Has anyone got any ideas on how to avoid tendon troubles that beset fiddlers? Exercises or other tips are welcome. I get real trouble in my shoulder bowside and a cricky neck.....which I usually treat with anti-infammatory gels or Tiger Balm but that's after. I'd love to hear how fellow players avoid or prevent these sorts of things. Thanks.
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
That one resonates with me. I'm all ears. Except to add that it isn't just tendons that are affected, but the ulnar nerve too, with very serious surgical consequences recently for one of my friends, a band member at risk, and twinges in my own elbows. If someone could point us at a decent fiddler's equivalent of a sports injury site please?
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I just did a google using "musician injury prevention" as search terms and came up with quite a few sites.
Do you bend your neck while playing? Try to keep your head upright, and your muscles relaxed, curved fingers, etc...
check out the websites
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Start with a good set up for your fiddle and posture. You want your head and neck to be in a natural, neutral posture, and do whatever it takes to achieve that. Lots of choices go into this--whether or not to use a shoulder rest and chin rest, what type and size of either of those, adjustments on both, etc. It's all about fitting things *to you.* Not what works for someone else.
From there, you can avoid aches and pains by letting go of tension and aiming for economy of motion. If your bow shoulder hurts, you're probably overusing it--in fact, the bow shoulder should rarely move at all (just a skooch to get over to the G string).
I found this invaluable in treating, and it appears, keeping a pretty severe tendonitis at bay which had resulted from a trapped nerve.
The device was recommended by a banjo driver of my acquaintance. Have since also found it to be great for pre-gig pre-practice warm ups. Hard to describe exactly how it works, I'm sure there are youtubes available. 2 minutes a time leaves my arm with an 'activated' kind of feeling. The physio I was attending at the time was intrigued and recommended using it with the arm in the playing position.
Have also seen much cheaper copies in various shops if anybody wanted to try a cheaper option.
Oh, and for players who have not experienced RSI type injuries Alexander Technique cannot be recommended highly enough for creating postural awareness. An ounce of prevention...
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Miss Lonely Hearts has hit on the root of the problem (as he usually does) - it's no good treating the symptoms with medication or physiotherapy until you sort out the basic postural business. And, as MLH says, this is where you need an experienced teacher to advise and guide, for it's generally very difficult to do it yourself (and anyway, how would you know if you're doing it right?)
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
This doesn't just happen to Fiddlers.
My wife is suffering from a form of this, or RSI if you prefer, in her forearms and she plays the Harp, so posture has little or nothing to do with her problems.
I've heard of this kind of thing bothering Flute players a lot, too.
As a Fiddler I have never ever used a Shoulder Rest or Pad in all the 30 years I've been scratching away at the Fiddle & yet I have never ever had any bother with this trouble.
Still, I hear lots of folks swear that you must use them, or suffer the consequences.
Makes me wonder about the thousands & more of Fiddlers who Fiddled all their lives without the aid of any shoulder rests, aye and often without even chin rests, either!
Perhaps today's Fiddlers are just a load o' wee softies .... a bunch of Pansies, maybe!
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Thanks PT, I've been experiencing weakness/pain in my right thumb, I think, due to excessive banjo playing. I was going to ask for advice but...guess I shan't mention it. Better I just shut up and keep playing!
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I second EnDaC's suggestion of both the Powerball and Alexander Technique. The latter has been mentioned before in this context. I got on to the Powerball a year or so ago, and am a believer. It is, as (s)he says, a great warm-up, even if you are having no problems.
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Ptarmy, whether a shoulder rest is helpful or not depends a lot on a person's own anatomy. I have a fairly tall neck--without a shoulder rest, my head ends up cocked forward and down, significantly stressing my neck. But people with shorter necks can get along fine without a shoulder rest.
Remember: we're each unique (just like everybody else).
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I've had less problems since I ditched the shoulder rest, but that may not be for everyone... I also try to do some stretching exercises. I should do them every day but at the moment I don't. This one is great for the back and shoulders:
- Sit on the floor with your legs straight forward, making an L shape
- Take your right hand hand put it on the outside of your left foot (lean forward and bend your knees as much as necessary)
- Streeeetch
- Do the same thing with your left hand on your right foot
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20457
You shouldn't be in pain. Pain means damage. Stop playing the moment you feel it coming on and loosen yourself up for a few seconds -- that's all it takes. If the pain resumes, you are doing something you shouldn't. I would look first at the height of your chinrest, as it seems that they are too short for most people. If you turn your head to the left, keeping your face vertical, and put your finger and thumb in a C shape between chin and collarbone, that should be the height of your chinrest. If you find much of a difference, I would look at altering it. I added half an inch to mine, and it made the world of difference.
