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Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
So a pub asks me and my mates to have a session and we agree and go to the pub for what will be a weekly night out to play tunes and have fun. When we show up there were a large group of people who got word of the session and showed up to join in. We started playing tunes, as we normally would, and noticed the large group of musicians who showed up didn't know many of the tunes we were playing. When we asked them to play something, their selection of tunes were mostly chestnuts, or old standards, and the pace was considerably slower than what we were used to. We had no problem with this since we have nothing against the tunes they picked (old standards are usually great tunes) and we didn't mind playing at their pace for the tunes we asked them to start, but the bulk of the night was doing what we normally do to have fun... what we were asked to do by the pub, and a lot of those people either noodled along (something I'm not particularly fond of) or sat listening. There were a few who knew many of our tunes and played along with no problem. The next week only a few returned, but most were gone and never returned again, and I found out later, (when I stumbled onto their discussion forum,) they were quite disappointed and referred to us as "snobs" and such and complained about our session and questioned its authenticity and validity etc., much the way I've seen happen from time to time in this forum.
Case in point: On a recent thread in this forum called, "When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion....." one of the contributers wrote the following after hearing about the situation I just described:
"And I would never set up a new session based only on my own sense of what a session should be. It's best a group decision, let to evolve to some sort of consensus, at least among the players who will show up every week and carry the tunes and crack."
Besides that, there were already sessions going in the area that were perfect for this group that showed up, and that they started, so I figure the "consensus" is between myself and my mates... not a group of people we barely knew who happened to show up hoping to make the session we were asked to start as their own.
~~~
So my question is this: If you're starting a session with your friends someplace, can you not just go and do it, or is there a social responsibility to base what it is on the people who hear about it and show up to join in with you expect it to be?
Also, how many sessions around Ireland do you think the group of musicians who established the session or were asked to host it etc., based their session procedure on the visitors who happened to show up hoping to join in? Do you think the folks asked to start or host the session said something along the lines of, "Hey let's meet down at such and such and play some tunes." or "Such and such publican wants us to go have a session at his pub, so let's go." Or do you think they should have said, "We need to meet with whomever shows up to join in with us and discuss what kind of session they want it to be."
Personally I think sessions are whatever the group of folks starting or hosting them want it to be... and not what the people who heard about it and showed up hoping to join in expect it to be. When I'm among the people showing up hoping to join in, I don't expect them to or think it's their responsibility to cater to my preferences.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I personally prefer sessions to move towards the highest common denominator. If that means I have to sit out a lot of tunes that I can't play its better than listening to music that is catering to the lowest common denominator. Civil friendly atmosphere would be a welcome addition no matter what the level of tunes.
By the way Jack how did the others get word of the new session? To me that makes a big difference to how I would answer your specific question. How open was it intended to be as a session?
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Jack, are you still thinking Will advocated ~ the visitor owns the session? I see no clear evidence of this in his comments. Hopefully you are not looking to debate him again. You're free to run your session the way you want. It is up to you & your mates to decide what makes for a session. For that, it is local & matters little, if any, what gets tossed around in the international arena of an internet forum.
more from the earlier quote & I agree,
"when visiting a session, your safest bet is to listen and watch to suss out what sort of session it is and consider (1) whether or not you can contribute (rather than detract) from the tunes and crack the locals are having, and (2) whether it's the sort of session you really *want* to sit in on. Every session is different, even the same local session from one week to the next."
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
We were asked to have a session like we have at our local; the pub owner liked what she saw and wanted it duplicated in her pub. The session we started there was "open" and no different than what we did at our local; we welcomed visitors and asked them if they would like to start a tune now and then, but we didn't base the session on the people that came to join in. We were having the session that me and my mates enjoyed--the session we were asked to start, and we weren't expected to hold a meeting with the people that showed up to join in to have a meeting and establish a "consensus."
I think, "open session" just means anyone is invited to join in if they play Irish music and know tunes in common with us for the most part. I don't think it means we have to change our session to suit their tune choices and pace etc., and/or that they should expect us to cater to them.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Random, you're correct that it was Will who I took the quote from, and I think the quote speaks for itself. I'm asking a question based on the reaction to the anecdote I described on that thread and at the top of this thread, as well as the way that thread struck me in general and the questions it raised. I think the basic point here is that it's up to the people having the session as to what they want it to be, and as visitors we shouldn't expect it to cater to us or expect it to change in any way if we ask to join in.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
You have your good nights & bad nights. There is no reason to even consider anything close to consensus with players who show up & never return. Hopefully a session is ongoing & the players want to be a part of this.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Random, read through the thread and look at the general tone related to my question. I was criticized directly for assuming that the session was ours to have and lectured about how we needed to establish a "consensus" with the people that showed up to join in. There were a lot of feelings expressed that I was wrong to assume the session we were having was valid and it was characterized as a "performance" (the derogatory meaning invented in this forum), and besides that, the premise of the thread itself was suggesting that the session that person described wasn't really a "session" on account of the disappointment felt by people who went hoping to join in.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Best to you Mr. Gilder. I have to sign off. Don't let Jeremy toss this thread!
The good people at the Beach Hut have treated me nicely tonight, though the owner lost $60 on New England. The chairs are stacked neatly & I'm going to that Wi - Fi free place I call home.
Cheers,
Auburn
P.S. You do not have to answer to Miss LonelyHearts.
Peace
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
As for that session we started, it went one for several months until I couldn't stand the noise coming from punters anymore. I cancelled it on account of it being too noisy of a pub. But while it lasted we had a steady stream of visitors who were familiar with the same tunes that we were, more or less, and they could play at the same pace. It's a pity because it was a lovely pub and the owner treated us well.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
A few thoughts.
Were you paid (money or beer) for this session? Then would that imply the session should be what the pub owner wants it to be?
How did the other people know of this session? Did the owner advertise it, and as what?
Just curious...we get neither money, nor beer. As a result there are some great nights, plenty of wonderful tunes, soem very bitty nights where the tunes don't flow and also a few nights of mainly talk. No pressure to play if we don't feel like it.
What's the landlord getting out of it? People buying drinks in his pub on a slow night.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Jack, in my opinion you have one of three options:
1. Take heed of what is being told about you and try pleasing the crowd,
2. Disregard what people are saying and do as you see fit.
3. Listen to what people are saying, check if it goes along your plans/views and if not, only then disregard it.
I tried out these options in various situations in life, including sessions. I found out that the worst is the first one, the second one is good in a very short run, and the third one works best in most social situation. If these people are not someone you really want to keep happy, let them be disappointed.
Session, like any social situation, is up for grabs - if you do not drive it in direction where you want it to be, somebody else would, and not necessarily where you and your friends would see it. And still nobody would be happy, and people will anyway find something to criticize you for.
You're a snob? So be it. Some musos here call me worse names (after being quite frankly told off during one session or another), but these are not necessarily the guys I would enjoy socializing with, even less playing along with their djembes. Nurturing other people's fragile egos is an energy-consuming task and does not necessarily lead anywhere productive.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Random Notes, maybe you spend too much time analysing what's going on a writing (very long) posts about it. Shouldn't it just be about playing and enjoying the music?
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
No a session is not a democratic organisation. If you are the one running the session and turning up week in, week out then you have a right to run it as you see fit and play the tunes you want to play. Sure, have consideration for the other people visiting the session and try to be welcoming as possible but don't let them dictate the night to you.
At one session I go to we had spent the time finding the pub and setting the thing up. It is an open session but it is set up to be what we want it to be and not just a carbon copy of other sessions that might be in the area. One week early on a piano player turned up who I think knew a few of the other visitors to the session complete with her electric piano. It was a busy night but we made space and let her plug her piano in. Now I didn't hear her make this comment myself but I gather that she complained to some of the musicians that the music was too Irish and there were not enough Scottish tunes - the damned cheek. We were apparently not doing the session right.
As I said I didn't hear the comment but if I had I would have felt free to metephorically boot her out through the window.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Ooooooooh !
Am I cringing at being quoted ?
Well, yes and no.
I too am curious at the deal you struck with the landlord regarding the EVENT, let's not define it precisely as a gig or a session, was it intended purely as a showcase for yourselves, as a draw to bring in more punters, or as an attempt to set up a whole new opening and welcoming session for all lovers of the music ?
It sounds, from your ongoing description, that it certainly attracted both more punters, noisy drinking talking punters - BAD punters ! - and musicians that you considered as not good enough to play with you. Was this what the landlord was hoping for ? I'm curious to know what they thought of it all, particularly when you decided to up sticks and leave after a few months.
As Pete Seeger once said, "It's differences of opinion that make horse races.".
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
It has occurred to me that recently I tried to guide a musician towards the light of better music-making. He was a friend of a friend, a regular player in a samba band, who turned up with a bodrhan and sat with it across his lap, tapping the skin with one loosely held end of the tipper, on every beat.
On his second visit I gave him a short, 2-minute, chat on how it's usually played in ITM, the correct hold, use of the lower end of the tipper, left hand damping, etc. I did NOT say "Don't come again". I did not say "Don't play that like you are doing". He hasn't come back. I'm disappointed. I was trying to help him fit into the ethos of the session, not to ban him for not complying.
I would never argue that a session is a complete free-for-all. Having tried to make myself heard in a friends' session, against a daf player, I would argue strongly that there needs to be a consensus. However, it should still be possible to be more inclusive than divisive.
