This is a talk delivered by Tony McMahon at the Crossroads of Irish Music Conference in Dublin, 1996. What do you think about all this?
Excerpt: (Tony has just played a track from the CD "River of Sound")
In my opinion, that is the path to nowhere-the dreary rattling of universal bones on a desert highway without soul, without hope. If there is an iota of Ireland there, an iota even of human warmth, then I'm a spaceman!
Crossroads Conference
Temple Bar
Dublin
19 April 1996
Paper by Tony Mac Mahon
I'm pleased that this debate on 'innovation' in traditional Irish music is taking place in public and I think its appropriate that the venue is here in Temple Bar, where there is such a concentration of new thought in so many fields of Irish Arts.
I want to say at the outset that I regard traditional music as an important part of the Irish artistic landscape and this music deserves to be taken as seriously as any other sector. I say this because it has been my experience over many years that our native music and song has generally been regarded as entertainment of a fairly primitive nature.
Underlying the affection of a large section of the public for it, is a preconception - that apart from its entertainment value, traditional music has little of artistic importance to offer. More importantly, its value in terms of addressing the spiritual desert that covers much of the western world today, including Ireland, remains unexplored.
I'd also like to say that opinions I express on this subject are my own and are based on my many years apprenticeship as a listener to musicians and singers whose paths I was fortunate to cross in my life. Much of what I have to say is based on what I have observed and learned from them . They were people of artistic modesty and generosity of spirit, larger-than-life characters who inspired us, taught us and lit up our lives.
They were people whose memory I cherish.... Seamus Ennis of Fingal, Ellen Galvin, of Moyasta in Clare, Joe Heaney and Sean O Conaire of Carna and Rosmuc, Tommy Potts of Dublin, John Doherty of Glencolmcille, Martin Rochford , John Kelly and Micho Russell of Clare. .
This whole debate is, of course, an old one and traditionally, a private one. I remember the late Joe Heaney expressing strong views about guitar accompaniment of traditional music and singing in 1965 - at the height of the so-called 'ballad boom' - and I remember even stronger views from distinguished traditional performers of that time on issues such as the taste and discernment that should be shown by a performer in both tthe choice of material and in performance - in the very way a musician or singer should regard the music that has been handed down by those who have gone before .
Always at the centre of this continuous debate was the principle of care, and of respect - care for the shape and form of music that was a gift from previous generations, a gift of great significance and value, freely and generously given. Respect for that music was also regarded as important - especially in performance where young musicians were present. They often spoke about the effect of a great performance on both musician and listener - how the whole climate of the mind could change in seconds, binding listener and musician in a shared spiritual moment... Music, I once heard said, is the language of passion.
The musicians and singers I'm talking about demonstrated these qualities in their own approach to music and they had a particular dislike for the business of what I would now call joyriding with traditional music, pushing it around, as one player said on TV, to see what would happen.
This current phase of debate has the misleading theme label of tradition and innovation --which first of all suggests an ideological conflict between traditional musicians who are progressive and those who are backwoodsmen or purists -- like myself ! I'll have something to say later on the use of the word purist...the current banner term of the sleeve-note philosopher/commentator who regards anyone challenging his diet of received commercial wisdom as a primitive... a sort of home-grown hill-billy.
Whatever ideological disagreement there is between musicians, it doesn't and shouldn't extend into personal relations and I would feel much closer to some of the innovators whose work I find boring than I would to others whose music I love. So, I'd like to make clear in advance that the issue that concerns me is strictly music... and not personalities . And incidentally Irish Traditional Music isn't my favourite music and hasn't been for a long time. Anyway, we're all in the proverbial public kitchen and therefore we must all share the heat as well as the wine.
This debate - the balance or imbalance between Tradition and Innovation - would have us assume that the new music which we're told is charting the course of Irish Traditional Music into the next millenium is defined as ensemble music.... and that it is solidly rooted in tradition . This is part of my problem with it... because in my opinion it is neither rooted in, nor is it resonant with this tradition .
Can anybody seriously suggest that what you've just heard signals the position of Irish Traditional music as it enters into its third millenium ? Where can a place be found here for the spirit of the authentic solo performer from West Cork or South Armagh, in this Hiberno-Jazz scrubbed clean of roots, ritual and balls !
The current phase of this old debate was sparked by a short statement of opinion which I made on The Late Late Show in February of last year , in response to a direct question put to me by Gay Byrne. The entire show that night was devoted to the up-coming television series 'A River Of Sound '. It featured most of the main performers as well as extensive interviews with Philip King of Hummingbird Productions, who with Nuala O'Connor produced the series, and Prof. Micheal O Suilleabhain of the University of Limerick who devised, wrote and presented it.
The Late Late that night had an upbeat sense of occasion about it . A few days earlier the President had launched the TV series at an elaborate concert party in Dublin Castle and the Late Late show audience the following Saturday was packed with people associated, in all kinds of ways, with playing, arranging, promoting, recording, broadcasting, packaging Traditional Music and commercial folk music.
The question presenter Gay Byrne asked me , after one of the music performances , was to give an opinion on what I had just heard. I did just that ,very briefly, and the entire studio audience went into uproar , shouted me down... led by a roar of BEGRUDGER from one distinguished member of the audience , one who speaks with an assumed authority about an art form, the expression of which lies far beyond the borders of aspiration.
Thinking that maybe I was in a national minority of maybe a half dozen other begrudgers and Mullahs of tradition like myself ( that's how another self-appointed expert described us recently in the Irish Times....Mullahs of tradition !), my phone started to ring at eight the next morning and over the next three weeks I received 168 letters and calls from traditional musicians from all over the country..all, surprisingly, not only in agreement with what I had said but adding their own views and their own emphasis -much of it very strong indeed.
At the time, it seemed to me that the body of Irish traditional performers had an almighty, long-established pain somewhere in their shared spiritual gut and it seems as if the few words I said that night stuck a finger into the wound and out came anger and frustration.
This is something I understand and sympathise with..after all if a man spends thirty years playing the fiddle for his neighbours in east Clare, he will not be impressed by one individual's personal speculation on the likely development of his music in the next century , delivered as Gospel whether by musician or Mullah.
What seems to have made this more galling still for the solo performers who contacted me, quiet , modest people who don't care for public debate, whose music comes as naturally to them as breathing, was a perceived hidden agenda.... that the innovators claiming to chart the course of traditional Irish music - their music-for generations to come, happen to belong to one or two small musical cliques, representing part of the top end of the commercial folk music sector.
The River of Sound series, in my opinion, failed to mention, let alone address, issues which are central to this debate . I'm going to stay with that series because it has brought us to this particular point and because there isn't time to deal with several other issues of relevance, for example , developements in the playing of my own instrument, the 2-row accordion, which to my mind have had an adverse impact on our music. Perhaps these other issues could be addressed on a future occasion.
A River of Sound was mounted by Philip King and Nuala O'Connor of Hummingbird Productions in co-production with BBC in Ulster and RTE. It was devised, written and presented by Prof. Micheal O Suilleabhain of Limerick University.
Finding the resources for a major series like this is a daunting task and it is to Philip King's credit that for the second time in 4 years he did it. It must be remembered that whatever any of us think about this series at present, its real and lasting use will be its archive value in years to come, despite the absence of the great majority of mature traditional performers of today.
Major co-productions, however always come with strings attached, which in this case boil down to delivering a mass audience for what is perceived by TV companies to be music of minority interest. In practise, that meant studding the series with 'big names' , mainly in the commercial music business, irrespective, unfortunately, of whether or not they had anything of substance to contribute - which in my view they clearly had not !
However, as we the license payers north and south, pay all the bills at the end of the day, the foundation principles of Public Service Broadcasting Broadcasting should be observed . The relevant principle here is that of impartiality in the treatment of controvertial issues ; the public is entitled to a balanced presentation of both sides of any and every argument .
Unfortunately this principle was totally ignored by presenter, producer and director alike, who turned out a series of illustrated lectures more appropriate to a class of music undergraduates in University College Cork than to the core audience of nearly 200,000 viewers of traditional music programmes , which RTE has cultivated for thirty years. This audience includes practically all traditional performers - a very large mumber indeed, as well as a great number of good listeners and regular , long-time followers of the music.
Now its one thing to present an imbalanced view of this subject which is dear to the hearts of a great many people ; its quite another to railroad people in the public eye and the pop music business who know little or nothing about this music into speaking up for CHANGE and DEVELOPEMENT , when they clearly illustrate ignorance as to what it is that requires change. After all, what person depending on being loved by the public in one way or another, would speak up against change, when presented with leading questions on TV ? Then, having gerrymandered this support for change, they went one further - no voice of dissent whatsoever was allowed and in the case of one maverick who departed the set questions and required answers, myself, the editorial hatchet was used on every last word of dissent. When you think of it, its quite a feat to engage two national Public Service Broadcasting organisations in the promotion of one individual's controvertial 'vision' of this art form. It has to be said, in this regard, that the corporate view of this music held by both organisations, though in different degrees - that it is culturally and technically dubious - probably blinded them to the possibility of serious controversy on such a lightweight subject.
The great traditional music innovators of the last 90 years were also deemed by the producer & presenter not to have existed, apart from unidentified short clips and photographs of some of them, used with ruthless expediency as tags of authenticity : Patrick J.Tuohy, Michael Coleman,James Morrisson, Lad O'Beirne,Ellen Galvin, Patrick Kelly. John Doherty,Frank Cassidy, Seamus Ennis,Patrick O'Keefe, Geordie Hanna,Joe Cooley, Micho Russell, Noel Hill, Iarla O Lionaird.
The main innovators working with contemporary ensemble playing also seem to have been written out of the picture, Peadar O Riada, John Beag O Flaithearta, Bill Whelan, The Chieftains, De Danann and many others.
