I have an interesting music issue and wondered if you'd give me your opinions?
I started on bass guitar and have picked up the mandolin. When I play bass (or guitar for that matter), I typically learn a tune by listening or watching another person's hands. Initially, I might watch my own hands a bit when I play, but eventually I just listen and play, sometimes with my eyes closed. If I forget where I am or if there is an unexpected change, I'll sometimes look at my fretboard to get myself oriented again.
I hit a plateau on mandolin recently and put it down for three months or so. I just picked it up again today and noticed something odd. When I learn tunes on mandolin, I usually pick them up from sheet music or tab (a bad habit, I know). I rarely look at my fretting hand when learning a song. When I play, I also often close my eyes. However, if I get lost or mixed up, and look at the fretboard, it makes things worse. In fact, I noticed today that if I look at the fretboard at all, I end up making a lot more mistakes. It is almost as if my eyes are a hindrance rather than an aid, but only on mandolin - not on bass, which is my first instrument. In one way, this seems all right. Music is about listening, not seeing. On the other hand, it seems like if I could use my eyes as an aid, I'd make fewer mistakes and make more progress on the instrument.
Have any of you ever experienced or heard about this phenomenon before? If so, do you have any suggestions/opinions?
On the D/G melodeon, I look at the keyboard most of the time. Otherwise I find it all too easy to hit unintended notes, especially the semitones near or next to the bottom D, whether this note is played on the push or the draw. Obviously if these semitones are played by mistake during a tune that is in one of the normal session keys, it sounds horrible.
In loud sessions, I am always looking down the holes of my whistle - and also, again, the keyboard of my box - just to suss out what key we're in.
I started out with a classical violin teacher, and learned from day one that you don't look at your fingers. Ever.
I've applied the same rule to every other instrument I've learnt (apart from an occasional quick glance for unusual position changes on mandolin and guitar).
The train crash that happens when you look at the fretboard is perfectly normal - it happens to everyone.
I think that if you look there is a time delay whilst your brain processes the visual information, thinks which fret you should be on to make the right note, and decides whether what you are seeing is right or wrong. By the time you've done all that, the finger should have moved for the next note.
In most people, vision is a dominant sense. When one starts looking at the fingers, the listening goes by the wayside. You can "feel" better by not looking. Otherwise, the sense of touch is dominated by the sense of sight.
But why does peeking at your fingers work for one instrument and not for the other?
Maybe it's simply because you have to move faster on the melody instrument, as opposed to the rhythm & chords instrument.. Besides that, little frets are harder to see than big frets
I wonder if melody players and rhythm/chord players are using different parts of their brains? How does your brain feel to switch between them?
I sometimes look in the direction of my fretting fingers if I'm playing a tune and no-one else joins in. I'm not actually looking at my fingers, it is just a convenient place to place your eyes when you don't like being the centre of attention.
I've found for myself on a number of occasions that if I try to play from the dots a tune that I already know well I start making mistakes that I wouldn't make if I were playing from memory. This must be related to dwacker's experience and confirms the points made by skreetch and wyogal about vision being the dominant sense.
It was interesting to hear that the classical violin instructor said never to look at your fingers!
Maybe you're right, Suzthoughts, on bass things are generally moving more slowly and are less busy. Therefore, when I look down at the frets that train crash skreech mentioned is less likely to occur? On mando, I am am definitely fretting more notes in the same amount of time, so errors are more easy to make. Oddly, when I look at sheet music/tab, I don't make the mistakes, only when I look at my fingers.
Maybe I'll just press on with my eyes closed on the mando... I'd be curious to hear if there are any seasoned players on here who sometimes rely on looking at their fingers?
I always thought doing something with your eyes closed was supposed to be harder !
A couple of reasons why a classical violin teacher says not to look at your fingers,
1 Classical players need to play from the dots, either in an orchestra or when they're on the way to memorizing the music as a soloist would. The music is generally far too complex in most cases to learn efficiently by ear with an acceptable degree of accuracy.
