I have an inexpensive Fender mandolin that, other than the problem I’m about to describe, is perfectly fine for now, it sounds decent, and plays decent. The G on the 5th fret of the D string is flat. I have the open strings tuned pitch perfect, but playing the low G and the octave up on the D string, you can hear it’s definitely flat. It’s not overly apparent playing solo but in a session may be a bit more apparent. Can anyone suggest simple things I can check that may be causing this? It’s annoying me more and more, and unfortunately I can’t afford to look at new instruments right now.
This happened with a cheap rental fiddle I used a few years ago. The problem was the string, not the fiddle; I seem to have gotten a bum string whose thickness wasn't uniform. Have you tried a different D string? (And, since this is a mandolin - do both D strings have this problem?)
I wondered about that. I assume you mean the placement of the bridge on the body? Is it also possible that an uneven action is the culprit, that is, one side of the bridge lower than the other?
I think the thing I'm worried about the most is if there is an issue with the neck, like it's bowed or something. That would make me sad. I will check the bridge, thanks for the suggestion. I'm surpised I didn't think of that.
It is very common for PacRim mandolins to have their bridges in the wrong place. It is OK if one side is higher, but if the bridge is not at the precise place for the scale of the fretboard, you will have bad intonation.
Basically you have to play the harmonic at the twelfth fret and then fret the instrument. Theoretically both notes should be the same. If they are not, you have to move the bridge, towards the nut for a flat note, away for a sharp note. Check the G and the E strings. The bridge is supposed to be compensated for standard strings, but usually is not. Do the best you can.
String gage sometimes causes poor intonation, but most of the time it is the placement of the bridge.
If you are noting flat at the fifth fret, most likely your bridge is too far away from the nut. If you are queasy about messing with the bridge, show it to a luthier and he or she can fix it for you.
Mandolins are notorious for not being set up properly from the factory and many are shipped with the bridge off and they are set up at the music store. By the janitor.
I had a similar problem with an octave mandolin I owned once but on the A strings. Nothing worked until I changed to a heavier string gauge. I don't know why it worked but this solved the problem for me.
That makes perfect sense. It was set up at a guitar shop, where they are used to dealing with fixed bridges. I'm sure I can handle the adjustments you are talking about.
If all else fails Jimmy, you could take your baby down to Walt Kuhlman at Gypsy Music in Scottsdale. He can do a set up for you. He builds his own stringed instruments. Also - they have good set up people at Milano's music in Mesa and at the String Shop on Rural Rd in Tempe. Good Luck, and gimme a shout next time you're headed to the local session!
Sounds like intonation to me, adjust the bridge until the twelfth fret on each string is in tune the same as the open string. Sometimes this will work if the bridge is straight, other times it'll work if the bridge is slightly at an angle.
Also, does your bridge have set indendations? i.e. a different indent for each string?
It occurs to me that one problem might be fret wear, another might be a nut adjustment issue, a third might be worn strings.
To check the first, just pull the strings sideways slightly, and examine the frets.
To check the second, capo the instrument at the first fret and try playing a scale up the fingerboard again. Is there now a tuning issue at the new 5th fret ? Is the new 12th fret a pure octave from the open string ? Try this whole exercise again with the capo at the 2nd fet, the 3rd, etc., as far as you can take this, ensuring the instrument is fully in tune with itself, by judicious use of a tuner, before you start each time.
Assuming the intonation is correct, I can't see how this would show up on the D string, from my experience it is the A and G strings where compensation is applied at the bridge, to give the heavier plain wire and covered pairs a little extra length. Of course the whole bridge needs to be slanted slightly to give longer bass strings anyway, and all of these accuracies should be demonstrable with a good tuner.
Mandolin Problem
Mandolin Problem
I have an inexpensive Fender mandolin that, other than the problem I’m about to describe, is perfectly fine for now, it sounds decent, and plays decent. The G on the 5th fret of the D string is flat. I have the open strings tuned pitch perfect, but playing the low G and the octave up on the D string, you can hear it’s definitely flat. It’s not overly apparent playing solo but in a session may be a bit more apparent. Can anyone suggest simple things I can check that may be causing this? It’s annoying me more and more, and unfortunately I can’t afford to look at new instruments right now.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
This happened with a cheap rental fiddle I used a few years ago. The problem was the string, not the fiddle; I seem to have gotten a bum string whose thickness wasn't uniform. Have you tried a different D string? (And, since this is a mandolin - do both D strings have this problem?)
