Yes, it's about sheetmusic, notation, its uses and abuses, whether or not it is useful, benign, debilitating, useless, damaging, addictive, toxic? Hey, and any tales of woe and elation would be most welcome too, please...
& to start ~
While feeling my rust, I've been taking in the occassional session, generally listening more than participating, and enjoying it. And sometimes getting a good laugh too, though I will try to keep it hidden if it is at someone else's expense, not uncommon in a session, at least from my point of view and sense of humour. At one session I've found myself having great difficulty holding back the involuntary chuckle.
There's this sweet rolly-polly guy who comes along with his several instruments and possibly his complete library of tune books and notes. In short order he has books open on the floor around his chair, and on the near table, even on a nearby chair if there's one free. He rifles through them and sometimes calls out what he's planning found that he's planning to play, from the sheet. The most recent hoot I couldn't suppress, except to cover my face and pretend I was holding back a cough, was when he asked one musician who had just risen to go for a p*ss, with book and instrument in hand ~ "What tune are you going to play next? I need to see if I've got it here somewhere!" 'Somewhere' was at least a dozen books. I guess hauling those around with his instruments might count as good exercise?
In another situation, at some point he suggested playing polkas, pulling out and opening up his copy of "Mally Presents 100 Irish Polkas". I so wanted to start a set of polkas that I knew weren't in the book, but resisted...
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
we had a guy come and play with my jazz band last spring. He was a friend of my bass player, so we gave him alot of latitude.
But while we were standing there waiting for him to sift through all his paper for something he could play, I finally had had about enough and said "you better find something soon, or I'm calling 'Giant Steps' "
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I was recently at an event, (in Ireland) where some German musicians, very nice people but clearly not much idea what is normal in an Irish session, turned up with their folder of music, and even a music stand. They played a couple of numbers from the dots, then someone else started singing Spancil Hill. I had to suppress a laugh as the German musicians began frantically rumaging through their folder, clearly they knew they had Spancil Hill in there somewhere!
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No matter how many times this subject comes up, I still find it interesting. Besides, many newcomers have joined us since the last go-around.
I usually keep out of dots discussions because I am relatively new here, and since I come from outside the tradition I don't feel sufficiently "vested" to be able to add much to these discussions. I will probably never play ITM as completely as I play classical music, but enjoy it just the same.
Newcomers from outside the tradition naturally expect written notation to be a part of their learning; I did. Very few musical traditions are completely aural, and this is the message we must bring to those who join us at our sessions. A gentle remark as someone totes a looseleaf binder through the door will go a long way.
Our slow session takes place before the regular session, and at the slow session you will see books, binders, notes, recording devices, sometimes even music stands, but never at the regular session.
It's not the notation that's the problem; it's the use and role of that notation. That needs to be made clear to newcomers (even oldcomers.)
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ceolachan, I think you should have gone ahead and started that set of polkas which you knew isn't in "Mally Presents 100 Irish Polkas" just to have some fun and mess with the man's mind.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Batlady, at our local sessions, there are several tunes which we learned out of the Fiddler's Fake Book. We memorized them so we never have to bring the book or any sheet music to the sessions.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Im pretty sure I have never see dots in a session, guess I dont hang out in the right sessions
The very idea is completely Alien, Its like making love and referring to a textbook while yer at it,! '' hang on a moment love , just want to find the right page! ''LOL
Or driving a car with the manual on the dash board! though not so dangerous of course!
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
You could bring along a supply of disposable butane lighters, and when your man launches into a dot-fueled set of tunes, hand them around, light up and hold them high, and sway together in time...
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I've just, finally, had the care sorted, a problem with a split line making it sound like a popcorn machine, and dying to a stop after a few coghs worth of idle. Thanks for the laughs, my spirits have been rising with every contribution so far...
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I learn from dots.
I never bring dots to sessions.
I rarely call out the tunes I am going to play. Most times I don't even know what will be the next tune until the last b part. When dot readers find that irksome, I emphasize that that is the reason why memorizing is so important.
Books on the floor, chairs, tables or music stands are near intolerable.
On the other hand, we have a genius that can play tunes from sheet music the first time he has seen the tune better than some who have played the tune for years. Many times after everyone has left, he and I have gone thru this tune book page by page and I had the chance to play tunes that I never otherwise do since no one else knows them.
In conclusion, bringing sheet music to sessions, though sometimes reluctantly tolerated, should never be welcomed, certainly not encouraged.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Okay, I get it, no dots, learn by ear, moving on.
Seriously, though, I have learned some of the few tunes I know so far with the help of the dots, then once I have the notes and it is in the ballpark of what I know the tune to sound like, I throw the dots away. I can say from that experience that I think a big motivation for those who are entering the session world for the first time learn some tunes from sheet music because they don't want to show up at their first session empty-handed, so to speak, and because they are used to learning music that way. That I understand, but to show up with piles of sheet music and actually pulling it out in-session certainly seems odd even to this novice.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Some random thoughts on the well beat mule of this debate:
You might be able to learn a tune from sheet music, but you can't learn this music from sheet music.
And yet, have pity on the great unwashed masses, far away from the cultural heartbeat of Irish music, learned note by note at the knee of a great uncle by a crackling hearth fire. Many out in the vast diaspora and far flung continents don't have that opportunity and so, reach for the next best thing - a book of Irish tunes. As Greg (the piano tuner) notes, a simple nudge in the right direction is all most newbies need to get them to embrace the beauty of aural tradition and cast away the crutches of dots.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
It's just I don't think it does any (much?) good to actively "memorise" the tune. I like the word "internalise" that some others have used. Basically, you just have to know it, the way that you know the tune to Happy Birthday or Twinkle Twinkle.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Actually I've never figured out happy birthday, its one of those tune I know I should work out but I've just never got around to it. But anyhow, how do you differentiate between memorising a tune and somehow internalising it? what do you do thats different? How do you define 'know'? What is the difference between 'knowing' through memorising, and 'knowing' through internalisation?
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ethical blend, forgive me for jumping in here, but I would surmise that memorizing a tune is just the simple input and output of the basic phrases - which of course is fine and dandy for most of us. However, I'm guessing your take of "internalizing a tune" means to be able take the phrases and expand on the ideas, interpret and extrapolate, milk it for all it's worth. Like a Tommy People's type of thing. I'm I close or did I miss your point?
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"You might be able to learn a tune from sheet music, but you can't learn this music from sheet music."
On the face of it this seems pretty straight forward. However:
THE MUSIC IS THE TUNES
I like to play with cracklingly good players. There is tons of variation it their music, tons of inventiveness, new stuff every time. It's the music. If I want to play their tunes with them the worst thing I could do would be to go to some silly written 2% extrapolation and memorise that. The only way to do it is just to listen and internalise the sounds. Any attempted short cut can be nothing more than a distraction.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Spoken like a seasoned, long time player, with a thousand tunes in his head Llig. You have, however, perhaps forgotten what it felt like to be a beginner. "Internalisation" is a wonderful lofty goal to aspire to - however, some of us are just trying to make a nice pass at a tune three times through without fecking it up. Yes the music is the tunes - no arguing that. However, I know a talented, classically trained violin player who learned a few tunes off the dots. Does, she know the tunes? Sure - I guess. Does she understand what it takes to play Irish music? No. Far from it. That's my point.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
You can't split the difference. Your mate didn't learn a few tunes of the dots, she learned some silly written 2% extrapolation of a few tunes off the dots. She doesn't know those tunes. She doesn't understand what it takes to play the music. You can't split the difference.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Interesting take Llig. The written music component only constitutes 2% of the potential of a tune. The other 98% is interpretation, expression, talent, experience and internalisation? I know you like to paint in sweeping generalisations, but this idea certainly reduces sheet music to the most rudimentary DNA imaginable.
My Gawd - I sure have a long way to go. I figure my take on something like the Flogging Reel is about 8% based on the Llig formula. Tragic...
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
If that is the case llig then why do folk like Matt Crannitch, Leo Rowesome write the tunes down for people to learn from? You think you are right and they were wrong to do this? You really think that it was best off that Bunker hill for example, was lost to us all?
How do you reconcile your view point when taking into account the fact that this tune in particular was resurected from the dots, if you play it , then you learnt it from someone, who learnt it from someone who learnt it from the dots. How many more of your tunes came to you via notation at some stage of transmission?
What about people who are learners but dont have access to a session?
What about people who wish to play Irish tunes in an old time style and have no interest in your rigid concepts of right and wrong?
How do you reconcile this position with your assertion the other day that you play the correct setting of the Salamanca and Bobby Casey and co play an incorrect setting? When we learn his setting , by ear , from Bobby Casey, we are still playing it wrong according to you.
No I dont expect you to answer these question to be honest they might require you to examine your own position and I dont somehow see you as being willing or able to actually question yourself and your dogmatic contentions. However, feel free to prove me wrong here.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
This is Folk Music innit ? Music for the People ?? ..
People should be able to do what they bloody-well want....learn the Music from dots ..learn the Music by ear...
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ionannas ~ mate, if you really want to take on Gill (not musically of course, he is probably better than you) but if you want to challenge his online barbs here is a widely known secret:
He sucks at grammar & math.
You're welcome ;)
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Some people can hear the music from the dots. They know the idiom of that genre so well, and they're so "in tune" with the sounds that the dots represent, that they simply *hear* the music off the page.
This isn't some abstract theory--it's how I hear the dots based on 43 years of familiarity with them. And I know other experienced musicians who "sight hear" as well.
Sight hearing comes in very handy when you play orchestral music, where you're expected to play the piece pretty much "as written" and the score includes details such as tempo, dynamics, phrasing, bowing, etc. that the composer or arranger expects the players to heed.
Sight hearing is also useful in genres that emphasize improvising, like jazz and rock, where you can use a fake book to suss out the bones of a piece and then launch into your own chord or scale based interpretation.
But sight hearing (and hence music notation) is only marginally useful, at best, in this strongly aural tradition where playing in near-unison is the norm (vs. polyphonic genres), and the music itself is more than a skeletal melody.
In contrast to following the guidelines on a page, for us session players, it's far more important to be able to instantly feel and blend with the tempo, rhythm, timing, key and mode choices, and other features of a tune *on the fly,* as these details are being generated live and in real time by the person who started the tune and as the set moves from one tune to the next (each tune with its own personality and feel).
In short, being able to near-instantly ***play what you hear*** is a crucial skill for fully participating in a well-oiled Irish session. And reading sheet music--even "sight hearing" with some adroitness--doesn't really help us immediately play what we hear in such a fluid, fast-paced situation as a typical session.
Rather than postpone learning to play what you hear by looking to the dots for help, it makes more sense to me to learn by ear from another player, and failing that, to learn to listen better, more closely, to recordings until you can suss out exactly what's being played in all its fullness.
Of course, if you don't aspire to playing in a typical session, then you may find the dots helpful. But be wary of thinking that they will prepare you well for sessions.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
JNE - that's not really what I meant ... I've heard great players in sessions (not well-known players, just great players) playing a tune over and over, and never the same twice. They swear that they ARE playing the tune exactly the same every time. But they're not.
What's happening there is that the tune is just pouring out of them. They have the tune. But you can bet anything they never actively memorised it.
This is different from saying anything about dots, which seem to me to be just ANOTHER obstacle between a player and the tune.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"In short, being able to near-instantly ***play what you hear*** is a crucial skill for fully participating in a well-oiled Irish session." (Miss L) That ought to be the killer argument.
Not just a well-oiled session. Where I'm at its needed so as not to get glares from other beginners using the dots. Can't do it though - I have to peek at their dots. Is this progress ?
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ethical Blend, how do you actively memorise something? what is the process? I simply listen to, and/or play, the music till I remember the tune. How do you do it?
What is different between me memorising a tune and you internalising?which off course is IMO the same thing.
What makes you think they are any different?
Maybe you simply mistake their meaning when they say they play the tune the same each time ? Perhaps they define tune as melody or framework; the bones, They vary it, but its still the same tune.
What makes you so sure they never memorised the tune?
Well said miss lonelyhearts!
Random, I have no interest in 'taking on' llig, I just question the stuff he posts here If it is based in truth , reality, experience, and not egotistic bull, then why would he not engage and answer the questions?
As far as better? really ? well he doesnt even have the nerve to upload his solo playing so I can only judge from the nonsense he spouts here, which firmly indicates he knows a lot less than he thinks, A typical example being he plays the right setting and Bobby Casey/ Tommy Peoples plays it wrong. Now that really does show how little he knows of the Music. Sorry I cant get over that one, what a stuck up and ridiculous assertion If I ever heard one. Why doesnt he actually demonstrate his music?
Anyhow how can you compare chalk and cheese Random?
Do you really think I hadn't noticed his grammer/spelling?!?? Come on, I wouldn't stoop so low as to mock someone's spelling. Anyhow I rely on spell check so I would be the pot calling the kettle black in this case. No I have not even the slightest interest in petty point scoring, simply the truth.
Great new book through the post today! Tunes of the Munster Pipers compiled by James Goodman in the early 1800.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Llig quote>
"There is tons of variation it their music, tons of inventiveness, new stuff every time. It's the music. If I want to play their tunes with them the worst thing I could do would be to go to some silly written 2% extrapolation and memorise that."
