . Then up the scale,repeat each say 20 times+ with 3 different gracings each note, getting faster o gradually on each one till you feel its working + then to the next. Eventually you will be able to do each triplet back to back at pace. Isolating technical exercises, mastering them and then using them in my music is my approach, but Its a completely different thing to making music. Its not , its a technical exercise.
Ive been slated loads of times here for suggesting technical exercises , I have no interest in to debating their use, others might.
Well, Boatpiper, some of us have anti-bad advice software installed in the noggin that is activated when a whiff of same is detected. It might not be popular but I'd say it's better to have it than not on a site on which a lot of people are looking for good advice. That's the www for ya.
Haven't worked with the Crowley tutor. Mostly the Heather Clarke tutor, but got a bunch of good exercises like that at a workshop with one of the Greats. After putting them to use I'd listen to his CD. I could really hear how he translated the exercises into the music. He taught a fantastic workshop. He'd teach a tune, then exercises, then showed how to tie it all together.
That tutor is Amazing, no disrespect to the HC tutor, but its not in the same league. There's also the hard to get Patsy Touhey book which is out of this world. Brilliant ,Pat and Jackie did the most AMAZING job .
Crowleys is a great resource WH. why do you think HC is not in the same league?
and does anyone know the origins of Parnells March (in Crowleys) Its a tune that's regularly played in Northumbrian sessions in the NE England.
Does anyone play it in ITM sessions and if so what with
Ged
For me, the focus on doubling, triplings, graces gives me so much to work with. Its actually in fact not in the same league as the Patsy Touhey book which IMO is hands down the most comprehensive of them all.
Things like the 'traditional Scale' .In a way its a link between the modern UP and the Pastoral pipe and the GHB. between open and closed fingering. A simple little fingering chart I know, but so full of meaning.. I have most of the Tutors I think, though rightfully the PT and Willie Clancy book might not be described as tutors.
I mean the Rowsome tutor , contains as much as the HC tutor and its only 10 pages long!
I also am wary of the way she introduces Quadruplets in lesson 12!.
thats a good response TWH and I agree with you. HC does seem to move into fairly difficult material quite early on. I've not seen Touhey so I can't comment.
Maybe a thread in itself as we drift from 'Bad Reed'
Cheers
That the Touhey book is not in print is a real shame. Which hopefully will be rectified ASAP. It is an Immense and masterful work which is an incredible achievement when you listen to the recordings it is transcribed from. Astounding.
Bad reed?
Bad reed?
Hello fellow uilleann addicts! I have a question that may very well have been answered in another post so forgive me if this a repeat.
I've posed this question to my instructor via email who gave me a few things to try (adjusting the seating of the reed, etc). I will see him next week so he can try to diagnose the problem but, alas! I want to practice!
I have been playing the pipes for about 7 months with pretty good success (at least according to my instructor). Recently though, getting some notes out of the chanter has become difficult. I play a concert D set and normally the lower octave has been just fine. Now, the higher octave is much better than the lower and low D sounds REALLY weird and harder to achieve than as recently as a few weeks ago.
So...my question is: How do you know if you have a bad reed? I imagine that there may be many different symptoms but does the situation described above sound like a reed problem? I haven't changed my playing style or anything and while I am a beginner, the abrupt change in the ability to get out a good low D makes me think that it might just not be me. Though I'm open to the possability
Thanks in advance!
Ivy
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
My guess is that the reed is loose in its seat. it does need to be firmly in to allow it to Vibrate freely.
did you try that?
You can still practice various techniques with chanter but no sound, the pop of the fingers as they land cleanly and crisply allows you to tap out rhythms .
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
If your reed is too closed it will do what you described. As the weather cools off, humidity drops and reeds close down. If you feel confidant, try opening the lips by slightly moving the bridle up. Attend a reed making workshop to learn about reed characteristics. If you attempt practicing finger movements without sound you may be practicing bad movements without knowing it. Don't do that as a beginner. The sound is your telltale for good technique. Even a good reed will sound bad if you have practiced bad technique.
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
Thanks, guys! I'll try raising the bridle a bit. This was also suggested by my instructor. I'm just a little wary about touching the reed. I'll be careful though. Wish me luck!
Yeah, I'd love to go to a reed camp sometime soon
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
By slightly BP means like.... a hair thickness at a time! 1/2 mm is a large movement!
Apart from just seating the reed Id be wary of adjusting it. In fact even just seating it is a move I wouldnt recomend really. Get your whistle out and get help for the reed. Then watch what your helper does.
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
You tried just making sure it was firmly seated? befor adjusting the bridle?
