Hi, was at a session tonight, the speed kept on getting faster and faster within each set. Now I dont mind as I think the energy is brilliant, but is there a concensus on which instrument causes it or does it just depend on the people present.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
It's not the instrument that speeds things up - it's person playing.
It could be that nobody is willing/able to take control. It could be that
nobody's really listening to what's going on. It is not the bodhran's
or guitar's job to keep the beat. The bodhran should be following the
dominant tune players.
I have to say though, that it takes a good fiddler to keep a steady beat.
It's easier for a banjo, box or flute to lay down the law - especially if
the fiddlers aren't very good.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Rather than point the blame at any one instrument - although I think fiddles are a fair and an easy target - I want to point to two things which play into this speeding up.
First, it's easier to speed up to match someone's tempo than to ramp down - try it some time. If you're in a group, it's really difficult to match one player slowing down, but if someone speeds up, it's almost natural to pick up the pace with them. This means that there's only one way the tempo will change, typically.
Also, many players - fiddlers and flutes especially - do two things when they get excited: they get louder, and they play faster. If the louder instruments are playing faster, it's not hard to guess what happens.
As for the bodhran, if the bodhran disagrees with anyone as to the tempo, the bodhran is wrong. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
at the sessions i attend it seems to be the guitairist that is speeding up. i thought it was there job to pull the flutes and fiddles into line by maintaining a steady beat.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
guitarists are easy to target in this equation and granted often guitarists do speed things up, however sometimes it may seem that it's the guitarist speeding things up when in fact they are just reacting to one or two players around them speeding up.
Sometimes it's an impossible nightmare trying to keep a steady rhythm when there's a bunch of tune players not listening to each other and playing 20 different speeds at once!!!!
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
frogeyes: no, it's the melody player's responsibility to be steady. It is the accompanist's job to support and reinforce the tempo and the rhythms established by the melody players. Of course if the melody players can't establish a strong steady rhythm because they can't play very well, you should try your luck elsewhere.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Too often its a fiddle, that the guitarist is either attempting to match or rein in that can cause the disturbance. That said if there is solid guitar player in the group who is really steady, and can be counted on I like to watch his/her right hand. It's really nice when people play together, the sound is so much tighter, and when Im get to be a part of it... wow what a joy.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
As a banjo player, I see my job as being a sort of pitched metronome. It is one reason I use ornaments, especially in a large ensemble, rather sparingly. It is widely understood that an arhythmic banjo player can really wreck cohesion in a session.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I separate the phenomenom into two categories. The first is the solo player who through nervousness gets faster. No real cure for this except practice and confidence. On the smallpipes I would fall into this category though i am sure I've never played them at a session where Kenny has been!
The second category is that I find that speeding up in a group is usually a death spiral of different people all wanting to be playing just ahead of the beat - not necessarily faster, just their idea of when their note should happen in relation to the beat itself. And indeed when there is a good steady beat coming from somewhere it is a joy to play at the same speed, but just ahead of the instrument playing on the beat - it provides an element of drive and you can hear it in many recordings of many different kinds of music, including this. In the other direction, playing behind the beat gives you the laid-back feel of e.g. Reggae.
So in contrast to the claim that it is caused by people not listening to each other, I maintain that it is caused by people listening to each other but all wanting to have their note microscopically ahead of the others - not faster, just ahead of the beat. Naturally when more than one person does this then they have to repeatedly overtake each other. And everything gets faster.
If one melody player (who started the set) consciously ignores the rest and sticks to his or her beat then the rest don't speed up, or if they do then there is a train crash and they hopefully learn from it for the next time. But note, this is contrary to the advice to listen to the others all the time!
Every drummer (not Bodhran player) I have spoken to who is _not_ involved in session style TM is amazed by the idea that anyone except the drummer should ever be responsible for keeping the beat.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Playing guitar in a session in Willie Week I got blamed by one of the other musicians for speeding the sets up. I was completely innocent however. The problem was the fiddler. If you listened to them then they sped the tune up every time it repeated. They would come in to the A part with renewed energy and got carried away.
One of the sessions I go along to occasionally there can be a problem with sets speeding up and usually it is the fault of poorly played ornamentation - people misjudging the amount of time they have to play a roll and rushing it.
Whilst a good accompanist will try to maintain a steady beat to assist the melody players if the melody players are making a pig's ear of it then it becomes impossible to accompany. You can't rein someone in when they appear to be making no effort to even listen to themselves.
(a) Trying to characterize a group of people who all happen to play one instrument players is as pointless as trying to characterize a random group of people who happen to be e.g. Nigerian, stamp collectors, 'bus drivers, rugby fans, Muslims, lesbians, goldfish breeders. I can't be done.
(b) Backers should lay down a sympathetic groove for the melody players to sit on and shine. Ideally a good backer can subliminally pull the ensemble together by letting the tune-smiths concentrate on the tune and not have to think about keeping in time with each other. It's waht the conductor is for in an orchestra and a drummer/ percussionist is for in a jazz/ pop/ rock/ reggae/ popular music type combo thing.
(c) As Mr Kiparsky said, it's a lot easier to speed up than slow down, so unchecked, it's bound to happen. It's one way traffic tempo wise.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Please, please, please don't anyone give the impression to bodhran players or guitar players that it is their job to keep the timing. It absolutely isn't. It's the job of the person who starts the tune to make sure the timing is right. There a few things more annoying in this world than a percussionist trying to 'adjust' the speed to what he thinks is right.
Bad timing is usually cased by bad phrasing. The offender should play along to recordings until the problem is overcome.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
yes bogman, there I agree with you - all bodhran players/guitarists think that the tunes should be faster, because it is easy for them to thump/strum faster.
And I would also agree with NCFA - overyly ambitious ornaments usually bugger things up for me too.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"...all bodhran players/guitarists think that the tunes should be faster, because it is easy for them to thump/strum faster."
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that statement. Sometimes I think tunes can be played too fast by the melody players. Sometimes too slow. Ultimately it is up to the person leading the set to set the pace however.
I hate it on the rare occasions that I play the whistle in a session for someone to join in and instantly speed the set up. It is rude, pure and simple. That doesn't just apply to accompanists. It can equally apply to melody players. It is similar to someone coming along and hyjacking the set without so much as a by your leave.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Crackpot: ' all bodhran players/guitarists...' you've met everyone of them then! Or are we trying to characterize a group of diverse individuals?
