This bit was interesting! Reckon Martin's a lurker?
<<The truth, however, is that performance has always been a part of the tradition, even if only in small intimate settings where only a few, or even one, was listening – or even if nobody was listening. I believe that to play the music is to perform it – you respond to circumstances, whether it be in front of a large audience or privately for oneself. I don’t think that the ultimate purity comes from ignoring the circumstances or ignoring the audience as a distorting influence, but rather that there is an artistic lack of integrity in not trying to reach toward the listener.>>
Depressed to see that the ignoble tradition of quoting out of context is alive and well from Ionannas on thesesson.org
Here's a good one: "people like my father, Peter O’Loughlin, Martin Rochford and Paddy Canny. They didn’t even say ‘good’ or ‘bad’, they said right or wrong!" ha ha
And the quote from Ionannas, in the context of non-performance music, should of course have included the caveat:
"I did organise sessions in Chicago when I lived there. I would get people together to play at whatever level suited them, and usually I found that the lowest level was the best level to play at. I got people into a kind of communion, and I became very engaged in the concept of community, in the concept of people feeling united in their music. I was very concerned that we didn’t get too caught up in trying to make it the highest musical experience possible. It could get there. Sometimes it would get there for just five minutes a night."
And there's a good one here for Mr tradpiper: "If you play ‘bad’ music, and you don’t know the difference between it and good, then you’re doing fine."
But I don't want to be too negative. There is hope for everyone and if Jig can appreciate this quote it sure would do him some good:
"My talking about musical aspirations does not necessarily reflect where I am as a musician. These are things that I believe in. These are things that I aspire to. These are things that I very, very often do not achieve and these are things that maybe in my lifetime, I won’t achieve."
Funny, but that excerpt about performing music is exactly what I *don't* like about his playing. Give me less hair tossing and swoopy dynamics any day.
Yes, it's an interesting quote (though why ionnass didn't chastise him for opening it with, "the truth is" we'll never know)
I like it that Martin Hayes forces himself to think about what he's doing at a very deep level. It's very interesting and good on him. And every performer should do that, you owe it to your audience.
Will's comment makes me remind myself of my days as a performer, I tossed my long hair about a lot too. However, I had a personal problem in that I knew I didn't really like performing, but I liked playing music. Martin Hayes reconciles this very neatly by believing that there is no such thing as non-performance music and this, on balance, is probably a good thing for a professional performer. It allows his music the honesty that what he gives is all there is to give. His "truth" is that there is "an artistic lack of integrity in not trying to reach toward the listener". And this is what makes him a good performer.
And conversely, because it's not my "truth", it's what made me a bad performer. So I gave it up.
What I can fathom is the long hair? Why on earth have this mop of stuff that just gets in yr way! Hair tossing is pretty essential for long haired people. I suppose maybe Im just envious being half bald Get a hair cut Martin
llig its not out of context, its a complete paragraph.
But why focus on two quite superficial mannerisms that are completely irrelevant to what he is talking about? He is talking about his focus in his playing and how by focusing so completely on his music, that this zen like concentration and focus transforms the dynamics of the group relationship between him and the others in the room/audience. He connects with the music and so the audience can connect to him through the music. This way its a personal relationship between him and the others through the music.Perhaps you simply cant understand this as its so far from your own experience?I suggest you read zen and the art of Archery , and perhaps take up a zen daoist Art, study that for a decade or so and you might gain some insight.
>>Having found that fate had cast me in a situation of earning my income as a musician, I decided to play the music that meant something to me. I felt some level of guilt around the whole issue of performance as a profession, believing that there was very little of it in our tradition and that it had, in some respects, a distorting influence. I grappled with that.
The truth, however, is that performance has always been a part of the tradition, even if only in small intimate settings where only a few, or even one, was listening – or even if nobody was listening. I believe that to play the music is to perform it – you respond to circumstances, whether it be in front of a large audience or privately for oneself. I don’t think that the ultimate purity comes from ignoring the circumstances or ignoring the audience as a distorting influence, but rather that there is an artistic lack of integrity in not trying to reach toward the listener. >>
I understand what he's saying completely. An it's an interesting journey. I understand that for him to continue as a performer he had to reconcile his guilt. And he did this in a very neat way. But I said all this above, you just typically never bloody read it.