Bones? Body? Do you really even need to know what the bones look like to know there's a skeleton in that body? Too busy looking at the body. Ha ha. I couldn't give my nonsense a rest.
...but seriously. In learning new tunes I can't imagine the tune without hearing first, even from the dots. I can guess.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
What's the difference between actively memorising and actually having the tune? I've known masses of these tunes all my life. Now, trying to PLAY them on the wretched instrument is frustrating. But ... at least I have the tunes. So, the notes aren't a problem.
Still, every now and then I hear a tune I don't know that grabs me. Maybe it's on a CD. Maybe I hear it played on a few different occasions at various sessions. I find myself humming the thing. Before you know it, there it is, going through my head all the time. Until it's replaced by another.
Learning this damn' flute thing meant that, in actually trying to play, I've tried once or twice actively to learn a tune I don't already have in my head. Waste of time. I can memorise it all right. But somehow it stays dead - a string of notes. If it grabs me enough for me to start humming away at the thing - in the car, in the park, having my hair done, whatever ... then I don't have to work too much to play it. (Well, apart from fingers turning into sausages and embouchure disappearing, that is.)
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
All this talk of dots being the bones of the tune reminds me of zombies, which leads me to suggest that there are at least two zombie discussions that haunt The Session--'performance' and 'dots!'
And like zombies, I would say that these two topics have been done to death, and then done again, and again, and again.....
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Am I alone here in thinking that dots are sometimes the best way to learn a tune?
Don't get me wrong, I don't mean always - certainly not for beginners, and not for learning the tunes your local session plays.
BUT, assuming you are a competent musician within your own tradition, there comes a time when you get bored of playing the same old tunes over and over, and need to look for something fresh.
Now suppose you are an Irish fiddler, and you hear Jerry Holland playing a Cape Breton tune you really like. What are you going to do? You could listen to the track over and over, play along, and get the tune down just like Jerry plays it - as a Cape Breton tune. OR, having decided it is a tune you want, you could deliberately not listen to it again, but search out the dots and learn it from them. Do it that way and you get the tune, but you get it in your own style, not his.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Putting the CD in the slot and pressing play. Then pause. Then play. etc" Isn't that nearer to - but still a long long way from - learning from a person phrase by phrase than listening to the tune until its in your head then playing from that ? I'm finding the play, pause (rewind ), play, pause is a more satisfying route.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Al Brown - I've seen enough zombie movies to know that they must have their head removed in order to stop them. However, as long as Irish music continues to captivate people all over the globe; to suddenly pick up a flute or a fiddle or a banjo at some middle-aged part of their lives and pursue this happy art, there will be discussions like this. I agree with Greg's (he of the tuned piano) notion that sessions need to be nurtured by the elders in regards to this matter. Miss Lonelyhearts gives us the most lucid and clear-headed opinion of this matter. The rest is just more classic yellow-board screaming and invective - which I of course enjoy immensely for some sort of prurient reasons I myself can't explain.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
More satisfying than what david? IMO there s absolutely no way in better than sitting with someone learning the tunes. When I started they would generally just show me the tune, the bones, then perhaps some variations, but really the variation is supposed to come from inside you once you really know the tune.
If you just copy another musicians variation, I did this as well, then that kind of defeats the point. In fact for me it meant I had to unlearn these variations before I could actually interpret the tunes in my own way.When I say 'unlearn' I mean I had to strip away these variations until I had the melody pure and simple, which then gave me the structure on which to build. When I tried to vary these bits before doing this there wasn't the solid melody which I could build upon, rather some fancy bits that gave no 'openings' they were like the cup that is full, they left no room for personal input and interpretation.
This is why we talk about deconstruction then reconstruction. Really simplifying, stripping it down to the bones and then building up again.
In fact if we go for the bones analogy look at it like this; underneath the skin muscle etc aren't our bone structures remarkably similar in ways? Although this structure is fundamental to our looks and size etc, maybe its the amount and positioning of muscle and fat that gives us our
characteristic shapes.
With the tunes its how we interpret them that gives them their distinctive character as played by us. The bones we play might be similar, or even identical perhaps but over years the tunes morph into creations that are distinctly personal, rhythmically, melodically , harmonically and 'ornamentally.' Were 2 people to learn the same tune note for note and then meet again 20yrs later would they still play them the same?! I doubt it.
This flexibility and adaptation is at the heart of the music IMO. Yes its important, when playing with others, to be able to listen respond and 'blend' But there are many who view trad as fundamentally a solo art. The session being a relatively modern phenomena that can simply lead to standardisation, generic 'euro trad', and a 'lowest common denominator' standard .
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Do you really think I hadn't noticed his grammer/spelling?!?? Come on, I wouldn't stoop so low as to mock someone's spelling. Anyhow I rely on spell check........"
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Jig's little essay, above, is a remarkable description of how selfish he is with the music. How little he respects it and how enamoured he is with his own abilities.
He starts with, "there's absolutely nothing better than sitting with someone learning the tunes". I'm glad he at least starts with something I agree with. But then we begin to diverge. When I sit with a musician I respect and they show me how they play a tune, and variations (same thing in my book, tune/variation, it's all tune, but we'll leave that for now) I do my utmost to sponge it all up. Learn the lot. respect the lot. Internalise it all. Not so with Jig. He casts it aside. Wants nothing but the odd string of disconnected notes. He has such an ego that he is convinced that his style and rhythm, his twiddley bits, his "personal input and interpretation" are what the music requires. So much so that he makes a deliberate effort to eschew the majority of what is being shown to him in order that he can painstakingly reconstruct it in his own image.
I'm not saying that one should not play with one's own personality, of course not. I'm not saying that you should only play clones of other people's work, of course not.
But the tradition survives as the splendid thing it is because the best exponents of it, the best players, humble themselves before it. They consider the input of others who have gone befor them to be immeasurably more important than themselves.
The best players use and build on everything that has gone before them. They disgard nothing.
So how do you build a bit of yourself into it? The answer is without effort. You simply will not be able to help yourself from doing so. Once you realise, after much study of course, that the music is structured largely by small - more often than not off the cuff - choices, you will begin to allow yourself the freedom to do this yourself. And hopefully, if you've been paying attention to the generous people who show you tunes, those little choices will end up reflecting the stock of the tradition. But if you try to make a concious effort to force this, not only will you make a pigs ear of it, you'll end up playing music that no one else would want to play with.
But at least we can find solice for the decent musicians of Clare. Jig views the music as fundamentally a solo art.
(though unfortunate that we can't extend that solace the thesession.org)
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
When a person claims to know "everything about it", that's usually the first sign you are dealing with fool.
As for sheet music to me that is all it is, A piece of paper... and kind of a fun way to visualize how some else "heard it". A really fun exercise for those who read dots, is to go ahead and start doing some transcribing of how you think a tune you learned by ear should look, its another angle with which one can study music in general.
Irish music isn't special in not fitting into classical notation. Reliance on sheet music is a sad tyranny, and takes music away from your core experience, it forces people to cognify something that is inherent to the species... instutionalises our spirit. Imagine if every time you made love you were reading off a piece of paper?
That said, I still like to read dots sometimes... as i mentioned before good for reading while sitting on the toilet.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
What? How does "stripping a tune to its bare bones" and putting in your own interpretation on it do you or the tune any good? Are you saying that you are so brilliant that you don't need to absorb anything from the people you learn the tunes from and your own "interpretation" will suffice? What?? Really?
Your own interpretation will come through anyway unless you have worked really really hard to play exactly like whoever. I'll direct that statement to skreech as well. If I learn a Cape Breton tune from Jerry Holland, it comes out sounding like me playing an uilleann piping tune (which is too bad).
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No Im saying thats how I was taught. and thats how musicians I respect look at it . Perhaps thats why typically the tunes are written with little ornamentation, not because it can't be put in, because it can of course , but because by doing so that defeats the object . Look at GHB music, notation here is near complete, although timing is still very approximate.
If you were to learn your tunes, note for note, with all the ornamentation, then where and how do you vary that in the traditional way? Where are the Highland pipers that do this for example? You could say this is because of a reliance on notation, perhaps it is, but if all the ornaments are prescribed in advance , how do you go about ornamenting in your own way?
Ive seen llig here go on about the roll at the begining of some tune, he learnt it with a rolll, this is ' how the tune goes', but its not. Hes just wrong, the tune does not have a roll at the beginning, that is an optional ornament. This is exactly the sort of fundamental mistake that he has made and propounds here. He learnt the tune with a roll, so he thinks that if you dont play the roll, you cant play the tune. Therefore an instrument like the banjo, cant play the tune, because it cant roll. Which of course is complete nonsense. This is why he has the foolish idea about concertinas, boxes banjos not being able to play the tunes right.. That he has propounded here over the years. Which of course is rubbish as demonstrated clearly by Jackie Daly, Chris Droney and everyone.
LLig seems to have these fixed Ideas of right settings of tunes and wrong settings, How anyone who has been playing this music for awhile could hold such ideas I dont know. Id agree there could be 'good settings' and 'bad settings, but thats subjective personal taste, though of course llig will come along and say its objective. This is another fundamental error that is shown up clearly when examined closely. ;
Llig plays the 'right' setting for the salamance. If you or I play a different setting, it is the 'wrong' setting according to him and we must have no taste or be tone deaf or stupid, according to llig. Ah, but Bobby Casey plays a different setting to llig, the wrong setting. So now we have llig , who wont even demonstrate his playing telling us that Bobby Casey, an acknowledged master, is playing it wrong. Not just Bobby Casey, Even Tommy Peoples plays it wrong according to llig. So did, Leo Rowesome, etc etc.
You ask how does stripping it down to the bones help.. Im glad you asked this question. It helps your rhythm. It will help you to sit in phase and not shift the ion beat to the off beat over the course of half a dozen bars. Too many pipers and fiddlers assume that because master players play with full ornamentation, that therfor thats what they should do, they attempt to reproduce the work of a lifetime from day one. Its an approach that is demonstrated over and over again by poor rhythm, crowded confused playing, external technique to the exclusion of spirit.
If you havent tried this approach, why not give it a go? one of the best up and coming pipers I have heard for a very long time does exactly this, its about subtle and delicate control of tone and pitch . Once this is accomplished, within the structure of the tunes, then slowly reconstruct , or vary/ornament.
Its not about technique, especially for pipers, though of course technique is essential, its about music. The technique is there to support the music, this is primary.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I really hope you're not having a go at me.
Yes, it's true that a lot of people have unstable rhythm and use more ornamentation than they can handle, but a lot of sorting that is learning to play slowly and steadily and make sure the timing of your rolls, crans and triplets etc. isn't out of rhythm. The whole idea of stripping a tune down to its "bones" is bizarre -- I mean, the tunes aren't even tunes without ornamentation, especially on the bloody pipe where you can't get to where you're going half the time without cuts, rolls, crans, etc as they are your only ways of articulating and emphasizing the rhythm.
I have learned tunes more or less note for note, with ornamentation. Funnily enough I don't have any trouble with variations (once I am familiar with the tune) and unfortunately I still don't sound like Mick O'Brien (or whoever I learned the tune from).
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No of course not. The tunes are still tunes without ornamentation. There are so many styles and players who use little in the way of ornamentation How can you say they are not playing the tunes?
The ornaments areone way we vary the tune. So tell me this, if you learn a roll in a specific place, how do you vary that? instead of the roll what do you do? lets take a specific example say the first few notes of http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1049
What are the options? a d roll, ded, dcd, d3, d(3ddd) slide up to the d3/d roll, dAd, .other pipe possibilities?
What is the simplest possible way of playing it?: d3.
All the other options stem from this fundamental note. this is the first half of the first bar deconstructed. All the other possibilities revolve around this one plain note.
What on earth is bizarre about that?
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Use little, maybe, but not drop it entirely. Ornamentation IS part of Irish music, although obviously the nature of it will vary from individual to individual. Saying that it's an optional extra is like saying you can ski perfectly well without learning to turn Sure, if you point your skis straight down the hill and just go, you will get to the bottom eventually. But is that really skiing? Or is it just falling down a hill? I think most people will say that a fundamental part of learning to ski is learning how to articulate your way through the snow. Learning tunes without ornamentation/articulation is just playing a series of notes.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Your other point, about playing slowly, yes that is important, but so is playing at the speed of the session. Its all well and good playing the tunes slow and steady, with all the ornaments in the right place, but try doing this at a fast session pace, not so easy at all. Lots of people just give up at this point, they cant play fast, It frustrates them. Thats because they dont practice playing fast. Why dont they practice playing fast? because they cant fit all the ornaments and stuff in that they have learnt and think 'should; be in there.
By stripping down to the fundamentals you always have a fall back position. This position also allows you to listen to how others are varying and playing the tune, if you are busy filling it up with fancy finger-work its not so easy to listen to others over the 'noise' you are making.
For example; In the tune I mentioned above, By playing the plain d3, you can hear clearly in relation to your d3 what the other player is doing.
Especially when the other player/s is that much better than you, having a super simplified almost chordal approach allows other to ''fly above'' what you do.
Listen to Mick O'Brian and Caoimhín O Raghallaigh playing together, focus on Caoimhín, see how his style complements Mick.
Its typical in some sessions for everyone to go hell for leather, playing as many notes as they can fit in! Its by reducing, being able to simplify down to the bones, that gives more space for the music, and thereby the players, more room to breath and express themselves.
