Hope you might check out the new site aimed at beginners to intermediate whistle players, beamed live today from Dingle, Co. Kerry, Ireland. And let us know what you think about it. Many Thanks, John Ryan.
www.tinwhistlelessons.com
Well you're obviously not a beginner then and you appear not to know anything about the requirements of beginners who have no previous experience of playing a tin whistle. Best wishes, John
I think there's something more important than having no previous experience of playing a tin whistle. And that is having experience of what good tin whistle playing sounds like.
Tin whistle lessons.com is an example of an opportunist , exploiting peoples ignorance and ultimately you are out for a fast buck mate. Thre are many resources, far superior to yours for free.. Your reluctance to engage with "Advanced" players automatically deflects the real criticisms that are inherant and can be made of both -this site and - your intentions.. Its not your fault. Ultimately we are all slaves. So I say crack you musical whip. Exploit the music to your own ends. go on so
Well thanks for making all my points for me. Firstly, yes there are many opportunities to hear good tin whistle playing. And then you show no understanding of what you call "people's ignorance". There are many people who don't play music at all, have had no encouragement and are willing to pay for a good service. If you look into this site a little more closely you will see that is exactly what it offers. Best regards, John
My issue was that when I navigated to www.tinwhistlelessons.com it asked me to clear an applet asking for "unrestricted access to my computer." Not cool...why was that happening?
That's a fair point about the Applet. It depends on your security settings. But there's no harm in it! It allows you to record yourself that's all. John
My tradlessons site really isn't for brand new players. I started it as an online replacement for the local weekly "tune swap" we used to have on a night when there wasn't a session in town.
For brand new players learning whistle, I'd refer them first to Ryan Duns and his great tutorials on YouTube and elsewhere.
Just my view and you did ask for people to comment on your site / venture
Makin money is obviously the main motivator for you, whether you offer value for money is another thing...I'm sure some gullable customer will find out soon enough...
If I considered that your main motivation was for the love of the music and teaching, my view might be different, but the emphasis I think in this case is mostly for quick financial gain
for you, its money for old rope when you think about it... really...it's going to cost someone say 300-400 euros + to learn what 40 tunes with you and it's basic playing at that, with no ornamentation
Most of you missed the really egregious issue with the site: The playing is out of tune. Well, perhaps that is not the worst thing. I appreciate the fact that someone wants to help others learn the whistle, and respect his right to ask for money to do so. But I think the product needs much improvement musically even without the issue of ITM style.
I find it funny that you enjoyed learning to play the whistle, for me its an ongoing process for over 30 years and I'm still learning.
Maybe I'm being a bit picky, but the tunes don't sound like they are being played by someone who I would like to teach me if I was only starting out.
Would it not be a good idea to play something at the correct speed on your website so that people can judge if you are the right type of whistler for them
I'm tickled by the thought of someone learning from this web-site and then going out for a tune. They introduce themselves as a beginner and the company welcome them in and ask what tunes they know?
"I have The Sally Gardens" says the beginner.
"A grand tune, away you go then. Your own pace. We"ll join in" says the host.
Well I'm impressed to have received so much comment. Thanks guys. Well I say guys as the comments all seem typically male and of course I won't argue with any of you. But I deliberately crossed a boundary with www.tinwhistlelessons.com. Fed up with the cliques that tend to dominate the Irish music scene (many of them not even living in Ireland) and the assumption that people who can't play are somehow ignorant, or gullible I have set up a site where anyone can learn to play the tin whistle. I have been taught by Mary Bergin, Seán Ryan, Carmel Gunning, Peter Phelan, Gavin Whelan, Niall Keagan, Brian Finnegan and many others. I am a regular (and respected) player in the Dingle sessions. No one has to pay anything on this site unless they want to opt for a personal lesson. And beginners will appreciate the accessibility of the music and the genuine character of the host. As you all say so clearly, there are countless other opportunities for punters to see how good you all are. Best regards, John
John, You asked for opinions and got a bit of a deserved mauling.
There are a couple of things your web site needs.
You say you've been taught by all those good players? Get a quote or two from them to put on your home page. Something along the lines of, "I taught John and he has has an excellent understanding of the music etc etc and is well placed to pass on that knowledge".
Then get some quotes from people you have taught. And link to recordings of them playing.
Finally, you need at least one recording of yourself playing your best.
Anyone who signs up for your lessons without these would be an idiot.
PS, complaining that someone has less right to the music just because they don't live in Ireland is as bad as someone complaining that you have less right to it because you are English.
