I've gone through the archives and come up with nothing that completely answers my question, so hopefully this question has some original merit to it.
I've only been around this site for a year or so, but it seems that there is an increasing number of original tunes popping up. This is great, and new tunes help keep the tradition going. What I was wondering is why people out there compose tunes? I've read about some of the old-timers in Ireland (guys back before the CD, cassette, and even records) composed tunes simply because they had learned all the tunes from their local town, and needed something new to play. Nowadays, this likely would not be the case. With the number of recordings available, there will never be a shortage of tunes to learn.
I almost get the sense that some people set out to compose tunes because they think that they need to make an impact on the tradition. Is this in any way forcing the tradition? Does anybody know (or read bios about, seen quotes, etc. that you could link me to) if some of the more modern composers actually set out to make their mark with tunes (i.e. write and record, so the tune is automatically out in society) that have now seeped into the tradition, or have they simply let the natural selection process occur?
I know this is kinda a mish-mash of questions, but hopefully it makes some sense, and my overuse of parentheses hasn't confused people.
This doesn't answer your question about the tradition, but here's something to think about:
I'm not a composer, but occasionally I hear incredible music in my dreams, and I always wish I could capture it. Sometimes it's so elaborately arranged or orchestrated that it's way beyond my ability to write down, even if I were awake, and at best I'm lucky if I remember a fragment of melody when I wake up. A couple of weeks ago, though, I dreamed about music performed by a Renaissance ensemble, sung by a chorus of women. I remembered a bit of melody upon awaking, and I thought, "If I put a shuffle bow to that, it might be a fiddle tune." That didn't work, but when I started playing the tune slowly and adding a bit of ornamentation, it was like I had opened a door and let the tune out. So I called it "Renaissance Woman." It can't decide whether to be a lament or a pipe march or both, but what the heck. It feels amazing to "compose" a piece of music and bring it to life in the world, even if so far my entire audience consists of two cats (and maybe my nearest neighbor, considering that the wind's been from the south).
So I'd like to suggest that perhaps one reason that people write tunes is the same reason that Sir Edmund Hillary climbed Mount Everest: "Because it is there."
Just my two cents: most people I know who write tunes say that they're not writing them, they just pick them up out of that reservoir of music that Kevin Burke talks about. Some *do* write tunes, of course. And I'm sure there's those who want to leave some marks on the world that they were here once upon a time. I suppose that really the reasons for writing original tunes is going to be as varied as the people in the tradition. I don't' really see that it's forcing the tradition.
Besides which, if people don't like the tune, it doesn't end up getting played out. ;)
Excelent pionts sir. There are way too many tunes kicking about and people do write tunes that are either no better than the ones that we have already, or are so different as to be not concidered within the tradition.
The only reason people write tunes is for their egos and, quite frankly, their egos are just not up to it.
There is a linked problem here of making CDs. When making a CD, there is the quandry of whether to put original tunes on it. They say "whats the point of making a CD with tunes that everybody already know on it?". But the tunes that we all know are the best tunes. So my answer is "Whats the point of making a CD?
In the words of the wise Kieran O'Hare, "I like to write tunes to commemorate disasters."
Seriously though, I don't think composing tunes is a way to force the tradition. I've rarely heard of a composer - in traditional music, anyway - who have set out to make their 'mark' on the trad world by composing tunes. In a way, playing your own composition at a session is a bit of a no-no, unless your Liz Carroll or unless you want to be perceived as pompous.
I compose tunes on a sporadic basis. I'll go through a period of a few weeks where I write tunes all the time, and then I'll hit a dry spell that can last upwards of a year. I don't go out 'looking' for tunes, the melodies just sort of happen. I've written bits of tunes on the beach, on the subway, in bed, at sessions, etc.
I write to commemorate stories, disasters and accomplishments. I write tunes to fit in with song melodies. I write tunes for harmony projects at school. I write them as gifts for people (wrote "Johnny and Box Boy's" about a year ago), and for my own personal enjoyment. When the time is right, I might play them for a friend to get some feedback, and eventually I might perform them in public at one of my own gigs. Maybe one day I'll record them, but I'd never play them at a session.
I think most people set about composing tunes for the same reasons:
1. Why not?
2. It makes me happy.
When it comes down to it, playing and creating music is less about this or that tradition and much more about enjoying this innate urge people have to be musical. Coming up with new tunes is a natural extension of noodling around on your fiddle or flute or whatever. New melodies suggest themselves. And the tunes that come out reflect the type of music you play--I mostly play Irish trad music, so those motifs are the building blocks of how I think musically (though I've also composed bluegrass and rock tunes, when I'm in those frames of mind).
Maybe some people are more deliberate about shaping the tradition, but that seems less likely the driving reason than a simple, organic urge to create.
Tunes aren't just about the dots/notes...tunes are about what THEY'RE about...what you were thinking about when you composed them, the images that you're trying to describe musically.
Composing tunes, like recording a CD, is about sharing your musical emotions and feelings with the rest of the world. Why do you compose?
Liken it to conversation. Suppose last night you had a conversation and you wanted to say something really important, but you couldn't because your vocabulary didn't allow you to.
So you go and learn, compose. Not because you want to become a better player or make your 'mark' on the world of traditional music, but because you want to express yourself even more.
"Too many tunes kicking about..." Gee, I didn't think we could ever have too much music.
Michael, in his inimitable way, has once again stereotyped the lot of us (tune writers at least) at the level of the 0.00001 percent of people who play music for selfish reasons. For me ego has nothing to do with it. Coming up with a tune is more about getting your ego out of the way so the music can come through.
I think Will has just "nutshelled" this one from my point of view.
I believe that traditional music in what ever form has always been an opportunity for an individual to express themselves through their music or songs and that this form of self expression is learnt and passed on through generations.
People like to create in whatever art form they are capable of using and the "tradition" is no exception
There's a point being missed here: a perfectly formed contradiction. If you write a tune in the trad idium, you're not contributing anything, just adding to the morras. If you write it out of the trad idium, then that's not what this discussion is about.
All you people with you're "inate urges", fulfiling your "own personal enjoyments" with the "music in your dreams" are doing is muddying the once clear waters.
Thank God for Josephine Keegan, for Ed Reavey, for Josie McDermott, Martin Wynne, for Andy McGann and their kindred, inspired brothers and sisters in arms.
Just think ... if the "clear waters" hadn't been "muddied" by tunes like "The Curlews", "Cap And Bell", "The Hunter's House", "Maudabawn Chapel", "The Trip To Birmingham", etc. would we have been the richer or the poorer?
I think Scrooge has made an appearance a wee bit early this year!
I'm echoing what Aidan said...what about Paddy O'Brien, Liz Carroll, John McCusker, Paddy Fahy, Vincent Broderick...