The response I got to the Late Late show gave me heart , because the calls and letters represented a cross-section of serious musicians and singers in this country... people whom I have known for years , whose music is widely respected : Mat Molly, Liam O'Flynn, Seamus Tansey, Noel Hill, Neillidh Mulligan, Paul Brock, Iarla O Lionaird..... as well as people who have been quietly playing and singing in their own communities for most of their lives.
What really struck me about the tone and content of these letters and phone calls was their frustration, anger and upset . They expressed various degrees of sadness at changes that are taking place in the performance and interpretation of traditional music today, they expressed anger at what they saw as the selling of these changes to impressionable young musicians, they expressed frustration at the media - especially the electronic media, for slavishly promoting what they ( those who contacted me ) regard as trendy , spurious and shallow ...while at the same time demonstrating a rooted ignorance and intolerance of the wonder and beauty of the music that has been given to us. Manipulation of the media in this field by vested interests was suggested over and over.
One in particular , a musician who had achieved distinction as a solo performer in the late fifties and who is still highly regarded today put it this way : 'Mac Mahon' , he said , 'I'm afraid we've been doing it wrong all along!'
That was over a year ago and in the course of my work and travels around the country since then , my eyes have been opened to the distance that has opened up , countrywide , between the main body of traditional performers whose music and song give us unique reflections of the spirit and character of this country and the smaller group of performers who regard this music as a convenient mode of joyriding to the glitzy heights of commercial popularity and success. This is not to say that those involved in the kind of innovation that is most likely to get them there are without love for the music they use as a crutch on that road. They are not . The problem... it seems to many... is not that they love their music less but that they love their careers more.
I think there is one basic question that must be asked - what is music for, what is its value, what can it do for us ? Is it an aural carpet , a sort of ear chocolate to soothe our nerves in pubs, traffic jams or shopping centres?
Or , is it a gift to humanity of such proportions that words can do little justice to it ? Is it to be reduced , drained of the veiled voices of Ireland, electronically scrubbed clean, packaged and presented as a commercial commodity whose value is measured in record sales, TV Tam Ratings ? And in the case of public performance, is its true potential the generation of unthinking roars of conditioned applause?
What on the other hand is happening when a performance sends that shiver up the spine, brings a tear to the eye , when it sharpens and quickens both spirit and emotions to the point where the individual lonely heart is at one with what Tommy Potts called the eternal harmonies ?
If this then is the true power and purpose of music ...to bring about a sublime change in the climate of the individual mind by uniting our most tender and sensitive feelings in an orientation towards the supernatural... and I believe it is... what then is the use, the value of Irish Traditional Music in particular?
Is it right that it should be structurally mangled , speeded up out of all proportion, layered and sweetned with carpets of accompaniment, beaten into multi-cultural rythmic patterns , 'improved', developed or damaged, depending on where you're coming from....... so as to make it as digestible as possible to an international record-buying, concert going public?
It seems to me that for those who have ears to hear, this music of ours possesses the power of magic : it can put us in touch with ourselves in ways no other Irish art form can do. It can touch the pulse of ancestral memory, allowing us to redefine our dreams of what it is to be Irish. It can bring the lonely famine landscape to life, it can soothe the trauma and trouble of existence, it is possessed of the veiled eroticism of tenderness. It can adorn a moment of joy, it can sharpen a moment of sorrow. It is a gift of nature, dispensed with the abandon of wild flowers.
I am not aware of what is perceived to be wrong with it and I can say without fear of contradiction that I have sat, talked, drank and listened to all the great players and singers of the last 30 years and I have yet to hear one of them express a desire for the kind of development we're told is the prescribed path for us now to follow.
Play CD 'River of Sound' track 6- Pulsus
In my opinion, that is the path to nowhere-the dreary rattling of universal bones on a desert highway without soul, without hope. If there is an iota of Ireland there, an iota even of human warmth, then I'm a spaceman !
The late Breandan Breatnach defined Traditional Irish music as essentially the art of solo performance - a gift - to which the musician or singer devotes an apprentice of learning, especially to the great songs and song airs of Ireland. It involves a search for the local footprints of those who have gone before... and it involves a care of not trampling on them when found. It involves a search for the music and songs of one's own place, and if that is not successful , a search for the music to which the individual musical spirit can resonate.
It means having a mind-set to one's gift that is devoid of aggression, of narrow personal ambition, of political preconception - It involves an innocence, a humility in being the bearer of a gift that can infuse musician and listener with a shaft of universal joy. It involves an awareness of the natural ,internal rhythm of a piece as distinct from its speed, it involves attention to the smallest detail of a tune or a song and most importantly it involves care and discernment when deciding to add one's own embellishment to a piece of music that has its own local integrity and has stood the test of time.
It also implies a maturity of judgement ...an independent ear... an ability to question popular approaches to structure, accompaniment, ornamentation and other received ideas. It also requires a practical language of criticism. In this regard we have to think about the opinion makers in this field and consider how they make their judgements and exercise their influence.
I have looked at this process with a number of colleagues in music over a number of years and we have noticed a general unity of opinion and of purpose among those who bring this music to the public... concert promoters, broadcasters, record producers, publicity agents, managers, roadies, groupies and so on. Feeding off each others' ideas and judgements on what is a most important sector of Irish Arts - their expertise is usually based on a diet of public house philosophy, social gossip, the wisdom of record sleeve notes, the requirements of the entertainment and folk music markets.
While self-appointed experts indulge in exchanges of mutually beneficial services, favours and ego-massage , the skilled solo performer who has borne the heat of the day is expected to keep his opinions to himself, as those before him had to do in the 'sixties, or at least confine them to the kitchen corner. If he, or she should dare to step out of line, a quiet policy of exclusion and marginalisation slouches into place . If, in that instance, a musician or singer is dependant on music for a living, then its time to go into a quiet room and write a new social intercourse script.
The contemporary folk-musack boat must not be rocked....
On the basis, then of BREANDAN BREATNACh's definition of Irish Trad. Music, which is the one I care to use, I wouldn't regard the bulk of contemporary ensemble treatment of this music either as traditional or interesting . I find much of it boring, repetitive, mechanical ...cavorting and jostling its way along the entertainment superhighway in search of a comfortable stall in the market-place.
I have no great problem with the market-place , though I have great memories of the respect shown for the Arts in former East Germany, or by the GLC in London before Thatcher,for example, but I do think arrangers and composers in this particular sector should be prepared to stand on their own creative feet.
I also would have no problem with them thinking this music wasn't suitable or even good enough for the commercial folk-music market . Neither have I any problem with new music... quite the opposite, I'm all for it ....I just don't think its ethical to use the name and fame of Irish Traditional Music as a crutch or as a substitute for what cannot otherwise be achieved in the popular music market.
After all, Bill Whelan and Michael Flatley did it with the original work of Riverdance, and with no prescription that theirs' was the correct road for all of us to follow into the next millenium.
Another problem I have with ensemble treatment of traditional music is that it leaves little space for individual expression - and no amount of the kind of feigned ecstasy , either the beatific countenance or the hinge at the butt of the neck as we saw in ' River of Sound' performances can fool a poor Clare fiddler into reading pretence as passion, shadow as substance. I can speak from some experience on the dangers of being involved in public music brawls... because I hold the record of having been sacked out of four Ceili bands, not altogether for perceived ideological impurity but rather for preferring the dancer's embrace of a west Clare farmer's daughter to the tumult of the Tulla Ceili Band at full throttle !
It was at my desk in RTE that The Bothy Band first started, but I left after the hype of the first couple of public performances , because the music was regarded as a vehicle, again for the same joyriding to fame ....and again at even fuller throttle than the Tulla Ceili Band!
It seems to me there are two kinds of innovation in this field: what I would call internal and external innovation.....internal... as demonstrated by the masters of this century from Patsy Tuohy through to Micho Russell. This was the innovation of individual genius... for which our music , in my opinion ,provides full scope...innovation that will stand the test of time. The other kind seems to me to mainly a process of rotovation for handy musical tricks and compositional 'glickery' and its place in the next century could very well be the river-bed of spent fads and fashions.
Its interesting and significant that the art of sean-nos singing...which is, after all, at the heart of this tradition... hasn't as yet appeared in this whole picture. It seems to have been granted a dispensation from the merchandisers' commercial game-plan ....who as yet haven't found a way of demonstrating its useability in the market-place. It has been largely ignored , even by the general tribe of musicians ...it has yet to be brought in from the cold. The finest sean-nos singers in this country have no place in the machine which boasts of having created a delicate balance between their tradition and the developers' innovation. No amount of platitudinous rambling from Dolores Riordan, Van Morrisson or other luminaries of the pop-music world will convince Micheal O Ceannabhain in Carna that his art has a place in the shade, not to mind the sun.
This age-old tradition may yet be the target of the trend-setters ...the demi-gods who barter and trade among themselves ....Perhaps its the last field ripe for open-cast mining by the musical explorers , who ultimately might even market their wares in new territories of the Far East , that is of course, after explorers of like mind have done the appropriate ground- work in undermining the cultural habitats there.... grinding out finer brands of fodder for the commercial cannon ....
The signs are already appearing here...for example in the hysterical use of the sean-nos singing tradition as a peg , on which to hang displays of public exhibitionism which would be more appropriate to an evangelical prayer meeting in Kentucky than a warm kitchen in Carna.
Its frightening to contemplate the diminution of diversity in so many small cultures today....The fragmented European psyche isn't content with the rape of the natural resources of our planet and the resultant loss of animal and plant species diversity...now we're targeting the ancient cultural habitats as well, including our own. We're engaging in this in the belief that no one will contest the selling of everything ...and that we can rush headlong forward...without standing long enough in one place to consider the cultural territory we've come from , to leave our foot print there for our children.
