I'm getting frustrated in trying to incorporate triplets into my mando playing. I imagine this is a common problem, but they are throwing my timing off something fierce. I get get a good rhythm going on a tune, try to throw in a triplet, and I get thrown off course. After a bit of stumbling I find my way back, but let's just say it's a good thing I'm not playing banjo. As far as picking patterns go, I know there are no hard rules, it's pretty much whatever works for the tune and the player, but does anyone have any suggestions on how to incorporate triplets into my picking? Jigs aren't the real problem, as triplets don't upset the picking pattern so much, so a bit more practice there and I think I'll have it, it's more with reels. It's easier to start a triplet if I start with a down pick since I'm already there, but my timing is thrown at the end of the triplet. If I adjust to start the triplet with an up pick, my coordination gets thrown fro the start. Maddening. I know, I know, I know, keep practicing and I'll get it is likely to be a common response, but I imagine there has to be a plectrum player out there that can suggest a different approach.
A follow-up question, I've seen a post recently where a banjo player claimed triplets were easier for him on banjo than on mando, possibly because of the double-courses. I don't know. Would anyone agree with that statement?
well, I would agree that picking a single string versus a course of strings is always easier because you don't have to move as far to pluck a single string
probably the thing to do to get the triplets to flow would be to sit down play 4/4 time on one string, then start throwing in triplets
don't think about pick direction, just let that take care of itself
try to say it in your head as you play..."one, two, trip-a-la, four"
"one, trip-a-la,three, four" ...and so forth
alot of times people rush triplets because they sound faster than they really are, so just focus on being even and relaxed
keep everything simple and on one string so you can focus on nothing but the rhythm
then, after a few years, you can forget all of that stuff, and just play what you hear
Find a speed you can play them at comfortably. Then play the whole tune at that speed. It might feel really really slow, but just go with it. Try to express all the rhythm at that speed.
Never ever play faster than you can. All you are doing is practicing playing badly.
Thank you both. Actually I've begun using a metronome and practicing reels at about 95, which is helping, but the triplets are still throwing me a bit. I don't know what the general consensus is on metronomes, but I find it helpful.
When I first started playing, I found triplets on mandolin and bouzouki to be easier than on banjo, because it's as if the string is "fatter". You can't miss it. However, when I got better at relaxing, banjo is a much easier instrument to play melody on because there is little resistance from the strings.
As far as the techniques for playing triplets, I think there are probably about as many techniques as there are players. You might take a look at Mike Keyes' banjo triplet lessons (http://www.banjosessions.com/apr09/Keyes.html)
As far as my personal technique goes, here are a few things that I do: I consider the triplet to be a single "gesture". I don't think of it as 3 separate movements. I always start my triplets on a down stroke. That might be somewhat limiting, but it is what works for me. The first stroke is stopped short, by a slight tightening of my wrist, which causes a bit of a "bounce", which combined with a very slight twisting of my wrist, pulls the plectrum back through the up stroke, and the it follows through for the remaining down stroke. It is difficult to describe properly, because it really is just an interruption of the stroke, and happens very quickly. Again, I just think of this in my mind as one thing. My brain says "triplet", and my hand plays a triplet, in the same way that my brain says "down stroke", and my hand plays a single down stroke.
Roger Landes teaches a triplet technique that is similar, but uses the flexing of his thumb and forefinger to create the up and down strokes. So the triplet is Down (wrist), Up (finger flex), Down (finger flex).
For me, triplets are much harder on jigs than on reels, because I pick my jigs DUD DUD, instead of DUD UDU, etc. So you have a lot less time to get your hand re-positioned after the triplet. A triplet in a reel might be DU(dud) DUDU, so yes, you have two Down strokes in a row. But for me, a triplet in a jig might be (dud)D DUD, so you have THREE Down strokes in a row, which is a lot more work to keep in rhythm, especially at speed!
As far as timing those multiple down strokes in a row goes, try working on it slowly. As slowly as you need to keep the rhythm flowing properly. One of the nice things about playing plectrum instruments is that your right hand, alone, is providing the rhythm. (As opposed to a wind instrument, for instance, where the rhythm has to be generated pretty much solely in your head, because you're not just moving a single body part to generate the rhythm...) So it's kind of like dancing with your plectrum, and you can feel the rhythm moving your body.
Combine that physical feel for the rhythm with the idea that a triplet is a single "gesture", and you will overcome the discomfort of having to do multiple Down strokes in a row, that messes up your timing...