2 When playing in an orchestra or other ensemble the player needs to have an eye on the conductor/leader and other players for visual cues, as well as reading the dots.
So, not a lot of time for looking at the fingers, which anyway, as has already been pointed out in this discussion, is a distraction.
I think it’s possible you’re having spill-over from your main instrument (bass) to one that you’re still learning (mandolin). Could be compounded by the fact that the tunings are mirror images of each other (E-A-D-G and GG-DD-aa-ee).
It should be just a matter of concentrating on the mandolin for a while, as you say.
One thing about fiddling by the way is that looking at your fingers doesn’t do you much good – there aren’t any frets to look for, so you have to do it all by ear and feel. Which is probably a good thing with any instrument.
developing spatial sense to the point where your fingers can find their way about a keyboard or fretboard without need for visual confirmation is IMHO essential.
you don't see the likes of Sean Keane or Sharon Shannon looking at their fingers
From an accordionists point of view I hate to see players (apart from learners) looking down at the keyboard, but it raises an interesting question?
When watching other button accordion players playing a tune, I can sometimes tell, by watching the position of the fingers and movement of the bellows, the tuning of the box and the key being played. However it doesn't always work, and of course it's a big help it I'm familiar with the tune and it's being played in the 'written key'.
I confess that overeriding the urge to find the right button for the first note of a set visually was hard to overcome. However its good practice for your sense of touch to let your fingers count their way up the buttons to silently find the first button.
It really doesn't look good to peer at the keyboard before starting to play.
Its satisfying to be able to "read" another player's fingers as you describe, but whether it makes any difference is questionable - I don't care what tuning they're using, I just want my B/C to play the same tune the same way (if they're any good and its a tune I want to play played the way I want to play it).
I suppose if you can decrypt the fingering you can accurately identify the notes being played - a help if you can't get the dots and your ear's as poor as mine is. However the stuff I've seen on video streams goes a bit quick and the shots often aren't close enough to the keyboard to tell whether the fingers are passing over a button or pressing it.
I look down at the chanter all the time, but not to see what I'm doing. I could play with my eyes closed, staring at a wall, or watching the tele if I wanted. I look down though because there are no people there and I can better block out the fact that there are people listening to me playing.
And yeah, I can figure out the notes, or the key, of a tune by watching another piper, a whistle player, or a flute player. Can't make heads or tails of the fiddle or box though, but can follow a fiddle player in a loud session by watching how they articulate the tune with their bow, even if I can't hear a note they're playing.
If I ever look at my left hand when playing the fiddle, I can't avoid the impression that it is not my hand at all, but somebody else's. If this has never happened to you, incidentally, don't think about it next time you play. Really.
I think that not being able to see my hands when playing flute has helped me play by ear. There are phrases where I have never noticed what my fingers are doing. But when working on tricky phrases I am sometimes so aware of what my fingers are doing that I forget that I can't see them. Wierdest was when playing in G a tune original learnt in D and having a feeling during bits where the work of that hands was switched that they were on the end of the wrong arms.
You too Silverspear, must be something about the oran mor.
I have a dozen or so photos that a dutch girlfriend of a visiting colleague took of the OM session. Everyone is looking at their feet/instrument/floor and appears to be absolutely miserable in every photo. It looks such a joyless night that I never posted them to FB.
I know I shouldn't, but I watch my fingers. To combat this habit, I often practice my accordion with the lights out.
And when performing, I have a habit of staring ANYWHERE but at the audience, which gives me the stage presence of a baked potato. Thank goodness we aren't performing when we play at a session, and I can sit with my back to the pub and enjoy playing. (oops, did I say that out loud? dangerous ground there!!!)
Also I like the person who said when they look at their left hand they feel like it's someone else's. Sometimes when I play I get "possessed" and it doesn't feel like I'm really playing but being somebody's puppet.
One of the best local fiddlers at my session seems to always play with his eyes closed, and plays beautifully the whole time because he is listening in a more concentrated way by not lookin at his, or anybody else's instrument.