If all you have is a highly ornamented style then you can end up playing alone, because there is no room for anyone else., unless you can find a class, sensitive, versatile musician like Caoimhín who realises that communal music making is about playing and working together, cooperating for the good of the music. Its not about ego and technique , about how good, or fast, or how flash you can play, its about playing together, really playing together.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
You can't really learn how to play at breakneck session speed until you can play at a moderate pace and not f*ck up the timing too badly. That's what I meant, aiming that sort of advice for people starting out on this journey.
In a way you are stating the blindingly obvious: I play less ornamented when I'm racing along at a 100mph session than when I'm playing at a more laid back pace. Duh. I don't have to "learn" a less ornamented version of a tune to do this. I just do it. And I'm not particularly brilliant, but even your sort of mediocre player who understands the music and can listen is capable of adapting and adjusting on the fly to their fellow musicians. That's one of the advantages to the advice guys like Miss Lonelyhearts, Michael, and Bogman have been repeating over and over again here -- it gives you the aural tools to adapt on the fly.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Well, going off in a somewhat new direction: I wonder if all of you commenting about "ornaments" have the same definition of ornaments in mind. If you don't that's when discussions about "highly ornamented" get confused.
It seems to me that it is clear that cuts, strikes, crans, grips, rolls and the like are ornaments. But, what about taking the first beat of a jig in G and playing G3 (maybe with a roll) or GFG or GBG or G2 G or any other such thing?? That really isn't, in my book an ornament but rather a melodic variation. Certainly that sort of thing is really important in good ITM, but when referred to as ornaments I think some folks, including me, get confused....
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
That's why I'd rather use the word "articulation" rather than "ornament," since playing a G roll or GFG are different methods of articulating a phrase of a tune.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Good on you, silver spear. That's precisely why "articulation" is a more descriptive, accurate term than "ornament."
"Ornament" is a hold over term from the old boys who didn't need more precise language because everyone who played this music back in the day was immersed in the culture of it. That's not true today. And we're wise to be more careful with our words.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Sorry to revert but just need to express my irritation that Ionnanas 'essay' started out with a question to me. If he had read my post and ethical blend's it would have been clear what two approaches to learning a tune we were talking about.
The irritation is that in most situations where people have a 'preference' for one approach over another the interest is in examining the reason. But Ionnanas has to turn it into "my method is better than your method".
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
So, from Silver Spear's comment, articulation can cover both rhythmic and melodic effects. Or doesn't the difference between GFG and GBG, and a maybe G roll, count as melodic variation ?
I'm not just being picky about words, because to my ear that, and, for example, what notes are chosen at the end of the final bar of a part before looping back, do have a melodic effect. And I read that in some forms of music a little twitch of dissonance before the main note is part of the style - is that 'gracing pitches' ?
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No David, it was not clear and I did read your posts.
Variation is variation, yes, there are separate terms for ornaments and various articulations. but they are all ways to vary the tune. Grace notes are both articulation and ornament, depending on the instrument and how they are played.
I dont consider melodic variation to be articulation, articulation is how you say a phrase, where you stress is and in what way What you are articulating is the melody, the tune and its variations. Ornaments like cuts and taps are considered to be articulations because they can serve a function to separate two notes and delineate a phrase, also to clarify the rhythm as they can have a percussive effect..
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Never mind David, you could never listen to another tune, never learn anything but from dots ignore all that has gone before and still be ten times the player you would be if you paid heed to the nonsensical ramblings of that raving lunatic.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
'This taught me the benefits of the metronome which I then used to tighten up my bass playing. I enjoy playing fiddle tunes to a metronome because I can relax and know that I can rely on its solidity . If you cant play with a metronome then you cant keep a steady beat. Which means that it will be very hard for anyone to dance to your playing'
The above is taken from the pfofile of Ionannas/tradpiper/jig etc.
I urge anyone new to this forum to listen to the performance of the 'Rights of Man' in that profile.
You can then decide if any advice from that quarter re fiddle playing is worth heeding.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Sorry Llig to keep quoting verbatim, but there's some serious nuggets in there:
"...So how do you build a bit of yourself into it? The answer is without effort. You simply will not be able to help yourself from doing so...But if you try to make a concious effort to force this, not only will you make a pigs ear of it, you'll end up playing music that no one else would want to play with..."
If you love something, set it free. Stop trying to smother it. Let it be itself and love it for what it is. It will come to you if you keep approaching it properly.
(My new pop psychology book will be out next month. There's a rumor I might get to go on Oprah.)
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Nice quote from Llig there and that is essentially one of the points I was making earlier. You don't need to expend conscious effort into *not* playing like so-and-so. Just play and your own style will just come through effortlessly.
David,
Yes. It's all melodic variation. I see that as the end result; it's what articulation leads to. Whatever thing you do to get from one note to the next, be it a roll, a triplet, or even holding a note, is articulation. If you change how you do that as you play the tune, you get melodic variation since the melody doesn't sound exactly the same when you play a G roll, for instance, as it does when you play a GFG triplet. The phrasing, the emphasis, will change slightly. Simple. Ionnannas' theory that there are ornaments, melodic variations, articulations, and somehow all these are separate things that can be got rid of and tunes reduced to some skeleton is needlessly complicated and misleading. Articulations, or ornaments if you really want to call it that, are parts of the tunes.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Well said, Biggus Dave !
Any newby tempted to take the advice of such an experienced musician, stallion-tamer, stick-fighter and rider with the wraggle taggle gipsies should listen to his online musical offerings. Such temptation will be soon dispelled.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Thanks SS. I have this hunch that someone could come along and say that so far as the basic melody is concerned those are all standing for a G (probably G3) and so the melody had not varied. The message seems to be that they are rythmically distinct because they are melodically different (same a playing the roll backwards would be).
But I did get the point, and understood what you meant by 'ornamented', in your first post.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
David, you've got it: this music is all about the interweaving of melody and timing--"making a melody dance"--and so any variation to one (e.g., melody) affects the other (timing) and vice versa.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
And then it all comes together, it stops being a collection of notes and rhythm and articulations and ornaments, it just is the tune, difficult to pin down, and words or dots on a page fail you when you try to explain it, then you have it!
Re: The Proper Handling of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic?
Finally sitting down and giving U-Tube a slew of my time, as I read and listen with headphones, I looked up and noticed that on dear Brother Ryan Dunns videos, teaching the whistle and playing tunes, he's sometimes, obviously, reading music too.
Ryan Dunn, whistle ~ between his beginning and intermediate series ~
The Blackthorn Stick / The Frost is All Over / Donnybrook Fair
~ one example of where he's reading off the sheetmusic... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5uMGSBWWXU
That reminded me of my own situation at times. Sometimes when teaching, in order to keep me centered and on the straight and narrow ~ avoding being too confusing with variations and different takes ~ I will check back with the version I'm trying to teach for the moment, to get that basic across, unhampered by variation, to give a decent and steady start to those I'm teaching, before slipping into teaching 'other ways' with it.
While I don't use notation when teaching, in general, I do provide it, to take home, as a reminder of the basic bones of the melody, and some variations and points on ornamentation, as well as also providing recordings of the tunes taught...
I'm particularly fond of the portability of ABC notation and it has served me well when writing down a couple of bars of a tune picked up at a session or from another ~ just enough of a hook for me to revived it again when I get home.
Handled properly notation is a great tool to have at hand. It isn't the notation that is generally at fault, it is the inexperience or other problems with the person who uses or abuses it, or suffers its barbituate addiction and potentially numbing influence. It doesn't pretend to be anything than what it is, a skeleton, an aid memoir, just a guide, not the answer, not the thing complete. If you have enough experience and understanding behind you, and I've seen this often in practice and execution, then you can pull a skeleton off the sheet and like Doctor Frankenstein cloth it in muscle and the rest of what a body requires, and animate it with that understanding, like a bolt of lightning to Frankenstein's Monster, only in this case, if you've got your chemistry and physics right, something not monsterous, something with spirit.
It is only inexperience that creates something akin to a zombie of a tune from connecting the dots ~ the living dead lumbering clumsily onward and incomplete, not quite the spark of life, not tradition as we love it, lacking that understanding and experience required for it to be fully breathing and inspired...
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
A hearty AMEN to ceolachan's statement above. For me that nails most of the whole issue.
As to the "what term to use" issue: For me
1) "graces" covers cuts, strikes, crans etc. They are primarily articulative and, of course, totally different from the classical graces.
2) "Articulation" covers stress, phrasing, breath points (used by fiddles too!) often gracing, and other things that shape a given set of notes but don't alter the set of notes.
3) "variation" covers the issue of substituting one set of notes for another but sometimes includes some of the things that happen when gracing (like a long roll on G replacing a G3).
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I remember when someone linked a video of llig's session to a discussion here, and from what I heard, all the fiddlers in the video were pretty darn good--nothing to prove there.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
As usual, I believe Ceolachan has hit the nail on the head. Sheet music is best used as a memory aid. But it an do more harm than good if the primary learning tool, the ears, have not been fed enough info. What is the point in a good memory if you don't know what to remember? If you listen to a tune played 200 times by 50 different people over time you will have picked up a fairly good idea of the tune. Without that experience, when you look at sheetmusic there is only one way to see it - as the bare bones.
Random, with regard to your questions above, in this discussion forum you don't really need your ears, sometimes reading with your eyes tells you all you need to know. I don't need to hear the likes of Llig, Miss L or Ceol to respect their words and I don't need to hear that a certain other can't play to dismiss their ramblings.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
The point is random; its easy to sit in a session and , much much easier than playing solo. If you want to compare something, how do you compare chalk with cheese?
Anyone can sound good in a band,so many issues are taken care of. The rhythm player keeps the rhythm. The chord player lays a nice rhythmic underlay, the box , banjo pipes etc create solid intonation. Its simply a different thing.
Also sitting in a session creates a secondary entity; the group. You cant judge a player on the band and you cant judge a band on one player.
Also recording can be off-putting as anyone who has done it knows Especially recording 'cold'.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Anyone can sound good in a band"
Absolute rubbish. A band is only as good as the sum of it's parts. Where was the weak link in the Bothy Band? Planxity? or today with Danu, Flook, Lunasa? (taste is a different thing) Do you think any of the players in these bands relay on a 'rhythm player' to keep the rhythm or another player to create solid intonation?
"You cant judge a player on the band and you cant judge a band on one player." - yes, I agree with you - yipee.
Though there is a small amount of truth in recording being off-putting to some it's usually down to a lack of confidence as a result of the truth being revealed. The recorder doesn't lie. You can hide but you can't polish a turd.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Anyone can sound good in a band? What planet are you on?
I hate recording myself for the reasons Bogman says, although I do it occasionally. By the way you can be sure no recording of me is coming within 10 miles of the internet.
I think two points always come up in these ears v. dots rows. People end up thinking that the "anti sheet music crowd" is saying you should never look at dots, ever, when the main argument actually being made is that you shouldn't use them as your primary learning tool and you especially shouldn't use them as your primary learning tool when you are a beginner and haven't yet developed a feel for the music.
I wouldn't agree with cboody's three definitions for the reason that it is *all* articulative. Cuts, taps, crans, rolls, triplets substituting one note for another, they are all integral in how you give life to the melody and make the tune sound like a tune. As soon as you start categorizing things you lose the holistic approach to playing tunes.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Re sheet music as a memory aid - yeah, every now and again I'll forget how some bit of a tune goes, and I can fill in the missing part in more than one way that makes some amount of sense musically, but I don't know which version (if any) is the standard one. In those cases, I'll consult the dots in order to find out...well, not necessarily the *right* way to play the missing bits, but the way that at least someone played it.
But the other day this failed. I was revisiting a reel that I learned one way, and that I've heard played differently. The different (and incompatible) versions I'd heard were overlapping in my mind in such a way that I wasn't able to play any of them. I had a feeling that something was off rhythmically from my playing - was I missing half a bar somewhere? inserting a few notes illegally, so to speak? emphasizing the wrong part? - but I couldn't put my finger on it. The only sheet music I found for this tune didn't solve my problem - it was quite different from anything I'd heard or played, but more importantly, although the notes in each bar of the transcription added up, I was unable to internalize the rhythm to the point that I could play the tune fluidly. All the sheet music did was gave me a set of notes to play in a given order, which wasn't what I'd set out to do. I decided I'd try to transcribe my incomplete version when I had a few moments and a pen and paper handy, and see if I could figure what was wrong my transcription, but I never got around to it.
Frustrated, I set this aside, and some days later, while walking home, I was remembering something llig had said in a recent thread about playing in time - he suggested playing while walking around, as walking has a natural rhythm to it. While walking, I hummed the reel that had been torturing me for weeks. It came out effortlessly, to the point that I was wondering what it was that had given me so much trouble in the first place. When I got home, I picked up the fiddle, and the tune emerged there as well. Perhaps sheet music would have been an adequate memory aid, but it wasn't my memory that was the problem...or if it was, it wasn't something in the transcription I'd forgotten.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Zombie tunes"? Would one of them be named "Shaun's Jig" or maybe "Shaun's Reel"? And would they be played in a re-animated style and in the key of dead flat?