Bogman: Yes! It is the job of the tune-starter to set the tempo and it is the job of the 'rhythm section' to empathetically reinforce that. It all depends on how good, knowledgable and experienced the accompanist is.
And the thought of people 'playing along with recordings' being seen as a good thing is nonsense! It should be fiercely discouraged! That's why 'they' - both melody palyers and backers- speed up, slow down, don't listen, lack basic musicality. They have no idea of how to play in an ensemble because they are not used to a two way conversation with the other players.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Playing along to a recording teaches people to listen! The recording isn't going to make adjustments for you so you are forced to work on your own playing. Frankly I don't do this enough!
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Ok sorry, couldn’t resist. I just thought the question was deliberately provocative, trying to pit one instrument against another, when of course it comes down to the player.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Yes yhaalhouse, of course I've met every person who has ever played the Bodhran or Guitar. Anyone I haven't met doesn't exist. :-p
Seriously though, I know two or three reasonable Bodhranistas and 1 reasonable guitarist from amongst those I session with regularly. I mean reasonable in the sense that it is a joy for me to play with them and we don't have huge tempo/phrasing/ego problems. Don't get me wrong, the others may be good in another context or other company, but I know by trial and error what works for me and that is bodhran players that can hold a beat and guitar players that play reliably in the rhythm. Even to the extent that I (as set starter or solo player) can drop out for a few bars, listen, and then jump back in and it will all still be there where it should be.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"And the thought of people 'playing along with recordings' being seen as a good thing is nonsense! It should be fiercely discouraged!" - eh????
That ranks beside the view of folks who think it unhealthy to listen to recordings of performing musicians in case they sound like a clone. Aye, these people exist, and they even believe in their convictions.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"The offender should play along to recordings until the problem is overcome."
"the thought of people 'playing along with recordings' being seen as a good thing is nonsense!"
"The recording isn't going to make adjustments for you so you are forced to work on your own playing."
I detest the idea that playing along to recordings is some sort of magic solution to the problem of developing good style and phrasing. Coleman and Morrison didn't play along to recordings. You learn to play with people by playing with people.
I agree with half of No Cause For Alarm's point - recordings give no quarter, when it comes to timing. But it's a bit like having an overbearing teacher who scolds you for every flaw, and never lets you recognise them for yourself.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Who said playing with recordings was a "magic solution"? It is just another tool in the armour - an important tool. I would imagine it would be all the more important if you live somewhere remote from traditional music and if you do have a local, even monthly session, then the musicians are not eactly inspirational.
Note - I have no particular person or geographical location in mind and am not meaning to offend anyone. People do come on here all the time though saying there is no one else playing the music anywhere near them. More power to them for picking it up but to tell them they are not allowed to learn from recordings seems particularly perverse.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Maybe to be part of any traditional culture you have to live within that culture (even partially).
I spend a lot of time eating in 'ethnic' restaurants: Tamil, Punjabi Halal, Jamaican and so forth and therefore rub shoulders with it first hand. To play diddley you have to live partially in a world of it, rubbing shoulders at a session fairly regularly say. Getting away from the porn analogue (!) perhaps learning along with recordings is like trying to experience Mutton Khottu or Nehari just by cooking it yourself from a recipe and not getting your arse down to Tooting. I know that is only really second hand culture because I'm not rubbing shoulders in your actual Jaffna or Lahore but it's as near to real home grown culture as a fab session in SW19 is to Irish culture!
Trying to do it on your own or sporadically especially in some isolated place forsaken by the gods is no good no matter how good your recipe book (with pix of how the food's supposed to look!) or old LPs are.
And, back to the question, the above is true both for melody merchants and rhythm raspers. Both can wreck sessions with their inattention to tempo and ensemble-ness.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
the answer I think is that people who aren't listening tend to not keep good time. But also I think you have to have played with good players who keep good time to really know how to do it.
What people don't get is that we're never playing strict time. The beat is more of a consensus in the ensamble, so you have to be listening for it
I've had someone tell me I should tap my foot so they could see where the beat was. See?
that's how it starts. One player stops listening and starts speeding up. The rest of us then are left to decide whether we stop playing and have a train wreck, or we speed up too. We speed up when we come to the consensus that we don't want to have to stop the tune and are willing to make some consessions to avoid that
Mutton Khottu: Tamil dish consisting of chopped roti (flat bread), mutton curry, onions, green chilli, egg fried together on a hotplate.
Nehari: Pakistani dish (meaning 'breakfast' in Urdu) consisting off lamb shin slow cooked in a rich gravy served with nan (flat bread) and julliened ginger, fresh chillis and onion salad.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Sauteed bodhrans, chopped into little pieces of course
Cream of Guitar, amplified. Pickled banjo and a little fiddle to add some flavour, in a pot roast heated with burning smallpipes....
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
1. NO FOR GAWD'S SAKE THE STRUMMERS AND WHACKERS SHOULD NOT BE DICTATING TEMPO! Sorry, just wanted to reinforce that, which brings us to our next point...
2. "...people who aren't listening tend to not keep good time..." - Nate Ryan
It all comes down to listening. Strummers and whackers need to be listening to the melody players and ACCOMPANYING them. Wow, a novel concept, eh?
Which instrument speeds up a session the most?
None of them.
"It's not the instrument that speeds things up - it's person playing." - Hup
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I'd just like to add that I completely agree that beginner/novice fiddlers tend to speed things up out of nerves. I find myself doing this all the time and it cripples the sound of my playing. And as far as the playing along to recordings, this is something I just started doing and it has helped me IMMENSELY to be able to keep a steady pace and relax while playing a tune. It works best for me when I record the playing and listen back to identify areas where I am off from the recording although I am getting better and better and recognizing this during the actual play. I can't stress enough how much this practice has helped my playing and I can't even comprehend why anyone would discourage it for people learning to play. Especially since you can go through the process of learning without hindering a session!
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"Every drummer (not Bodhran player) I have spoken to who is _not_ involved in session style TM is amazed by the idea that anyone except the drummer should ever be responsible for keeping the beat."