And the point about the hair is that it's not a mere superficial mannerism. It's part and parcel of the performance. I'm not knocking the hair thing, you are. He's an excellent performer,
while on the subject of hair tossing, I'd just say that most of the public describes going to a musical performance with the words "we went to SEE ....."
the whole visual schtick is important. Big moppy hair and puffy sleeves go over bigger than a balding old fella in a t-shirt
Quite right. And Martin Hayes does not only know this, but deliberately cultivate it to his advantage. And to suggest otherwise is a drastic underestimation of the man's well-honed performance skills.
So you think hes such a famous fiddler because of his hair style and puffy sleeves?! LOL not because hes an amazing player rooted in the tradition who makes an effort to communicate with and inspire the other people around him... yes thats it of course, its his hair style...
what I said was that the visual part of it matters. But I won't stop there, I'll get off at the depot...
when you combine a really good player with a really good "act" (which could include possibly puffy sleeves, or some other gimick) THEN you have something
why do you think Michael Coleman danced while he played? because it was Vaudville and THAT was an ACT! you get some guy playing like that and dancing up a storm, who wouldn't pay to see it?
and stuff like that can set a performer apart from the rest, which also helps the bookings, which means more money
but if it was just moppy hair and puffy sleeves we could all go down to the wig shop and be live on stage in Toronto next week
Damn, I was really hoping, was looking on ebay for a martin Hayes wig and sequinned puffy shirt! and some tap shoes for to dance a jig while I play.... Ah well, best stick with the half bald look then.. sigh.
Sometimes I think Mr. Hayes thinks too much, which is probably why his last record took so many years to appear....
He is indeed a fine person to play with in a session (which I had the opportunity to do once), very generous, blends in with everyone, a real gentleman.
It is funny how he comments on the hair tossing, which I always found annoying, but I guess, like many people who frequent this site, I am more into the music than the theatrics of a performance.
As soon as I saw that 'performance' comment, I knew someone was going to key in on it--leave it to Ionannas to stir things up!
Martin Hayes's last record took so long to appear because he was embroiled in an extremely lengthy legal dispute with his then label Green Linnet - it has nothing to do with his cogitational processes!
Of course, the "performance" issue on this website is whether, in a session context, the non-musician listeners should play a part, and whether the musicians should acknowledge it.
And what Martin Hayes says on the subject is completely irrelevant.
And of course, if you have any integrity and want to play music professionnaly, you have to think about it a heck of a lot, to decide what you want to do and how it reflects on the things you want to respect.
(err... I mean that, whether quoting the estimable M. Hayes in context or out, you cannot use his words on the subject of "performance" to bring new weight to the argument about whether session-music is a performance - unless, like some members, you enjoy setting up strawmen)
I disagree, it is of the utmost relevance
>>I don’t think that the ultimate purity comes from ignoring the circumstances or ignoring the audience as a distorting influence, but rather that there is an artistic lack of integrity in not trying to reach toward the listener.>>
That is his opinion, it is relevant whether he is performing on stage or just playing a few tunes in a session, or for that matter sitting in with Tulla [ Ceilidh band]
''I believe that to play the music is to perform it –''
The thing is, we all have different experiences of sessions, I sit in session in Rural Ireland , with locals who know everyone in the pub, were they to get airs and graces or act superior they would be quickly brought back to reality.
If someone's experience of sessions is a big city in a foreign country , big commercial sessions with drunk punters no one knows then they may have a very different viewpoint.
The kind of places I like to session there simply is no division between player and audience, it is a social occasion where everyone is involved more or less. Were a stranger to walk in silence would fall as we all look to the door, but within 5 minutes they would likely be involved in the craic and banter.
Even in big City pubs back in the 80's when I first started sessioning everyone wanted to be involved in the happening, when the music is really buzzing it draws all sorts of people in, To deliberately turn your back on other human beings who approach you looking to become involved is the height of rudeness. Why do it? What possible motivation could there be to diss a friendly approach?
OK Im very intolerant of drunks drooling on my shoulder or breathing their whisky breath in my face, but as long as they dont invade my space and are genuine then of course they are welcome.
Here's the part that could be aimed at the Mustard Board:
"In many ways, the question of authenticity then becomes a personal one in which you have to do your best to balance these various ethical matters. I’ve often felt that in previous debates regarding traditional music people didn’t truly understand the life experience and dilemmas that are involved in navigating these choices, and that judgments of musicians in these situations can be overly simplistic and sometimes unnecessarily harsh."