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
Ok. You guys rule!
I moved the bridle up just a tiny bit and now it plays a perfectly pitched bottom D.
You've made this beginner piper girl really happy
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
Well it was BP who gave you the winning answer, credit where credit is due!
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
Then thanks to BP, my pipe savior! Now for some rocking reels!!
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
Hey no worries and yes good luck. Also, I should clarify my stance against wicked hackers advice to practice in silence. An experienced piper may be able to do it effectively. I have never found it to be of use in 9 + years of piping. I have found it to be a waste of my time. I need to hear whats happening in order to practice effectively. Learning to adjust my reed is far more important to my piping happiness than practicing silent piping.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
Late at night, the baby asleep, Its a handy little thing to know. You can hear though , you hear the pop and crack of the percussive finger movement landing... if you do it well that is. Not only that though, each little figure has a rhythmic motif which becomes clearer when you train like this... In addition... to normal practice/play. Rhythmic fingerwork!
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
I agree, BP. As a beginner, I still sometimes miss holes and butcher crans. I've taken the chanter on vacations where I couldn't take the whole set only to come home, put the thing together, and realize that I'd learned the whole tune wrong. Especially when it comes to learning ornamentations, I gotta hear what I'm doing.
Incidently, the pipes sound better now than they have for a long time. Perhaps the progressively colder weather has been slowly torturing my reed. I thought for a while I was regressing in my playing or had solidified some bad habits but it looks like it wasn't me after all. That feels good.
Maybe in another five years I'll be able to get those pops that Hacker is talking about. Until then, I'll just play 'til the neighbors complain or call the police or something ;)
Thanks for all the wonderful advice. Having only played for 7 months now, I was totally scared of messing with the reed. Now I'm not so freightened but know to do anything VERY, VERY carefully. I guess that's all part of the learning process. It's quite possibly the most finicky instrument out there.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
Ok, Im not talking about tunes, that I agree is not possible. But cranns, Staccato triplets etc etc These ornamental figures have precise rhythmic patterns which can become clearer with this sort of practice.
A notable Piper recomended not playing dance music for the first six months except very slowly!
He talked about practicing scales[D, G] turns[rolls], rolls[cranns] and triplets etc,at least for the First three months.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
So glad to hear of the success Ivy. Hacker does have a good point with the rhythmic focus while practicing in silence. I never took that approach. I'm gonna re-visit it again. Rhythm is so important. When I was at the 7 month stage, if I had to be quiet, I worked on reeds. Things work differently for everyone. Silent practice is a tool that Hacker finds useful. But understanding my reed seems more useful to me.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
Of course, the reed is the heart of the Instrument, My focus on technical rhythmic exercises is in addition to the basics.
. Reed manipulation is fundamental to your piping. BUT, experimenting on a working reed is not something I would suggest unless you are
A] equiped technically for the job.
B] you understand what you are doing.
C] you have a few spare reeds.
D] you are very patient and take setback well.
Im glad it worked out for you.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
So true Wick. Ivy seems to have a safe approach. You WILL break reeds when learning to work on them. Her little adjustment was approached well.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
Good on you both for helping Ivy sort this. About time we had some constructive posts around here worth celebrating.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Bad reed?
I "warm up the wood" playing crans and rolls and scales everyday before practicing tunes. I'll try doing it on the chanter alone and see how well it translates. I agree that one thing a beginner like me who has never played a wind instrument before needs to work hard on is finger dexterity
Those staccato triplets are totally beyond me at this point! Yikes! Conservatively, I'm thinking I might be able to pull them off at about the 5 year mark. I'm trying to not be too optimistic though my instructor (who's a reed-making master as well) says I'm rolling along superbly (probably because I'm totally addicted to playing). And now with a better sounding instrument, I'm feeling like musicality might be in the future and adding more ornamentation is my more immediate goal. In that respect, silent practicing will probably do me some good.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
And yes, thank you guys so much for taking the time to give a beginner lots of useful, understandable advice!
I'm looking at Seth Gallagher's website on reedmaking. There's the rub, I think. How long does it take to master making reeds to some degree? Should you start learning as early as possible?
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
Practice playing closed fingering dead slowly and the staccato triplets will eventually sort themselves out. Once you can play the chanter closed no bother the triplets aren't that bad.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bad reed?