Surely they all composed for the same reasons. How have all of these fine musicians and composers 'muddied the waters?' Someone somewhere, at some point in history MUST have composed the Silver Spear, the Sally Gardens and the Maid Behind the Bar. They did not appear out of thin air.
Every time you play a tune you re-write it, if you don't you might as well be a machine.
Remember that 99% of the tunes we play are dance tunes; that’s the idiom, and people have been writing new dance tunes since the year dot, the idea that we should stop now because some of the less imaginative players find it challenging is nonsense.
I have no interest in playing in some ones musical antique shop.
Michael's rant reminds me of a cartoon I saw once where a teenager opens his Christmas present while his parents look on, and he says "Oh. A book. But I've already got one."
Admittedly many people try to write tunes without a serious grounding in the phrasing and structure of traditional music. However, that's not to say that they shouldn't keep composing.
While we may not all be Paddy Faheys, someone may still come up with a tune that's worth learning. The great tunes will eventually be passed around, played and become part of the tradition; you don't bother learning a tune you don't like unless you either can't help it through hearing it so often or you're a wannabe.
If everyone had the attitude that there shouldn't be any more tunes written, the tradition would stagnate. It's my personal opinion that people who worry about the number of tunes being too great feel that they will have somehow mastered the music when they can play all 8,000 (or whatever number) of them.
Irish tunes aren't something you collect like box sets of Star Trek videos, and there's no sense in trying to stop people from being creative. Can you imagine Van Gogh packing in the painting because there were already too many to look at in the world? And people thought he was an eejit in his time.
Good grief. If musicians in the past had followed Michael's advice we would all be playing the one tune.
Perhaps Michael is one of those americans that asked us a question at one of our sessions. Why do you guys play the same tune all night?!!!****
Lets also consider the corrolloary of this question. Why bother learning any new tunes? Sure if Michael has learnt one tune he has obviously grasped the entire idiom and need play no more?
Enough of the guff Mick.
Tunes are what make the world go around and fair play to all the boys and girls out there composing, making up, or whatever. They make life that much more interesting.
Zina, whatever he does, it works. I'm biting the end of my workbench and growling like a Dobermann just thinking about it.
I like to think of Michael working in that office featured in the Monty Python sketch where the guy walks in and says "Hello. I've come for an argument".
Breandan, bit of a blunder there mate, apart from the obvious good point! Michael's Scottish (ach well he lives in Edinburgh so we can't be too sure), and it's the American contingent who are ganging up on him.
By the way, I heard you still hadn't learnt that tune we keep playing.
You're no Yank, Conán! Unless you've been doing an amazing job of having us on all this time. *grin* Can I come watch you eat your workbench? How do you deal with splinters twixt the teeth? Heh. I'd forgotten about the Monty Python sketch.
I feel that there is some justification for the "forcing the tradition" argument. How many of the new groups producing CDs feel obliged to throw in a few new compositions which so often are a hotch potch of existing standards - I can't be the only one whose listened to 2 bars of Jerry's Beaver Hat and then find the jig goes somewhere else entirely or has to endure a reel with nothing but chord type phrases. Somebody already mentioned the concept of music being out there to be tapped into and I firmly believe in this. Great composers like Tommy Peoples, Paddy O'Brien, Vincent Broderick, Paddy Fahy have the ability to do this and long may they continue to do so. The magic in their music speaks for itself. However, someone who sits down to manufacture "x" number of tunes in a given period would be much better employed learning some of the great tunes already out there and only committing pen to paper when suitably inspired. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I've had it on my chest for a long time and this thread gave me the opportunity to express it!
Hey Jason,
I wrote a dance tune once, but it really wasn't very good, and I soon stopped playing it and forgot it altogether. I also wrote a lament. That one I kinda like. But I would never post either of those tunes I wrote here. I wrote them just for me or to play for a few friends, not to play at a session and never ever to make my mark on the tradition. That's propably the case for many others including our friends here like Will and Cara and Carol and others. I do bet there are also a good amount of ego-driven people (Ha! who isn't?) folks out there who *are* looking to make their mark on the tradition (I guess that's what you mean by forcing the tradition). But like Zina said, if there tunes arent' any good no one will play them and they won't become part of the tradition anyway.
Hey--I didn't mean to imply in my last post that anybody who *did* post original tunes here was completely ego-driven. Who am I to say who the next Vincent Broderick will be? I just know it's definitely not me!
I have a good friend who wrote a tune to honor my reaching the summit on a difficult climb in S. America. He'd seen me training for many months and learned of the success via email. Upon my return he played it at our session. I don't believe ego played a role in motivation, rather he used one gift to create another gift. It was a lovely gesture that humbled the both of us.
Perhaps by morass, Mr. Gill means us to infer a remarkably rich, fertile, well-watered field of music.... About the only benefit to his negativity is that it sparks people to post who we don't hear from often enough. It's great to see creativity and the music supported and encouraged.
I agree with Bannerman that there are plenty of uninspired new tunes. But the way this traditional form works is that 99.9 percent of those tunes eventually fall by the wayside. And I'd wager that Peoples, O'Brien, Broderick, and Fahy have pieced together a few clunkers in their day that aren't played much if at all anywhere. But we remember the good ones and keep playing them, and collectively tweaking them. For every Inion Ni Scannlain (by Donnogh Hennessy) or Sweeney's Buttermilk (Bredan McGlinchey), there are no doubt dozens or hundreds of tunes that somehow don't make the grade. So what. Don't play the ones you don't like, but play the hell out of the ones you do.
I think it's interesting that people think it's a "no-no" to play your
own tunes at a session. Personally, I love to have people play their
own tunes at a session, in the same way that it's great when people
introduce tunes that they've found elsewhere. Saying "there are too
many tunes already" misses the point: there are an effectively
unlimited number of tunes out there. A rough count in my abc
directory gives over 18000 tunes; not to mention feet of shelf space
taken up with old tune collections. And still many of my favourite
tunes aren't there, 'cos they've been composed recently. Surely
what's important is the set of tunes you and your compatriots play
together, your *local* tradition? Loss of regional diversity is
something that people always seem to be lamenting, but isn't embracing
tunes written by local people a small divergence from the larger
tradition, and one that should be celebrated?!
Go to a session far away, and it's not uncommon to find that their
"standards" don't include any of the tunes you're used to, and, if
you're lucky, some are *only* played in that session. If they're
good, perhaps they'll circulate. It wasn't so long ago I heard a tune
being played in a bar near my folks' place on Skye; I got the name off
the player (who'd written it) and introduced it to a session down here
in York, where it quickly became a standard. It spead elsewhere too:
I bet a few of you reading this know the Tongadale Reel. Good tunes
live, indifferent tunes die. Every new tune is a potential delight.