After all, we know what the word for playing with yourself is, because nobody else is good enough, even if it won't get past the filter on this forum.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I agree fully the OP and with NCFA.>> a session is not a democratic organisation. If you are the one running the session and turning up week in, week out then you have a right to run it as you see fit and play the tunes you want to play. Sure, have consideration for the other people visiting the session and try to be welcoming as possible but don't let them dictate the night to you.<<
>>So my question is this: If you're starting a session with your friends someplace, can you not just go and do it, >>
Yes of course you can , ridiculous for anyone to suggest otherwise.
>> is there a social responsibility to base what it is on the people who hear about it and show up to join in with you expect it to be?<<
Absolutely not.
<<Also, how many sessions around Ireland do you think the group of musicians who established the session or were asked to host it etc., based their session procedure on the visitors who happened to show up hoping to join in? >>
None, or very few. Beginner session perhaps? or sessions without a core of regulars.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I agree with pete, and I think it applies in a lot of situations;
>> it should still be possible to be more inclusive than divisive.>>
As far as consensus goes, thats a very interesting word and concept yes I agree but a very important part of consensus making is that sometimes members need to think less of them selves and more of the group. So for example;
A group of people wish to take a decision, one member feels very strongly that he course of action propounded by the rest is a bad mistake and will not under any circumstances agree. What does the group do? Either they decided to agree, or put aside their own views, with the 1 outstander, where upon consensus is achieved or they dont; no consensus.
Or the group splits up and consensus is achieved with the smaller group/s. or the 1 outstander puts aside his reservations and goes along with the group.
Consensus building can be a long drawn out exhausting process. IMO it is a process rarely engaged in due to these factors. More often we have democracy, or dictatorship. [democracy being dictatorship of the masses.]
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Aye, Ali, I remember the piano player. That was me who heard her comment about too much Irish music. Seems to be a common problem. A few days ago a border piper gave me grief about playing too many Irish tunes (among other things). This is a guy who is a regular at the session in question but is barely tolerated by the session leaders for having an attitude, for playing out of time more than he's in time, dropping beats, and having the most out of tune set of border pipes in the world. This session sees itself as a very open, friendly session, which is why this bloke is tolerated at all whereas at other places he'd be shown the door (though one of the session leaders says if the guy treats me like that again, the session will get a lot less friendly for him, as that's just not on). It's in a great pub though with great people, so it's always a laugh even if it's not a hard driving Irish tune session.
I'd agree with everyone above that a session is what the regulars or session leaders, if there are any, want it to be. If I'm a visitor I usually try to hang back and only start tunes when asked until I determine whether it's cool, or not, to start tunes when I want and assess what sorts of tunes I should try to play. If it's a session like what I am imagining Phantom Button's, you don't want to start an old warhorse but you don't want to be too radical and start something you're not sure people will know. Or I don't. If I'm playing with a group of really hot sh*t players I *hate* soloing tunes and get a bit panicked when it happens. So there is a lot of politics that goes on!
It annoys me when visitors to a session think "open session" means they can do whatever they want whenever they want to do it. No. It's not like that.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Pete, as I said, the publican asked us to duplicate the session we have at our local. Yes, they paid us, but I don't think being paid means it's not a session, or that it's a "performance" (derogatory meaning invented in this forum.) The session we do at our local is whatever the people who are hosting it want it to be. We have rotating hosts at our local, but the publican at this pub wanted just us. The noisy punters were there from the start and not a result of the session. I don't know why exactly the publican wanted us, or what she hoped would happen, but I can assume she just liked the idea. She advertised the session on her website and I made some posters for her pub. I'm sure this is how the people who came to claim the session as "theirs" found out about it. They didn't succeed of course, but other musicians who did happen to know tunes we were playing and could play at the same pace continued to come back every week. The only reason I brought up this story is because your thread reminded me of it.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
One thing is for sure PB, and I'm sure you are aware of this, but a session will never last or be satisfying if there are regularly one group of players that are a fair bit better than another set. Visitors are great and can be accommodated easily but playing with a group of players who are either seasoned and static or just not of a decent standard simply will not work. Unfortunately the better players normally get labeled as snobs or up their own @r$es but I gave up worrying about that long ago.
The pub you describe needs two sessions IMO, one for a smaller group of like minded players and one for intermediate/beginner. I certainly won't get into the session/performance issue but a session will only work long term if there are folk playing for themselves and their mates AND enjoying it, primarily in an environment where the regulars like what's going on.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I've seen sessions work where there's a 'slow session' or a 'tune-learning' session for the first hour, and then full-tilt until close when the hour is up.
I like that idea, because it brings novices into the tradition, still has an outlet to challenge the experienced players, and gives the novices a level to aspire to. Eventually, some of the novices will rise to that level. If everyone knows the arrangement in advance, I doubt you'll have a problem.
I think a scene where you have a tight-knit group of hot players but no intermediates and no novices in the community is not a healthy and sustainable arrangement.
By the same token, if you constantly play at the least common denominator, and never 'open the throttle,' so to speak, then no one is going to get any better.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
"I think a scene where you have a tight-knit group of hot players but no intermediates and no novices in the community is not a healthy and sustainable arrangement."
I wouldn't entirely agree. Novices may enjoy visiting our session and joining in with a few tunes but it is highly unlikely they would like to come every week if they want to be involved. The same applies to many sessions. Intermediate players (for the want of a better word) should be able to play in most sessions. A willingness to keep learning and improving is important to any session whatever the level IMO, but the better the standard the more important it is.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Well said. You need outlets for both. Having been there, done that, with being intermediate (okay, still am, really)/beginner-ish in a place with a tight knit group of hot players and feeling as if there is no place to go and like you definitely shouldn't be there really sucks. If it's the only Irish session in town, it sucks even more. You can understand where the hot players are coming from and why they don't want to be dragging you along, but it doesn't mitigate the suck. I've also been there done that in places where they are always playing to the lowest common denominator, same tunes, same pace, week in and week out. No life, no energy, no inspiration. That sucks too.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Phantom Button - I don't understand why this is phrased as an "either one or the other" proposition. A lot of ebb and flow can happen in 2 to 4 hours of a session. It seems to me you covered all the bases allowing folks to call a few tunes, and at the same time playing with your friends tunes and tempos you enjoy. Most players obviously know you in SF and I assume know that a session you are in is going to be high-end (for lack of a better phrase) I doubt very much you are going to change your approach to a session after all these years regardless of what anybody says here. So, why even bother fretting about it now? Unless you are searching for validation here (unlikely - not your style) or there is some bit of unfinished argument or opinion you wish to put an exclamation point on?
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
It seems that no matter what you do you're going to cause offense or at least cause someone to find offense for what ever bloody reason. Best to plough your own furrow Phantom.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
if its a closed session, or invite only, then fine.
but if a visitor asks to sit in, and you agree, then you should be at least a little inclusive.
i remember my first few times. this includes traipsing all over the place to go to different sessions, sometimes the travelling involved was longer than the actual session.
i had some good times, and found a few sessions that i still visit regularly.
but i also had some bad nights
eg
i met a player who invited me to his session a 2-3hr round trip from where i live.
i went to this session, sat in.... and didnt know one tune played...fine i thought, these people are years ahead of me...
also i wasn't asked to start a set.
then a couple of hours later another (intermediate, like me) visiting musician joins, after a little chat with the leader, the next set that was started up by the leader was something like maid behind the bar/cooleys. ha!
another session felt quite similar; 3 players enjoying themselves in a non inclusive way, no tunes that i recognized. no offer to start a set.
it eventually transpired that none of them usually played there, they had been asked to cover the session as the regular leaders were on vacation. so it wasn't their session, yet they were still treating it as their own little party.
i had other experiences like this.
sadly, i have eventually developed a little arrogance.
a session may sometimes include; 3 hours travelling + fuel, 3 hours sitting politey tapping your foot, a bellyful of bar priced drinks
do you really think its reasonable that visitors should invest their time and money into simply watching you whoop it up with your mates?
i gave up on that after a few weeks.
now if i visit a new session, i'll do all the right, polite things....but if it eventually feels like i'm on the outside, musically (and perhaps socially) i'll start a few of my own sets anyway.
i go to sessions to play; and listen and talk and laugh of course; but definately to play.
and if you don't let me join your party, i'll do my own thing. what do you expect?
if you just want to have a giggle with your mates, say "no" to all visitors, dont advertise it as a session, or play in your garage.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
"Personally I think sessions are whatever the group of folks starting or hosting them want it to be... " ~ PB
Yes, any group activity needs a heart, a focus, and that is usually the people who are putting the time and energy into the event, in this case you and a few others, the core group. Visitors can choose to be a part of that or not, or go off and start something themselves. You were gracious in giving them some time, but hey, it's your session and you and your mates got together to produce something for yourselves, with a reasonable welcome for others. That's the only way it will end up with a solid identity, something people can see as for them, or not... Those who come as 'guests' should realize that the session has a character based on the needs of the core group who start and maintain it. So it takes some effort to take on the repertoire of that core group and get into their grove, your grove. That's the challenge, take it or leave it, or start your own.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Re: Helpful Suggestions for Session Newbies
You can always tell if someone is gonna be good. There's something about their eagerness, their energy, their open minds. Maybe not the first time you meet them, but the third or fourth, when they have noticeably got a lot better in just a few short weeks. I enjoy few things more than playing with these types.
I always give beginners the benefit of the doubt and it never troubles me at all if they make session etiquette faux pars. Just so long as they are not obnoxious people. What's important is that they improve. If they are improving, I'll give them all the attention they want.
