I hear this all the time when someone spends more than a minute tuning ~ "Close enough!" I don't play a stringed instrument. Either flute or whistle. The best I can suss out (with my primitive ears) is that a session is *in tune* when each of the instruments is, at least, in tune with the tonal center for a particular key. I hope to nudge sessions into playing in tune ~ always. Sometimes the tunes sound grand. Other times, other sets not so good.
Bottom line; what is it about tuning a stringed instrument? Tuning 101 - For Dummies. Or should I just buy a cheap ukulele & find out for myself.
Thanks in advance!
I think we string players take such effort in tuning because we hear the marginally in tune (but not really) flutes and whistles happily playing tunes almost in tune with each other, and we vainly hope by some transmutation miracle that by tuning our instruments incessantly, the fluters and whistlers will magically start playing the same A.
I play mandolin. Most of the string players at my local session use an electronic tuner that clips to the headstock and picks up instrument vibration. I do the same. I don't know why more don't do this. One can tune to A440 without having to hear themselves. I can pluck quietly while everyone else is playing and get in perfect tune and not bother anyone. My local session stays pretty well in tune and the sets sound good.
I've heard the "close enough" comment plenty, and it irks me a little. Sure it's ITM and it doesn't have to be in perfect tune all the time to sound good. An instrument or two that's very slightly out of tune doesn't ruin the set. But please, please, string players, get a clip-on tuner. You will improve life for everyone.
I have heard some wonderful flute playing SWFL. I was hoping not to fall into the abyss of instrument bashing. But I knew this would be a bit controversial. I am still interested in getting players to be more aware of their tuning. I am not complaining about anyone who takes the time to tune. What I was saying is that some players will *try* & tune but it's still off. It ain't always the flutes though I am willing to discuss those issues as well.
Jeez, this is already looking bad. SWFL you're having me chase my own tail. Again! Cheers,sigh.
ok, here's the story...there is tuning, and then there is temperment.
We use an equaly TEMPERED tuning system where the natural 5ths are a little flat, and the natural 3rds are a little sharp from where they are in the natural overtone series
the thing is that if you were to tune all the 5ths, through the circle of 5ths from "C" to when you come back around to "C" again...then compare THAT "c" to one tuned from the octaves you will find thatt they don't match
it is called the Pythagorean Comma
the Greeks knew about it 3000 years ago
the result is that you can never have a perfectly tuned system because either the 5ths will be out of tune or the octaves will be out of tune. You cannot make them both be in tune
the result for us musicians is well over a hundred tuning systems that have been employed over the years, but the dominance of the piano-forte brought on the dominance of equal temperment in the 19th century
so there really is alot more to it than people think, and the more strings you have, and the bigger the range of your instrument, the more complicated it actually gets
The early generations of electronic tuners were worse than useless, but today you can get some fairly decent units. Even so, there is a small bit of technique involved in getting an accurate tuning. Most of them are digital, so there’s always a little discrete bit of room between In-Tune and Not-Quite-In-Tune. The trick is to tweak back and forth on either side of In-Tune until it feels like you’ve got the note in the center of In-Tune.
I tune by ear whenever I can hear well enough, but a good e-tuner can be handy in certain situations. A tuner with an old fashion d’Arsonval meter is unbeatable for setting intonation on fretted instruments.
Fretted instruments, however, are never really in tune.
Bob/Nate....here's something I've noticed and I meant to post a discussion but here goes as this is as good a place as any and it relates to sessions but also tuning by oneself. And it's this:
Why is that if I tune to this cd player I have which offers an ossciliscope or sine [?] wave tuner as well as your regular electronic pitches my fiddle always seems "more in tune with itself" [yes i tweak the strings after I tune to 'fifths'] when I tune each string beginning with A, then D, then G then finally the E to the ossciliscope, but not so much to my clip on tuner?
the clip on never seems to give as accurate results as tuning by ear to the sine wave?
but I don't know why. it just seems to be the case.
and, the instrument seems much more "in tune with itself" if I use the wave method as opposed to the clip on....
Well I did say "in perfect tune" in my post, didn't I? That was a poor choice of words. True, there is no such thing as perfect tune with stringed instruments, but there is what I like to call "happily in tune." In other words, it sounds good. My problem with the players who like to use the phrase "close enough" are rarely actually close enough. May as well say "I'm not in tune but I'm going to play anyway."
I find the clip on digital tuners pretty handy and don't intrude upon the session, but yes, it's not a perfect system. I play mando, so I'm usually under the radar anyway.
alot of times people who haven't been playing long just don't understand how to tune up and haven't trained their ears to hear the difference yet, anyway
many times when these people are playing guitars, it sort of compounds the problem because it is a hard instrument to tune anyway
and so since guitar is my native language, I am making a measured plea for forgiveness on behalf of guitar players wandering into sessions everywhere. In the words of St Stephen, "Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing"
I guess I'm guilty of saying "close enough" but I'm always joking when I do. I work hard at staying in tune with others. I am somewhat hearing impaired so I frequently ask the person next to me if it sounds okay to them. I appreciate it when they say a little flat or a little sharp so I can fix it. I do have to say that I have a difficult time playing with guitar players who tune every string electronically - especially if there is an accordion in the mix or a set of pipes. I can't seem to find that happily in tune place in this situation.
Cheers Nate. I played guitar for years. I have always had decent intonation, so I guess I take that for granted. The use of an e-tuner is no excuse to abandon good intonation. In my limited experience, these tuners work well, but that may be because most of the players at my local session have decent or better ears and therefore can effectively use one.
IMHO, mando is harder to tune and keep in tune than guitar due to the double courses. An out of tune mando sounds absolutely horrible.
there's something interesting, jimmy. I think the mando is easier to tune because of that very reason. I can hear when my mando is a little out alot easier than my guitar being a little out.
which just goes to show how individual all this really can get
one time in college I saw one of my musical idols not able to tune up. He said that there are just some days that he simply can't tune up
the more I asked around all the musicians I knew, the more I found how common that really was. It seems that we all have days that we have trouble tuning up
so add that to the fire...it depends on how you as an individual are feeling that day, too!