Everyone should write new tunes!
oh yeah: i think michael's post was probably trying be a "recuctio ad absurdum" type argument. i don't believe he really meant that no-one should produce any more recorded music, now, did you michael?!
More like kick a man when he's down - but on this occasion that's where you deserve to stay, Michael. I was rather shocked to read your assertion that there are too many tunes around, and felt I had to respond, like the many other correspondents here. I've never heard such a poorly thought out argument wrt the music, and it says more about you than it does about the living tradition that we are engaged in. Also you have no right to say such things unless you've tried some composition yourself - even if you did immediately destroy the fruit of your labours on the basis of your stagnant Stalinist ideology. What you said belittles the efforts of some of the members of this site who are active composers, who no doubt laughed your comments off, as I did, knowing you were trying to stir up the sh!t at the bottom...but maybe not everyone knows how to take your wind ups.
As a biologist, I like to parallel our living musical tradition to that of living systems, where there is huge variety fulfilling many niches, and is constantly being reformed, remodelled and replenished. It may not be as 'good' (or it might be better) as 100 years ago, but at least it's not the same! It's going somewhere but who knows where.
If you can't keep up with it (not saying I can - I just keep to my niche - learn some new ones, forget some old ones), I wouldn't be so vocal about admitting it - albeit thinly disguised as there being too many tunes.
Ok, I shouldn't be pounding Michael so much - if anyone here can't understand that people *will* be compelled to compose new tunes, in the same way as we are compelled to play existing tunes, then it it's like the old retort:
If you need to ask, you won't understand the answer anyway.
Well, more to the point of C'man's original question, one example springs to my mind. Ciaran Tourish once came up with a tune while Altan was putting a cd to bed, and they added that tune to a set. He called it the Windmill, after the name of the studio, and it's a brilliant reel.
But I wouldn't rush to think Tourish or Altan was trying to force the tune on the tradition just because they included it--a brand spanking new reel--on the cd. More likely, they knew a great tune as soon as they heard it, and being somewhat competent musicians, right, they promptly learned it and recorded it, as much out of their own enjoyment of the tune as anything.
In fact, it probably hasn't made much of a dent in the tradition, and I doubt Ciaran's lost any sleep over that. He's likely too busy playing the music.
My guess is that the more common experience of composers of "new trad" tunes runs along the lines of Hammy Hamilton, who says he's always a bit astonished and blushing when he hears one of his tunes (such as the Kerfunten or the Woodcock) played out at a session.
Also, just because a tune lands on a cd doesn't necessarily mean that it's somehow bypassed the "natural selection" process of the tradition. People may still ignore it, and it may never rise into the ranks of tunes commonly played at sessions.
Re: Leaving Lerwick Harbour - composition or crib?
And by the same token, the idea that we should stop composing now because some of the less imaginative composers, is also silly. We have to put up with some crap to hear the exceptional.
I regard putting sets together as a form of arrangement or composition, and when people comment what a good set that is, you know you have done it correctly.
I also put my own "stamp" on tunes, sometimes adding extra parts - are these variations or compositions?
I was playing through "Leaving Lerwick Harbour" last night and even my non-musical wife realised it is an inversion of "The Slockitt Light". My son and myself played both A parts together and they harmonise exactly (the B part differs somewhat). Is this a composition or crib?
No one can ever say that Willie Hunter was not a decent Shetland composer, but we all crib occasionally, even if unintentionally.
In one of his early tirades in this thread, he who loveth his water clear, abused composers of writing tunes "for their egos".
But I suspect that this wretched correspondent's regular, tiring, compassion-free, jack-booted, carping diatribes are written purely to satisfy his throbbing, monstrous, cynical, festering ego.
I've had it to my back-teeth with those whose negativity is the only quality to which they give free rein ...
Now! Now! Aidan. Don't sit on the fence....say what you think.
I agree with everyone's comments about composers (except Monsieur Gill's...although we all have an ego to a greater or lesser extent).
If no-one ever wrote anything new the tradition would never progress and would become a museum. There will be some new tunes which are better (define better?) then others...as Will says...don't play the others.
re: The Tongadale reel (mentioned previously)..this is a tremendous tune which we have coupled with Maggie's Pancakes. Two NEW reels which greatly enhance the tradition and certainly do not force it. Keep on writing!
Ach Aidan - yer heid's still sair from our Kamekaze wine tasting after last Thursday's session! Of course I agree though.
But let me extend the argument of the detractors of new compositions. What if no-one ever composed any new songs? - both within and outside the tradition. And from what date would the moratorium on the composition of new songs be imposed? The 19th or 20th century? Singers would still be singing about merry little villages, or highwaymen, or ploughing fields and so on. There would be no songs about the famine, emigration, arrival and working in Britain/elsewhere, the troubles, such as those wittily composed by Sean Mone and others. Then let's extend this outside the tradition...there would be no Beatles, rock, pop, new classical music, jazz, anything.
Need I say more?
I hear the Taliban are looking for people like Mr G. ....
I shouldn't let the misanthropic musings of a self-confessed cynic wind me up so much.
But I think of all the good musicians - good, kind-hearted, funny, "open" people - that I've met or corresponded with via thesession and elsewhere in the world of the music and I feel angry that someone, with a few poison words, can be so destructive and so scornful of the integrity of individuals who he hasn't met or is unlikely to meet.
The one good thing about this thread is that it proves (not for the first time) that our truculent interloper marches to a different drum than the majority of those who've taken the time to post in this thread.
Still reflecting on this - but maybe The Detractors take the term "Traditional Music" a bit too literally. That's just a name, for want of a better word. It gives the impression of a severely conservative musical form. We know this to be only partly true, inasmuch as the main "forms" are dance music forms but within that, there's lotsa scope for expression, including composition, keeping it alive and spontaneous.
Maybe I've ended up being an apologist for The Detractors, but I was harsh to them earlier.
Don't beat yourself up for trying to find a reason behind some people's attitudes to the music, Danny.
You may well be right. Some people's over-literal interpretation of the term traditional (the origins of whose use applied to the music I seem to recall no-one having been able to pinpoint in an earlier thread) may cause them to baulk at new tunes.
However there is a *tradition* of composition in Irish music - less strong than that in Scottish music, Cape Breton music, etc. - which an over-literal interpretation of Irish Traditional Music ignores.
I think it all works out, in the end. If people are writing tunes along the lines of what Michael suggests, either no better than what we've got or outside the tradition, they'll get forgotton because no one will be playing them.
If a really good tune comes along it will eventually be incorporated into the traditiona and eventually everyone will forget exactly where it came from.
If NO new tunes ever came into the tradition, we'd all end up like ancient music organizations or the SCA; simply trying to recreate the past. Sure you can do a lot of wonderful, accurate and interesting work recreating what things were like in the past ... but that's not what *we're* about, I don't think.