To explain my comment. Rathlin Bog is a consistent 30 cents flat, with just a few high notes reaching only 15 cents flat. And It sounds quite jolly plaid at twice and three times the tempo...
Yes, I agree with Llig that you should put decent recordings up. Playing them that slow is fine and well for total beginners but they need to know what the tune really sounds like.
The problem you may face with people who can already play, when advertising on a site like this, is that the net and especially youtube is full of people who are basic players at best putting up 'tutorial' videos basically to massage their egos - especially with whistle.
He is not the first whistler earning a few quid in return for a service.
I certainly don't get all hot and bothered and cross when I go to my fiddle class and tin whistle class on a Thursday and .....Believe it or not I PAY for it - wow a shock!
As regards the playing, the tunes are slow for beginners. No problem. Although, a note of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism perhaps ALSO playing the tunes with full ornamentation and speed would also guide the beginner to where they wish to end up.
Good luck to you John, we all have to earn a crust somehow!
Yes Richrua, that IS what others were suggesting, ALSO putting up recordings so the learner can hear what the tune sounds like. For a beginner only to learn from the realllly slow version is as much a handicap as experienced players using 'amazing' slow down software.
It's hard to believe that anyone interested in learning whistle would use one website as a single source, so I don't see a problem either.
And even if they do, and even if they go to a session with a slow mechanical version of the ballad Sally Gardens as their only tune, and even if some dim sessioneer was expecting to hear the reel Sally Gardens at a decent speed and is subsequently shocked and embarrassed for the poor novice whistler, it's hardly the end of the world and could be the start of a wonderful journey.
I don't see anything unethical about charging for lessons either - most musicians I know have done it at one time or another.
Linking on here to a website that is also selling lessons isn't too bad either, if said website also has some free resources. I don't think that's unique on here.
I agree Bren. I remember when I first played a tune at a session. It was a particularly bad and painful and slow Kesh Jig. But I still played it. We all have to start somewhere!
Again, I have to say thanks to everyone. One point I can address is that the whole idea of the slow recordings is YES, to encourage beginners to opt for a personal lesson. (Yes I can do that!) They then receive a full guide to playing the tune and send in their own recording which I personally assess before returning a better quality recording based on their ability I find it never helped a total beginner to show them how good you really are!. But thanks for all your views, I think it's great that you have all responded.
Well, I've been sticking up for you, but you're sounding like a sales pitch now John
Hard to avoid when promoting oneself, and with you having put a lot of work in I understand your enthusiasm to get the message out, but it can be off-putting, so counter productive for you anyway, and to a level not really appropriate in this forum, and I'm saying that because sales is a part of my work. Keep the sales pitch for your website and use this forum to exchange ideas.
Remember that the forum is set up and maintained at no cost to us by a private individual because of his love for music, so any sales pitch, no matter how worthy, dilutes and pollutes the forum
"I find it never helped a total beginner to show them how good you really are!."
Do you mean you found it never helped or you find it never helps?
Let your students be the judge of that. And let's hear from them. To be successful, your endeavour requires third party confirmation that you are up the job.
I note from the website that you "started to play the tin whistle about 14 years ago" (home page) and that you "have only played the tin whistle since 1997" (buried in the site).
Hmmm ... exaggerating for marketing purposes, no doubt.
Apart from that, that has to be the most smug, self-satisfied website of its kind that I've come across.
And of course, this whole thread is a sales pitch. That's probably the main thing that people don't like.
Letting a beginner hear an up to speed recording with ornamentation and variation as well as the slow recording is not "...to show them how good you really are!." ...it's to show how the tune should or can sound.
If that "cloth ears" was aimed at me domnull what I meant was that it is badly biased. I ran it through a tuner and the needle was flickering around -30 the way it usually flickers around a lot nearer to zero.
"I find it never helped a total beginner to show them how good you really are"
Huh??? The most important thing in the world for beginners is to listen listen listen listen to tunes played as they should be played. The only way to play this music is to get it into your head and heart and that's by listening to good or at least decent players. Sure, you can slow down a tune so people can learn it more easily but it's even more important that people know what it sounds like at full speed with ornamentation. I admit I am guilty of using Amazing Slow Downer to learn tunes (I swear, Bogman and Michael, I am getting off it and these days use it more for its playback capabilities than its slow down ones, since looping part of a track on iTunes is a bloody hassle). You're not protecting beginners from being intimidated by your abilities when you don't play them the tune up to speed, you deprive them of hearing your "normal" interpretation of the tune. No one will get better without knowing, intimately, what this music should sound like.