My own opinion is that Musicality comes befor ornamentation. But that does not preclude practicing those ornaments in isolation.. Stacatto triplets such as 'Bcd' are perfect for this type of silent practice, lift your B fingers and tap them down till they land cleanly with a pop, then the 1st finger pop, then Back D, getting a pop with the thumb is harder. An easier place to start would be AcA. just 2 finger tap, tip, tap, tip. precise triplet rhythm. Enjoy.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
I'll definitely give it a shot. I've just started working on closed playing and findit easier to do in the context of a tune. Just a little here and there. I think it's coming along.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
How long is a piece of string Ivy?
at a conservative estimate Id say a lifetime... But it depends on you, and your teacher/s.....
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
Haha! I think I'm a lifer. I get the rest of my D set in June so then there's drones and regs to work on. So much fun though so it's easy to stick to!
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Ivy
Re: Bad reed?
Reed making skills helped me considerably from the beginning. I'm hundreds of miles from the nearest piper. I had to learn them. Otherwise I wouldn't play pipes. Luckily, I'm an experienced woodworker. I'm familiar with sharp tools. If you've never worked much with sharp tools, it can be dangerous. A great piper/reedmaker once told me. If you are afraid of touching and potentially harming your reeds, then you will always play mediocre reeds. A good reed is a blessing.
Thanks for the explanation for silent practice Wick. I'll try it out.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
I don't recommend practicing without sound (unless you're sitting in a class or a meeting, bored, and practicing ornaments on pens, glasses, whatever is available). It's not going to hurt, but it is not going to do much good. You need to know what you sound like -- that's how you know if it's right. It's bloody music, isn't it? I can't tell what I am doing all that well if I can't hear myself.
Ornamentation is part of musicality, but I think jig and I have beaten that horse to death so I'm not going to get into it here.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bad reed?
If you are getting regulators after 14 months or so you must be making fantastic progress - well done Ivy (wherever you are)
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by gedpipes
Re: Bad reed?
She may well be making fantastic progress but I think acquiring regs is more dependent on luck and finances (I know folk with full sets who can barely play a scale). I've been doing this nonsense for five years and don't see any chance of regs for the next two years at least. Or more.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bad reed?
I just finished practicing a bit. I worked some with Wicked Hackers idea for silent practice, rhythm being the focus. I found that feeling subtle movements of closure and the popping sound that Wick explained were very apparent. When I fired the reed up, my focus immediately became reed sound first. I then had to concentrate a bit harder to focus on the subtle things that were more apparent while silent. It created a logical progression that gave me clear focus on finger movement before firing the reed up. I think Wick is on to some thing here. Not quite sure where it will lead, but it seems to allow me to isolate subtle finger movement over the holes with very clear focus. Back when I was a beginner, I was not capable of knowing what I was feeling or looking for. So this silent practice tool seems a bit of a stretch for an inexperienced piper to gain anything from. I'm glad I tried it and will continue to use it.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
Thats funny SS, for me I had a real; Ahha moment with silent practice.Though thats a misnomer because its not silent. Of course you will have tried it as you could hardly be condemning something you've never done could you now? So its funny how I benefited so much from something that didn't help you. Funny world eh...
My own piping steamed ahead as a direct result of this 'silent 'practice' and I find it a profitable way to pass time that otherwise couldnt be devoted to my piping..
Ive never tried it on pens etc, which of course is a very different thing to what I suggest.
As far as ornaments and musicality, Have you read Pat Skys words on this thread~? after 30 yrs piping he knows what he is talking about dont you think?
http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71595&start=0
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
Yes Wick, we all take varying routes. Working on reeds really helped my piping steam ahead in the beginning. Silent (or shall we say almost silent) practice only frustrated me back then. But now re-visiting it is really interesting. By the way, it was Pat Sky who told me that if you are afraid to touch and potentially harm your reed, then you will always play mediocre reeds.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
Of course I have. Either feeling out a tune in a session to see whether I know it, as you can't noodle around quietly on the pipes, or as I said, practicing on bottles, pens, whatever is at hand whilst sitting at a class or seminar. I think boatpiper makes a good point when saying it's probably more useful for an experienced player, who already has a pretty good sense of the noises they should be be making, than a beginner, who doesn't.
Anyway, I obviously read that thread on chiffandfipple and you were making a very different argument to the one Pat made. We've been around in circles on that one and there's no point in beating it out here.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bad reed?
Id rather a mediocre reed that works to a great one that doesnt!
Although Im only skirting out side reedmaking, Ive taken a few apart and even put them back together successfully at times! and Ive worked on a couple dozen, some lived, some died, sigh... Its all a journey of exploration, handy to have guides in whatever form they might be, but at the end of the day we all find our own way and those guides cant do it for us.