New composition coming into the tradition is exactly "traditional" ... those tunes we play had to come from someone!
For those of us who haven't spent as much time on this site nor experienced the Trad Irish music as a whole, I thank you all for your insights as well as education.
I love the music and to find a mix of cultures etc. with the same interest has been great. Even with the rather neagtive impulses here from time to time, I have picked up quite a bit. Not to mention the occasional giggle as well!
I have to admit I rarely spend time thinking about what the composer/arranger was trying to convey, if I enjoy it, that's enough for me. I also don't worry as much about labels either. Yes, Trad Irish encompasses a style as well as culture, but both are not stagnant.
Going through a midlife crisis right now. I absolutely refuse to sound like my parents by questioning "why they had to muck it up, things were much better in my day" etc.
You know, I kinda *like* the idea of "playing in someone's musical antique shop" as PP put it; and I also like the idea of recreating the past as well like the SCA does, as Len put it. I like when my teacher shows me a tune and says this one is really old. You can tell by the gapped scale or the mode that it's in or whatever. That stuff is really neat and gives me a little scholarly insight into the tradition. But as most of us are in agreement here, new tunes keep the tradition alive. Also, by ego-driven I sincerely meant that we all are to some degree--it's part of the human condition.
I play a lot of old tunes, particularly from the Irish Big Pipe tradition. The age of a tune is irrelevant to my liking of it, but of cause any tune that’s survived for a long time in the tradition has got to have something going for it.
Music is ephemeral and only exists in the moment that it is being played or listened to, the moment is always now when ever it was first distilled from the somatocultural matrix.
I'm *so* glad we have Michael around to prod us out of our unthinking, mindless raving. Where would we be without his guiding hand?! Without his stamp of approval? (Um, do I really have to put "sarcasm" in parens here to get my point across?
Heh, on to cleaner (if not clearer) waters.....
Andee, I don't disagree that we all are yoked to our own egos, but my experience is that creativity is more fruitful when I'm least ego-centric or driven. In other words, art happens when the artist lets go of him/herself and zones into the work at hand. Of course, ego tends to play a much bigger role in subsequently presenting the work to the rest of the world, but that's a different step, or a different process altogether.
Will, I do understand your point and agree. It's hard to get to that pure creative center sometimes, though, isn't it? It's actually how I took up music--when I couldn't get out of my own ego-centered way to make paintings anymore, I put it aside (for now, anyway) and tried something completely different.
for me new tunes happen in two ways. i am suddenly aware that the tune i am humming or listening to in my head i have never heard before, it has already arrived fully-formed as a piece, (this happens in other areas of creativity to, in my work) this is the best because it is rare, effortless and un-asked for and cannot be conjured up artificially, i think it is an amalgamation of existing influences form memory and human ingenuity working away subconciously and is beautiful. if i can hum the tune or draw the image it then gets recorded and developed if worthy etc. a little present from within.
the other is similar but happens when i am actually practicising and have the instrument in my hands, in between tunes i might be pricking around with no particular intention and hear a musical accident that simply sounds nice and tehn you can develop it to suit your taste.
i think an awful lot of tunes arrive in these ways (any creative pursuit similarly) it is very difficult to set out to 'write' or 'design' something, much more beautiful when something falls out of you ready for life without you even knowing it was gestating inside of you.
jesus i am getting all maternal... better scratch my balls and watch soem football or something quick
While it's great and absolutely necessary that people keep writing new tunes and rewriting old ones, it's also happening at an overwhelming pace. The tradition simply can't sort through them and choose which ones to keep fast enough. Sure, some of the great ones will get adopted, but many other great ones will get lost in Michael's morass.
I think it's another recent discussion thread where it's been proposed to put newly composed tunes into a separate portion of the data base, a probationary section, if you will, where people would be encouraged to critique them. I think this is a great idea - both encouraging people to compose and submit, and encouraging people to help each other to identify the cream of the crop.
There's been some talk here about composers who decide that one of their compositions isn't worth disseminating. I've heard several stories from songwriters (and it's probably similar for tune writers) about songs they wrote but didn't think were very good that everybody (including other well-respected songwriters) thought were great. Composers are frequently too closely connected to their work to judge its quality objectively. They need unbiased feedback from other players who have no personal connection to them.
Gary, I'm not so sure that new tunes are arriving at an "overwhelming" rate. I don't think we have any baseline to compare today's rate to. Chances are there were lots of new tunes cropping up during the heydays of the 1920s-1930s. The difference today may be how easy it is to circulate tunes, though many different media. But those same media help us hold onto great tunes that might otherwise disappear--they lay dormant in abcs, sheet music, cds, mp3, etc, until someone stumbles across them and brings them to life.
But I *do* like the idea of a place to post original tunes. I'm hoping Max or someone else with extra energy decides to start a separate web site for new tunes in the Irish tradition form.
Forcing the tradition
Forcing the tradition
I've gone through the archives and come up with nothing that completely answers my question, so hopefully this question has some original merit to it.
I've only been around this site for a year or so, but it seems that there is an increasing number of original tunes popping up. This is great, and new tunes help keep the tradition going. What I was wondering is why people out there compose tunes? I've read about some of the old-timers in Ireland (guys back before the CD, cassette, and even records) composed tunes simply because they had learned all the tunes from their local town, and needed something new to play. Nowadays, this likely would not be the case. With the number of recordings available, there will never be a shortage of tunes to learn.
I almost get the sense that some people set out to compose tunes because they think that they need to make an impact on the tradition. Is this in any way forcing the tradition? Does anybody know (or read bios about, seen quotes, etc. that you could link me to) if some of the more modern composers actually set out to make their mark with tunes (i.e. write and record, so the tune is automatically out in society) that have now seeped into the tradition, or have they simply let the natural selection process occur?
I know this is kinda a mish-mash of questions, but hopefully it makes some sense, and my overuse of parentheses hasn't confused people.
So, what do people think?
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Jason G
Re: Forcing the tradition
This doesn't answer your question about the tradition, but here's something to think about:
I'm not a composer, but occasionally I hear incredible music in my dreams, and I always wish I could capture it. Sometimes it's so elaborately arranged or orchestrated that it's way beyond my ability to write down, even if I were awake, and at best I'm lucky if I remember a fragment of melody when I wake up. A couple of weeks ago, though, I dreamed about music performed by a Renaissance ensemble, sung by a chorus of women. I remembered a bit of melody upon awaking, and I thought, "If I put a shuffle bow to that, it might be a fiddle tune." That didn't work, but when I started playing the tune slowly and adding a bit of ornamentation, it was like I had opened a door and let the tune out. So I called it "Renaissance Woman." It can't decide whether to be a lament or a pipe march or both, but what the heck. It feels amazing to "compose" a piece of music and bring it to life in the world, even if so far my entire audience consists of two cats (and maybe my nearest neighbor, considering that the wind's been from the south).