I, too, say "Close enough" when tuning the flute (though by ear, not to a tuner...) since that is all you can do. The aim is to get the note as close to A440 (or the reference note, e.g. drones on pipes) as possible _without_ correcting with the lips - leaving the lips to do all the correction needed on the fly while playing.
And first octave A is not really the best note to tune a flute to - better would be a palette of notes, such as D, G and B. Or maybe a (loud) D Drone which you can then play an arpeggio against. And don't forget to make sure that you're in tune in both octaves!
Harps are in some ways easier - just that there are a lot of strings. I learned a trick from an organ builder who would talk about "laying the scale" where you get a scale in the middle of the register, perfectly in tune (he would do this by ear but the beats are easier to hear with organ flue pipes).
Then he would just play one of the tuned scale notes and the octave above it and then carry on from there - basically as you are working with octaves, you just tune them until there are no beats - perfectly in tune. So the scale in the middle becomes the reference for the rest of the instrument's range above and below it.
I use a similar system with the harp where I tune the central 8 notes and then do the rest by playing octaves working up one note at a time from the middle octave and then the same for the other end of the compass, working down from the middle.
Seems to work well and it's quite a lot quicker than using the electronic tuner for every single note. Plus there are some notes particularly at the top end, that don't seem to work well with electronic tuners.
Just out of interest, in classical concerts I've noticed that often people tune up during the applause, which for me really spoils the memory of what I've just heard. Hope that never happens in folk sessions (but then the applause is pretty soon over where I play!!).
My apologies if any fluters took exception. I love playing with flutes. I do not bash. I slag light heartedly. My best mate plays flute and we tease each other unmercifully. Is this not traditional?
If I wanted to bash on tuning I'd start with the boxes. (bud dum, crash) No but seriously folks, I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip the waitress.
Hey, it's all a 'folk' music basically and 'close enough' really is fine. Just ignore that painful look on my face and keep playing, it's cool.
Harp! No offense to guitars, bouzoukis, bodhrans, etc. but that is the finest accompaniment instrument for ITM IMHO. Also a hell of a melody instrument. There is a harpist who goes to my local session sometimes who sets up, but only plays maybe 25% of the time, which is sad because when he does the sets sound brilliant. I am inclined to think it's because he plays a few tunes well, and stays out of it the rest of the time, which I respect highly. Then again, maybe he's mainly there for the comraderie and the beer. Just as respectable.
Anyway, sorry, I got carried away. I can't even imagine having to maintain tuning with that many strings.
So Nate et al...what then would be the ideal way to tune or instrument to tune to in a session? something that produces non tempered A as in flutes or pipes which, i presume, are putting out wave forms....or reed based isntruments? or simply the loudest instrument? say, an accordian or whatever.....
out of curiousity, what would happen if everyone, say, tuned to a tuning fork? likethe giant one in my local fiddle shop...maybe i could borrow it... ;)
Crackpot speaks truly about the flute. But there is a thing:
> The aim is to get the note as close to
> A440 (or the reference note, e.g. drones
> on pipes) as possible _without_ correcting
> with the lips - leaving the lips to do all the
> correction needed on the fly while playing.
My problem with this is that it's a bit like the old trick of saying "Don't think about a white monkey!". If I try that, I tend to relax more than when really playing, and that doesn't give quite the same pitch. So generally I know the tuning slide well enough to start in about the right place, and I try to listen as I play and correct if I'm seem to be sharp or flat in the tune.
I confess that I don't always get it right, but I plead that I do try!
The comment about the pallette of notes is right on too.
I'm plenty picky about intonation, but realistically, there's definitely such a thing as "close enough" when it comes to sessions.
Between the beer, the noise, and (more importantly) the generally imperfect fingers of everybody around the table--even if they're excellent musicians--there WILL be some wash. Add to that the fact that strings tend to go flatter as you play on them, the flute/whistle players have to navigate the subtleties of their instruments, the strummers are often using a capo, and the and that accordions are often wet-tuned (and often haven't been tuned in weeks)... Pythagorean commas are really not your issue.
(rhythm is more likely your issue, but that's another story for another time)
Just do your best to get it as good as possible, as quickly as possible, and get on with it.
In all likelihood, if somebody has spent a full minute tuning their instrument, they're probably getting self-conscious, and don't want to hold everyone up any longer. Besides, they know that after playing for 10 minutes it'll just change again... so they say "Close enough!", and get back to playing.
You bring up an interesting point Georgi, and I would like some other opinions. You say that strings tend to go flatter as you play them. I wonder what affect climate has on that factor. I'm in the dry desert climate of Arizona, and I've noticed that my mandolin will actually sharpen over time quite often. This is more when I have left the instrument in the bag for some time, then later I pick it up and have to tune down as it is sharp. I'm no expert on that, but I'm curious if anyone knows the explanation. Hmm, I should probably start a new thread, disrespectful. Then again, this is somewhat on topic. Too late, I've typed too much. Must post.
The worst thing is - strings get flat in the heat and wind instruments get sharp. Therefore in a hot room the original tuning goes out the window by the end of the first set! A re-tune after that is usually a good idea.
Anyway, to add to the bashing I find fiddles can play pretty out of tune, especially in the upper notes.
1) the bag is colder, shrinking the metal strings, and making them sharper.
2) the bag is more humid (though this is a stretch, since this doesn't happen either much or quickly). Wood expands in humid conditions, lengthening the neck minutely, and stretching the strings tighter.
3) But most likely, the strings are tighter on the peg side of the nut after you've been playing and tuning, and some time in the bag allows the tension to shift back across the nut, sharpening the tuning.
Actually, the first option seems the most likely. Or at least temperature changes. In Arizona, one is constantly going from hot to cool and back again.
