We play what we consider to be a cracking good set - then it all dissolves away in an indecisive mush at the very end. Someone does it with a little slow-down, someone else adds a final note as a sort of little coda, someone else just stops dead, someone else else draws out the last note...is this living proof that democracy doesn't work? I'd be interested to hear any advice as to how a poor old bunch of Cornwall's finest can improve matters. Something that, er, never seems to work for us is having long, earnest discussions about technicalities...or practising...
Wow, three threads in a row that are about playing in sessions. Amazing!
I've experienced exactly what you're talking about. I don't know that there's a solution. If it's an open session, then ambiguous endings are going to happen. Practicing together is the only solution, which is not a session, so maybe some of the regulars who know each other can arrange to get together for that purpose. I'm sure that would congeal things a bit. Granted, I'm a wee novice, but I'm still a musician, and that just seems common sense to me. I may stand to be corrected, however, and I expect that will happen here.
I dont know whether this is what's happening in your session, Steve, but the mechanics of what you're describing happen a lot, in many sessions.
Often the cause seems to be (something that has other effects as well as ruining endings) a sort of false modesty - as if to say, I'll just stop here, no bold finish, let's not make it too slick, it might look as if it matters, or is important, or we're making a statement or something.
If you can do it, I think one way round this is to end on a *marginally* longer, *marginally* quieter and smoother note. Sounds 'inoffensive' and suitably modest but doesn't wreck the end either. I reckon one player doing that, quietly and unobtrusively, could start to influence the whole session without it ever needing to be mentioned out loud.
I'll second that: think of another tune with a solid ending and play it at the end. Obviously what you think is a cracking set does not have a cracking finish. Maybe you could change the order, or play the first tune again?
Yeah, I know, that slowing down...it makes up for all the speeding up we do in the middle of the set. At least we can say we started and finished at the same speed.
I can see it now ... you've been out for a day's fishing in a small boat ... just getting your land legs back ... and then the swaying tempos and the speeding up and slowing down kick in ...
Ah, but you're into dangerous territory there, Bernie. That was a performance, on a stage. People behave differently in sessions. People behave differently in performance as well, but I think there are themes that recur for each type of setting. And I think there's the tendency, in sessions, almost to scupper the ending in a sort of throwaway, hurried mess that says 'There, that wasn't that great really, was it? No big deal.'
Oh yes, it was definitely a performance, my point is that even when you put them up on a stage like that, traditional musicians can behave with a charming modesty and lack of pretentiousness.
Well, if the "charming modesty", when applied to sessions, leads to an "indecisive mush" of an ending ... why not go the whole hog, and have the whole set as an indecisive mush, arising out of charming modesty? If it's good for the ending, you could have that same superior music throughout the whole evening if you really tried.
At which point, I might be likely to make an organic mess.
No, not really, we usually end at the same time. We borrowed this thing from Bluegrass. If we hup or nod or nothing, there's another tune coming. If you're the set starter and you're done, you raise your foot a teeny bit off the ground and hold it until someone else sees, then we know you're done, so we'll all play the last note long and everyone feels like we stopped at the same time and we've earned a gulp of brew.
I suppose there's always that great big chord that the Scottish ceilidh bands play on the Hogmanay do on the telly. You can even put one of those at the beginning of the set too! Haven't watched that for a few years. It isn't still Andy Stewart and Moira Anderson, is it?
Someone usually raises their foot also at our local session to indicate that this is the last time through. I would raise my foot but that is somewhat difficult if you are the piano player. I suppose I could stick my foot out to one side but that would also be awkward. Besides, I almost never play melody anyway--I just accompany the other musicians (using the term rather loosely).
Don't you just love the times when after playing an averagely successful set, the end just goes so well that it feels as though the whole set went better than it really did. A finish that has everybody coming together and hitting a big wallop totally in tune and in time. Yes ... it does happen to us sometimes and it makes us all grin and yell afterwards (almost in disbelief!).
We typically end by drawing out the note, but we tend to let the person who started the set end it the way they want. We're all looking up when the tune comes around for what might be the end, so it's not hard to sense what the person is going to do.
We have some fun with endings, too. Every now and then one of us will play a quick Eflat note following the ending, as if by mistake. And if you do get caught playing when the others have ended, it's fun to just finish the tune with a little flourish.