Another thing you might consider is the plectrum itself. Again, there are about as many plectrum preferences as there are players, but your choice of plectrum can have an effect on your ability to play triplets. (As well as the sound you get out of your instrument).
Most mandolin players like a fairly heavy plectrum. But I have found that I have a difficult time playing if the plectrum doesn't have some flexibility to it. On mandolin, I tend to like the Clayton Ultem (gold translucent) picks in .72mm. That's very different than the plectrum I use on banjo.
As far as metronomes go, I consider them to be useful for a few things when you're starting out. They can help you keep moving, instead of stopping every time you make a mistake. And they can help you diagnose problems (like when your triplets are throwing off your timing...) But in general, I recommend that you just use it to get a sense of the tempo, then shut it off and try to play at that tempo without trying to play along with the metronome...
If you're playing with your metronome and something is still throwing you, it's not working. Slow down.
If you are messing up the timing while playing with the metronome, all the metronome will make you do is speed up or slow down the next phrase to get you back in time with it. It won't help you play the phrase you are messing up on. So really, it's just introducing more things to do wrong.
as llig says...you should slow down if you are getting tangled up in the triplets. What you have to do is sit down and very slowly and medatatively practice.
Prepare to strike the string by placing your plectrum against the string...think about the next motion you will make,...pluck the string and prepare the next stroke....think it through..give yourself time to know EXACTLY what you are going to do next
this is what teaches your hands to just do it without you directing it with your conscious mind. This is the key to everything. To listening, to playing in time, to hearing and reacting to variations...everything comes from having all the mechanics on the auto pilot
so you have to get all the uncertanty out of your mind and out of your hands
you only have to meditiate on it for a short period of your life, too. Maybe only a few times even
but the fruit of that work you will eat for the rest of your days as a musician
Reverend you beat me to it mentioning the plectrum itself
I use a Frank Dunlop 0.6 and the triplets are much easier than if I used a heavier plectrum.
Practice with a thin plectrum Jimmy and you will probably find it a whole lot easier.
A female friend (?) once told me that all men think with their wrists so the action should not be too difficult to get eventually
I'm on the other end of the scale with pick stiffness. I use a 1.0 nylon that is pretty stiff. For me its easier to control my sound with a heavy pick on doubled courses because there is no flex.
but I grew up playing heavy picks, so this is purely a personal thing
sticking to the plectrum theme - I found that it was easier for me when I was starting out to use lighter plecs (.72mm) as far as my triplet playing went. As I progressed on the mandolin I started gradually moving up to heavier ones and nowadays my preference is for plecs in the .88mm - 1.mm range. If you're not already using a lighter plec like a .72mm, maybe get your hands on some and give them a go - you might find that if you get the timing and technique right using them that you'll be able to transfer that learning back to heavier plecs.
Of course if you're already using light plecs, ignore this post! Or maybe go in the opposite direction and try a slightly heavier plec - the one of the reasons I started moving to heavier plecs was that I was starting to find that the .72mm ones felt like they were dragging a bit on the strings. For the lark I picked up a .96mm one I had and it was the business - better triplets, better speed, smoother playing from string to string.
With jigs it's different because on a mandolin, banjo or guitar you might play at times a quadruplet instead of the naturally occurring triplet. This is easier to practise when it is all on one note (like the beginning of Kesh Jig or Morrison's) and it can sound very effective: distinctly harder when you have a run of notes up or down the scale and you put 4 in place of the regular 3. Just practise it slowly!
While we're on the subject, plectrum shape may have as much effect as guage. I find a wedge shape (like an equilateral triangle?) allows me to brace fore and middle fingers against the thumb for better control better than the more popular teardrop shape.
Oh dear, let me get out of here before I am tempted into a discussion on the merits of different bodhran beaters! (Friends of mine have that conversation every session night!)
Funny you should mention Morrison's, as I'm working on that one and have always been in love with that tune. There's a lot of room for playing around with that opening, and I don't really do much with triplets there, mostly just playing back and forth between the E and B, and it works for me. I apply more triplets to the second part.
I dont really have advice since these guys said everything, lol-practice, go slow, think of it as one movement, etc. I was wondering how to keep your wrist loose after a triplet though. I do my triplets the same way as Reverend, but I learned a version of a reel that has a triplet every-every other bar and half way through it i start to slow down because my wrist tightens up to much... any advice? is it just a go slow and practice kind of thing?(seems like it always is )
good luck with your triplets though, when I played the mandolin it was actually easier than the banjo for me because of the courses-you've sorta got two tries to hit the string each way you go.
the only advice i can offer though is to make sure you don't dig in with your pick too much. that was my problem at first.