....and it's not just the 5ths.......
For anyone with a guitar, especially if they regard it as being perfectly fretted and intonated.
Put it in tune using the finest tuner known to science; play a G chord, then play a D chord. Listen to that F sharp on the top string. Doesn't it sound just the slightest bit off ?
This works almost throughout the scale. There is hardly a note that, evenly tempered, sounds absolutely perfect. If you make an instrument that only plays in one key, then you can have it playing perfect intervals, sweet as the poo from a mother-fed baby. But it will clash with any even-tempered instrument designed for equal sounding in all keys.
We're just stuck with this system.
And then there's some fiddle players I know, otherwise lovely people, but both My Good Lady and I ( flute and bouzouki ) start trying to check our tuning if playing too near to them.
There are some good flute-players who can temper their playing by judicious over- or under-blowing to get the notes just right. Bloody marvellous I call that.
There's no point in agonizing about tuning your flute or whistle. All
you can do is get your A in the ballpark. Then pay attention while
you're playing and adjust in "real time" using all the available tricks.
On whistle you have less control, but you can still use finger height
and air speed. More than one whistle at a time usually sounds pretty
bad though. Any whistle gets on your nerves after a while.
Aside from the four open strings, there's no such thing as tuning a
fiddle. You have to tune every note every time while playing.
Even on the open strings you can force the pitch down with bow pressure. Well, on the G and D strings anyway.
Sigh . .. yes, I watch the free reeders sometimes and think, why am I
spending so much time on this when I could just cruise like they do.
I am learning concertina, though and it has its own special
horrors -- nothing to compare with fiddle though.
Seeings as - as has been perfectly explained by Nate - there is no such thing as being perfectly in tune, isn't "close enough" mere practical pragmatism?
A fiddle that's tuned in perfect 5ths (not tempered) will have that little extra bit of resonance, and it's something you can actually feel through the instrument and bow as you play. So you can sense that a string is starting to drift flat even if you may not be able to actually hear it against the background at that moment.
If someone can't be bothered to get their fiddle tuning right initially it doesn't bode well for their general intonation while playing - remember that every fingered note on the fiddle has to be individually tuned as it is played.
There are some other subtleties too, like making a distinction between two pitches of the high B on the E-string - one pitch will be used if your'e playing in E minor or A, and the other will be used if you're playing in G (the B is fractionally flatter in that case). This is the same sort of phenomenon that Guernsey Pete mentioned about 4 posts back, where an F# in a D chord on the guitar will sound a shade too sharp after an accurately tuned G chord - but the fiddle player is in a position to do something about it.
Earlier in this thread, someone noticed that he hears a difference between what his tuner tells him and what his ears tell him. Go with your ears. Tuners, especially the ones used to tune a piano, sample certain overtones and then calculate what the correct readings should be under ideal circumstances. If I were to tune a piano using an oscilloscope, where each note is exactly twice the frequence of the one an octave below, the treble would be painfully flat and the bass equally sharp.
Make sure your octaves are clean (ie, no beats). While tuning a flute, play both octaves, not just one. You will get better results.
When tuning my guitar in school, I start with high E. I strine B and E together, starting with B under pitch and bring it up slowly until it is almost (but not completely) beatless. I play high G (3rd fret) against the open G string, bringing the G string up from below. I play D on the B string against the open D, bringing it up from below; then A on the G string against open A, then both open Es together. I always get good results.
I tune pianos by ear, starting with an A=440 tuning fork. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.
Close enough is a subjective comment ~ a generalization at best.
One night my mate, who seems to be in constant battle with her guitjo, exclaimed,"Close enough" We found out pretty soon, close enough wouldn't even hit the barn. Those big red things with the gambrel roof, usually painted red. We all took plenty of time to tune to tune to each other. No longer was the session, "Close enough!" It was brilliant. One of our best sessions.
Peace & Wow you have all been busy while I worked the day away. Cheers!
If using a tuner on a whistle (not me, but what I recommend for whistle players that I play with who have problems) then I suggest that they play a short snatch of a tune (or random improv) ending on an A without looking at the tuner while someone else looks at the tuner and tells them wher to go
When tuning my flute I sometimes do something similar - I deliberately don't listen to the reference note until I have played a snatch of a tune (at full volume and enthusiasm) and then, while holding the A at the end (which I am hopefully blowing quite neutrally by now!) I start to try and correct it to match the reference. Since I know which way I am correcting, that tells me where the flute is. This can be annoying to other people trying to tune at the same time though.
I also know roughly where _my_ flutes tune when cold or warm, based on the tuning slide position, so I am rarely far out to start with.
I like the clip on tuners, they get used a lot in our session.
They might get used a lot less if we had any regular free reed players. But we have a lot of strings particularly among those that tend to turn up early. The clip on tuners speed things up and make it possible to tune "silently" without imposing on every one else and to make a quick check during a set.
I don't necessarily go for exactly what the tuner tells me though. I know from past experience that I like the G on my banjo tuned lower than indicated (but still visible on the tuner range). I also like the e tuned higehr than indicated, but find this less noticeable for some reason than the G. Threads like this one and precursors made me realise that it wasn't some mad personal bias. There might actually be a reason for setting the bass string (G) a little flat to the tuner and the treble (e) a little higher.
But the clip on tuner is a great aid.
On mandolin. I find mandolin takes longer to settle when the temperture changes than banjo. It definately needs constant monitoring for the first while. I guess this is partly to do with construction, but also partly to do with size (octave mandolins and bouzoukis in my experience are affected less than mandolins).
Our regular piper (hi emily) appears to have orders of magnitude less tuning problems than most other pipers I've played with. I think she spends less time fiddling with the tuning than any of the string players, whereas in the past I've seen pipers spend ages (and sometimes still be patently out of tune to the rest of the session and sometimes themselves).
I'll bet I'm not the only one here who's self esteem is so low that they are always convinced that they are out of tune.