In other words, Martin has bills to pay, like anybody else. As he points out, he became a professional musician because he didn't have much choice, at the time. If hair tossing helps put food on the table, that's fine with me. We still get some very good music out of it.
My take on Zen and the Art of Archery: The kindly Japanese tried to help the author to let go of his ego and relax--and thereby attain a natural mastery, without all the extra baggage--but he (a dutiful German) persisted in working as hard as he could at it, in his usual dogmatic way. He just didn't get it.
Interestingly, Martin plays and behaves very differently in a non-gig session from when he's on stage doing a concert.
I suspect (based just on my own anecdotal experience) that people who primarily play this music in informal, casual (though no less serious about the music) sessions tend to downplay the performance aspects to the degree that those aspects no longer exist or exert any influence on the player's relationship with the other people in the room, other players and non-players alike.
But people who earn a living from performing this music tend to look at things from a performer's perspective, even when they're in a session. After all, they have a reputation to uphold, fans to consider, and potential fans to win over. And they're simply conditioned by years of performing experience to *perform.*
I find great freedom in playing this music just for the sake of playing this music. That's just my opinion, not an argument against Hayes' sense of why and how he plays the music. In fact, I would be very surprised if the attitudes and perspectives of a professional full-time performer and an amateur session player were similar at all. They're two very different approaches to playing this music.
Probably right there ML, but Im still curious about what is actually done differently? Say in the example you mention, Martin, what does he actually DO differently?
Im also dubious about this whole session/punter dichotomy. The us and them of it all, I prefer to see us all as US, we are all involved in the activity, those who just listen, those who try to ignore the music and concentrate on the conversation, still have no choice but to partake of the soundwaves moving the air, those playing, those dancing, those enjoying the ambiance etc etc. Why create or encourage a barrier, separation, between us? What benefit is to be gained?
I certainly understand your point about playing the music just for the sake of the music, thats all I have ever done so Im totally with you there, but still I agree with Martin that to play is to perform, even though my performance consists entirely of just playing!
I understand the reluctance to countenance 'showboating' and perhaps all we need to do to get agreement is to define our meanings clearly? That in fact we are maybe just 'tilting at shadows'?
This whole 'performance' debate is kind of like the zombie monster of The Session website, it just keeps crawling from the grave to lurch around and frighten young children! Speaking of zombies, I saw a trailer for a new movie, and the actor Woody Harrelson was using a banjo as a zombie killing weapon. Reminds me of a thread that we had on which instruments made the best weapons...wonder if some Hollywood writer was lurking on The Session, and got some ideas!
From my admittedly limited experience of the man, Mr. Hayes limits his hair tossing and vast dynamic swoops to the stage. When he plays in a casual session, he's less dramatic, in both his outward physical responses to the music and in his playing of the tune itself. In short, he blends in with the other players, in sound and appearance. It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that Hayes distinguishes, then, between his performance on stage and his behavior in a session. Maybe he still thinks of both as "performances" (per his statements in the JOM article), but what he gains from that isn't at all clear to me. Llig's stab at explaining it seems plausible--people who perform this music for a living have to find a way to reconcile the "cognitive dissonance" of commercializing something so intensely personal. If it were me, I would try the tack that Tommy Peoples and Paddy Glackin seem to have chosen--compartmentalizing the two--knowing precisely when you're packaging the music for sale, and when you're simply playing it for the sake of playing the music.
In contrast, I strongly prefer to simply play music and enjoy the craic in a session. It's much easier to feel the people in the room become US (as Ion cites above), instead of dividing between musicians and audience. And then it's a very cozy communal potluck where everyone's an active participant, instead of a presentation from performers to a largely passive audience.
(I enjoy performing to an audience, too, and I do just that occasionally. Just not at sessions.)
Al, your zombie analogy made me laugh, but I don't see "performance" and "dots" as the walking dead at all. For me, they are two of the more lively and fundamentally alive topics left to us on this web site. By that I mean that they are highly relevant to the life of sessions as we know them, as new people continually are drawn to this music and to the sessions we all play in. Perhaps more than any other concepts, these two and their ramifications directly influence the quality of real world sessions.
