After many years of torturing Irish music on the banjo, I finally got a fiddle to mess about with. To feel that string vibrate through the wood, up through your mandible and then to the top of your head is delightful. I can see why it becomes an addiction. I should be ready to session with it in about 20 years - about the same time it will take FIFA to finally institute video replays so we don't have to witness another travesty like the French Hand Job Thierry Henry gave the Irish yesterday. Now I know why Euro-football fans riot -and why fiddlers are always smiling, deep in a trance when playing.
I keep fighting with myself over fiddle. I want to very badly, but I get alot of discouragement from people that it's hard. I don't know, I'm on the verge of saying "feck it" and get one anyway. I know it will take me some time, but if that's what I really want to do, then I say the hell with what everyone else says. I'm trying to play whistle, but I just don't think I'm cut out for wind instruments. Strings are just too ingrained in me by now. Anyway, good for you.
Besides, JNE, Milano Music out our way rents violins for cheap, and 100% of the rental goes toward the purchase of a violin, and they're a reputable establishment. What's the harm in renting one for a couple of months and seeing whether or not the bowing will drive me mad?
Good luck with it !! its a wonderful adventure/addiction and get somebody to show you how to hold it properly and the bow too .Change your logging on name , nobody should be known as JNE , you deserve much better , the ars*ho*e who described you thus is the eejit !!
I love the idea of the feel of the instrument - it's the same with the harp. You almost embrace it, and it vibrates when it plays. I also love Jimmy B's comment - there's a musician who works with organisations who talks about BTFI (Beyond the F*ck-it). It's that magical time where you think, "what the hell, I'll just do this thing that I've been worrying about".
Classical violin playing is technically very hard. You just can't begin to understand the minute tolerances involved.
However, playing diddley tunes on the thing is a walk in the park. And that's as it should be. Go for it.
Free yourself from the straight jacket of frets. Open your music to the lack of the necessity to attack every note. Open your notes to infinite sustain. Open yourself to being in control of your notes from start to finish. Open yourself to an explosion of available articulation.
Open yourself to heartbreak and frustration until you start getting
the bowing down. Cathal Hayden started on banjo and within a short time
there was no one better on fiddle.
It's not hard, especially for traditional music. I have scads of students that having just started do quite well on tunes. Do get a teacher, though - it will save a lot of time.
I still think it's hard, but after two years of fiddling I think I'm past the pathetic stage. It's a great challenge and the few times it sounds good, it's such a wonderful feeling.
No ... definitely not ... do not, under any circumstances allow your self to be open to heartbreak and frustration. Getting the bowing down is easy peasy. Heartbreak and frustration leads only to despair. Never ever ever despair.
Do ... or do not. There is no try.
Keep at it, it will come in no time. It's not hard.
Well, I have several things working in my favor - 1) I have scads of tunes and melodies already in my head, I just ned to convert picking to bowing 2) one of my boys takes suzuki violin lessons & I have several fiddler friends who can help me with technique if needed, and 3) being a banjo player, I am immune to frustration brought on by playing bum notes.
Jimmy B - get yourself a Milano rent-a-fiddle and we can scrape tunes together!
I played mandolin and then bazouki for a few years before seeing/hearing the light, so I speak from experience, not prejudice.
Yes, having a rake of tunes in your head (that's where they should be by the way, in your head, not in some daft muscle memory stupidity specific to your instrument) is a great advantage. Not least because it makes practising less tedious.
Top learning-to-bow technique if coming from flat pick and frets:
The most confusing thing at first is deciding when to slur. Don't do it, it's completely the wrong way round. You shouldn't be deciding when to slur, you should be deciding when to accent. So at first, try playing tunes with long continuous bow strokes, and defining the tune with left hand articulations only. If you can hear where you feel the tune needs an accent, then that's where you should change direction with the bow.
Do not NOT NOT NOT practice "bowing paterns". Practice tunes
Llig - I don't know why, but that thought process seemed to make sense naturally over the past few weeks I've been at this with my new toy. I've been messing about with some simple jigs that seem to have long bowing strokes, Out on the Ocean, Humors of Trim, Dusty Windowsills, that sort of thing. The bow direction seems to call out it's own changes based on where the natural accents of the tune fall. I'm enjoying the hell out of it, and as a added bonus, it's actually improving my banjo playing as I now feel accents in parts of the tunes I had noticed before.
Well, Llig I am a left hander with decades of playing clarinet and other
woodwinds -- no string instruments. So, it was very tough to get some
bow control. On the other hand, learning whistle and flute has been
dead easy.
The hard part is…patience. You’ll sound horrible for longer than you want to endure, but just keep at it. If you’ve got the fire in your belly, you’ll get there.
llig - You have convinced me, I just have to fit some lessons into my budget.