On A side note, due to a question raised earlier, about whether we use different parts of our brain for playing harmony or melody instruments; I happen to play several melody instruments plus also the guitar which I play as a melody instrument but most often as a harmony instrument. I think I do actually use a different part of my brain to use each instrument. The harmony side, is easier for me because I have been playing guitar and piano for longer than violin family instruments including the banjo (because of the tuning)
Happens to me all the time if I let it. I play b/c box.
Like Al Brown, I tend to practice with the lights down- usually because it is very early in the morning. But haaving played much ensemble, I am accustomed to looking for visual cues.
As an organist, I am used to playing blind, so have learned to ply the box blind. My teacher feels it is important to watch hands when playing for the memory reinforcement value. So Often in lessons, I will be playing something I know without looking, or will be making a mess of things because I am nervous performing for John, I will watch my hands and invariably make things much worse.
When I am accompanying other musicians, I usually watch them for visual cues as to what they intend to do next instead of watching my hands.
However, when I am playing solo such as when I play ragtime, I have learned that I need to watch my hands instead of the sheet music (or "dots" as some people like to refer to it) while they are playing so I won't miss any notes. I memorize the music so I can watch my hands while I am playing.
When I do watch my hands while I am playing, I feel as if I am watching two large, five-legged spiders dancing on the keyboard.
Odd Musical Issue
Odd Musical Issue
I have an interesting music issue and wondered if you'd give me your opinions?
I started on bass guitar and have picked up the mandolin. When I play bass (or guitar for that matter), I typically learn a tune by listening or watching another person's hands. Initially, I might watch my own hands a bit when I play, but eventually I just listen and play, sometimes with my eyes closed. If I forget where I am or if there is an unexpected change, I'll sometimes look at my fretboard to get myself oriented again.
I hit a plateau on mandolin recently and put it down for three months or so. I just picked it up again today and noticed something odd. When I learn tunes on mandolin, I usually pick them up from sheet music or tab (a bad habit, I know). I rarely look at my fretting hand when learning a song. When I play, I also often close my eyes. However, if I get lost or mixed up, and look at the fretboard, it makes things worse. In fact, I noticed today that if I look at the fretboard at all, I end up making a lot more mistakes. It is almost as if my eyes are a hindrance rather than an aid, but only on mandolin - not on bass, which is my first instrument. In one way, this seems all right. Music is about listening, not seeing. On the other hand, it seems like if I could use my eyes as an aid, I'd make fewer mistakes and make more progress on the instrument.
Have any of you ever experienced or heard about this phenomenon before? If so, do you have any suggestions/opinions?
Thanks.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by dwacker
Re: Odd Musical Issue
How do flute players manage?
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by gtag
Re: Odd Musical Issue
On the D/G melodeon, I look at the keyboard most of the time. Otherwise I find it all too easy to hit unintended notes, especially the semitones near or next to the bottom D, whether this note is played on the push or the draw. Obviously if these semitones are played by mistake during a tune that is in one of the normal session keys, it sounds horrible.
In loud sessions, I am always looking down the holes of my whistle - and also, again, the keyboard of my box - just to suss out what key we're in.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Odd Musical Issue
I started out with a classical violin teacher, and learned from day one that you don't look at your fingers. Ever.
I've applied the same rule to every other instrument I've learnt (apart from an occasional quick glance for unusual position changes on mandolin and guitar).
The train crash that happens when you look at the fretboard is perfectly normal - it happens to everyone.
I think that if you look there is a time delay whilst your brain processes the visual information, thinks which fret you should be on to make the right note, and decides whether what you are seeing is right or wrong. By the time you've done all that, the finger should have moved for the next note.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by skreech
Re: Odd Musical Issue
In most people, vision is a dominant sense. When one starts looking at the fingers, the listening goes by the wayside. You can "feel" better by not looking. Otherwise, the sense of touch is dominated by the sense of sight.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: Odd Musical Issue
But why does peeking at your fingers work for one instrument and not for the other?