Have we not considered that the great minds, including scientists, look to the past in search of answers... and not into the future ? Have we not considered the question : ' Who will teach my grand-son if my son doesn't understand ? ' It seems to me that the policy-makers in the field of so-called developement of Irish Traditional Music are patronising in the extreme in their estimation of youth.
Young people today are capable of understanding what we call The Pure Drop....and I would even suggest the marketeers are out of step with national and world trends in their crusade of dragging the youth into the shattered vision of the post-modern techno-music world. After all, if you parachute an African harp-player or a Chinese pop-singer into a Chieftains recording session , you'll increase the novelty value and sell more units of your product....but you will have engaged in the work of cultural enslavement....
At the end of this road there will then come a break in the long continuum of vision and we'll have arrived at a point where the imagination can no longer interrogate the music....where it can't even speak to it.
Nobody should misinterpret this as opposition to change or developement. I'm suggesting no such constipation of the imagination , no objection to putting electric light into a historic building, provided you don't tunnel cables through foundations, stained glass and ceiling cornices. What I am saying is this : before anyone sits down to carry out a programme of structural or cosmetic improvement on a piece of music or a song that carries the footprint of generations , that person should have the integrity to let his or her life press down into that rich soil of tradition, down through the layers of loam of the Irish experience...and it is only in honourable interaction with that soil ..and only out of the depths of that personal experience can true innovation be created.
This was part of the achievement of the late Tommy Potts of Dublin. He was one of the great innovators, but to define his art in terms of the innovation he brought to a small part of his repertoire is to misunderstand the main message on his music, which was the expression of an almost unbearable mix of emotions and passion . It was rooted in the old piping tradition , nurtured by extremes of grappling with the trials of existence... and grown out of an artistry that was marked by extremes of taste, discernment and tenderness. Of all the musicians and singers I've ever met, his was the only music that could skewer its way into the inner soul of the listener and burn his footprint into it forever.
Using an aspect of this man's art in support of the main thesis of 'A River of Sound ' is, for me, personally , an act of artistic expediency and cruelty which I found deeply upsetting. I met him in Clare when I was eight , I knew him and his music intimately until his death on March 19th 1988, and I can find not as much as a ripple of resonance between his innovations and those featured on A River of Sound.
This is how Potts played the common march-air 'Billy Byrne of Ballymanus' ....a tune from many an afternoon field of dancing competitions, spilt ice-cream, screaming babies and out-of-tune pipe bands. Its a tune so hackneyed that I've never heard it played by any solo performer or group.
Here is how Potts redeemed , redefined and adorned a tune so forelorn, so buried in bad associations that nobody would ever think of playing it. This is a poor recording that gives only a hint, and a vague hint at that, of his greatness. Eventhough it captured only an echo of his unique voice ..... he shunned recording and publicity and was a highly nervous man, it nevertheless sets a headline in internal innovation that is characterised by an exquisite sense of taste and discernment, an imagination...and a tenderness beyond words .
So where do we go from here ? We have only to look around the few acres of Temple Bar, starting here with this wonderful music centre , to realise that Ireland has at last got up off her knees ....Here is a public home for the Arts , where the wonders of modern architecture and engineering provide space for many of the best creative minds. When you think of the fate planned for Temple Bar ...a wasteland sitting on top of an underground bus-depot, planned by the same breed of social innovator that destroyed Dublin's light-rail system...we can say that as a nation we're no longer living in the hinterland of the oppressor.
I see the resurgence of popular Irish Folk Music as a part of the social fabric today...used or rather underused mainly as light entertainment for tourist and native alike. If we agree that it is an important mountain in the Irish Arts landscape , it requires the same sensitivity and care as brave people devoted to the great mountain of Mullaghmore . We mustn't reduce our musical heritage to a level compatible with tourist taste or commercial music-traffic. It provides ample scope for developement in the hands of the good solo performer , and equal scope for the inspired arranger. The fact that this country has produced singers and musicians of quality and in numbers out of all proportion to its size, tells us that the infrastructure is in place , willing and fit for challenge.
Let us look under the surface here to see where the real liberals ...and the real conservatives stand. Let's take down the FOR SALE sign now...because if you start a business , you'll soon have to decide who to feed...the hungry...or the business. Let us stop trading in the commodities of cheap paint, tactics and shape-shifting . Let us be modest and caring in the presence of music that carries the race memories of our people, music that sustained them when they had lost everything else. And remember that the people who gave us back so much of what had been lost - our own travelling community- are the very people who face the bulldozer today, and maybe the shotgun tomorrow.
Let us gaze forever forward through the lens of the powerful and majestic past and let us imagine how bleak, how barren the future Irish landscape would be without our traditional music.
pretty long and boring....what's his point?Sounds like he's saying the same thing Dodger said a few days ago. But I believe dodger said it better!??!
and...
Irish music entering it's third milenium?
Huh? ya think?
MacMahon rambles but he does toss us a few gems, "Here is how Potts redeemed , redefined and adorned a tune so forelorn, so buried in bad associations that nobody would ever think of playing it. This is a poor recording that gives only a hint, and a vague hint at that, of his greatness. Even though it captured only an echo of his unique voice ..... he shunned recording and publicity and was a highly nervous man, it nevertheless sets a headline in internal innovation that is characterized by an exquisite sense of taste and discernment, an imagination...and a tenderness beyond words. "
bazouki dave-no I'm not going to get caught up in that!"
electronically scrubbed clean, packaged and presented as a commercial commodity whose value is measured in record sales, TV Tam Ratings ? And in the case of public performance, is its true potential the generation of unthinking roars of conditioned applause..."
I thought that dodger was trying to say this(perhaps he wasn't) a couple of days ago in his 'uni degree' post...new vs old playing etc...that's all.
Okay, yes, there is repetition, but this was a talk originally, and repetition and variation (rather like the performance of a tune, perhaps) are often at the heart of such rhetoric. I thought this was worth reading all the way through ... wish I had been there to hear the original. Love him or loathe him, the guy has guts. Interesting to hear of the cry 'begrudger' being shouted on the Late Late show. I guess there was many a begrudger who applauded that cry.
Every one has an opinion and some folks are succinct and some are not. I'm kinda bummed that I read the entire thing. It presented nothing new. It changed nor challenged my opinion at all. It made no impact whatsoever on me. It wasted my time. I feel foolish for having thought that there might be something worth while.
If a culture wishes to save its' music from external innovation, or to some, exploitation, then it could do no better than to have singing a permanent part of the day. Singing would be part of every class day in school, it would be part of everyday life at home. If one were to preserve culture by relegating it to performers, then one would have a smaller and smaller group going higher and higher until , like summit of a mountain, you will reach a peak, a singularity, with no place left to go.
Tony, early on, says "This current phase of debate has the misleading theme label of tradition and innovation --which first of all suggests an ideological conflict between traditional musicians who are progressive and those who are backwoodsmen or purists." He must have lost his focus, because he never seemed to come back to " . . . something to say later on the use of the word purist..."
Though I still appreciate his comments about Tommy Potts.
I guess I'm not as clever as some of you lot- I thought it was an excellent little paper, with valuable ideas, well and clearly presented.
I think part of the appeal of Tradition Irish to me is that it's not entirely based on what is commercially viable. There is something here much too valuable to put a price tag on, and it is in danger of being lost.
Read it carefully and think about it, even if you come to disagree.
"after all if a man spends thirty years playing the fiddle for his neighbours in east Clare, he will not be impressed by one individual's personal speculation on the likely development of his music in the next century , delivered as Gospel whether by musician or Mullah." Tony MacMahon.
It is very easy to reply to this long and heart-felt article by making short and flippant remarks, but that really does not help this attempt to start an important debaten on this subject.
I would be interested to hear the recordings mentioned in the original article, but I suspect that I know already wht they sound like, and would not disagree too much with our original contributor.
It would be interesting to know, of all those who buy the recordings mentioned, how many are actually inspired to take up an instrument, go back to the original sources maybe, and actually make a contribution to the tradition, as opposed to those who use it merely as background music before it is discarded, like so many 'progressive' cds, to sit unwanted in the racks of ducsy charity shops.
I'm not being short or flippant. It takes him a very long time to say what he's trying to say. It's the same old argument and it's based on a false premise. The idea that the 'tradition' has been frozen in time for 'three millenia' (which almost made me laugh out loud when I read it) and is now threatened by the evils of commercialism and popularity is silly. And trust you me I'm no fan of commercialism or popularity. The fact is is that culture and its trappings change wheather you like it or not and nothing you can do will stop it or define it by your standards to future generations. A BIG TO DO ABOUT NOTHING.
If there is going to be a debate, then we need to know what the subject is, we need some kind of statement which we might be for or against. Can you use Macmahon's article as the basis for such a statement? I can't.
Well at least some folks read it! cheers. Sorry if it was longer than your normal reading material, that had not occurred to me as an issue being a voracious reader of non-fiction myself .
I thought it was an excellent and thought provoking article and felt that it was worth bringing over in its entirety so it will be available on the session search feature.
I feel that he offers an important view on the music that is worth consideration by all of us who play trad, whatever our own views, and that his words might influence us in our playing and how we view the music.
Here he has some more to say on these subjects;
Here's my short essay :
I love that tune
I love playing this tune
I can't play that tune but I love listening to it
I hate that poxy tune but being a gentleman I'll play along with it.
Finally to as the great Brian once said:-
Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...
And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...
I don't agree with everything he says (I happen to like ensemble playing and accompaniment when it's done well and sensitively) but I actually liked the article. He made some valid points. I think his argument was more nuanced than just saying, "the tradition has been frozen for three millenia and now it's changing and this is bad." That's an unfair over simplification. I get the impression rather that he is arguing that when the music is smoothed over, when the rough edges are taken away, when it's made more palatable to the masses, it loses something of its character. For him (well, not just for him), the music carries in it pain and suffering, joy and passion, and he sees that being lost in commercialized music. He's not against innovation, but he only likes innovation which stays true to the character of the music as he sees it, i.e. Tommy Potts.