JNE - It certainly may help to know someone in the learning process. This give me another excuse to finally clear out that storage room I've been meaning to convert into my "man cave" to give myself a place to practice without driving the wife mad. Unlike you, however, I have a feeling that any success on the fiddle will almost certainly cause me to move away from plectrum. I hear fiddle is a jealous instrument.
Woo hoo! It's like a revival meeting in here! Glory be! We even have a Reverend! Testify!
I love the banjo. I try to play mine weekly...then logic kicks in. "Why am I picking 47 notes when I could go 'whoosh!' with one bow stroke?" Sigh. Damn physics.
My fiddle's not jealous at all Jimmy.
Maybe it's just secure in its place as 'first wife'? It knows the banjo will always be 'the other woman'.
I don't know what it thinks about my whistle. It just pats it on the head from time to time, condescendingly. [shrug]
Bob himself - I've sounded like shight on the banjo for more than 10 years now and it hasn't stopped me from playing. The fiddle will just allow me to sound like shight on another instrument. It's all good - I've always known this is a journey not a destination - and like any good journey, its not how long it takes but how well you can tell the story afterwards.
That explains why I always remember myself sounding so much better than I actually am. Er, huh?
I went the other way. As a fiddler of many years standing but no great merit I bought myself a mandolin, just as a sideline. The mandolin has now completely taken over. I actually like the sound that I get from it, which is a state of affairs that I never quite arrived at with the fiddle. Plus playing the fiddle wears me out, whereas I can play the mando for hours on end.
JNE - What I meant was that, for most of us, it takes a good while before the squawking and "exotic" intonation are under control. Meanwhile, it's hard to listen to yourself and easy to get discouraged.
"... playing diddley tunes on the thing is a walk in the park. " llig leahcim
I'm beginning to appreciate why you've been banned so often. I have a feeling your self-estimation is over the top. Thoughtlessness might have something to do with it as well. Your shoot from the hip style doesn't become you, though I doubt you get that. You're probably the kind of person who denigrates Mississippi John Hurt because he isn't Andres Segovia.
I'd love to hear you walk in that park.
Perhaps a poor choice of words, cocus, but I think llig was just trying to be encouraging. I doubt JNE was damaged by the comment. This has been such a nice thread. Does it have to start getting nasty?
Cocus - you're taking Llig too literally and too seriously.
I know what he meant by "walk in the park" as compared to the technical challenges that may bog me down with classical violin playing. Additionally, I understand, that the "park" in his world is different than mine. My park is not for walking in after dark since there are muggers, large unleashed dogs, and other demons lurking about. Yet it is still my park and I look forward to long leisurely strolls within it's creepy confines.
Jusa - my mum always used to say "If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well." I have worked on that and came up with the corollary (have I spelled that right?) "If a thing's REALLY worth doing, it'a worth doing badly!" One gets things wrong when learning, but that's just part of learning.
A tip from my childhood - when you throw the thing, for heaven's sake make sure there's something soft for it to land on, and DON'T throw it hard!
Lesson 1. Never throw your fiddle! You WILL want to play it again.
That being said, I think you will know you are there when you are able to speak through the fiddle. When you find yourself expressing phrasing through bowing rather than feeling like you are learning to hold it. Bow hold really seems like this elusive thing that you may never know how to do "right." It's all about whether or not you are actually controlling it or if it feels like it is always behaving unexpectedly. Of course I really think that if you are able to play a full tune, or a full phrase for that matter, that you have it down. You just have to apply those same skills to everything new that comes your way. Repertoire is different than ability.
PS - I don't agree with throwing fiddles, but thank God the man who made my granny's fiddle built it well - I'm still playing it regularly 50 years later - it landed on the settee and a cushion! All the rest of Earl Cameron's contribution I agree with thoroughly as well.
Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
After many years of torturing Irish music on the banjo, I finally got a fiddle to mess about with. To feel that string vibrate through the wood, up through your mandible and then to the top of your head is delightful. I can see why it becomes an addiction. I should be ready to session with it in about 20 years - about the same time it will take FIFA to finally institute video replays so we don't have to witness another travesty like the French Hand Job Thierry Henry gave the Irish yesterday. Now I know why Euro-football fans riot -and why fiddlers are always smiling, deep in a trance when playing.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Hoorrahhh
(just put a bit more effort in and cut that 20 years down)
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by ...