Crackpot:
>If using a tuner on a whistle (not me, but what I recommend >for whistle players that I play with who have problems) then I >suggest that they play a short snatch of a tune (or random >improv)
If I want to check if I'm in tune (to myself) I always play the first few notes of a tune. I don't trust myself just to compare two frequencies outside of the context provided by a tune. Even if that tune hook is just eAA or ADD or DGG (the start of Mac's Fancy started on different strings) it means much more to my ears than eA, AD, or DG. Once I think I'm in tune (maybe) I'll play a couple of bars.
If I'm checking tuning against others, I'm never 95% sure after checking v A or D. I need to hear a tune together to get to 95%. I'm nevre 100% sure I'm in tune
I'm still trying to find out which small mammals need to be sacrificed to the gods of tuning to get my pipes quickly and reliably in tune. Almost anything will work for my smallpipes (fly, mosquito, annoyingly loud punter, etc.), but the border pipes still have problems getting to 440Hz. Or, expressed better; _I_ still have problems getting the border pipes to 440Hz in a session. And I really would not want to have to struggle with the Uilleann pipes! (My problem is not getting the pipes in tune with themselves - I manage that no problem.)
Also, people in a session have very little sympathy or understanding for a prolonged attempt to tune the border pipes
The guy who made the chanter and the reed bears more responsibility over the in-tune ness of those pipes than anything I have done.
The drones are moodier but I keep them off in sessions unless I am in a really quiet session, as they have such a low register that they can't be heard all that well in a loud pub. Also, some days I can get them bang on in tune easily and other days they just won't go into tune. If they are in a grumpy mood, I just leave them off. Had them playing last night in a session and it added an awesome sound to it, but they went into tune when I asked and the pub was unusually quiet. It's great when I can do that once in a blue moon.
Tune your instrument till satisfied it's bang in tune.
Now try to check how in tune it is by playing two chords:
First, play a major sixth chord consisting of open D string and the B natural above it (1st finger A string). Take time to ensure the tuning is absolutely true.
Now, without moving your 1st finger at all, try playing the chord formed by bowing the A and E strings.
Chances are that the resulting fourth is far from perfect. To get it in tune you'll want to raise the B slightly.
Now try retuning your instrument and start again...
Why do guitars have frets? If they didn't then there wouldn't be a problem with tuning.
(There probably wouldn't be so many guitarists around, but that's an irrelevant side-effect).
Random -- What are your feelings about this barn? Do you merely want to pepper it? A wet accordion could obliterate it; most every thing else next to it, for a pretty good, and broad distance too. You think it over.
I've been at plenty of sessions where people use clip-on tuners and still everyone seems to be in a different pitch - and sometimes out of tune with themselves as well. Conversely, I've been at sessions where everyone takes an A from the concertina, accordion, non-tunable whistle, tuning fork or even just an arbitrary note plucked out of thin air, and tunes together by ear - and everything sounds perfectly in tune.
Electronic tuners are certainly convenient for getting *somewhere in the ballpark* in an environment where you can't hear yourself. I first remember seeing the now ubiquitous clip-on tuners around 9 years ago. There were, of course, digital - and before them, analogue - tuners around long before that, but I didn't see them used all that often, probably owing to their relative inconvenience. Yet I hear no evidence of music being more in tune than it was then.
I remember way back, when I was taking my Grade VI exam I took forever to tune up before things got started. It was partly because I was nervous and had learned the trick to dawdle with the tuning as a way to get the breathing under control, but mostly because I'm hearing impaired and I needed the extra time to really confirm things were set. Well it paid off..... when I saw the examiner's report later he'd given me a big commendation for not being intimidated about taking the time to tune properly..... if only he'd known! Lesson learned..... it's worth doing and doing properly.
Tuning 101
Tuning 101
I hear this all the time when someone spends more than a minute tuning ~ "Close enough!" I don't play a stringed instrument. Either flute or whistle. The best I can suss out (with my primitive ears) is that a session is *in tune* when each of the instruments is, at least, in tune with the tonal center for a particular key. I hope to nudge sessions into playing in tune ~ always. Sometimes the tunes sound grand. Other times, other sets not so good.
Bottom line; what is it about tuning a stringed instrument? Tuning 101 - For Dummies. Or should I just buy a cheap ukulele & find out for myself.
Thanks in advance!
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Random_notes
- footnote -
While thinking up the OP it dawned on me I have never heard a mandolin player proclaim, "Close enough"
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Tuning 101
You know the definition of a chord is?
Three flute players playing A.
I think we string players take such effort in tuning because we hear the marginally in tune (but not really) flutes and whistles happily playing tunes almost in tune with each other, and we vainly hope by some transmutation miracle that by tuning our instruments incessantly, the fluters and whistlers will magically start playing the same A.
How's that sound?
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tuning 101
Very funny SWFL.
I play mandolin. Most of the string players at my local session use an electronic tuner that clips to the headstock and picks up instrument vibration. I do the same. I don't know why more don't do this. One can tune to A440 without having to hear themselves. I can pluck quietly while everyone else is playing and get in perfect tune and not bother anyone. My local session stays pretty well in tune and the sets sound good.
I've heard the "close enough" comment plenty, and it irks me a little. Sure it's ITM and it doesn't have to be in perfect tune all the time to sound good. An instrument or two that's very slightly out of tune doesn't ruin the set. But please, please, string players, get a clip-on tuner. You will improve life for everyone.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tuning 101
Incoming!
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Tuning 101
Oh boy. I must have posted a hum-dinger.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tuning 101
I have heard some wonderful flute playing SWFL. I was hoping not to fall into the abyss of instrument bashing. But I knew this would be a bit controversial. I am still interested in getting players to be more aware of their tuning. I am not complaining about anyone who takes the time to tune. What I was saying is that some players will *try* & tune but it's still off. It ain't always the flutes though I am willing to discuss those issues as well.