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Going on from the last sentence of gam's post, have a look at this website http://www.violinistinbalance.nl/, which details research by a Dutch music college into violinists' posture (the Dutch are the tallest people in Europe, btw). The bottom line is that the shoulder rest is not such a significant issue, but the chin rest is - most people have a chin rest that is too low.
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
This happens to pipers too!
A bloke I play with plays Northumbrian Pipes & every now & then he complains about getting a 'Piper's Dead Thumb'!
It seems that when NPs grip the chanter too tightly the top thumb often gets cramp.
Is it my imagination, or is it the case that most, if not all, of these problems stem from bad practice, either bad posture, bad grip, or just not knowing when to stop playing & give your digits a rest!
Too much of a good thing etc etc
They've known about this for a long time now .... in fact, wasn't it Aristotle who said in his Golden Rule:
"Everything in moderation."
I'm sure we're all guilty of this business of excess, now & again.
I get it myself when playing the English Concertina.
I'm teaching myself the English Concertina, with one of the larger models, a Tenor Treble, and as a beginner I find I can't play for too long without feeling a little pain in my Pinkies.
I personally think that the trick is knowing when to stop & rest .. BEFORE .. you feel any pain.
Then, making sure you take a long enough break in between playing.
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
But life is sooooooo short...Is there really time to quit? So many instruments, so many tunes, so many people to play with...And Gddamnit I have to work!!!!
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Wow! Lots of interesting things to think about. I'm going to check out the sites mentioned (including the powerball thing). It certainly seems there is a big problem with position for lots of us. And the fact that maybe we don't know when we are doing it wrong. I first learned violin as a child in school and way back in the 60's we had to have a good classical position. Funnily enough I recently went to a classical concert and no-one seemed to have this position anymore, you know the one with the scroll high up and the head accordingly to one side. Things have changed!
When I started playing again in the 90's I automatically adopted the position I had always used - this may be the root of the problem. Alexander Technique is supposed to be good for all out nuts and bolts so why not?
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Another observation: In allowing myself to relax when playing, I carried things a little too far. My left shoulder ball was sagging out of its socket, stretching the local ligaments, and causing nerve impingement. This was confirmed by my physical therapist. Now, I try to keep it sucked up, while relaxing elsewhere.
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I just pulled something in my left shoulder from leaning on it wrong last night. It hurts whenever I move it. Fortunately it doesn't hurt when I play. Anyway, when I first picked up the fiddle years ago, I could barely play a scale without having a seizure. for the first couple years I could maybe play a tune without tensing up. A friend who guided me through this told me to just take a break when I felt tense and this has worked. I play in shifts and then find something else to do until I feel relaxed again. Now I can play for a half hour straight and maybe feel a little tense afterwards
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
The main problem is that players, espec fiddlers, play by sight, not by feel. Playing by sight tries to copy what is assumed to be seen in others, espec violinists, "because they must know and must be doing it right", espec if their names are well-known.
Rubbish. Play be feel, and you avoid the problems that feel bad. Play by feel and you always play in tune. play be feel and you notice that your released (relaxed) efforts sound more musical than tense "correct" efforts.
Most violinists and fiddlers have pain and troubles if they play alot. These mostly come from lifting body parts into artificial postures, then moving with artificial motions. Ouch.
Tension makes things smaller, tighter. Release allows things to be larger, looser. With all types of music.
So don't copy what someone famous looks like. Feel yourself playing without looking. Always be comfortable.
I play w/o chinrest because I never touch my chin to the fiddle. For me, chinrests are heavy and block the sound (some don't agree).
I recommend that your arms begin with elbows touching your sides, and only add enough "lift" or "suspension" to play. Less is more.
Alexander technique is very good for basic body awareness. But useless for fiddling, because AT teachers will prob buy into the trad violinistic "look", and try to "help" you do it the trad injurious way, not any useful released way of plyng. In spite of all their training.
Best advice: Begin with no effort at all. Add only what is absolutely necessary to create sounds. Simple ain't easy, but with attention you Can play comfortably and musically.
Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Has anyone got any ideas on how to avoid tendon troubles that beset fiddlers? Exercises or other tips are welcome. I get real trouble in my shoulder bowside and a cricky neck.....which I usually treat with anti-infammatory gels or Tiger Balm but that's after. I'd love to hear how fellow players avoid or prevent these sorts of things. Thanks.
# Posted on October 6th 2009 by Bev in Brittany
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
That one resonates with me. I'm all ears. Except to add that it isn't just tendons that are affected, but the ulnar nerve too, with very serious surgical consequences recently for one of my friends, a band member at risk, and twinges in my own elbows. If someone could point us at a decent fiddler's equivalent of a sports injury site please?
# Posted on October 6th 2009 by Chrisp
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I just did a google using "musician injury prevention" as search terms and came up with quite a few sites.