Geoff Pollitt: "I use a Jim (sic) Dunlop 0.6 and the triplets are much easier than if I used a heavier plectrum."
For what it's worth, I use a J. Dunlop 0.73mm, and can't get decent triplets with anything else. I sometimes use a 0.60mm on banjo. I think playing triplets relies on a certain amount of 'bounce' - to me, the pick feels as if it is 'bouncing' when I play a triplet, and I am utilising that movement, rather than exerting force from my hand/wrist/arm. That, in turn, relies on having just the right amount of flexibility' in the pick (I don't fully understand the physics, but there appears to be some sort of 'impedance matching' going on between pick and string). Of course, you can, to a degree, vary the flexibility by changing the way you hold the pick - the closer to the point, or the tighter you hold it, the stiffer it will be. Naturally, each person is physiologically slightly different from the next, including in the shape, size and strength of their fingers, so some might be most comfortable using a light pick and 'tensioningf' it with the fingers, whilst others will prefer using a heavy pick and holding it lightly.
Lots of interesting replies here. I'm always amazed at how clearly other people can describe how they play. I nevre know how I play things and find that as soon as I think about it I can't do it. One of the few things I'm pretty sure that I do though is (almost?) always start triplets on a down stroke, that feels more natural to me and I just play them when they feel natural.
I think people can focus too much on technical aspects of this music apart from the music itself (tunes). Personally I think it is better to play the tunes expressively and enjoy them rather than hammering away at a technique that will be injected into a tune. Better that triplets etc grow out of playing the tune than grafted in from an external technique. (I'm overstating a tad by way of emphasis )
I think banjo and mandolin players are particularly prone to becoming obsessed with triplets as an end in themselves, which isn't much fun and not always great music. Some of the best mandolin and banjo playing I hear isn't dominated by triplets (not that triplets are bad).
I'd agree that triplets are easier on the banjo. They certainly feel more natural to me on the banjo than the mandolin. I think this is partly ease of playing, but also partly that lots of triplets on a banjo sounds much better than lots of triplets on a mandolin. I think mandolin is not a scaled down wooden banjo, and sounds better handled in a differnt way from the tenor. For me that holds ever truer for octave mandolin/ mandola/ bouzouki/ call-it-what-you-will-mie. I play very few triplets on the big mando when I have a go at it, I think the intrument is more suited to a different style of playing tunes. But then I'm particularly poor on the big mando and dislikey using it for reels (I'm completely hopeless at accompaniment where the big mando really shines).
Sorry wandered somewhat OT here, pout it down to over wrok and lack of sleep...
- Chris
ps I like thin plecs for banjo too. can't play with thick plecs. Need a thicker one fro mando.
There are certainly different styles of triplets. Some are more percussive, and some are more drawn out and rhythmic. MIne tend to be rapid fire, more like Brona's. But I did spend some time in the last year slowing them down to be more drawn out. It's an interesting difference in how they affect on the movement and flow of a tune. Ideally, I would think that you'd want to be able to do them both ways. But mine still end up fast and percussive when I'm playing at speed.
I prefer the more spaciously deployed triplets, like John Carty's. Brona's, and others', like Tommy People's, sound more like spasms, to me. Also, in jig ornamentation, do you, Pete, actually play triplets? I find that I play "doublets". That is to say, rather than, for example, DUD, I might play DduD, or perhaps DUdu. (two lower case letters= one upper case, in duration). How about you other players?
you're trying to play too fast. if you cant play a triplet at the speed you're playing at, then you cant play at that speed. slow it down and practice until you can. people on here are blaming the plectrum, but the plectrum doesnt make too much of a difference. its the man not the machine. just slow everything down until you can play the triplets. you dont actually have to put in triplets if you cant manage them
So... way back when I was a wee lad, the drum instructors I had taught me to play a series of rudimentary exercises. They were designed to teach me to use alternating hands/sticks for accents. Example: R l r L r l R l r L etc. The idea being, you should be able to play accents with either hand at any time.
When I picked up the mando, I translated that into D u d U d u D u d U d u etc.
Recently I took a mandolin seminar at a local Celtic festival. It was a lot of fun and I learned a new tune. But the instructor said a properly played jig is played D u d D u d D u d in order to put a strong accent on the 1 and 4 count of a jig. When I try that on tunes I know everything falls completely apart. And I have to play MUCH slower.