Maybe it's simply because you have to move faster on the melody instrument, as opposed to the rhythm & chords instrument.. Besides that, little frets are harder to see than big frets
I wonder if melody players and rhythm/chord players are using different parts of their brains? How does your brain feel to switch between them?
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by SuzThoughts
Re: Odd Musical Issue
I sometimes look in the direction of my fretting fingers if I'm playing a tune and no-one else joins in. I'm not actually looking at my fingers, it is just a convenient place to place your eyes when you don't like being the centre of attention.
- chris
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Odd Musical Issue
I've found for myself on a number of occasions that if I try to play from the dots a tune that I already know well I start making mistakes that I wouldn't make if I were playing from memory. This must be related to dwacker's experience and confirms the points made by skreetch and wyogal about vision being the dominant sense.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Odd Musical Issue
Thanks for the replies thus far!
!
It was interesting to hear that the classical violin instructor said never to look at your fingers!
Maybe you're right, Suzthoughts, on bass things are generally moving more slowly and are less busy. Therefore, when I look down at the frets that train crash skreech mentioned is less likely to occur? On mando, I am am definitely fretting more notes in the same amount of time, so errors are more easy to make. Oddly, when I look at sheet music/tab, I don't make the mistakes, only when I look at my fingers.
Maybe I'll just press on with my eyes closed on the mando... I'd be curious to hear if there are any seasoned players on here who sometimes rely on looking at their fingers?
I always thought doing something with your eyes closed was supposed to be harder
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by dwacker
Re: Odd Musical Issue
A couple of reasons why a classical violin teacher says not to look at your fingers,
1 Classical players need to play from the dots, either in an orchestra or when they're on the way to memorizing the music as a soloist would. The music is generally far too complex in most cases to learn efficiently by ear with an acceptable degree of accuracy.
2 When playing in an orchestra or other ensemble the player needs to have an eye on the conductor/leader and other players for visual cues, as well as reading the dots.
So, not a lot of time for looking at the fingers, which anyway, as has already been pointed out in this discussion, is a distraction.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Odd Musical Issue
I think it’s possible you’re having spill-over from your main instrument (bass) to one that you’re still learning (mandolin). Could be compounded by the fact that the tunings are mirror images of each other (E-A-D-G and GG-DD-aa-ee).
It should be just a matter of concentrating on the mandolin for a while, as you say.
One thing about fiddling by the way is that looking at your fingers doesn’t do you much good – there aren’t any frets to look for, so you have to do it all by ear and feel. Which is probably a good thing with any instrument.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Odd Musical Issue
developing spatial sense to the point where your fingers can find their way about a keyboard or fretboard without need for visual confirmation is IMHO essential.
you don't see the likes of Sean Keane or Sharon Shannon looking at their fingers
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: Odd Musical Issue
From an accordionists point of view I hate to see players (apart from learners) looking down at the keyboard, but it raises an interesting question?
When watching other button accordion players playing a tune, I can sometimes tell, by watching the position of the fingers and movement of the bellows, the tuning of the box and the key being played. However it doesn't always work, and of course it's a big help it I'm familiar with the tune and it's being played in the 'written key'.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Odd Musical Issue
I confess that overeriding the urge to find the right button for the first note of a set visually was hard to overcome. However its good practice for your sense of touch to let your fingers count their way up the buttons to silently find the first button.
It really doesn't look good to peer at the keyboard before starting to play.
Its satisfying to be able to "read" another player's fingers as you describe, but whether it makes any difference is questionable - I don't care what tuning they're using, I just want my B/C to play the same tune the same way (if they're any good and its a tune I want to play played the way I want to play it).