Jeez, this is already looking bad. SWFL you're having me chase my own tail. Again! Cheers,sigh.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Tuning 101
Bob, Been there done that.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Tuning 101
Just being silly, Jimmy. But some of the denizens hold strong opinions about the use of tuners.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Tuning 101
wish I could stay but I'm off to work. thanks SWFL, Jimmy B & Bob himself! Later . . .
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Tuning 101
ok, here's the story...there is tuning, and then there is temperment.
We use an equaly TEMPERED tuning system where the natural 5ths are a little flat, and the natural 3rds are a little sharp from where they are in the natural overtone series
the thing is that if you were to tune all the 5ths, through the circle of 5ths from "C" to when you come back around to "C" again...then compare THAT "c" to one tuned from the octaves you will find thatt they don't match
it is called the Pythagorean Comma
the Greeks knew about it 3000 years ago
the result is that you can never have a perfectly tuned system because either the 5ths will be out of tune or the octaves will be out of tune. You cannot make them both be in tune
the result for us musicians is well over a hundred tuning systems that have been employed over the years, but the dominance of the piano-forte brought on the dominance of equal temperment in the 19th century
so there really is alot more to it than people think, and the more strings you have, and the bigger the range of your instrument, the more complicated it actually gets
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Tuning 101
The early generations of electronic tuners were worse than useless, but today you can get some fairly decent units. Even so, there is a small bit of technique involved in getting an accurate tuning. Most of them are digital, so there’s always a little discrete bit of room between In-Tune and Not-Quite-In-Tune. The trick is to tweak back and forth on either side of In-Tune until it feels like you’ve got the note in the center of In-Tune.
I tune by ear whenever I can hear well enough, but a good e-tuner can be handy in certain situations. A tuner with an old fashion d’Arsonval meter is unbeatable for setting intonation on fretted instruments.
Fretted instruments, however, are never really in tune.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Tuning 101
Bob/Nate....here's something I've noticed and I meant to post a discussion but here goes as this is as good a place as any and it relates to sessions but also tuning by oneself. And it's this:
Why is that if I tune to this cd player I have which offers an ossciliscope or sine [?] wave tuner as well as your regular electronic pitches my fiddle always seems "more in tune with itself" [yes i tweak the strings after I tune to 'fifths'] when I tune each string beginning with A, then D, then G then finally the E to the ossciliscope, but not so much to my clip on tuner?
the clip on never seems to give as accurate results as tuning by ear to the sine wave?
but I don't know why. it just seems to be the case.
and, the instrument seems much more "in tune with itself" if I use the wave method as opposed to the clip on....
any thoughts?
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by mtodd
Re: Tuning 101
todd, this is because of temperment. The natural 5ths are sharper than the 5ths used in equal temperment
so when you tune by ear to yourself, or tune to an oscope with the waveforms, you are tuning to the NATURAL frequency and not the TEMPERED frequency
the clip on tuner is tuning to the tempered frequency, which is a little flat of where our ears tell us it should be when we hear the 5ths
this goes back to the Pythagorean Comma and why we have to temper our scales to begin with
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Tuning 101
Well I did say "in perfect tune" in my post, didn't I? That was a poor choice of words. True, there is no such thing as perfect tune with stringed instruments, but there is what I like to call "happily in tune." In other words, it sounds good. My problem with the players who like to use the phrase "close enough" are rarely actually close enough. May as well say "I'm not in tune but I'm going to play anyway."
I find the clip on digital tuners pretty handy and don't intrude upon the session, but yes, it's not a perfect system. I play mando, so I'm usually under the radar anyway.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tuning 101
alot of times people who haven't been playing long just don't understand how to tune up and haven't trained their ears to hear the difference yet, anyway
many times when these people are playing guitars, it sort of compounds the problem because it is a hard instrument to tune anyway
and so since guitar is my native language, I am making a measured plea for forgiveness on behalf of guitar players wandering into sessions everywhere. In the words of St Stephen, "Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing"
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Tuning 101
I guess I'm guilty of saying "close enough" but I'm always joking when I do. I work hard at staying in tune with others. I am somewhat hearing impaired so I frequently ask the person next to me if it sounds okay to them. I appreciate it when they say a little flat or a little sharp so I can fix it. I do have to say that I have a difficult time playing with guitar players who tune every string electronically - especially if there is an accordion in the mix or a set of pipes. I can't seem to find that happily in tune place in this situation.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by tacoman
Re: Tuning 101
Cheers Nate. I played guitar for years. I have always had decent intonation, so I guess I take that for granted. The use of an e-tuner is no excuse to abandon good intonation. In my limited experience, these tuners work well, but that may be because most of the players at my local session have decent or better ears and therefore can effectively use one.
IMHO, mando is harder to tune and keep in tune than guitar due to the double courses. An out of tune mando sounds absolutely horrible.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tuning 101
there's something interesting, jimmy. I think the mando is easier to tune because of that very reason. I can hear when my mando is a little out alot easier than my guitar being a little out.
which just goes to show how individual all this really can get
one time in college I saw one of my musical idols not able to tune up. He said that there are just some days that he simply can't tune up
the more I asked around all the musicians I knew, the more I found how common that really was. It seems that we all have days that we have trouble tuning up
so add that to the fire...it depends on how you as an individual are feeling that day, too!
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Tuning 101
I, too, say "Close enough" when tuning the flute (though by ear, not to a tuner...) since that is all you can do. The aim is to get the note as close to A440 (or the reference note, e.g. drones on pipes) as possible _without_ correcting with the lips - leaving the lips to do all the correction needed on the fly while playing.
And first octave A is not really the best note to tune a flute to - better would be a palette of notes, such as D, G and B. Or maybe a (loud) D Drone which you can then play an arpeggio against. And don't forget to make sure that you're in tune in both octaves!