So I'd like to suggest that perhaps one reason that people write tunes is the same reason that Sir Edmund Hillary climbed Mount Everest: "Because it is there."
Carol
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carolsviolin
Re: Forcing the tradition
Just my two cents: most people I know who write tunes say that they're not writing them, they just pick them up out of that reservoir of music that Kevin Burke talks about. Some *do* write tunes, of course. And I'm sure there's those who want to leave some marks on the world that they were here once upon a time. I suppose that really the reasons for writing original tunes is going to be as varied as the people in the tradition. I don't' really see that it's forcing the tradition.
Besides which, if people don't like the tune, it doesn't end up getting played out. ;)
Zina
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Forcing the tradition
Excelent pionts sir. There are way too many tunes kicking about and people do write tunes that are either no better than the ones that we have already, or are so different as to be not concidered within the tradition.
The only reason people write tunes is for their egos and, quite frankly, their egos are just not up to it.
There is a linked problem here of making CDs. When making a CD, there is the quandry of whether to put original tunes on it. They say "whats the point of making a CD with tunes that everybody already know on it?". But the tunes that we all know are the best tunes. So my answer is "Whats the point of making a CD?
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Forcing the tradition
So there. *grin*
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Forcing the tradition
Hi Jason,
In the words of the wise Kieran O'Hare, "I like to write tunes to commemorate disasters."
Seriously though, I don't think composing tunes is a way to force the tradition. I've rarely heard of a composer - in traditional music, anyway - who have set out to make their 'mark' on the trad world by composing tunes. In a way, playing your own composition at a session is a bit of a no-no, unless your Liz Carroll or unless you want to be perceived as pompous.
I compose tunes on a sporadic basis. I'll go through a period of a few weeks where I write tunes all the time, and then I'll hit a dry spell that can last upwards of a year. I don't go out 'looking' for tunes, the melodies just sort of happen. I've written bits of tunes on the beach, on the subway, in bed, at sessions, etc.
I write to commemorate stories, disasters and accomplishments. I write tunes to fit in with song melodies. I write tunes for harmony projects at school. I write them as gifts for people (wrote "Johnny and Box Boy's" about a year ago), and for my own personal enjoyment. When the time is right, I might play them for a friend to get some feedback, and eventually I might perform them in public at one of my own gigs. Maybe one day I'll record them, but I'd never play them at a session.
I think most people set about composing tunes for the same reasons:
1. Why not?
2. It makes me happy.
Cara
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carafiddle
Re: Forcing the tradition
When it comes down to it, playing and creating music is less about this or that tradition and much more about enjoying this innate urge people have to be musical. Coming up with new tunes is a natural extension of noodling around on your fiddle or flute or whatever. New melodies suggest themselves. And the tunes that come out reflect the type of music you play--I mostly play Irish trad music, so those motifs are the building blocks of how I think musically (though I've also composed bluegrass and rock tunes, when I'm in those frames of mind).
Maybe some people are more deliberate about shaping the tradition, but that seems less likely the driving reason than a simple, organic urge to create.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Will CPT
Tunes aren't just about the dots/notes...tunes are about what THEY'RE about...what you were thinking about when you composed them, the images that you're trying to describe musically.
Composing tunes, like recording a CD, is about sharing your musical emotions and feelings with the rest of the world. Why do you compose?
Liken it to conversation. Suppose last night you had a conversation and you wanted to say something really important, but you couldn't because your vocabulary didn't allow you to.
So you go and learn, compose. Not because you want to become a better player or make your 'mark' on the world of traditional music, but because you want to express yourself even more.
cara
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carafiddle
"Too many tunes kicking about..." Gee, I didn't think we could ever have too much music.
Michael, in his inimitable way, has once again stereotyped the lot of us (tune writers at least) at the level of the 0.00001 percent of people who play music for selfish reasons. For me ego has nothing to do with it. Coming up with a tune is more about getting your ego out of the way so the music can come through.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Forcing the tradition
I think Will has just "nutshelled" this one from my point of view.
I believe that traditional music in what ever form has always been an opportunity for an individual to express themselves through their music or songs and that this form of self expression is learnt and passed on through generations.
People like to create in whatever art form they are capable of using and the "tradition" is no exception
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by mikemcdaid
Re: Forcing the tradition
There's a point being missed here: a perfectly formed contradiction. If you write a tune in the trad idium, you're not contributing anything, just adding to the morras. If you write it out of the trad idium, then that's not what this discussion is about.
All you people with you're "inate urges", fulfiling your "own personal enjoyments" with the "music in your dreams" are doing is muddying the once clear waters.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Forcing the tradition
Michael,
I trust you will never hear "Renaissance Woman." Very few --- if any --- people will.
Carol
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carolsviolin
Thank God for composers ...
Thank God for Josephine Keegan, for Ed Reavey, for Josie McDermott, Martin Wynne, for Andy McGann and their kindred, inspired brothers and sisters in arms.
Just think ... if the "clear waters" hadn't been "muddied" by tunes like "The Curlews", "Cap And Bell", "The Hunter's House", "Maudabawn Chapel", "The Trip To Birmingham", etc. would we have been the richer or the poorer?
I think Scrooge has made an appearance a wee bit early this year!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Forcing the tradition
I think Scrooge is talking out of his morass...
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Yohan
Re: Forcing the tradition
Oh, I thought he meant Morrasan's. What an idium I must be.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carolsviolin
Oops. I meant idiut.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carolsviolin
Re: Forcing the tradition
I'm echoing what Aidan said...what about Paddy O'Brien, Liz Carroll, John McCusker, Paddy Fahy, Vincent Broderick...
Surely they all composed for the same reasons. How have all of these fine musicians and composers 'muddied the waters?' Someone somewhere, at some point in history MUST have composed the Silver Spear, the Sally Gardens and the Maid Behind the Bar. They did not appear out of thin air.
Michael, I don't understand your cynicism.
Cara
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carafiddle
Re: Forcing the tradition
most people don't write tunes, they just make them up
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by geb
Re: Forcing the tradition
Every time you play a tune you re-write it, if you don't you might as well be a machine.
Remember that 99% of the tunes we play are dance tunes; that’s the idiom, and people have been writing new dance tunes since the year dot, the idea that we should stop now because some of the less imaginative players find it challenging is nonsense.
I have no interest in playing in some ones musical antique shop.
TTFN
PP
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Forcing the tradition
Hear, hear.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carafiddle
Re: Forcing the tradition
Michael's rant reminds me of a cartoon I saw once where a teenager opens his Christmas present while his parents look on, and he says "Oh. A book. But I've already got one."