That's funny, because it's typically the bassist that you listen to for the beat, at least in rock and jazz - if you know what you're doing, anyway. "The bassist is the law, the drummer is just the police", as Don Manning once said.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
This is my (very) amateur opinion, but it would seem that part of the reason a set will speed up is that by the time at tune has gone a second time around players have warmed into the tune and have it down, and thus speeding up just happens naturally, unless the discipline of a more seasoned player is present. That would seem a factor, at least.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
The rhythm and tempo are inherent in how the tune is played by the melody player(s). As a backer, I need to adapt to what the melody players are doing, and find it really hard to back players who don't have a good sense of rhythm or can't maintain a steady rhythm on their own. I'll usually just sit things out when I end up in a session where the person leading the tune varies their tempo all over the place.
So, I'd put the blame on the individual player of an instrument.
Backers are more critical for setting the tempo and beat in other styles of music, but not ITM. Part of the reason backers get a bad rap is because a lot of backers bring in that tendency to try to set the beat from other styles they've played. I can reinforce the rhythm and beat set down by the melody players and help to keep folks in sync, but I can't create it if they don't already have it.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
The most? Not an instrument but this: a known-to-be-excellent player paying a rare visit to a session and sitting calmly, taking his/her time to unpack his/her instrument.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I suspect it's odds-on likely to be a little mandolin playing away where practically no-one can hear it.
Even he can't hear it. His plectrum snicker-snackers away in overdrive as he guesses what tune it is playing and what key it's in and every now and then falters as he tries to get a roll in.
A sensed fractional loss of speed incites him instinctively to skip a beat or two - maybe a bar or two - to keep up. But in fact, he has got ahead. He does not know this, as he can't hear what he's playing, but someone else does.
This other player might have an express desire to see the tune off as fast as possible, and race into a new one of his own choice. So he takes the mandolinist's place at the head of the pack as his blast-off point and zooms away ahead from there, the rest of the session accompanying him in full cry. Except the mandolinist, who has got mired down trying to do another roll.
Less credible theories than this have earned people fame and money.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Good questions Joel.
>Do players of different instruments in a session really have 'jobs', predefined roles and specific responsibilities?
Yes, but they aren’t that in depth. Melody players play the melody and backers do what jeff_willner said so well above:
“Backers are more critical for setting the tempo and beat in other styles of music, but not ITM. Part of the reason backers get a bad rap is because a lot of backers bring in that tendency to try to set the beat from other styles they've played. I can reinforce the rhythm and beat set down by the melody players and help to keep folks in sync, but I can't create it if they don't already have it.”
>Does it really matter if the music speeds up or slows down? Doesn't this add to the ebb and flow of the tunes?
Within sets, I believe is the issue here. Different sets at different times, then yes, sure. Tunes within sets, heck no. They should all be the same speed. That’s just the theory. In reality, they usually run downhill as the saying goes. More often than not you’ll end up a bit faster at the end of a big ol’ set o’reels than at the beginning.
The rule of thumb: Whoever starts the set, sets the tempo
>What happens if the recordings you play along to are not very good?
Get thee to a session!
>Did Coleman really not listen to recordings? He made recordings himself, so perhaps he listened to others? Does that matter?
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Nicholas... note skipping you mentioned happens. It does. So does nervous speed. I play fiddle, and it irks me to no end when fiddlers rush. Also the beat isn't necessarily the sounding of the note. I have no idea how to articulate this, but the sticatto (pardon the classical terminology) like playing of some fiddlers, who have little respect for the over all shape and pulse of a tune, but do understand 4/4 time, or whatever, and they play like mad (they want to rush because something in them knows their fiddle should me making a sound, they just don't know when).. they go faster and faster. To those fiddlers I say.... listen... to good players and good players only for about 2 weeks. If that means recordings only for two weeks... so be it. Listen to the shape of the tune, notice how each note is not necessarily a drum beat on the count, but is sounded and that the rhythm of the tune is what is on the count... its so hard to describe, only way to characterize it is for each person to do some serious listening. Each tune has its own character... you just can't apply a general rule, other than listening more... guess less.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I thought Coleman was pretty much the first example of recorded Irish music. Correct me if I am wrong on that. If he was though then he would not listen to recordings of others, no. But Coleman was crap so what does it matter?
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
It is definitely the person, not the instrument and often it is difficult to work out who the culprit is. At our session we had problems with each tune getting faster and one player in particular would get mad and insist we kept a steady beat. Everyone seemed to think it was everyone else's fault. INterestingly now that player has left and speeding up is no longer a problem. YOu often find out what people are doing when they are not there, rather than when they are.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I think you need to follow the group, no matter what you are playing. It doens't matter a lick if you KNOW that you are steady and on the beat; if the majority isn't with you, it's silly and sounds like crap to be the "right" one. I can equate this concept to my band. There are times when I know I'm speeding up because I'm just into it or have nerves. My drummer pulls me back (and the bass and guitar follow suit). However, there are times when my drummer drinks too much or gets excited and starts speeding things up so badly that it sounds like a trainwreck if I keep steady. So, to avoid the trainwreck, I speed fiddle. Doesn't always sound as nice if the tempo were on point, but at least it doesn't sound like Babel.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Fiddlechick, as the fiddler you are fully within your rights to administer corporal punishment to the other band members for their flagrant disregard and disrespect of your esteemed position.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
i agree the worst culprits are the inexperienced,
couple with that that there are many goatwhackers and 3 chords spruce bashers that sit in sessions who; if the'd chosen another instrument, would still be practicing at home, and the fact that their instruments are relatively loud,
the answer to the OQ has to be bodrans and guitars.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"Q: Is a bodhran player a musician?
A: Is a barnacle a ship?"
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Calling bodhran players parasites is a little harsh, S.U.S.!
But we are not talking about the likes of Gene Krupa, Max Roach, or Shelly Mann, bandleaders who happened to be drummers.
Agreed, rhythm players should follow the leader of the tune.
(The one who started it, not the one(s) who want to take over.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Who is spreading the good news and who is writing it are different. Yes, the bass is where you hear the beat, but who keeps the bass honest? Although any band where bass and drums have problems agreeing is doomed anyway.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
@redh:
Your post suggests that the member who left was in fact instinctively scapegoating the others (without necessarily realising he was doing this) to cover his own deficiencies in the area in question (i.e., speeding up).