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Tuning 101
And you have to do it all again after the first tune anyway.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Tuning 101
Harps are in some ways easier - just that there are a lot of strings. I learned a trick from an organ builder who would talk about "laying the scale" where you get a scale in the middle of the register, perfectly in tune (he would do this by ear but the beats are easier to hear with organ flue pipes).
Then he would just play one of the tuned scale notes and the octave above it and then carry on from there - basically as you are working with octaves, you just tune them until there are no beats - perfectly in tune. So the scale in the middle becomes the reference for the rest of the instrument's range above and below it.
I use a similar system with the harp where I tune the central 8 notes and then do the rest by playing octaves working up one note at a time from the middle octave and then the same for the other end of the compass, working down from the middle.
Seems to work well and it's quite a lot quicker than using the electronic tuner for every single note. Plus there are some notes particularly at the top end, that don't seem to work well with electronic tuners.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Tuning 101
Just out of interest, in classical concerts I've noticed that often people tune up during the applause, which for me really spoils the memory of what I've just heard. Hope that never happens in folk sessions (but then the applause is pretty soon over where I play!!).
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Tuning 101
My apologies if any fluters took exception. I love playing with flutes. I do not bash. I slag light heartedly. My best mate plays flute and we tease each other unmercifully. Is this not traditional?
If I wanted to bash on tuning I'd start with the boxes. (bud dum, crash) No but seriously folks, I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip the waitress.
Hey, it's all a 'folk' music basically and 'close enough' really is fine. Just ignore that painful look on my face and keep playing, it's cool.
What's worse than three flutes playing A?
Three whistles playing A.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tuning 101
Harp! No offense to guitars, bouzoukis, bodhrans, etc. but that is the finest accompaniment instrument for ITM IMHO. Also a hell of a melody instrument. There is a harpist who goes to my local session sometimes who sets up, but only plays maybe 25% of the time, which is sad because when he does the sets sound brilliant. I am inclined to think it's because he plays a few tunes well, and stays out of it the rest of the time, which I respect highly. Then again, maybe he's mainly there for the comraderie and the beer. Just as respectable.
Anyway, sorry, I got carried away. I can't even imagine having to maintain tuning with that many strings.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tuning 101
Don't say "folk music" around llig!
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Tuning 101
So Nate et al...what then would be the ideal way to tune or instrument to tune to in a session? something that produces non tempered A as in flutes or pipes which, i presume, are putting out wave forms....or reed based isntruments? or simply the loudest instrument? say, an accordian or whatever.....
out of curiousity, what would happen if everyone, say, tuned to a tuning fork? likethe giant one in my local fiddle shop...maybe i could borrow it... ;)
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by mtodd
Re: Tuning 101
HA! Bob, I think he's used to my craziness by now. I think he just smiles and nods: "Oh jeez, it's the Florida nutter again..."
Jimmy, I second that, I love harp, but most Americans go through strum withdrawl. "It sounds too tinkly! Where's my boom chucka?" Sigh.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tuning 101
mtodd has the solution! A giant tuning fork!
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tuning 101
Crackpot speaks truly about the flute. But there is a thing:
> The aim is to get the note as close to
> A440 (or the reference note, e.g. drones
> on pipes) as possible _without_ correcting
> with the lips - leaving the lips to do all the
> correction needed on the fly while playing.
My problem with this is that it's a bit like the old trick of saying "Don't think about a white monkey!". If I try that, I tend to relax more than when really playing, and that doesn't give quite the same pitch. So generally I know the tuning slide well enough to start in about the right place, and I try to listen as I play and correct if I'm seem to be sharp or flat in the tune.
I confess that I don't always get it right, but I plead that I do try!
The comment about the pallette of notes is right on too.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Lingpupa
Re: Tuning 101
I'm plenty picky about intonation, but realistically, there's definitely such a thing as "close enough" when it comes to sessions.
Between the beer, the noise, and (more importantly) the generally imperfect fingers of everybody around the table--even if they're excellent musicians--there WILL be some wash. Add to that the fact that strings tend to go flatter as you play on them, the flute/whistle players have to navigate the subtleties of their instruments, the strummers are often using a capo, and the and that accordions are often wet-tuned (and often haven't been tuned in weeks)... Pythagorean commas are really not your issue.
(rhythm is more likely your issue, but that's another story for another time)
Just do your best to get it as good as possible, as quickly as possible, and get on with it.
In all likelihood, if somebody has spent a full minute tuning their instrument, they're probably getting self-conscious, and don't want to hold everyone up any longer. Besides, they know that after playing for 10 minutes it'll just change again... so they say "Close enough!", and get back to playing.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Georgi
Re: Tuning 101
mtodd, mtodd!
hear, hear!
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1193/989077643_7bc7e2cc21.jpg
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Tuning 101
You bring up an interesting point Georgi, and I would like some other opinions. You say that strings tend to go flatter as you play them. I wonder what affect climate has on that factor. I'm in the dry desert climate of Arizona, and I've noticed that my mandolin will actually sharpen over time quite often. This is more when I have left the instrument in the bag for some time, then later I pick it up and have to tune down as it is sharp. I'm no expert on that, but I'm curious if anyone knows the explanation. Hmm, I should probably start a new thread, disrespectful. Then again, this is somewhat on topic. Too late, I've typed too much. Must post.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tuning 101
The worst thing is - strings get flat in the heat and wind instruments get sharp. Therefore in a hot room the original tuning goes out the window by the end of the first set! A re-tune after that is usually a good idea.
Anyway, to add to the bashing
I find fiddles can play pretty out of tune, especially in the upper notes.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Bredna
Re: Tuning 101
Jimmy B,
Three possibilities spring to mind:
1) the bag is colder, shrinking the metal strings, and making them sharper.
2) the bag is more humid (though this is a stretch, since this doesn't happen either much or quickly). Wood expands in humid conditions, lengthening the neck minutely, and stretching the strings tighter.