Ok, thinking about it that makes me think of some 'classical' violinists and gypsy fiddlers, lots of show and perhaps virtuosity displays of dazzling technique. Theatrics I would term it myself.
Yes well I would certainly agree there is little space for that kind of thing at sessions, you'd likely spill someone's pint as you did the flick hair./intense look/ head-bang manoeuvre or the stare into distance while playing three octave leaps in tenths during the masons apron 16th part variation with bells on...
Yes, theatrics play well from the stage--they help to engage the audience, sitting at some remove from the performer. But in a cozy interpersonal session, such theatrics (and even milder forms) come across as unnecessary and flamboyant at best and domineering at worst. This is why some of us are leery of players who sit in at a session with an air of performance about them. It's not just about whether they showboat or not, but how their *intent* (to draw yours and other's attention to their own playing, rather than simply blend in) then affects the session. Just as an example, a performer may launch into a tune that doesn't flow well from the previous tune, his choice being influenced more by a desire to "wake up the punters" or "show the publican that we're worth a free round." Fine if everyone in the circle is of the same mind, but it's no longer playing music for the sake of playing music. Not my cuppa tea in a session setting.
But it leaves us to wonder, eh, why Mr. Hayes would blur the distinction between performing on stage and playing in a session by using one word to describe these two distinct activities with their different intents.
I think it's clearer (or less ambiguous) to use the two words (performance and session) to distinguish between performances and sessions based on the different intentions I've outlined above. That way you don't get performers at sessions and sessioners at performances. Neither situation is appropriate or very conducive to the collective fun.
Martin Hayes in the JOM
Martin Hayes in the JOM
http://journalofmusic.com/article/217
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Thank you for that link. What a wonderful article.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by kris
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
LOL, Classic Article, Martin is the Man!
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
This bit was interesting! Reckon Martin's a lurker?
<<The truth, however, is that performance has always been a part of the tradition, even if only in small intimate settings where only a few, or even one, was listening – or even if nobody was listening. I believe that to play the music is to perform it – you respond to circumstances, whether it be in front of a large audience or privately for oneself. I don’t think that the ultimate purity comes from ignoring the circumstances or ignoring the audience as a distorting influence, but rather that there is an artistic lack of integrity in not trying to reach toward the listener.>>
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Thanks, I really enjoyed this read. Lots of food for thought here.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by flossie
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Depressed to see that the ignoble tradition of quoting out of context is alive and well from Ionannas on thesesson.org
Here's a good one: "people like my father, Peter O’Loughlin, Martin Rochford and Paddy Canny. They didn’t even say ‘good’ or ‘bad’, they said right or wrong!" ha ha
And the quote from Ionannas, in the context of non-performance music, should of course have included the caveat:
"I did organise sessions in Chicago when I lived there. I would get people together to play at whatever level suited them, and usually I found that the lowest level was the best level to play at. I got people into a kind of communion, and I became very engaged in the concept of community, in the concept of people feeling united in their music. I was very concerned that we didn’t get too caught up in trying to make it the highest musical experience possible. It could get there. Sometimes it would get there for just five minutes a night."
And there's a good one here for Mr tradpiper: "If you play ‘bad’ music, and you don’t know the difference between it and good, then you’re doing fine."
But I don't want to be too negative. There is hope for everyone and if Jig can appreciate this quote it sure would do him some good:
"My talking about musical aspirations does not necessarily reflect where I am as a musician. These are things that I believe in. These are things that I aspire to. These are things that I very, very often do not achieve and these are things that maybe in my lifetime, I won’t achieve."
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Funny, but that excerpt about performing music is exactly what I *don't* like about his playing. Give me less hair tossing and swoopy dynamics any day.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Yes, it's an interesting quote (though why ionnass didn't chastise him for opening it with, "the truth is" we'll never know)
I like it that Martin Hayes forces himself to think about what he's doing at a very deep level. It's very interesting and good on him. And every performer should do that, you owe it to your audience.
Will's comment makes me remind myself of my days as a performer, I tossed my long hair about a lot too. However, I had a personal problem in that I knew I didn't really like performing, but I liked playing music. Martin Hayes reconciles this very neatly by believing that there is no such thing as non-performance music and this, on balance, is probably a good thing for a professional performer. It allows his music the honesty that what he gives is all there is to give. His "truth" is that there is "an artistic lack of integrity in not trying to reach toward the listener". And this is what makes him a good performer.