Stop improving though ... plateaux out ... and I'll quickly lose interest.
And the best thing is when they do overtake you (I'm not comfortable with the "better than" thing) in their understanding of the music, and then the onus is shifted to yourself to keep improving, lest they lose interest in you.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I'm of the opinion that visitors should always be made welcome at sessions, with the exception of novice percussion players and pop chord players, providing they themselves are friendly.
The session described by PB is very unlikely to last though.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I think you should pay more attention to a number of things and then your session will go more smoothly
1. Remember to change your trousers appropriately.
2. Make sure everyone is wearing the correct wig glue (I reccomend SyrupStik).
3. Make random chit chat about your hot water bottle collections. See if anyone has any that used to belong to Matt Munro or Niki Lauda.
4. Get your butler or servant boy to fetch glasses of Southern Comfort with gay abandon.
5. I beleive eating the rich is very popular just now so send out for a Rupert Murdock or Richard Branson steak or two (but make sure it's kosher/ hallal).
Lastly help the newbies (horrrid phrase) tune up their trumpets and Hammond organs.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Ahyup. Y'all said it already.
It's hard to judge a situation by one side, but that's what we do on here, and that's OK. (I feel like Stuart Smally)
My friend Dave and I have a saying: "We brake for beginners." ...but it doesn't take long to find the accelerator again.
That's what you do, yes? Pass it on, but as part of the deal, do no damage to the session quality while learning? If you must, have a different night or session for slow all the time, or common, or whatever your/their beef may be. Why wouldn't any beginner want to soak up a higher level if play if possible?
We try to accommodate everyone. I teach tunes to people mid-week at a kitchen session so we can fly on session day. We love visitors, we're friendly, country folks, but I know how it is in the big cultural city there. Nice problem to have.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
yaalhouse brings up a good point. Fussy tempers aside, nothing ruins a good time like the dreaded ailment known as 'session ass'. (that's 'session arse' for some)
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
"So a pub asks me and my mates to have a session and we agree and go to the pub for what will be a weekly night out to play tunes and have fun.
~~~
So my question is this: If you're starting a session with your friends someplace, can you not just go and do it, or is there a social responsibility to base what it is on the people who hear about it and show up to join in with you expect it to be?"
December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Advice on putting together a session?
"I started our session 10 years ago and the first couple of years weren't always fun. Don't expect too much right away but....
IMO the vital ingredients are.......
Two decent lead players who share at least two hours of materiel, if not, as Will pointed out, kitchen sessions until you're ready - no dots at the session, no decent players will join a session where people read from the dots.
Ask the landlord in the most likely looking pub if you can play on his quietest night of the week, then he has the least to lose it it doesn't prove popular. I did this and our session night is now the pubs busiest night with the exception of some Saturdays.
Try and add at least couple of new tunes every week to keep yourself fresh.
Good luck."
July 26th 2009 by bogman
Re: Advice on putting together a session?
"Some other pointers that I might add:
• Discuss with the venue what a session actually is. (It's not a free performance. It's really for the musicians, although, you hope that the punters enjoy it too. You will often spend as much time talking as you do playing. It's not a free-for-all jam session, etc.)
• Get to know the pub manager and staff. Support their establishment, even when you're not playing.
• Tip well. If the staff is glad to have you there, life will go much smoother. But if you're seen as an annoyance or hinderance to the staff, you won't be there for long."
July 26th 2009 by Reverend
The question was by someone with little (or no) experience starting sessions. So, it may not apply directly to the session in the OP. The basics, though, might help get the ball rolling for any new session.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
i think your only choice is to close your session, or quote-unquote, "close" it, meaning, make it officially "closed," but sub-rosa open to people willing to follow the real rules of quality sessioning (as opposed to the american, usually middlling-player-american, fantasy of "sessionsareforeveryoneandeveryonegetstostartwhatevertheywantwhenevertheywant." when i say the "real" rules of quality sessioning, i'm not talking about, your longstanding local where the footing of give-and-take is already set by long practice. i mean, walking in to a quality session that you don't know. and in ireland as well as the u.s., the rule is, follow-the-leader(s). unless it becomes clear to you that the footing is otherwise, when entering a strange session the rule is--- the anchors choose the tunes and set the pace and beat, unless they give you the nod to choose or start something. and if you don't know the repertoire or the pace/beat is out of your purview, you sit and listen politely. and maybe learn something.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
On behalf of all "middling" Americans - ouch.
And yet no amount of cynicism will knock off my rose tinted glasses that will always try to see this as a community of musicians sharing a common love of a specific genre of music.
Sorry Ceemonster, I understand what you are saying, but I always try and at least begin with the assumption that everyone is welcome and there to do the same thing - play Irish music. I guess it's like that caste system in India - all are welcome as long as they know their place in the society...
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
A session is a conversation. So it is no surprise that these conversations are on the losing end of civil discourse, like everything else in society.
You don't pull up a chair at a table in a coffee shop and loudly interject your opinions without listening to what the others are saying. You don't dominate, especially when you really don't know what you are talking about. You don't use baby talk. Listen and learn.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
yes, a session is a conversation, and as such, it doesnt involve the person with the largest vocabulary dictating what happens; or doing all the talking until they decide someone else should be allowed to speak.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
by the way dont you actually enjoy helping people along with this stuff?
i remember sitting next to a beginner who nervously played a single tune, and afterwards i i told her and showed her the gist of a good tune to play after it.the next time, she played the 2 tunes together, and i felt a little bit pleased that i'd passed something on.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Bogman writes: "The session described by PB is very unlikely to last though."
The session at the Plough has lasted 35 years, we began hosting sessions there in 1988, the rotating hosts concept began around 1998.
~~~
Mrs Meek writes: "a session may sometimes include; 3 hours travelling + fuel, 3 hours sitting politey tapping your foot, a bellyful of bar priced drinks... do you really think its reasonable that visitors should invest their time and money into simply watching you whoop it up with your mates?"
Do you really think it's reasonable that when people have sessions they should determine how it proceeds based on whomever traveled the furthest to get there? As I said, we always include whomever wants to join in, i.e. invite them to start tunes etc., but we don't cater to them... they didn't start the session, they weren't asked to host the session... we were. But this does strike at the heat of my query: is a session social responsibility, or a night out with your friends playing tunes. I think it's the latter, and I think most sessions I've visited in Ireland are certainly that, and that's how I approached those sessions even though I traveled all the way from San Francisco. Yes, that's a long and expensive journey for me, and I often sat listening or with my instrument in my lap, but I never expected them to cater to me regardless of how far I traveled or how expensive it was.
~~~
Atahualpa Quigley writes: "There was a time, not so very long ago, when the Plough session didn't *Belong* to anyone."
I happen to know the people who were the first to have sessions at the Plough, and I doubt they were basing the way they proceeded on visitors; they were just having a night of tunes at the pub. That was 1975, what were you doing in 1975? Were you at the Plough playing Irish music? The first session I ever attended there was in 1980 and they weren't basing it on visitors then either as far as I could tell.
When a session started down the street it attracted most of the local players who were usually at the Plough, and that session had paid hosts and was definitely their session. That was 1988 and the session at the Plough nearly fizzled out as a result. That's when the publican approached us and asked us to start hosting sessions. We did, and musicians returned to make the Plough a strong Sunday night session once again. That lasted 10 years and then when the publican suggested expanding the sessions to include Tuesdays, I suggested that we try it with rotating hosts. This improved the overall sessions because it invited diversity. Why diversity? Because the different hosts are allowed to have whatever kind of session they want and aren't beholding to any imagined session code established by individuals in the outback of Irish music living in random locations throughout the US and Europe etc.
The decision was also made to have one Tuesday a month be dedicated to learners. This way if people feel they aren't ready to participate in a regular session, they have somewhere to go that IS based on the visitor and catering to the people who feel they aren't able to keep up with the tunes and pace of the regular sessions.
~~~
Regarding that session I described at the start of this thread: there were already sessions in the area that were established by this group of musicians who came in intending to claim our session as their own.
We did invite people to start tunes and some of them had no problem with our tune choices and pace and continued to come back until I cancelled it due to noise in the pub several months later.
(Please make sure you read what I said at the top before responding... I'm hoping I don't need to repeat myself throughout the thread.)
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
There was a historian being interviewed on NPR Sunday, who had a wonderful insight: "The sad thing about history, is that everyone has a good reason." I don't happen to agree with all of your version of the history of the Plough. I might agree with some of it.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I'll say again: there was a time, not so very long ago, when the session at the Plough didn't *belong* to anyone. It worked without a ringer, or a host, or mere host/greeter, or even a "host"/Gauleiter. It worked fine this way too.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
hey PB. if i travel a fair distance and waste time and money on something which i previously had good reason to believe was at least a slightly inclusive event, and i end up feeling like a spectator, then i will do my own thing.
btw in situations like this i will deliberatly play stuff that hardly anyone knows. after a while it becomes fun.
if a session is not inclusive, then its effectilvely a closed session. as such it should not be touted at a session but merely as "free live irish(etc) music", and if people ask to join,they should de declined.
btw2 in your initial description, you talk of a session that on one night had a whole group turn up en mass to join in on your thing. it seems to me you automatically had the potential for factions here. it would have been wise to decline their joining in.
btw3 unfortunately discussion threads are also conversations,
as such the OP cannot control/guide other peoples postings, and the subsequent responses to them which may not have anything to do with your OP.
which means that although you started it, it may develop in a way that you didnt plan.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Jack, I don't see anything to discuss here. The pub owner hired you to setup a session and recreate what he/she experienced at your other session. Exactly the same thing happened to me here in San Diego with Thornton's. It's your party, you can do whatever you want to meet the expectations of the pub owner. Those other players should make their own arrangements and setup their own session rather than wasting time and energy about how the didn't feel welcome, that's their problem, not yours.