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Hey JNE,
I keep fighting with myself over fiddle. I want to very badly, but I get alot of discouragement from people that it's hard. I don't know, I'm on the verge of saying "feck it" and get one anyway. I know it will take me some time, but if that's what I really want to do, then I say the hell with what everyone else says. I'm trying to play whistle, but I just don't think I'm cut out for wind instruments. Strings are just too ingrained in me by now. Anyway, good for you.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Besides, JNE, Milano Music out our way rents violins for cheap, and 100% of the rental goes toward the purchase of a violin, and they're a reputable establishment. What's the harm in renting one for a couple of months and seeing whether or not the bowing will drive me mad?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Good luck with it !! its a wonderful adventure/addiction and get somebody to show you how to hold it properly and the bow too .Change your logging on name , nobody should be known as JNE , you deserve much better , the ars*ho*e who described you thus is the eejit !!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Red Robin
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
I love the idea of the feel of the instrument - it's the same with the harp. You almost embrace it, and it vibrates when it plays. I also love Jimmy B's comment - there's a musician who works with organisations who talks about BTFI (Beyond the F*ck-it). It's that magical time where you think, "what the hell, I'll just do this thing that I've been worrying about".
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
There ought to be a replay. Oops - France got the correct result first time round, replay ruled out...
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Classical violin playing is technically very hard. You just can't begin to understand the minute tolerances involved.
However, playing diddley tunes on the thing is a walk in the park. And that's as it should be. Go for it.
Free yourself from the straight jacket of frets. Open your music to the lack of the necessity to attack every note. Open your notes to infinite sustain. Open yourself to being in control of your notes from start to finish. Open yourself to an explosion of available articulation.
Open yourself to the music
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by ...
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
"The straight jacket of frets" -LOL -
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Amen, Brother llig.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Ahh, JNE, you traitor...
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Fear not Reverend - I have not strayed from the faith, just opened my eyes and ears to other, em, forms of praise....
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Open yourself to heartbreak and frustration until you start getting
the bowing down. Cathal Hayden started on banjo and within a short time
there was no one better on fiddle.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Hup
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
It's not hard, especially for traditional music. I have scads of students that having just started do quite well on tunes. Do get a teacher, though - it will save a lot of time.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
I still think it's hard, but after two years of fiddling I think I'm past the pathetic stage. It's a great challenge and the few times it sounds good, it's such a wonderful feeling.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by boxielady
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
No ... definitely not ... do not, under any circumstances allow your self to be open to heartbreak and frustration. Getting the bowing down is easy peasy. Heartbreak and frustration leads only to despair. Never ever ever despair.
Do ... or do not. There is no try.
Keep at it, it will come in no time. It's not hard.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by ...
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Thanks for your support Yoda - er, Llig!
Well, I have several things working in my favor - 1) I have scads of tunes and melodies already in my head, I just ned to convert picking to bowing 2) one of my boys takes suzuki violin lessons & I have several fiddler friends who can help me with technique if needed, and 3) being a banjo player, I am immune to frustration brought on by playing bum notes.
Jimmy B - get yourself a Milano rent-a-fiddle and we can scrape tunes together!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
I played mandolin and then bazouki for a few years before seeing/hearing the light, so I speak from experience, not prejudice.
Yes, having a rake of tunes in your head (that's where they should be by the way, in your head, not in some daft muscle memory stupidity specific to your instrument) is a great advantage. Not least because it makes practising less tedious.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by ...
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Top learning-to-bow technique if coming from flat pick and frets:
The most confusing thing at first is deciding when to slur. Don't do it, it's completely the wrong way round. You shouldn't be deciding when to slur, you should be deciding when to accent. So at first, try playing tunes with long continuous bow strokes, and defining the tune with left hand articulations only. If you can hear where you feel the tune needs an accent, then that's where you should change direction with the bow.
Do not NOT NOT NOT practice "bowing paterns". Practice tunes
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by ...
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Llig - I don't know why, but that thought process seemed to make sense naturally over the past few weeks I've been at this with my new toy. I've been messing about with some simple jigs that seem to have long bowing strokes, Out on the Ocean, Humors of Trim, Dusty Windowsills, that sort of thing. The bow direction seems to call out it's own changes based on where the natural accents of the tune fall. I'm enjoying the hell out of it, and as a added bonus, it's actually improving my banjo playing as I now feel accents in parts of the tunes I had noticed before.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
"Hadn't noticed before..."
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Good.
(But remember, the best thing it will do to your banjo playing is to make you desist all together)
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by ...
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Well, Llig I am a left hander with decades of playing clarinet and other
woodwinds -- no string instruments. So, it was very tough to get some
bow control. On the other hand, learning whistle and flute has been
dead easy.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Hup
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Sorry Llig - I love my banjo. It's Thierry Henry I detest at the moment.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Who knew Llig was in the Samaratans?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
The hard part is…patience. You’ll sound horrible for longer than you want to endure, but just keep at it. If you’ve got the fire in your belly, you’ll get there.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Is there a "there? "
and, more importantly, where is it?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by leoj
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
llig - You have convinced me, I just have to fit some lessons into my budget.
