Greetings. I am new to stringed instruments in general. I would like to start learning a stringed instrument for accompaniment in ITM and I like the sound of these instruments. But I am unclear which I should choose to learn. (I am considering a Trinity College instrument.) Is there one instrument that is more common in ITM/celtic music, or that "works" better? Is one a lot harder to learn than the other? Is one better for accompaniment? Are there advantages to one or the other?
I had the thought that with an octave mandolin I could take regular mandolin lessons (which seem more readily available). But then I realized there may be tuning differences. Really, I don't know what to think.
Any thoughts about how I might make this decision would be greatly appreciated. Sorry about the extremely general question, but a guy has to start some place. Thanks.
this has been discussed here alot, if you do a search you will find hours of reading.
the bz is more common for backing.
the om more common for melody
the bz (long) and the om (short) are the same instrument, just with different length necks/scales.
if you play in a particular tuning on one, you can replicate it on the other.
as a general rule, the longer the neck, the thinner the strings, the lower pressure needer in the fretting hand, and the fuller sound.
but the longer necks have bigger stretches, too big for some.
if you are a beginner, or if (like me) you have small hands, the stretches on the bz might scare you.
TC are ok starter/intermediate instruments.
whatever you buy, get it set up properly.
the mandolin and the OM/BZ can be tuned the same except, you guessed it, they are an octave apart. :-0
As above, except I say that you can certainly play tunes on the 'zouk - just have to move your hand about a bit more.
Some people like to drop the top string a tone to D, saying it makes for easier chording, I don't bother, so I can play without having to change finguring, on OM, Tenor banjo, or mandolin.
The TC instruments have a lot to commend them. You can even improve tone and volume by fitting a Red Henry-pattern bridge, and a heavier tailpiece. I have posted on this many times before.
I have played around with both, though I don't own either (yet), and as a mando player, rumpole is right, if you want to play melody, go with an OM. I have long fingers and I still did not like the stretching on the BZ. If you get a decent OM, the tone will still be very nice.
gedpipes,
I'm not sure what your point is, but in case it's a genuine semantic point, although the term "quite" can be used to mean "somewhat", it is also commonly used to mean something like "truly" or "really":
quite
/kwaɪt/ quite
–adverb
1. completely, wholly, or entirely: quite the reverse; not quite finished.
2. actually, really, or truly: quite a sudden change.
3. to a considerable extent or degree: quite small; quite objectionable.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quite)
Either one may be hard to hear in even a moderately sized session, if you're planning on playing melody. Even though they sound great amplified on Planxty recordings...
Tenor banjo is a more practical picked melody instrument for seesions, though you may not be attracted to its special charm right now.
JimmyB, you actually have to move your hand for playing tunes on the 'zouk, as I said. Just expecting things to fall under your fingers as if you were playing a mandolin is a little optimistic. But the tone makes it all worth while.
Unlike the tenor banjo, which I have always found raucous and unpleasantly loud. Some people argue that the current popularity of 'zouks and OMs is the explanation for the dearth of tenor banjos heard around lately.
Do you know anyone that has a zouk or OM? Even if you are new to stringed instruments, I think it would be worthwhile to hold one first hand to get the feel of the neck length differences.
I started out on a Trinity College OM about 3 years ago. I've now progressed to the point that I'm finding the TC a little limiting and am now getting a custom instrument built. However, it has been a great instrument to learn on and I plan on keeping it for road and camping trips. Also, as Guernsey Pete said, for little cost you can easily improve the tone with a different bridge and better tail piece. I couldn't believe the difference an Allen tailpiece made on my OM.
eisdear: I actually don't know anyone who has either, though I think I might make some inquiries at the local section next week. I think you are right that trying both would make the most sense.
I've made a few instruments where the scale sits between Octave Mandolin and Bouzouki, and it is a very good compromise - not so long as you are liable to fluff passages and long enough for the low notes to ring out.
Doing the 1st-string stretch up to b on a long-scale bouzouki (assuming the 1st string is e) can be tough. It would be nice to have a higher string tuned to b, but then you would have five courses instead of four and most people would probably call an instrument like that a cittern.
I have a short-scale instrument that has five courses and though I agree that it's hard to beat the sound of those long-scale strings, my cittern (made by Oakwood, but with a heaver tailpiece and a Red Henry-pattern bridge) has a nice lute-like sound for melody playing as well as chords.
Unfortunetly I think if you do the math the guage of such a B string would be so narrow as to be at risk of cutting your finger off should you attempt to apply normal playing pressures
ear wig O again........
For what its worth.
my advice like most of the the rest above is to go to a shop and try out both before you decide.....
Hand and finger size does come into choosing which one would suit your particular wants...
Ps ....a lot of the Experts seem to have missed this one ....LOL
Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Greetings. I am new to stringed instruments in general. I would like to start learning a stringed instrument for accompaniment in ITM and I like the sound of these instruments. But I am unclear which I should choose to learn. (I am considering a Trinity College instrument.) Is there one instrument that is more common in ITM/celtic music, or that "works" better? Is one a lot harder to learn than the other? Is one better for accompaniment? Are there advantages to one or the other?
I had the thought that with an octave mandolin I could take regular mandolin lessons (which seem more readily available). But then I realized there may be tuning differences. Really, I don't know what to think.