Maybe I'm also a snob, but I'm with Jack on this in how I host sessions. We love having new players, but its not a learning session. While we're happy to have new players start a few sets, we're not going to bring the whole level down for the entire night, they should be there with their recording devices and listening as much as playing.
Anyone who shows up randomly to a session I host and tries to mold it into their image is not going to enjoy the conversation I'm going to have with them, and most likely will never return, which is fine by me. Thankfully, this has only happened a few times in 10 years.
I can say that we have an excellent track record with visiting musicians, I'm sure many of the people on this board have been to our session at the Ould Sod as a visitor and have had a good time. Even non-regular locals who occasionally show up are welcome, they just have to be respectful and nice to the other players, that's all I ask.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
That doesn't sound like snobbery to me, Michael. Sounds like most sessions I've ever been to.
However, I've yet to meet this fabled newbie who shows up to high level sessions demanding everyone cater to them and play tunes like The Butterfly at 1/3 speed all night either.
Funny how the new players AND the old geezers create such remarkable preconceived notions of each other...
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
>hey PB. if i travel a fair distance and waste time and money >on something which i previously had good reason to believe >was at least a slightly inclusive event, and i end up feeling >like a spectator, then i will do my own thing.
>btw in situations like this i will deliberatly play stuff that hardly >anyone knows. after a while it becomes fun
I'm afraid I don't sympathise with this at all, Mrs M.
Sometimes "good reason" is actually mistaken after all. Anywayone here gone through life without being "reliably informed" of something which actually turned out not to be right?
I'm with you in being dissapointed in not being included. I'd like to think that wouldn't happen at our session. But being p*ssed off at other people at the sesison doesn't give you the green light to act like a complete arsehole.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
One thing to bear in mind is that different witnesses to the same event frequently recall the events in a somehwat different manner. This will be particulalry so whent he witnesses have some sort of stake in what took place.
e.g. I think our regular session is freindly and welcoming. I try to talk to people I have not seen before and make them welcome. If I see someone with a fiddle case at the bar, I'll go over and ask them if they want to sit in etc. I think many visitors have felt welcome at our session. However that is no guarantee that every visitor has felt the same. Sometimes we have very busy nights with a whole bunch of strangers, maybe the regulars didn't get the chance to speak to everyone individually. Possibly one of the strangers wasn't with the larger group of visitors, and no-one realised this and they were left to feel isolated and uninvolved. The main group of strangers might have been asked for a few tunes and the individual ignored, as mistakenly thought to be part of that crowd. Maybe few regulars were there and most of the session was visitors or a particualr night, all of whom assume that everyone else knows eacgh other. Maybe it was a particularly streesful time at work for the regulars and they just didn't put themselves out to go and start conversations with strangers on a particualr might. Maybe no-one saw the visitor. etc. etc. etc.
For all I know there might well be a fair few folk out there who visited us one night and feel they got the cold shoulder. And none of this takes into account the behaviour of the visitor. Did they introduce themselves to anyone? Strike up a conversation?
It is perfectly possible for different, equally reasonably, people to have quite different impressions of how freindly a session is.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
No Cause & Silverspear:
I sympathise with people who describe a session as "too irish/scottishwhatever". I thinkt hat is a reasonable criticism to make as long as it is expressing a personal taste rather than a value judgement, or laying down guidelines as to what that session should be.
There are plenty of sessions that are too scottish for me. I might enjoy listening, but I probably wouldn't feel at home playing in them. I certainly wouldn't expect, or even want, them to change.
And SS, you are not a beginer other in the sense that evreyone is. Although I dislike lables like beginer, intermediate and advanced. I don't know how anyone evr has the kneck to put themselves down for "advanced" anything
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
One of my friends and I thought using rock climbing grades for musicians (and tunes) was a funnier and more accurate way to describe ability than beginner/intermediate/advanced. I'm a VS player most of the time and on the odd really good day an HVS player. Those of you who don't know anything about UK rock climbing grades won't have a clue what that means.
I have been to many sessions that were "too Scottish" but if the people in them are mates with whom I can have a bit of banter, I can happily slag them for playing "all this Scottish pish" and enjoy the night anyway (c.f. the slagging thread). Which is different from someone, like the piano player Al described or the border piper I encountered, being a tool and whining that you're playing too much of whatever.
I admit, I'm not always the best at talking to visitors, especially if they are across the room from me. If they're not super chatty, I have a hard time engaging with them, being naturally shy myself (really!). At the very least though, I will try to goad a visitor into starting a tune.
No matter how ticked off you are at being an outsider at a session you traveled a zillion miles to be at, starting a bunch of tunes no one knows for the sake of being an arse is not going to help your case. It's a pet peeve of mine when visitors come into a session that's not theirs and get really aggressive about starting tunes, especially tunes which don't engage the regulars. I'm not likely to start a conversation with you as more than likely I'm thinking, "Who is this tw*t?"
"However, I've yet to meet this fabled newbie who shows up to high level sessions demanding everyone cater to them and play tunes like The Butterfly at 1/3 speed all night either."
Jusa, I have. On more than one occasion I have been at what was supposed to be a fairly high-ish level session (for lack of a better term) and had newbies show up who were really opportunistic with starting tunes -- any available break, they were in -- and it was usually the Butterfly or Far From Home or whatever at 1/3 speed. OhmygodIhavetocontributetothemusicalprocessandgetmytunein.
(and it's not always the US where this happens ;))
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Silver Spear - sounds like you ran into an empowered pack of them all at once! Tough going to squeeze in a set of your liking when the pack is "gap jumping" (i.e. firing off tunes the moment another set ends).
Of course it is well documented that we Americans don't know what to do with ourselves if there is a mili-second of down time. It always rush, rush, rush. Get the next tune in for God's sake before anyone has a chance to speak!
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Mrs. Meek if you do any of the things you describe, at a session you regret being at, that would constitute a performance. Although not a musical performance. Certainly not sessioning.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
PB, missed a few posts there but the session I was referring to is the one described in the first paragraph of your original post. Don't know what that has to with the Plough, wherever and whatever that is.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
If it is your local session and you are the coordinator and/or the leader of the session or maybe even just the person who reminds everyone of upcoming sessions through e-mail messages and/or telephone calls then you have the right and the responsibility to attempt to at least guide the "flow" of the session no matter who or what shows up for the session.
However, if you are a visitor at an out-of-town or out-of-state session, then you should make a genuine effort to fit in and play music with the local musicians instead of against them. If you cannot fit in and play with the local musicians, then maybe you should try to just sit there quietly, sip your drink, and listen.
My comments are based on my own experiences playing at the local sessions here and in other towns and other states since 1995. Yes, I have been on both sides of this situation. If I am reasonably certain that my attempts to play along with the other musicians won't contribute to the session and will only damage it, then I will gladly sit there quietly and listen instead of trying to play my instrument. I would prefer to avoid wrecking, disrupting, or destroying a session.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
If you are a visitor from out-of-town or out-of-state and the local musicians are gracious enough, kind enough, and hospitable enough to invite or allow you to sit in with them at their local session, you should reciprocate by at least trying to fit in (if you can) and play with them instead of against them. This does include not complaining because they either play too many or not enough types of tunes which you like or don't like to play. Yes you should be hospitable to visitors but there are limits to what you should and/or or should not do.
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
If you are a player of Scandinavian tunes, please, please don't drop in on an glaringly obvious unabashedly Irish session and play zillions of Scandinavian tunes that none of the regulars has a hope of knowing for over half an hour non-stop.
Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
So a pub asks me and my mates to have a session and we agree and go to the pub for what will be a weekly night out to play tunes and have fun. When we show up there were a large group of people who got word of the session and showed up to join in. We started playing tunes, as we normally would, and noticed the large group of musicians who showed up didn't know many of the tunes we were playing. When we asked them to play something, their selection of tunes were mostly chestnuts, or old standards, and the pace was considerably slower than what we were used to. We had no problem with this since we have nothing against the tunes they picked (old standards are usually great tunes) and we didn't mind playing at their pace for the tunes we asked them to start, but the bulk of the night was doing what we normally do to have fun... what we were asked to do by the pub, and a lot of those people either noodled along (something I'm not particularly fond of) or sat listening. There were a few who knew many of our tunes and played along with no problem. The next week only a few returned, but most were gone and never returned again, and I found out later, (when I stumbled onto their discussion forum,) they were quite disappointed and referred to us as "snobs" and such and complained about our session and questioned its authenticity and validity etc., much the way I've seen happen from time to time in this forum.
Case in point: On a recent thread in this forum called, "When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion....." one of the contributers wrote the following after hearing about the situation I just described:
"And I would never set up a new session based only on my own sense of what a session should be. It's best a group decision, let to evolve to some sort of consensus, at least among the players who will show up every week and carry the tunes and crack."
Besides that, there were already sessions going in the area that were perfect for this group that showed up, and that they started, so I figure the "consensus" is between myself and my mates... not a group of people we barely knew who happened to show up hoping to make the session we were asked to start as their own.