I've read or heard that this sort of blaming is a very sure sign that the blamer is doing, or wanting to do, exactly the things he / she is blaming.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"Who is spreading the good news and who is writing it are different. Yes, the bass is where you hear the beat, but who keeps the bass honest?"
I guess everyone can do things their way. In my experience, it's generally been "the bass is the law, the drummer is just the police". This works in a band that changes rhythms - say, a rock band that does something in a reggae time, something in funk, and so forth, or a jazz combo that plays some standards, some Latin rhythms, and the like. If I'm sitting in with those guys, I know the drummer might be doing almost anything at any time, but the bass better be putting the one where everyone can find it, and putting it right. On the other hand, if I'm sitting in with guys who do nothing but old Rolling Stones, and they've got a good Charlie Watts, I don't have to worry so much about their Bill Wyman.
But for my money, it's always been a safer bet to rely on the bassist than the drummer. And if you do rely on the drummer, the only truth he tells is in the kick - everything else is suspect.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Next time you go to a session take a metronome with you. Preset it to the speed you think the tunes should be played and away you go. All right you may get some dirty looks from the other musicians but it will be well worth it in the end believe me, and you'll all have a wonderful evening of ceol agus craic........
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I imagine that you would see an example of time flying if someone brought a metronome to any session I've ever been to. By that i mean flying out the door, window or any available opening.
I think that whichever instrument is the most dominant is responsible for keeping the speed at the correct rate. That asks the question of what the hierarchy is........... for me Pipes, Banjo, Concertina/ Button Accordion then maybe fiddle, mandolin, flute, whistle then the rhythmn section what do you think?
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
The group I am in is recording, and the engineer recommended a click track, so we tried playing with a metronome recently (bless me Father, for I have sinned). It was eye opening how fluid our approach to rhythm is, as it was very odd at first, adapting to the fixed pace. Certain phrases in certain tunes seem guaranteed to get us off to the races, and other phrases get things slowed.
In the end, I think it is not an instrument that speeds things up, it is a player or a person. No particular instrument is generally to blame...
(Oh, and by the way, I think Llig is back in the doghouse, temporarily barred from posting.)
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Shock! How could you Al? whatever next. scales!? jeez you wanna watch out, its a slippy slope to professionalism. Before you know it youll be that fellah with a backing track playing musak for the tourist crowds.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"I would also imagine that a bad melody player is likely to come from a deprived background, like boarding school or something..." (bodhran bliss).
Ah, Mr. Bliss! Rem acu tetigisti. This has indeed been the case, whatever boarding schools are like now. Forty years ago when I attended one the rule was clear: no instruments but the guitar were allowed in studies. (These were the small rooms occupied by boys, 4/5/6 people to a room, during breaks and spare time.)
The result was that public schools probably produced an impressive number of reasonable on-the-way guitarists as the Sixties washed into the Seventies, not to mention the ones who thought they were the next Dylan / Clapton / Harrison and weren't. But I don't remember *any* trad-type instruments getting in under the ban except a pair of bongos and a jews' harp in my house's hippy study, which I was in.
Anyone turning up with a fiddle might well have been marched off to the Music School to do scales (maybe no bad thing!).
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Speaking in my alter ego as a bass player, I didn't know I was supposed to be the law and the drummer was supposed to be the police.
Someone asked how do you keep the bass player honest? In my case, you just have to bribe me properly and sufficiently to keep me honest.
Fortunately, I do seem to be blessed with a good internal metronome (unlike some drummers I have worked with).
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Guys I have missed you. Reading this has been a beautiful journey directly down memory lane. Even O'Boobigan's got a mention!! And the answer to the question is Joe CSS's fiddle, of course.
Much love from your dear friend in absence
Mehit
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Dance Bands are just as bad for having speed-merchants/
It applies to sessions as well, but I am always telling beginners (and intermediate players), always start a set a bit slower than you want it to go.
After decades of playing together, we have a band-speed that doesn't vary much but if I set off a set purposefully slower, it always gravitates back to the band speed.
It is no use blaming the guitar player if the fiddlers speed up, it is up to the better musicians to keep the speed. Pity the poor dance-band players who have to contend with the dancers clapping at a totally different speed - you have to ignore them and keep the beat steady, by stamping your foot or whatever other means.
which instrument speeds up a session the most?
which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Hi, was at a session tonight, the speed kept on getting faster and faster within each set. Now I dont mind as I think the energy is brilliant, but is there a concensus on which instrument causes it or does it just depend on the people present.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Fournes
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
It is the bodhrán's job to keep the beat steady. If things speed up it's their responsibility.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by fidkid
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Guitar mostly. Otherwise probably fiddlers. Or a particular fiddler.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Joe CSS
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Joe CSS's fiddle
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by D.J.F.
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
It's not the instrument that speeds things up - it's person playing.
It could be that nobody is willing/able to take control. It could be that
nobody's really listening to what's going on. It is not the bodhran's
or guitar's job to keep the beat. The bodhran should be following the
dominant tune players.
I have to say though, that it takes a good fiddler to keep a steady beat.
It's easier for a banjo, box or flute to lay down the law - especially if
the fiddlers aren't very good.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Hup
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
That's right, blame it on the Bodhrans! haha
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Rather than point the blame at any one instrument - although I think fiddles are a fair and an easy target - I want to point to two things which play into this speeding up.
First, it's easier to speed up to match someone's tempo than to ramp down - try it some time. If you're in a group, it's really difficult to match one player slowing down, but if someone speeds up, it's almost natural to pick up the pace with them. This means that there's only one way the tempo will change, typically.
Also, many players - fiddlers and flutes especially - do two things when they get excited: they get louder, and they play faster. If the louder instruments are playing faster, it's not hard to guess what happens.
As for the bodhran, if the bodhran disagrees with anyone as to the tempo, the bodhran is wrong. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
at the sessions i attend it seems to be the guitairist that is speeding up. i thought it was there job to pull the flutes and fiddles into line by maintaining a steady beat.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by frogeyes
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
guitarists are easy to target in this equation and granted often guitarists do speed things up, however sometimes it may seem that it's the guitarist speeding things up when in fact they are just reacting to one or two players around them speeding up.
Sometimes it's an impossible nightmare trying to keep a steady rhythm when there's a bunch of tune players not listening to each other and playing 20 different speeds at once!!!!