So I guess what I'm asking is, is that really necessary? It's counter-intuitive and feels un-natural to the way I have always played drums and now mandolin.
Fishmo, there are several discussion about this topic on the www.mandolincafe.com website.
DUD DUD is indeed counter-intuitive for most at first, but in the long run the results are better, most of the time, for most people. Not all the time, for all people. I believe that as a result of observation and listening, not from hard and fast theory.
I've changed from DUD UDU after 30 years to DUD DUD - it's been awkward but gets better.
Dan Beimborn uses and advocates DDU DDU which could be interesting to try
I used to believe that I picked DUD DUD consistently, but a discussion here some years back led me to examine my playing more closely and I realized that, although it's my default pattern, I vary it frequently to facilitate a triplet or a string crossing.
The idea behind playing slowly is to take more than enough time -- not just enough time, but more than that -- to play what you want comfortably and well. You don't want to be always playing at the top of your ability. You may be able to play the triplet, but it's chancy. You should play so slowly that you can play the triplet and still have time to think about where you hid the bottle of Scotch last night...
Fishmonger:
I agree it is not necessary for everyone to play DUD DUD in jigs to get the dynamics right - Ashley Broder told me she finds it a waste of effort, and I could not detect from her playing any difference between a DUD or a UDU. There are a few like her, but probably not many. Chris Thiele is another. Like Bob, there are passages that I always do strictly alternate picking, but DUD DUD increasingly is the norm.
No one responded to my query earlier in this thread on how they do ornaments in jigs - are you using a "doublet" or an actual triplet? (Se above)
When I tried to 'teach myself' mandolin about 20 years ago I couldn't find a book related to irish music, so I used a banjo book. It recommended picking jigs whichever way was least effort and I spent ages practicing getting the accent right on jigs with all the sequences that came up. A lot later I came back to it, with the benefit of resources on the web and several books to read. Found it impossible to change to DUD DUD on tunes I already knew and on new tunes I would repeatedly slip back. Having not played dance tunes on the mandolin for a few years, and got to know the music better I could give it another go. But some habits are hard to get out of.
“I find that I play "doublets". That is to say, rather than, for example, DUD, I might play DduD, or perhaps DUdu. (two lower case letters= one upper case, in duration). How about you other players?”
I think what you’ve described here is what we refer to as triplets, even though the last note of the three has a longer duration than the other two. It’s actually a triplet of attacks, not of three equal notes.
I play triplets in jigs dudU DUD. the only reason to play Jigs DUD DUD is so the downstroke is on the beat. By doing triplets like this then the downstroke naturally falls on the beat.
I play some Greek Bouzouki pieces on the Octave Mandola e.g. "Hora Lemonopoulos" and must slow the tempo by a third or more to play the triplets, it's in 4/4. The greek Bouzouki has a longer scale length but Greek players of that instrument play as if they had ten fingers on their left hand?
Plectrum Triplets
Plectrum Triplets
I'm getting frustrated in trying to incorporate triplets into my mando playing. I imagine this is a common problem, but they are throwing my timing off something fierce. I get get a good rhythm going on a tune, try to throw in a triplet, and I get thrown off course. After a bit of stumbling I find my way back, but let's just say it's a good thing I'm not playing banjo. As far as picking patterns go, I know there are no hard rules, it's pretty much whatever works for the tune and the player, but does anyone have any suggestions on how to incorporate triplets into my picking? Jigs aren't the real problem, as triplets don't upset the picking pattern so much, so a bit more practice there and I think I'll have it, it's more with reels. It's easier to start a triplet if I start with a down pick since I'm already there, but my timing is thrown at the end of the triplet. If I adjust to start the triplet with an up pick, my coordination gets thrown fro the start. Maddening. I know, I know, I know, keep practicing and I'll get it is likely to be a common response, but I imagine there has to be a plectrum player out there that can suggest a different approach.
A follow-up question, I've seen a post recently where a banjo player claimed triplets were easier for him on banjo than on mando, possibly because of the double-courses. I don't know. Would anyone agree with that statement?
