There have been similar discussions to this in the past. Last week, for instance, but this related to a band situation.
We would probably all agree that as far as bodhrans and guitars are concerned, one or two is probably enough in an average session but what about other instruments? Do you feel supported if there are others there playing the same instrument as yourself or can this be a hindrance? People sometimes suggest I go to such and such a place because there are mandolin players there. However, I don't see this as any great advantage as I'd just as soon play the tune along with fiddlers, whistles etc. Another mandolin player may have a different style to me, in any case. Perhaps, we could do something specific or clever together or share a few tips but that's not really the point of a session--or at least, it would be a different kind of session.
On the other hand, there is probably room for more fiddlers, flute/whistle players and the like as I feel they can blend together much better. Of course, if it's one of these really huge sessions you can get away with a lot more of everything and maybe anything goes!
John,
I was at a session (just listening) in Dublin last night where there were SEVEN fiddles.
Five of the fiddlers seemed to be there to learn and so were playing "sottovoce".
The overall sound though was actually pretty good.
Anyway I would have thought that a session was the very place to swap ideas and combine sounds unless it's a paid gig.
you can have more than one fiddle and same with flutes - but you dont want it sounding like a Scottish fiddle orchestra. So no more than 3 fiddles, no more than 2 flutes, 1 button box or concertina (both at the same time can work as well) , bazouki, guitar, bodhran (depending how tasteful the player is) and 1 banjo & def not more than one set of Uillean pipes. No spoons, shakey eggs, bongos, djembes, didjeridoos or anything else that could be classed as annoying.
Combinations are a really useful thing to wear at a session. If too may bodhrans arrive, or six flutes, you can escape through the trapdoor in the back.
I think a room of freedom opens up when I play with fiddlers at my own level or above. You can have more fun trying out different twists and the occational harmony.
Also I enjoy playing with pipers.Playing with a speedy and crazy piper inspires me all the way down to the left hand finger bones, - I can just sit there "listening in" and hear my fingers join in on them rolls. ....
I recently visited Belfast, where there was the luxury of two pipers at many sessions. They sure blended in nicely.
I wouldn't want to be the only flute player at a session.I almost never play my whistle in sessions because it's so shrill.Probably if I had a better one it would sound better( mine's just a waltons).
I like it if there are flute or whistle players so if I'm learning a tune I can peek at their fingers if I get stuck.I know it's cheating,but it helps me.
Anyway, as long as there's at least one flute player,and no more than two bodrans and two guitars,the rest doesn't really matter to me.I do like the pipes,though.
Hey Seisflutes - looking at peoples fingers is in *no* way cheating. I do it all the time - if I havent played a tune for years but I know it and just cant get it then its fantastic if there is a fiddle player who is also playing the tune. It can be a big help. No cheating is when people bring music stands into sessions
I don't even know about that, bb. Is there such a thing as "cheating"? Surely the end result is the sound that comes out...oh, and the craic with the people, of course. I think people should be able to do without music and stands...eventually, but I wouldn't call them cheats. Synthesisers is cheating, maybe.
In sessions I like to keep an eye on a good fiddle player near me so that I can be aware of the patterns of finger and bow movement. It's a great help with tunes I don't know well - that's most of them Cheating? Of course not, it's part of the natural learning process. The pupil/learner/improver tries to copy what the skilled player is doing.
Trevor
I wouldn't call bringing sheet music into sessions cheating but I think it's a waste of time as by the time you've found the music, the others have probably moved on a further few tunes. It's easier just to play what you can by ear or sit out in that particular tune. Of course, if it was a very slow moving session where you played exactly the same sets each week, you could maybe manage to get your music organised. However, the best sessions are not like that and you shouldn't necessarily expect one tune to follow the other.
Looking at fingers is OK, although I usually only do it if I haven't immediately worked out the key of the tune. Again, things are probably moving too fast and it's probably better to let your ears work for you.
I know one or two fine session musicians who wouldn't dream of playing from the dots, but what they sometimes do is to have a little notebook with just the first bar or two of the tunes to remind themselves. This is all to do with recall rather than memory.
I believe this business of recall and memory was discussed some time ago, but basically the trouble is we can often know and play a tune as soon as someone else starts it off, but as for starting it ourselves from cold, that can be quite another matter!
Trevor
Trev - I've seen people doing that, with the notebook. It's good idea.