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
This is not by design ~ it just happens. In session there are certain tunes which I cannot play well *if* I think about them too hard. A number of times someone will start a tune & I will join in, even though I cannot place a name with the tune. Afterwards I may ask the name. It is not that unusual for the tune to turn out to be I would have stumbled on (tricky bits) had I known the name.
Hope this makes sense. The way my brain ~ works sometimes less information is better for playing tunes.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ionannas: "If you just copy another musicians variation, I did this as well, then that kind of defeats the point"
Really? I agree that copying someone else's rendition of a tune, note-for-note, ornament-for-ornament, inflection-for-inflection, should not be an ultimate goal. But, as an intermediate stage in the learning process, it seems to me to be perfectly valid - I call it 'learning by example'. Personally, I have never had enough discipline, a good enough ear, technique or memory to replicate exactly anyone else's playing of a tune. But I have had a fair stab at it, and the result is my own 'interpretation' of the tune, based on X's rendition, perhaps also Y's, and coloured by my own shortcomings. I know I've still got a long way to go - I've been at this music for about 14 years in all, 6 or 7 of those pretty single-mindedly - but plagiarism seems to be an effective way to form a style of your own.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Have a listen to Kevin Burke's playing of Rolling in the Barrell and In the Tap Room. Then go listen to Bobby Casey's playing of the same set. You can immediately hear Mr. Casey's playing in Kevin's own.
Erm, that's precisely what makes it "traditional" music and not indie, improv, or something else.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I've noticed that the tunes I learn by ear (e.g. most of Arty McGlynn's disc, and Kitty Lie Over) stick in my memory the best. Perhaps cutting out one step in the process makes the mind focus best on the music itself.
However, I use dots, because hearing a tune played 3x at a session (and then not hearing it again for a month or two) is not enough to learn it. Also I find it tough to learn everything by ear, because at high speed the inflections etc are hard to pick out.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Also I find it tough to learn everything by ear, because at high speed the inflections etc are hard to pick out."
Not really. It's not about how fast the music goes by, but how experienced a listener *to this music* you are. The more hours you spend listening--really listening--the easier it gets. And that's a crucial skill for sessioning, so you might as well start gaining it now, eh?
Not meaning to sound preachy--just the voice of experience. Stick with the ear--it'll feel easier sooner than you expect, and continue to pay off over the long haul.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
It's also a very easy thing to ask someone to play something slowly for you (most players are happy to help someone who wants to learn). If you carry a recorder with you when you go to sessions, you'll be able to bring it home with you and listen to it as many times as you like.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Been reading my way through an '02 thread & doing the old cut & paste on another thread . . . still learning & lovin'
"Oh ..
And about this spurious 500 tunes thing.
I know an old bloke I play with occasionally who only knows about 20 tunes. But he's brilliant
I'm not saying you only need 20, but for him, 20 is enough.
Try not learning any new tunes until your board with ALL the tunes you know.
That should slow your quest down abit"
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
To reinforce Miss Lonelyhearts point about really listening... It's so easy to listen to music but let it wash over you without taking it in. I'm assuming others get this, but if you're reading a book while something else is on your mind you can get that thing where you've read a couple of pages but realize you haven't taken anything in. So you go back and re-read because you've probably missed something important. It's very easy to listen to music without really hearing it. I couldn't agree more strongly about the importance of - really - listening.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
<<plagiarism seems to be an effective way to form a style of your own.>> Really? then why are there so many tedious clones about? Who comes to your mind today when you think of outstanding fiddlers? Where is the Johnny Doherty? the John Vesey? Dennis Murphy? Bobby Casey, Paddy Caney? There is literally no one even approaching these guys. Why? We can come out with some names that are great ok in their own right, but compared to these guys they still fall far far behind . Why is that?
If you think these guys 'copied' someone else's style, then who and how? there were no or little in the way of recordings so the only option would be to sit in with one or more role model, It was simply impossible to copy another's style in the way we can now. and IMO so much of the music around to day displays this lack of individuality.
There are a few fiddlers today who do stand out , who did thy copy? Martin for example? who did he copy? OK he was influenced strongly by the formative people around him, but he found his own way. Kevin, Paddy, Tommy, Frankie, Liz yes there are some pretty good/Amazing fiddlers, and plenty out and about. But if you put them next to the greats, they would be the first to agree that there is no real comparison. Or do you think there are?
smoke a fat doobie. I get it but, you are probably not the people you name. If you have something original ~ grand. Not sure why anyone should care, besides your immediate family. cheers!
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Well it seems obvious enough that Bobby Casey started off with much of his tunes and his style from his father, Scully. He often said so to anyone who asked.
And when Coleman's records came out, nearly everyone copied him. This and more is all well-documented history.
I used to listen in on John Vesey's house sessions in Philadelphia in the late 1970s. He encouraged everyone to listen to Coleman, Killoran, and Morrison, as Vesey himself did.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Besides, all of today's wonderful fiddlers readily give credit to their mentors and the players who passed the music down.
If you want individuality well rooted within the tradition, I'd recommend listening to Oisin MacDarmada, Maire Breathnach, Siobhan Peoples, John Egan, Brendan Bulger, Brid Harper, and a host of others.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Nice clip Random, Irish legends playing Scottish tunes. Not afraid to copy others. Not afraid it would turn them into 'clones'. Coleman said he was greatly influenced by Scott Skinner. The style of great players comes from respecting and utilizing their favourite bits of a lifetimes worth of influences.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I LOVE Maire Breathnach. I wish I knew where to find more recordings of her playing traditional stuff (nothing wrong with her original music, but I'm looking for source material for my own playing...)...so if anyone knows where to find any recordings of her, please let me know!
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I was amazed at the assertion by jig that anyone can play well in a band. Such an ego ! A good reason not to play in a band with such a person.
I would have no hesitation in playing in a band with SS , who I know plays well and thinks at length about how and what she plays. She is also far too modest about her own playing skills.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Whats amazing about that? you think its easier to sit alone and record than it is to play with others and record? really! care to demonstrate.? !As a guitarist its definitely easier with a backer. As a fiddler it is too, same with mandolin and banjo. Much easier to share the load between a group than to stand alone. You think its harder to play in/ record with, a band? or are you taking my words out of context?
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
in context yes;
>>its easy to sit in a session and , much much easier than playing solo. If you want to compare something, how do you compare chalk with cheese?
Anyone can sound good in a band,so many issues are taken care of. The rhythm player keeps the rhythm. The chord player lays a nice rhythmic underlay, the box , banjo pipes etc create solid intonation. Its simply a different thing.
Also sitting in a session creates a secondary entity; the group. You cant judge a player on the band and you cant judge a band on one player.
Also recording can be off-putting as anyone who has done it knows Especially recording 'cold'. <<
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Yeah, poor old Kevin Burke (Kevin to you of course) He has to pack it all in 'cause Donal Lunny's making play a big five part reel on his tod. He's apoplexic with fear, waiting for his mates to join in. "Jesus" he says, "I could do with a metronome".
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Anyone can sound good in a band" - but only if they're of at least the same level of experience and competence as the other members of the band. This essential point appears to have been overlooked. The same principle applies to any ensemble.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Not always the case Lazy, one brilliant musician in a band with three ok musos can lift the whole sound far above what the three could do on their own surely.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Have you never played with a better player who draws music out of you that was better than you could have imagined? Just by sitting in with some guys, everyone plays better. No musician simply has one level, they have good days, bad days, they play with dodgy musicians who make everyone sound bad and great musicians who make everyone sound better. or dont you agree?
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Sorry but I think you miss the point of playing together in a band or any band I would wish to play in jig. It's about playing together being better than as indeviduals It's about being collective and performance . It's not the same as playing in a session.
I know a few indeviduals who are good solo players but lack the skills needed to play in a band.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
anyhow bogman,. of course Im talking about people who can play. If I weren't then yes you'd be right; not everyone can play well in a band, people who cant play, for example will have a hard time playing well in a band!
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Fair enough dave, but that doesnt mean their skills are lacking, but perhaps the other players simply cant accommodate them?
A session is a group of people playing together.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I dont really see that much difference between a band; a group of people playing together and a session, a group of people playing together. Yes of course there are superficial differences, such as arrangements, etc but fundamentally they are the same thing. IMO
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Leaving bands aside I find I play better as an accompanist in sessions with better musicians than I do with less good musicians, or at least I think I do. Perhaps this is what Ionannas means. Essentially though this is just because they make the job so easy.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Yes of course there are superficial differences [between a band and a session], such as arrangements, etc but fundamentally they are the same thing."
I am sorry but no! Arrangements are not superficial things. Working out the balance of the instruments is not superficial. There is a lot more to do in arranging sets for a band than there is just turning up to a session and playing some tunes. This is just one of the many reasons why a session is not a performance.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ionannas, Haven't you realized that you have made your point more than enough times? You are not going to change anyone's mind by saying the same thing over and over. The fact that they do not agree with you does not mean that they are stupid, or haven't heard what you are saying, they just don't agree with you. Let it go...
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
But fundamentally they are both groups of people playing music together, as opposed to playing solo. some with more or less arrangements etc. compare zappa, or Jethro tull who arranged everything with say the Jimi Hendrix experience.
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I would guess:
"Leaving bands aside I find I play better as an accompanist in sessions with better musicians than I do with less good musicians, or at least I think I do. Perhaps this is what Ionannas means. Essentially though this is just because they make the job so easy."
The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Here's the seed, but we've been here many times before, and I expect other links to the past will be made in the process ~
Discussion: hard to read some sheet music
# Posted on October 21st 2009 by baylady
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22919
Yes, it's about sheetmusic, notation, its uses and abuses, whether or not it is useful, benign, debilitating, useless, damaging, addictive, toxic? Hey, and any tales of woe and elation would be most welcome too, please...
& to start ~
While feeling my rust, I've been taking in the occassional session, generally listening more than participating, and enjoying it. And sometimes getting a good laugh too, though I will try to keep it hidden if it is at someone else's expense, not uncommon in a session, at least from my point of view and sense of humour. At one session I've found myself having great difficulty holding back the involuntary chuckle.
There's this sweet rolly-polly guy who comes along with his several instruments and possibly his complete library of tune books and notes. In short order he has books open on the floor around his chair, and on the near table, even on a nearby chair if there's one free. He rifles through them and sometimes calls out what he's planning found that he's planning to play, from the sheet. The most recent hoot I couldn't suppress, except to cover my face and pretend I was holding back a cough, was when he asked one musician who had just risen to go for a p*ss, with book and instrument in hand ~ "What tune are you going to play next? I need to see if I've got it here somewhere!" 'Somewhere' was at least a dozen books. I guess hauling those around with his instruments might count as good exercise?
In another situation, at some point he suggested playing polkas, pulling out and opening up his copy of "Mally Presents 100 Irish Polkas". I so wanted to start a set of polkas that I knew weren't in the book, but resisted...
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
we had a guy come and play with my jazz band last spring. He was a friend of my bass player, so we gave him alot of latitude.
But while we were standing there waiting for him to sift through all his paper for something he could play, I finally had had about enough and said "you better find something soon, or I'm calling 'Giant Steps' "
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
...must...maintain...good...karma....but...
...hate...Fiddler's....Fake...Book....
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Batlady
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I was recently at an event, (in Ireland) where some German musicians, very nice people but clearly not much idea what is normal in an Irish session, turned up with their folder of music, and even a music stand. They played a couple of numbers from the dots, then someone else started singing Spancil Hill. I had to suppress a laugh as the German musicians began frantically rumaging through their folder, clearly they knew they had Spancil Hill in there somewhere!
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by cathycook
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No matter how many times this subject comes up, I still find it interesting. Besides, many newcomers have joined us since the last go-around.
I usually keep out of dots discussions because I am relatively new here, and since I come from outside the tradition I don't feel sufficiently "vested" to be able to add much to these discussions. I will probably never play ITM as completely as I play classical music, but enjoy it just the same.
Newcomers from outside the tradition naturally expect written notation to be a part of their learning; I did. Very few musical traditions are completely aural, and this is the message we must bring to those who join us at our sessions. A gentle remark as someone totes a looseleaf binder through the door will go a long way.
Our slow session takes place before the regular session, and at the slow session you will see books, binders, notes, recording devices, sometimes even music stands, but never at the regular session.
It's not the notation that's the problem; it's the use and role of that notation. That needs to be made clear to newcomers (even oldcomers.)
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ceolachan, I think you should have gone ahead and started that set of polkas which you knew isn't in "Mally Presents 100 Irish Polkas" just to have some fun and mess with the man's mind.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Batlady, at our local sessions, there are several tunes which we learned out of the Fiddler's Fake Book. We memorized them so we never have to bring the book or any sheet music to the sessions.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I'm overwhelmed by the thought of mining the mustard for this. I loaded this search, clicked through a few, and was quickly dazzled by the choices!
So, here's the search link at least:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/index/search?name=dots
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Im pretty sure I have never see dots in a session, guess I dont hang out in the right sessions
The very idea is completely Alien, Its like making love and referring to a textbook while yer at it,! '' hang on a moment love , just want to find the right page! ''LOL
Or driving a car with the manual on the dash board! though not so dangerous of course!
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
You could bring along a supply of disposable butane lighters, and when your man launches into a dot-fueled set of tunes, hand them around, light up and hold them high, and sway together in time...
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jumper
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I've just, finally, had the care sorted, a problem with a split line making it sound like a popcorn machine, and dying to a stop after a few coghs worth of idle. Thanks for the laughs, my spirits have been rising with every contribution so far...