For us, the main thing is that we like and respect each other, and we're all having fun when we play.
The problem with raising the foot, blurting out "ho" (as opposed to "hup"), or doing a Three Blind Mice ending, is that it takes away some of the spontaneity of a session. Part of the fun is when someone else tacks a tune onto the end of a set, because it struck their fancy at that moment. (As well as the occasional train wreck that ensues when more than one person try that). But the point is that it's a fluid thing. It's not a performance. And if it dissolves into mush, who cares?
Most of the sessions I play in are pretty good about paying enough attention to be able to end a set fairly gracefully without anything other than maybe a nod or raised eyebrow, even though we often play tunes different numbers of times, and sometimes stretch sets on for 6 or more tunes...
OK, if your session plays 'those reels that end with X' all the time and everyone knows them and knows when to stop, that's one thing. People should know their regular sets.
Doesn't anyone ever string together sets on the fly with no prior plan about where to end, so if you'd like a clean ending, you’d better make some sort of sign?
I mean, we're not out there in our feather boas, oversized Elton John sunglasses and laser light shows. We just like to have a good time and all stop playing at the same time, if possible. It creates the happy illusion that we actually know what we're doing. It amuses us and we have a good time.
Agreed. It's going to be difficult to have a clean ending, or even a clean transition, when stringing tunes rather than playing a common set within a given session. Oh well. That's part of the game, isn't it?
I'm not quite with this ... people (SWFL, say) are suggesting that you don;t know when the set is going to end ... but, you kind of do, don't you? I mean, it just sort of feels like it's the last tune doesn't it? Admittedly, sometimes about half a second before the last note, but still ...
Mostly our session ends tune sets all together with broad grins and slow reaches for our pint glasses - utterly boring I agree - that is why I have been trying to introduce James Brown type endings to our sets - where we pump out the last note, once, then twice, then three times, etc, on and on until we are all pounding away furiously on the last note .
SWFL, I would say that probably 75% of our sets are built on the fly. Most of the time, when I start a set, I start playing a tune, and don't figure out what is coming next until maybe the last time through a tune. Sometimes not until something appears beneath my fingers. This is something that I started doing a couple years ago, when llig made a comment about letting tunes "bubble up"...
But even with this, everybody has a pretty good idea of when we're going to switch from one tune to another, usually from a glance, or an occasional "hup", or just the fact that we've played the tune a number of times already. And most of the time, people don't know what's coming next. So the transition between tunes is a bit stilted. But if you do that enough, you get pretty good at playing the "I can guess that tune in 3 notes" kind of thing, and basically keep playing, even if you don't know what's next.
The same thing works at the end of a set. Everybody knows that either the set is going to end, or another tune is going to start. So in that split second at the end of a tune, you either decide to stop, or to keep playing. And it all works out fairly gracefully, without too much hullaballoo, or insider signals. I mean, people pick up on things like body language for their signals. When we have newcomers or strangers in our sessions, we'll often communicate a bit more noticeably, by saying "one more", or "hup", or calling out the name of the next tune...
Like I said, it's pretty common in my sessions for someone to kick into another tune at the end of the set, and just keep it going, so the "leader" of the set might change a couple times during the course of the tunes, and that often leads to train wrecks, or "mushy" endings, but who cares?
There is a solution, finish every set with the Star of Munster reel, that has a solid ending, so no more dithering or doddering (I don't think that's a word). The end will always be good
Or ... never ever ever ever finish a set with the Star of Munster. Way way way too predictable. If someone fires up that tune as the third tune in a set, they are asking for the set to be hijacked.
And talking of hijacking sets. The best way I've found to do it is to start the hijacking tune half a bar in. It has the tremendous effects of not only an interesting initial confusion, but also a way of dragging your strummer out of his comfort zone of irritatingly accenting the back beat an forcing him to accent the down beat.
>And talking of hijacking sets. The best way I've found to do it >is to start the hijacking tune half a bar in. It has the >tremendous effects of not only an interesting initial >confusion, but also a way of dragging your strummer out of >his comfort zone of irritatingly accenting the back beat an >forcing him to accent the down beat.
tremendous! Might I suggest this could only be improved on by shouting "Take me to Cuba!" in a bad generic foreign accent at the point of hijack.