JNE - It certainly may help to know someone in the learning process. This give me another excuse to finally clear out that storage room I've been meaning to convert into my "man cave" to give myself a place to practice without driving the wife mad. Unlike you, however, I have a feeling that any success on the fiddle will almost certainly cause me to move away from plectrum. I hear fiddle is a jealous instrument.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
leoj: Is there a "there? "
and, more importantly, where is it?
It’s somewhere beyond “I’m trying to play the fiddle,” and into “I’m playing the fiddle.”
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Woo hoo! It's like a revival meeting in here! Glory be! We even have a Reverend! Testify!
I love the banjo. I try to play mine weekly...then logic kicks in. "Why am I picking 47 notes when I could go 'whoosh!' with one bow stroke?" Sigh. Damn physics.
My fiddle's not jealous at all Jimmy.
Maybe it's just secure in its place as 'first wife'? It knows the banjo will always be 'the other woman'.
I don't know what it thinks about my whistle. It just pats it on the head from time to time, condescendingly. [shrug]
Welcome Jusa, now you're doomed!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
...and let's not talk about Swedish refs in need of eye wear. I thought they had universal health care in that country? Sheesh.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
"It’s somewhere beyond "I’m trying to play the fiddle,” and into “I’m playing the fiddle.” "
Remember, do ... or do not ... there is no try
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by ...
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Certainly a comfy cozy thread, full of good things. I'm just holding my breath and hoping against the worst.
llig, I'm calling you Yoda from now on.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Bob himself - I've sounded like shight on the banjo for more than 10 years now and it hasn't stopped me from playing. The fiddle will just allow me to sound like shight on another instrument. It's all good - I've always known this is a journey not a destination - and like any good journey, its not how long it takes but how well you can tell the story afterwards.
That explains why I always remember myself sounding so much better than I actually am. Er, huh?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
JNE - Now you're just being self-depracating. I've heard you play, you certainly don't sound like sh*te.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
I went the other way. As a fiddler of many years standing but no great merit I bought myself a mandolin, just as a sideline. The mandolin has now completely taken over. I actually like the sound that I get from it, which is a state of affairs that I never quite arrived at with the fiddle. Plus playing the fiddle wears me out, whereas I can play the mando for hours on end.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by johndsamuels
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Llig is Yoda, Jimmy, he's like Yoda in a cap and a pint at the bar. A Zen fiddle Yoda Jedi. Someone fire up the Photoshop.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
JNE - What I meant was that, for most of us, it takes a good while before the squawking and "exotic" intonation are under control. Meanwhile, it's hard to listen to yourself and easy to get discouraged.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
"... playing diddley tunes on the thing is a walk in the park. " llig leahcim
I'm beginning to appreciate why you've been banned so often. I have a feeling your self-estimation is over the top. Thoughtlessness might have something to do with it as well. Your shoot from the hip style doesn't become you, though I doubt you get that. You're probably the kind of person who denigrates Mississippi John Hurt because he isn't Andres Segovia.
I'd love to hear you walk in that park.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by David Levine
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Perhaps a poor choice of words, cocus, but I think llig was just trying to be encouraging. I doubt JNE was damaged by the comment. This has been such a nice thread. Does it have to start getting nasty?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Bob - no worries, I knew what you meant.
Cocus - you're taking Llig too literally and too seriously.
I know what he meant by "walk in the park" as compared to the technical challenges that may bog me down with classical violin playing. Additionally, I understand, that the "park" in his world is different than mine. My park is not for walking in after dark since there are muggers, large unleashed dogs, and other demons lurking about. Yet it is still my park and I look forward to long leisurely strolls within it's creepy confines.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Jusa - my mum always used to say "If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing well." I have worked on that and came up with the corollary (have I spelled that right?) "If a thing's REALLY worth doing, it'a worth doing badly!" One gets things wrong when learning, but that's just part of learning.
A tip from my childhood - when you throw the thing, for heaven's sake make sure there's something soft for it to land on, and DON'T throw it hard!
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
Lesson 1. Never throw your fiddle! You WILL want to play it again.
That being said, I think you will know you are there when you are able to speak through the fiddle. When you find yourself expressing phrasing through bowing rather than feeling like you are learning to hold it. Bow hold really seems like this elusive thing that you may never know how to do "right." It's all about whether or not you are actually controlling it or if it feels like it is always behaving unexpectedly. Of course I really think that if you are able to play a full tune, or a full phrase for that matter, that you have it down. You just have to apply those same skills to everything new that comes your way. Repertoire is different than ability.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
I learned how to make the damn things once upon a time. But I still hold that bowing is the devil's work.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by sampy
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
great to see a banjo player moving up to the fiddle
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by dogfiddle
Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction
PS - I don't agree with throwing fiddles, but thank God the man who made my granny's fiddle built it well - I'm still playing it regularly 50 years later - it landed on the settee and a cushion! All the rest of Earl Cameron's contribution I agree with thoroughly as well.
Chris
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Ebor_fiddler