Next time fauxcelt...
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ceolachan
~ the 'car' sorted ~
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I learn from dots.
I never bring dots to sessions.
I rarely call out the tunes I am going to play. Most times I don't even know what will be the next tune until the last b part. When dot readers find that irksome, I emphasize that that is the reason why memorizing is so important.
Books on the floor, chairs, tables or music stands are near intolerable.
On the other hand, we have a genius that can play tunes from sheet music the first time he has seen the tune better than some who have played the tune for years. Many times after everyone has left, he and I have gone thru this tune book page by page and I had the chance to play tunes that I never otherwise do since no one else knows them.
In conclusion, bringing sheet music to sessions, though sometimes reluctantly tolerated, should never be welcomed, certainly not encouraged.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by feardearg
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Good dots:
http://www.dotscupcakes.com/
Really weird dots:
http://www.typetive.com/candyblog/item/halloween_dots_bat_candy_corn_ghost/
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Batlady
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
fauxcelt-I did that, too. And you know, those people that I play music with don't play the tunes correctly!!!
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Batlady
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I thought you were discussing the dots that are on paper?
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/3709777/2/istockphoto_3709777-candy-dots-background.jpg
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I like it ~ the potential for edible music...
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Okay, I get it, no dots, learn by ear, moving on.
Seriously, though, I have learned some of the few tunes I know so far with the help of the dots, then once I have the notes and it is in the ballpark of what I know the tune to sound like, I throw the dots away. I can say from that experience that I think a big motivation for those who are entering the session world for the first time learn some tunes from sheet music because they don't want to show up at their first session empty-handed, so to speak, and because they are used to learning music that way. That I understand, but to show up with piles of sheet music and actually pulling it out in-session certainly seems odd even to this novice.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Sure Jimmy, sounds like you got it. Ever hear the dots as bones theory?
It's not a body, it's just bones. It's up to your ears, brain and hands to add the rest.
...which is why it sounds SO off to hear those skeletal forms of tunes people have solely from dots without any flesh on them.
"Psst, hey, who's the skeleton over there?"
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
In my book, contrary to what has been said above:
Memorising the tune is of no importance - or even help - at all. Knowing the tune is what matters.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Skeleton: memorizing the tune
Body: knowing the tune
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Don't agree. Knowing the tune is knowing the tune.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I can't be arsed
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Some random thoughts on the well beat mule of this debate:
You might be able to learn a tune from sheet music, but you can't learn this music from sheet music.
And yet, have pity on the great unwashed masses, far away from the cultural heartbeat of Irish music, learned note by note at the knee of a great uncle by a crackling hearth fire. Many out in the vast diaspora and far flung continents don't have that opportunity and so, reach for the next best thing - a book of Irish tunes. As Greg (the piano tuner) notes, a simple nudge in the right direction is all most newbies need to get them to embrace the beauty of aural tradition and cast away the crutches of dots.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Sometimes you just have to do without the dots.
Look at the panic on the face of this classicaly trained bodhran player.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arqvnp6yUCg
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Free Reed
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Which book is that then? how do you define 'knowing'
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
It's just I don't think it does any (much?) good to actively "memorise" the tune. I like the word "internalise" that some others have used. Basically, you just have to know it, the way that you know the tune to Happy Birthday or Twinkle Twinkle.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ethical blend
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Actually I've never figured out happy birthday, its one of those tune I know I should work out but I've just never got around to it. But anyhow, how do you differentiate between memorising a tune and somehow internalising it? what do you do thats different? How do you define 'know'? What is the difference between 'knowing' through memorising, and 'knowing' through internalisation?
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Dots
Some tree died for those sins.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by zippydw
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Oh. And this one drew Ilig out.
I haven't read anything from him lately.
From the tone all appears well!
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by zippydw
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ethical blend, forgive me for jumping in here, but I would surmise that memorizing a tune is just the simple input and output of the basic phrases - which of course is fine and dandy for most of us. However, I'm guessing your take of "internalizing a tune" means to be able take the phrases and expand on the ideas, interpret and extrapolate, milk it for all it's worth. Like a Tommy People's type of thing. I'm I close or did I miss your point?
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"You might be able to learn a tune from sheet music, but you can't learn this music from sheet music."
On the face of it this seems pretty straight forward. However:
THE MUSIC IS THE TUNES
I like to play with cracklingly good players. There is tons of variation it their music, tons of inventiveness, new stuff every time. It's the music. If I want to play their tunes with them the worst thing I could do would be to go to some silly written 2% extrapolation and memorise that. The only way to do it is just to listen and internalise the sounds. Any attempted short cut can be nothing more than a distraction.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Spoken like a seasoned, long time player, with a thousand tunes in his head Llig. You have, however, perhaps forgotten what it felt like to be a beginner. "Internalisation" is a wonderful lofty goal to aspire to - however, some of us are just trying to make a nice pass at a tune three times through without fecking it up. Yes the music is the tunes - no arguing that. However, I know a talented, classically trained violin player who learned a few tunes off the dots. Does, she know the tunes? Sure - I guess. Does she understand what it takes to play Irish music? No. Far from it. That's my point.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Batlady: "I did that, too. And you know, those people that I play music with don't play the tunes correctly!!!"
How do you know they don't play them correctly? WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE WHAT IS CORRECT AND WHAT ISN'T!?!?!?!?!
Only Llig leahcim has the authority to decide that!
(go easy on me; I'm new at this "wind-up" bizness...
)
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by browndog
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
You can't split the difference. Your mate didn't learn a few tunes of the dots, she learned some silly written 2% extrapolation of a few tunes off the dots. She doesn't know those tunes. She doesn't understand what it takes to play the music. You can't split the difference.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Aren't 'dots' for connecting?
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Imnotirish
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Browndog:
Me!! Because I have...the Book.
(Hums a few bars of "What a day, what a day/for the auto da fe!)
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Batlady
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Interesting take Llig. The written music component only constitutes 2% of the potential of a tune. The other 98% is interpretation, expression, talent, experience and internalisation? I know you like to paint in sweeping generalisations, but this idea certainly reduces sheet music to the most rudimentary DNA imaginable.
My Gawd - I sure have a long way to go. I figure my take on something like the Flogging Reel is about 8% based on the Llig formula. Tragic...
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
If that is the case llig then why do folk like Matt Crannitch, Leo Rowesome write the tunes down for people to learn from? You think you are right and they were wrong to do this? You really think that it was best off that Bunker hill for example, was lost to us all?
How do you reconcile your view point when taking into account the fact that this tune in particular was resurected from the dots, if you play it , then you learnt it from someone, who learnt it from someone who learnt it from the dots. How many more of your tunes came to you via notation at some stage of transmission?
What about people who are learners but dont have access to a session?
What about people who wish to play Irish tunes in an old time style and have no interest in your rigid concepts of right and wrong?
How do you reconcile this position with your assertion the other day that you play the correct setting of the Salamanca and Bobby Casey and co play an incorrect setting? When we learn his setting , by ear , from Bobby Casey, we are still playing it wrong according to you.
No I dont expect you to answer these question to be honest they might require you to examine your own position and I dont somehow see you as being willing or able to actually question yourself and your dogmatic contentions. However, feel free to prove me wrong here.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
argh feck off
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
This is Folk Music innit ? Music for the People ?? ..
People should be able to do what they bloody-well want....learn the Music from dots ..learn the Music by ear...
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by zoukboy
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Matt Cranitch = Can't Manage! If you can't manage you need sh*t music!
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Cathal Buí Mac Giolla Ghunna
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ionannas ~ mate, if you really want to take on Gill (not musically of course, he is probably better than you) but if you want to challenge his online barbs here is a widely known secret:
He sucks at grammar & math.
You're welcome ;)
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Some people can hear the music from the dots. They know the idiom of that genre so well, and they're so "in tune" with the sounds that the dots represent, that they simply *hear* the music off the page.
This isn't some abstract theory--it's how I hear the dots based on 43 years of familiarity with them. And I know other experienced musicians who "sight hear" as well.
Sight hearing comes in very handy when you play orchestral music, where you're expected to play the piece pretty much "as written" and the score includes details such as tempo, dynamics, phrasing, bowing, etc. that the composer or arranger expects the players to heed.
Sight hearing is also useful in genres that emphasize improvising, like jazz and rock, where you can use a fake book to suss out the bones of a piece and then launch into your own chord or scale based interpretation.
But sight hearing (and hence music notation) is only marginally useful, at best, in this strongly aural tradition where playing in near-unison is the norm (vs. polyphonic genres), and the music itself is more than a skeletal melody.
In contrast to following the guidelines on a page, for us session players, it's far more important to be able to instantly feel and blend with the tempo, rhythm, timing, key and mode choices, and other features of a tune *on the fly,* as these details are being generated live and in real time by the person who started the tune and as the set moves from one tune to the next (each tune with its own personality and feel).
In short, being able to near-instantly ***play what you hear*** is a crucial skill for fully participating in a well-oiled Irish session. And reading sheet music--even "sight hearing" with some adroitness--doesn't really help us immediately play what we hear in such a fluid, fast-paced situation as a typical session.
Rather than postpone learning to play what you hear by looking to the dots for help, it makes more sense to me to learn by ear from another player, and failing that, to learn to listen better, more closely, to recordings until you can suss out exactly what's being played in all its fullness.
Of course, if you don't aspire to playing in a typical session, then you may find the dots helpful. But be wary of thinking that they will prepare you well for sessions.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
JNE - that's not really what I meant ... I've heard great players in sessions (not well-known players, just great players) playing a tune over and over, and never the same twice. They swear that they ARE playing the tune exactly the same every time. But they're not.
What's happening there is that the tune is just pouring out of them. They have the tune. But you can bet anything they never actively memorised it.
This is different from saying anything about dots, which seem to me to be just ANOTHER obstacle between a player and the tune.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"In short, being able to near-instantly ***play what you hear*** is a crucial skill for fully participating in a well-oiled Irish session." (Miss L) That ought to be the killer argument.
Not just a well-oiled session. Where I'm at its needed so as not to get glares from other beginners using the dots. Can't do it though - I have to peek at their dots. Is this progress ?
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by david_h
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ethical Blend, how do you actively memorise something? what is the process? I simply listen to, and/or play, the music till I remember the tune. How do you do it?
What is different between me memorising a tune and you internalising?which off course is IMO the same thing.
What makes you think they are any different?
Maybe you simply mistake their meaning when they say they play the tune the same each time ? Perhaps they define tune as melody or framework; the bones, They vary it, but its still the same tune.
What makes you so sure they never memorised the tune?
Well said miss lonelyhearts!
Random, I have no interest in 'taking on' llig, I just question the stuff he posts here If it is based in truth , reality, experience, and not egotistic bull, then why would he not engage and answer the questions?
As far as better? really ? well he doesnt even have the nerve to upload his solo playing so I can only judge from the nonsense he spouts here, which firmly indicates he knows a lot less than he thinks, A typical example being he plays the right setting and Bobby Casey/ Tommy Peoples plays it wrong. Now that really does show how little he knows of the Music. Sorry I cant get over that one, what a stuck up and ridiculous assertion If I ever heard one. Why doesnt he actually demonstrate his music?
Anyhow how can you compare chalk and cheese Random?
Do you really think I hadn't noticed his grammer/spelling?!?? Come on, I wouldn't stoop so low as to mock someone's spelling. Anyhow I rely on spell check so I would be the pot calling the kettle black in this case. No I have not even the slightest interest in petty point scoring, simply the truth.
Great new book through the post today! Tunes of the Munster Pipers compiled by James Goodman in the early 1800.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Let's help the dot-bound, not mock them. With so many sessions drying up, we need good players who play this music correctly.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Llig quote>
"There is tons of variation it their music, tons of inventiveness, new stuff every time. It's the music. If I want to play their tunes with them the worst thing I could do would be to go to some silly written 2% extrapolation and memorise that."
Bones? Body? Do you really even need to know what the bones look like to know there's a skeleton in that body? Too busy looking at the body. Ha ha. I couldn't give my nonsense a rest.
...but seriously. In learning new tunes I can't imagine the tune without hearing first, even from the dots. I can guess.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
What's the difference between actively memorising and actually having the tune? I've known masses of these tunes all my life. Now, trying to PLAY them on the wretched instrument is frustrating. But ... at least I have the tunes. So, the notes aren't a problem.
Still, every now and then I hear a tune I don't know that grabs me. Maybe it's on a CD. Maybe I hear it played on a few different occasions at various sessions. I find myself humming the thing. Before you know it, there it is, going through my head all the time. Until it's replaced by another.
Learning this damn' flute thing meant that, in actually trying to play, I've tried once or twice actively to learn a tune I don't already have in my head. Waste of time. I can memorise it all right. But somehow it stays dead - a string of notes. If it grabs me enough for me to start humming away at the thing - in the car, in the park, having my hair done, whatever ... then I don't have to work too much to play it. (Well, apart from fingers turning into sausages and embouchure disappearing, that is.)
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"I've tried once or twice actively to learn a tune I don't already have in my head". By what process ?
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by david_h
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Putting the CD in the slot and pressing play. Then pause. Then play. etc
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
All this talk of dots being the bones of the tune reminds me of zombies, which leads me to suggest that there are at least two zombie discussions that haunt The Session--'performance' and 'dots!'