3) But most likely, the strings are tighter on the peg side of the nut after you've been playing and tuning, and some time in the bag allows the tension to shift back across the nut, sharpening the tuning.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Georgi
Re: Tuning 101
Actually, the first option seems the most likely. Or at least temperature changes. In Arizona, one is constantly going from hot to cool and back again.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tuning 101
....and it's not just the 5ths.......
For anyone with a guitar, especially if they regard it as being perfectly fretted and intonated.
Put it in tune using the finest tuner known to science; play a G chord, then play a D chord. Listen to that F sharp on the top string. Doesn't it sound just the slightest bit off ?
This works almost throughout the scale. There is hardly a note that, evenly tempered, sounds absolutely perfect. If you make an instrument that only plays in one key, then you can have it playing perfect intervals, sweet as the poo from a mother-fed baby. But it will clash with any even-tempered instrument designed for equal sounding in all keys.
We're just stuck with this system.
And then there's some fiddle players I know, otherwise lovely people, but both My Good Lady and I ( flute and bouzouki ) start trying to check our tuning if playing too near to them.
There are some good flute-players who can temper their playing by judicious over- or under-blowing to get the notes just right. Bloody marvellous I call that.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Tuning 101
There's no point in agonizing about tuning your flute or whistle. All
you can do is get your A in the ballpark. Then pay attention while
you're playing and adjust in "real time" using all the available tricks.
On whistle you have less control, but you can still use finger height
and air speed. More than one whistle at a time usually sounds pretty
bad though. Any whistle gets on your nerves after a while.
Aside from the four open strings, there's no such thing as tuning a
fiddle. You have to tune every note every time while playing.
Even on the open strings you can force the pitch down with bow pressure. Well, on the G and D strings anyway.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Hup
Re: Tuning 101
No such thing as tuning a fiddle? Some of us have already noticed.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tuning 101
Sigh . .. yes, I watch the free reeders sometimes and think, why am I
spending so much time on this when I could just cruise like they do.
I am learning concertina, though and it has its own special
horrors -- nothing to compare with fiddle though.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Hup
Re: Tuning 101
Seeings as - as has been perfectly explained by Nate - there is no such thing as being perfectly in tune, isn't "close enough" mere practical pragmatism?
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tuning 101
A fiddle that's tuned in perfect 5ths (not tempered) will have that little extra bit of resonance, and it's something you can actually feel through the instrument and bow as you play. So you can sense that a string is starting to drift flat even if you may not be able to actually hear it against the background at that moment.
If someone can't be bothered to get their fiddle tuning right initially it doesn't bode well for their general intonation while playing - remember that every fingered note on the fiddle has to be individually tuned as it is played.
There are some other subtleties too, like making a distinction between two pitches of the high B on the E-string - one pitch will be used if your'e playing in E minor or A, and the other will be used if you're playing in G (the B is fractionally flatter in that case). This is the same sort of phenomenon that Guernsey Pete mentioned about 4 posts back, where an F# in a D chord on the guitar will sound a shade too sharp after an accurately tuned G chord - but the fiddle player is in a position to do something about it.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Tuning 101
What do you call two whistles playing in unison?
A minor second....
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Tuning 101
Earlier in this thread, someone noticed that he hears a difference between what his tuner tells him and what his ears tell him. Go with your ears. Tuners, especially the ones used to tune a piano, sample certain overtones and then calculate what the correct readings should be under ideal circumstances. If I were to tune a piano using an oscilloscope, where each note is exactly twice the frequence of the one an octave below, the treble would be painfully flat and the bass equally sharp.
Make sure your octaves are clean (ie, no beats). While tuning a flute, play both octaves, not just one. You will get better results.
When tuning my guitar in school, I start with high E. I strine B and E together, starting with B under pitch and bring it up slowly until it is almost (but not completely) beatless. I play high G (3rd fret) against the open G string, bringing the G string up from below. I play D on the B string against the open D, bringing it up from below; then A on the G string against open A, then both open Es together. I always get good results.
I tune pianos by ear, starting with an A=440 tuning fork. But that's a whole other kettle of fish.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Tuning 101
Close enough is a subjective comment ~ a generalization at best.
One night my mate, who seems to be in constant battle with her guitjo, exclaimed,"Close enough" We found out pretty soon, close enough wouldn't even hit the barn. Those big red things with the gambrel roof, usually painted red. We all took plenty of time to tune to tune to each other. No longer was the session, "Close enough!" It was brilliant. One of our best sessions.
Peace & Wow you have all been busy while I worked the day away. Cheers!
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Random_notes
I like, "almost (but not completely) beatless" ~ GtPT
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Tuning 101
If using a tuner on a whistle (not me, but what I recommend for whistle players that I play with who have problems) then I suggest that they play a short snatch of a tune (or random improv) ending on an A without looking at the tuner while someone else looks at the tuner and tells them wher to go
When tuning my flute I sometimes do something similar - I deliberately don't listen to the reference note until I have played a snatch of a tune (at full volume and enthusiasm) and then, while holding the A at the end (which I am hopefully blowing quite neutrally by now!) I start to try and correct it to match the reference. Since I know which way I am correcting, that tells me where the flute is. This can be annoying to other people trying to tune at the same time though.
I also know roughly where _my_ flutes tune when cold or warm, based on the tuning slide position, so I am rarely far out to start with.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Tuning 101
I like the clip on tuners, they get used a lot in our session.
They might get used a lot less if we had any regular free reed players. But we have a lot of strings particularly among those that tend to turn up early. The clip on tuners speed things up and make it possible to tune "silently" without imposing on every one else and to make a quick check during a set.
I don't necessarily go for exactly what the tuner tells me though. I know from past experience that I like the G on my banjo tuned lower than indicated (but still visible on the tuner range). I also like the e tuned higehr than indicated, but find this less noticeable for some reason than the G. Threads like this one and precursors made me realise that it wasn't some mad personal bias. There might actually be a reason for setting the bass string (G) a little flat to the tuner and the treble (e) a little higher.
But the clip on tuner is a great aid.