Secondly, if I was looking for a tutor I'd want to know that they could play . When I started learning the pipes I took loads of lessons and you can be damned sure that I'd heard all my assorted teachers in full flight before I approached them and asked for a wee lesson. I knew f*ck all about the pipes then but could distinguish between good playing and sh*te. Hearing good players didn't intimidate me into not wanting to play (haha... mediocre sessions can do that) but served as an ever moving goal post. You need to know where you're going as you practice, regardless whether you've been playing five days, five years, or five months.
So if I were going to take the time to email you about your tutorial, I'd want to hear your playing. If your playing wasn't on your website for all to see, then I just wouldn't bothered emailing, especially not when there are other online whistle tutors who do present their playing to the world.
I just checked Rathlin Bog again. I find playing an untuneable whistle as flat as that doable but hard to control. I'm sure someone with good breath control trying to play slowly and carefully would do it better. But not a beginner I think.
It's a very nice goal to help others, and there's nothing wrong with making a living from teaching. That said...
Kerry polka - not really in a standard key, now is it? Also, it's a bit, um, athsmatic. Your beginners will eventually be speeding up their tunes - will they be doing that sort of not-tonguing, wheezy articulation when they do? Most whistle players I've heard (and my own playing) wouldn't stop the airstream so much, and would certainly do it differently if they did... I notice this got a little better later. Yeah, pitch. Some people's whistles won't even be able to match this. I'm not sure I could really get an idea of the rhythm of the tune from most of these examples (esp. Sheep in the Boat).
When I'm working with private students, or the kids in my ceili band, I tend to use these resources:
if they really feel like buying a book... I think one of the main differences here is that you actually get to hear what the tunes sound like, yet they're accessible.
Prolly if you fix the pitches and put some recordings up at real speed, you'll have a useable resource. It's a good start
Wow, John, you got pretty lit up on this thread. Personally, as a fledgling whistler myself, I'm going to stick to learning on my own, by ear, being as patient as my personality will allow and doing alot of watching and listening at my local session and taking pointers, along with the slings and arrows. Isn't that how I'm supposed to do it?
Where did the link to the John's site go? From what I can remember looking at it earlier, I was more struck by the aesthetics of it more than anything---the colour scheme made the text hard to read, and the absolute page positioning meant I had to scroll to the right just to see everything on the page. A peek at the source code showed that the pages were created using some kind of Microsoft application like Word, which made sense, because translating a page from Word to HTML always creates thousands of lines of unnecessary code that never works very well anyway. I would recommend re-doing the site using a proper web application, and re-thinking the colour scheme and layout of the pages. That pretty picture is so tiny you can hardly see it, for instance.
As for the musical aspect, I agree with others that there should be examples of the tunes played at full tempo. Llig's suggestion of recommendations is a good one, especially since you're trying to get people to pay for your services.
I think you can also do a better job of describing the service itself. How does it work, exactly? People record their playing, send it to you, and you send back a critique and hints on playing it better? Is it a one-time shot, or do they get to send you the improved version to see how well they incorporated your advice? And send it again when they've worked on it some more? Is there a give-and-take with questions that they can ask if they don't understand something you say? There has to be a limit on how much they can ask from you, obviously, but you should be very clear on what they can expect.
Yes, Kennedy, I thought that, too. I absolutely hate having to scroll back and forth just read each sentence. I thought it looked rather amateur-ish. I listened to one tune, The "Rathlin Bog" and thought is sounded like the page looked...
I have thought about learning the whistle, but that site did nothing for me.
Having read all the comments on this thread, a few more comments of my own:
1. I may well add a recording of myself playing on my bio page.
2. Yes I used absolute page positioning because this is the first time I designed a website. You can always adjust your Zoom in or Out so that it fits on the page.
3. I think the tuning is ok. Whistle players should all know how to tune a whistle. If the head is stuck on just dip it in hot water and tune.
4. I'm interested in getting people who don't play to start playing. Through experience I believe in my methods and will continue with them.
5. How can anyone seriously think that this is the work of an Egomaniac?
6. I welcome your comments and take them all on board. However, as I never thought of any of you guys as being potential customers this was hardly a marketing exercise.
John, I didn't say it was the work of an egomaniac but by showing you can play to teaching standard then we would know the site is not ego driven like many online tutorials.
Re: 3. - Yes whistle players should know how to tune a whistle, especially if they aim to teach it.
Quote from John "I never thought of any of you guys as being potential customers this was hardly a marketing exercise".