And like zombies, I would say that these two topics have been done to death, and then done again, and again, and again.....
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
....do you think a wooden stake would work?....
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
If you play from the dots at a session, is it a performance, Grasshopper?
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Batlady
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Am I alone here in thinking that dots are sometimes the best way to learn a tune?
Don't get me wrong, I don't mean always - certainly not for beginners, and not for learning the tunes your local session plays.
BUT, assuming you are a competent musician within your own tradition, there comes a time when you get bored of playing the same old tunes over and over, and need to look for something fresh.
Now suppose you are an Irish fiddler, and you hear Jerry Holland playing a Cape Breton tune you really like. What are you going to do? You could listen to the track over and over, play along, and get the tune down just like Jerry plays it - as a Cape Breton tune. OR, having decided it is a tune you want, you could deliberately not listen to it again, but search out the dots and learn it from them. Do it that way and you get the tune, but you get it in your own style, not his.
I know which approach I prefer.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by skreech
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Putting the CD in the slot and pressing play. Then pause. Then play. etc" Isn't that nearer to - but still a long long way from - learning from a person phrase by phrase than listening to the tune until its in your head then playing from that ? I'm finding the play, pause (rewind
), play, pause is a more satisfying route.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by david_h
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Al Brown - I've seen enough zombie movies to know that they must have their head removed in order to stop them. However, as long as Irish music continues to captivate people all over the globe; to suddenly pick up a flute or a fiddle or a banjo at some middle-aged part of their lives and pursue this happy art, there will be discussions like this. I agree with Greg's (he of the tuned piano) notion that sessions need to be nurtured by the elders in regards to this matter. Miss Lonelyhearts gives us the most lucid and clear-headed opinion of this matter. The rest is just more classic yellow-board screaming and invective - which I of course enjoy immensely for some sort of prurient reasons I myself can't explain.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
More satisfying than what david? IMO there s absolutely no way in better than sitting with someone learning the tunes. When I started they would generally just show me the tune, the bones, then perhaps some variations, but really the variation is supposed to come from inside you once you really know the tune.
If you just copy another musicians variation, I did this as well, then that kind of defeats the point. In fact for me it meant I had to unlearn these variations before I could actually interpret the tunes in my own way.When I say 'unlearn' I mean I had to strip away these variations until I had the melody pure and simple, which then gave me the structure on which to build. When I tried to vary these bits before doing this there wasn't the solid melody which I could build upon, rather some fancy bits that gave no 'openings' they were like the cup that is full, they left no room for personal input and interpretation.
This is why we talk about deconstruction then reconstruction. Really simplifying, stripping it down to the bones and then building up again.
In fact if we go for the bones analogy look at it like this; underneath the skin muscle etc aren't our bone structures remarkably similar in ways? Although this structure is fundamental to our looks and size etc, maybe its the amount and positioning of muscle and fat that gives us our
characteristic shapes.
With the tunes its how we interpret them that gives them their distinctive character as played by us. The bones we play might be similar, or even identical perhaps but over years the tunes morph into creations that are distinctly personal, rhythmically, melodically , harmonically and 'ornamentally.' Were 2 people to learn the same tune note for note and then meet again 20yrs later would they still play them the same?! I doubt it.
This flexibility and adaptation is at the heart of the music IMO. Yes its important, when playing with others, to be able to listen respond and 'blend' But there are many who view trad as fundamentally a solo art. The session being a relatively modern phenomena that can simply lead to standardisation, generic 'euro trad', and a 'lowest common denominator' standard .
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Do you really think I hadn't noticed his grammer/spelling?!?? Come on, I wouldn't stoop so low as to mock someone's spelling. Anyhow I rely on spell check........"
yes, of course you do.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by domnull
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Don't ban Jig/trapiper etc....
Keep him here forever.
I often come back to this beaut...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22176
...and it doesn't even have anything to do with dots....
Genius....and surreal.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Yes,Hugo-and that's only the heavily censored version of the thread-you should have seen it in the original,lol!
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Jig's little essay, above, is a remarkable description of how selfish he is with the music. How little he respects it and how enamoured he is with his own abilities.
He starts with, "there's absolutely nothing better than sitting with someone learning the tunes". I'm glad he at least starts with something I agree with. But then we begin to diverge. When I sit with a musician I respect and they show me how they play a tune, and variations (same thing in my book, tune/variation, it's all tune, but we'll leave that for now) I do my utmost to sponge it all up. Learn the lot. respect the lot. Internalise it all. Not so with Jig. He casts it aside. Wants nothing but the odd string of disconnected notes. He has such an ego that he is convinced that his style and rhythm, his twiddley bits, his "personal input and interpretation" are what the music requires. So much so that he makes a deliberate effort to eschew the majority of what is being shown to him in order that he can painstakingly reconstruct it in his own image.
I'm not saying that one should not play with one's own personality, of course not. I'm not saying that you should only play clones of other people's work, of course not.
But the tradition survives as the splendid thing it is because the best exponents of it, the best players, humble themselves before it. They consider the input of others who have gone befor them to be immeasurably more important than themselves.
The best players use and build on everything that has gone before them. They disgard nothing.
So how do you build a bit of yourself into it? The answer is without effort. You simply will not be able to help yourself from doing so. Once you realise, after much study of course, that the music is structured largely by small - more often than not off the cuff - choices, you will begin to allow yourself the freedom to do this yourself. And hopefully, if you've been paying attention to the generous people who show you tunes, those little choices will end up reflecting the stock of the tradition. But if you try to make a concious effort to force this, not only will you make a pigs ear of it, you'll end up playing music that no one else would want to play with.
But at least we can find solice for the decent musicians of Clare. Jig views the music as fundamentally a solo art.
(though unfortunate that we can't extend that solace the thesession.org)
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
When a person claims to know "everything about it", that's usually the first sign you are dealing with fool.
As for sheet music to me that is all it is, A piece of paper... and kind of a fun way to visualize how some else "heard it". A really fun exercise for those who read dots, is to go ahead and start doing some transcribing of how you think a tune you learned by ear should look, its another angle with which one can study music in general.
Irish music isn't special in not fitting into classical notation. Reliance on sheet music is a sad tyranny, and takes music away from your core experience, it forces people to cognify something that is inherent to the species... instutionalises our spirit. Imagine if every time you made love you were reading off a piece of paper?
That said, I still like to read dots sometimes... as i mentioned before good for reading while sitting on the toilet.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
What? How does "stripping a tune to its bare bones" and putting in your own interpretation on it do you or the tune any good? Are you saying that you are so brilliant that you don't need to absorb anything from the people you learn the tunes from and your own "interpretation" will suffice? What?? Really?
Your own interpretation will come through anyway unless you have worked really really hard to play exactly like whoever. I'll direct that statement to skreech as well. If I learn a Cape Breton tune from Jerry Holland, it comes out sounding like me playing an uilleann piping tune (which is too bad).
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No Im saying thats how I was taught. and thats how musicians I respect look at it . Perhaps thats why typically the tunes are written with little ornamentation, not because it can't be put in, because it can of course , but because by doing so that defeats the object . Look at GHB music, notation here is near complete, although timing is still very approximate.
If you were to learn your tunes, note for note, with all the ornamentation, then where and how do you vary that in the traditional way? Where are the Highland pipers that do this for example? You could say this is because of a reliance on notation, perhaps it is, but if all the ornaments are prescribed in advance , how do you go about ornamenting in your own way?
Ive seen llig here go on about the roll at the begining of some tune, he learnt it with a rolll, this is ' how the tune goes', but its not. Hes just wrong, the tune does not have a roll at the beginning, that is an optional ornament. This is exactly the sort of fundamental mistake that he has made and propounds here. He learnt the tune with a roll, so he thinks that if you dont play the roll, you cant play the tune. Therefore an instrument like the banjo, cant play the tune, because it cant roll. Which of course is complete nonsense. This is why he has the foolish idea about concertinas, boxes banjos not being able to play the tunes right.. That he has propounded here over the years. Which of course is rubbish as demonstrated clearly by Jackie Daly, Chris Droney and everyone.
LLig seems to have these fixed Ideas of right settings of tunes and wrong settings, How anyone who has been playing this music for awhile could hold such ideas I dont know. Id agree there could be 'good settings' and 'bad settings, but thats subjective personal taste, though of course llig will come along and say its objective. This is another fundamental error that is shown up clearly when examined closely. ;
Llig plays the 'right' setting for the salamance. If you or I play a different setting, it is the 'wrong' setting according to him and we must have no taste or be tone deaf or stupid, according to llig. Ah, but Bobby Casey plays a different setting to llig, the wrong setting. So now we have llig , who wont even demonstrate his playing telling us that Bobby Casey, an acknowledged master, is playing it wrong. Not just Bobby Casey, Even Tommy Peoples plays it wrong according to llig. So did, Leo Rowesome, etc etc.
You ask how does stripping it down to the bones help.. Im glad you asked this question. It helps your rhythm. It will help you to sit in phase and not shift the ion beat to the off beat over the course of half a dozen bars. Too many pipers and fiddlers assume that because master players play with full ornamentation, that therfor thats what they should do, they attempt to reproduce the work of a lifetime from day one. Its an approach that is demonstrated over and over again by poor rhythm, crowded confused playing, external technique to the exclusion of spirit.
If you havent tried this approach, why not give it a go? one of the best up and coming pipers I have heard for a very long time does exactly this, its about subtle and delicate control of tone and pitch . Once this is accomplished, within the structure of the tunes, then slowly reconstruct , or vary/ornament.
Its not about technique, especially for pipers, though of course technique is essential, its about music. The technique is there to support the music, this is primary.
Its about singing through your instrument.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I really hope you're not having a go at me.
Yes, it's true that a lot of people have unstable rhythm and use more ornamentation than they can handle, but a lot of sorting that is learning to play slowly and steadily and make sure the timing of your rolls, crans and triplets etc. isn't out of rhythm. The whole idea of stripping a tune down to its "bones" is bizarre -- I mean, the tunes aren't even tunes without ornamentation, especially on the bloody pipe where you can't get to where you're going half the time without cuts, rolls, crans, etc as they are your only ways of articulating and emphasizing the rhythm.
I have learned tunes more or less note for note, with ornamentation. Funnily enough I don't have any trouble with variations (once I am familiar with the tune) and unfortunately I still don't sound like Mick O'Brien (or whoever I learned the tune from).
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No of course not. The tunes are still tunes without ornamentation. There are so many styles and players who use little in the way of ornamentation How can you say they are not playing the tunes?
The ornaments areone way we vary the tune. So tell me this, if you learn a roll in a specific place, how do you vary that? instead of the roll what do you do? lets take a specific example say the first few notes of http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1049
What are the options? a d roll, ded, dcd, d3, d(3ddd) slide up to the d3/d roll, dAd, .other pipe possibilities?
What is the simplest possible way of playing it?: d3.
All the other options stem from this fundamental note. this is the first half of the first bar deconstructed. All the other possibilities revolve around this one plain note.
What on earth is bizarre about that?
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Use little, maybe, but not drop it entirely. Ornamentation IS part of Irish music, although obviously the nature of it will vary from individual to individual. Saying that it's an optional extra is like saying you can ski perfectly well without learning to turn Sure, if you point your skis straight down the hill and just go, you will get to the bottom eventually. But is that really skiing? Or is it just falling down a hill? I think most people will say that a fundamental part of learning to ski is learning how to articulate your way through the snow. Learning tunes without ornamentation/articulation is just playing a series of notes.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Your other point, about playing slowly, yes that is important, but so is playing at the speed of the session. Its all well and good playing the tunes slow and steady, with all the ornaments in the right place, but try doing this at a fast session pace, not so easy at all. Lots of people just give up at this point, they cant play fast, It frustrates them. Thats because they dont practice playing fast. Why dont they practice playing fast? because they cant fit all the ornaments and stuff in that they have learnt and think 'should; be in there.
By stripping down to the fundamentals you always have a fall back position. This position also allows you to listen to how others are varying and playing the tune, if you are busy filling it up with fancy finger-work its not so easy to listen to others over the 'noise' you are making.
For example; In the tune I mentioned above, By playing the plain d3, you can hear clearly in relation to your d3 what the other player is doing.
Especially when the other player/s is that much better than you, having a super simplified almost chordal approach allows other to ''fly above'' what you do.
Listen to Mick O'Brian and Caoimhín O Raghallaigh playing together, focus on Caoimhín, see how his style complements Mick.
Its typical in some sessions for everyone to go hell for leather, playing as many notes as they can fit in! Its by reducing, being able to simplify down to the bones, that gives more space for the music, and thereby the players, more room to breath and express themselves.
If all you have is a highly ornamented style then you can end up playing alone, because there is no room for anyone else., unless you can find a class, sensitive, versatile musician like Caoimhín who realises that communal music making is about playing and working together, cooperating for the good of the music. Its not about ego and technique , about how good, or fast, or how flash you can play, its about playing together, really playing together.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
You can't really learn how to play at breakneck session speed until you can play at a moderate pace and not f*ck up the timing too badly. That's what I meant, aiming that sort of advice for people starting out on this journey.