And conversely, because it's not my "truth", it's what made me a bad performer. So I gave it up.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
What I can fathom is the long hair? Why on earth have this mop of stuff that just gets in yr way! Hair tossing is pretty essential for long haired people. I suppose maybe Im just envious being half bald
Get a hair cut Martin 
llig its not out of context, its a complete paragraph.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
yep, a complete paragraph out of context
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
But why focus on two quite superficial mannerisms that are completely irrelevant to what he is talking about? He is talking about his focus in his playing and how by focusing so completely on his music, that this zen like concentration and focus transforms the dynamics of the group relationship between him and the others in the room/audience. He connects with the music and so the audience can connect to him through the music. This way its a personal relationship between him and the others through the music.Perhaps you simply cant understand this as its so far from your own experience?I suggest you read zen and the art of Archery , and perhaps take up a zen daoist Art, study that for a decade or so and you might gain some insight.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
>>Having found that fate had cast me in a situation of earning my income as a musician, I decided to play the music that meant something to me. I felt some level of guilt around the whole issue of performance as a profession, believing that there was very little of it in our tradition and that it had, in some respects, a distorting influence. I grappled with that.
The truth, however, is that performance has always been a part of the tradition, even if only in small intimate settings where only a few, or even one, was listening – or even if nobody was listening. I believe that to play the music is to perform it – you respond to circumstances, whether it be in front of a large audience or privately for oneself. I don’t think that the ultimate purity comes from ignoring the circumstances or ignoring the audience as a distorting influence, but rather that there is an artistic lack of integrity in not trying to reach toward the listener. >>
In context now?
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
I understand what he's saying completely. An it's an interesting journey. I understand that for him to continue as a performer he had to reconcile his guilt. And he did this in a very neat way. But I said all this above, you just typically never bloody read it.
And the point about the hair is that it's not a mere superficial mannerism. It's part and parcel of the performance. I'm not knocking the hair thing, you are. He's an excellent performer,
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
while on the subject of hair tossing, I'd just say that most of the public describes going to a musical performance with the words "we went to SEE ....."
the whole visual schtick is important. Big moppy hair and puffy sleeves go over bigger than a balding old fella in a t-shirt
just sayin'
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Quite right. And Martin Hayes does not only know this, but deliberately cultivate it to his advantage. And to suggest otherwise is a drastic underestimation of the man's well-honed performance skills.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
"the whole visual schtick is important. Big moppy hair and puffy sleeves go over bigger than a balding old fella in a t-shirt"
I take it you're not a Christy Moore fan.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ballynabill
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
So you think hes such a famous fiddler because of his hair style and puffy sleeves?! LOL not because hes an amazing player rooted in the tradition who makes an effort to communicate with and inspire the other people around him... yes thats it of course, its his hair style...
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
I'm surprised Jig's still posting as I thought he'd be up in Sligo for this - http://www.irishcentral.com/travel/Sligo-to-host-World-Air-Fiddle-Championships-65770337.html.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
don't be an idiot
what I said was that the visual part of it matters. But I won't stop there, I'll get off at the depot...
when you combine a really good player with a really good "act" (which could include possibly puffy sleeves, or some other gimick) THEN you have something
why do you think Michael Coleman danced while he played? because it was Vaudville and THAT was an ACT! you get some guy playing like that and dancing up a storm, who wouldn't pay to see it?
and stuff like that can set a performer apart from the rest, which also helps the bookings, which means more money
but if it was just moppy hair and puffy sleeves we could all go down to the wig shop and be live on stage in Toronto next week
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Damn, I was really hoping, was looking on ebay for a martin Hayes wig and sequinned puffy shirt! and some tap shoes for to dance a jig while I play.... Ah well, best stick with the half bald look then.. sigh.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
hell, I'd pay to see that...have a go at it anyway, you never know!
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Sometimes I think Mr. Hayes thinks too much, which is probably why his last record took so many years to appear....
He is indeed a fine person to play with in a session (which I had the opportunity to do once), very generous, blends in with everyone, a real gentleman.
It is funny how he comments on the hair tossing, which I always found annoying, but I guess, like many people who frequent this site, I am more into the music than the theatrics of a performance.
As soon as I saw that 'performance' comment, I knew someone was going to key in on it--leave it to Ionannas to stir things up!