~~~
So my question is this: If you're starting a session with your friends someplace, can you not just go and do it, or is there a social responsibility to base what it is on the people who hear about it and show up to join in with you expect it to be?
Also, how many sessions around Ireland do you think the group of musicians who established the session or were asked to host it etc., based their session procedure on the visitors who happened to show up hoping to join in? Do you think the folks asked to start or host the session said something along the lines of, "Hey let's meet down at such and such and play some tunes." or "Such and such publican wants us to go have a session at his pub, so let's go." Or do you think they should have said, "We need to meet with whomever shows up to join in with us and discuss what kind of session they want it to be."
Personally I think sessions are whatever the group of folks starting or hosting them want it to be... and not what the people who heard about it and showed up hoping to join in expect it to be. When I'm among the people showing up hoping to join in, I don't expect them to or think it's their responsibility to cater to my preferences.
So what do YOU think?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I personally prefer sessions to move towards the highest common denominator. If that means I have to sit out a lot of tunes that I can't play its better than listening to music that is catering to the lowest common denominator. Civil friendly atmosphere would be a welcome addition no matter what the level of tunes.
By the way Jack how did the others get word of the new session? To me that makes a big difference to how I would answer your specific question. How open was it intended to be as a session?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Donough
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Jack, are you still thinking Will advocated ~ the visitor owns the session? I see no clear evidence of this in his comments. Hopefully you are not looking to debate him again. You're free to run your session the way you want. It is up to you & your mates to decide what makes for a session. For that, it is local & matters little, if any, what gets tossed around in the international arena of an internet forum.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
~
more from the earlier quote & I agree,
"when visiting a session, your safest bet is to listen and watch to suss out what sort of session it is and consider (1) whether or not you can contribute (rather than detract) from the tunes and crack the locals are having, and (2) whether it's the sort of session you really *want* to sit in on. Every session is different, even the same local session from one week to the next."
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
We were asked to have a session like we have at our local; the pub owner liked what she saw and wanted it duplicated in her pub. The session we started there was "open" and no different than what we did at our local; we welcomed visitors and asked them if they would like to start a tune now and then, but we didn't base the session on the people that came to join in. We were having the session that me and my mates enjoyed--the session we were asked to start, and we weren't expected to hold a meeting with the people that showed up to join in to have a meeting and establish a "consensus."
I think, "open session" just means anyone is invited to join in if they play Irish music and know tunes in common with us for the most part. I don't think it means we have to change our session to suit their tune choices and pace etc., and/or that they should expect us to cater to them.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Random, you're correct that it was Will who I took the quote from, and I think the quote speaks for itself. I'm asking a question based on the reaction to the anecdote I described on that thread and at the top of this thread, as well as the way that thread struck me in general and the questions it raised. I think the basic point here is that it's up to the people having the session as to what they want it to be, and as visitors we shouldn't expect it to cater to us or expect it to change in any way if we ask to join in.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
You have your good nights & bad nights. There is no reason to even consider anything close to consensus with players who show up & never return. Hopefully a session is ongoing & the players want to be a part of this.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Random, read through the thread and look at the general tone related to my question. I was criticized directly for assuming that the session was ours to have and lectured about how we needed to establish a "consensus" with the people that showed up to join in. There were a lot of feelings expressed that I was wrong to assume the session we were having was valid and it was characterized as a "performance" (the derogatory meaning invented in this forum), and besides that, the premise of the thread itself was suggesting that the session that person described wasn't really a "session" on account of the disappointment felt by people who went hoping to join in.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Best to you Mr. Gilder. I have to sign off. Don't let Jeremy toss this thread!
The good people at the Beach Hut have treated me nicely tonight, though the owner lost $60 on New England. The chairs are stacked neatly & I'm going to that Wi - Fi free place I call home.
Cheers,
Auburn
P.S. You do not have to answer to Miss LonelyHearts.
Peace
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
As for that session we started, it went one for several months until I couldn't stand the noise coming from punters anymore. I cancelled it on account of it being too noisy of a pub. But while it lasted we had a steady stream of visitors who were familiar with the same tunes that we were, more or less, and they could play at the same pace. It's a pity because it was a lovely pub and the owner treated us well.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
1 Last
If you insist on a session in a pub = a public performance . . .
i.e. ~ a session is a performance, you will reap what you sow.
Peace, my friend.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
In Chico we keep saying, "Life is short, too short"
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I don't understand what you're getting at, Random.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
A few thoughts.
Were you paid (money or beer) for this session? Then would that imply the session should be what the pub owner wants it to be?
How did the other people know of this session? Did the owner advertise it, and as what?
Just curious...we get neither money, nor beer. As a result there are some great nights, plenty of wonderful tunes, soem very bitty nights where the tunes don't flow and also a few nights of mainly talk. No pressure to play if we don't feel like it.
What's the landlord getting out of it? People buying drinks in his pub on a slow night.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by minijackpot
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Jack, in my opinion you have one of three options:
1. Take heed of what is being told about you and try pleasing the crowd,
2. Disregard what people are saying and do as you see fit.
3. Listen to what people are saying, check if it goes along your plans/views and if not, only then disregard it.
I tried out these options in various situations in life, including sessions. I found out that the worst is the first one, the second one is good in a very short run, and the third one works best in most social situation. If these people are not someone you really want to keep happy, let them be disappointed.
Session, like any social situation, is up for grabs - if you do not drive it in direction where you want it to be, somebody else would, and not necessarily where you and your friends would see it. And still nobody would be happy, and people will anyway find something to criticize you for.
You're a snob? So be it. Some musos here call me worse names (after being quite frankly told off during one session or another), but these are not necessarily the guys I would enjoy socializing with, even less playing along with their djembes. Nurturing other people's fragile egos is an energy-consuming task and does not necessarily lead anywhere productive.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Janek
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Random Notes, maybe you spend too much time analysing what's going on a writing (very long) posts about it. Shouldn't it just be about playing and enjoying the music?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by amhrán
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
No a session is not a democratic organisation. If you are the one running the session and turning up week in, week out then you have a right to run it as you see fit and play the tunes you want to play. Sure, have consideration for the other people visiting the session and try to be welcoming as possible but don't let them dictate the night to you.
At one session I go to we had spent the time finding the pub and setting the thing up. It is an open session but it is set up to be what we want it to be and not just a carbon copy of other sessions that might be in the area. One week early on a piano player turned up who I think knew a few of the other visitors to the session complete with her electric piano. It was a busy night but we made space and let her plug her piano in. Now I didn't hear her make this comment myself but I gather that she complained to some of the musicians that the music was too Irish and there were not enough Scottish tunes - the damned cheek. We were apparently not doing the session right.
As I said I didn't hear the comment but if I had I would have felt free to metephorically boot her out through the window.
She has not been back and I don't care.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Ooooooooh !
Am I cringing at being quoted ?
Well, yes and no.
I too am curious at the deal you struck with the landlord regarding the EVENT, let's not define it precisely as a gig or a session, was it intended purely as a showcase for yourselves, as a draw to bring in more punters, or as an attempt to set up a whole new opening and welcoming session for all lovers of the music ?
It sounds, from your ongoing description, that it certainly attracted both more punters, noisy drinking talking punters - BAD punters ! - and musicians that you considered as not good enough to play with you. Was this what the landlord was hoping for ? I'm curious to know what they thought of it all, particularly when you decided to up sticks and leave after a few months.
As Pete Seeger once said, "It's differences of opinion that make horse races.".
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Accept མི་རྟག་པ་
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by ∅
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
It has occurred to me that recently I tried to guide a musician towards the light of better music-making. He was a friend of a friend, a regular player in a samba band, who turned up with a bodrhan and sat with it across his lap, tapping the skin with one loosely held end of the tipper, on every beat.
On his second visit I gave him a short, 2-minute, chat on how it's usually played in ITM, the correct hold, use of the lower end of the tipper, left hand damping, etc. I did NOT say "Don't come again". I did not say "Don't play that like you are doing". He hasn't come back. I'm disappointed. I was trying to help him fit into the ethos of the session, not to ban him for not complying.
I would never argue that a session is a complete free-for-all. Having tried to make myself heard in a friends' session, against a daf player, I would argue strongly that there needs to be a consensus. However, it should still be possible to be more inclusive than divisive.
After all, we know what the word for playing with yourself is, because nobody else is good enough, even if it won't get past the filter on this forum.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I agree fully the OP and with NCFA.>> a session is not a democratic organisation. If you are the one running the session and turning up week in, week out then you have a right to run it as you see fit and play the tunes you want to play. Sure, have consideration for the other people visiting the session and try to be welcoming as possible but don't let them dictate the night to you.<<
>>So my question is this: If you're starting a session with your friends someplace, can you not just go and do it, >>
Yes of course you can , ridiculous for anyone to suggest otherwise.
>> is there a social responsibility to base what it is on the people who hear about it and show up to join in with you expect it to be?<<
Absolutely not.
<<Also, how many sessions around Ireland do you think the group of musicians who established the session or were asked to host it etc., based their session procedure on the visitors who happened to show up hoping to join in? >>
None, or very few. Beginner session perhaps? or sessions without a core of regulars.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
"I agree fully the OP and with NCFA"
Well that is my street cred shot now!