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Fartknocker
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
frogeyes: no, it's the melody player's responsibility to be steady. It is the accompanist's job to support and reinforce the tempo and the rhythms established by the melody players. Of course if the melody players can't establish a strong steady rhythm because they can't play very well, you should try your luck elsewhere.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
fidkid: don't rely on a bodhran to keep you steady. Develop your own internal metronome.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
John Kiparsky: spot on.
Q: Is a bodhran player a musician?
A: Is a barnacle a ship?
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Too often its a fiddle, that the guitarist is either attempting to match or rein in that can cause the disturbance. That said if there is solid guitar player in the group who is really steady, and can be counted on I like to watch his/her right hand. It's really nice when people play together, the sound is so much tighter, and when Im get to be a part of it... wow what a joy.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
As a banjo player, I see my job as being a sort of pitched metronome. It is one reason I use ornaments, especially in a large ensemble, rather sparingly. It is widely understood that an arhythmic banjo player can really wreck cohesion in a session.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by will morgan
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Here in Scotland, in my experience, it's bad players of the various types of small pipes, who all are trying to be Gordon Duncan.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Kenny
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I separate the phenomenom into two categories. The first is the solo player who through nervousness gets faster. No real cure for this except practice and confidence. On the smallpipes I would fall into this category
though i am sure I've never played them at a session where Kenny has been!
The second category is that I find that speeding up in a group is usually a death spiral of different people all wanting to be playing just ahead of the beat - not necessarily faster, just their idea of when their note should happen in relation to the beat itself. And indeed when there is a good steady beat coming from somewhere it is a joy to play at the same speed, but just ahead of the instrument playing on the beat - it provides an element of drive and you can hear it in many recordings of many different kinds of music, including this. In the other direction, playing behind the beat gives you the laid-back feel of e.g. Reggae.
So in contrast to the claim that it is caused by people not listening to each other, I maintain that it is caused by people listening to each other but all wanting to have their note microscopically ahead of the others - not faster, just ahead of the beat. Naturally when more than one person does this then they have to repeatedly overtake each other. And everything gets faster.
If one melody player (who started the set) consciously ignores the rest and sticks to his or her beat then the rest don't speed up, or if they do then there is a train crash and they hopefully learn from it for the next time. But note, this is contrary to the advice to listen to the others all the time!
Every drummer (not Bodhran player) I have spoken to who is _not_ involved in session style TM is amazed by the idea that anyone except the drummer should ever be responsible for keeping the beat.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Crackpot
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Playing guitar in a session in Willie Week I got blamed by one of the other musicians for speeding the sets up. I was completely innocent however. The problem was the fiddler. If you listened to them then they sped the tune up every time it repeated. They would come in to the A part with renewed energy and got carried away.
One of the sessions I go along to occasionally there can be a problem with sets speeding up and usually it is the fault of poorly played ornamentation - people misjudging the amount of time they have to play a roll and rushing it.
Whilst a good accompanist will try to maintain a steady beat to assist the melody players if the melody players are making a pig's ear of it then it becomes impossible to accompany. You can't rein someone in when they appear to be making no effort to even listen to themselves.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I've found that it's the accordion players who are the culprits.
But thinking about it, it's maybe not they who 'speed up' the most - they rather just *set off* at a ridiculous pace in the first place.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by domnull
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Its not the 'instrument' but the 'tool' behind it!
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by csparpd
Nigerian, stamp collectors, 'bus drivers, rugby fans, Muslims, lesbians, goldfish breeders.
(a) Trying to characterize a group of people who all happen to play one instrument players is as pointless as trying to characterize a random group of people who happen to be e.g. Nigerian, stamp collectors, 'bus drivers, rugby fans, Muslims, lesbians, goldfish breeders. I can't be done.
(b) Backers should lay down a sympathetic groove for the melody players to sit on and shine. Ideally a good backer can subliminally pull the ensemble together by letting the tune-smiths concentrate on the tune and not have to think about keeping in time with each other. It's waht the conductor is for in an orchestra and a drummer/ percussionist is for in a jazz/ pop/ rock/ reggae/ popular music type combo thing.
(c) As Mr Kiparsky said, it's a lot easier to speed up than slow down, so unchecked, it's bound to happen. It's one way traffic tempo wise.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Please, please, please don't anyone give the impression to bodhran players or guitar players that it is their job to keep the timing. It absolutely isn't. It's the job of the person who starts the tune to make sure the timing is right. There a few things more annoying in this world than a percussionist trying to 'adjust' the speed to what he thinks is right.
Bad timing is usually cased by bad phrasing. The offender should play along to recordings until the problem is overcome.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
yes bogman, there I agree with you - all bodhran players/guitarists think that the tunes should be faster, because it is easy for them to thump/strum faster.
And I would also agree with NCFA - overyly ambitious ornaments usually bugger things up for me too.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Crackpot
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"...all bodhran players/guitarists think that the tunes should be faster, because it is easy for them to thump/strum faster."
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that statement. Sometimes I think tunes can be played too fast by the melody players. Sometimes too slow. Ultimately it is up to the person leading the set to set the pace however.
I hate it on the rare occasions that I play the whistle in a session for someone to join in and instantly speed the set up. It is rude, pure and simple. That doesn't just apply to accompanists. It can equally apply to melody players. It is similar to someone coming along and hyjacking the set without so much as a by your leave.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Crackpot: ' all bodhran players/guitarists...' you've met everyone of them then! Or are we trying to characterize a group of diverse individuals?
Bogman: Yes! It is the job of the tune-starter to set the tempo and it is the job of the 'rhythm section' to empathetically reinforce that. It all depends on how good, knowledgable and experienced the accompanist is.
And the thought of people 'playing along with recordings' being seen as a good thing is nonsense! It should be fiercely discouraged! That's why 'they' - both melody palyers and backers- speed up, slow down, don't listen, lack basic musicality. They have no idea of how to play in an ensemble because they are not used to a two way conversation with the other players.
Hey ho!
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Playing along to a recording teaches people to listen! The recording isn't going to make adjustments for you so you are forced to work on your own playing. Frankly I don't do this enough!