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Martin Hayes's last record took so long to appear because he was embroiled in an extremely lengthy legal dispute with his then label Green Linnet - it has nothing to do with his cogitational processes!
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
And here I thought he was just fussy about what it sounded like!
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Of course, the "performance" issue on this website is whether, in a session context, the non-musician listeners should play a part, and whether the musicians should acknowledge it.
And what Martin Hayes says on the subject is completely irrelevant.
And of course, if you have any integrity and want to play music professionnaly, you have to think about it a heck of a lot, to decide what you want to do and how it reflects on the things you want to respect.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Tirno
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
(err... I mean that, whether quoting the estimable M. Hayes in context or out, you cannot use his words on the subject of "performance" to bring new weight to the argument about whether session-music is a performance - unless, like some members, you enjoy setting up strawmen)
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Tirno
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
I disagree, it is of the utmost relevance
>>I don’t think that the ultimate purity comes from ignoring the circumstances or ignoring the audience as a distorting influence, but rather that there is an artistic lack of integrity in not trying to reach toward the listener.>>
That is his opinion, it is relevant whether he is performing on stage or just playing a few tunes in a session, or for that matter sitting in with Tulla [ Ceilidh band]
''I believe that to play the music is to perform it –''
The thing is, we all have different experiences of sessions, I sit in session in Rural Ireland , with locals who know everyone in the pub, were they to get airs and graces or act superior they would be quickly brought back to reality.
If someone's experience of sessions is a big city in a foreign country , big commercial sessions with drunk punters no one knows then they may have a very different viewpoint.
The kind of places I like to session there simply is no division between player and audience, it is a social occasion where everyone is involved more or less. Were a stranger to walk in silence would fall as we all look to the door, but within 5 minutes they would likely be involved in the craic and banter.
Even in big City pubs back in the 80's when I first started sessioning everyone wanted to be involved in the happening, when the music is really buzzing it draws all sorts of people in, To deliberately turn your back on other human beings who approach you looking to become involved is the height of rudeness. Why do it? What possible motivation could there be to diss a friendly approach?
OK Im very intolerant of drunks drooling on my shoulder or breathing their whisky breath in my face, but as long as they dont invade my space and are genuine then of course they are welcome.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Here's the part that could be aimed at the Mustard Board:
"In many ways, the question of authenticity then becomes a personal one in which you have to do your best to balance these various ethical matters. I’ve often felt that in previous debates regarding traditional music people didn’t truly understand the life experience and dilemmas that are involved in navigating these choices, and that judgments of musicians in these situations can be overly simplistic and sometimes unnecessarily harsh."
In other words, Martin has bills to pay, like anybody else. As he points out, he became a professional musician because he didn't have much choice, at the time. If hair tossing helps put food on the table, that's fine with me. We still get some very good music out of it.
My take on Zen and the Art of Archery: The kindly Japanese tried to help the author to let go of his ego and relax--and thereby attain a natural mastery, without all the extra baggage--but he (a dutiful German) persisted in working as hard as he could at it, in his usual dogmatic way. He just didn't get it.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Interestingly, Martin plays and behaves very differently in a non-gig session from when he's on stage doing a concert.
I suspect (based just on my own anecdotal experience) that people who primarily play this music in informal, casual (though no less serious about the music) sessions tend to downplay the performance aspects to the degree that those aspects no longer exist or exert any influence on the player's relationship with the other people in the room, other players and non-players alike.
But people who earn a living from performing this music tend to look at things from a performer's perspective, even when they're in a session. After all, they have a reputation to uphold, fans to consider, and potential fans to win over. And they're simply conditioned by years of performing experience to *perform.*
I find great freedom in playing this music just for the sake of playing this music. That's just my opinion, not an argument against Hayes' sense of why and how he plays the music. In fact, I would be very surprised if the attitudes and perspectives of a professional full-time performer and an amateur session player were similar at all. They're two very different approaches to playing this music.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
all right - who buried this topic in an ancient Micmac burial ground?
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by airport
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Probably right there ML, but Im still curious about what is actually done differently? Say in the example you mention, Martin, what does he actually DO differently?
Im also dubious about this whole session/punter dichotomy. The us and them of it all, I prefer to see us all as US, we are all involved in the activity, those who just listen, those who try to ignore the music and concentrate on the conversation, still have no choice but to partake of the soundwaves moving the air, those playing, those dancing, those enjoying the ambiance etc etc. Why create or encourage a barrier, separation, between us? What benefit is to be gained?