Do you bend your neck while playing? Try to keep your head upright, and your muscles relaxed, curved fingers, etc...
check out the websites
# Posted on October 6th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
This particular one looks interesting
http://eeshop.unl.edu/music.html
# Posted on October 6th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Start with a good set up for your fiddle and posture. You want your head and neck to be in a natural, neutral posture, and do whatever it takes to achieve that. Lots of choices go into this--whether or not to use a shoulder rest and chin rest, what type and size of either of those, adjustments on both, etc. It's all about fitting things *to you.* Not what works for someone else.
From there, you can avoid aches and pains by letting go of tension and aiming for economy of motion. If your bow shoulder hurts, you're probably overusing it--in fact, the bow shoulder should rarely move at all (just a skooch to get over to the G string).
For all of this, a good teacher can help a lot.
# Posted on October 6th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I know this may lead to comedy, but anyway...
http://www.nsdpowerballs.com/store.cfm?gclid=CJGCu-S-qZ0CFaBb4wodn3q7kw
I found this invaluable in treating, and it appears, keeping a pretty severe tendonitis at bay which had resulted from a trapped nerve.
The device was recommended by a banjo driver of my acquaintance. Have since also found it to be great for pre-gig pre-practice warm ups. Hard to describe exactly how it works, I'm sure there are youtubes available. 2 minutes a time leaves my arm with an 'activated' kind of feeling. The physio I was attending at the time was intrigued and recommended using it with the arm in the playing position.
Have also seen much cheaper copies in various shops if anybody wanted to try a cheaper option.
Oh, and for players who have not experienced RSI type injuries Alexander Technique cannot be recommended highly enough for creating postural awareness. An ounce of prevention...
# Posted on October 6th 2009 by EnDaC
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I've been getting good results from sessions with a physical therapist (who happens to be very good!)
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by musicstudent
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Miss Lonely Hearts has hit on the root of the problem (as he usually does) - it's no good treating the symptoms with medication or physiotherapy until you sort out the basic postural business. And, as MLH says, this is where you need an experienced teacher to advise and guide, for it's generally very difficult to do it yourself (and anyway, how would you know if you're doing it right?)
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
This doesn't just happen to Fiddlers.
My wife is suffering from a form of this, or RSI if you prefer, in her forearms and she plays the Harp, so posture has little or nothing to do with her problems.
I've heard of this kind of thing bothering Flute players a lot, too.
As a Fiddler I have never ever used a Shoulder Rest or Pad in all the 30 years I've been scratching away at the Fiddle & yet I have never ever had any bother with this trouble.
Still, I hear lots of folks swear that you must use them, or suffer the consequences.
Makes me wonder about the thousands & more of Fiddlers who Fiddled all their lives without the aid of any shoulder rests, aye and often without even chin rests, either!
Perhaps today's Fiddlers are just a load o' wee softies .... a bunch of Pansies, maybe!
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Thanks PT, I've been experiencing weakness/pain in my right thumb, I think, due to excessive banjo playing. I was going to ask for advice but...guess I shan't mention it. Better I just shut up and keep playing!
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by shanty
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I second EnDaC's suggestion of both the Powerball and Alexander Technique. The latter has been mentioned before in this context. I got on to the Powerball a year or so ago, and am a believer. It is, as (s)he says, a great warm-up, even if you are having no problems.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by will morgan
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Ptarmy, whether a shoulder rest is helpful or not depends a lot on a person's own anatomy. I have a fairly tall neck--without a shoulder rest, my head ends up cocked forward and down, significantly stressing my neck. But people with shorter necks can get along fine without a shoulder rest.
Remember: we're each unique (just like everybody else).
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I've had less problems since I ditched the shoulder rest, but that may not be for everyone... I also try to do some stretching exercises. I should do them every day but at the moment I don't. This one is great for the back and shoulders:
- Sit on the floor with your legs straight forward, making an L shape
- Take your right hand hand put it on the outside of your left foot (lean forward and bend your knees as much as necessary)
- Streeeetch
- Do the same thing with your left hand on your right foot
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20457
You shouldn't be in pain. Pain means damage. Stop playing the moment you feel it coming on and loosen yourself up for a few seconds -- that's all it takes. If the pain resumes, you are doing something you shouldn't. I would look first at the height of your chinrest, as it seems that they are too short for most people. If you turn your head to the left, keeping your face vertical, and put your finger and thumb in a C shape between chin and collarbone, that should be the height of your chinrest. If you find much of a difference, I would look at altering it. I added half an inch to mine, and it made the world of difference.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by gam
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Going on from the last sentence of gam's post, have a look at this website http://www.violinistinbalance.nl/, which details research by a Dutch music college into violinists' posture (the Dutch are the tallest people in Europe, btw). The bottom line is that the shoulder rest is not such a significant issue, but the chin rest is - most people have a chin rest that is too low.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Shanty, I reckon, as a Banjo player you make other folks suffer, so you should expect to suffer a little yourself!