Actually, I might start saying "take me to Cuba" whenever a set does get hijacked, accidentaly or otherwise, now that I've thought of it the idea appeals to me.
I can't plan sets (or anything else for that matter). 95% of my sets are strung together on the fly, which makes for some interesting transitions. "I don't know what I'm playing but it appears to be something in G...."
I find endings often turn into trainwrecks, with people going, "Are we playing it again, yes, no, maybe, I guess not." *crash*
I have been told previously to stop coddling people and quit with the signs. Perhaps it's the teacher in me. I'll try to throw them to the wolves more often, I promise!
If you have problems ending a set - how on earth do you manage to change tune?
The sign of a good session leader is to be able to give a signal in the tune itself, that this is the end, so even people who can't see you, know what is going on.
Always read the small print. Investments may go down as well as up. Stuff happens. The above suggestion is foolproof - but not idiot-proof.
How to end the last tune in the set
How to end the last tune in the set
We play what we consider to be a cracking good set - then it all dissolves away in an indecisive mush at the very end. Someone does it with a little slow-down, someone else adds a final note as a sort of little coda, someone else just stops dead, someone else else draws out the last note...is this living proof that democracy doesn't work? I'd be interested to hear any advice as to how a poor old bunch of Cornwall's finest can improve matters. Something that, er, never seems to work for us is having long, earnest discussions about technicalities...or practising...
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Wow, three threads in a row that are about playing in sessions. Amazing!
I've experienced exactly what you're talking about. I don't know that there's a solution. If it's an open session, then ambiguous endings are going to happen. Practicing together is the only solution, which is not a session, so maybe some of the regulars who know each other can arrange to get together for that purpose. I'm sure that would congeal things a bit. Granted, I'm a wee novice, but I'm still a musician, and that just seems common sense to me. I may stand to be corrected, however, and I expect that will happen here.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
That would be someone else draws out, or alternatively someone else else draws draws out out....
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Listen to tracks on Spiro's latest album ("Lightbox") to hear precision finishing of sets - and it's done without studio "assistance".
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Sorry, we crossed.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
With another tune.......
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I dont know whether this is what's happening in your session, Steve, but the mechanics of what you're describing happen a lot, in many sessions.
Often the cause seems to be (something that has other effects as well as ruining endings) a sort of false modesty - as if to say, I'll just stop here, no bold finish, let's not make it too slick, it might look as if it matters, or is important, or we're making a statement or something.
If you can do it, I think one way round this is to end on a *marginally* longer, *marginally* quieter and smoother note. Sounds 'inoffensive' and suitably modest but doesn't wreck the end either. I reckon one player doing that, quietly and unobtrusively, could start to influence the whole session without it ever needing to be mentioned out loud.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Oh, and for goodness' sake, stop *slowing down* at the end, ya Cornish ponces, ya!
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Don't you all play exactly as written in the dots?
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I'll second that: think of another tune with a solid ending and play it at the end. Obviously what you think is a cracking set does not have a cracking finish. Maybe you could change the order, or play the first tune again?
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by gam
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Yeah, I know, that slowing down...it makes up for all the speeding up we do in the middle of the set. At least we can say we started and finished at the same speed.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
We're all completely illiterate in Cornwall. Dots wouldn't mean a thing to us. It's trouble enough taking the straws out of our teeth to play...
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I can see it now ... you've been out for a day's fishing in a small boat ... just getting your land legs back ... and then the swaying tempos and the speeding up and slowing down kick in ...
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
You have teeth? I never knew that!
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
He needz iz teeth to chew ze cider.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by billiamconkey
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I don't know if it is really false modesty Ethical Blend. Look at the way these two behave at the end of (what I think was) a brilliant performance.
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_215_1_brid_harper_and_danny_omahoney/
That looks like genuine modesty to me, what do you think?
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Bernie 29
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Ah, but you're into dangerous territory there, Bernie. That was a performance, on a stage. People behave differently in sessions. People behave differently in performance as well, but I think there are themes that recur for each type of setting. And I think there's the tendency, in sessions, almost to scupper the ending in a sort of throwaway, hurried mess that says 'There, that wasn't that great really, was it? No big deal.'