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I agree with pete, and I think it applies in a lot of situations;
>> it should still be possible to be more inclusive than divisive.>>
As far as consensus goes, thats a very interesting word and concept yes I agree but a very important part of consensus making is that sometimes members need to think less of them selves and more of the group. So for example;
A group of people wish to take a decision, one member feels very strongly that he course of action propounded by the rest is a bad mistake and will not under any circumstances agree. What does the group do? Either they decided to agree, or put aside their own views, with the 1 outstander, where upon consensus is achieved or they dont; no consensus.
Or the group splits up and consensus is achieved with the smaller group/s. or the 1 outstander puts aside his reservations and goes along with the group.
Consensus building can be a long drawn out exhausting process. IMO it is a process rarely engaged in due to these factors. More often we have democracy, or dictatorship. [democracy being dictatorship of the masses.]
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Aye, Ali, I remember the piano player. That was me who heard her comment about too much Irish music. Seems to be a common problem. A few days ago a border piper gave me grief about playing too many Irish tunes (among other things). This is a guy who is a regular at the session in question but is barely tolerated by the session leaders for having an attitude, for playing out of time more than he's in time, dropping beats, and having the most out of tune set of border pipes in the world. This session sees itself as a very open, friendly session, which is why this bloke is tolerated at all whereas at other places he'd be shown the door (though one of the session leaders says if the guy treats me like that again, the session will get a lot less friendly for him, as that's just not on). It's in a great pub though with great people, so it's always a laugh even if it's not a hard driving Irish tune session.
I'd agree with everyone above that a session is what the regulars or session leaders, if there are any, want it to be. If I'm a visitor I usually try to hang back and only start tunes when asked until I determine whether it's cool, or not, to start tunes when I want and assess what sorts of tunes I should try to play. If it's a session like what I am imagining Phantom Button's, you don't want to start an old warhorse but you don't want to be too radical and start something you're not sure people will know. Or I don't. If I'm playing with a group of really hot sh*t players I *hate* soloing tunes and get a bit panicked when it happens. So there is a lot of politics that goes on!
It annoys me when visitors to a session think "open session" means they can do whatever they want whenever they want to do it. No. It's not like that.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Pete, as I said, the publican asked us to duplicate the session we have at our local. Yes, they paid us, but I don't think being paid means it's not a session, or that it's a "performance" (derogatory meaning invented in this forum.) The session we do at our local is whatever the people who are hosting it want it to be. We have rotating hosts at our local, but the publican at this pub wanted just us. The noisy punters were there from the start and not a result of the session. I don't know why exactly the publican wanted us, or what she hoped would happen, but I can assume she just liked the idea. She advertised the session on her website and I made some posters for her pub. I'm sure this is how the people who came to claim the session as "theirs" found out about it. They didn't succeed of course, but other musicians who did happen to know tunes we were playing and could play at the same pace continued to come back every week. The only reason I brought up this story is because your thread reminded me of it.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
One thing is for sure PB, and I'm sure you are aware of this, but a session will never last or be satisfying if there are regularly one group of players that are a fair bit better than another set. Visitors are great and can be accommodated easily but playing with a group of players who are either seasoned and static or just not of a decent standard simply will not work. Unfortunately the better players normally get labeled as snobs or up their own @r$es but I gave up worrying about that long ago.
The pub you describe needs two sessions IMO, one for a smaller group of like minded players and one for intermediate/beginner. I certainly won't get into the session/performance issue but a session will only work long term if there are folk playing for themselves and their mates AND enjoying it, primarily in an environment where the regulars like what's going on.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by bogman
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I've seen sessions work where there's a 'slow session' or a 'tune-learning' session for the first hour, and then full-tilt until close when the hour is up.
I like that idea, because it brings novices into the tradition, still has an outlet to challenge the experienced players, and gives the novices a level to aspire to. Eventually, some of the novices will rise to that level. If everyone knows the arrangement in advance, I doubt you'll have a problem.
I think a scene where you have a tight-knit group of hot players but no intermediates and no novices in the community is not a healthy and sustainable arrangement.
By the same token, if you constantly play at the least common denominator, and never 'open the throttle,' so to speak, then no one is going to get any better.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
"I think a scene where you have a tight-knit group of hot players but no intermediates and no novices in the community is not a healthy and sustainable arrangement."
I wouldn't entirely agree. Novices may enjoy visiting our session and joining in with a few tunes but it is highly unlikely they would like to come every week if they want to be involved. The same applies to many sessions. Intermediate players (for the want of a better word) should be able to play in most sessions. A willingness to keep learning and improving is important to any session whatever the level IMO, but the better the standard the more important it is.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by bogman
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Well said. You need outlets for both. Having been there, done that, with being intermediate (okay, still am, really)/beginner-ish in a place with a tight knit group of hot players and feeling as if there is no place to go and like you definitely shouldn't be there really sucks. If it's the only Irish session in town, it sucks even more. You can understand where the hot players are coming from and why they don't want to be dragging you along, but it doesn't mitigate the suck. I've also been there done that in places where they are always playing to the lowest common denominator, same tunes, same pace, week in and week out. No life, no energy, no inspiration. That sucks too.
Like everything else, there is a balance.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Phantom Button - I don't understand why this is phrased as an "either one or the other" proposition. A lot of ebb and flow can happen in 2 to 4 hours of a session. It seems to me you covered all the bases allowing folks to call a few tunes, and at the same time playing with your friends tunes and tempos you enjoy. Most players obviously know you in SF and I assume know that a session you are in is going to be high-end (for lack of a better phrase) I doubt very much you are going to change your approach to a session after all these years regardless of what anybody says here. So, why even bother fretting about it now? Unless you are searching for validation here (unlikely - not your style) or there is some bit of unfinished argument or opinion you wish to put an exclamation point on?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
There was a time, not so very long ago, when the Plough session didn't *Belong* to anyone.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Emily & Jusa spot on! Bogman, you too.
Quigley, did you miss the Ebay listing for a session in San Francisco? I'm kidding. It's a joke.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
It seems that no matter what you do you're going to cause offense or at least cause someone to find offense for what ever bloody reason. Best to plough your own furrow Phantom.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
if its a closed session, or invite only, then fine.
but if a visitor asks to sit in, and you agree, then you should be at least a little inclusive.
i remember my first few times. this includes traipsing all over the place to go to different sessions, sometimes the travelling involved was longer than the actual session.
i had some good times, and found a few sessions that i still visit regularly.
but i also had some bad nights
eg
i met a player who invited me to his session a 2-3hr round trip from where i live.
i went to this session, sat in.... and didnt know one tune played...fine i thought, these people are years ahead of me...
also i wasn't asked to start a set.
then a couple of hours later another (intermediate, like me) visiting musician joins, after a little chat with the leader, the next set that was started up by the leader was something like maid behind the bar/cooleys. ha!
another session felt quite similar; 3 players enjoying themselves in a non inclusive way, no tunes that i recognized. no offer to start a set.
it eventually transpired that none of them usually played there, they had been asked to cover the session as the regular leaders were on vacation. so it wasn't their session, yet they were still treating it as their own little party.
i had other experiences like this.
sadly, i have eventually developed a little arrogance.
a session may sometimes include; 3 hours travelling + fuel, 3 hours sitting politey tapping your foot, a bellyful of bar priced drinks
do you really think its reasonable that visitors should invest their time and money into simply watching you whoop it up with your mates?
i gave up on that after a few weeks.
now if i visit a new session, i'll do all the right, polite things....but if it eventually feels like i'm on the outside, musically (and perhaps socially) i'll start a few of my own sets anyway.
i go to sessions to play; and listen and talk and laugh of course; but definately to play.
and if you don't let me join your party, i'll do my own thing. what do you expect?
if you just want to have a giggle with your mates, say "no" to all visitors, dont advertise it as a session, or play in your garage.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by mrs meek
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
"Personally I think sessions are whatever the group of folks starting or hosting them want it to be... " ~ PB
Yes, any group activity needs a heart, a focus, and that is usually the people who are putting the time and energy into the event, in this case you and a few others, the core group. Visitors can choose to be a part of that or not, or go off and start something themselves. You were gracious in giving them some time, but hey, it's your session and you and your mates got together to produce something for yourselves, with a reasonable welcome for others. That's the only way it will end up with a solid identity, something people can see as for them, or not... Those who come as 'guests' should realize that the session has a character based on the needs of the core group who start and maintain it. So it takes some effort to take on the repertoire of that core group and get into their grove, your grove. That's the challenge, take it or leave it, or start your own.
That's my tuppence worth, best of luck with it.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Re: Helpful Suggestions for Session Newbies
You can always tell if someone is gonna be good. There's something about their eagerness, their energy, their open minds. Maybe not the first time you meet them, but the third or fourth, when they have noticeably got a lot better in just a few short weeks. I enjoy few things more than playing with these types.
I always give beginners the benefit of the doubt and it never troubles me at all if they make session etiquette faux pars. Just so long as they are not obnoxious people. What's important is that they improve. If they are improving, I'll give them all the attention they want.
Stop improving though ... plateaux out ... and I'll quickly lose interest.
And the best thing is when they do overtake you (I'm not comfortable with the "better than" thing) in their understanding of the music, and then the onus is shifted to yourself to keep improving, lest they lose interest in you.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by llig leahcim
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I'm of the opinion that visitors should always be made welcome at sessions, with the exception of novice percussion players and pop chord players, providing they themselves are friendly.
The session described by PB is very unlikely to last though.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by bogman
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
That was to Mrs Meek....