I suppose if you can decrypt the fingering you can accurately identify the notes being played - a help if you can't get the dots and your ear's as poor as mine is. However the stuff I've seen on video streams goes a bit quick and the shots often aren't close enough to the keyboard to tell whether the fingers are passing over a button or pressing it.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: Odd Musical Issue
I look down at the chanter all the time, but not to see what I'm doing. I could play with my eyes closed, staring at a wall, or watching the tele if I wanted. I look down though because there are no people there and I can better block out the fact that there are people listening to me playing.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Odd Musical Issue
And yeah, I can figure out the notes, or the key, of a tune by watching another piper, a whistle player, or a flute player. Can't make heads or tails of the fiddle or box though, but can follow a fiddle player in a loud session by watching how they articulate the tune with their bow, even if I can't hear a note they're playing.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Odd Musical Issue
If I ever look at my left hand when playing the fiddle, I can't avoid the impression that it is not my hand at all, but somebody else's. If this has never happened to you, incidentally, don't think about it next time you play. Really.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by gam
Re: Odd Musical Issue
I think that not being able to see my hands when playing flute has helped me play by ear. There are phrases where I have never noticed what my fingers are doing. But when working on tricky phrases I am sometimes so aware of what my fingers are doing that I forget that I can't see them. Wierdest was when playing in G a tune original learnt in D and having a feeling during bits where the work of that hands was switched that they were on the end of the wrong arms.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by David50
Re: Odd Musical Issue
You too Silverspear, must be something about the oran mor.
I have a dozen or so photos that a dutch girlfriend of a visiting colleague took of the OM session. Everyone is looking at their feet/instrument/floor and appears to be absolutely miserable in every photo. It looks such a joyless night that I never posted them to FB.
- Chris
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Odd Musical Issue
Too many ugly punters, clearly.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Odd Musical Issue
Right brain = muscle memory, in cohort with cerebellum. It'a helping right now.
Left brain = visual and analytical. It wants your fingerboard to look like a bass fingerboard (i.e., tuned in 4ths).
Don't look at your fingerboard while you're playing for a while. At least until your left brain shuts up.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Odd Musical Issue
I know I shouldn't, but I watch my fingers. To combat this habit, I often practice my accordion with the lights out.
And when performing, I have a habit of staring ANYWHERE but at the audience, which gives me the stage presence of a baked potato. Thank goodness we aren't performing when we play at a session, and I can sit with my back to the pub and enjoy playing. (oops, did I say that out loud? dangerous ground there!!!)
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Odd Musical Issue
why not tape your eyes shut while playing?
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by underthetoaster
Re: Odd Musical Issue
Also I like the person who said when they look at their left hand they feel like it's someone else's. Sometimes when I play I get "possessed" and it doesn't feel like I'm really playing but being somebody's puppet.
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by underthetoaster
Re: Odd Musical Issue
One of the best local fiddlers at my session seems to always play with his eyes closed, and plays beautifully the whole time because he is listening in a more concentrated way by not lookin at his, or anybody else's instrument.
On A side note, due to a question raised earlier, about whether we use different parts of our brain for playing harmony or melody instruments; I happen to play several melody instruments plus also the guitar which I play as a melody instrument but most often as a harmony instrument. I think I do actually use a different part of my brain to use each instrument. The harmony side, is easier for me because I have been playing guitar and piano for longer than violin family instruments including the banjo (because of the tuning)
# Posted on September 30th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Odd Musical Issue
not at all odd.
Happens to me all the time if I let it. I play b/c box.
Like Al Brown, I tend to practice with the lights down- usually because it is very early in the morning. But haaving played much ensemble, I am accustomed to looking for visual cues.
As an organist, I am used to playing blind, so have learned to ply the box blind. My teacher feels it is important to watch hands when playing for the memory reinforcement value. So Often in lessons, I will be playing something I know without looking, or will be making a mess of things because I am nervous performing for John, I will watch my hands and invariably make things much worse.
# Posted on September 30th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Odd Musical Issue
When I am accompanying other musicians, I usually watch them for visual cues as to what they intend to do next instead of watching my hands.
However, when I am playing solo such as when I play ragtime, I have learned that I need to watch my hands instead of the sheet music (or "dots" as some people like to refer to it) while they are playing so I won't miss any notes. I memorize the music so I can watch my hands while I am playing.
When I do watch my hands while I am playing, I feel as if I am watching two large, five-legged spiders dancing on the keyboard.
# Posted on October 5th 2009 by fauxcelt