He is not saying anything that hasn't been said more succinctly on these pages. I agree with much of his sentiments; but he watches too much television. And he should read a bit about the history of the hill billies before he denigrates them.
Re: What do you think about all this trousers business?
I was too busy changing my trousers to wade through it.
And anyway thew world#s moved on 13 years since.
Take hot water bottle collecting for instance, that's different from then. I'd suggest he takes his theremin to the nearest session , chill out, have a pint of Southern Comfort and play a tune or two (whilst wearing the appropriate apparel of course.)
It's utterly outrageous to post this full version of the paper presented by Tony Mac Mahon, firstly, without the permission of the author, secondly, without any reference to the remit of The Crossroads Conference, and, thirdly, without any apparent understanding of the context within which Tony delivered his thoughts.
Summary of what Tony has been saying for the last several years.......................
" I'm so good at this, I'm the leading authority on this, I will have the last say on this, a million or so years ago I won a competition playing it (I have yet to decide whether the person who judged that day knew enough about it to make that judgement), I and I alone will decide what direction this great cultural orgasm of Irishness should take. I am burdened by the weight of my own knowledge and flabbergasted by the ignorance of the masses in not recognising my geniusness, I am Mr. Box, the King of the slow air, the owner of the pained look of constipation. Listen all ye heathens, I have made my judgement, there are rules, and I'm making them."
The Crosbhealach link above summarized Tony's thoughts nicely in five sentences:
"Tony MacMahon noted a superficiality in new-found interest in commercial traditional music. He illustrated in a lengthy audio excerpt from River of Sound what he felt was the remoteness of (in particular Ó Súilleabháin's) modern interpretation of the music. He introduced the term 'aural carpet' as questioning of the quantity of traditional music currently used and received un-artistically in Ireland, saw commercial music's modern interpretation as 'scrubbed clean' of historic voice to appeal to ignorant audiences, holding that technically brilliant younger musicians today often lacked basic feeling. He defended the uncredited components of traditional music artistry. His view was that traditional music was being mined for ideas by commercial music, and expressed concern that future generations would lose 'the way' in the economic, popular tumult."
Oh yes, and not forgetting the "hinge at the butt of the neck" remark - we enjoyed that one particularly at the time I recall. I applaud the man - bloody great speech, or maybe obituary.
Presented as it is here, it is too long, yes, but it was meant as a talk, not an article. There are other places on the net where it has been discussed, and you can get the gist of it without reading it all.
And he has a point. Ensemble playing, including sessions of course, have their place - that's the interest that brings most of us here. But it is a very limited genre. The view that solo or near-solo performance is at the heart of this music is not to be dismissed easily.
If solo performance is the heart, what part of the body corresponds to FAst Reel Thrashing (capitalisation deliberate)?
It's utterly outrageous to post this full version of the paper presented by Tony Mac Mahon, firstly, without the permission of the author, secondly, without any reference to the remit of The Crossroads Conference, and, thirdly, without any apparent understanding of the context within which Tony delivered his thoughts.[Quote]
perhaps youcould explain why it is outrageous?
the heart of the music in my opinion is dancing,that can be performed by one musician or several, what is important is that the musician/musicans plays at a steady speed and plays with lift
I'm going to body swerve the main discussion to make a sidepoint about change.
When people say change has always happened further change is therefore nothing different this arguement serves as a fog to hide the specific issues in any given case. It is an arguement frequently used by politicians to justify progress (as percieved by them) as a fait accompli. It ignores issues about the direction and actual content of any particular change and allows them to paint any opponents as dinosaurs.
I'm not expressing an opinion on the specific changes discussed by Tony McM in this message, whether they are desirable or not.
I am expressing my dislike at the arguement: change is natural therefore (any) change (must be) is good.
Far better to discuss the particualr merits or otherwise of any indiv individual change. (Otherwise you end up with sh*te like "New" Labour).
[When people say change has always happened further change is therefore nothing different this arguement serves as a fog to hide the specific issues in any given case. It is an arguement frequently used by politicians to justify progress (as percieved by them) as a fait accompli.]
Nicely put Chris. The same tactic is used by powerful interests who would have us believe that genetic engineering is the same thing as selective breeding.
MacMahon's music is powerful, honest and heartfelt. So are his opinions. I like what I've heard and read of these - occasional inexplicable gaffes (2nd rate etc.) notwithstanding.
The world needs cantankerous old men and women with strongly held convictions who aren't afraid to voice them even when they know this will draw opprobrium from the conformist masses. Long life to bollicky old Tony.
"I am expressing my dislike at the arguement: change is natural therefore (any) change (must be) is good."
I don't think too many hold that view............that any change is good, that's a pretty ridiculous viewpoint, but when you think about it the converse view must be equally rediculous! Mc Mahon is not the icon he thinks he is.
And, I daresay, his view would be the 'conformist' view wouldn' it?
Leave people alone to do what they want and to enjoy the music that they enjoy. I will tell you that I like a small sliver of just about any genre of music. I try to catch what was good it before it turns/turned to crap. Not interested in making people conform to what I think is 'pure'. Most wouldn't like it.
The basic problem is apart from the dream of making money, is that the pace of change has outstripped the old generation to generation transmission. If we give a toss about preserving the 'sound', 'the old wild mountainy sound' etc, then we should be listening to the playing of our grandparents' era, and those later who have moved on a bit. Otherwise what is miraculous in this music is going to get lost. (If it hasn't nearly been already.)
It's not uncommon to be at a large session or party where people (and mainly Irish) have gathered for this music today, and to not hear a note of anything authentic in spirit.
Just my tuppence from the uk. I think Ireland has a generation (and let's pray for two) left in it before the same thing happens.
But MM is the situation you describe any different than in generations past? Did the music played in 1845 sound like the music played in 1925? And we know that that sounds quite different than what it did in 1955. The pace of change is more rapid but change has always been the constant. The past truly is the past. I think the premise of preserving anything stylistic is a myth. The tunes are good and will be around but the treatment will always vary.
just learned the Windy Gap on banjo and I think it has a wild mountainy sound so I'm going to play it so it sticks in the head. Careful with that fire!
probably all are in agreement here-just don't like being lectured on the obvious by self proclaimed experts!
The thing is Shanty, Tony isnt a self proclaimed expert. For a start Seamus Ennis declared him an expert or as good as. He is an expert, he is a part of the living tradition and we do no harm to reflect deeply on his words.
You're right wicked hacker, poor choice of words on my part. He is an expert on traditional music. I'm not sure what that means or qualifies one to do. Give an educated opinion? Most of the people on this board do that every day. As I grow older and dumber I realise that most experts are giving the same opinion that you can hear in a bar or at a truck stop. Academics just take longer to say things. I also think there is a lot of myth associated with Irish traditional music and I think many of the experts are in the business of protecting that myth.
Hmm, As someone who was handed down a tradition, Surely its his obligation to preserve that tradition and to pass it on ?
What about these myths then? name a couple? I don't really see Tony as an Academic, he is a practical exponent of the art. His knowledge was gained experimentally rather than theoretically.
. I also think there is a lot of myth associated with Irish traditional music and I think many of the experts are in the business of protecting that myth." "
Name a few of these myths then I'm genuinely interested.
What do you think about all this?
What do you think about all this?
This is a talk delivered by Tony McMahon at the Crossroads of Irish Music Conference in Dublin, 1996. What do you think about all this?
Excerpt: (Tony has just played a track from the CD "River of Sound")
In my opinion, that is the path to nowhere-the dreary rattling of universal bones on a desert highway without soul, without hope. If there is an iota of Ireland there, an iota even of human warmth, then I'm a spaceman!
Crossroads Conference
Temple Bar
Dublin
19 April 1996
Paper by Tony Mac Mahon
I'm pleased that this debate on 'innovation' in traditional Irish music is taking place in public and I think its appropriate that the venue is here in Temple Bar, where there is such a concentration of new thought in so many fields of Irish Arts.
I want to say at the outset that I regard traditional music as an important part of the Irish artistic landscape and this music deserves to be taken as seriously as any other sector. I say this because it has been my experience over many years that our native music and song has generally been regarded as entertainment of a fairly primitive nature.
Underlying the affection of a large section of the public for it, is a preconception - that apart from its entertainment value, traditional music has little of artistic importance to offer. More importantly, its value in terms of addressing the spiritual desert that covers much of the western world today, including Ireland, remains unexplored.
I'd also like to say that opinions I express on this subject are my own and are based on my many years apprenticeship as a listener to musicians and singers whose paths I was fortunate to cross in my life. Much of what I have to say is based on what I have observed and learned from them . They were people of artistic modesty and generosity of spirit, larger-than-life characters who inspired us, taught us and lit up our lives.
They were people whose memory I cherish.... Seamus Ennis of Fingal, Ellen Galvin, of Moyasta in Clare, Joe Heaney and Sean O Conaire of Carna and Rosmuc, Tommy Potts of Dublin, John Doherty of Glencolmcille, Martin Rochford , John Kelly and Micho Russell of Clare. .
This whole debate is, of course, an old one and traditionally, a private one. I remember the late Joe Heaney expressing strong views about guitar accompaniment of traditional music and singing in 1965 - at the height of the so-called 'ballad boom' - and I remember even stronger views from distinguished traditional performers of that time on issues such as the taste and discernment that should be shown by a performer in both tthe choice of material and in performance - in the very way a musician or singer should regard the music that has been handed down by those who have gone before .
Always at the centre of this continuous debate was the principle of care, and of respect - care for the shape and form of music that was a gift from previous generations, a gift of great significance and value, freely and generously given. Respect for that music was also regarded as important - especially in performance where young musicians were present. They often spoke about the effect of a great performance on both musician and listener - how the whole climate of the mind could change in seconds, binding listener and musician in a shared spiritual moment... Music, I once heard said, is the language of passion.
The musicians and singers I'm talking about demonstrated these qualities in their own approach to music and they had a particular dislike for the business of what I would now call joyriding with traditional music, pushing it around, as one player said on TV, to see what would happen.
This current phase of debate has the misleading theme label of tradition and innovation --which first of all suggests an ideological conflict between traditional musicians who are progressive and those who are backwoodsmen or purists -- like myself ! I'll have something to say later on the use of the word purist...the current banner term of the sleeve-note philosopher/commentator who regards anyone challenging his diet of received commercial wisdom as a primitive... a sort of home-grown hill-billy.
Whatever ideological disagreement there is between musicians, it doesn't and shouldn't extend into personal relations and I would feel much closer to some of the innovators whose work I find boring than I would to others whose music I love. So, I'd like to make clear in advance that the issue that concerns me is strictly music... and not personalities . And incidentally Irish Traditional Music isn't my favourite music and hasn't been for a long time. Anyway, we're all in the proverbial public kitchen and therefore we must all share the heat as well as the wine.
This debate - the balance or imbalance between Tradition and Innovation - would have us assume that the new music which we're told is charting the course of Irish Traditional Music into the next millenium is defined as ensemble music.... and that it is solidly rooted in tradition . This is part of my problem with it... because in my opinion it is neither rooted in, nor is it resonant with this tradition .
Can anybody seriously suggest that what you've just heard signals the position of Irish Traditional music as it enters into its third millenium ? Where can a place be found here for the spirit of the authentic solo performer from West Cork or South Armagh, in this Hiberno-Jazz scrubbed clean of roots, ritual and balls !
The current phase of this old debate was sparked by a short statement of opinion which I made on The Late Late Show in February of last year , in response to a direct question put to me by Gay Byrne. The entire show that night was devoted to the up-coming television series 'A River Of Sound '. It featured most of the main performers as well as extensive interviews with Philip King of Hummingbird Productions, who with Nuala O'Connor produced the series, and Prof. Micheal O Suilleabhain of the University of Limerick who devised, wrote and presented it.
The Late Late that night had an upbeat sense of occasion about it . A few days earlier the President had launched the TV series at an elaborate concert party in Dublin Castle and the Late Late show audience the following Saturday was packed with people associated, in all kinds of ways, with playing, arranging, promoting, recording, broadcasting, packaging Traditional Music and commercial folk music.
The question presenter Gay Byrne asked me , after one of the music performances , was to give an opinion on what I had just heard. I did just that ,very briefly, and the entire studio audience went into uproar , shouted me down... led by a roar of BEGRUDGER from one distinguished member of the audience , one who speaks with an assumed authority about an art form, the expression of which lies far beyond the borders of aspiration.
Thinking that maybe I was in a national minority of maybe a half dozen other begrudgers and Mullahs of tradition like myself ( that's how another self-appointed expert described us recently in the Irish Times....Mullahs of tradition !), my phone started to ring at eight the next morning and over the next three weeks I received 168 letters and calls from traditional musicians from all over the country..all, surprisingly, not only in agreement with what I had said but adding their own views and their own emphasis -much of it very strong indeed.
At the time, it seemed to me that the body of Irish traditional performers had an almighty, long-established pain somewhere in their shared spiritual gut and it seems as if the few words I said that night stuck a finger into the wound and out came anger and frustration.
This is something I understand and sympathise with..after all if a man spends thirty years playing the fiddle for his neighbours in east Clare, he will not be impressed by one individual's personal speculation on the likely development of his music in the next century , delivered as Gospel whether by musician or Mullah.
What seems to have made this more galling still for the solo performers who contacted me, quiet , modest people who don't care for public debate, whose music comes as naturally to them as breathing, was a perceived hidden agenda.... that the innovators claiming to chart the course of traditional Irish music - their music-for generations to come, happen to belong to one or two small musical cliques, representing part of the top end of the commercial folk music sector.
The River of Sound series, in my opinion, failed to mention, let alone address, issues which are central to this debate . I'm going to stay with that series because it has brought us to this particular point and because there isn't time to deal with several other issues of relevance, for example , developements in the playing of my own instrument, the 2-row accordion, which to my mind have had an adverse impact on our music. Perhaps these other issues could be addressed on a future occasion.
A River of Sound was mounted by Philip King and Nuala O'Connor of Hummingbird Productions in co-production with BBC in Ulster and RTE. It was devised, written and presented by Prof. Micheal O Suilleabhain of Limerick University.
Finding the resources for a major series like this is a daunting task and it is to Philip King's credit that for the second time in 4 years he did it. It must be remembered that whatever any of us think about this series at present, its real and lasting use will be its archive value in years to come, despite the absence of the great majority of mature traditional performers of today.
Major co-productions, however always come with strings attached, which in this case boil down to delivering a mass audience for what is perceived by TV companies to be music of minority interest. In practise, that meant studding the series with 'big names' , mainly in the commercial music business, irrespective, unfortunately, of whether or not they had anything of substance to contribute - which in my view they clearly had not !
However, as we the license payers north and south, pay all the bills at the end of the day, the foundation principles of Public Service Broadcasting Broadcasting should be observed . The relevant principle here is that of impartiality in the treatment of controvertial issues ; the public is entitled to a balanced presentation of both sides of any and every argument .
Unfortunately this principle was totally ignored by presenter, producer and director alike, who turned out a series of illustrated lectures more appropriate to a class of music undergraduates in University College Cork than to the core audience of nearly 200,000 viewers of traditional music programmes , which RTE has cultivated for thirty years. This audience includes practically all traditional performers - a very large mumber indeed, as well as a great number of good listeners and regular , long-time followers of the music.
Now its one thing to present an imbalanced view of this subject which is dear to the hearts of a great many people ; its quite another to railroad people in the public eye and the pop music business who know little or nothing about this music into speaking up for CHANGE and DEVELOPEMENT , when they clearly illustrate ignorance as to what it is that requires change. After all, what person depending on being loved by the public in one way or another, would speak up against change, when presented with leading questions on TV ? Then, having gerrymandered this support for change, they went one further - no voice of dissent whatsoever was allowed and in the case of one maverick who departed the set questions and required answers, myself, the editorial hatchet was used on every last word of dissent. When you think of it, its quite a feat to engage two national Public Service Broadcasting organisations in the promotion of one individual's controvertial 'vision' of this art form. It has to be said, in this regard, that the corporate view of this music held by both organisations, though in different degrees - that it is culturally and technically dubious - probably blinded them to the possibility of serious controversy on such a lightweight subject.
The great traditional music innovators of the last 90 years were also deemed by the producer & presenter not to have existed, apart from unidentified short clips and photographs of some of them, used with ruthless expediency as tags of authenticity : Patrick J.Tuohy, Michael Coleman,James Morrisson, Lad O'Beirne,Ellen Galvin, Patrick Kelly. John Doherty,Frank Cassidy, Seamus Ennis,Patrick O'Keefe, Geordie Hanna,Joe Cooley, Micho Russell, Noel Hill, Iarla O Lionaird.
The main innovators working with contemporary ensemble playing also seem to have been written out of the picture, Peadar O Riada, John Beag O Flaithearta, Bill Whelan, The Chieftains, De Danann and many others.
The response I got to the Late Late show gave me heart , because the calls and letters represented a cross-section of serious musicians and singers in this country... people whom I have known for years , whose music is widely respected : Mat Molly, Liam O'Flynn, Seamus Tansey, Noel Hill, Neillidh Mulligan, Paul Brock, Iarla O Lionaird..... as well as people who have been quietly playing and singing in their own communities for most of their lives.
What really struck me about the tone and content of these letters and phone calls was their frustration, anger and upset . They expressed various degrees of sadness at changes that are taking place in the performance and interpretation of traditional music today, they expressed anger at what they saw as the selling of these changes to impressionable young musicians, they expressed frustration at the media - especially the electronic media, for slavishly promoting what they ( those who contacted me ) regard as trendy , spurious and shallow ...while at the same time demonstrating a rooted ignorance and intolerance of the wonder and beauty of the music that has been given to us. Manipulation of the media in this field by vested interests was suggested over and over.
One in particular , a musician who had achieved distinction as a solo performer in the late fifties and who is still highly regarded today put it this way : 'Mac Mahon' , he said , 'I'm afraid we've been doing it wrong all along!'
That was over a year ago and in the course of my work and travels around the country since then , my eyes have been opened to the distance that has opened up , countrywide , between the main body of traditional performers whose music and song give us unique reflections of the spirit and character of this country and the smaller group of performers who regard this music as a convenient mode of joyriding to the glitzy heights of commercial popularity and success. This is not to say that those involved in the kind of innovation that is most likely to get them there are without love for the music they use as a crutch on that road. They are not . The problem... it seems to many... is not that they love their music less but that they love their careers more.
I think there is one basic question that must be asked - what is music for, what is its value, what can it do for us ? Is it an aural carpet , a sort of ear chocolate to soothe our nerves in pubs, traffic jams or shopping centres?
Or , is it a gift to humanity of such proportions that words can do little justice to it ? Is it to be reduced , drained of the veiled voices of Ireland, electronically scrubbed clean, packaged and presented as a commercial commodity whose value is measured in record sales, TV Tam Ratings ? And in the case of public performance, is its true potential the generation of unthinking roars of conditioned applause?
What on the other hand is happening when a performance sends that shiver up the spine, brings a tear to the eye , when it sharpens and quickens both spirit and emotions to the point where the individual lonely heart is at one with what Tommy Potts called the eternal harmonies ?
If this then is the true power and purpose of music ...to bring about a sublime change in the climate of the individual mind by uniting our most tender and sensitive feelings in an orientation towards the supernatural... and I believe it is... what then is the use, the value of Irish Traditional Music in particular?
Is it right that it should be structurally mangled , speeded up out of all proportion, layered and sweetned with carpets of accompaniment, beaten into multi-cultural rythmic patterns , 'improved', developed or damaged, depending on where you're coming from....... so as to make it as digestible as possible to an international record-buying, concert going public?
It seems to me that for those who have ears to hear, this music of ours possesses the power of magic : it can put us in touch with ourselves in ways no other Irish art form can do. It can touch the pulse of ancestral memory, allowing us to redefine our dreams of what it is to be Irish. It can bring the lonely famine landscape to life, it can soothe the trauma and trouble of existence, it is possessed of the veiled eroticism of tenderness. It can adorn a moment of joy, it can sharpen a moment of sorrow. It is a gift of nature, dispensed with the abandon of wild flowers.
I am not aware of what is perceived to be wrong with it and I can say without fear of contradiction that I have sat, talked, drank and listened to all the great players and singers of the last 30 years and I have yet to hear one of them express a desire for the kind of development we're told is the prescribed path for us now to follow.
Play CD 'River of Sound' track 6- Pulsus
In my opinion, that is the path to nowhere-the dreary rattling of universal bones on a desert highway without soul, without hope. If there is an iota of Ireland there, an iota even of human warmth, then I'm a spaceman !
The late Breandan Breatnach defined Traditional Irish music as essentially the art of solo performance - a gift - to which the musician or singer devotes an apprentice of learning, especially to the great songs and song airs of Ireland. It involves a search for the local footprints of those who have gone before... and it involves a care of not trampling on them when found. It involves a search for the music and songs of one's own place, and if that is not successful , a search for the music to which the individual musical spirit can resonate.
It means having a mind-set to one's gift that is devoid of aggression, of narrow personal ambition, of political preconception - It involves an innocence, a humility in being the bearer of a gift that can infuse musician and listener with a shaft of universal joy. It involves an awareness of the natural ,internal rhythm of a piece as distinct from its speed, it involves attention to the smallest detail of a tune or a song and most importantly it involves care and discernment when deciding to add one's own embellishment to a piece of music that has its own local integrity and has stood the test of time.
It also implies a maturity of judgement ...an independent ear... an ability to question popular approaches to structure, accompaniment, ornamentation and other received ideas. It also requires a practical language of criticism. In this regard we have to think about the opinion makers in this field and consider how they make their judgements and exercise their influence.
I have looked at this process with a number of colleagues in music over a number of years and we have noticed a general unity of opinion and of purpose among those who bring this music to the public... concert promoters, broadcasters, record producers, publicity agents, managers, roadies, groupies and so on. Feeding off each others' ideas and judgements on what is a most important sector of Irish Arts - their expertise is usually based on a diet of public house philosophy, social gossip, the wisdom of record sleeve notes, the requirements of the entertainment and folk music markets.
While self-appointed experts indulge in exchanges of mutually beneficial services, favours and ego-massage , the skilled solo performer who has borne the heat of the day is expected to keep his opinions to himself, as those before him had to do in the 'sixties, or at least confine them to the kitchen corner. If he, or she should dare to step out of line, a quiet policy of exclusion and marginalisation slouches into place . If, in that instance, a musician or singer is dependant on music for a living, then its time to go into a quiet room and write a new social intercourse script.
The contemporary folk-musack boat must not be rocked....
On the basis, then of BREANDAN BREATNACh's definition of Irish Trad. Music, which is the one I care to use, I wouldn't regard the bulk of contemporary ensemble treatment of this music either as traditional or interesting . I find much of it boring, repetitive, mechanical ...cavorting and jostling its way along the entertainment superhighway in search of a comfortable stall in the market-place.
I have no great problem with the market-place , though I have great memories of the respect shown for the Arts in former East Germany, or by the GLC in London before Thatcher,for example, but I do think arrangers and composers in this particular sector should be prepared to stand on their own creative feet.
I also would have no problem with them thinking this music wasn't suitable or even good enough for the commercial folk-music market . Neither have I any problem with new music... quite the opposite, I'm all for it ....I just don't think its ethical to use the name and fame of Irish Traditional Music as a crutch or as a substitute for what cannot otherwise be achieved in the popular music market.
After all, Bill Whelan and Michael Flatley did it with the original work of Riverdance, and with no prescription that theirs' was the correct road for all of us to follow into the next millenium.
Another problem I have with ensemble treatment of traditional music is that it leaves little space for individual expression - and no amount of the kind of feigned ecstasy , either the beatific countenance or the hinge at the butt of the neck as we saw in ' River of Sound' performances can fool a poor Clare fiddler into reading pretence as passion, shadow as substance. I can speak from some experience on the dangers of being involved in public music brawls... because I hold the record of having been sacked out of four Ceili bands, not altogether for perceived ideological impurity but rather for preferring the dancer's embrace of a west Clare farmer's daughter to the tumult of the Tulla Ceili Band at full throttle !
It was at my desk in RTE that The Bothy Band first started, but I left after the hype of the first couple of public performances , because the music was regarded as a vehicle, again for the same joyriding to fame ....and again at even fuller throttle than the Tulla Ceili Band!
It seems to me there are two kinds of innovation in this field: what I would call internal and external innovation.....internal... as demonstrated by the masters of this century from Patsy Tuohy through to Micho Russell. This was the innovation of individual genius... for which our music , in my opinion ,provides full scope...innovation that will stand the test of time. The other kind seems to me to mainly a process of rotovation for handy musical tricks and compositional 'glickery' and its place in the next century could very well be the river-bed of spent fads and fashions.
Its interesting and significant that the art of sean-nos singing...which is, after all, at the heart of this tradition... hasn't as yet appeared in this whole picture. It seems to have been granted a dispensation from the merchandisers' commercial game-plan ....who as yet haven't found a way of demonstrating its useability in the market-place. It has been largely ignored , even by the general tribe of musicians ...it has yet to be brought in from the cold. The finest sean-nos singers in this country have no place in the machine which boasts of having created a delicate balance between their tradition and the developers' innovation. No amount of platitudinous rambling from Dolores Riordan, Van Morrisson or other luminaries of the pop-music world will convince Micheal O Ceannabhain in Carna that his art has a place in the shade, not to mind the sun.
This age-old tradition may yet be the target of the trend-setters ...the demi-gods who barter and trade among themselves ....Perhaps its the last field ripe for open-cast mining by the musical explorers , who ultimately might even market their wares in new territories of the Far East , that is of course, after explorers of like mind have done the appropriate ground- work in undermining the cultural habitats there.... grinding out finer brands of fodder for the commercial cannon ....
The signs are already appearing here...for example in the hysterical use of the sean-nos singing tradition as a peg , on which to hang displays of public exhibitionism which would be more appropriate to an evangelical prayer meeting in Kentucky than a warm kitchen in Carna.
Its frightening to contemplate the diminution of diversity in so many small cultures today....The fragmented European psyche isn't content with the rape of the natural resources of our planet and the resultant loss of animal and plant species diversity...now we're targeting the ancient cultural habitats as well, including our own. We're engaging in this in the belief that no one will contest the selling of everything ...and that we can rush headlong forward...without standing long enough in one place to consider the cultural territory we've come from , to leave our foot print there for our children.
Have we not considered that the great minds, including scientists, look to the past in search of answers... and not into the future ? Have we not considered the question : ' Who will teach my grand-son if my son doesn't understand ? ' It seems to me that the policy-makers in the field of so-called developement of Irish Traditional Music are patronising in the extreme in their estimation of youth.
Young people today are capable of understanding what we call The Pure Drop....and I would even suggest the marketeers are out of step with national and world trends in their crusade of dragging the youth into the shattered vision of the post-modern techno-music world. After all, if you parachute an African harp-player or a Chinese pop-singer into a Chieftains recording session , you'll increase the novelty value and sell more units of your product....but you will have engaged in the work of cultural enslavement....
At the end of this road there will then come a break in the long continuum of vision and we'll have arrived at a point where the imagination can no longer interrogate the music....where it can't even speak to it.
Nobody should misinterpret this as opposition to change or developement. I'm suggesting no such constipation of the imagination , no objection to putting electric light into a historic building, provided you don't tunnel cables through foundations, stained glass and ceiling cornices. What I am saying is this : before anyone sits down to carry out a programme of structural or cosmetic improvement on a piece of music or a song that carries the footprint of generations , that person should have the integrity to let his or her life press down into that rich soil of tradition, down through the layers of loam of the Irish experience...and it is only in honourable interaction with that soil ..and only out of the depths of that personal experience can true innovation be created.
This was part of the achievement of the late Tommy Potts of Dublin. He was one of the great innovators, but to define his art in terms of the innovation he brought to a small part of his repertoire is to misunderstand the main message on his music, which was the expression of an almost unbearable mix of emotions and passion . It was rooted in the old piping tradition , nurtured by extremes of grappling with the trials of existence... and grown out of an artistry that was marked by extremes of taste, discernment and tenderness. Of all the musicians and singers I've ever met, his was the only music that could skewer its way into the inner soul of the listener and burn his footprint into it forever.
Using an aspect of this man's art in support of the main thesis of 'A River of Sound ' is, for me, personally , an act of artistic expediency and cruelty which I found deeply upsetting. I met him in Clare when I was eight , I knew him and his music intimately until his death on March 19th 1988, and I can find not as much as a ripple of resonance between his innovations and those featured on A River of Sound.
This is how Potts played the common march-air 'Billy Byrne of Ballymanus' ....a tune from many an afternoon field of dancing competitions, spilt ice-cream, screaming babies and out-of-tune pipe bands. Its a tune so hackneyed that I've never heard it played by any solo performer or group.
Here is how Potts redeemed , redefined and adorned a tune so forelorn, so buried in bad associations that nobody would ever think of playing it. This is a poor recording that gives only a hint, and a vague hint at that, of his greatness. Eventhough it captured only an echo of his unique voice ..... he shunned recording and publicity and was a highly nervous man, it nevertheless sets a headline in internal innovation that is characterised by an exquisite sense of taste and discernment, an imagination...and a tenderness beyond words .
So where do we go from here ? We have only to look around the few acres of Temple Bar, starting here with this wonderful music centre , to realise that Ireland has at last got up off her knees ....Here is a public home for the Arts , where the wonders of modern architecture and engineering provide space for many of the best creative minds. When you think of the fate planned for Temple Bar ...a wasteland sitting on top of an underground bus-depot, planned by the same breed of social innovator that destroyed Dublin's light-rail system...we can say that as a nation we're no longer living in the hinterland of the oppressor.
I see the resurgence of popular Irish Folk Music as a part of the social fabric today...used or rather underused mainly as light entertainment for tourist and native alike. If we agree that it is an important mountain in the Irish Arts landscape , it requires the same sensitivity and care as brave people devoted to the great mountain of Mullaghmore . We mustn't reduce our musical heritage to a level compatible with tourist taste or commercial music-traffic. It provides ample scope for developement in the hands of the good solo performer , and equal scope for the inspired arranger. The fact that this country has produced singers and musicians of quality and in numbers out of all proportion to its size, tells us that the infrastructure is in place , willing and fit for challenge.
Let us look under the surface here to see where the real liberals ...and the real conservatives stand. Let's take down the FOR SALE sign now...because if you start a business , you'll soon have to decide who to feed...the hungry...or the business. Let us stop trading in the commodities of cheap paint, tactics and shape-shifting . Let us be modest and caring in the presence of music that carries the race memories of our people, music that sustained them when they had lost everything else. And remember that the people who gave us back so much of what had been lost - our own travelling community- are the very people who face the bulldozer today, and maybe the shotgun tomorrow.
Let us gaze forever forward through the lens of the powerful and majestic past and let us imagine how bleak, how barren the future Irish landscape would be without our traditional music.
Tony Mac Mahon
(traditional musician)
19 April 96
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: What do you think about all this?
I think lifting an essay off of someone's site and just copying and pasting the whole thing here is unnecessary and quite ridiculous.
At least link to the website!
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Nico
Re: What do you think about all this?
I think life is too short to read this so I did not bother
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: What do you think about all this?
i started reading it, but got absolutely bored four paragraphs in!!! Its bloody long.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by FastEddie
Re: What do you think about all this?
. . . hacker can you sum it up in three short sentices? cut it to the quick and see what happens
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by lisaniska
Re: What do you think about all this?
pretty long and boring....what's his point?Sounds like he's saying the same thing Dodger said a few days ago. But I believe dodger said it better!??!
and...
Irish music entering it's third milenium?
Huh? ya think?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
You mean "eat the rich"?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by leoj
Re: What do you think about all this?
Yeah .. eat the rich ... and wash 'em down with the verbose.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by ...
Re: What do you think about all this?
I'd rather a pint of ale.
Verbosity gives me indigestion.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by leoj
Re: What do you think about all this?
On the contary, indigestion gives me verbosity.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by lisaniska
Re: What do you think about all this?
Is this the source, WH?
Crossroads of Irish Music - Interesting reading
http://fridayharborirish.com/comhra/viewtopic.php?p=59&sid=b2de4bf37b23165461a20a59da5fc84c
Meanwhile back @ the crossroads;
http://www.ramblinghouse.org/2009/09/tony-macmahon/
Written by Fear an Ti Sep 2, 2009
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
~
if so it seems easier to read, unless you favour this yellowish background.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What do you think about all this?
I think we should play the tunes and have fun. Jeez, sorry to be so profound, but that's what indigestion does to me.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: What do you think about all this?
It's a hell of an essay. By Tony Mac Mahon, that is. Glad I read it.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by nicholas
Re: What do you think about all this?
Shanty are you suggesting a connection with dodger and hacker?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: What do you think about all this?
MacMahon rambles but he does toss us a few gems, "Here is how Potts redeemed , redefined and adorned a tune so forelorn, so buried in bad associations that nobody would ever think of playing it. This is a poor recording that gives only a hint, and a vague hint at that, of his greatness. Even though it captured only an echo of his unique voice ..... he shunned recording and publicity and was a highly nervous man, it nevertheless sets a headline in internal innovation that is characterized by an exquisite sense of taste and discernment, an imagination...and a tenderness beyond words. "
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What do you think about all this?
bazouki dave-no I'm not going to get caught up in that!"
electronically scrubbed clean, packaged and presented as a commercial commodity whose value is measured in record sales, TV Tam Ratings ? And in the case of public performance, is its true potential the generation of unthinking roars of conditioned applause..."
I thought that dodger was trying to say this(perhaps he wasn't) a couple of days ago in his 'uni degree' post...new vs old playing etc...that's all.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
Okay, yes, there is repetition, but this was a talk originally, and repetition and variation (rather like the performance of a tune, perhaps) are often at the heart of such rhetoric. I thought this was worth reading all the way through ... wish I had been there to hear the original. Love him or loathe him, the guy has guts. Interesting to hear of the cry 'begrudger' being shouted on the Late Late show. I guess there was many a begrudger who applauded that cry.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Jim Younger
Re: What do you think about all this?
fine repetition ~ a tenderness beyond words.
cheers
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What do you think about all this?
Every one has an opinion and some folks are succinct and some are not. I'm kinda bummed that I read the entire thing. It presented nothing new. It changed nor challenged my opinion at all. It made no impact whatsoever on me. It wasted my time. I feel foolish for having thought that there might be something worth while.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
cmon then geeks,
give us a twitter summary, i still dont know what this is about.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by rumpole
Re: What do you think about all this?
If a culture wishes to save its' music from external innovation, or to some, exploitation, then it could do no better than to have singing a permanent part of the day. Singing would be part of every class day in school, it would be part of everyday life at home. If one were to preserve culture by relegating it to performers, then one would have a smaller and smaller group going higher and higher until , like summit of a mountain, you will reach a peak, a singularity, with no place left to go.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by toumi
Re: What do you think about all this?
Tony, early on, says "This current phase of debate has the misleading theme label of tradition and innovation --which first of all suggests an ideological conflict between traditional musicians who are progressive and those who are backwoodsmen or purists." He must have lost his focus, because he never seemed to come back to " . . . something to say later on the use of the word purist..."
Though I still appreciate his comments about Tommy Potts.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What do you think about all this?
I guess I'm not as clever as some of you lot- I thought it was an excellent little paper, with valuable ideas, well and clearly presented.
I think part of the appeal of Tradition Irish to me is that it's not entirely based on what is commercially viable. There is something here much too valuable to put a price tag on, and it is in danger of being lost.
Read it carefully and think about it, even if you come to disagree.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Murph
Re: What do you think about all this?
Is it really in danger of being lost?
I've only just found it!
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Eòsaph
Re: What do you think about all this?
"after all if a man spends thirty years playing the fiddle for his neighbours in east Clare, he will not be impressed by one individual's personal speculation on the likely development of his music in the next century , delivered as Gospel whether by musician or Mullah." Tony MacMahon.
Cool. Tony's alright with me
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Steamwilkes
Re: What do you think about all this?
It is very easy to reply to this long and heart-felt article by making short and flippant remarks, but that really does not help this attempt to start an important debaten on this subject.
I would be interested to hear the recordings mentioned in the original article, but I suspect that I know already wht they sound like, and would not disagree too much with our original contributor.
It would be interesting to know, of all those who buy the recordings mentioned, how many are actually inspired to take up an instrument, go back to the original sources maybe, and actually make a contribution to the tradition, as opposed to those who use it merely as background music before it is discarded, like so many 'progressive' cds, to sit unwanted in the racks of ducsy charity shops.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What do you think about all this?
'dusty' charity shops......
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What do you think about all this?
I see Mr McMahon's talk was presented originally in 1996 - so we need to take that into account. 13 years have passed.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Jim Younger
Re: What do you think about all this?
I'm not being short or flippant. It takes him a very long time to say what he's trying to say. It's the same old argument and it's based on a false premise. The idea that the 'tradition' has been frozen in time for 'three millenia' (which almost made me laugh out loud when I read it) and is now threatened by the evils of commercialism and popularity is silly. And trust you me I'm no fan of commercialism or popularity. The fact is is that culture and its trappings change wheather you like it or not and nothing you can do will stop it or define it by your standards to future generations. A BIG TO DO ABOUT NOTHING.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
And things always get worse they never get better- ask any old person!
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
Hi Guernsey Pete,
If there is going to be a debate, then we need to know what the subject is, we need some kind of statement which we might be for or against. Can you use Macmahon's article as the basis for such a statement? I can't.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Bernie 29
Re: What do you think about all this?
Well at least some folks read it! cheers. Sorry if it was longer than your normal reading material, that had not occurred to me as an issue being a voracious reader of non-fiction myself .
I thought it was an excellent and thought provoking article and felt that it was worth bringing over in its entirety so it will be available on the session search feature.
I feel that he offers an important view on the music that is worth consideration by all of us who play trad, whatever our own views, and that his words might influence us in our playing and how we view the music.
Here he has some more to say on these subjects;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXTvikUGr0E&feature=channel
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: What do you think about all this?