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by bogman
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I think you should pay more attention to a number of things and then your session will go more smoothly
1. Remember to change your trousers appropriately.
2. Make sure everyone is wearing the correct wig glue (I reccomend SyrupStik).
3. Make random chit chat about your hot water bottle collections. See if anyone has any that used to belong to Matt Munro or Niki Lauda.
4. Get your butler or servant boy to fetch glasses of Southern Comfort with gay abandon.
5. I beleive eating the rich is very popular just now so send out for a Rupert Murdock or Richard Branson steak or two (but make sure it's kosher/ hallal).
Lastly help the newbies (horrrid phrase) tune up their trumpets and Hammond organs.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Ahyup. Y'all said it already.
It's hard to judge a situation by one side, but that's what we do on here, and that's OK. (I feel like Stuart Smally)
My friend Dave and I have a saying: "We brake for beginners." ...but it doesn't take long to find the accelerator again.
That's what you do, yes? Pass it on, but as part of the deal, do no damage to the session quality while learning? If you must, have a different night or session for slow all the time, or common, or whatever your/their beef may be. Why wouldn't any beginner want to soak up a higher level if play if possible?
We try to accommodate everyone. I teach tunes to people mid-week at a kitchen session so we can fly on session day. We love visitors, we're friendly, country folks, but I know how it is in the big cultural city there. Nice problem to have.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
yaalhouse brings up a good point. Fussy tempers aside, nothing ruins a good time like the dreaded ailment known as 'session ass'. (that's 'session arse' for some)
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
"So a pub asks me and my mates to have a session and we agree and go to the pub for what will be a weekly night out to play tunes and have fun.
~~~
So my question is this: If you're starting a session with your friends someplace, can you not just go and do it, or is there a social responsibility to base what it is on the people who hear about it and show up to join in with you expect it to be?"
December 1st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Advice on putting together a session?
"I started our session 10 years ago and the first couple of years weren't always fun. Don't expect too much right away but....
IMO the vital ingredients are.......
Two decent lead players who share at least two hours of materiel, if not, as Will pointed out, kitchen sessions until you're ready - no dots at the session, no decent players will join a session where people read from the dots.
Ask the landlord in the most likely looking pub if you can play on his quietest night of the week, then he has the least to lose it it doesn't prove popular. I did this and our session night is now the pubs busiest night with the exception of some Saturdays.
Try and add at least couple of new tunes every week to keep yourself fresh.
Good luck."
July 26th 2009 by bogman
Re: Advice on putting together a session?
"Some other pointers that I might add:
• Discuss with the venue what a session actually is. (It's not a free performance. It's really for the musicians, although, you hope that the punters enjoy it too. You will often spend as much time talking as you do playing. It's not a free-for-all jam session, etc.)
• Get to know the pub manager and staff. Support their establishment, even when you're not playing.
• Tip well. If the staff is glad to have you there, life will go much smoother. But if you're seen as an annoyance or hinderance to the staff, you won't be there for long."
July 26th 2009 by Reverend
Advice on putting together a session?
July 25th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22184
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
~
The question was by someone with little (or no) experience starting sessions. So, it may not apply directly to the session in the OP. The basics, though, might help get the ball rolling for any new session.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
i think your only choice is to close your session, or quote-unquote, "close" it, meaning, make it officially "closed," but sub-rosa open to people willing to follow the real rules of quality sessioning (as opposed to the american, usually middlling-player-american, fantasy of "sessionsareforeveryoneandeveryonegetstostartwhatevertheywantwhenevertheywant." when i say the "real" rules of quality sessioning, i'm not talking about, your longstanding local where the footing of give-and-take is already set by long practice. i mean, walking in to a quality session that you don't know. and in ireland as well as the u.s., the rule is, follow-the-leader(s). unless it becomes clear to you that the footing is otherwise, when entering a strange session the rule is--- the anchors choose the tunes and set the pace and beat, unless they give you the nod to choose or start something. and if you don't know the repertoire or the pace/beat is out of your purview, you sit and listen politely. and maybe learn something.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by ceemonster
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
On behalf of all "middling" Americans - ouch.
And yet no amount of cynicism will knock off my rose tinted glasses that will always try to see this as a community of musicians sharing a common love of a specific genre of music.
Sorry Ceemonster, I understand what you are saying, but I always try and at least begin with the assumption that everyone is welcome and there to do the same thing - play Irish music. I guess it's like that caste system in India - all are welcome as long as they know their place in the society...
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
A session is a conversation. So it is no surprise that these conversations are on the losing end of civil discourse, like everything else in society.
You don't pull up a chair at a table in a coffee shop and loudly interject your opinions without listening to what the others are saying. You don't dominate, especially when you really don't know what you are talking about. You don't use baby talk. Listen and learn.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Michele Sims
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
yes, a session is a conversation, and as such, it doesnt involve the person with the largest vocabulary dictating what happens; or doing all the talking until they decide someone else should be allowed to speak.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by mrs meek
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
by the way dont you actually enjoy helping people along with this stuff?
i remember sitting next to a beginner who nervously played a single tune, and afterwards i i told her and showed her the gist of a good tune to play after it.the next time, she played the 2 tunes together, and i felt a little bit pleased that i'd passed something on.
i'll have a pair of those pink specs too
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by mrs meek
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Bogman writes: "The session described by PB is very unlikely to last though."
The session at the Plough has lasted 35 years, we began hosting sessions there in 1988, the rotating hosts concept began around 1998.
~~~
Mrs Meek writes: "a session may sometimes include; 3 hours travelling + fuel, 3 hours sitting politey tapping your foot, a bellyful of bar priced drinks... do you really think its reasonable that visitors should invest their time and money into simply watching you whoop it up with your mates?"
Do you really think it's reasonable that when people have sessions they should determine how it proceeds based on whomever traveled the furthest to get there? As I said, we always include whomever wants to join in, i.e. invite them to start tunes etc., but we don't cater to them... they didn't start the session, they weren't asked to host the session... we were. But this does strike at the heat of my query: is a session social responsibility, or a night out with your friends playing tunes. I think it's the latter, and I think most sessions I've visited in Ireland are certainly that, and that's how I approached those sessions even though I traveled all the way from San Francisco. Yes, that's a long and expensive journey for me, and I often sat listening or with my instrument in my lap, but I never expected them to cater to me regardless of how far I traveled or how expensive it was.
~~~
Atahualpa Quigley writes: "There was a time, not so very long ago, when the Plough session didn't *Belong* to anyone."
I happen to know the people who were the first to have sessions at the Plough, and I doubt they were basing the way they proceeded on visitors; they were just having a night of tunes at the pub. That was 1975, what were you doing in 1975? Were you at the Plough playing Irish music? The first session I ever attended there was in 1980 and they weren't basing it on visitors then either as far as I could tell.
When a session started down the street it attracted most of the local players who were usually at the Plough, and that session had paid hosts and was definitely their session. That was 1988 and the session at the Plough nearly fizzled out as a result. That's when the publican approached us and asked us to start hosting sessions. We did, and musicians returned to make the Plough a strong Sunday night session once again. That lasted 10 years and then when the publican suggested expanding the sessions to include Tuesdays, I suggested that we try it with rotating hosts. This improved the overall sessions because it invited diversity. Why diversity? Because the different hosts are allowed to have whatever kind of session they want and aren't beholding to any imagined session code established by individuals in the outback of Irish music living in random locations throughout the US and Europe etc.
The decision was also made to have one Tuesday a month be dedicated to learners. This way if people feel they aren't ready to participate in a regular session, they have somewhere to go that IS based on the visitor and catering to the people who feel they aren't able to keep up with the tunes and pace of the regular sessions.
~~~
Regarding that session I described at the start of this thread: there were already sessions in the area that were established by this group of musicians who came in intending to claim our session as their own.
We did invite people to start tunes and some of them had no problem with our tune choices and pace and continued to come back until I cancelled it due to noise in the pub several months later.
(Please make sure you read what I said at the top before responding... I'm hoping I don't need to repeat myself throughout the thread.)
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
There was a historian being interviewed on NPR Sunday, who had a wonderful insight: "The sad thing about history, is that everyone has a good reason." I don't happen to agree with all of your version of the history of the Plough. I might agree with some of it.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I'll say again: there was a time, not so very long ago, when the session at the Plough didn't *belong* to anyone. It worked without a ringer, or a host, or mere host/greeter, or even a "host"/Gauleiter. It worked fine this way too.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
hey PB. if i travel a fair distance and waste time and money on something which i previously had good reason to believe was at least a slightly inclusive event, and i end up feeling like a spectator, then i will do my own thing.
btw in situations like this i will deliberatly play stuff that hardly anyone knows. after a while it becomes fun.
if a session is not inclusive, then its effectilvely a closed session. as such it should not be touted at a session but merely as "free live irish(etc) music", and if people ask to join,they should de declined.
btw2 in your initial description, you talk of a session that on one night had a whole group turn up en mass to join in on your thing. it seems to me you automatically had the potential for factions here. it would have been wise to decline their joining in.
btw3 unfortunately discussion threads are also conversations,
as such the OP cannot control/guide other peoples postings, and the subsequent responses to them which may not have anything to do with your OP.
which means that although you started it, it may develop in a way that you didnt plan.
****** can you see a pattern here?******
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by mrs meek
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Bless ya, mrs. meek.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
~
Life is short, too short.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Jack, I don't see anything to discuss here. The pub owner hired you to setup a session and recreate what he/she experienced at your other session. Exactly the same thing happened to me here in San Diego with Thornton's. It's your party, you can do whatever you want to meet the expectations of the pub owner. Those other players should make their own arrangements and setup their own session rather than wasting time and energy about how the didn't feel welcome, that's their problem, not yours.