How would you define a marketing exercise?? Don't you think there are any beginner whistler's here?
You have taken a bit of a slating on this thread but I suppose there is no such thing as bad publicity, at least if you improve your site there will possibly be people watching in the wings.
Maybe its just "Rathlin Island". Audacity, Tartini, the downloadable Sayuku8 tuner and my Korg tuner reckon its 30 cents flat and I have to play very very gently to stay in tune with the recording. I often have Sayuku8.exe running when listening to music on the internet - good for cheating when trying to find a starting note.
"Yes I used absolute page positioning because this is the first time I designed a website. You can always adjust your Zoom in or Out so that it fits on the page."
Since this is your first time designing a website, I will give you a few tips (I've been doing this about 10 years myself):
1. Never rely on your customers to adjust their browsers to see your site better. They won't---they'll go elsewhere and you'll lose them forever. Change your pages so that they never need to scroll to the right. Ask a programmer for help if you can't do it yourself. Maybe you can trade whistle lessons for programming help!
2. Your color scheme profoundly affects whether people will enjoy your site. In your case, that bright blue background with the white text is headache-inducing---and leaves after-images when looking from one of your pages to anything else, kind of like what you see after a camera flashes directly in your eyes. It's very unpleasant, and you'll lose business. The easiest sites to read have dark text on a light background---black on light yellow (like this site), navy on light blue, black on white, etc.
3. Read up on website navigation (your links are all over the place and you need consistency, among other things):
4. Do something with that picture. It's too small and it doesn't relate to anything else on the page. Is that you playing? If you're going to put a picture of yourself on your site, make it big enough so people can see what you look like.
I could go on, but as wyogal mentioned earlier, the look of your site will (negatively) influence the way people perceive you, so it's worth your time to do some research on web design and page layout.
OK I'll trust you ear rather than the numbers on the dial Bogman. I find it hard to play with, which is why I ran it though the tuner. Its not long since I made a determined effort to sort out my tuning on whistle by playing along with such things (I gave up and moved to flute) so what I am saying to John is "I think a beginner will find that hard". My hunch is he is playing very gently and so coming out a bit flat.
I would not dream of commenting on overall intonation. Some well respected players make the needle on the dial go to very strange places. I assume that they are doing what they intend to do.
But for me just add another row of buttons with the tunes played as you like to play them. I'll probably wont ask for lessons but I'll go there whenever I am scouting round for a range of recordings of tunes I am learning and if they are good other people will do the same, pass the word on and the site will get better known.
Out or curiosity I've just tried to look at www.tinwhistlelessons.com to see (and hear) for myself what all the fuss was about. Immediately, these security messages appeared in a window in my browser:
"The application's digital signature cannot be verified. Do you want to run the application? The digital signature cannot be verified by a trusted source. Only run if you trust the source of the application."
And, under "More Information" were these warnings:
"This application will be run without the security restrictions normally provided by Java.
The digital signature was generated with an untrusted certificate."
Then followed technical information about the Certificate Details.
Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Hope you might check out the new site aimed at beginners to intermediate whistle players, beamed live today from Dingle, Co. Kerry, Ireland. And let us know what you think about it. Many Thanks, John Ryan.
www.tinwhistlelessons.com
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by tinwhistletutor
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
skipping throeh the "play" buttons, I don't think I've ever heard anything that sounds less like Irish music
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
through
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Well you're obviously not a beginner then and you appear not to know anything about the requirements of beginners who have no previous experience of playing a tin whistle. Best wishes, John
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by tinwhistletutor
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
I think there's something more important than having no previous experience of playing a tin whistle. And that is having experience of what good tin whistle playing sounds like.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Tin whistle lessons.com is an example of an opportunist , exploiting peoples ignorance and ultimately you are out for a fast buck mate. Thre are many resources, far superior to yours for free.. Your reluctance to engage with "Advanced" players automatically deflects the real criticisms that are inherant and can be made of both -this site and - your intentions.. Its not your fault. Ultimately we are all slaves. So I say crack you musical whip. Exploit the music to your own ends. go on so
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Well thanks for making all my points for me. Firstly, yes there are many opportunities to hear good tin whistle playing. And then you show no understanding of what you call "people's ignorance". There are many people who don't play music at all, have had no encouragement and are willing to pay for a good service. If you look into this site a little more closely you will see that is exactly what it offers. Best regards, John
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by tinwhistletutor
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
My issue was that when I navigated to www.tinwhistlelessons.com it asked me to clear an applet asking for "unrestricted access to my computer." Not cool...why was that happening?