In a way you are stating the blindingly obvious: I play less ornamented when I'm racing along at a 100mph session than when I'm playing at a more laid back pace. Duh. I don't have to "learn" a less ornamented version of a tune to do this. I just do it. And I'm not particularly brilliant, but even your sort of mediocre player who understands the music and can listen is capable of adapting and adjusting on the fly to their fellow musicians. That's one of the advantages to the advice guys like Miss Lonelyhearts, Michael, and Bogman have been repeating over and over again here -- it gives you the aural tools to adapt on the fly.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Well, going off in a somewhat new direction: I wonder if all of you commenting about "ornaments" have the same definition of ornaments in mind. If you don't that's when discussions about "highly ornamented" get confused.
It seems to me that it is clear that cuts, strikes, crans, grips, rolls and the like are ornaments. But, what about taking the first beat of a jig in G and playing G3 (maybe with a roll) or GFG or GBG or G2 G or any other such thing?? That really isn't, in my book an ornament but rather a melodic variation. Certainly that sort of thing is really important in good ITM, but when referred to as ornaments I think some folks, including me, get confused....
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by cboody
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
That's why I'd rather use the word "articulation" rather than "ornament," since playing a G roll or GFG are different methods of articulating a phrase of a tune.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Good on you, silver spear. That's precisely why "articulation" is a more descriptive, accurate term than "ornament."
"Ornament" is a hold over term from the old boys who didn't need more precise language because everyone who played this music back in the day was immersed in the culture of it. That's not true today. And we're wise to be more careful with our words.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
But bear in mind that what this music thrives on is playing with the whole gamut of articulations, no matter what pace the tunes are flying at.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Sorry to revert but just need to express my irritation that Ionnanas 'essay' started out with a question to me. If he had read my post and ethical blend's it would have been clear what two approaches to learning a tune we were talking about.
The irritation is that in most situations where people have a 'preference' for one approach over another the interest is in examining the reason. But Ionnanas has to turn it into "my method is better than your method".
Probably crossing. Have grace notes come up yet ?
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by david_h
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"grace notes" are just another way to articulate in this music. And they're more about articulating the timing, not gracing pitches.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
So, from Silver Spear's comment, articulation can cover both rhythmic and melodic effects. Or doesn't the difference between GFG and GBG, and a maybe G roll, count as melodic variation ?
I'm not just being picky about words, because to my ear that, and, for example, what notes are chosen at the end of the final bar of a part before looping back, do have a melodic effect. And I read that in some forms of music a little twitch of dissonance before the main note is part of the style - is that 'gracing pitches' ?
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by david_h
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No David, it was not clear and I did read your posts.
Variation is variation, yes, there are separate terms for ornaments and various articulations. but they are all ways to vary the tune. Grace notes are both articulation and ornament, depending on the instrument and how they are played.
I dont consider melodic variation to be articulation, articulation is how you say a phrase, where you stress is and in what way What you are articulating is the melody, the tune and its variations. Ornaments like cuts and taps are considered to be articulations because they can serve a function to separate two notes and delineate a phrase, also to clarify the rhythm as they can have a percussive effect..
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I give up.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by david_h
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Never mind David, you could never listen to another tune, never learn anything but from dots ignore all that has gone before and still be ten times the player you would be if you paid heed to the nonsensical ramblings of that raving lunatic.
Every thread, fvked.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
'This taught me the benefits of the metronome which I then used to tighten up my bass playing. I enjoy playing fiddle tunes to a metronome because I can relax and know that I can rely on its solidity . If you cant play with a metronome then you cant keep a steady beat. Which means that it will be very hard for anyone to dance to your playing'
The above is taken from the pfofile of Ionannas/tradpiper/jig etc.
I urge anyone new to this forum to listen to the performance of the 'Rights of Man' in that profile.
You can then decide if any advice from that quarter re fiddle playing is worth heeding.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Sorry Llig to keep quoting verbatim, but there's some serious nuggets in there:
"...So how do you build a bit of yourself into it? The answer is without effort. You simply will not be able to help yourself from doing so...But if you try to make a concious effort to force this, not only will you make a pigs ear of it, you'll end up playing music that no one else would want to play with..."
If you love something, set it free. Stop trying to smother it. Let it be itself and love it for what it is. It will come to you if you keep approaching it properly.
(My new pop psychology book will be out next month. There's a rumor I might get to go on Oprah.)
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Nice quote from Llig there and that is essentially one of the points I was making earlier. You don't need to expend conscious effort into *not* playing like so-and-so. Just play and your own style will just come through effortlessly.
David,
Yes. It's all melodic variation. I see that as the end result; it's what articulation leads to. Whatever thing you do to get from one note to the next, be it a roll, a triplet, or even holding a note, is articulation. If you change how you do that as you play the tune, you get melodic variation since the melody doesn't sound exactly the same when you play a G roll, for instance, as it does when you play a GFG triplet. The phrasing, the emphasis, will change slightly. Simple. Ionnannas' theory that there are ornaments, melodic variations, articulations, and somehow all these are separate things that can be got rid of and tunes reduced to some skeleton is needlessly complicated and misleading. Articulations, or ornaments if you really want to call it that, are parts of the tunes.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Well said, Biggus Dave !
Any newby tempted to take the advice of such an experienced musician, stallion-tamer, stick-fighter and rider with the wraggle taggle gipsies should listen to his online musical offerings. Such temptation will be soon dispelled.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by murfbox
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Thanks SS. I have this hunch that someone could come along and say that so far as the basic melody is concerned those are all standing for a G (probably G3) and so the melody had not varied. The message seems to be that they are rythmically distinct because they are melodically different (same a playing the roll backwards would be).
But I did get the point, and understood what you meant by 'ornamented', in your first post.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by david_h
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
David, you've got it: this music is all about the interweaving of melody and timing--"making a melody dance"--and so any variation to one (e.g., melody) affects the other (timing) and vice versa.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
And then it all comes together, it stops being a collection of notes and rhythm and articulations and ornaments, it just is the tune, difficult to pin down, and words or dots on a page fail you when you try to explain it, then you have it!
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Folk Music ...
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by zoukboy
Re: The Proper Handling of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic?
Finally sitting down and giving U-Tube a slew of my time, as I read and listen with headphones, I looked up and noticed that on dear Brother Ryan Dunns videos, teaching the whistle and playing tunes, he's sometimes, obviously, reading music too.
Ryan Dunn, whistle ~ between his beginning and intermediate series ~
The Blackthorn Stick / The Frost is All Over / Donnybrook Fair
~ one example of where he's reading off the sheetmusic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5uMGSBWWXU
That reminded me of my own situation at times. Sometimes when teaching, in order to keep me centered and on the straight and narrow ~ avoding being too confusing with variations and different takes ~ I will check back with the version I'm trying to teach for the moment, to get that basic across, unhampered by variation, to give a decent and steady start to those I'm teaching, before slipping into teaching 'other ways' with it.
On that topic, another reminder ~
Discussion: a Question About Variations....
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Nate Ryan
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22925
While I don't use notation when teaching, in general, I do provide it, to take home, as a reminder of the basic bones of the melody, and some variations and points on ornamentation, as well as also providing recordings of the tunes taught...
I'm particularly fond of the portability of ABC notation and it has served me well when writing down a couple of bars of a tune picked up at a session or from another ~ just enough of a hook for me to revived it again when I get home.
Handled properly notation is a great tool to have at hand. It isn't the notation that is generally at fault, it is the inexperience or other problems with the person who uses or abuses it, or suffers its barbituate addiction and potentially numbing influence. It doesn't pretend to be anything than what it is, a skeleton, an aid memoir, just a guide, not the answer, not the thing complete. If you have enough experience and understanding behind you, and I've seen this often in practice and execution, then you can pull a skeleton off the sheet and like Doctor Frankenstein cloth it in muscle and the rest of what a body requires, and animate it with that understanding, like a bolt of lightning to Frankenstein's Monster, only in this case, if you've got your chemistry and physics right, something not monsterous, something with spirit.
It is only inexperience that creates something akin to a zombie of a tune from connecting the dots ~ the living dead lumbering clumsily onward and incomplete, not quite the spark of life, not tradition as we love it, lacking that understanding and experience required for it to be fully breathing and inspired...
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I hate folk music
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by llig leahcim
Sorry C, that wasn't for you
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
A hearty AMEN to ceolachan's statement above. For me that nails most of the whole issue.
As to the "what term to use" issue: For me
1) "graces" covers cuts, strikes, crans etc. They are primarily articulative and, of course, totally different from the classical graces.
2) "Articulation" covers stress, phrasing, breath points (used by fiddles too!) often gracing, and other things that shape a given set of notes but don't alter the set of notes.
3) "variation" covers the issue of substituting one set of notes for another but sometimes includes some of the things that happen when gracing (like a long roll on G replacing a G3).
So, my approach. If you don't like it have at it.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by cboody
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Is it true, as Ionannas states above, *we* do not have an online recording of Mr. Llig's solo playing? Just asking.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Random_notes
*
Ionannas, I never said anything about spelling.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I remember when someone linked a video of llig's session to a discussion here, and from what I heard, all the fiddlers in the video were pretty darn good--nothing to prove there.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ironic, I have seen it twice ~ second time linked by Ionannas, if I remember right. Go figure.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
As usual, I believe Ceolachan has hit the nail on the head. Sheet music is best used as a memory aid. But it an do more harm than good if the primary learning tool, the ears, have not been fed enough info. What is the point in a good memory if you don't know what to remember? If you listen to a tune played 200 times by 50 different people over time you will have picked up a fairly good idea of the tune. Without that experience, when you look at sheetmusic there is only one way to see it - as the bare bones.
Random, with regard to your questions above, in this discussion forum you don't really need your ears, sometimes reading with your eyes tells you all you need to know. I don't need to hear the likes of Llig, Miss L or Ceol to respect their words and I don't need to hear that a certain other can't play to dismiss their ramblings.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
The point is random; its easy to sit in a session and , much much easier than playing solo. If you want to compare something, how do you compare chalk with cheese?
Anyone can sound good in a band,so many issues are taken care of. The rhythm player keeps the rhythm. The chord player lays a nice rhythmic underlay, the box , banjo pipes etc create solid intonation. Its simply a different thing.
Also sitting in a session creates a secondary entity; the group. You cant judge a player on the band and you cant judge a band on one player.
Also recording can be off-putting as anyone who has done it knows Especially recording 'cold'.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ok,in the knowledge that Llig won't thank me for this...I have heard him play in situ at Sandy Bells both in session and solo mode.
Your chalk and cheese situations,as was put above.
Very fine fiddle playing indeed,imo.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Anyone can sound good in a band"
Absolute rubbish. A band is only as good as the sum of it's parts. Where was the weak link in the Bothy Band? Planxity? or today with Danu, Flook, Lunasa? (taste is a different thing) Do you think any of the players in these bands relay on a 'rhythm player' to keep the rhythm or another player to create solid intonation?
"You cant judge a player on the band and you cant judge a band on one player." - yes, I agree with you - yipee.
Though there is a small amount of truth in recording being off-putting to some it's usually down to a lack of confidence as a result of the truth being revealed. The recorder doesn't lie. You can hide but you can't polish a turd.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Anyone can sound good in a band? What planet are you on?
I hate recording myself for the reasons Bogman says, although I do it occasionally. By the way you can be sure no recording of me is coming within 10 miles of the internet.
I think two points always come up in these ears v. dots rows. People end up thinking that the "anti sheet music crowd" is saying you should never look at dots, ever, when the main argument actually being made is that you shouldn't use them as your primary learning tool and you especially shouldn't use them as your primary learning tool when you are a beginner and haven't yet developed a feel for the music.
I wouldn't agree with cboody's three definitions for the reason that it is *all* articulative. Cuts, taps, crans, rolls, triplets substituting one note for another, they are all integral in how you give life to the melody and make the tune sound like a tune. As soon as you start categorizing things you lose the holistic approach to playing tunes.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Cboody did say that his:
1) "graces" are primarily articulative
and
3) "variation" includes some of the things that happen when gracing - so that's primarily articulative too.
(and his number 2) was "articulation")
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Reanimated Zombie tunes?!? Run for your lives!!!
Now that's scary stuff, right on time for Halloween too, nice job Mr. C. I'll probably have nightmares later.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Fair play, Bogman ~ on this forum.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Random_notes
~
thanks biggus dave, you gave a straight answer. ;)
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Re sheet music as a memory aid - yeah, every now and again I'll forget how some bit of a tune goes, and I can fill in the missing part in more than one way that makes some amount of sense musically, but I don't know which version (if any) is the standard one. In those cases, I'll consult the dots in order to find out...well, not necessarily the *right* way to play the missing bits, but the way that at least someone played it.
But the other day this failed. I was revisiting a reel that I learned one way, and that I've heard played differently. The different (and incompatible) versions I'd heard were overlapping in my mind in such a way that I wasn't able to play any of them. I had a feeling that something was off rhythmically from my playing - was I missing half a bar somewhere? inserting a few notes illegally, so to speak? emphasizing the wrong part? - but I couldn't put my finger on it. The only sheet music I found for this tune didn't solve my problem - it was quite different from anything I'd heard or played, but more importantly, although the notes in each bar of the transcription added up, I was unable to internalize the rhythm to the point that I could play the tune fluidly. All the sheet music did was gave me a set of notes to play in a given order, which wasn't what I'd set out to do. I decided I'd try to transcribe my incomplete version when I had a few moments and a pen and paper handy, and see if I could figure what was wrong my transcription, but I never got around to it.