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Oh yes, it was definitely a performance, my point is that even when you put them up on a stage like that, traditional musicians can behave with a charming modesty and lack of pretentiousness.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Bernie 29
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
We just stop playing.......often even at the same time.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by minijackpot
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I like the indecisive mush, such is the organic messiness of life.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Well, if the "charming modesty", when applied to sessions, leads to an "indecisive mush" of an ending ... why not go the whole hog, and have the whole set as an indecisive mush, arising out of charming modesty? If it's good for the ending, you could have that same superior music throughout the whole evening if you really tried.
At which point, I might be likely to make an organic mess.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I attempt to end every set with a theatrical flourish of the fiddle followed by a backflip directly back into my seat while crying "Huzzah!"
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
...but usually it's just a big old swampy mess.
No, not really, we usually end at the same time. We borrowed this thing from Bluegrass. If we hup or nod or nothing, there's another tune coming. If you're the set starter and you're done, you raise your foot a teeny bit off the ground and hold it until someone else sees, then we know you're done, so we'll all play the last note long and everyone feels like we stopped at the same time and we've earned a gulp of brew.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I suppose there's always that great big chord that the Scottish ceilidh bands play on the Hogmanay do on the telly. You can even put one of those at the beginning of the set too! Haven't watched that for a few years. It isn't still Andy Stewart and Moira Anderson, is it?
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Someone usually raises their foot also at our local session to indicate that this is the last time through. I would raise my foot but that is somewhat difficult if you are the piano player. I suppose I could stick my foot out to one side but that would also be awkward. Besides, I almost never play melody anyway--I just accompany the other musicians (using the term rather loosely).
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Don't you just love the times when after playing an averagely successful set, the end just goes so well that it feels as though the whole set went better than it really did. A finish that has everybody coming together and hitting a big wallop totally in tune and in time. Yes ... it does happen to us sometimes and it makes us all grin and yell afterwards (almost in disbelief!).
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Bredna
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
We typically end by drawing out the note, but we tend to let the person who started the set end it the way they want. We're all looking up when the tune comes around for what might be the end, so it's not hard to sense what the person is going to do.
We have some fun with endings, too. Every now and then one of us will play a quick Eflat note following the ending, as if by mistake. And if you do get caught playing when the others have ended, it's fun to just finish the tune with a little flourish.
For us, the main thing is that we like and respect each other, and we're all having fun when we play.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Jmbu
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
John Coltrain mentioned to Miles Davis once that he was having trouble ending his solos. Miles said, just take the horn out of your mouth.
So Steve, just take your gob iron out of your gob.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
The problem with raising the foot, blurting out "ho" (as opposed to "hup"), or doing a Three Blind Mice ending, is that it takes away some of the spontaneity of a session. Part of the fun is when someone else tacks a tune onto the end of a set, because it struck their fancy at that moment. (As well as the occasional train wreck that ensues when more than one person try that). But the point is that it's a fluid thing. It's not a performance. And if it dissolves into mush, who cares?
Most of the sessions I play in are pretty good about paying enough attention to be able to end a set fairly gracefully without anything other than maybe a nod or raised eyebrow, even though we often play tunes different numbers of times, and sometimes stretch sets on for 6 or more tunes...
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Reverend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
But the gob iron isn't always in my gob. Especially when I'm conducting.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
OK, if your session plays 'those reels that end with X' all the time and everyone knows them and knows when to stop, that's one thing. People should know their regular sets.
Doesn't anyone ever string together sets on the fly with no prior plan about where to end, so if you'd like a clean ending, you’d better make some sort of sign?
I mean, we're not out there in our feather boas, oversized Elton John sunglasses and laser light shows. We just like to have a good time and all stop playing at the same time, if possible. It creates the happy illusion that we actually know what we're doing. It amuses us and we have a good time.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
We improvise elaborate codas all the timel. It's a hoot.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Agreed. It's going to be difficult to have a clean ending, or even a clean transition, when stringing tunes rather than playing a common set within a given session. Oh well. That's part of the game, isn't it?
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I'm not quite with this ... people (SWFL, say) are suggesting that you don;t know when the set is going to end ... but, you kind of do, don't you? I mean, it just sort of feels like it's the last tune doesn't it? Admittedly, sometimes about half a second before the last note, but still ...