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Mandolin Problem
I don't have it with me at the moment, but I don't think so, I don't recall hearing the warbling you usually get with a course out of tune.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
Check the bridge placement, if it's crooked or out of the sweet spot you'll get intonation issues.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by gravelwalks
Re: Mandolin Problem
I wondered about that. I assume you mean the placement of the bridge on the body? Is it also possible that an uneven action is the culprit, that is, one side of the bridge lower than the other?
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
Jimmy - where are you in AZ? I sent you an e-mail.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Mandolin Problem
JNE,
I got your email. Thank you. I'm sure we'll run into one another sooner or later. Cheers.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
I think the thing I'm worried about the most is if there is an issue with the neck, like it's bowed or something. That would make me sad. I will check the bridge, thanks for the suggestion. I'm surpised I didn't think of that.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
Check to make sure your saddle isn't turned around. A common mistake in restringing that gives intonation problems.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Mandolin Problem
Jimmy,
It is very common for PacRim mandolins to have their bridges in the wrong place. It is OK if one side is higher, but if the bridge is not at the precise place for the scale of the fretboard, you will have bad intonation.
Basically you have to play the harmonic at the twelfth fret and then fret the instrument. Theoretically both notes should be the same. If they are not, you have to move the bridge, towards the nut for a flat note, away for a sharp note. Check the G and the E strings. The bridge is supposed to be compensated for standard strings, but usually is not. Do the best you can.
String gage sometimes causes poor intonation, but most of the time it is the placement of the bridge.
If you are noting flat at the fifth fret, most likely your bridge is too far away from the nut. If you are queasy about messing with the bridge, show it to a luthier and he or she can fix it for you.
Mandolins are notorious for not being set up properly from the factory and many are shipped with the bridge off and they are set up at the music store. By the janitor.
For more information go to http://www.mandolincafe.com
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by mikeyes
Re: Mandolin Problem
I had a similar problem with an octave mandolin I owned once but on the A strings. Nothing worked until I changed to a heavier string gauge. I don't know why it worked but this solved the problem for me.
Good Luck.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by jimtowat
Re: Mandolin Problem
That makes perfect sense. It was set up at a guitar shop, where they are used to dealing with fixed bridges. I'm sure I can handle the adjustments you are talking about.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
If all else fails Jimmy, you could take your baby down to Walt Kuhlman at Gypsy Music in Scottsdale. He can do a set up for you. He builds his own stringed instruments. Also - they have good set up people at Milano's music in Mesa and at the String Shop on Rural Rd in Tempe. Good Luck, and gimme a shout next time you're headed to the local session!
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Mandolin Problem
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious:- "This happened with a cheap rental fiddle I used a few years ago."
If the intonation is out on a fiddle, your fingers need adjusting.
As for the mandolin, as others have said, it almost certinly just needs a minor brige/saddle adjustment.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by skreech
Re: Mandolin Problem
Will do JNE. Thanks all for the input, I feel confident I'll get it solved. I'm looking forward to this evening.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
I don't know one end of a mandolin from another, but what a smashing, heartwarming thread we have here!
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Mandolin Problem
For true. If thought something was amiss. Is everyone feeling well?
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
"I" thought something was amiss. Yeah, like my fingers.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Mandolin Problem
Steve: the one with the turny things is the head end. The one with the round, wide part is the body end.
You're welcome.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Mandolin Problem
Sounds like intonation to me, adjust the bridge until the twelfth fret on each string is in tune the same as the open string. Sometimes this will work if the bridge is straight, other times it'll work if the bridge is slightly at an angle.
Also, does your bridge have set indendations? i.e. a different indent for each string?
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Beanstalk
Re: Mandolin Problem
It occurs to me that one problem might be fret wear, another might be a nut adjustment issue, a third might be worn strings.
To check the first, just pull the strings sideways slightly, and examine the frets.
To check the second, capo the instrument at the first fret and try playing a scale up the fingerboard again. Is there now a tuning issue at the new 5th fret ? Is the new 12th fret a pure octave from the open string ? Try this whole exercise again with the capo at the 2nd fet, the 3rd, etc., as far as you can take this, ensuring the instrument is fully in tune with itself, by judicious use of a tuner, before you start each time.
Assuming the intonation is correct, I can't see how this would show up on the D string, from my experience it is the A and G strings where compensation is applied at the bridge, to give the heavier plain wire and covered pairs a little extra length. Of course the whole bridge needs to be slanted slightly to give longer bass strings anyway, and all of these accuracies should be demonstrable with a good tuner.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Guernsey Pete