Regarding reeds? Well I go to our Pipers club and we talk reeds, pipes, and play tunes till the early hours. That sharing of our love for the pipes and piping , that sharing of our love respect and admiration for the music the wondering and experimenting with reeds, drone reeds , Bores, , bellows and bags. The whole Gamut of what it means to be a piper, to maintain, and play the instrument, Tying in bags, waxed Hemp and Blutack!
Its inspirational. Cant get enough. As the years go pass I get deeper and deeper involved with my love for the pipes of all persuasions, Damn it, Its like a confessional here! Im a fanatic! I admit it! Lord Help me what have I done with my life... Sigh
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
You're full of surprises jig, you never mentioned you played Uilleann pipes as well.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bad reed?
Wicked, I agree that personal experience is a terrific teacher. But could you perhaps take it on board that people here sometimes (such as Silverspear just did) use reasoning to think about ideas and advice--not everything *has* to be based on experience. Our ability to imagine and anticipate consequences is often a great advantage to learning in the school of hard knocks.
Not that there's likely any real harm in almost silent practice on the chanter, especially they way you've suggested, as a add-on to usual practice.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Bad reed?
Sure he has, bogman. He even had a pic of himself wearing pipes online at one point.
And Mr. Evans has made some good contributions on this thread--worth acknowledging. Now if we could just get him to drop the unnecessary and faulty rhetoric ("don't condemn something you haven't yourself tried"), we'd be enjoying pints together.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Bad reed?
FWIW, I don't know that it's wise to divide how we learn to play music into categories like "beginner" and "advanced." I see that all the time in fiddle students who have played for years but their teachers won't get them started on "advanced" tools like vibrato or shifting positions. There's really nothing "advanced" about them, and they can actually help beginners ease their grip on the neck, preventing years of bad habits. I'm willing to teach anyone anything at any stage in their learning if I think it will help them progress.
In short, while wicked's notion of almost silent practice on the chanter may not work for everyone, I can imagine some people--beginners and advanced players alike--getting some benefit from it, when used as a sideline to normal playing.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Bad reed?
Of course use reasoning, but theory is trumped by practice every time . Some one who theorizes is just Imagining , Its fantasy. Someone with actual direct experience is not and its not . Of course we need theories , the brain Imagines projects, creates maps forecasts, next comes experiment and experience otherwise theories and projections remain fantasy.
However anyone stands to defend their theories and creations of their minds, their Imaginings , Its wise to remember they are not real, they are figments of the imagination in that whirlwind brain of ours which can make mountains out of molehills in the flash of an eye.
Its only by direct experience of the thing itself' that we can truly understand' and not an imagining of what the thing might be like. Condemning one experiment on the strength of an experiment that was 'something like it 'is hardly justifiable is it? or worse condemning something that works well and is used by many people successfully on the strength of your fantasy of what its consequences might be would be even foolisher now wouldnt it?
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
Dude, I think I need some of whatever you're smoking.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bad reed?
Yes, Miss L, he has contributed well here, and without the use of name-dropping and isolated quotations from the respected. Credit where credit's due.
All the same I wouldn't advise silent practice for pipes unless none were to hand, in which case it would be bonus practice, as you say. By actually playing you are practicing tuning, rhythm, lift, piping technique etc all at the same time. There is no piping practice as beneficial as playing the tunes.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bad reed?
Ah, now having read that last hack it is obviously past smoke o' clock.
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bad reed?
I think there is some confusion here between "hypothesis" and "theory".
We hypothesize when we fish around for an explanation of some observed phenomenon, the "fishing" usually being based on imagination (perhaps well-informed) and a few facts. If the hypothesis has not been completely discarded at the outset as hopeless rubbish then it is tested by seeing if it accounts for other phenomena in the subject under discussion. This may mean some modification of the original hypothesis in order to explain these other phenomena. This is a normal part of the process. Eventually, the hypothesis gets to the stage where it has not only explained the currently known phenomena but is strengthened by explaining new ones as they come along. When it gets to the stage where it correctly predicts and explains hitherto unobserved phenomena then it becomes a fully-fledged Theory, and enters the text books. A Nobel Prize might then be in the offing
# Posted on December 14th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bad reed?
Theory;
>>a formal statement of the rules on which a subject of study is based or of ideas which are suggested to explain a fact or event or, more generally, an opinion or explanation.>><If something is possible in theory, it should be possible, but often it does not happen in that way>>
theorize; to develop a set of ideas about something..
hypothesis ;an idea or explanation for something that is based on known facts but has not yet been proved.
From Cambridge dictionary.org
No confusion Lazy... A theory is an Idea.