Admittedly many people try to write tunes without a serious grounding in the phrasing and structure of traditional music. However, that's not to say that they shouldn't keep composing.
While we may not all be Paddy Faheys, someone may still come up with a tune that's worth learning. The great tunes will eventually be passed around, played and become part of the tradition; you don't bother learning a tune you don't like unless you either can't help it through hearing it so often or you're a wannabe.
If everyone had the attitude that there shouldn't be any more tunes written, the tradition would stagnate. It's my personal opinion that people who worry about the number of tunes being too great feel that they will have somehow mastered the music when they can play all 8,000 (or whatever number) of them.
Irish tunes aren't something you collect like box sets of Star Trek videos, and there's no sense in trying to stop people from being creative. Can you imagine Van Gogh packing in the painting because there were already too many to look at in the world? And people thought he was an eejit in his time.
Anyway, that's me for now.
Conán
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Forcing the tradition
Might be worth mentioning that I think Michael sometimes likes to stick a wrench in the works simply to see who he can wind up. ;)
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Forcing the tradition
I'd like to know where Michael thinks all the trad tunes came from in the first place....
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Forcing the tradition
Good grief. If musicians in the past had followed Michael's advice we would all be playing the one tune.
Perhaps Michael is one of those americans that asked us a question at one of our sessions. Why do you guys play the same tune all night?!!!****
Lets also consider the corrolloary of this question. Why bother learning any new tunes? Sure if Michael has learnt one tune he has obviously grasped the entire idiom and need play no more?
Enough of the guff Mick.
Tunes are what make the world go around and fair play to all the boys and girls out there composing, making up, or whatever. They make life that much more interesting.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by breandan
Re: Forcing the tradition
Zina, whatever he does, it works. I'm biting the end of my workbench and growling like a Dobermann just thinking about it.
I like to think of Michael working in that office featured in the Monty Python sketch where the guy walks in and says "Hello. I've come for an argument".
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Oops!
Breandan, bit of a blunder there mate, apart from the obvious good point! Michael's Scottish (ach well he lives in Edinburgh so we can't be too sure), and it's the American contingent who are ganging up on him.
By the way, I heard you still hadn't learnt that tune we keep playing.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Forcing the tradition
You're no Yank, Conán! Unless you've been doing an amazing job of having us on all this time. *grin* Can I come watch you eat your workbench? How do you deal with splinters twixt the teeth? Heh. I'd forgotten about the Monty Python sketch.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Forcing the tradition
I feel that there is some justification for the "forcing the tradition" argument. How many of the new groups producing CDs feel obliged to throw in a few new compositions which so often are a hotch potch of existing standards - I can't be the only one whose listened to 2 bars of Jerry's Beaver Hat and then find the jig goes somewhere else entirely or has to endure a reel with nothing but chord type phrases. Somebody already mentioned the concept of music being out there to be tapped into and I firmly believe in this. Great composers like Tommy Peoples, Paddy O'Brien, Vincent Broderick, Paddy Fahy have the ability to do this and long may they continue to do so. The magic in their music speaks for itself. However, someone who sits down to manufacture "x" number of tunes in a given period would be much better employed learning some of the great tunes already out there and only committing pen to paper when suitably inspired. Sorry if this sounds like a rant but I've had it on my chest for a long time and this thread gave me the opportunity to express it!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Bannerman
Re: Forcing the tradition
Couldn't agree more Bannerman
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Bernie
Re: Forcing the tradition
Hey Jason,
I wrote a dance tune once, but it really wasn't very good, and I soon stopped playing it and forgot it altogether. I also wrote a lament. That one I kinda like. But I would never post either of those tunes I wrote here. I wrote them just for me or to play for a few friends, not to play at a session and never ever to make my mark on the tradition. That's propably the case for many others including our friends here like Will and Cara and Carol and others. I do bet there are also a good amount of ego-driven people (Ha! who isn't?) folks out there who *are* looking to make their mark on the tradition (I guess that's what you mean by forcing the tradition). But like Zina said, if there tunes arent' any good no one will play them and they won't become part of the tradition anyway.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Andee
Re: Forcing the tradition
Hey--I didn't mean to imply in my last post that anybody who *did* post original tunes here was completely ego-driven. Who am I to say who the next Vincent Broderick will be? I just know it's definitely not me!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Andee
Re: Forcing the tradition
I have a good friend who wrote a tune to honor my reaching the summit on a difficult climb in S. America. He'd seen me training for many months and learned of the success via email. Upon my return he played it at our session. I don't believe ego played a role in motivation, rather he used one gift to create another gift. It was a lovely gesture that humbled the both of us.
Planxtys were similarly given, no?
Best,
Steve
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Stevie C
Re: Forcing the tradition
Perhaps by morass, Mr. Gill means us to infer a remarkably rich, fertile, well-watered field of music.... About the only benefit to his negativity is that it sparks people to post who we don't hear from often enough. It's great to see creativity and the music supported and encouraged.
I agree with Bannerman that there are plenty of uninspired new tunes. But the way this traditional form works is that 99.9 percent of those tunes eventually fall by the wayside. And I'd wager that Peoples, O'Brien, Broderick, and Fahy have pieced together a few clunkers in their day that aren't played much if at all anywhere. But we remember the good ones and keep playing them, and collectively tweaking them. For every Inion Ni Scannlain (by Donnogh Hennessy) or Sweeney's Buttermilk (Bredan McGlinchey), there are no doubt dozens or hundreds of tunes that somehow don't make the grade. So what. Don't play the ones you don't like, but play the hell out of the ones you do.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Forcing the tradition
I think it's interesting that people think it's a "no-no" to play your own tunes at a session. Personally, I love to have people play their own tunes at a session, in the same way that it's great when people introduce tunes that they've found elsewhere. Saying "there are too many tunes already" misses the point: there are an effectively unlimited number of tunes out there. A rough count in my abc directory gives over 18000 tunes; not to mention feet of shelf space taken up with old tune collections. And still many of my favourite tunes aren't there, 'cos they've been composed recently. Surely what's important is the set of tunes you and your compatriots play together, your *local* tradition? Loss of regional diversity is something that people always seem to be lamenting, but isn't embracing tunes written by local people a small divergence from the larger tradition, and one that should be celebrated?! Go to a session far away, and it's not uncommon to find that their "standards" don't include any of the tunes you're used to, and, if you're lucky, some are *only* played in that session. If they're good, perhaps they'll circulate. It wasn't so long ago I heard a tune being played in a bar near my folks' place on Skye; I got the name off the player (who'd written it) and introduced it to a session down here in York, where it quickly became a standard. It spead elsewhere too: I bet a few of you reading this know the Tongadale Reel. Good tunes live, indifferent tunes die. Every new tune is a potential delight. Everyone should write new tunes!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by rog
Re: Forcing the tradition
oh yeah: i think michael's post was probably trying be a "recuctio ad absurdum" type argument. i don't believe he really meant that no-one should produce any more recorded music, now, did you michael?!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by rog
Re: Forcing the tradition
Michael certainly knows how to kick-start a discussion.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Ottery
Re: Forcing the tradition
More like drop kick....