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Ok sorry, couldn’t resist. I just thought the question was deliberately provocative, trying to pit one instrument against another, when of course it comes down to the player.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by fidkid
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Yes yhaalhouse, of course I've met every person who has ever played the Bodhran or Guitar. Anyone I haven't met doesn't exist. :-p
Seriously though, I know two or three reasonable Bodhranistas and 1 reasonable guitarist from amongst those I session with regularly. I mean reasonable in the sense that it is a joy for me to play with them and we don't have huge tempo/phrasing/ego problems. Don't get me wrong, the others may be good in another context or other company, but I know by trial and error what works for me and that is bodhran players that can hold a beat and guitar players that play reliably in the rhythm. Even to the extent that I (as set starter or solo player) can drop out for a few bars, listen, and then jump back in and it will all still be there where it should be.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Crackpot
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
yhaalhouse - you are soooo wrong.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"And the thought of people 'playing along with recordings' being seen as a good thing is nonsense! It should be fiercely discouraged!" - eh????
That ranks beside the view of folks who think it unhealthy to listen to recordings of performing musicians in case they sound like a clone. Aye, these people exist, and they even believe in their convictions.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"The offender should play along to recordings until the problem is overcome."
"the thought of people 'playing along with recordings' being seen as a good thing is nonsense!"
"The recording isn't going to make adjustments for you so you are forced to work on your own playing."
I detest the idea that playing along to recordings is some sort of magic solution to the problem of developing good style and phrasing. Coleman and Morrison didn't play along to recordings. You learn to play with people by playing with people.
I agree with half of No Cause For Alarm's point - recordings give no quarter, when it comes to timing. But it's a bit like having an overbearing teacher who scolds you for every flaw, and never lets you recognise them for yourself.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Who said playing with recordings was a "magic solution"? It is just another tool in the armour - an important tool. I would imagine it would be all the more important if you live somewhere remote from traditional music and if you do have a local, even monthly session, then the musicians are not eactly inspirational.
Note - I have no particular person or geographical location in mind and am not meaning to offend anyone. People do come on here all the time though saying there is no one else playing the music anywhere near them. More power to them for picking it up but to tell them they are not allowed to learn from recordings seems particularly perverse.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Raise your hand if you have never ever sped up a tune accidentally in your entire musical career?
Anyone, Bueller....? Anyone......?
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
not me!
...I tend to drag
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Maybe to be part of any traditional culture you have to live within that culture (even partially).
I spend a lot of time eating in 'ethnic' restaurants: Tamil, Punjabi Halal, Jamaican and so forth and therefore rub shoulders with it first hand. To play diddley you have to live partially in a world of it, rubbing shoulders at a session fairly regularly say. Getting away from the porn analogue (!) perhaps learning along with recordings is like trying to experience Mutton Khottu or Nehari just by cooking it yourself from a recipe and not getting your arse down to Tooting. I know that is only really second hand culture because I'm not rubbing shoulders in your actual Jaffna or Lahore but it's as near to real home grown culture as a fab session in SW19 is to Irish culture!
Trying to do it on your own or sporadically especially in some isolated place forsaken by the gods is no good no matter how good your recipe book (with pix of how the food's supposed to look!) or old LPs are.
And, back to the question, the above is true both for melody merchants and rhythm raspers. Both can wreck sessions with their inattention to tempo and ensemble-ness.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
the answer I think is that people who aren't listening tend to not keep good time. But also I think you have to have played with good players who keep good time to really know how to do it.
What people don't get is that we're never playing strict time. The beat is more of a consensus in the ensamble, so you have to be listening for it
I've had someone tell me I should tap my foot so they could see where the beat was. See?
that's how it starts. One player stops listening and starts speeding up. The rest of us then are left to decide whether we stop playing and have a train wreck, or we speed up too. We speed up when we come to the consensus that we don't want to have to stop the tune and are willing to make some consessions to avoid that
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Another Off Topic Food Note.
Mutton Khottu: Tamil dish consisting of chopped roti (flat bread), mutton curry, onions, green chilli, egg fried together on a hotplate.
Nehari: Pakistani dish (meaning 'breakfast' in Urdu) consisting off lamb shin slow cooked in a rich gravy served with nan (flat bread) and julliened ginger, fresh chillis and onion salad.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Sauteed bodhrans, chopped into little pieces of course
Cream of Guitar, amplified. Pickled banjo and a little fiddle to add some flavour, in a pot roast heated with burning smallpipes....
Serve with a dollop of Mustard
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by fedorastain
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
1. NO FOR GAWD'S SAKE THE STRUMMERS AND WHACKERS SHOULD NOT BE DICTATING TEMPO! Sorry, just wanted to reinforce that, which brings us to our next point...
2. "...people who aren't listening tend to not keep good time..." - Nate Ryan
It all comes down to listening. Strummers and whackers need to be listening to the melody players and ACCOMPANYING them. Wow, a novel concept, eh?
Which instrument speeds up a session the most?
None of them.
"It's not the instrument that speeds things up - it's person playing." - Hup
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
[urp] No thanks fedorstain, last time I ate sauteed bodhrans I had indegestion for a week.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Yes! Let's summmarize:
ALL players have to listen to each other and keep in time. If one player gets out of time they must listen and get back on the groove.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I'd just like to add that I completely agree that beginner/novice fiddlers tend to speed things up out of nerves. I find myself doing this all the time and it cripples the sound of my playing. And as far as the playing along to recordings, this is something I just started doing and it has helped me IMMENSELY to be able to keep a steady pace and relax while playing a tune. It works best for me when I record the playing and listen back to identify areas where I am off from the recording although I am getting better and better and recognizing this during the actual play. I can't stress enough how much this practice has helped my playing and I can't even comprehend why anyone would discourage it for people learning to play. Especially since you can go through the process of learning without hindering a session!
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by jasten
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"Every drummer (not Bodhran player) I have spoken to who is _not_ involved in session style TM is amazed by the idea that anyone except the drummer should ever be responsible for keeping the beat."
That's funny, because it's typically the bassist that you listen to for the beat, at least in rock and jazz - if you know what you're doing, anyway. "The bassist is the law, the drummer is just the police", as Don Manning once said.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"Coleman and Morrison didn't play along to recordings."