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Upsetter
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
That's a fair point about the Applet. It depends on your security settings. But there's no harm in it! It allows you to record yourself that's all. John
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by tinwhistletutor
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
OK pal.. Your here to sell a product.. and its not a particularly good one.. Well agree to disagree on this one
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
heres an interesting link for all you beginners that John has decided need led by the hand.. www.tradlessons.com
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
and another great one .. www.whistletutor.com
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
did I make all your points for u this time?
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
My tradlessons site really isn't for brand new players. I started it as an online replacement for the local weekly "tune swap" we used to have on a night when there wasn't a session in town.
For brand new players learning whistle, I'd refer them first to Ryan Duns and his great tutorials on YouTube and elsewhere.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
To the OP
Just my view and you did ask for people to comment on your site / venture
Makin money is obviously the main motivator for you, whether you offer value for money is another thing...I'm sure some gullable customer will find out soon enough...
If I considered that your main motivation was for the love of the music and teaching, my view might be different, but the emphasis I think in this case is mostly for quick financial gain
for you, its money for old rope when you think about it... really...it's going to cost someone say 300-400 euros + to learn what 40 tunes with you and it's basic playing at that, with no ornamentation
Not a great bang for the buck IMO
pkev
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by pkev
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Most of you missed the really egregious issue with the site: The playing is out of tune. Well, perhaps that is not the worst thing. I appreciate the fact that someone wants to help others learn the whistle, and respect his right to ask for money to do so. But I think the product needs much improvement musically even without the issue of ITM style.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by cboody
Hello Mr. Ryan. Welcome aboard.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Random_notes
http://www.tinwhistlelessons.com/
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
I find it funny that you enjoyed learning to play the whistle, for me its an ongoing process for over 30 years and I'm still learning.
Maybe I'm being a bit picky, but the tunes don't sound like they are being played by someone who I would like to teach me if I was only starting out.
Would it not be a good idea to play something at the correct speed on your website so that people can judge if you are the right type of whistler for them
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Fournes
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
I'm tickled by the thought of someone learning from this web-site and then going out for a tune. They introduce themselves as a beginner and the company welcome them in and ask what tunes they know?
"I have The Sally Gardens" says the beginner.
"A grand tune, away you go then. Your own pace. We"ll join in" says the host.
http://www.tinwhistlelessons.com/Tin%20Whistle%20Online(1)/The%20Sally%20Gardens.mp3
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
And using a whistle at A=440 would help as well.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by david_h
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Well I'm impressed to have received so much comment. Thanks guys. Well I say guys as the comments all seem typically male and of course I won't argue with any of you. But I deliberately crossed a boundary with www.tinwhistlelessons.com. Fed up with the cliques that tend to dominate the Irish music scene (many of them not even living in Ireland) and the assumption that people who can't play are somehow ignorant, or gullible I have set up a site where anyone can learn to play the tin whistle. I have been taught by Mary Bergin, Seán Ryan, Carmel Gunning, Peter Phelan, Gavin Whelan, Niall Keagan, Brian Finnegan and many others. I am a regular (and respected) player in the Dingle sessions. No one has to pay anything on this site unless they want to opt for a personal lesson. And beginners will appreciate the accessibility of the music and the genuine character of the host. As you all say so clearly, there are countless other opportunities for punters to see how good you all are. Best regards, John
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by tinwhistletutor
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
John, You asked for opinions and got a bit of a deserved mauling.
There are a couple of things your web site needs.
You say you've been taught by all those good players? Get a quote or two from them to put on your home page. Something along the lines of, "I taught John and he has has an excellent understanding of the music etc etc and is well placed to pass on that knowledge".
Then get some quotes from people you have taught. And link to recordings of them playing.
Finally, you need at least one recording of yourself playing your best.
Anyone who signs up for your lessons without these would be an idiot.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
PS, complaining that someone has less right to the music just because they don't live in Ireland is as bad as someone complaining that you have less right to it because you are English.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
To explain my comment. Rathlin Bog is a consistent 30 cents flat, with just a few high notes reaching only 15 cents flat. And It sounds quite jolly plaid at twice and three times the tempo...
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by david_h
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Yes, I agree with Llig that you should put decent recordings up. Playing them that slow is fine and well for total beginners but they need to know what the tune really sounds like.
The problem you may face with people who can already play, when advertising on a site like this, is that the net and especially youtube is full of people who are basic players at best putting up 'tutorial' videos basically to massage their egos - especially with whistle.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
cloth-ears !