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Forcing the tradition
More like kick a man when he's down - but on this occasion that's where you deserve to stay, Michael. I was rather shocked to read your assertion that there are too many tunes around, and felt I had to respond, like the many other correspondents here. I've never heard such a poorly thought out argument wrt the music, and it says more about you than it does about the living tradition that we are engaged in. Also you have no right to say such things unless you've tried some composition yourself - even if you did immediately destroy the fruit of your labours on the basis of your stagnant Stalinist ideology. What you said belittles the efforts of some of the members of this site who are active composers, who no doubt laughed your comments off, as I did, knowing you were trying to stir up the sh!t at the bottom...but maybe not everyone knows how to take your wind ups.
As a biologist, I like to parallel our living musical tradition to that of living systems, where there is huge variety fulfilling many niches, and is constantly being reformed, remodelled and replenished. It may not be as 'good' (or it might be better) as 100 years ago, but at least it's not the same! It's going somewhere but who knows where.
If you can't keep up with it (not saying I can - I just keep to my niche - learn some new ones, forget some old ones), I wouldn't be so vocal about admitting it - albeit thinly disguised as there being too many tunes.
Ok, I shouldn't be pounding Michael so much - if anyone here can't understand that people *will* be compelled to compose new tunes, in the same way as we are compelled to play existing tunes, then it it's like the old retort:
If you need to ask, you won't understand the answer anyway.
Danny.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Forcing the tradition
Connaughtman --- Was this what you had in mind when you initiated this discussion?
And Michael Gill --- What is your definition of "the tradition," and how did you arrive at it?
Carol
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by carolsviolin
Re: Forcing the tradition
Well, more to the point of C'man's original question, one example springs to my mind. Ciaran Tourish once came up with a tune while Altan was putting a cd to bed, and they added that tune to a set. He called it the Windmill, after the name of the studio, and it's a brilliant reel.
But I wouldn't rush to think Tourish or Altan was trying to force the tune on the tradition just because they included it--a brand spanking new reel--on the cd. More likely, they knew a great tune as soon as they heard it, and being somewhat competent musicians, right, they promptly learned it and recorded it, as much out of their own enjoyment of the tune as anything.
In fact, it probably hasn't made much of a dent in the tradition, and I doubt Ciaran's lost any sleep over that. He's likely too busy playing the music.
My guess is that the more common experience of composers of "new trad" tunes runs along the lines of Hammy Hamilton, who says he's always a bit astonished and blushing when he hears one of his tunes (such as the Kerfunten or the Woodcock) played out at a session.
Also, just because a tune lands on a cd doesn't necessarily mean that it's somehow bypassed the "natural selection" process of the tradition. People may still ignore it, and it may never rise into the ranks of tunes commonly played at sessions.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Leaving Lerwick Harbour - composition or crib?
And by the same token, the idea that we should stop composing now because some of the less imaginative composers, is also silly. We have to put up with some crap to hear the exceptional.
I regard putting sets together as a form of arrangement or composition, and when people comment what a good set that is, you know you have done it correctly.
I also put my own "stamp" on tunes, sometimes adding extra parts - are these variations or compositions?
I was playing through "Leaving Lerwick Harbour" last night and even my non-musical wife realised it is an inversion of "The Slockitt Light". My son and myself played both A parts together and they harmonise exactly (the B part differs somewhat). Is this a composition or crib?
No one can ever say that Willie Hunter was not a decent Shetland composer, but we all crib occasionally, even if unintentionally.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Forcing the tradition
Michael, I take my hat off to you. Nobody else on this site has the ability to wind up so many people so quickly as you!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Dow
Re: Forcing the tradition
BTW, re: playing your own compositions in a session - when Matti came to Sydney we played "The Girls Of Grindavik". It's a great tune so why not?
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Dow
By the way ...
In one of his early tirades in this thread, he who loveth his water clear, abused composers of writing tunes "for their egos".
But I suspect that this wretched correspondent's regular, tiring, compassion-free, jack-booted, carping diatribes are written purely to satisfy his throbbing, monstrous, cynical, festering ego.
I've had it to my back-teeth with those whose negativity is the only quality to which they give free rein ...
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Forcing the tradition
Now! Now! Aidan. Don't sit on the fence....say what you think.
I agree with everyone's comments about composers (except Monsieur Gill's...although we all have an ego to a greater or lesser extent).
If no-one ever wrote anything new the tradition would never progress and would become a museum. There will be some new tunes which are better (define better?) then others...as Will says...don't play the others.
re: The Tongadale reel (mentioned previously)..this is a tremendous tune which we have coupled with Maggie's Pancakes. Two NEW reels which greatly enhance the tradition and certainly do not force it. Keep on writing!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Forcing the tradition
Ach Aidan - yer heid's still sair from our Kamekaze wine tasting after last Thursday's session! Of course I agree though.
But let me extend the argument of the detractors of new compositions. What if no-one ever composed any new songs? - both within and outside the tradition. And from what date would the moratorium on the composition of new songs be imposed? The 19th or 20th century? Singers would still be singing about merry little villages, or highwaymen, or ploughing fields and so on. There would be no songs about the famine, emigration, arrival and working in Britain/elsewhere, the troubles, such as those wittily composed by Sean Mone and others. Then let's extend this outside the tradition...there would be no Beatles, rock, pop, new classical music, jazz, anything.
Need I say more?
I hear the Taliban are looking for people like Mr G. ....
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Sorry, Geoff ...
Mea culpa, Geoff ...
I shouldn't let the misanthropic musings of a self-confessed cynic wind me up so much.
But I think of all the good musicians - good, kind-hearted, funny, "open" people - that I've met or corresponded with via thesession and elsewhere in the world of the music and I feel angry that someone, with a few poison words, can be so destructive and so scornful of the integrity of individuals who he hasn't met or is unlikely to meet.
The one good thing about this thread is that it proves (not for the first time) that our truculent interloper marches to a different drum than the majority of those who've taken the time to post in this thread.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
And Danny ...
The oul' napper was fair givin' me jip the next day, right enough!
But not as much jip as I got when I read the boul' Michael's stuff.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
The "tradition"
Still reflecting on this - but maybe The Detractors take the term "Traditional Music" a bit too literally. That's just a name, for want of a better word. It gives the impression of a severely conservative musical form. We know this to be only partly true, inasmuch as the main "forms" are dance music forms but within that, there's lotsa scope for expression, including composition, keeping it alive and spontaneous.