John - One guy I know does that, ie rummaging around till he gets the right page open, often 2-thirds the way through the tune. Shame cos he's a nice player (and a nice guy). I've suggested he photocopies the tunes then staples together the photocopies of the ones that he knows we play as sets. So far he hasn't done that though.
Interesting reading what other people say about looking at other players' fingers. My lad and I play some of the duets in the Northumbrian Pipers society duet book, and I find that I can play best when I can see his finger movements, even if I can't hear him well.
Northumbrian Pipers society duet book - my dad had a tune in that - if it's the same book - Mrs Mona Cameron who was my granny - surely can't be the same book?
Looking at another player's fingers is no different from an orchestral musician watching the conductor's baton - only the orchestral musician has to read the dots at the same time. I very often play with my eyes closed, and I find the best way to keep time in a noisy session is to listen to somebody else's foot-tapping. Box players tend to stomp the loudest.
I usually watch what everyone else is playing, picking up their timing and everything. In an unfocussed sort of way! But it seems to come out in synch with what's going on. But that's a drummer's perspective \())
To the theme of the thread - as far as I can make out, the people who tolerate an Irish Session in their pub like it to have bass and treble going on i.e. a guitar and/or bodhr
You guys are right - there is no *cheating* obviously -as it is not an exam. Its a waste of time bringing music to sessions I think because as said before by the time you actually find the tune the session has probably moved on. And how are you supposed to get better if you constantly rely on the music even in sessions? We all started out wearing those floaties around our arms when learning to swim here in australia but you hardly ever see an adult swimmer wearing them. (well actually never see adults wearing them and if you did you'd probably wet yourself laughing)
It is as important to watch as to listen - especially when playing a duet with someone at the other end of the room.
I was doing that last night and a "Sone Age" type came in and stood in the middle of the room for 5 minutes deciding whether his coat was wet and should he take it off or sit down first. He eventually decided to go to the bar with his coat on.
Ever wished you had X-Ray vision like Superman? - it would have been as bad with a skeleton in the middle of the room.
I was at a session last year in Stockport that consisted of over thirty musicians, including some big names. At the end of the evening, several bods were raving about how brilliant it was. I couldn't agree. The sound was too big and changed depending on were you stood in the room. I had a crap seat in between two accordian players. Thirty players and I could only hear accordians. What is the ideal number (not combination) of players?
For me, 7-10 players, with no one instrument overwhelming the rest. So, a couple fiddles, couple flutes, a box, a piper, a guitar and/or bouzouki, a bodhran, one of whatever else...to me, you can't beat that.
Well, Martin, consider yourself lucky. It could have been the tambourine!
6-8 is a nice amount but as said - not too many of the one type of instrument. Martinm - 30 muso's and stuck between two accordians? sounds like my worst nightmare
I was once in a pub in the middle of nowhere ( somewhere vaguely in the region of Drogheda, if I remember rightly). The evening happened to be "Irish night". In due course two men came in - a man with a tambourine, and an old man with a three-row button accordion. Of this instrument - which had the advantage of a full set of bass-buttons on the left-hand side - the player made full use: it was the best bit of ITM playing on a button-box I've heard bar none. (Of course, two-row greats such as Daly can't take advantage of so many notes as this guy had
available..) The accordion player was called Tom Sullivan; I wonder if he is or was well known.
I've forgotten what the tambourine player did, and frankly it wouldn't have mattered.
Instrument Combinations in sessions
Instrument Combinations in sessions
There have been similar discussions to this in the past. Last week, for instance, but this related to a band situation.
We would probably all agree that as far as bodhrans and guitars are concerned, one or two is probably enough in an average session but what about other instruments? Do you feel supported if there are others there playing the same instrument as yourself or can this be a hindrance? People sometimes suggest I go to such and such a place because there are mandolin players there. However, I don't see this as any great advantage as I'd just as soon play the tune along with fiddlers, whistles etc. Another mandolin player may have a different style to me, in any case. Perhaps, we could do something specific or clever together or share a few tips but that's not really the point of a session--or at least, it would be a different kind of session.
On the other hand, there is probably room for more fiddlers, flute/whistle players and the like as I feel they can blend together much better. Of course, if it's one of these really huge sessions you can get away with a lot more of everything and maybe anything goes!
John
# Posted on October 20th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
John,
I was at a session (just listening) in Dublin last night where there were SEVEN fiddles.
Five of the fiddlers seemed to be there to learn and so were playing "sottovoce".
The overall sound though was actually pretty good.
Anyway I would have thought that a session was the very place to swap ideas and combine sounds unless it's a paid gig.