I certainly understand your point about playing the music just for the sake of the music, thats all I have ever done so Im totally with you there, but still I agree with Martin that to play is to perform, even though my performance consists entirely of just playing!
I understand the reluctance to countenance 'showboating' and perhaps all we need to do to get agreement is to define our meanings clearly? That in fact we are maybe just 'tilting at shadows'?
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
This whole 'performance' debate is kind of like the zombie monster of The Session website, it just keeps crawling from the grave to lurch around and frighten young children! Speaking of zombies, I saw a trailer for a new movie, and the actor Woody Harrelson was using a banjo as a zombie killing weapon. Reminds me of a thread that we had on which instruments made the best weapons...wonder if some Hollywood writer was lurking on The Session, and got some ideas!
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
From my admittedly limited experience of the man, Mr. Hayes limits his hair tossing and vast dynamic swoops to the stage. When he plays in a casual session, he's less dramatic, in both his outward physical responses to the music and in his playing of the tune itself. In short, he blends in with the other players, in sound and appearance. It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that Hayes distinguishes, then, between his performance on stage and his behavior in a session. Maybe he still thinks of both as "performances" (per his statements in the JOM article), but what he gains from that isn't at all clear to me. Llig's stab at explaining it seems plausible--people who perform this music for a living have to find a way to reconcile the "cognitive dissonance" of commercializing something so intensely personal. If it were me, I would try the tack that Tommy Peoples and Paddy Glackin seem to have chosen--compartmentalizing the two--knowing precisely when you're packaging the music for sale, and when you're simply playing it for the sake of playing the music.
In contrast, I strongly prefer to simply play music and enjoy the craic in a session. It's much easier to feel the people in the room become US (as Ion cites above), instead of dividing between musicians and audience. And then it's a very cozy communal potluck where everyone's an active participant, instead of a presentation from performers to a largely passive audience.
(I enjoy performing to an audience, too, and I do just that occasionally. Just not at sessions.)
Al, your zombie analogy made me laugh, but I don't see "performance" and "dots" as the walking dead at all. For me, they are two of the more lively and fundamentally alive topics left to us on this web site. By that I mean that they are highly relevant to the life of sessions as we know them, as new people continually are drawn to this music and to the sessions we all play in. Perhaps more than any other concepts, these two and their ramifications directly influence the quality of real world sessions.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Ok, thinking about it that makes me think of some 'classical' violinists and gypsy fiddlers, lots of show and perhaps virtuosity displays of dazzling technique. Theatrics I would term it myself.
Yes well I would certainly agree there is little space for that kind of thing at sessions, you'd likely spill someone's pint as you did the flick hair./intense look/ head-bang manoeuvre or the stare into distance while playing three octave leaps in tenths during the masons apron 16th part variation with bells on...
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Yes, theatrics play well from the stage--they help to engage the audience, sitting at some remove from the performer. But in a cozy interpersonal session, such theatrics (and even milder forms) come across as unnecessary and flamboyant at best and domineering at worst. This is why some of us are leery of players who sit in at a session with an air of performance about them. It's not just about whether they showboat or not, but how their *intent* (to draw yours and other's attention to their own playing, rather than simply blend in) then affects the session. Just as an example, a performer may launch into a tune that doesn't flow well from the previous tune, his choice being influenced more by a desire to "wake up the punters" or "show the publican that we're worth a free round." Fine if everyone in the circle is of the same mind, but it's no longer playing music for the sake of playing music. Not my cuppa tea in a session setting.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Fair enough , I can imagine anyone like that would get short thrift around here! and some funny looks too..
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
it's "short shriff", dude...just like the Irish used to get. Look it up.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
Yep, same here.
But it leaves us to wonder, eh, why Mr. Hayes would blur the distinction between performing on stage and playing in a session by using one word to describe these two distinct activities with their different intents.
I think it's clearer (or less ambiguous) to use the two words (performance and session) to distinguish between performances and sessions based on the different intentions I've outlined above. That way you don't get performers at sessions and sessioners at performances. Neither situation is appropriate or very conducive to the collective fun.
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Martin Hayes in the JOM
that's short shrift, with a 't'.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by prestonian