Likely they didn't. Just about everyone since then, though, probably has.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
This is my (very) amateur opinion, but it would seem that part of the reason a set will speed up is that by the time at tune has gone a second time around players have warmed into the tune and have it down, and thus speeding up just happens naturally, unless the discipline of a more seasoned player is present. That would seem a factor, at least.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
The rhythm and tempo are inherent in how the tune is played by the melody player(s). As a backer, I need to adapt to what the melody players are doing, and find it really hard to back players who don't have a good sense of rhythm or can't maintain a steady rhythm on their own. I'll usually just sit things out when I end up in a session where the person leading the tune varies their tempo all over the place.
So, I'd put the blame on the individual player of an instrument.
Backers are more critical for setting the tempo and beat in other styles of music, but not ITM. Part of the reason backers get a bad rap is because a lot of backers bring in that tendency to try to set the beat from other styles they've played. I can reinforce the rhythm and beat set down by the melody players and help to keep folks in sync, but I can't create it if they don't already have it.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by jeff_willner
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
The most? Not an instrument but this: a known-to-be-excellent player paying a rare visit to a session and sitting calmly, taking his/her time to unpack his/her instrument.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
This discussion has made me think of a few questions:
Do players of different instruments in a session really have 'jobs', predefined roles and specific responsibilities?
Does it really matter if the music speeds up or slows down? Doesn't this add to the ebb and flow of the tunes?
What happens if the recordings you play along to are not very good?
Did Coleman really not listen to recordings? He made recordings himself, so perhaps he listened to others? Does that matter?
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I suspect it's odds-on likely to be a little mandolin playing away where practically no-one can hear it.
Even he can't hear it. His plectrum snicker-snackers away in overdrive as he guesses what tune it is playing and what key it's in and every now and then falters as he tries to get a roll in.
A sensed fractional loss of speed incites him instinctively to skip a beat or two - maybe a bar or two - to keep up. But in fact, he has got ahead. He does not know this, as he can't hear what he's playing, but someone else does.
This other player might have an express desire to see the tune off as fast as possible, and race into a new one of his own choice. So he takes the mandolinist's place at the head of the pack as his blast-off point and zooms away ahead from there, the rest of the session accompanying him in full cry. Except the mandolinist, who has got mired down trying to do another roll.
Less credible theories than this have earned people fame and money.
Don't ask me to quote any, though...
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by nicholas
Trouble in the Kitchen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fOMpbbOwEo&feature
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
("Even *the player* can't hear it...")
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by nicholas
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Good questions Joel.
>Do players of different instruments in a session really have 'jobs', predefined roles and specific responsibilities?
Yes, but they aren’t that in depth. Melody players play the melody and backers do what jeff_willner said so well above:
“Backers are more critical for setting the tempo and beat in other styles of music, but not ITM. Part of the reason backers get a bad rap is because a lot of backers bring in that tendency to try to set the beat from other styles they've played. I can reinforce the rhythm and beat set down by the melody players and help to keep folks in sync, but I can't create it if they don't already have it.”
>Does it really matter if the music speeds up or slows down? Doesn't this add to the ebb and flow of the tunes?
Within sets, I believe is the issue here. Different sets at different times, then yes, sure. Tunes within sets, heck no. They should all be the same speed. That’s just the theory. In reality, they usually run downhill as the saying goes. More often than not you’ll end up a bit faster at the end of a big ol’ set o’reels than at the beginning.
The rule of thumb: Whoever starts the set, sets the tempo
>What happens if the recordings you play along to are not very good?
Get thee to a session!
>Did Coleman really not listen to recordings? He made recordings himself, so perhaps he listened to others? Does that matter?
Don’t know, maybe and no. HA!
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Nicholas... note skipping you mentioned happens. It does. So does nervous speed. I play fiddle, and it irks me to no end when fiddlers rush. Also the beat isn't necessarily the sounding of the note. I have no idea how to articulate this, but the sticatto (pardon the classical terminology) like playing of some fiddlers, who have little respect for the over all shape and pulse of a tune, but do understand 4/4 time, or whatever, and they play like mad (they want to rush because something in them knows their fiddle should me making a sound, they just don't know when).. they go faster and faster. To those fiddlers I say.... listen... to good players and good players only for about 2 weeks. If that means recordings only for two weeks... so be it. Listen to the shape of the tune, notice how each note is not necessarily a drum beat on the count, but is sounded and that the rhythm of the tune is what is on the count... its so hard to describe, only way to characterize it is for each person to do some serious listening. Each tune has its own character... you just can't apply a general rule, other than listening more... guess less.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I thought Coleman was pretty much the first example of recorded Irish music. Correct me if I am wrong on that. If he was though then he would not listen to recordings of others, no. But Coleman was crap so what does it matter?
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
You might say he couldn't cut the mustard!
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I think John Doherty listened to J.S. Skinner recordings.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Random_notes
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/skinner.htm
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I'm guessing Coleman didn't listen to his own recordings, or he would have fired the pianist!
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by grego
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
original question ~ ADHD
present company excepted. ;)
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Random_notes
. . . other topics (piano backers)
Michael Coleman's piano players
September 23rd 2005 by Sharon the Flute
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7821
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
It is definitely the person, not the instrument and often it is difficult to work out who the culprit is. At our session we had problems with each tune getting faster and one player in particular would get mad and insist we kept a steady beat. Everyone seemed to think it was everyone else's fault. INterestingly now that player has left and speeding up is no longer a problem. YOu often find out what people are doing when they are not there, rather than when they are.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by redh
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I think you need to follow the group, no matter what you are playing. It doens't matter a lick if you KNOW that you are steady and on the beat; if the majority isn't with you, it's silly and sounds like crap to be the "right" one. I can equate this concept to my band. There are times when I know I'm speeding up because I'm just into it or have nerves. My drummer pulls me back (and the bass and guitar follow suit). However, there are times when my drummer drinks too much or gets excited and starts speeding things up so badly that it sounds like a trainwreck if I keep steady. So, to avoid the trainwreck, I speed fiddle. Doesn't always sound as nice if the tempo were on point, but at least it doesn't sound like Babel.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Fiddlechick, as the fiddler you are fully within your rights to administer corporal punishment to the other band members for their flagrant disregard and disrespect of your esteemed position.
No no, I tease.