Maybe I'm also a snob, but I'm with Jack on this in how I host sessions. We love having new players, but its not a learning session. While we're happy to have new players start a few sets, we're not going to bring the whole level down for the entire night, they should be there with their recording devices and listening as much as playing.
Anyone who shows up randomly to a session I host and tries to mold it into their image is not going to enjoy the conversation I'm going to have with them, and most likely will never return, which is fine by me. Thankfully, this has only happened a few times in 10 years.
I can say that we have an excellent track record with visiting musicians, I'm sure many of the people on this board have been to our session at the Ould Sod as a visitor and have had a good time. Even non-regular locals who occasionally show up are welcome, they just have to be respectful and nice to the other players, that's all I ask.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
That doesn't sound like snobbery to me, Michael. Sounds like most sessions I've ever been to.
However, I've yet to meet this fabled newbie who shows up to high level sessions demanding everyone cater to them and play tunes like The Butterfly at 1/3 speed all night either.
Funny how the new players AND the old geezers create such remarkable preconceived notions of each other...
"Session snob" says the newbie.
"We're not babysitters here..." says the geezer.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I think we need a new website. The WesternUSAsession.org.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Or... thecrybabysession.org lol
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
lol. Night night all.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
>In Chico we keep saying, "Life is short, too short"
Better than saying, "Life is short, too sho... <gurgle>"
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
>5. I beleive eating the rich is very popular just now
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
>hey PB. if i travel a fair distance and waste time and money >on something which i previously had good reason to believe >was at least a slightly inclusive event, and i end up feeling >like a spectator, then i will do my own thing.
>btw in situations like this i will deliberatly play stuff that hardly >anyone knows. after a while it becomes fun
I'm afraid I don't sympathise with this at all, Mrs M.
Sometimes "good reason" is actually mistaken after all. Anywayone here gone through life without being "reliably informed" of something which actually turned out not to be right?
I'm with you in being dissapointed in not being included. I'd like to think that wouldn't happen at our session. But being p*ssed off at other people at the sesison doesn't give you the green light to act like a complete arsehole.
- chris
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
One thing to bear in mind is that different witnesses to the same event frequently recall the events in a somehwat different manner. This will be particulalry so whent he witnesses have some sort of stake in what took place.
e.g. I think our regular session is freindly and welcoming. I try to talk to people I have not seen before and make them welcome. If I see someone with a fiddle case at the bar, I'll go over and ask them if they want to sit in etc. I think many visitors have felt welcome at our session. However that is no guarantee that every visitor has felt the same. Sometimes we have very busy nights with a whole bunch of strangers, maybe the regulars didn't get the chance to speak to everyone individually. Possibly one of the strangers wasn't with the larger group of visitors, and no-one realised this and they were left to feel isolated and uninvolved. The main group of strangers might have been asked for a few tunes and the individual ignored, as mistakenly thought to be part of that crowd. Maybe few regulars were there and most of the session was visitors or a particualr night, all of whom assume that everyone else knows eacgh other. Maybe it was a particularly streesful time at work for the regulars and they just didn't put themselves out to go and start conversations with strangers on a particualr might. Maybe no-one saw the visitor. etc. etc. etc.
For all I know there might well be a fair few folk out there who visited us one night and feel they got the cold shoulder. And none of this takes into account the behaviour of the visitor. Did they introduce themselves to anyone? Strike up a conversation?
It is perfectly possible for different, equally reasonably, people to have quite different impressions of how freindly a session is.
- chris
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
No Cause & Silverspear:
I sympathise with people who describe a session as "too irish/scottishwhatever". I thinkt hat is a reasonable criticism to make as long as it is expressing a personal taste rather than a value judgement, or laying down guidelines as to what that session should be.
There are plenty of sessions that are too scottish for me. I might enjoy listening, but I probably wouldn't feel at home playing in them. I certainly wouldn't expect, or even want, them to change.
And SS, you are not a beginer other in the sense that evreyone is. Although I dislike lables like beginer, intermediate and advanced. I don't know how anyone evr has the kneck to put themselves down for "advanced" anything
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Why do my sweary words keep making it rhough the filter? Does it have problems understanding my accent?
I feel empowered yet slightly abashed as if I should display greater restraint :-S
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
One of my friends and I thought using rock climbing grades for musicians (and tunes) was a funnier and more accurate way to describe ability than beginner/intermediate/advanced. I'm a VS player most of the time and on the odd really good day an HVS player. Those of you who don't know anything about UK rock climbing grades won't have a clue what that means.
I have been to many sessions that were "too Scottish" but if the people in them are mates with whom I can have a bit of banter, I can happily slag them for playing "all this Scottish pish" and enjoy the night anyway (c.f. the slagging thread). Which is different from someone, like the piano player Al described or the border piper I encountered, being a tool and whining that you're playing too much of whatever.
I admit, I'm not always the best at talking to visitors, especially if they are across the room from me. If they're not super chatty, I have a hard time engaging with them, being naturally shy myself (really!). At the very least though, I will try to goad a visitor into starting a tune.
No matter how ticked off you are at being an outsider at a session you traveled a zillion miles to be at, starting a bunch of tunes no one knows for the sake of being an arse is not going to help your case. It's a pet peeve of mine when visitors come into a session that's not theirs and get really aggressive about starting tunes, especially tunes which don't engage the regulars. I'm not likely to start a conversation with you as more than likely I'm thinking, "Who is this tw*t?"
"However, I've yet to meet this fabled newbie who shows up to high level sessions demanding everyone cater to them and play tunes like The Butterfly at 1/3 speed all night either."
Jusa, I have. On more than one occasion I have been at what was supposed to be a fairly high-ish level session (for lack of a better term) and had newbies show up who were really opportunistic with starting tunes -- any available break, they were in -- and it was usually the Butterfly or Far From Home or whatever at 1/3 speed. OhmygodIhavetocontributetothemusicalprocessandgetmytunein.
(and it's not always the US where this happens ;))
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Silver Spear - sounds like you ran into an empowered pack of them all at once! Tough going to squeeze in a set of your liking when the pack is "gap jumping" (i.e. firing off tunes the moment another set ends).
Of course it is well documented that we Americans don't know what to do with ourselves if there is a mili-second of down time. It always rush, rush, rush. Get the next tune in for God's sake before anyone has a chance to speak!
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Mrs. Meek if you do any of the things you describe, at a session you regret being at, that would constitute a performance. Although not a musical performance. Certainly not sessioning.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Silverspear, so now I know why you said :"poor Chris, he has vertigo"
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Did they run out of Guinness again?
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
PB, missed a few posts there but the session I was referring to is the one described in the first paragraph of your original post. Don't know what that has to with the Plough, wherever and whatever that is.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
So...to answer the question?
How did you learn? Hermetically sealed in a jar or did you benefit from the 'social responsibility' of others?
I benefited, so I give back.
This doesn't mean I want to hear The Butterfly at 1/3rd speed, however.
Logic. Learn, teach, but don't mess up a good session.
"PRACTICE AT HOME!" as the slagging goes.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
"PRACTICE AT HOME!" is good advice as well as a funny way to slag your mates...
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
If it is your local session and you are the coordinator and/or the leader of the session or maybe even just the person who reminds everyone of upcoming sessions through e-mail messages and/or telephone calls then you have the right and the responsibility to attempt to at least guide the "flow" of the session no matter who or what shows up for the session.
However, if you are a visitor at an out-of-town or out-of-state session, then you should make a genuine effort to fit in and play music with the local musicians instead of against them. If you cannot fit in and play with the local musicians, then maybe you should try to just sit there quietly, sip your drink, and listen.
My comments are based on my own experiences playing at the local sessions here and in other towns and other states since 1995. Yes, I have been on both sides of this situation. If I am reasonably certain that my attempts to play along with the other musicians won't contribute to the session and will only damage it, then I will gladly sit there quietly and listen instead of trying to play my instrument. I would prefer to avoid wrecking, disrupting, or destroying a session.
# Posted on December 4th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
If you are a visitor from out-of-town or out-of-state and the local musicians are gracious enough, kind enough, and hospitable enough to invite or allow you to sit in with them at their local session, you should reciprocate by at least trying to fit in (if you can) and play with them instead of against them. This does include not complaining because they either play too many or not enough types of tunes which you like or don't like to play. Yes you should be hospitable to visitors but there are limits to what you should and/or or should not do.
# Posted on December 4th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
If you are a player of Scandinavian tunes, please, please don't drop in on an glaringly obvious unabashedly Irish session and play zillions of Scandinavian tunes that none of the regulars has a hope of knowing for over half an hour non-stop.
This is a public service announcement.
# Posted on December 4th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Thank you for the Important Public Service Announcement, Miss Emily.
# Posted on December 5th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
That wasn't our not fav flute player was it Em ?
# Posted on December 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
No, it wasn't him.
# Posted on December 5th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Where did that RIP thread go?
# Posted on December 5th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
The former RIP is NOWT.
# Posted on December 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
I go to play with friends. I try to be polite. Too much thinking about this in my opinion. Act like an adult. Simple.
# Posted on December 6th 2009 by Bordello
Re: Sessions: social responsibility or just a night of chunes with your friends?
Act like an adult ...mmmm...I think I see a problem
# Posted on December 6th 2009 by bazouki dave