# Posted on October 20th 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Risking accusations of bias, I have to admit to a weakness for sessions with, as well as the usual cotterie of one fiddle, box, pipes, guitar, bodhr
# Posted on October 20th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
you can have more than one fiddle and same with flutes - but you dont want it sounding like a Scottish fiddle orchestra. So no more than 3 fiddles, no more than 2 flutes, 1 button box or concertina (both at the same time can work as well) , bazouki, guitar, bodhran (depending how tasteful the player is) and 1 banjo & def not more than one set of Uillean pipes. No spoons, shakey eggs, bongos, djembes, didjeridoos or anything else that could be classed as annoying.
# Posted on October 20th 2003 by bb
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Combinations are a really useful thing to wear at a session. If too may bodhrans arrive, or six flutes, you can escape through the trapdoor in the back.
# Posted on October 20th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Again, same as the band question. It depends on the people not the instruments
# Posted on October 20th 2003 by ...
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
I think a room of freedom opens up when I play with fiddlers at my own level or above. You can have more fun trying out different twists and the occational harmony.
Also I enjoy playing with pipers.Playing with a speedy and crazy piper inspires me all the way down to the left hand finger bones, - I can just sit there "listening in" and hear my fingers join in on them rolls. ....
I recently visited Belfast, where there was the luxury of two pipers at many sessions. They sure blended in nicely.
What do pipers think of fiddlers?
# Posted on October 20th 2003 by FiddleTramp
What do pipers think of fiddlers?
Speaking for myself, as long as you have nice tunes, decent rhythm and good manners, you're fine. Same as any other melody player.
# Posted on October 21st 2003 by Hanley
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
I wouldn't want to be the only flute player at a session.I almost never play my whistle in sessions because it's so shrill.Probably if I had a better one it would sound better( mine's just a waltons).
I like it if there are flute or whistle players so if I'm learning a tune I can peek at their fingers if I get stuck.I know it's cheating,but it helps me.
Anyway, as long as there's at least one flute player,and no more than two bodrans and two guitars,the rest doesn't really matter to me.I do like the pipes,though.
# Posted on October 21st 2003 by seisflutes
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Hey Seisflutes - looking at peoples fingers is in *no* way cheating. I do it all the time - if I havent played a tune for years but I know it and just cant get it then its fantastic if there is a fiddle player who is also playing the tune. It can be a big help. No cheating is when people bring music stands into sessions
# Posted on October 21st 2003 by bb
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
I don't even know about that, bb. Is there such a thing as "cheating"? Surely the end result is the sound that comes out...oh, and the craic with the people, of course. I think people should be able to do without music and stands...eventually, but I wouldn't call them cheats. Synthesisers is cheating, maybe.
# Posted on October 21st 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
In sessions I like to keep an eye on a good fiddle player near me so that I can be aware of the patterns of finger and bow movement. It's a great help with tunes I don't know well - that's most of them
Cheating? Of course not, it's part of the natural learning process. The pupil/learner/improver tries to copy what the skilled player is doing.
Trevor
# Posted on October 21st 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
I wouldn't call bringing sheet music into sessions cheating but I think it's a waste of time as by the time you've found the music, the others have probably moved on a further few tunes. It's easier just to play what you can by ear or sit out in that particular tune. Of course, if it was a very slow moving session where you played exactly the same sets each week, you could maybe manage to get your music organised. However, the best sessions are not like that and you shouldn't necessarily expect one tune to follow the other.
Looking at fingers is OK, although I usually only do it if I haven't immediately worked out the key of the tune. Again, things are probably moving too fast and it's probably better to let your ears work for you.
John
# Posted on October 21st 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
I know one or two fine session musicians who wouldn't dream of playing from the dots, but what they sometimes do is to have a little notebook with just the first bar or two of the tunes to remind themselves. This is all to do with recall rather than memory.
I believe this business of recall and memory was discussed some time ago, but basically the trouble is we can often know and play a tune as soon as someone else starts it off, but as for starting it ourselves from cold, that can be quite another matter!
Trevor
# Posted on October 21st 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Trev - I've seen people doing that, with the notebook. It's good idea.
John - One guy I know does that, ie rummaging around till he gets the right page open, often 2-thirds the way through the tune. Shame cos he's a nice player (and a nice guy). I've suggested he photocopies the tunes then staples together the photocopies of the ones that he knows we play as sets. So far he hasn't done that though.
Danny.