Cheers
Jimmy the Frustrated Mandolin Player
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Plectrum Triplets
well, I would agree that picking a single string versus a course of strings is always easier because you don't have to move as far to pluck a single string
probably the thing to do to get the triplets to flow would be to sit down play 4/4 time on one string, then start throwing in triplets
don't think about pick direction, just let that take care of itself
try to say it in your head as you play..."one, two, trip-a-la, four"
"one, trip-a-la,three, four" ...and so forth
alot of times people rush triplets because they sound faster than they really are, so just focus on being even and relaxed
keep everything simple and on one string so you can focus on nothing but the rhythm
then, after a few years, you can forget all of that stuff, and just play what you hear
good luck with it
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Find a speed you can play them at comfortably. Then play the whole tune at that speed. It might feel really really slow, but just go with it. Try to express all the rhythm at that speed.
Never ever play faster than you can. All you are doing is practicing playing badly.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by ...
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Thank you both. Actually I've begun using a metronome and practicing reels at about 95, which is helping, but the triplets are still throwing me a bit. I don't know what the general consensus is on metronomes, but I find it helpful.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Plectrum Triplets
When I first started playing, I found triplets on mandolin and bouzouki to be easier than on banjo, because it's as if the string is "fatter". You can't miss it. However, when I got better at relaxing, banjo is a much easier instrument to play melody on because there is little resistance from the strings.
As far as the techniques for playing triplets, I think there are probably about as many techniques as there are players. You might take a look at Mike Keyes' banjo triplet lessons (http://www.banjosessions.com/apr09/Keyes.html)
As far as my personal technique goes, here are a few things that I do: I consider the triplet to be a single "gesture". I don't think of it as 3 separate movements. I always start my triplets on a down stroke. That might be somewhat limiting, but it is what works for me. The first stroke is stopped short, by a slight tightening of my wrist, which causes a bit of a "bounce", which combined with a very slight twisting of my wrist, pulls the plectrum back through the up stroke, and the it follows through for the remaining down stroke. It is difficult to describe properly, because it really is just an interruption of the stroke, and happens very quickly. Again, I just think of this in my mind as one thing. My brain says "triplet", and my hand plays a triplet, in the same way that my brain says "down stroke", and my hand plays a single down stroke.
Roger Landes teaches a triplet technique that is similar, but uses the flexing of his thumb and forefinger to create the up and down strokes. So the triplet is Down (wrist), Up (finger flex), Down (finger flex).
For me, triplets are much harder on jigs than on reels, because I pick my jigs DUD DUD, instead of DUD UDU, etc. So you have a lot less time to get your hand re-positioned after the triplet. A triplet in a reel might be DU(dud) DUDU, so yes, you have two Down strokes in a row. But for me, a triplet in a jig might be (dud)D DUD, so you have THREE Down strokes in a row, which is a lot more work to keep in rhythm, especially at speed!
As far as timing those multiple down strokes in a row goes, try working on it slowly. As slowly as you need to keep the rhythm flowing properly. One of the nice things about playing plectrum instruments is that your right hand, alone, is providing the rhythm. (As opposed to a wind instrument, for instance, where the rhythm has to be generated pretty much solely in your head, because you're not just moving a single body part to generate the rhythm...) So it's kind of like dancing with your plectrum, and you can feel the rhythm moving your body.
Combine that physical feel for the rhythm with the idea that a triplet is a single "gesture", and you will overcome the discomfort of having to do multiple Down strokes in a row, that messes up your timing...
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Plectrum Triplets
"I don't know what the general consensus is on metronomes, but I find it helpful."
Jimmy - you're on thin ice!
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by domhnall.
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Reverend - Jigs are easier for triplets that reels for me, and you're the opposite. That figures.
domnull - Yes I'm asking for it. Please ellaborate.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Another thing you might consider is the plectrum itself. Again, there are about as many plectrum preferences as there are players, but your choice of plectrum can have an effect on your ability to play triplets. (As well as the sound you get out of your instrument).
Most mandolin players like a fairly heavy plectrum. But I have found that I have a difficult time playing if the plectrum doesn't have some flexibility to it. On mandolin, I tend to like the Clayton Ultem (gold translucent) picks in .72mm. That's very different than the plectrum I use on banjo.
As far as metronomes go, I consider them to be useful for a few things when you're starting out. They can help you keep moving, instead of stopping every time you make a mistake. And they can help you diagnose problems (like when your triplets are throwing off your timing...) But in general, I recommend that you just use it to get a sense of the tempo, then shut it off and try to play at that tempo without trying to play along with the metronome...
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Plectrum Triplets
If you're playing with your metronome and something is still throwing you, it's not working. Slow down.