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by domnull
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
...mine should have come *before* Bogman's post!
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by domnull
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
I don't see the problem.
He is not the first whistler earning a few quid in return for a service.
I certainly don't get all hot and bothered and cross when I go to my fiddle class and tin whistle class on a Thursday and .....Believe it or not I PAY for it - wow a shock!
As regards the playing, the tunes are slow for beginners. No problem. Although, a note of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism perhaps ALSO playing the tunes with full ornamentation and speed would also guide the beginner to where they wish to end up.
Good luck to you John, we all have to earn a crust somehow!
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by richrua
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Yes Richrua, that IS what others were suggesting, ALSO putting up recordings so the learner can hear what the tune sounds like. For a beginner only to learn from the realllly slow version is as much a handicap as experienced players using 'amazing' slow down software.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
It's hard to believe that anyone interested in learning whistle would use one website as a single source, so I don't see a problem either.
And even if they do, and even if they go to a session with a slow mechanical version of the ballad Sally Gardens as their only tune, and even if some dim sessioneer was expecting to hear the reel Sally Gardens at a decent speed and is subsequently shocked and embarrassed for the poor novice whistler, it's hardly the end of the world and could be the start of a wonderful journey.
I don't see anything unethical about charging for lessons either - most musicians I know have done it at one time or another.
Linking on here to a website that is also selling lessons isn't too bad either, if said website also has some free resources. I don't think that's unique on here.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Bren
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
That's fair play Bren but the addition of up to speed samples seems very sensible to me.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
I agree Bren. I remember when I first played a tune at a session. It was a particularly bad and painful and slow Kesh Jig. But I still played it. We all have to start somewhere!
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by richrua
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Also that would let us now if the originator if fit to put his lessons up on the world wide web of if he is just yet another egomanic.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Again, I have to say thanks to everyone. One point I can address is that the whole idea of the slow recordings is YES, to encourage beginners to opt for a personal lesson. (Yes I can do that!) They then receive a full guide to playing the tune and send in their own recording which I personally assess before returning a better quality recording based on their ability I find it never helped a total beginner to show them how good you really are!. But thanks for all your views, I think it's great that you have all responded.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by tinwhistletutor
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Well, I've been sticking up for you, but you're sounding like a sales pitch now John
Hard to avoid when promoting oneself, and with you having put a lot of work in I understand your enthusiasm to get the message out, but it can be off-putting, so counter productive for you anyway, and to a level not really appropriate in this forum, and I'm saying that because sales is a part of my work. Keep the sales pitch for your website and use this forum to exchange ideas.
Remember that the forum is set up and maintained at no cost to us by a private individual because of his love for music, so any sales pitch, no matter how worthy, dilutes and pollutes the forum
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Bren
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
"I find it never helped a total beginner to show them how good you really are!."
Do you mean you found it never helped or you find it never helps?
Let your students be the judge of that. And let's hear from them. To be successful, your endeavour requires third party confirmation that you are up the job.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
I note from the website that you "started to play the tin whistle about 14 years ago" (home page) and that you "have only played the tin whistle since 1997" (buried in the site).
Hmmm ... exaggerating for marketing purposes, no doubt.
Apart from that, that has to be the most smug, self-satisfied website of its kind that I've come across.
And of course, this whole thread is a sales pitch. That's probably the main thing that people don't like.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Letting a beginner hear an up to speed recording with ornamentation and variation as well as the slow recording is not "...to show them how good you really are!." ...it's to show how the tune should or can sound.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
If that "cloth ears" was aimed at me domnull what I meant was that it is badly biased. I ran it through a tuner and the needle was flickering around -30 the way it usually flickers around a lot nearer to zero.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by david_h
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
"I find it never helped a total beginner to show them how good you really are"
Huh??? The most important thing in the world for beginners is to listen listen listen listen to tunes played as they should be played. The only way to play this music is to get it into your head and heart and that's by listening to good or at least decent players. Sure, you can slow down a tune so people can learn it more easily but it's even more important that people know what it sounds like at full speed with ornamentation. I admit I am guilty of using Amazing Slow Downer to learn tunes (I swear, Bogman and Michael, I am getting off it and these days use it more for its playback capabilities than its slow down ones, since looping part of a track on iTunes is a bloody hassle). You're not protecting beginners from being intimidated by your abilities when you don't play them the tune up to speed, you deprive them of hearing your "normal" interpretation of the tune. No one will get better without knowing, intimately, what this music should sound like.