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by Rudall the time
Looking at fingers
Interesting reading what other people say about looking at other players' fingers. My lad and I play some of the duets in the Northumbrian Pipers society duet book, and I find that I can play best when I can see his finger movements, even if I can't hear him well.
Dave
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Northumbrian Pipers society duet book - my dad had a tune in that - if it's the same book - Mrs Mona Cameron who was my granny - surely can't be the same book?
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by Yohan
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Looking at another player's fingers is no different from an orchestral musician watching the conductor's baton - only the orchestral musician has to read the dots at the same time. I very often play with my eyes closed, and I find the best way to keep time in a noisy session is to listen to somebody else's foot-tapping. Box players tend to stomp the loudest.
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Marcus Hernon's big fingers hardly appear to move. Which is a difficult visual image to reconcile with the auditory signals.
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
Mr. Showaddy,
I usually watch what everyone else is playing, picking up their timing and everything. In an unfocussed sort of way! But it seems to come out in synch with what's going on. But that's a drummer's perspective \())
To the theme of the thread - as far as I can make out, the people who tolerate an Irish Session in their pub like it to have bass and treble going on i.e. a guitar and/or bodhr
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by greenman
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
You guys are right - there is no *cheating* obviously -as it is not an exam. Its a waste of time bringing music to sessions I think because as said before by the time you actually find the tune the session has probably moved on. And how are you supposed to get better if you constantly rely on the music even in sessions? We all started out wearing those floaties around our arms when learning to swim here in australia but you hardly ever see an adult swimmer wearing them. (well actually never see adults wearing them and if you did you'd probably wet yourself laughing)
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by bb
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
It is as important to watch as to listen - especially when playing a duet with someone at the other end of the room.
I was doing that last night and a "Sone Age" type came in and stood in the middle of the room for 5 minutes deciding whether his coat was wet and should he take it off or sit down first. He eventually decided to go to the bar with his coat on.
Ever wished you had X-Ray vision like Superman? - it would have been as bad with a skeleton in the middle of the room.
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
At least he got his priorities right, Geoff!
# Posted on October 22nd 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
I was at a session last year in Stockport that consisted of over thirty musicians, including some big names. At the end of the evening, several bods were raving about how brilliant it was. I couldn't agree. The sound was too big and changed depending on were you stood in the room. I had a crap seat in between two accordian players. Thirty players and I could only hear accordians. What is the ideal number (not combination) of players?
# Posted on October 23rd 2003 by Martinm
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
For me, 7-10 players, with no one instrument overwhelming the rest. So, a couple fiddles, couple flutes, a box, a piper, a guitar and/or bouzouki, a bodhran, one of whatever else...to me, you can't beat that.
Well, Martin, consider yourself lucky. It could have been the tambourine!
# Posted on October 23rd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
One Sunday evening at Speedy Mullan's in Downpatrick we had a superb line up of instruments as follows
Fiddle [Lawrence Montague], two row [Sean O'Neill], Bouzouki [John Mc Greevy], Flute [yours truly], Mandolin and vocals [John Rodgers], Uileann Pipes [Danny Mc Greevy], Banjo and border pipes [Paul 'Dicko' Mc Greevy], Guitar and vocal [Dermot McGuinness], Whistle [Joe O'Neill] and Bodhr
# Posted on October 25th 2003 by breandan
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
6-8 is a nice amount but as said - not too many of the one type of instrument. Martinm - 30 muso's and stuck between two accordians? sounds like my worst nightmare
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by bb
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
I'm a fan of small sessions, the big ones can be fun too, but they often get muddy unless it's an all star line up.
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by B Rad
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
I was once in a pub in the middle of nowhere ( somewhere vaguely in the region of Drogheda, if I remember rightly). The evening happened to be "Irish night". In due course two men came in - a man with a tambourine, and an old man with a three-row button accordion. Of this instrument - which had the advantage of a full set of bass-buttons on the left-hand side - the player made full use: it was the best bit of ITM playing on a button-box I've heard bar none. (Of course, two-row greats such as Daly can't take advantage of so many notes as this guy had
available..) The accordion player was called Tom Sullivan; I wonder if he is or was well known.
I've forgotten what the tambourine player did, and frankly it wouldn't have mattered.
# Posted on August 5th 2006 by nicholas
Re: Instrument Combinations in sessions
(In the above bit I meant to say, "As many chords as this guy had available": boy, could he use those left-hand basses!)
# Posted on August 5th 2006 by nicholas