If you are messing up the timing while playing with the metronome, all the metronome will make you do is speed up or slow down the next phrase to get you back in time with it. It won't help you play the phrase you are messing up on. So really, it's just introducing more things to do wrong.
Slowing down is the only option.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by ...
Re: Plectrum Triplets
as llig says...you should slow down if you are getting tangled up in the triplets. What you have to do is sit down and very slowly and medatatively practice.
Prepare to strike the string by placing your plectrum against the string...think about the next motion you will make,...pluck the string and prepare the next stroke....think it through..give yourself time to know EXACTLY what you are going to do next
this is what teaches your hands to just do it without you directing it with your conscious mind. This is the key to everything. To listening, to playing in time, to hearing and reacting to variations...everything comes from having all the mechanics on the auto pilot
so you have to get all the uncertanty out of your mind and out of your hands
you only have to meditiate on it for a short period of your life, too. Maybe only a few times even
but the fruit of that work you will eat for the rest of your days as a musician
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Reverend you beat me to it mentioning the plectrum itself
I use a Frank Dunlop 0.6 and the triplets are much easier than if I used a heavier plectrum.
Practice with a thin plectrum Jimmy and you will probably find it a whole lot easier.
A female friend (?) once told me that all men think with their wrists so the action should not be too difficult to get eventually
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Plectrum Triplets
I'm on the other end of the scale with pick stiffness. I use a 1.0 nylon that is pretty stiff. For me its easier to control my sound with a heavy pick on doubled courses because there is no flex.
but I grew up playing heavy picks, so this is purely a personal thing
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Plectrum Triplets
I found Crowley's #1 a great tune to practise out the triplets; and remember to play them only on the strong beat.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Plectrum Triplets
hey geoff p, tell that girlfiend to get her ass into gear and get with the action, and she'll know what it's all about.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Plectrum Triplets
yea, we only think with one thing, allright, but it ain't our wrists
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Plectrum Triplets
sticking to the plectrum theme - I found that it was easier for me when I was starting out to use lighter plecs (.72mm) as far as my triplet playing went. As I progressed on the mandolin I started gradually moving up to heavier ones and nowadays my preference is for plecs in the .88mm - 1.mm range. If you're not already using a lighter plec like a .72mm, maybe get your hands on some and give them a go - you might find that if you get the timing and technique right using them that you'll be able to transfer that learning back to heavier plecs.
Of course if you're already using light plecs, ignore this post! Or maybe go in the opposite direction and try a slightly heavier plec - the one of the reasons I started moving to heavier plecs was that I was starting to find that the .72mm ones felt like they were dragging a bit on the strings. For the lark I picked up a .96mm one I had and it was the business - better triplets, better speed, smoother playing from string to string.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by triplet upstairs
Re: Plectrum Triplets
With jigs it's different because on a mandolin, banjo or guitar you might play at times a quadruplet instead of the naturally occurring triplet. This is easier to practise when it is all on one note (like the beginning of Kesh Jig or Morrison's) and it can sound very effective: distinctly harder when you have a run of notes up or down the scale and you put 4 in place of the regular 3. Just practise it slowly!
While we're on the subject, plectrum shape may have as much effect as guage. I find a wedge shape (like an equilateral triangle?) allows me to brace fore and middle fingers against the thumb for better control better than the more popular teardrop shape.
Oh dear, let me get out of here before I am tempted into a discussion on the merits of different bodhran beaters! (Friends of mine have that conversation every session night!)
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Rob
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Funny you should mention Morrison's, as I'm working on that one and have always been in love with that tune. There's a lot of room for playing around with that opening, and I don't really do much with triplets there, mostly just playing back and forth between the E and B, and it works for me. I apply more triplets to the second part.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Plectrum Triplets
I dont really have advice since these guys said everything, lol-practice, go slow, think of it as one movement, etc. I was wondering how to keep your wrist loose after a triplet though. I do my triplets the same way as Reverend, but I learned a version of a reel that has a triplet every-every other bar and half way through it i start to slow down because my wrist tightens up to much... any advice? is it just a go slow and practice kind of thing?(seems like it always is
)
good luck with your triplets though, when I played the mandolin it was actually easier than the banjo for me because of the courses-you've sorta got two tries to hit the string each way you go.
the only advice i can offer though is to make sure you don't dig in with your pick too much. that was my problem at first.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by steve...r
Re: Plectrum Triplets
If you wanna hear some cool plectrum triplets, look for Brona Graham on youtube.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Plectrum Triplets
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_232_3_brona_graham_on_banjo/
Amazing playing.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Geoff Pollitt: "I use a Jim (sic) Dunlop 0.6 and the triplets are much easier than if I used a heavier plectrum."