Secondly, if I was looking for a tutor I'd want to know that they could play . When I started learning the pipes I took loads of lessons and you can be damned sure that I'd heard all my assorted teachers in full flight before I approached them and asked for a wee lesson. I knew f*ck all about the pipes then but could distinguish between good playing and sh*te. Hearing good players didn't intimidate me into not wanting to play (haha... mediocre sessions can do that) but served as an ever moving goal post. You need to know where you're going as you practice, regardless whether you've been playing five days, five years, or five months.
So if I were going to take the time to email you about your tutorial, I'd want to hear your playing. If your playing wasn't on your website for all to see, then I just wouldn't bothered emailing, especially not when there are other online whistle tutors who do present their playing to the world.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
I just checked Rathlin Bog again. I find playing an untuneable whistle as flat as that doable but hard to control. I'm sure someone with good breath control trying to play slowly and carefully would do it better. But not a beginner I think.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by david_h
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
It's a very nice goal to help others, and there's nothing wrong with making a living from teaching. That said...
Kerry polka - not really in a standard key, now is it? Also, it's a bit, um, athsmatic. Your beginners will eventually be speeding up their tunes - will they be doing that sort of not-tonguing, wheezy articulation when they do? Most whistle players I've heard (and my own playing) wouldn't stop the airstream so much, and would certainly do it differently if they did... I notice this got a little better later. Yeah, pitch. Some people's whistles won't even be able to match this. I'm not sure I could really get an idea of the rhythm of the tune from most of these examples (esp. Sheep in the Boat).
When I'm working with private students, or the kids in my ceili band, I tend to use these resources:
http://www.tunesforpractice.com/
essential, also
http://www.greylarsen.com/store/books.php or
http://celticgrooves.homestead.com/CG_Book_Cranitch_Fiddle.html
if they really feel like buying a book... I think one of the main differences here is that you actually get to hear what the tunes sound like, yet they're accessible.
Prolly if you fix the pitches and put some recordings up at real speed, you'll have a useable resource. It's a good start
T.J. - http://www.cdbaby.com/ogham
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
What's all this talk of Rathlin Bog! There's no such tune!
What you mean is this:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/583
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Wow, John, you got pretty lit up on this thread. Personally, as a fledgling whistler myself, I'm going to stick to learning on my own, by ear, being as patient as my personality will allow and doing alot of watching and listening at my local session and taking pointers, along with the slings and arrows. Isn't that how I'm supposed to do it?
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Phew, just checked, that's a relief, it's not my mistake. Well, to start with anyway.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by david_h
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Where did the link to the John's site go? From what I can remember looking at it earlier, I was more struck by the aesthetics of it more than anything---the colour scheme made the text hard to read, and the absolute page positioning meant I had to scroll to the right just to see everything on the page. A peek at the source code showed that the pages were created using some kind of Microsoft application like Word, which made sense, because translating a page from Word to HTML always creates thousands of lines of unnecessary code that never works very well anyway. I would recommend re-doing the site using a proper web application, and re-thinking the colour scheme and layout of the pages. That pretty picture is so tiny you can hardly see it, for instance.
As for the musical aspect, I agree with others that there should be examples of the tunes played at full tempo. Llig's suggestion of recommendations is a good one, especially since you're trying to get people to pay for your services.
I think you can also do a better job of describing the service itself. How does it work, exactly? People record their playing, send it to you, and you send back a critique and hints on playing it better? Is it a one-time shot, or do they get to send you the improved version to see how well they incorporated your advice? And send it again when they've worked on it some more? Is there a give-and-take with questions that they can ask if they don't understand something you say? There has to be a limit on how much they can ask from you, obviously, but you should be very clear on what they can expect.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Yes, Kennedy, I thought that, too. I absolutely hate having to scroll back and forth just read each sentence. I thought it looked rather amateur-ish. I listened to one tune, The "Rathlin Bog" and thought is sounded like the page looked...
I have thought about learning the whistle, but that site did nothing for me.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by wyogal
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
http://www.drostdesigns.com/operating-system-platform-testing-how-to-test-your-web-site-on-different-operating-system-platforms/
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Having read all the comments on this thread, a few more comments of my own:
1. I may well add a recording of myself playing on my bio page.
2. Yes I used absolute page positioning because this is the first time I designed a website. You can always adjust your Zoom in or Out so that it fits on the page.
3. I think the tuning is ok. Whistle players should all know how to tune a whistle. If the head is stuck on just dip it in hot water and tune.
4. I'm interested in getting people who don't play to start playing. Through experience I believe in my methods and will continue with them.