???
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Mostly our session ends tune sets all together with broad grins and slow reaches for our pint glasses - utterly boring I agree - that is why I have been trying to introduce James Brown type endings to our sets - where we pump out the last note, once, then twice, then three times, etc, on and on until we are all pounding away furiously on the last note .
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Llig a écrit: "We improvise elaborate codas all the time. It's a hoot."
You ain't heard nuthin 'til you've heard the bluesy ending to Da Slockit Light that our mandolin bloke has invented.
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
SWFL, I would say that probably 75% of our sets are built on the fly. Most of the time, when I start a set, I start playing a tune, and don't figure out what is coming next until maybe the last time through a tune. Sometimes not until something appears beneath my fingers. This is something that I started doing a couple years ago, when llig made a comment about letting tunes "bubble up"...
But even with this, everybody has a pretty good idea of when we're going to switch from one tune to another, usually from a glance, or an occasional "hup", or just the fact that we've played the tune a number of times already. And most of the time, people don't know what's coming next. So the transition between tunes is a bit stilted. But if you do that enough, you get pretty good at playing the "I can guess that tune in 3 notes" kind of thing, and basically keep playing, even if you don't know what's next.
The same thing works at the end of a set. Everybody knows that either the set is going to end, or another tune is going to start. So in that split second at the end of a tune, you either decide to stop, or to keep playing. And it all works out fairly gracefully, without too much hullaballoo, or insider signals. I mean, people pick up on things like body language for their signals. When we have newcomers or strangers in our sessions, we'll often communicate a bit more noticeably, by saying "one more", or "hup", or calling out the name of the next tune...
Like I said, it's pretty common in my sessions for someone to kick into another tune at the end of the set, and just keep it going, so the "leader" of the set might change a couple times during the course of the tunes, and that often leads to train wrecks, or "mushy" endings, but who cares?
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by Reverend
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
There is a solution, finish every set with the Star of Munster reel, that has a solid ending, so no more dithering or doddering (I don't think that's a word). The end will always be good
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by Fournes
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Or ... never ever ever ever finish a set with the Star of Munster. Way way way too predictable. If someone fires up that tune as the third tune in a set, they are asking for the set to be hijacked.
And talking of hijacking sets. The best way I've found to do it is to start the hijacking tune half a bar in. It has the tremendous effects of not only an interesting initial confusion, but also a way of dragging your strummer out of his comfort zone of irritatingly accenting the back beat an forcing him to accent the down beat.
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
>And talking of hijacking sets. The best way I've found to do it >is to start the hijacking tune half a bar in. It has the >tremendous effects of not only an interesting initial >confusion, but also a way of dragging your strummer out of >his comfort zone of irritatingly accenting the back beat an >forcing him to accent the down beat.
tremendous! Might I suggest this could only be improved on by shouting "Take me to Cuba!" in a bad generic foreign accent at the point of hijack.
Actually, I might start saying "take me to Cuba" whenever a set does get hijacked, accidentaly or otherwise, now that I've thought of it the idea appeals to me.
- chris
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
If it's a noisy session they might just hear you say "Take me..!!" and that could lead to a very confusing situation!
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by RichardB
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Either way it could be all right though.
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I can't plan sets (or anything else for that matter). 95% of my sets are strung together on the fly, which makes for some interesting transitions. "I don't know what I'm playing but it appears to be something in G...."
I find endings often turn into trainwrecks, with people going, "Are we playing it again, yes, no, maybe, I guess not." *crash*
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I'm reassured that ours is not a uniquely Cornish problem...or even a problem.
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
I have been told previously to stop coddling people and quit with the signs. Perhaps it's the teacher in me. I'll try to throw them to the wolves more often, I promise!
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
Give a nod to the bodhran player(s) to wind it up with a high-speed solo a la Gene Krupa.
# Posted on December 4th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: How to end the last tune in the set
If you have problems ending a set - how on earth do you manage to change tune?
The sign of a good session leader is to be able to give a signal in the tune itself, that this is the end, so even people who can't see you, know what is going on.
Always read the small print. Investments may go down as well as up. Stuff happens. The above suggestion is foolproof - but not idiot-proof.
# Posted on December 7th 2009 by geoffwright