On mandolin. I find mandolin takes longer to settle when the temperture changes than banjo. It definately needs constant monitoring for the first while. I guess this is partly to do with construction, but also partly to do with size (octave mandolins and bouzoukis in my experience are affected less than mandolins).
Our regular piper (hi emily) appears to have orders of magnitude less tuning problems than most other pipers I've played with. I think she spends less time fiddling with the tuning than any of the string players, whereas in the past I've seen pipers spend ages (and sometimes still be patently out of tune to the rest of the session and sometimes themselves).
I'll bet I'm not the only one here who's self esteem is so low that they are always convinced that they are out of tune.
- Chris
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tuning 101
Crackpot:
>If using a tuner on a whistle (not me, but what I recommend >for whistle players that I play with who have problems) then I >suggest that they play a short snatch of a tune (or random >improv)
If I want to check if I'm in tune (to myself) I always play the first few notes of a tune. I don't trust myself just to compare two frequencies outside of the context provided by a tune. Even if that tune hook is just eAA or ADD or DGG (the start of Mac's Fancy started on different strings) it means much more to my ears than eA, AD, or DG. Once I think I'm in tune (maybe) I'll play a couple of bars.
If I'm checking tuning against others, I'm never 95% sure after checking v A or D. I need to hear a tune together to get to 95%. I'm nevre 100% sure I'm in tune
- chris
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tuning 101
I'm still trying to find out which small mammals need to be sacrificed to the gods of tuning to get my pipes quickly and reliably in tune. Almost anything will work for my smallpipes (fly, mosquito, annoyingly loud punter, etc.), but the border pipes still have problems getting to 440Hz. Or, expressed better; _I_ still have problems getting the border pipes to 440Hz in a session. And I really would not want to have to struggle with the Uilleann pipes! (My problem is not getting the pipes in tune with themselves - I manage that no problem.)
Also, people in a session have very little sympathy or understanding for a prolonged attempt to tune the border pipes
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Tuning 101
The guy who made the chanter and the reed bears more responsibility over the in-tune ness of those pipes than anything I have done.
The drones are moodier but I keep them off in sessions unless I am in a really quiet session, as they have such a low register that they can't be heard all that well in a loud pub. Also, some days I can get them bang on in tune easily and other days they just won't go into tune. If they are in a grumpy mood, I just leave them off. Had them playing last night in a session and it added an awesome sound to it, but they went into tune when I asked and the pub was unusually quiet. It's great when I can do that once in a blue moon.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Tuning 101
A little something for fiddle players to try:
Tune your instrument till satisfied it's bang in tune.
Now try to check how in tune it is by playing two chords:
First, play a major sixth chord consisting of open D string and the B natural above it (1st finger A string). Take time to ensure the tuning is absolutely true.
Now, without moving your 1st finger at all, try playing the chord formed by bowing the A and E strings.
Chances are that the resulting fourth is far from perfect. To get it in tune you'll want to raise the B slightly.
Now try retuning your instrument and start again...
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Presumin Ed
Re: Tuning 101
... and again ... and again ... and again ... until you say to yourself, "close enough".
Or have a moment of epiphany and realise why your fiddle has no frets.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tuning 101
My wife's carpenter brother has an expression that he tells me they all use in the trade: "within tolerances"....
tuning/carpentry....close enough.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by mtodd
Re: Tuning 101
That's perfect, I'm using that from now on.
"Can we tune?"
"Sure."
Screetch, scrape, toot, honk, plunk.
"How's that?"
"That's within tolerances. Folks? Can everyone be tolerant of that?"
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tuning 101
I second that. "Within tolerances." I'm using that as well. I'm also going to bring a bubble level to session with me and sit it on the table.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tuning 101
think of this now....a tunable bodhran. what a great oxymoron!
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by mtodd
Re: Tuning 101
ha ha, yeah ... tunable within a bodhran players tolerances.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tuning 101
now, wouldn't you have a "zero tolerance" policy as far as said instrument goes? ;) I guess it depends on how even 'tempered' you are...
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by mtodd
Re: Tuning 101
Why do guitars have frets? If they didn't then there wouldn't be a problem with tuning.
(There probably wouldn't be so many guitarists around, but that's an irrelevant side-effect).
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Tuning 101
Random -- What are your feelings about this barn? Do you merely want to pepper it? A wet accordion could obliterate it; most every thing else next to it, for a pretty good, and broad distance too. You think it over.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Tuning 101
I've been at plenty of sessions where people use clip-on tuners and still everyone seems to be in a different pitch - and sometimes out of tune with themselves as well. Conversely, I've been at sessions where everyone takes an A from the concertina, accordion, non-tunable whistle, tuning fork or even just an arbitrary note plucked out of thin air, and tunes together by ear - and everything sounds perfectly in tune.
Electronic tuners are certainly convenient for getting *somewhere in the ballpark* in an environment where you can't hear yourself. I first remember seeing the now ubiquitous clip-on tuners around 9 years ago. There were, of course, digital - and before them, analogue - tuners around long before that, but I didn't see them used all that often, probably owing to their relative inconvenience. Yet I hear no evidence of music being more in tune than it was then.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Tuning 101
we tend to share the one or two tuners between the string players, maybe that helps.
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tuning 101
I remember way back, when I was taking my Grade VI exam I took forever to tune up before things got started. It was partly because I was nervous and had learned the trick to dawdle with the tuning as a way to get the breathing under control, but mostly because I'm hearing impaired and I needed the extra time to really confirm things were set. Well it paid off..... when I saw the examiner's report later he'd given me a big commendation for not being intimidated about taking the time to tune properly..... if only he'd known!
Lesson learned..... it's worth doing and doing properly.
# Posted on November 7th 2009 by CarolWhitaker
Re: Tuning 101
I love barns Quigley. I lived in one for a time. It was always fun when we started playing music & people would just wander in to listen.
# Posted on November 7th 2009 by Random_notes