# Posted on December 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
3:20 PM California time. Still 1 hr. to go ~
then it's 4:20
# Posted on December 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Bad reed?
don't let that stop you...
# Posted on December 15th 2009 by leoj
Re: Bad reed?
Teehee, Ben.
# Posted on December 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bad reed?
It is neither "just imagining" nor "fantasy" to theorise. Nor is a theory simply "an idea." Lazyhound gives a very good characterisation of hypothesis and theory as far as science sees it. But, entirely contrary to what wicked hacker claims ("No confusion, Lazy..."), he is utterly confused about which sense of the word "theory" we are using in this discussion. It has nothing to do with ideas. "Theory" in music refers to the body of general principles on which music is based. It is therefore quite ridiculous to claim that "theory is trumped by practice every time." The two are complementary and interdependent, and it ill-behoves anyone calling themselves a musician to be so dismissive of the one in favour of the other.
# Posted on December 15th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bad reed?
It's sad that an originally positive thread like this has degenerated into senseless dope smoking references and bickering over theory and hypothesis. Out.
# Posted on December 15th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
Not been about here long then?
# Posted on December 15th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bad reed?
Just the opposite Bog. Been here along time. Just thought I'd help Ivy. Sat in many sessions with members. Usually decline to post for reasons stated above. Not interested in drug themes or argumentative behavior. I just love piping and learning and helping others learn about piping.
# Posted on December 15th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
Hey Boat, to continue our conversation, Have you Checked out the Crowley Tutor? There great material in there for this type of practice. Its very relaxing . Take an exercise, say CGG graces on a D triplet . just beat out the rhythm . Then up the scale,repeat each say 20 times+ with 3 different gracings each note, getting faster o gradually on each one till you feel its working + then to the next. Eventually you will be able to do each triplet back to back at pace. Isolating technical exercises, mastering them and then using them in my music is my approach, but Its a completely different thing to making music. Its not , its a technical exercise.
Ive been slated loads of times here for suggesting technical exercises , I have no interest in to debating their use, others might.
# Posted on December 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
Well, Boatpiper, some of us have anti-bad advice software installed in the noggin that is activated when a whiff of same is detected. It might not be popular but I'd say it's better to have it than not on a site on which a lot of people are looking for good advice. That's the www for ya.
# Posted on December 16th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Bad reed?
Haven't worked with the Crowley tutor. Mostly the Heather Clarke tutor, but got a bunch of good exercises like that at a workshop with one of the Greats. After putting them to use I'd listen to his CD. I could really hear how he translated the exercises into the music. He taught a fantastic workshop. He'd teach a tune, then exercises, then showed how to tie it all together.
# Posted on December 16th 2009 by Gone to work
Re: Bad reed?
That tutor is Amazing, no disrespect to the HC tutor, but its not in the same league. There's also the hard to get Patsy Touhey book which is out of this world. Brilliant ,Pat and Jackie did the most AMAZING job .
For me they are hands down the best of the bunch. Whats even better is that Crowleys is free!
.http://www.uilleannobsession.com/docs/Crowley_Tutor.pdf
Enjoy.
# Posted on December 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
Crowleys is a great resource WH. why do you think HC is not in the same league?
and does anyone know the origins of Parnells March (in Crowleys) Its a tune that's regularly played in Northumbrian sessions in the NE England.
Does anyone play it in ITM sessions and if so what with
Ged
# Posted on December 16th 2009 by gedpipes
Re: Bad reed?
For me, the focus on doubling, triplings, graces gives me so much to work with. Its actually in fact not in the same league as the Patsy Touhey book which IMO is hands down the most comprehensive of them all.
Things like the 'traditional Scale' .In a way its a link between the modern UP and the Pastoral pipe and the GHB. between open and closed fingering. A simple little fingering chart I know, but so full of meaning.. I have most of the Tutors I think, though rightfully the PT and Willie Clancy book might not be described as tutors.
I mean the Rowsome tutor , contains as much as the HC tutor and its only 10 pages long!
I also am wary of the way she introduces Quadruplets in lesson 12!.
Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
# Posted on December 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bad reed?
thats a good response TWH and I agree with you. HC does seem to move into fairly difficult material quite early on. I've not seen Touhey so I can't comment.
Maybe a thread in itself as we drift from 'Bad Reed'
Cheers
# Posted on December 16th 2009 by gedpipes
Re: Bad reed?
That the Touhey book is not in print is a real shame. Which hopefully will be rectified ASAP. It is an Immense and masterful work which is an incredible achievement when you listen to the recordings it is transcribed from. Astounding.
# Posted on December 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil