Hello.
I know that it is not new to ask whether I can use G/D for Irish music, instead of C/G. But what if we don't use "the system"?
Consider the following situation:
- A begginer in anglo concertina (so not yet used to "the system" which means there is no difficulty in changing to another fingering)
- Wanting to play mostly Irish tunes in the keys of D and G
In what way playing a C/G according to "the system" is better than playing a G/D using a more "single row" fingering?
I have seen people saying that with G/D I have one of the following problems: a) either i am playing lower notes and may not be heard during a session or b) to play in the same octave as others I am playing almost everything with my right hand.
But this is not true if I don't use "the system" way of fingering!
The majority of irish tunes I know are in D and G, and range from note D2 up to B3 (see diagram).
With a C/G concertina we typically use "the system" by playing cross row. We play D2,E2,F#2,G2,A2 on the left side and B2,C3/C#3,D3,E3,F#3,G3,A3,B3 on the right side. That's 5 notes on the left and 8 notes on the right.
Now with a D/G concertina I can simply use the bottom (D) row (and one button from middle (G) row if I need the Cnat for the key of G). I play D2,E2,F#2,G2,A2,B2 on the left side and C3/C#3,D3,E3,F#3,G3,A3,B3 on the right side. That's 6 notes on the left and 7 notes on the right.
So this means that I can play the most common keys and notes in irish music in the same octave as usual (not lower notes) and I don't play more with my right hand (on the contrary, there is one more note on the left).
Moreover, if I want to sometimes play ALL notes on the draw (pull), I notice that all the notes I mentioned above (from D2 to B3) are available on the draw (pull) except for one: A3. I think in a C/G I dont even have so many notes available in that direction.
Given this situation, in what is a C/G system better if I want to play just in the keys of D and G? Can someone tell me? I searched all threads here and in concertina.net and I cannot find a reason for prefering C/G system either than historical reasons or habit.
Please tell me what am I not seeing right.
Thanks.
Cesar
Part of what makes playing Irish music on the Anglo concertina sound so unique is because you're tunes are mapped out based on a D scale but using an instrument designed to play in C/G primarily. This sets up a particular conundrum that the effort to deal with result in the sound we now associate with Irish concertina. Also, you shouldn't be making an effort to play a lot of notes in one direction as this will smooth over a desired effect.
I know people who play other tunings of Anglo and they end up staying away from keys like D and G in minor modes. The C/G concertina seems to serendipitously adapt itself to the common keys for Irish music very nicely.
Regarding rows: I play tunes in G, but instead of going up and down the G row I'm altering notes in the basic D scale. The D scale is the center of gravity for the Irish C/G concertina despite the fact that it seems so convoluted at first.
A friend of mine is a pal of Noel Hill and says NH worked on G/D for a long time but decided it was not the best sytem. I started as a G/D melodeon player and though G/D Anglo was the answer but realised it was better for two sided ( chord, melody ) playerss of English music or American tunes ( like Jody Kruskal does)
no ,just different,
it will give you a different style,but both are suitable for dancing,
in fact the gd will be more ryhthmical and sound more like a one row melodeon.
one row melodeon are accepted by most people [including Comhaltas] as being suitable for ITM
I think the range of the instruments is more important than the scales, in which case the C/G is superior due to most Irish tunes lying conveniently around the center of the instrument's range. That allows for a lot of fingering possibilities.
... who doesn't play either a G/D or a C/G concertina. At lkeast not publicly.
Most of us are assuming that the question "Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?" is an ellipse: the question should be "Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D for playing Irish music?" ... because rufus is right when he says they are different and equally "suitable for dancing." But the C/G has a clear edge for ITM, though perhaps not for English or contra dance or for Jody Kruskal-type tunes. What Comhaltas thinks is really irrelevant. The music pre-dates Comhaltas and will be played long after Comhaltas is gone.
and cocus is Chris Algar [Barleycorn Concertinas] who specialises in selling concertinas and flutes.
your opinion is that it is better, mine is that it is different but not necessarily better, the fact that I do not play the instrument publicly is hardly relevant.
I do not play DG, bc or c#d accordion, but I have an opinion based upon listening,even though I dont play any of them.
I repeat, one row accordion is accepted by most people as suitable for ITM, a GD concertina,will have a sound similiar to a one row accordion,and also similar to a two row DG accordion,of which Tim Edey is a noted practioner.
I think either are well suited to ITM,and really its a question of which sound you prefer,and which you find the easiest to play.,or which you feel most comfortable with.
to continue,
not all players of Irish music playing a CG anglo, have used the crossing row system.[and amongst those that do there are differences]
some of them preferred to play in the key of c or d minor for some tunes[that others played in e minor or d or g major].
Kitty Hayes and Mrs Crotty are examples,so basically they were utilising the home keys of the instrument to varying degrees,which is what could be done easily on a dg anglo
mrs crotty and some of the other older players even had there own settings of tunes which had been adapted for ease on the CG Anglo.
I believe that 2 row dg anglos,are considerably cheaper than 3o button cg anglos.
I know you guys mean well, but so far you have not presented any real advantage for the C/G for anglo in ITM. I mean, Phantom Button you say the odd mapping of the D scale makes it sound unique. But unique doesn't mean good. What you speak of is a historical reason and you want to stick to tradition. I respect that.
But if you play the D scale on the D row of a G/D what is it that makes it so different? Let's analyze:
1- The notes are in the same octave as playing in the C/G with "the system" (i.e. it goes from D2 up to B3 for example).
2- I have all the notes I need for 99% of irish tunes in D or G.
3- There is a different direction in some of the notes? That's true but what in specific makes the particular direction in the C/G notes with "the system" sound nicer than playing the D row on a D/G? Remember that "the system" was developed first as a trick to play the D scale in a C/G anglo-german concertina (when probably there still wasn't many G/D's around). Do you seriously believe that the distribution of pushes and pulls that ended up being part of this "trick" (which even involves using the left pinky) miraculously/coincidently has a nicer sounding effect than using the D row of a G/D? Well if you find it nicer it must be for the reasons I said: history and habit. Or do you have any other reason you can specify?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I woudl like to hear a "real" advantage from you (the experts). So far I'm not convinced, and I have to agree with Rufus Jameson (very nice picture on your website by the way )
I think its really you pays your money and makes your choice.
A C/G to me has a distinctive feel and sound where as a d/g sounds like you may as well bought a melodian .
Yes a DG will have more punch and if that i what you are after buy a single row D very traditional and much much cheaper .
Not worse I am not making a judgement as for better or worse that is a persons own indevidual judgement.
Each type sounds different because of the different dynamnics.
Thats what makes the CG unique as opposed to the sound of the DG which is replicated to a large extent in other boxes that are tuned similar .
In my humble opinion a DG concertina can sound very like a single row or DG melodian so why not play one of those instead ?( save your self about £1000)
This is the difference (assuming wheatstone layout):
C/G USING "THE SYSTEM":
Notes on the draw (pull): D2, F#2, A2, B2, D3, F#3, A3
Notes on the press (push): E2, G2, C3/C#3, E3, G3, B3
G/D USING THE D ROW:
Notes on the draw (pull): E2, G2, B2, C3/C#3, E3, G3, B3
Notes on the press (push): D2, F#2, A2, D3, F#3, A3
So, in fact, ALL NOTES are in the opposite direction, except for one: B2. So because notes are in the exact opposite direction, it sounds like a melodeon?
I think you find it similar to the melodeon in only one thing: being easier (for a beginner at least). Is that a bad thing (when everything else is rather equivalent)?
Cesar
You are asking me to make a value judgement for you and I cannot do that .What is good and what is easy for me will not always be the same for you
Listen to players whose sound and style you admire . Find out what they play
I was comparing DG Concertina with other DG tuned boxes.
It is not as simple as you show above for either concertina because you have more than one option for many notes and depending what notes come next may depend what you play .
Also certain grace notes and other styles of ornimentation will be either easier or more difficult depending on what system you play .
I think you need to actually have a go to make up your own mind .
i took my g/d anglo to noel hill's course years ago, and he said, in effect, "son, you'll never amount to anything playing a g/d instrument -- borrow a c/g for the duration of the course." i did so, and loved the course, but i lost every tune he gave us, because i didn't just run right out and buy a c/g. and i never did amount to anything, i guess, but i still play every day and love it. and sometimes i don't even sound too bad playing out.
i think it's true that you wind up playing more right-handedly on a g/d, but theoretically this frees up the left to add base notes, which can be cool.
and true of the c/g that (at least noel's) system really utilizes the first two fingers of each hand very efficiently, and gives you great punch.
finding my own fingerings has been one of the joys of my journey with the g/d, and i can't imagine giving those fingerings up at this stage, for a whole new set of fingerings, notwithstanding the advantages of a really reliable 'system.'
what is needed here, is a button chart of the gd anglo.[showing the duplicated notes in the keys of g and d,and theoptions for playing the same notes in diferent directions.
one advantage must be the repositioning of the low f#, that is so awkward on a cg anglo.
I suspect that as well as sounding like two harmonicas joined together, that it has scope for considerable cross rowing, that the instrument can be played more smoothly than a cg anglo as well as more rhythmically, but without a chart or an instrument in front of me, I cant be sure.
.nobody in their right minds suggest that the harmonica is unsuitable for irish music, if they do go and listen to a good player like Steve Shaw, playing a richter tuned harmonica.
"Phantom Button you say the odd mapping of the D scale makes it sound unique. But unique doesn't mean good."
By "unique" I mean the concertina sound that has propelled the instrument into becoming so popular and sought after. I think that obviously translates as "good." When I first took up the instrument and began teaching myself to play it, I had overcompensated the problems and ironed out everything "unique" as much as I could, and Noel Hill commented that I made it sound like a piano keyboard instrument. This was when I realized the sound I wanted was inherent in the instrument's design and to unlock it I needed to try to understand the system that Paddy Murphy taught Noel.
You're right Phantom Button, it's "good".
The growing popularity proves that it is good. However, it doesn't prove that it's "better".
If back in the day, the available instrument would have been the G/D instead of the C/G I'm sure irish players would have developed their techniques and ornamentations for playing their common keys (D and G) on the D/G. And chances are they would be mostly based on the first row (the D row). And that system would nowadays be the standard, having a similar level of popularity as the C/G cross row system has now.
In what way is this alternative universe worse than the real universe? Would ITM players have a harder time play tunes? Would their music sound somehow worse? Is there some note difficult to reach or some note that sounds worse because it's being pulled instead of pushed? This is what I don't know...
I have yet to hear a player emerge to demonstrate that any other system is better, but that's just according to my opinion. When I got a copy of Noel Hill and Tony Linnane's landmark recording, that was the moment I was inspired to play the contraption, so my preference for that sound is no mystery. Ultimately it's up to each individual.
I'm just observing this as an outsider but I'd liek to comment on cesarpims message:
>If back in the day, the available instrument would have been >the G/D instead of the C/G I'm sure irish players would have >developed their techniques and ornamentations for playing >their common keys (D and G) on the D/G. And chances are >they would be mostly based on the first row (the D row). And >that system would nowadays be the standard, having a >similar level of popularity as the C/G cross row system has >now.
One thing that argues against this is the fact that the "c#d" style of button box playing developed in the absence of actual c#d boxes. Players just played abiove or below concert pitch using cc# or dd# boxes with the fiddle players retuning.
I.e. irish musicians were not slaves to concert pitch.
However, this doesn't appear (to a non-concertina player anyway) to have happened to the same degree with the concertina. For the most part players appear to have not used cg to "play in c", with notable exceptions like Kitty Hayes.
I'll draw attention to the liberal sprinklings of "appears (to me)"s in the above. I'm happy to be corrected.
I know dozens of Anglo players. I don't know a single G/D Anglo player who plays in ITM sessions. If all you'll be doing is sitting at home playing some tunes at your own tempo then it probably won't matter much. But it you want to fit into the tradition then the C/G Anglo makes the most sense.
There are many instruments that are used to play ITM but you seldom see them at sessions. You can play ITM on an English concertina, too, but it is very rare to see one in a real session. If there were a real advantage to playing a G/D you'd see more of them in sessions or in use in recording.
well, why was the anglo popular in the first place, because it was cheaper.
2.
more cgs were made,so were more available
,
their popularity has nothing to do with them being better.
if someone was to make a bc concertina and market it properly, it would undoubtedly be popular, as bc players could change from one accordion to concertina.
however thereare many dealers who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and keeping the prices up of cg anglos, these people have a vested interest in discouraging, bc concertinas, gd or anything else.[that might lessen the demand for cg anglos]
a two row bc or gd would be a lot cheaper than, a 30 key cg.
of course I am not referring to Chris Algar ,who i have found[in my experience] to sell good quality instruments,and who has been very helpful.
If I was going to learn ITM on an anglo, I would choose a C/G, 'cos as far as I am aware, that's the traditional sound that I have for years heard and admired. The 'punch' mentioned above is vital. I play english system, and play a wide variety of music on it - from Bach to Bacarach (ouch), but when it comes to ITM I pick up the fiddle. I have dabbled with ITM on the English, but I just don't get the 'sound'. Easier to fool myself with a fiddle, really.
I had a dream recently where I was in Neville Crabb's shop in Liverpool Road, and picked up an anglo and damme, sir, I could play the Blarney Pilgrim straight off. "That's a C/G for you," said Neville. When I woke up I thought, right, must go and buy one, but of course Neville has been dead many a year, God rest him and the shop no longer trades.
You might miss the lovely two-finger right hand rolls if you are on the right hand side most of the time. G-minor and F tunes might not work out the easiest. You might struggle a bit when borrowing someone elses concertina.
The reason that the single Row Melodeon is recognized by Comhaltas and others as a traditional instrument is that it is a traditional instrument. Back in the day, lots of Irish homes had single row boxes in them (including my Dad's).
Ultimately though, I see little purpose in using a G/D concertina if all you are going to do is emulate a D/G box... the latter are lots cheaper (And frankly, D/G boxes are kind of fringe instruments in any case). If an instrument can't be itself there is no point in playing it.
Often, in traditional music, things are the way they are and that is it. Undoubtedly, the modern flute can play ITM as well as the simple flute (as Joanie Madden has amply demonstrated), the recorder as well as the whistle and the G/D concertina instead of the C/G. The fact is though, those instruments either are fringe instruments are not accepted at all in ITM. Each alternate instrument is going to result in slight differences to the music.
Traditional Music, by definition, is about Tradition, not innovation. Innovations are usually most accepted when they are introduced by someone who has truly mastered the music to begin with (usually on a different instrument, but sometimes on the instrument they are hoping to introduce).
I find it considerably more convenient to play a G-tune on the C-row (hopping over occasionally to even out the directions). Playing it there uses your stronger fingers more, and allows you to drop below the bottom note of the scale more easily.
Plus, since tunes tend to favor the notes in the triad (eg: for G, G, B, and d), having all those notes in the same direction can actually make it a challenge to work the bellows effectively. The best melodeon players I know love to play in the key of Amajor (on Dmaj melodeons)...
a G/D concertina might give you easier access to the key of A major (and Bdorian), but you'd just as effectively lose the convenience of C and F. The only people I know who buy G/D concertinas are those who spend a lot of time around Scots fiddlers, where the key of A-major is much more common.
However, this doesn't appear (to a non-concertina player anyway) to have happened to the same degree with the concertina. For the most part players appear to have not used cg to "play in c", with notable exceptions like Kitty Hayes.[quote]
and Mary Macnamara[to some extent]and Mrs Crotty.
Thank you Georgi, for giving me some concrete arguments that I will consider for my decision.
What most people don't seem to understand is that C/G was designed to be played in the keys of C and G. Playing in the row was the "appropriate" way of playing the instrument. ITM tradition changed this I know, but only because the popular key of D was not one of the two rows in the C/G model.
Let's keep tradition because that's the purpose of tradition... well I think that's an individual choice and I hate discrimination. My purpose with this thread is to find *objective* advantages/disadvantages (such as the ones Georgi said), not biases... That being said, I do respect all of those who play according to tradition for the purposes of giving continuity to that tradition.
It's also worth noting that if you want to learn from other concertina players, it would behoove you to have a similar instrument to theirs. If you are trying to learn to play the instrument, adding the extra variable of a different instrument to the already difficult process seems like a self-limiting move.
Virtually every decent Irish concertina player I've ever met plays a C/G primarily. Regardless of whether it seems at first like the easier to learn (I contend that it is), if you want to take advantage of the technique they have learned from their predecessors, and have to offer you, it's usually easier to walk the better-traveled path. What seems like an obvious shortcut to you now (as one who does not play concertina), could likely turn into a less-navigable mess further down the track.
Traditional Music, by definition, is about Tradition, not innovation.[quote
I do not agree, music is music whether its tradtional or classical,and innovation and change is inevitable.
otherwise fiddlers would still be playing with medieval bows, and cavemen would still be in caves, banging old bones, and knocking merry hell out of a goatskin.
as far as I am concerned,people playing ITM on any instrument if they want to is what it is all about, if someone wants to play a bc or gd concertina,and they create a new style in irish music thats great, the only losers are the people who teach the cg, and who have a vested interest in discouraging new styles,and maintaining the status quo
those people who try and stifle innovation and change they end up killing the music,preserving it in aspic., fit only as a museum piece.
I never said anything about stifling innovation in ITM. Innovation does happen in ITM. The important point however is that the traditions of the music should not be bullied by innovation. Any form of traditional music must keep itself firmly rooted in its traditions or it looses its identity as traditional music. Anyone can play Irish Tunes on whatever instrument they like and in whatever style they like, but they should be prepared for the distinct possibility that their innovations will not be accepted by the ITM community at large.
To put it another way, traditional music of any sort, whether it is ITM or Cajun, or Appalachian must at the very least exist in a necessary tension between maintaining the status quo (i.e. the tradition) and innovation. Innovation, by definition brings change.. if change happens too fast, you end up loosing the tradition that was trying to be preserved in the first place. You could have people play Irish Tunes on clarinets, electric guitars, saxaphones and trumpets, but I am willing to bet that most people (even non ITM enthusiasts) would be hard pressed to identify it as ITM. Thats not saying it wouldn't be good music, just that it wouldn't be good Irish Traditional Music. There is a difference.
Cesarpim,
I am very well aware of how the C/G Concertina was designed. It is my main instrument.
I know you are looking for objective reasons for everything, but I think it is fair to say that when discussing it in the context of ITM, something as seemingly subjective as whether the instrument fits in the tradition or not are in fact a reasonably objective issue. In fact, even reasonably objective issues, such as cross rowing on a C/G concertina allows you to work with your strongest fingers is also somewhat subjective (after all, I am sure there are some people whose dominant hand ring finger is stronger than their non-dominant index finger).
If we try to look at the issue purely from such objective points of view, then we quickly end up in a world where people might end up saying that you are better off playing a button accordion (which allows you to use your dominant hand for all of the melody), or rearranging the keyboard of the Anglo so that you can play most tunes on the Anglo purely with your right hand and only use your left for octaves and chords.
Innovation is fine, but unless the tradition follows it, the innovator is left out in the cultural desert, hollering into the dusty void that "The sitar is a perfectly legitimate Irish Traditional instrument! You should all play one too!"
I rather think that if you want to play music on an electric guitar, English Concertina, or a silver flute, you're welcome to... But it's worth mentioning that you're not really changing the tradition unless the other traditional musicians follow your lead... and if you're not considered one of the "traditional musicians whose lead is worth following", you're not likely to attract many subscribers to your innovation...
Introducing yourself as an innovator doesn't really endear you to the traddies. ("Hello! You don't know me, but I'm from Mongolia, and I've decided to come over and rearrange your livingroom furniture!")
If it's Irish traditional music you like, and you're coming into it from the outside (like many of us), it behooves you to try to fit into it before you try to change it. If Noel Hill were to switch over to an G/D concertina, THAT might turn some heads. If someone like me were to make the same switch, not so much.
What if........the third row was an extra key, you would have enough notes to play most keys and you could play any way you wanted. I really don't like the third row of my concertina, but I use it anyway to play in F and it's modes. It seems like When I play in F on my C/G concertina that I have more long strings of either push or pull notes and run out of air and have to pause between phrases. Of course I am a pure beginner at the instrument with no teacher and I don't even personally know any other players.
Earl,
I suppose one could add a third row to the concertina... if we stick to the logic of G/C... then the logical row would be F.. but that wouldn't work because you would get an A#/Bb but nothing else that was useful... An alternative would be, perversely, make the third row a D/G in the key of C... then you would have a D/G/C. That actually might work reasonably well for ITM regardless of how you might want to play it.. but key of A would be out of the question. Alternately, I suppose you could go with the key of B.. that would give you all the accidentals, but it would be hard to get to them when playing on the C row (because they would be too close to notes before and after them making a lot of work for your fingers).
Over all, I think there is a lot to recommend the Jefferies or Wheatstone layouts for the third row... there are tweaks that could be made for ITM, but those layouts in general work pretty well.
I second Phantom Button's recommendation about getting a teacher, or barring that, getting the Mad for Trad CD-Rom and going to some of the week long schools... Noel Hill's, East Durham or Augusta (if you are in the USA), or Will Clancy in Ireland (I am sure there are others...).
I don't think anyone was talking about a two-row C/G except in the context of history. You don't have a C# on such an instrument, which may be why the older generation of players often played D tunes in the key of C.
Mix, nobody was talking about 2-row instruments. Basically all concertinas (outside of the few old ones) have 3 rows, where the third row is full of extra notes that (mostly) aren't in the C or G scales. This lets you play all the normal keys, though as you get farther from C/G, you have to use the outside row (or whatever other spare buttons the concertina might have) more and more...
Bill_McHale, you say that "if change happens too fast, you end up loosing the tradition". True, but using the D row of a G/D anglo is NOT change happening too fast, it's NOT like playing ITM in a saxophone or clarinet or whatever. Furthermore, objective reasons continue to be the most important factor for taking good decisions (even though subjective reasons should also not be ignored).
Georgi, a few things I would like to make clear:
1- I'm not a newcomer to ITM (only to concertina).
2- I am not trying to change the tradition and I'm not trying to make others follow me. I'm just trying to fit nicely into the tradition in what may be an acceptable method of playing.
3- I know a person from England who plays ITM in a metallic flute. She is extremely good and I don't think anyone could ever say that what she plays is not ITM. Moreover, as already mentioned, Kitty Hayes plays ITM on a G/D using the original keys, so it wouldn't be ME innovating. The method already exists.
Although the method I propose is big change for the player (it's a whole new ball game), it is not SUCH a big change for those who listen. Of course good anglo players will be able to hear the differences but I don't think it would be differences that would make it jump out of the ITM sound and into the desert
And it would be a quite easier method, or do you anticipate any difficulties (besides those already pointed by Georgi)?
Cesar- Kitty Hayes doesn't play anything any more. When she was alive she played a C/G in the home keys.
I can' t believe you are serious about all this. many accomplished ITM Anglo players (as distinct from the pretenders who play ETM or English concertina or melodeon) have told you that a C/G is the better choice- and they have offered you many reasons why they say this. Why are you still going on about it? Enjoying winding people up? Like seeing your name on the net?
focus, I find your post slightly insulting to me, and also to players of different styles or different instruments. Moreover I don't think it's a post that adds anything of value to the discussion so I don't intend to answer to what you say.
Btw, I noticed you changed your nick from cocus to focus. Was it because in the posts above, people here identified you as Chris Algar from Barleycorn Concertinas? I see you have financial interests in the outcome of this discussion...
Kitty Hayes might have played a G/D, but I understand she didn't really like it. On the recording I'm listening to now, it sounds like she's playing largely in C on the C-row of a C/G.
You are, of course, welcome to invest your thousands of dollars in whatever instrument you wish (and honestly the difference between G/D and C/G isn't *that* huge), but I think you're dramatically overestimating the advantage that playing along single rows on a G/D gives you, and you're not really acknowledging the very likely possibility that the whopping majority of people who actually play the instrument probably have reasons for choosing C/G beyond "history and habit", regardless of whether they are either able or willing to articulate them in this forum.
You're also probably getting a bit of pushback to the G/D idea from those (myself included) who feel that there's actual value to be had from taking the traditional approach, even if it seems like there might be an easier way of going about it. This is a common theme here, whether it be English concertinas, silver flutes, or even sheet music.
Georgi, I didn't yet make a decision. My purpose is to gather as many opinions as I can from both sides of the balance.
Obviously there are more opinions in favor of the traditional system, so I may appear to be acting as devil's advocate, but it is only to try to obtain more clear info about those preferences.
In the end some of you guys gave me a couple of relevant reasons here, such as the use of our "strong fingers" and the ease of ornamentation. Do these reasons compensate for the complexity of the traditional system? Well that is something that requires some thought and in the end it's up to the investor, as you say
Finally, I want to thank all of you who provided valuable info.
If you want to play rimpty-tumpty morris G/D
If you want to play in an English session G/D
If you want to sing and play chords - probably G/D
If you want to play Irish C/G
If you want to be heard in a session C/G
If you want to really
p155 meolodion players off in an English session C/G
If you want to play fast C/G
If you want to play really fast - English concertina
i.e. learn both
cesarpim, while I appreciate your discussion topic, I have to disagree with one of your assertions: "...the complexity of the traditional system..." It's not complex, it just is what it is, if you practice any system it becomes second nature and eventually nearly effortless over time. Even if you choose to go with G/D, there will almost certainly be tunes that will be as complex as on the C/G, the problem is that if you want any help sorting them out, you'll most likely be on your own...
You're right I believe we can get used to almost anything in a way that it becomes second nature. But when I talk about complexity of the traditional system, I have mostly the following thing in mind:
The low F# is in a bit odd position that has to be reached by our pinkie. I know it's just a matter of habit, but for example, imagine the reel "Teetotalers" or the hornpipe "Off to California". In these tunes we have to make a quick sequence of the notes: D E F# G
If we want to play these tunes fast, do you think using the traditional C/G system we can do it as fast as with a G/D system using the 1st row? Even with practice? We cannot even resort to choosing all notes on the draw (pull) because in the traditional system there is no low E on the pull...
cesarpim, I'm a bit like you. Before buying anything I tend to question received opinion and often go out on a limb because I think I understand the issues better than those that have trod the path before me, because after all they are slavishly doing what they have been told and unthinkingly following conventional wisdom, and I have superior brainpower.
Whenever I do that though it turns out to be a mistake. My advice: get a C/G and get on with it.
"I've heard those tunes played up to speed by multiple concertina players down the years...
... all of whom were playing the CG (apart from one English conc. player).
That run of notes may be awkward on the conc. There are always sequences of notes that are awkward on any instrument. There are sequences of notes that are impossible on some instruments.
C and C# are weak notes on the flute and whistle, difficult to ornament, and you can't go below D.
The high b is awkard on a banjo when you are learning, wouldn't it be better to tune it differently?
etc etc etc
But people play those instruments anyway and quite effectively. You just have to learn to play the parts that are awkward at first, or to adapt the tune in a manner suitable to both your instrument and the tune. That's why they call it "learning"
tinamatt commented about 40 posts up (hey, I only just found this thread!):
" i took my g/d anglo to noel hill's course years ago, ...
"finding my own fingerings has been one of the joys of my journey with the g/d, and i can't imagine giving those fingerings up at this stage, for a whole new set of fingerings, notwithstanding the advantages of a really reliable 'system.'"
Good to hear he is still at it! I was sitting there at Noel Hill school when this exchange took place, and my impression was that Noel was willing to teach Matt the tunes on either system, but did a demo of a tune on both to show that what he taught was more applicable on C/G. Matt didn't mention that he already owned a pretty good-sounding G/D concertina at the time. A relevant detail! That might be enough to keep me on that system too if I had one. I ended up buying the C/G that Matt borrowed. It was my first real concertina (I had an Italian clowncertina then) and I still like it and use it. It is currently on loan to a friend who is a beginner. It has mojo, and Matt is part of that history!
Another year that I was at Noel Hill's class he willingly taught all the tunes to a G/D player who had other reasons (already a singer) for staying with that system. Noel would shoo us all off at the end of class, borrow the student's concertina, and show him how he could finger the tune. For that matter, players of English concertina, MacCann duet concertina, and Hayden duet concertina have attended over the years. They get to work out their own ornaments, if any.
Horse for courses, it will be fun no matter what you do. Heck, play them all!
Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Hello.
I know that it is not new to ask whether I can use G/D for Irish music, instead of C/G. But what if we don't use "the system"?
Consider the following situation:
- A begginer in anglo concertina (so not yet used to "the system" which means there is no difficulty in changing to another fingering)
- Wanting to play mostly Irish tunes in the keys of D and G
In what way playing a C/G according to "the system" is better than playing a G/D using a more "single row" fingering?
I have seen people saying that with G/D I have one of the following problems: a) either i am playing lower notes and may not be heard during a session or b) to play in the same octave as others I am playing almost everything with my right hand.
But this is not true if I don't use "the system" way of fingering!
Consider this diagram that is useful to reference which octave I am talking about: http://www.concertina.net/ms_finger_layouts.html
The majority of irish tunes I know are in D and G, and range from note D2 up to B3 (see diagram).
With a C/G concertina we typically use "the system" by playing cross row. We play D2,E2,F#2,G2,A2 on the left side and B2,C3/C#3,D3,E3,F#3,G3,A3,B3 on the right side. That's 5 notes on the left and 8 notes on the right.
Now with a D/G concertina I can simply use the bottom (D) row (and one button from middle (G) row if I need the Cnat for the key of G). I play D2,E2,F#2,G2,A2,B2 on the left side and C3/C#3,D3,E3,F#3,G3,A3,B3 on the right side. That's 6 notes on the left and 7 notes on the right.
So this means that I can play the most common keys and notes in irish music in the same octave as usual (not lower notes) and I don't play more with my right hand (on the contrary, there is one more note on the left).
Moreover, if I want to sometimes play ALL notes on the draw (pull), I notice that all the notes I mentioned above (from D2 to B3) are available on the draw (pull) except for one: A3. I think in a C/G I dont even have so many notes available in that direction.
Given this situation, in what is a C/G system better if I want to play just in the keys of D and G? Can someone tell me? I searched all threads here and in concertina.net and I cannot find a reason for prefering C/G system either than historical reasons or habit.
Please tell me what am I not seeing right.
Thanks.
Cesar
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Part of what makes playing Irish music on the Anglo concertina sound so unique is because you're tunes are mapped out based on a D scale but using an instrument designed to play in C/G primarily. This sets up a particular conundrum that the effort to deal with result in the sound we now associate with Irish concertina. Also, you shouldn't be making an effort to play a lot of notes in one direction as this will smooth over a desired effect.
I know people who play other tunings of Anglo and they end up staying away from keys like D and G in minor modes. The C/G concertina seems to serendipitously adapt itself to the common keys for Irish music very nicely.
Regarding rows: I play tunes in G, but instead of going up and down the G row I'm altering notes in the basic D scale. The D scale is the center of gravity for the Irish C/G concertina despite the fact that it seems so convoluted at first.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Well said PB. I think part of it is the "musical Rubik's cube" effect, the mixture of logic and illogic that makes C/G such fun to play, at any level.
Much as I like the sound of the lower toned Anglos, (and I don't have a G/D) one slightly feels they might be a "double handed melodeon."
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
A friend of mine is a pal of Noel Hill and says NH worked on G/D for a long time but decided it was not the best sytem. I started as a G/D melodeon player and though G/D Anglo was the answer but realised it was better for two sided ( chord, melody ) playerss of English music or American tunes ( like Jody Kruskal does)
For ITM I have chosen C/G and love it
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Yes.
Actually.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by David Levine
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
no ,just different,
it will give you a different style,but both are suitable for dancing,
in fact the gd will be more ryhthmical and sound more like a one row melodeon.
one row melodeon are accepted by most people [including Comhaltas] as being suitable for ITM
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I think the range of the instruments is more important than the scales, in which case the C/G is superior due to most Irish tunes lying conveniently around the center of the instrument's range. That allows for a lot of fingering possibilities.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by mcdevincabe
Who is rufus jameson?
Rufus J is www.dickmiles.com
... who doesn't play either a G/D or a C/G concertina. At lkeast not publicly.
Most of us are assuming that the question "Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?" is an ellipse: the question should be "Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D for playing Irish music?" ... because rufus is right when he says they are different and equally "suitable for dancing." But the C/G has a clear edge for ITM, though perhaps not for English or contra dance or for Jody Kruskal-type tunes. What Comhaltas thinks is really irrelevant. The music pre-dates Comhaltas and will be played long after Comhaltas is gone.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by David Levine
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
and cocus is Chris Algar [Barleycorn Concertinas] who specialises in selling concertinas and flutes.
your opinion is that it is better, mine is that it is different but not necessarily better, the fact that I do not play the instrument publicly is hardly relevant.
I do not play DG, bc or c#d accordion, but I have an opinion based upon listening,even though I dont play any of them.
I repeat, one row accordion is accepted by most people as suitable for ITM, a GD concertina,will have a sound similiar to a one row accordion,and also similar to a two row DG accordion,of which Tim Edey is a noted practioner.
I think either are well suited to ITM,and really its a question of which sound you prefer,and which you find the easiest to play.,or which you feel most comfortable with.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
( gets the pop corn in and a bottle of wine to watch this one )
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
to continue,
not all players of Irish music playing a CG anglo, have used the crossing row system.[and amongst those that do there are differences]
some of them preferred to play in the key of c or d minor for some tunes[that others played in e minor or d or g major].
Kitty Hayes and Mrs Crotty are examples,so basically they were utilising the home keys of the instrument to varying degrees,which is what could be done easily on a dg anglo
mrs crotty and some of the other older players even had there own settings of tunes which had been adapted for ease on the CG Anglo.
I believe that 2 row dg anglos,are considerably cheaper than 3o button cg anglos.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
above should read 2 row gd anglos.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I know you guys mean well, but so far you have not presented any real advantage for the C/G for anglo in ITM. I mean, Phantom Button you say the odd mapping of the D scale makes it sound unique. But unique doesn't mean good. What you speak of is a historical reason and you want to stick to tradition. I respect that.
)
But if you play the D scale on the D row of a G/D what is it that makes it so different? Let's analyze:
1- The notes are in the same octave as playing in the C/G with "the system" (i.e. it goes from D2 up to B3 for example).
2- I have all the notes I need for 99% of irish tunes in D or G.
3- There is a different direction in some of the notes? That's true but what in specific makes the particular direction in the C/G notes with "the system" sound nicer than playing the D row on a D/G? Remember that "the system" was developed first as a trick to play the D scale in a C/G anglo-german concertina (when probably there still wasn't many G/D's around). Do you seriously believe that the distribution of pushes and pulls that ended up being part of this "trick" (which even involves using the left pinky) miraculously/coincidently has a nicer sounding effect than using the D row of a G/D? Well if you find it nicer it must be for the reasons I said: history and habit. Or do you have any other reason you can specify?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I woudl like to hear a "real" advantage from you (the experts). So far I'm not convinced, and I have to agree with Rufus Jameson (very nice picture on your website by the way
Cesar
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I think its really you pays your money and makes your choice.
A C/G to me has a distinctive feel and sound where as a d/g sounds like you may as well bought a melodian .
Yes a DG will have more punch and if that i what you are after buy a single row D very traditional and much much cheaper .
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
dave
Are you saying that the only reason why a melodeon sounds "worse" than an anglo for ITM, is because of the directions of some of the notes?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Not worse I am not making a judgement as for better or worse that is a persons own indevidual judgement.
Each type sounds different because of the different dynamnics.
Thats what makes the CG unique as opposed to the sound of the DG which is replicated to a large extent in other boxes that are tuned similar .
In my humble opinion a DG concertina can sound very like a single row or DG melodian so why not play one of those instead ?( save your self about £1000)
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
This is the difference (assuming wheatstone layout):
C/G USING "THE SYSTEM":
Notes on the draw (pull): D2, F#2, A2, B2, D3, F#3, A3
Notes on the press (push): E2, G2, C3/C#3, E3, G3, B3
G/D USING THE D ROW:
Notes on the draw (pull): E2, G2, B2, C3/C#3, E3, G3, B3
Notes on the press (push): D2, F#2, A2, D3, F#3, A3
So, in fact, ALL NOTES are in the opposite direction, except for one: B2. So because notes are in the exact opposite direction, it sounds like a melodeon?
I think you find it similar to the melodeon in only one thing: being easier (for a beginner at least). Is that a bad thing (when everything else is rather equivalent)?
Cesar
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Cesar
You are asking me to make a value judgement for you and I cannot do that .What is good and what is easy for me will not always be the same for you
Listen to players whose sound and style you admire . Find out what they play
I was comparing DG Concertina with other DG tuned boxes.
It is not as simple as you show above for either concertina because you have more than one option for many notes and depending what notes come next may depend what you play .
Also certain grace notes and other styles of ornimentation will be either easier or more difficult depending on what system you play .
I think you need to actually have a go to make up your own mind .
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
i took my g/d anglo to noel hill's course years ago, and he said, in effect, "son, you'll never amount to anything playing a g/d instrument -- borrow a c/g for the duration of the course." i did so, and loved the course, but i lost every tune he gave us, because i didn't just run right out and buy a c/g. and i never did amount to anything, i guess, but i still play every day and love it. and sometimes i don't even sound too bad playing out.
i think it's true that you wind up playing more right-handedly on a g/d, but theoretically this frees up the left to add base notes, which can be cool.
and true of the c/g that (at least noel's) system really utilizes the first two fingers of each hand very efficiently, and gives you great punch.
finding my own fingerings has been one of the joys of my journey with the g/d, and i can't imagine giving those fingerings up at this stage, for a whole new set of fingerings, notwithstanding the advantages of a really reliable 'system.'
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by 'tinamatt
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
what is needed here, is a button chart of the gd anglo.[showing the duplicated notes in the keys of g and d,and theoptions for playing the same notes in diferent directions.
one advantage must be the repositioning of the low f#, that is so awkward on a cg anglo.
I suspect that as well as sounding like two harmonicas joined together, that it has scope for considerable cross rowing, that the instrument can be played more smoothly than a cg anglo as well as more rhythmically, but without a chart or an instrument in front of me, I cant be sure.
.nobody in their right minds suggest that the harmonica is unsuitable for irish music, if they do go and listen to a good player like Steve Shaw, playing a richter tuned harmonica.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
"Phantom Button you say the odd mapping of the D scale makes it sound unique. But unique doesn't mean good."
By "unique" I mean the concertina sound that has propelled the instrument into becoming so popular and sought after. I think that obviously translates as "good." When I first took up the instrument and began teaching myself to play it, I had overcompensated the problems and ironed out everything "unique" as much as I could, and Noel Hill commented that I made it sound like a piano keyboard instrument. This was when I realized the sound I wanted was inherent in the instrument's design and to unlock it I needed to try to understand the system that Paddy Murphy taught Noel.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
You're right Phantom Button, it's "good".
The growing popularity proves that it is good. However, it doesn't prove that it's "better".
If back in the day, the available instrument would have been the G/D instead of the C/G I'm sure irish players would have developed their techniques and ornamentations for playing their common keys (D and G) on the D/G. And chances are they would be mostly based on the first row (the D row). And that system would nowadays be the standard, having a similar level of popularity as the C/G cross row system has now.
In what way is this alternative universe worse than the real universe? Would ITM players have a harder time play tunes? Would their music sound somehow worse? Is there some note difficult to reach or some note that sounds worse because it's being pulled instead of pushed? This is what I don't know...
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I have yet to hear a player emerge to demonstrate that any other system is better, but that's just according to my opinion. When I got a copy of Noel Hill and Tony Linnane's landmark recording, that was the moment I was inspired to play the contraption, so my preference for that sound is no mystery. Ultimately it's up to each individual.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I'm just observing this as an outsider but I'd liek to comment on cesarpims message:
>If back in the day, the available instrument would have been >the G/D instead of the C/G I'm sure irish players would have >developed their techniques and ornamentations for playing >their common keys (D and G) on the D/G. And chances are >they would be mostly based on the first row (the D row). And >that system would nowadays be the standard, having a >similar level of popularity as the C/G cross row system has >now.
One thing that argues against this is the fact that the "c#d" style of button box playing developed in the absence of actual c#d boxes. Players just played abiove or below concert pitch using cc# or dd# boxes with the fiddle players retuning.
I.e. irish musicians were not slaves to concert pitch.
However, this doesn't appear (to a non-concertina player anyway) to have happened to the same degree with the concertina. For the most part players appear to have not used cg to "play in c", with notable exceptions like Kitty Hayes.
I'll draw attention to the liberal sprinklings of "appears (to me)"s in the above. I'm happy to be corrected.
- Chris
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
More C/G Anglo players than G/D players
I know dozens of Anglo players. I don't know a single G/D Anglo player who plays in ITM sessions. If all you'll be doing is sitting at home playing some tunes at your own tempo then it probably won't matter much. But it you want to fit into the tradition then the C/G Anglo makes the most sense.
There are many instruments that are used to play ITM but you seldom see them at sessions. You can play ITM on an English concertina, too, but it is very rare to see one in a real session. If there were a real advantage to playing a G/D you'd see more of them in sessions or in use in recording.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by David Levine
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Hi cocus you are not Chris Algar are you? I thought he was coco (on eBay) Someone earlier in this thread said you were
Ther's a similar thread on concertina net at the moment
http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10361&st=0&gopid=104048&;
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
well, why was the anglo popular in the first place, because it was cheaper.
2.
more cgs were made,so were more available
,
their popularity has nothing to do with them being better.
if someone was to make a bc concertina and market it properly, it would undoubtedly be popular, as bc players could change from one accordion to concertina.
however thereare many dealers who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, and keeping the prices up of cg anglos, these people have a vested interest in discouraging, bc concertinas, gd or anything else.[that might lessen the demand for cg anglos]
a two row bc or gd would be a lot cheaper than, a 30 key cg.
of course I am not referring to Chris Algar ,who i have found[in my experience] to sell good quality instruments,and who has been very helpful.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
If I was going to learn ITM on an anglo, I would choose a C/G, 'cos as far as I am aware, that's the traditional sound that I have for years heard and admired. The 'punch' mentioned above is vital. I play english system, and play a wide variety of music on it - from Bach to Bacarach (ouch), but when it comes to ITM I pick up the fiddle. I have dabbled with ITM on the English, but I just don't get the 'sound'. Easier to fool myself with a fiddle, really.
I had a dream recently where I was in Neville Crabb's shop in Liverpool Road, and picked up an anglo and damme, sir, I could play the Blarney Pilgrim straight off. "That's a C/G for you," said Neville. When I woke up I thought, right, must go and buy one, but of course Neville has been dead many a year, God rest him and the shop no longer trades.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Jim Younger
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
You might miss the lovely two-finger right hand rolls if you are on the right hand side most of the time. G-minor and F tunes might not work out the easiest. You might struggle a bit when borrowing someone elses concertina.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by snorre
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Just a couple of thoughts on this thread...
The reason that the single Row Melodeon is recognized by Comhaltas and others as a traditional instrument is that it is a traditional instrument. Back in the day, lots of Irish homes had single row boxes in them (including my Dad's).
Ultimately though, I see little purpose in using a G/D concertina if all you are going to do is emulate a D/G box... the latter are lots cheaper (And frankly, D/G boxes are kind of fringe instruments in any case). If an instrument can't be itself there is no point in playing it.
Often, in traditional music, things are the way they are and that is it. Undoubtedly, the modern flute can play ITM as well as the simple flute (as Joanie Madden has amply demonstrated), the recorder as well as the whistle and the G/D concertina instead of the C/G. The fact is though, those instruments either are fringe instruments are not accepted at all in ITM. Each alternate instrument is going to result in slight differences to the music.
Traditional Music, by definition, is about Tradition, not innovation. Innovations are usually most accepted when they are introduced by someone who has truly mastered the music to begin with (usually on a different instrument, but sometimes on the instrument they are hoping to introduce).
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by bill_mchale
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Cesar,
Having the right notes is only part of the issue.
I find it considerably more convenient to play a G-tune on the C-row (hopping over occasionally to even out the directions). Playing it there uses your stronger fingers more, and allows you to drop below the bottom note of the scale more easily.
Plus, since tunes tend to favor the notes in the triad (eg: for G, G, B, and d), having all those notes in the same direction can actually make it a challenge to work the bellows effectively. The best melodeon players I know love to play in the key of Amajor (on Dmaj melodeons)...
a G/D concertina might give you easier access to the key of A major (and Bdorian), but you'd just as effectively lose the convenience of C and F. The only people I know who buy G/D concertinas are those who spend a lot of time around Scots fiddlers, where the key of A-major is much more common.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Georgi
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
However, this doesn't appear (to a non-concertina player anyway) to have happened to the same degree with the concertina. For the most part players appear to have not used cg to "play in c", with notable exceptions like Kitty Hayes.[quote]
and Mary Macnamara[to some extent]and Mrs Crotty.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Thank you Georgi, for giving me some concrete arguments that I will consider for my decision.
What most people don't seem to understand is that C/G was designed to be played in the keys of C and G. Playing in the row was the "appropriate" way of playing the instrument. ITM tradition changed this I know, but only because the popular key of D was not one of the two rows in the C/G model.
Let's keep tradition because that's the purpose of tradition... well I think that's an individual choice and I hate discrimination. My purpose with this thread is to find *objective* advantages/disadvantages (such as the ones Georgi said), not biases... That being said, I do respect all of those who play according to tradition for the purposes of giving continuity to that tradition.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
It's also worth noting that if you want to learn from other concertina players, it would behoove you to have a similar instrument to theirs. If you are trying to learn to play the instrument, adding the extra variable of a different instrument to the already difficult process seems like a self-limiting move.
Virtually every decent Irish concertina player I've ever met plays a C/G primarily. Regardless of whether it seems at first like the easier to learn (I contend that it is), if you want to take advantage of the technique they have learned from their predecessors, and have to offer you, it's usually easier to walk the better-traveled path. What seems like an obvious shortcut to you now (as one who does not play concertina), could likely turn into a less-navigable mess further down the track.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Georgi
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Traditional Music, by definition, is about Tradition, not innovation.[quote
I do not agree, music is music whether its tradtional or classical,and innovation and change is inevitable.
otherwise fiddlers would still be playing with medieval bows, and cavemen would still be in caves, banging old bones, and knocking merry hell out of a goatskin.
as far as I am concerned,people playing ITM on any instrument if they want to is what it is all about, if someone wants to play a bc or gd concertina,and they create a new style in irish music thats great, the only losers are the people who teach the cg, and who have a vested interest in discouraging new styles,and maintaining the status quo
those people who try and stifle innovation and change they end up killing the music,preserving it in aspic., fit only as a museum piece.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I never said anything about stifling innovation in ITM. Innovation does happen in ITM. The important point however is that the traditions of the music should not be bullied by innovation. Any form of traditional music must keep itself firmly rooted in its traditions or it looses its identity as traditional music. Anyone can play Irish Tunes on whatever instrument they like and in whatever style they like, but they should be prepared for the distinct possibility that their innovations will not be accepted by the ITM community at large.
To put it another way, traditional music of any sort, whether it is ITM or Cajun, or Appalachian must at the very least exist in a necessary tension between maintaining the status quo (i.e. the tradition) and innovation. Innovation, by definition brings change.. if change happens too fast, you end up loosing the tradition that was trying to be preserved in the first place. You could have people play Irish Tunes on clarinets, electric guitars, saxaphones and trumpets, but I am willing to bet that most people (even non ITM enthusiasts) would be hard pressed to identify it as ITM. Thats not saying it wouldn't be good music, just that it wouldn't be good Irish Traditional Music. There is a difference.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by bill_mchale
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Cesarpim,
I am very well aware of how the C/G Concertina was designed. It is my main instrument.
I know you are looking for objective reasons for everything, but I think it is fair to say that when discussing it in the context of ITM, something as seemingly subjective as whether the instrument fits in the tradition or not are in fact a reasonably objective issue. In fact, even reasonably objective issues, such as cross rowing on a C/G concertina allows you to work with your strongest fingers is also somewhat subjective (after all, I am sure there are some people whose dominant hand ring finger is stronger than their non-dominant index finger).
If we try to look at the issue purely from such objective points of view, then we quickly end up in a world where people might end up saying that you are better off playing a button accordion (which allows you to use your dominant hand for all of the melody), or rearranging the keyboard of the Anglo so that you can play most tunes on the Anglo purely with your right hand and only use your left for octaves and chords.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by bill_mchale
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
oh no, not ergonomics.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Innovation is fine, but unless the tradition follows it, the innovator is left out in the cultural desert, hollering into the dusty void that "The sitar is a perfectly legitimate Irish Traditional instrument! You should all play one too!"
I rather think that if you want to play music on an electric guitar, English Concertina, or a silver flute, you're welcome to... But it's worth mentioning that you're not really changing the tradition unless the other traditional musicians follow your lead... and if you're not considered one of the "traditional musicians whose lead is worth following", you're not likely to attract many subscribers to your innovation...
Introducing yourself as an innovator doesn't really endear you to the traddies. ("Hello! You don't know me, but I'm from Mongolia, and I've decided to come over and rearrange your livingroom furniture!")
If it's Irish traditional music you like, and you're coming into it from the outside (like many of us), it behooves you to try to fit into it before you try to change it. If Noel Hill were to switch over to an G/D concertina, THAT might turn some heads. If someone like me were to make the same switch, not so much.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Georgi
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
What if........the third row was an extra key, you would have enough notes to play most keys and you could play any way you wanted. I really don't like the third row of my concertina, but I use it anyway to play in F and it's modes. It seems like When I play in F on my C/G concertina that I have more long strings of either push or pull notes and run out of air and have to pause between phrases. Of course I am a pure beginner at the instrument with no teacher and I don't even personally know any other players.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Earl!
Off to the desert with you!
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Georgi
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
"Of course I am a pure beginner at the instrument with no teacher and I don't even personally know any other players."
I spun my wheels for the first 5 years like this--find a teacher.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Earl,
I suppose one could add a third row to the concertina... if we stick to the logic of G/C... then the logical row would be F.. but that wouldn't work because you would get an A#/Bb but nothing else that was useful... An alternative would be, perversely, make the third row a D/G in the key of C... then you would have a D/G/C. That actually might work reasonably well for ITM regardless of how you might want to play it.. but key of A would be out of the question. Alternately, I suppose you could go with the key of B.. that would give you all the accidentals, but it would be hard to get to them when playing on the C row (because they would be too close to notes before and after them making a lot of work for your fingers).
Over all, I think there is a lot to recommend the Jefferies or Wheatstone layouts for the third row... there are tweaks that could be made for ITM, but those layouts in general work pretty well.
I second Phantom Button's recommendation about getting a teacher, or barring that, getting the Mad for Trad CD-Rom and going to some of the week long schools... Noel Hill's, East Durham or Augusta (if you are in the USA), or Will Clancy in Ireland (I am sure there are others...).
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by bill_mchale
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I've been reading this thread with some interest - but with only a partial understanding.
Could someone please explain to me how you obtain a C# (needed for D-Major and related keys) from a two-row C/G instrument?
And if you can't, woudn't that make a G/D a better choice (for that reason alone) as cesar says?
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I don't think anyone was talking about a two-row C/G except in the context of history. You don't have a C# on such an instrument, which may be why the older generation of players often played D tunes in the key of C.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by GaryAMartin
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Well, thanks for that, Gary - but cesar said "is better", not "was better" - so to my mind he was talking about the present day ...
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Mix, nobody was talking about 2-row instruments. Basically all concertinas (outside of the few old ones) have 3 rows, where the third row is full of extra notes that (mostly) aren't in the C or G scales. This lets you play all the normal keys, though as you get farther from C/G, you have to use the outside row (or whatever other spare buttons the concertina might have) more and more...
But it's still a C/G concertina.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Georgi
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Bill_McHale, you say that "if change happens too fast, you end up loosing the tradition". True, but using the D row of a G/D anglo is NOT change happening too fast, it's NOT like playing ITM in a saxophone or clarinet or whatever. Furthermore, objective reasons continue to be the most important factor for taking good decisions (even though subjective reasons should also not be ignored).
Georgi, a few things I would like to make clear:
1- I'm not a newcomer to ITM (only to concertina).
2- I am not trying to change the tradition and I'm not trying to make others follow me. I'm just trying to fit nicely into the tradition in what may be an acceptable method of playing.
3- I know a person from England who plays ITM in a metallic flute. She is extremely good and I don't think anyone could ever say that what she plays is not ITM. Moreover, as already mentioned, Kitty Hayes plays ITM on a G/D using the original keys, so it wouldn't be ME innovating. The method already exists.
Although the method I propose is big change for the player (it's a whole new ball game), it is not SUCH a big change for those who listen. Of course good anglo players will be able to hear the differences but I don't think it would be differences that would make it jump out of the ITM sound and into the desert
And it would be a quite easier method, or do you anticipate any difficulties (besides those already pointed by Georgi)?
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Cesar- Kitty Hayes doesn't play anything any more. When she was alive she played a C/G in the home keys.
I can' t believe you are serious about all this. many accomplished ITM Anglo players (as distinct from the pretenders who play ETM or English concertina or melodeon) have told you that a C/G is the better choice- and they have offered you many reasons why they say this. Why are you still going on about it? Enjoying winding people up? Like seeing your name on the net?
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by David Levine
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
focus, I find your post slightly insulting to me, and also to players of different styles or different instruments. Moreover I don't think it's a post that adds anything of value to the discussion so I don't intend to answer to what you say.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Btw, I noticed you changed your nick from cocus to focus. Was it because in the posts above, people here identified you as Chris Algar from Barleycorn Concertinas? I see you have financial interests in the outcome of this discussion...
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Kitty Hayes might have played a G/D, but I understand she didn't really like it. On the recording I'm listening to now, it sounds like she's playing largely in C on the C-row of a C/G.
You are, of course, welcome to invest your thousands of dollars in whatever instrument you wish (and honestly the difference between G/D and C/G isn't *that* huge), but I think you're dramatically overestimating the advantage that playing along single rows on a G/D gives you, and you're not really acknowledging the very likely possibility that the whopping majority of people who actually play the instrument probably have reasons for choosing C/G beyond "history and habit", regardless of whether they are either able or willing to articulate them in this forum.
You're also probably getting a bit of pushback to the G/D idea from those (myself included) who feel that there's actual value to be had from taking the traditional approach, even if it seems like there might be an easier way of going about it. This is a common theme here, whether it be English concertinas, silver flutes, or even sheet music.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Georgi
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Georgi, I didn't yet make a decision. My purpose is to gather as many opinions as I can from both sides of the balance.
Obviously there are more opinions in favor of the traditional system, so I may appear to be acting as devil's advocate, but it is only to try to obtain more clear info about those preferences.
In the end some of you guys gave me a couple of relevant reasons here, such as the use of our "strong fingers" and the ease of ornamentation. Do these reasons compensate for the complexity of the traditional system? Well that is something that requires some thought and in the end it's up to the investor, as you say
Finally, I want to thank all of you who provided valuable info.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
If you want to play rimpty-tumpty morris G/D
If you want to play in an English session G/D
If you want to sing and play chords - probably G/D
If you want to play Irish C/G
If you want to be heard in a session C/G
If you want to really
p155 meolodion players off in an English session C/G
If you want to play fast C/G
If you want to play really fast - English concertina
i.e. learn both
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
cesarpim, while I appreciate your discussion topic, I have to disagree with one of your assertions: "...the complexity of the traditional system..." It's not complex, it just is what it is, if you practice any system it becomes second nature and eventually nearly effortless over time. Even if you choose to go with G/D, there will almost certainly be tunes that will be as complex as on the C/G, the problem is that if you want any help sorting them out, you'll most likely be on your own...
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Hi Eskin, thanks for your participation.
You're right I believe we can get used to almost anything in a way that it becomes second nature. But when I talk about complexity of the traditional system, I have mostly the following thing in mind:
The low F# is in a bit odd position that has to be reached by our pinkie. I know it's just a matter of habit, but for example, imagine the reel "Teetotalers" or the hornpipe "Off to California". In these tunes we have to make a quick sequence of the notes: D E F# G
If we want to play these tunes fast, do you think using the traditional C/G system we can do it as fast as with a G/D system using the 1st row? Even with practice? We cannot even resort to choosing all notes on the draw (pull) because in the traditional system there is no low E on the pull...
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by cesarpim
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
I've heard those tunes played up to speed by multiple concertina players down the years
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
cesarpim, I'm a bit like you. Before buying anything I tend to question received opinion and often go out on a limb because I think I understand the issues better than those that have trod the path before me, because after all they are slavishly doing what they have been told and unthinkingly following conventional wisdom, and I have superior brainpower.
Whenever I do that though it turns out to be a mistake. My advice: get a C/G and get on with it.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
Sorry, my lift home arrived mid-post.
"I've heard those tunes played up to speed by multiple concertina players down the years...
... all of whom were playing the CG (apart from one English conc. player).
That run of notes may be awkward on the conc. There are always sequences of notes that are awkward on any instrument. There are sequences of notes that are impossible on some instruments.
C and C# are weak notes on the flute and whistle, difficult to ornament, and you can't go below D.
The high b is awkard on a banjo when you are learning, wouldn't it be better to tune it differently?
etc etc etc
But people play those instruments anyway and quite effectively. You just have to learn to play the parts that are awkward at first, or to adapt the tune in a manner suitable to both your instrument and the tune. That's why they call it "learning"
You are worrying to much methinks.
- chris
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is C/G Anglo actually better than G/D?
tinamatt commented about 40 posts up (hey, I only just found this thread!):
" i took my g/d anglo to noel hill's course years ago, ...
"finding my own fingerings has been one of the joys of my journey with the g/d, and i can't imagine giving those fingerings up at this stage, for a whole new set of fingerings, notwithstanding the advantages of a really reliable 'system.'"
Good to hear he is still at it! I was sitting there at Noel Hill school when this exchange took place, and my impression was that Noel was willing to teach Matt the tunes on either system, but did a demo of a tune on both to show that what he taught was more applicable on C/G. Matt didn't mention that he already owned a pretty good-sounding G/D concertina at the time. A relevant detail! That might be enough to keep me on that system too if I had one. I ended up buying the C/G that Matt borrowed. It was my first real concertina (I had an Italian clowncertina then) and I still like it and use it. It is currently on loan to a friend who is a beginner. It has mojo, and Matt is part of that history!
Another year that I was at Noel Hill's class he willingly taught all the tunes to a G/D player who had other reasons (already a singer) for staying with that system. Noel would shoo us all off at the end of class, borrow the student's concertina, and show him how he could finger the tune. For that matter, players of English concertina, MacCann duet concertina, and Hayden duet concertina have attended over the years. They get to work out their own ornaments, if any.
Horse for courses, it will be fun no matter what you do. Heck, play them all!
Ken
# Posted on November 30th 2009 by KenC