Electronic shock collars work just fine.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
...preferably connected to handy foot pedals, for ease of use while fiddling, of course.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
i agree the worst culprits are the inexperienced,
couple with that that there are many goatwhackers and 3 chords spruce bashers that sit in sessions who; if the'd chosen another instrument, would still be practicing at home, and the fact that their instruments are relatively loud,
the answer to the OQ has to be bodrans and guitars.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by rumpole
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
SWFL, I see you have moved on with your life even after O'Boobigan's closed. ;)
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Random_notes
we sync the collars to an electronic metronome.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"Q: Is a bodhran player a musician?
A: Is a barnacle a ship?"
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Calling bodhran players parasites is a little harsh, S.U.S.!
But we are not talking about the likes of Gene Krupa, Max Roach, or Shelly Mann, bandleaders who happened to be drummers.
Agreed, rhythm players should follow the leader of the tune.
(The one who started it, not the one(s) who want to take over.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by oldstrings
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Who is spreading the good news and who is writing it are different. Yes, the bass is where you hear the beat, but who keeps the bass honest? Although any band where bass and drums have problems agreeing is doomed anyway.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Crackpot
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
@redh:
Your post suggests that the member who left was in fact instinctively scapegoating the others (without necessarily realising he was doing this) to cover his own deficiencies in the area in question (i.e., speeding up).
I've read or heard that this sort of blaming is a very sure sign that the blamer is doing, or wanting to do, exactly the things he / she is blaming.
And I think:
"I don't want to know this.
EEUUURGHH!!
......... It means we're all S * * * S!!"
I share this with you.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by nicholas
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"Who is spreading the good news and who is writing it are different. Yes, the bass is where you hear the beat, but who keeps the bass honest?"
I guess everyone can do things their way. In my experience, it's generally been "the bass is the law, the drummer is just the police". This works in a band that changes rhythms - say, a rock band that does something in a reggae time, something in funk, and so forth, or a jazz combo that plays some standards, some Latin rhythms, and the like. If I'm sitting in with those guys, I know the drummer might be doing almost anything at any time, but the bass better be putting the one where everyone can find it, and putting it right. On the other hand, if I'm sitting in with guys who do nothing but old Rolling Stones, and they've got a good Charlie Watts, I don't have to worry so much about their Bill Wyman.
But for my money, it's always been a safer bet to rely on the bassist than the drummer. And if you do rely on the drummer, the only truth he tells is in the kick - everything else is suspect.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Next time you go to a session take a metronome with you. Preset it to the speed you think the tunes should be played and away you go. All right you may get some dirty looks from the other musicians but it will be well worth it in the end believe me, and you'll all have a wonderful evening of ceol agus craic........
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Free Reed
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I imagine that you would see an example of time flying if someone brought a metronome to any session I've ever been to. By that i mean flying out the door, window or any available opening.
I think that whichever instrument is the most dominant is responsible for keeping the speed at the correct rate. That asks the question of what the hierarchy is........... for me Pipes, Banjo, Concertina/ Button Accordion then maybe fiddle, mandolin, flute, whistle then the rhythmn section what do you think?
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by Fournes
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Who speeds up. Elementary my dear Watson. The one who is not a very good MELODY player.
Do it myself all the time if I try the mandolin for jigs/reels. Panic sets in, you speed up.
Seen in happen to thousands of others.
Guitars and bodhrans? They FOLLOW the melody.
I know that excuse was used in Nuremberg but ............
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
I would also imagine that a bad melody player is likely to come from a deprived background, like boarding school or something.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
anyone heard from llig?
He should have popped in for a comment by now, hope he's OK
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
The group I am in is recording, and the engineer recommended a click track, so we tried playing with a metronome recently (bless me Father, for I have sinned). It was eye opening how fluid our approach to rhythm is, as it was very odd at first, adapting to the fixed pace. Certain phrases in certain tunes seem guaranteed to get us off to the races, and other phrases get things slowed.
In the end, I think it is not an instrument that speeds things up, it is a player or a person. No particular instrument is generally to blame...
(Oh, and by the way, I think Llig is back in the doghouse, temporarily barred from posting.)
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by AlBrown
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Shock! How could you Al? whatever next. scales!? jeez you wanna watch out, its a slippy slope to professionalism. Before you know it youll be that fellah with a backing track playing musak for the tourist crowds.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
The bloody party's over, I see.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
No show without punch
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
"I would also imagine that a bad melody player is likely to come from a deprived background, like boarding school or something..." (bodhran bliss).
Ah, Mr. Bliss! Rem acu tetigisti. This has indeed been the case, whatever boarding schools are like now. Forty years ago when I attended one the rule was clear: no instruments but the guitar were allowed in studies. (These were the small rooms occupied by boys, 4/5/6 people to a room, during breaks and spare time.)
The result was that public schools probably produced an impressive number of reasonable on-the-way guitarists as the Sixties washed into the Seventies, not to mention the ones who thought they were the next Dylan / Clapton / Harrison and weren't. But I don't remember *any* trad-type instruments getting in under the ban except a pair of bongos and a jews' harp in my house's hippy study, which I was in.
Anyone turning up with a fiddle might well have been marched off to the Music School to do scales (maybe no bad thing!).
# Posted on October 4th 2009 by nicholas
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Llig's sluuming it in an old discussion: Warning can of worms
# Posted on October 5th 2009 by greg n'sheils
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Speaking in my alter ego as a bass player, I didn't know I was supposed to be the law and the drummer was supposed to be the police.
Someone asked how do you keep the bass player honest? In my case, you just have to bribe me properly and sufficiently to keep me honest.
Fortunately, I do seem to be blessed with a good internal metronome (unlike some drummers I have worked with).
# Posted on October 5th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Guys I have missed you. Reading this has been a beautiful journey directly down memory lane. Even O'Boobigan's got a mention!! And the answer to the question is Joe CSS's fiddle, of course.
Much love from your dear friend in absence
Mehit
# Posted on October 6th 2009 by mehitabel23
Re: which instrument speeds up a session the most?
Dance Bands are just as bad for having speed-merchants/
It applies to sessions as well, but I am always telling beginners (and intermediate players), always start a set a bit slower than you want it to go.
After decades of playing together, we have a band-speed that doesn't vary much but if I set off a set purposefully slower, it always gravitates back to the band speed.
It is no use blaming the guitar player if the fiddlers speed up, it is up to the better musicians to keep the speed. Pity the poor dance-band players who have to contend with the dancers clapping at a totally different speed - you have to ignore them and keep the beat steady, by stamping your foot or whatever other means.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by geoffwright