Hey wicked- Why not tell us what YOU think.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
Here's my short essay :
I love that tune
I love playing this tune
I can't play that tune but I love listening to it
I hate that poxy tune but being a gentleman I'll play along with it.
Finally to as the great Brian once said:-
Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best...
And...always look on the bright side of life...
Always look on the light side of life...
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Free Reed
Re: What do you think about all this?
I don't agree with everything he says (I happen to like ensemble playing and accompaniment when it's done well and sensitively) but I actually liked the article. He made some valid points. I think his argument was more nuanced than just saying, "the tradition has been frozen for three millenia and now it's changing and this is bad." That's an unfair over simplification. I get the impression rather that he is arguing that when the music is smoothed over, when the rough edges are taken away, when it's made more palatable to the masses, it loses something of its character. For him (well, not just for him), the music carries in it pain and suffering, joy and passion, and he sees that being lost in commercialized music. He's not against innovation, but he only likes innovation which stays true to the character of the music as he sees it, i.e. Tommy Potts.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: What do you think about all this?
He is not saying anything that hasn't been said more succinctly on these pages. I agree with much of his sentiments; but he watches too much television. And he should read a bit about the history of the hill billies before he denigrates them.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by gam
Re: What do you think about all this trousers business?
I was too busy changing my trousers to wade through it.
And anyway thew world#s moved on 13 years since.
Take hot water bottle collecting for instance, that's different from then. I'd suggest he takes his theremin to the nearest session , chill out, have a pint of Southern Comfort and play a tune or two (whilst wearing the appropriate apparel of course.)
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: What do you think about all this?
It's utterly outrageous to post this full version of the paper presented by Tony Mac Mahon, firstly, without the permission of the author, secondly, without any reference to the remit of The Crossroads Conference, and, thirdly, without any apparent understanding of the context within which Tony delivered his thoughts.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: What do you think about all this?
What is the context within which Tony delivered his thoughts?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What do you think about all this?
http://homepage.eircom.net/~imusic/Crosbhealach96.html
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: What do you think about all this?
Summary of what Tony has been saying for the last several years.......................
" I'm so good at this, I'm the leading authority on this, I will have the last say on this, a million or so years ago I won a competition playing it (I have yet to decide whether the person who judged that day knew enough about it to make that judgement), I and I alone will decide what direction this great cultural orgasm of Irishness should take. I am burdened by the weight of my own knowledge and flabbergasted by the ignorance of the masses in not recognising my geniusness, I am Mr. Box, the King of the slow air, the owner of the pained look of constipation. Listen all ye heathens, I have made my judgement, there are rules, and I'm making them."
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Backer
Re: What do you think about all this?
The Crosbhealach link above summarized Tony's thoughts nicely in five sentences:
"Tony MacMahon noted a superficiality in new-found interest in commercial traditional music. He illustrated in a lengthy audio excerpt from River of Sound what he felt was the remoteness of (in particular Ó Súilleabháin's) modern interpretation of the music. He introduced the term 'aural carpet' as questioning of the quantity of traditional music currently used and received un-artistically in Ireland, saw commercial music's modern interpretation as 'scrubbed clean' of historic voice to appeal to ignorant audiences, holding that technically brilliant younger musicians today often lacked basic feeling. He defended the uncredited components of traditional music artistry. His view was that traditional music was being mined for ideas by commercial music, and expressed concern that future generations would lose 'the way' in the economic, popular tumult."
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by grego
Re: What do you think about all this?
That was a treat - I haven't read that for about ten years. I think the man is spot on. Nice to see the 'ear chocolate' phrase again.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: What do you think about all this?
Oh yes, and not forgetting the "hinge at the butt of the neck" remark - we enjoyed that one particularly at the time I recall. I applaud the man - bloody great speech, or maybe obituary.
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: What do you think about all this?
Presented as it is here, it is too long, yes, but it was meant as a talk, not an article. There are other places on the net where it has been discussed, and you can get the gist of it without reading it all.
And he has a point. Ensemble playing, including sessions of course, have their place - that's the interest that brings most of us here. But it is a very limited genre. The view that solo or near-solo performance is at the heart of this music is not to be dismissed easily.
If solo performance is the heart, what part of the body corresponds to FAst Reel Thrashing (capitalisation deliberate)?
# Posted on December 1st 2009 by Alex Wilding
Re: What do you think about all this?
Just a link please.
Nice read. Often really good musicans don't go into the esoteric. I am a big fan of Mr. McMahon's and appreciated reading it a while back.
The post is old news though. I think the link was posted here some time ago
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by zippydw
Re: What do you think about all this?
It's utterly outrageous to post this full version of the paper presented by Tony Mac Mahon, firstly, without the permission of the author, secondly, without any reference to the remit of The Crossroads Conference, and, thirdly, without any apparent understanding of the context within which Tony delivered his thoughts.[Quote]
perhaps youcould explain why it is outrageous?
the heart of the music in my opinion is dancing,that can be performed by one musician or several, what is important is that the musician/musicans plays at a steady speed and plays with lift
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: What do you think about all this?
I'm going to body swerve the main discussion to make a sidepoint about change.
When people say change has always happened further change is therefore nothing different this arguement serves as a fog to hide the specific issues in any given case. It is an arguement frequently used by politicians to justify progress (as percieved by them) as a fait accompli. It ignores issues about the direction and actual content of any particular change and allows them to paint any opponents as dinosaurs.
I'm not expressing an opinion on the specific changes discussed by Tony McM in this message, whether they are desirable or not.
I am expressing my dislike at the arguement: change is natural therefore (any) change (must be) is good.
Far better to discuss the particualr merits or otherwise of any indiv individual change. (Otherwise you end up with sh*te like "New" Labour).
- chris
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: What do you think about all this?
[When people say change has always happened further change is therefore nothing different this arguement serves as a fog to hide the specific issues in any given case. It is an arguement frequently used by politicians to justify progress (as percieved by them) as a fait accompli.]
Nicely put Chris. The same tactic is used by powerful interests who would have us believe that genetic engineering is the same thing as selective breeding.
MacMahon's music is powerful, honest and heartfelt. So are his opinions. I like what I've heard and read of these - occasional inexplicable gaffes (2nd rate etc.) notwithstanding.
The world needs cantankerous old men and women with strongly held convictions who aren't afraid to voice them even when they know this will draw opprobrium from the conformist masses. Long life to bollicky old Tony.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: What do you think about all this?
"I am expressing my dislike at the arguement: change is natural therefore (any) change (must be) is good."
I don't think too many hold that view............that any change is good, that's a pretty ridiculous viewpoint, but when you think about it the converse view must be equally rediculous! Mc Mahon is not the icon he thinks he is.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by Backer
Re: What do you think about all this?
And, I daresay, his view would be the 'conformist' view wouldn' it?
Leave people alone to do what they want and to enjoy the music that they enjoy. I will tell you that I like a small sliver of just about any genre of music. I try to catch what was good it before it turns/turned to crap. Not interested in making people conform to what I think is 'pure'. Most wouldn't like it.
# Posted on December 2nd 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
The basic problem is apart from the dream of making money, is that the pace of change has outstripped the old generation to generation transmission. If we give a toss about preserving the 'sound', 'the old wild mountainy sound' etc, then we should be listening to the playing of our grandparents' era, and those later who have moved on a bit. Otherwise what is miraculous in this music is going to get lost. (If it hasn't nearly been already.)
It's not uncommon to be at a large session or party where people (and mainly Irish) have gathered for this music today, and to not hear a note of anything authentic in spirit.
Just my tuppence from the uk. I think Ireland has a generation (and let's pray for two) left in it before the same thing happens.
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: What do you think about all this?
In fact most people playing today over here hate the older players in my experience.
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: What do you think about all this?
But MM is the situation you describe any different than in generations past? Did the music played in 1845 sound like the music played in 1925? And we know that that sounds quite different than what it did in 1955. The pace of change is more rapid but change has always been the constant. The past truly is the past. I think the premise of preserving anything stylistic is a myth. The tunes are good and will be around but the treatment will always vary.
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
You may be right. But I think something lovely is nearly lost. And doesn't have to be.
That is a very temperate reply, considering that I just burned my finger shifting a log and it's blown up twice the size on the pad! OW!
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: What do you think about all this?
By the way, I live for 'the old wild mountainy sound'...it's pretty elusive nowadays....
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
just learned the Windy Gap on banjo and I think it has a wild mountainy sound so I'm going to play it so it sticks in the head. Careful with that fire!
probably all are in agreement here-just don't like being lectured on the obvious by self proclaimed experts!
# Posted on December 3rd 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
nice one shanty, roll on 2055 ( . . . and i just may be alive)
# Posted on December 4th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: What do you think about all this?
The thing is Shanty, Tony isnt a self proclaimed expert. For a start Seamus Ennis declared him an expert or as good as. He is an expert, he is a part of the living tradition and we do no harm to reflect deeply on his words.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: What do you think about all this?
You're right wicked hacker, poor choice of words on my part. He is an expert on traditional music. I'm not sure what that means or qualifies one to do. Give an educated opinion? Most of the people on this board do that every day. As I grow older and dumber I realise that most experts are giving the same opinion that you can hear in a bar or at a truck stop. Academics just take longer to say things. I also think there is a lot of myth associated with Irish traditional music and I think many of the experts are in the business of protecting that myth.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by shanty
Re: What do you think about all this?
Hmm, As someone who was handed down a tradition, Surely its his obligation to preserve that tradition and to pass it on ?
What about these myths then? name a couple? I don't really see Tony as an Academic, he is a practical exponent of the art. His knowledge was gained experimentally rather than theoretically.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: What do you think about all this?
. I also think there is a lot of myth associated with Irish traditional music and I think many of the experts are in the business of protecting that myth." "
Name a few of these myths then I'm genuinely interested.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by J.D.Mc