Frustrated, I set this aside, and some days later, while walking home, I was remembering something llig had said in a recent thread about playing in time - he suggested playing while walking around, as walking has a natural rhythm to it. While walking, I hummed the reel that had been torturing me for weeks. It came out effortlessly, to the point that I was wondering what it was that had given me so much trouble in the first place. When I got home, I picked up the fiddle, and the tune emerged there as well. Perhaps sheet music would have been an adequate memory aid, but it wasn't my memory that was the problem...or if it was, it wasn't something in the transcription I'd forgotten.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Zombie tunes"? Would one of them be named "Shaun's Jig" or maybe "Shaun's Reel"? And would they be played in a re-animated style and in the key of dead flat?
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
This is not by design ~ it just happens. In session there are certain tunes which I cannot play well *if* I think about them too hard. A number of times someone will start a tune & I will join in, even though I cannot place a name with the tune. Afterwards I may ask the name. It is not that unusual for the tune to turn out to be I would have stumbled on (tricky bits) had I known the name.
Hope this makes sense. The way my brain ~ works sometimes less information is better for playing tunes.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Random_notes
~
The way my brain works ~ sometimes . . .
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
There's the rub. Sheet music is *information* (incomplete as it is), but what you need to be able to play the tunes is *understanding.*
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
. . .
What ever it is, it helps to have some good mates to play with.
cheers!
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ionannas: "If you just copy another musicians variation, I did this as well, then that kind of defeats the point"
Really? I agree that copying someone else's rendition of a tune, note-for-note, ornament-for-ornament, inflection-for-inflection, should not be an ultimate goal. But, as an intermediate stage in the learning process, it seems to me to be perfectly valid - I call it 'learning by example'. Personally, I have never had enough discipline, a good enough ear, technique or memory to replicate exactly anyone else's playing of a tune. But I have had a fair stab at it, and the result is my own 'interpretation' of the tune, based on X's rendition, perhaps also Y's, and coloured by my own shortcomings. I know I've still got a long way to go - I've been at this music for about 14 years in all, 6 or 7 of those pretty single-mindedly - but plagiarism seems to be an effective way to form a style of your own.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Have a listen to Kevin Burke's playing of Rolling in the Barrell and In the Tap Room. Then go listen to Bobby Casey's playing of the same set. You can immediately hear Mr. Casey's playing in Kevin's own.
Erm, that's precisely what makes it "traditional" music and not indie, improv, or something else.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I've noticed that the tunes I learn by ear (e.g. most of Arty McGlynn's disc, and Kitty Lie Over) stick in my memory the best. Perhaps cutting out one step in the process makes the mind focus best on the music itself.
However, I use dots, because hearing a tune played 3x at a session (and then not hearing it again for a month or two) is not enough to learn it. Also I find it tough to learn everything by ear, because at high speed the inflections etc are hard to pick out.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by chris stolz
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Also I find it tough to learn everything by ear, because at high speed the inflections etc are hard to pick out."
Not really. It's not about how fast the music goes by, but how experienced a listener *to this music* you are. The more hours you spend listening--really listening--the easier it gets. And that's a crucial skill for sessioning, so you might as well start gaining it now, eh?
Not meaning to sound preachy--just the voice of experience. Stick with the ear--it'll feel easier sooner than you expect, and continue to pay off over the long haul.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
It's also a very easy thing to ask someone to play something slowly for you (most players are happy to help someone who wants to learn). If you carry a recorder with you when you go to sessions, you'll be able to bring it home with you and listen to it as many times as you like.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by kennedy
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Been reading my way through an '02 thread & doing the old cut & paste on another thread . . . still learning & lovin'
"Oh ..
And about this spurious 500 tunes thing.
I know an old bloke I play with occasionally who only knows about 20 tunes. But he's brilliant
I'm not saying you only need 20, but for him, 20 is enough.
Try not learning any new tunes until your board with ALL the tunes you know.
That should slow your quest down abit"
Posted on July 10th 2002 by llig leahcim
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Random_notes
7 years
bet he knows 30 in 2009!
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
To reinforce Miss Lonelyhearts point about really listening... It's so easy to listen to music but let it wash over you without taking it in. I'm assuming others get this, but if you're reading a book while something else is on your mind you can get that thing where you've read a couple of pages but realize you haven't taken anything in. So you go back and re-read because you've probably missed something important. It's very easy to listen to music without really hearing it. I couldn't agree more strongly about the importance of - really - listening.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
<<plagiarism seems to be an effective way to form a style of your own.>> Really? then why are there so many tedious clones about? Who comes to your mind today when you think of outstanding fiddlers? Where is the Johnny Doherty? the John Vesey? Dennis Murphy? Bobby Casey, Paddy Caney? There is literally no one even approaching these guys. Why? We can come out with some names that are great ok in their own right, but compared to these guys they still fall far far behind . Why is that?
If you think these guys 'copied' someone else's style, then who and how? there were no or little in the way of recordings so the only option would be to sit in with one or more role model, It was simply impossible to copy another's style in the way we can now. and IMO so much of the music around to day displays this lack of individuality.
There are a few fiddlers today who do stand out , who did thy copy? Martin for example? who did he copy? OK he was influenced strongly by the formative people around him, but he found his own way. Kevin, Paddy, Tommy, Frankie, Liz yes there are some pretty good/Amazing fiddlers, and plenty out and about. But if you put them next to the greats, they would be the first to agree that there is no real comparison. Or do you think there are?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
~ chill ~
smoke a fat doobie. I get it but, you are probably not the people you name. If you have something original ~ grand. Not sure why anyone should care, besides your immediate family. cheers!
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Is it just me, or does anyone else wince when he pretends he's on first name terms with these people?
Is he standing on their shoulders, I wonder? Or kicking at their toenails?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Out of context again ionannas.
OPC also said,
"But, as an intermediate stage in the learning process, it seems to me to be perfectly valid"
Absolutely. Can't imagine many disagreeing with that.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Well it seems obvious enough that Bobby Casey started off with much of his tunes and his style from his father, Scully. He often said so to anyone who asked.
And when Coleman's records came out, nearly everyone copied him. This and more is all well-documented history.
I used to listen in on John Vesey's house sessions in Philadelphia in the late 1970s. He encouraged everyone to listen to Coleman, Killoran, and Morrison, as Vesey himself did.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
"Tommy Peoples:
Casting a Long Shadow"
by Brendan Taaffe
Fiddler Magazine
http://www.irishfiddle.com/peoplesinterview.html
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Besides, all of today's wonderful fiddlers readily give credit to their mentors and the players who passed the music down.
If you want individuality well rooted within the tradition, I'd recommend listening to Oisin MacDarmada, Maire Breathnach, Siobhan Peoples, John Egan, Brendan Bulger, Brid Harper, and a host of others.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGyhboYFfOE
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Nice clip Random, Irish legends playing Scottish tunes. Not afraid to copy others. Not afraid it would turn them into 'clones'. Coleman said he was greatly influenced by Scott Skinner. The style of great players comes from respecting and utilizing their favourite bits of a lifetimes worth of influences.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I LOVE Maire Breathnach. I wish I knew where to find more recordings of her playing traditional stuff (nothing wrong with her original music, but I'm looking for source material for my own playing...)...so if anyone knows where to find any recordings of her, please let me know!
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by kennedy
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I was amazed at the assertion by jig that anyone can play well in a band. Such an ego ! A good reason not to play in a band with such a person.
I would have no hesitation in playing in a band with SS , who I know plays well and thinks at length about how and what she plays. She is also far too modest about her own playing skills.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Whats amazing about that? you think its easier to sit alone and record than it is to play with others and record? really! care to demonstrate.? !As a guitarist its definitely easier with a backer. As a fiddler it is too, same with mandolin and banjo. Much easier to share the load between a group than to stand alone. You think its harder to play in/ record with, a band? or are you taking my words out of context?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Hey, why don't you start a band with your mates Martin, Kevin, Paddy, Tommy, Frankie and Liz? You could be the glue that holds them all together.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
You said, "Anyone can sound good in a band"
Do you hold to that?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
jig, that is
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
in context yes;
>>its easy to sit in a session and , much much easier than playing solo. If you want to compare something, how do you compare chalk with cheese?
Anyone can sound good in a band,so many issues are taken care of. The rhythm player keeps the rhythm. The chord player lays a nice rhythmic underlay, the box , banjo pipes etc create solid intonation. Its simply a different thing.
Also sitting in a session creates a secondary entity; the group. You cant judge a player on the band and you cant judge a band on one player.
Also recording can be off-putting as anyone who has done it knows Especially recording 'cold'. <<
Compared to playing solo...
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
So, Kevin Burke can't make it for the Bothy Band but they want to record "Rights of Man"........you could do the job and would sound good then?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
So you are playing the fiddle, say, in your band. You don't need to keep in time, you don't need to be in tune. Great.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Yeah, poor old Kevin Burke (Kevin to you of course) He has to pack it all in 'cause Donal Lunny's making play a big five part reel on his tod. He's apoplexic with fear, waiting for his mates to join in. "Jesus" he says, "I could do with a metronome".
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
well show us hows its done llig. Its easy to critisise .
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I will, I said I will. When you get barred for good
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Anyone can sound good in a band" - but only if they're of at least the same level of experience and competence as the other members of the band. This essential point appears to have been overlooked. The same principle applies to any ensemble.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
He already was barred for good but he "did a Jesus".
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Not always the case Lazy, one brilliant musician in a band with three ok musos can lift the whole sound far above what the three could do on their own surely.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
You mean like if they are the glue?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Yes, one brilliant musician can lift the sound of a band but he doesn't make the ok players any better. They still sound like what they sound like.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
And ok players are not just 'anyone' they are ok players.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Have you never played with a better player who draws music out of you that was better than you could have imagined? Just by sitting in with some guys, everyone plays better. No musician simply has one level, they have good days, bad days, they play with dodgy musicians who make everyone sound bad and great musicians who make everyone sound better. or dont you agree?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Sorry but I think you miss the point of playing together in a band or any band I would wish to play in jig. It's about playing together being better than as indeviduals It's about being collective and performance . It's not the same as playing in a session.
I know a few indeviduals who are good solo players but lack the skills needed to play in a band.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
anyhow bogman,. of course Im talking about people who can play. If I weren't then yes you'd be right; not everyone can play well in a band, people who cant play, for example will have a hard time playing well in a band!
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Fair enough dave, but that doesnt mean their skills are lacking, but perhaps the other players simply cant accommodate them?
A session is a group of people playing together.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I dont really see that much difference between a band; a group of people playing together and a session, a group of people playing together. Yes of course there are superficial differences, such as arrangements, etc but fundamentally they are the same thing. IMO
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Leaving bands aside I find I play better as an accompanist in sessions with better musicians than I do with less good musicians, or at least I think I do. Perhaps this is what Ionannas means. Essentially though this is just because they make the job so easy.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Sounds like you've experienced that Jig. Your skills weren't lacking, but the other players simply couldn't accomodate you.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Yes of course there are superficial differences [between a band and a session], such as arrangements, etc but fundamentally they are the same thing."
I am sorry but no! Arrangements are not superficial things. Working out the balance of the instruments is not superficial. There is a lot more to do in arranging sets for a band than there is just turning up to a session and playing some tunes. This is just one of the many reasons why a session is not a performance.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Exactly, and vice versa. A good backer can make a session, conversely a bad backer can ruin one. Same with recording.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Some bands No cause, but not all. Some bands just get together and play the tunes.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Of course there are many different types of session out there:
http://www.thesession.org/sessions/display/2416/comments
!!
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Ionannas, Haven't you realized that you have made your point more than enough times? You are not going to change anyone's mind by saying the same thing over and over. The fact that they do not agree with you does not mean that they are stupid, or haven't heard what you are saying, they just don't agree with you. Let it go...
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Yes indeed Ionannas, lazy bands!
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
But fundamentally they are both groups of people playing music together, as opposed to playing solo. some with more or less arrangements etc. compare zappa, or Jethro tull who arranged everything with say the Jimi Hendrix experience.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Al, its called discussion, Im not trying to 'convert ' anyone, just chatting while I search my HD for some lost files.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
"Exactly, and vice versa"
What was that post refering too?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
I would guess:
"Leaving bands aside I find I play better as an accompanist in sessions with better musicians than I do with less good musicians, or at least I think I do. Perhaps this is what Ionannas means. Essentially though this is just because they make the job so easy."
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Yep, a cross post, my bad, should have quoted it.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Jig, are you deliberatly not replying to any of my posts because of what you said in you biog?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No, sorry, just busy.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
But some of your posts seem like you are just interested 'point scoring ' so those I do just ignore.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Moi?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
Do you stand on the shoulders of giants?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
No I just back them.
Im just an old toenail kicker 
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
To call it discussion, Ionannas, is to give it a dignity that it does not deserve.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
what do you call it then Al?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
The man's never had a discussion in his life
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Proper Handling and/or Disposal of Potentially Toxic Material ~ Sh*tmusic
To paraphrase The Bard, lets call it "all sound and fury, signifying nothing."
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by AlBrown
ceolachan ~ next time, play the polkas. ;)
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by Random_notes