But seriously, have you tried lots of different shapes & sizes of picks?
There's plenty of variety out there:
http://www.eaglemusicshop.com/products.asp/SubCatID/195/banjo-plectrums-finger-picks.htm
Also, you might light like to try one of Sully's Thimbles:
http://www.halshawmusic.co.uk/pix.html
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
This happens to pipers too!
A bloke I play with plays Northumbrian Pipes & every now & then he complains about getting a 'Piper's Dead Thumb'!
It seems that when NPs grip the chanter too tightly the top thumb often gets cramp.
Is it my imagination, or is it the case that most, if not all, of these problems stem from bad practice, either bad posture, bad grip, or just not knowing when to stop playing & give your digits a rest!
Too much of a good thing etc etc
They've known about this for a long time now .... in fact, wasn't it Aristotle who said in his Golden Rule:
"Everything in moderation."
I'm sure we're all guilty of this business of excess, now & again.
I get it myself when playing the English Concertina.
I'm teaching myself the English Concertina, with one of the larger models, a Tenor Treble, and as a beginner I find I can't play for too long without feeling a little pain in my Pinkies.
I personally think that the trick is knowing when to stop & rest .. BEFORE .. you feel any pain.
Then, making sure you take a long enough break in between playing.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
But life is sooooooo short...Is there really time to quit? So many instruments, so many tunes, so many people to play with...And Gddamnit I have to work!!!!
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by shanty
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Shanty, you either take a short or a long term view.
e.g. If you want to look forward to playing all your life .... chill out!
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Jesus, just relax everyone. Ptarmigan's last bit of advice ("chill out") is the best in this thread.
Nothing should be tight or 'gripped' or tensed or stressed.
Hold the instrument in a relaxed way.
Play in a a relaxed way.
The music will sound a lot better as well.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Jams_O'Donnell
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Wow! Lots of interesting things to think about. I'm going to check out the sites mentioned (including the powerball thing). It certainly seems there is a big problem with position for lots of us. And the fact that maybe we don't know when we are doing it wrong. I first learned violin as a child in school and way back in the 60's we had to have a good classical position. Funnily enough I recently went to a classical concert and no-one seemed to have this position anymore, you know the one with the scroll high up and the head accordingly to one side. Things have changed!
When I started playing again in the 90's I automatically adopted the position I had always used - this may be the root of the problem. Alexander Technique is supposed to be good for all out nuts and bolts so why not?
Thanks everyone. I'll post on my progress.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Bev in Brittany
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
Another observation: In allowing myself to relax when playing, I carried things a little too far. My left shoulder ball was sagging out of its socket, stretching the local ligaments, and causing nerve impingement. This was confirmed by my physical therapist. Now, I try to keep it sucked up, while relaxing elsewhere.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by will morgan
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
I just pulled something in my left shoulder from leaning on it wrong last night. It hurts whenever I move it. Fortunately it doesn't hurt when I play. Anyway, when I first picked up the fiddle years ago, I could barely play a scale without having a seizure. for the first couple years I could maybe play a tune without tensing up. A friend who guided me through this told me to just take a break when I felt tense and this has worked. I play in shifts and then find something else to do until I feel relaxed again. Now I can play for a half hour straight and maybe feel a little tense afterwards
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Fiddler's elbow ( and shoulder and finger etc)
The main problem is that players, espec fiddlers, play by sight, not by feel. Playing by sight tries to copy what is assumed to be seen in others, espec violinists, "because they must know and must be doing it right", espec if their names are well-known.
Rubbish. Play be feel, and you avoid the problems that feel bad. Play by feel and you always play in tune. play be feel and you notice that your released (relaxed) efforts sound more musical than tense "correct" efforts.
Most violinists and fiddlers have pain and troubles if they play alot. These mostly come from lifting body parts into artificial postures, then moving with artificial motions. Ouch.
Tension makes things smaller, tighter. Release allows things to be larger, looser. With all types of music.
So don't copy what someone famous looks like. Feel yourself playing without looking. Always be comfortable.
I play w/o chinrest because I never touch my chin to the fiddle. For me, chinrests are heavy and block the sound (some don't agree).
I recommend that your arms begin with elbows touching your sides, and only add enough "lift" or "suspension" to play. Less is more.
Alexander technique is very good for basic body awareness. But useless for fiddling, because AT teachers will prob buy into the trad violinistic "look", and try to "help" you do it the trad injurious way, not any useful released way of plyng. In spite of all their training.
Best advice: Begin with no effort at all. Add only what is absolutely necessary to create sounds. Simple ain't easy, but with attention you Can play comfortably and musically.
Best wishes, vlnplyr
# Posted on October 11th 2009 by vlnplyr