For what it's worth, I use a J. Dunlop 0.73mm, and can't get decent triplets with anything else. I sometimes use a 0.60mm on banjo. I think playing triplets relies on a certain amount of 'bounce' - to me, the pick feels as if it is 'bouncing' when I play a triplet, and I am utilising that movement, rather than exerting force from my hand/wrist/arm. That, in turn, relies on having just the right amount of flexibility' in the pick (I don't fully understand the physics, but there appears to be some sort of 'impedance matching' going on between pick and string). Of course, you can, to a degree, vary the flexibility by changing the way you hold the pick - the closer to the point, or the tighter you hold it, the stiffer it will be. Naturally, each person is physiologically slightly different from the next, including in the shape, size and strength of their fingers, so some might be most comfortable using a light pick and 'tensioningf' it with the fingers, whilst others will prefer using a heavy pick and holding it lightly.
# Posted on November 14th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Lots of interesting replies here. I'm always amazed at how clearly other people can describe how they play. I nevre know how I play things and find that as soon as I think about it I can't do it. One of the few things I'm pretty sure that I do though is (almost?) always start triplets on a down stroke, that feels more natural to me and I just play them when they feel natural.
)
I think people can focus too much on technical aspects of this music apart from the music itself (tunes). Personally I think it is better to play the tunes expressively and enjoy them rather than hammering away at a technique that will be injected into a tune. Better that triplets etc grow out of playing the tune than grafted in from an external technique. (I'm overstating a tad by way of emphasis
I think banjo and mandolin players are particularly prone to becoming obsessed with triplets as an end in themselves, which isn't much fun and not always great music. Some of the best mandolin and banjo playing I hear isn't dominated by triplets (not that triplets are bad).
I'd agree that triplets are easier on the banjo. They certainly feel more natural to me on the banjo than the mandolin. I think this is partly ease of playing, but also partly that lots of triplets on a banjo sounds much better than lots of triplets on a mandolin. I think mandolin is not a scaled down wooden banjo, and sounds better handled in a differnt way from the tenor. For me that holds ever truer for octave mandolin/ mandola/ bouzouki/ call-it-what-you-will-mie. I play very few triplets on the big mando when I have a go at it, I think the intrument is more suited to a different style of playing tunes. But then I'm particularly poor on the big mando and dislikey using it for reels (I'm completely hopeless at accompaniment where the big mando really shines).
Sorry wandered somewhat OT here, pout it down to over wrok and lack of sleep...
- Chris
ps I like thin plecs for banjo too. can't play with thick plecs. Need a thicker one fro mando.
# Posted on November 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Plectrum Triplets
A previous thread on the matter:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16009
# Posted on November 14th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Those Brona triplets sound unpleasant to me. Very impressive, but not music.
# Posted on November 14th 2009 by gam
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Yes OrganicPeatCreature; JIM Dunlop. Who the hell is Frank Dunlop? I haven't been well.
# Posted on November 14th 2009 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Plectrum Triplets
There are certainly different styles of triplets. Some are more percussive, and some are more drawn out and rhythmic. MIne tend to be rapid fire, more like Brona's. But I did spend some time in the last year slowing them down to be more drawn out. It's an interesting difference in how they affect on the movement and flow of a tune. Ideally, I would think that you'd want to be able to do them both ways. But mine still end up fast and percussive when I'm playing at speed.
# Posted on November 14th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Plectrum Triplets
I prefer the more spaciously deployed triplets, like John Carty's. Brona's, and others', like Tommy People's, sound more like spasms, to me. Also, in jig ornamentation, do you, Pete, actually play triplets? I find that I play "doublets". That is to say, rather than, for example, DUD, I might play DduD, or perhaps DUdu. (two lower case letters= one upper case, in duration). How about you other players?