5. How can anyone seriously think that this is the work of an Egomaniac?
6. I welcome your comments and take them all on board. However, as I never thought of any of you guys as being potential customers this was hardly a marketing exercise.
Best regards, John
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by tinwhistletutor
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
John, I didn't say it was the work of an egomaniac but by showing you can play to teaching standard then we would know the site is not ego driven like many online tutorials.
Re: 3. - Yes whistle players should know how to tune a whistle, especially if they aim to teach it.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
though the tuning of the clips is not bad, certainly not 30 cents flat or anything like it.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Quote from John "I never thought of any of you guys as being potential customers this was hardly a marketing exercise".
How would you define a marketing exercise?? Don't you think there are any beginner whistler's here?
You have taken a bit of a slating on this thread but I suppose there is no such thing as bad publicity, at least if you improve your site there will possibly be people watching in the wings.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Twiz
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Maybe its just "Rathlin Island". Audacity, Tartini, the downloadable Sayuku8 tuner and my Korg tuner reckon its 30 cents flat and I have to play very very gently to stay in tune with the recording. I often have Sayuku8.exe running when listening to music on the internet - good for cheating when trying to find a starting note.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by david_h
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Don't know David, it is a touch flat but nowhere near 30 cents - that more than a quarter tone.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by bogman
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
"Yes I used absolute page positioning because this is the first time I designed a website. You can always adjust your Zoom in or Out so that it fits on the page."
Since this is your first time designing a website, I will give you a few tips (I've been doing this about 10 years myself):
1. Never rely on your customers to adjust their browsers to see your site better. They won't---they'll go elsewhere and you'll lose them forever. Change your pages so that they never need to scroll to the right. Ask a programmer for help if you can't do it yourself. Maybe you can trade whistle lessons for programming help!
2. Your color scheme profoundly affects whether people will enjoy your site. In your case, that bright blue background with the white text is headache-inducing---and leaves after-images when looking from one of your pages to anything else, kind of like what you see after a camera flashes directly in your eyes. It's very unpleasant, and you'll lose business. The easiest sites to read have dark text on a light background---black on light yellow (like this site), navy on light blue, black on white, etc.
3. Read up on website navigation (your links are all over the place and you need consistency, among other things):
http://graphicdesign.about.com/od/effectivewebsites/a/web_navigation.htm
http://www.mardiros.net/good-navigation.html
4. Do something with that picture. It's too small and it doesn't relate to anything else on the page. Is that you playing? If you're going to put a picture of yourself on your site, make it big enough so people can see what you look like.
I could go on, but as wyogal mentioned earlier, the look of your site will (negatively) influence the way people perceive you, so it's worth your time to do some research on web design and page layout.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
OK I'll trust you ear rather than the numbers on the dial Bogman. I find it hard to play with, which is why I ran it though the tuner. Its not long since I made a determined effort to sort out my tuning on whistle by playing along with such things (I gave up and moved to flute) so what I am saying to John is "I think a beginner will find that hard". My hunch is he is playing very gently and so coming out a bit flat.
I would not dream of commenting on overall intonation. Some well respected players make the needle on the dial go to very strange places. I assume that they are doing what they intend to do.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by david_h
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Kennedy is probably right.
But for me just add another row of buttons with the tunes played as you like to play them. I'll probably wont ask for lessons but I'll go there whenever I am scouting round for a range of recordings of tunes I am learning and if they are good other people will do the same, pass the word on and the site will get better known.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by david_h
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Oo-er! I hadn't listened until now. What's the point of putting up a website with stuff that sounds so bloody awful?
I'm interested in the motivation. Honestly. It can't be for gain. Nobody would be stupid enough to pay for this.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
www.kazoolessons.com
Good for both diatonic and chromatic kazoo players.
$19.95 per month.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist. Long live the competent whistle players! God knows I'm not one of them.
# Posted on October 9th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Tin Whistle Lessons Online
Out or curiosity I've just tried to look at www.tinwhistlelessons.com to see (and hear) for myself what all the fuss was about. Immediately, these security messages appeared in a window in my browser:
"The application's digital signature cannot be verified. Do you want to run the application? The digital signature cannot be verified by a trusted source. Only run if you trust the source of the application."
And, under "More Information" were these warnings:
"This application will be run without the security restrictions normally provided by Java.
The digital signature was generated with an untrusted certificate."
Then followed technical information about the Certificate Details.
I did not indulge my curiosity any further.
# Posted on October 10th 2009 by lazyhound