Any thoughts about how I might make this decision would be greatly appreciated. Sorry about the extremely general question, but a guy has to start some place. Thanks.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by crickett
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
welcome to strings mr cricket.
this has been discussed here alot, if you do a search you will find hours of reading.
the bz is more common for backing.
the om more common for melody
the bz (long) and the om (short) are the same instrument, just with different length necks/scales.
if you play in a particular tuning on one, you can replicate it on the other.
as a general rule, the longer the neck, the thinner the strings, the lower pressure needer in the fretting hand, and the fuller sound.
but the longer necks have bigger stretches, too big for some.
if you are a beginner, or if (like me) you have small hands, the stretches on the bz might scare you.
TC are ok starter/intermediate instruments.
whatever you buy, get it set up properly.
the mandolin and the OM/BZ can be tuned the same except, you guessed it, they are an octave apart. :-0
good luck,
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by rumpole
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
As above, except I say that you can certainly play tunes on the 'zouk - just have to move your hand about a bit more.
Some people like to drop the top string a tone to D, saying it makes for easier chording, I don't bother, so I can play without having to change finguring, on OM, Tenor banjo, or mandolin.
The TC instruments have a lot to commend them. You can even improve tone and volume by fitting a Red Henry-pattern bridge, and a heavier tailpiece. I have posted on this many times before.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Thanks for the responses. They are quite helpful.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by crickett
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
I have played around with both, though I don't own either (yet), and as a mando player, rumpole is right, if you want to play melody, go with an OM. I have long fingers and I still did not like the stretching on the BZ. If you get a decent OM, the tone will still be very nice.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
just 'quite' helpful?
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by gedpipes
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
gedpipes,
I'm not sure what your point is, but in case it's a genuine semantic point, although the term "quite" can be used to mean "somewhat", it is also commonly used to mean something like "truly" or "really":
quite
/kwaɪt/ quite
–adverb
1. completely, wholly, or entirely: quite the reverse; not quite finished.
2. actually, really, or truly: quite a sudden change.
3. to a considerable extent or degree: quite small; quite objectionable.
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quite)
Sheesh.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by crickett
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Either one may be hard to hear in even a moderately sized session, if you're planning on playing melody. Even though they sound great amplified on Planxty recordings...
Tenor banjo is a more practical picked melody instrument for seesions, though you may not be attracted to its special charm right now.
# Posted on October 2nd 2009 by grego
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
JimmyB, you actually have to move your hand for playing tunes on the 'zouk, as I said. Just expecting things to fall under your fingers as if you were playing a mandolin is a little optimistic. But the tone makes it all worth while.
Unlike the tenor banjo, which I have always found raucous and unpleasantly loud. Some people argue that the current popularity of 'zouks and OMs is the explanation for the dearth of tenor banjos heard around lately.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Crickett
Do you know anyone that has a zouk or OM? Even if you are new to stringed instruments, I think it would be worthwhile to hold one first hand to get the feel of the neck length differences.
I started out on a Trinity College OM about 3 years ago. I've now progressed to the point that I'm finding the TC a little limiting and am now getting a custom instrument built. However, it has been a great instrument to learn on and I plan on keeping it for road and camping trips. Also, as Guernsey Pete said, for little cost you can easily improve the tone with a different bridge and better tail piece. I couldn't believe the difference an Allen tailpiece made on my OM.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by eisdear
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Thanks again for all the helpful replies.
eisdear: I actually don't know anyone who has either, though I think I might make some inquiries at the local section next week. I think you are right that trying both would make the most sense.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by crickett
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Just get yourself a Bouzouki.....Its the best of both worlds! You can do it all one one of them.
Best of luck,
Senie.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by seaniemcg
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?N
I agree sceanie but we may have some slight bias
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Well to balance out the zouk bias and throw a spanner in the decision, why not consider a cittern.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by BigDavy
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
I've made a few instruments where the scale sits between Octave Mandolin and Bouzouki, and it is a very good compromise - not so long as you are liable to fluff passages and long enough for the low notes to ring out.
http://www.nkforsterguitars.com
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by NKForster
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Bouzouki. Pete is right they're fine for playing tunes on but you have to move your hand around.
Also in my opinion bouzouki's are the instrument of choice for accompanying ITM, but then I am biased.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Doing the 1st-string stretch up to b on a long-scale bouzouki (assuming the 1st string is e) can be tough. It would be nice to have a higher string tuned to b, but then you would have five courses instead of four and most people would probably call an instrument like that a cittern.
I have a short-scale instrument that has five courses and though I agree that it's hard to beat the sound of those long-scale strings, my cittern (made by Oakwood, but with a heaver tailpiece and a Red Henry-pattern bridge) has a nice lute-like sound for melody playing as well as chords.
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by dfost
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Unfortunetly I think if you do the math the guage of such a B string would be so narrow as to be at risk of cutting your finger off should you attempt to apply normal playing pressures
# Posted on October 3rd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
Yes, I hate it when that happens.
# Posted on October 4th 2009 by dfost
Re: Zouk vs. Octave Mandolin?
ear wig O again........
For what its worth.
my advice like most of the the rest above is to go to a shop and try out both before you decide.....
Hand and finger size does come into choosing which one would suit your particular wants...
Ps ....a lot of the Experts seem to have missed this one ....LOL
# Posted on October 6th 2009 by Dphil