Maybe I've ended up being an apologist for The Detractors, but I was harsh to them earlier.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Forcing the tradition
One of the many splendid things about this thread is that it proves you can all think when you have too
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by llig leahcim
Don't beat yourself up for trying to find a reason behind some people's attitudes to the music, Danny.
You may well be right. Some people's over-literal interpretation of the term traditional (the origins of whose use applied to the music I seem to recall no-one having been able to pinpoint in an earlier thread) may cause them to baulk at new tunes.
However there is a *tradition* of composition in Irish music - less strong than that in Scottish music, Cape Breton music, etc. - which an over-literal interpretation of Irish Traditional Music ignores.
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
" ... you can all think when you have too (sic)" ...
Guess what I'm thinking, now!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Forcing the tradition
Something that rhymes with anchor?
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Forcing the tradition
I think it all works out, in the end. If people are writing tunes along the lines of what Michael suggests, either no better than what we've got or outside the tradition, they'll get forgotton because no one will be playing them.
If a really good tune comes along it will eventually be incorporated into the traditiona and eventually everyone will forget exactly where it came from.
If NO new tunes ever came into the tradition, we'd all end up like ancient music organizations or the SCA; simply trying to recreate the past. Sure you can do a lot of wonderful, accurate and interesting work recreating what things were like in the past ... but that's not what *we're* about, I don't think.
New composition coming into the tradition is exactly "traditional" ... those tunes we play had to come from someone!
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by KeepFiddlin'
Close, Danny ...
The words supercilious, condescending and offensive might have made an appearance in the mix.
Whatever!
Here's to happier threads!
Slán ...
# Posted on November 3rd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Forcing the tradition
Good Morning!
For those of us who haven't spent as much time on this site nor experienced the Trad Irish music as a whole, I thank you all for your insights as well as education.
I love the music and to find a mix of cultures etc. with the same interest has been great. Even with the rather neagtive impulses here from time to time, I have picked up quite a bit. Not to mention the occasional giggle as well!
I have to admit I rarely spend time thinking about what the composer/arranger was trying to convey, if I enjoy it, that's enough for me. I also don't worry as much about labels either. Yes, Trad Irish encompasses a style as well as culture, but both are not stagnant.
Going through a midlife crisis right now. I absolutely refuse to sound like my parents by questioning "why they had to muck it up, things were much better in my day" etc.
Have a great day/afternoon/evening everyone!
Deb.
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Forcing the tradition
You know, I kinda *like* the idea of "playing in someone's musical antique shop" as PP put it; and I also like the idea of recreating the past as well like the SCA does, as Len put it. I like when my teacher shows me a tune and says this one is really old. You can tell by the gapped scale or the mode that it's in or whatever. That stuff is really neat and gives me a little scholarly insight into the tradition. But as most of us are in agreement here, new tunes keep the tradition alive. Also, by ego-driven I sincerely meant that we all are to some degree--it's part of the human condition.
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Andee
Re: Forcing the tradition
I play a lot of old tunes, particularly from the Irish Big Pipe tradition. The age of a tune is irrelevant to my liking of it, but of cause any tune that’s survived for a long time in the tradition has got to have something going for it.
Music is ephemeral and only exists in the moment that it is being played or listened to, the moment is always now when ever it was first distilled from the somatocultural matrix.
TTFN
PP
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Forcing the tradition
I'm *so* glad we have Michael around to prod us out of our unthinking, mindless raving. Where would we be without his guiding hand?! Without his stamp of approval? (Um, do I really have to put "sarcasm" in parens here to get my point across?
Heh, on to cleaner (if not clearer) waters.....
Andee, I don't disagree that we all are yoked to our own egos, but my experience is that creativity is more fruitful when I'm least ego-centric or driven. In other words, art happens when the artist lets go of him/herself and zones into the work at hand. Of course, ego tends to play a much bigger role in subsequently presenting the work to the rest of the world, but that's a different step, or a different process altogether.
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Forcing the tradition
Will, I do understand your point and agree. It's hard to get to that pure creative center sometimes, though, isn't it? It's actually how I took up music--when I couldn't get out of my own ego-centered way to make paintings anymore, I put it aside (for now, anyway) and tried something completely different.
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by Andee
Re: Forcing the tradition
for me new tunes happen in two ways. i am suddenly aware that the tune i am humming or listening to in my head i have never heard before, it has already arrived fully-formed as a piece, (this happens in other areas of creativity to, in my work) this is the best because it is rare, effortless and un-asked for and cannot be conjured up artificially, i think it is an amalgamation of existing influences form memory and human ingenuity working away subconciously and is beautiful. if i can hum the tune or draw the image it then gets recorded and developed if worthy etc. a little present from within.
the other is similar but happens when i am actually practicising and have the instrument in my hands, in between tunes i might be pricking around with no particular intention and hear a musical accident that simply sounds nice and tehn you can develop it to suit your taste.
i think an awful lot of tunes arrive in these ways (any creative pursuit similarly) it is very difficult to set out to 'write' or 'design' something, much more beautiful when something falls out of you ready for life without you even knowing it was gestating inside of you.
jesus i am getting all maternal... better scratch my balls and watch soem football or something quick
# Posted on November 4th 2003 by mackers
Re: Forcing the tradition
While it's great and absolutely necessary that people keep writing new tunes and rewriting old ones, it's also happening at an overwhelming pace. The tradition simply can't sort through them and choose which ones to keep fast enough. Sure, some of the great ones will get adopted, but many other great ones will get lost in Michael's morass.
I think it's another recent discussion thread where it's been proposed to put newly composed tunes into a separate portion of the data base, a probationary section, if you will, where people would be encouraged to critique them. I think this is a great idea - both encouraging people to compose and submit, and encouraging people to help each other to identify the cream of the crop.
There's been some talk here about composers who decide that one of their compositions isn't worth disseminating. I've heard several stories from songwriters (and it's probably similar for tune writers) about songs they wrote but didn't think were very good that everybody (including other well-respected songwriters) thought were great. Composers are frequently too closely connected to their work to judge its quality objectively. They need unbiased feedback from other players who have no personal connection to them.
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by GaryAMartin
Re: Forcing the tradition
Gary, I'm not so sure that new tunes are arriving at an "overwhelming" rate. I don't think we have any baseline to compare today's rate to. Chances are there were lots of new tunes cropping up during the heydays of the 1920s-1930s. The difference today may be how easy it is to circulate tunes, though many different media. But those same media help us hold onto great tunes that might otherwise disappear--they lay dormant in abcs, sheet music, cds, mp3, etc, until someone stumbles across them and brings them to life.
But I *do* like the idea of a place to post original tunes. I'm hoping Max or someone else with extra energy decides to start a separate web site for new tunes in the Irish tradition form.
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by Will CPT