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by will morgan
Re: Plectrum Triplets
you're trying to play too fast. if you cant play a triplet at the speed you're playing at, then you cant play at that speed. slow it down and practice until you can. people on here are blaming the plectrum, but the plectrum doesnt make too much of a difference. its the man not the machine. just slow everything down until you can play the triplets. you dont actually have to put in triplets if you cant manage them
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by FastEddie
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Be guided-- watch this and learn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Ih2exOFNI
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by banjoian
Re: Plectrum Triplets
WOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91HrZhM9kYM
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: Plectrum Triplets
And this 10 year old put my jaw on the floor. Incredible playing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1tMeLRK5HY
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: Plectrum Triplets
So... way back when I was a wee lad, the drum instructors I had taught me to play a series of rudimentary exercises. They were designed to teach me to use alternating hands/sticks for accents. Example: R l r L r l R l r L etc. The idea being, you should be able to play accents with either hand at any time.
When I picked up the mando, I translated that into D u d U d u D u d U d u etc.
Recently I took a mandolin seminar at a local Celtic festival. It was a lot of fun and I learned a new tune. But the instructor said a properly played jig is played D u d D u d D u d in order to put a strong accent on the 1 and 4 count of a jig. When I try that on tunes I know everything falls completely apart. And I have to play MUCH slower.
So I guess what I'm asking is, is that really necessary? It's counter-intuitive and feels un-natural to the way I have always played drums and now mandolin.
Survey says???
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Fishmo, there are several discussion about this topic on the www.mandolincafe.com website.
DUD DUD is indeed counter-intuitive for most at first, but in the long run the results are better, most of the time, for most people. Not all the time, for all people. I believe that as a result of observation and listening, not from hard and fast theory.
I've changed from DUD UDU after 30 years to DUD DUD - it's been awkward but gets better.
Dan Beimborn uses and advocates DDU DDU which could be interesting to try
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Bren
Re: Plectrum Triplets
The above was meant for jig-picking, not decorative triplets.
Triplets in reels etc is a good expressive technique to have at your disposal. I don't believe they are compulsory
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Bren
Re: Plectrum Triplets
I used to believe that I picked DUD DUD consistently, but a discussion here some years back led me to examine my playing more closely and I realized that, although it's my default pattern, I vary it frequently to facilitate a triplet or a string crossing.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Slow, slow, slow --
The idea behind playing slowly is to take more than enough time -- not just enough time, but more than that -- to play what you want comfortably and well. You don't want to be always playing at the top of your ability. You may be able to play the triplet, but it's chancy. You should play so slowly that you can play the triplet and still have time to think about where you hid the bottle of Scotch last night...
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Jmbu
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Fishmonger:
I agree it is not necessary for everyone to play DUD DUD in jigs to get the dynamics right - Ashley Broder told me she finds it a waste of effort, and I could not detect from her playing any difference between a DUD or a UDU. There are a few like her, but probably not many. Chris Thiele is another. Like Bob, there are passages that I always do strictly alternate picking, but DUD DUD increasingly is the norm.
No one responded to my query earlier in this thread on how they do ornaments in jigs - are you using a "doublet" or an actual triplet? (Se above)
# Posted on November 18th 2009 by will morgan
Re: Plectrum Triplets
When I tried to 'teach myself' mandolin about 20 years ago I couldn't find a book related to irish music, so I used a banjo book. It recommended picking jigs whichever way was least effort and I spent ages practicing getting the accent right on jigs with all the sequences that came up. A lot later I came back to it, with the benefit of resources on the web and several books to read. Found it impossible to change to DUD DUD on tunes I already knew and on new tunes I would repeatedly slip back. Having not played dance tunes on the mandolin for a few years, and got to know the music better I could give it another go. But some habits are hard to get out of.
# Posted on November 18th 2009 by David50
Re: Plectrum Triplets
“I find that I play "doublets". That is to say, rather than, for example, DUD, I might play DduD, or perhaps DUdu. (two lower case letters= one upper case, in duration). How about you other players?”
I think what you’ve described here is what we refer to as triplets, even though the last note of the three has a longer duration than the other two. It’s actually a triplet of attacks, not of three equal notes.
# Posted on November 18th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Plectrum Triplets
Thanks, Bob - I see now that I misread the Reverend's first post in this thread. You're quite right.
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by will morgan
Re: Plectrum Triplets
I play triplets in jigs dudU DUD. the only reason to play Jigs DUD DUD is so the downstroke is on the beat. By doing triplets like this then the downstroke naturally falls on the beat.
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by woops
Re: Plectrum Triplets
I play some Greek Bouzouki pieces on the Octave Mandola e.g. "Hora Lemonopoulos" and must slow the tempo by a third or more to play the triplets, it's in 4/4. The greek Bouzouki has a longer scale length but Greek players of that instrument play as if they had ten fingers on their left hand?
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by O'Riabhaigh