Hi,
I am very new to the world of irish music, so please excuse my ignorance!
I have played the violin for many years and have recently become interested in learning to play irish fiddle. I have been listening to a lot of irish music (I have heard that this is the best, and even the only, way to learn the style), and trying to learn tunes in the hopes of eventually sitting in on a beginner-friendly open session in my area.
I had a question about the playing of reels: I have read in a few places that reels are typically played with even, not swung, eighth notes, and that other types of tunes, (like hornpipes) are swung (I hope this is correct, please feel free to tell me if it's not.). However, in listening to many irish reels on cd's, etc, they seem to frequently be played with a swing on the eighth notes. Does this just vary by the preference of the musicians, or are there some tunes that are more frequently played one way or the other?
I have many other questions, but this is one thing I have been confused about. Thanks to anyone who can help me out-I'm not even sure if this forum addresses questions like this, but I thought I would give it a shot.
Welcome to the best and worst site about Irish trad music on the web!
How much swing goes into a tune is up to each player's interpretation. Generally reels are played fairly string or swung just a tiny bit. Hornpipes are commonly swung more, but not by everyone.
Also, not all reels want the same feel. Some fairly beg to be played straight, and others want swing. And the same player may swing a tune one night and not swing it the next. Mood, drink, presence of dancers, etc., can all play a part in the feel.
A good starting place is to swing your reels just a wee little bit, but always making sure your basic beats are regular and steady.
This forum does provide opinions on questions like this. Oh my, yes, it certainly does. "Answers" can be hard to come by, though.
In my semi-educated opinion, yes, hornpipes are generally played with more swing than reels are--but how much differs, depending on regional style, or personal interpretation.
i would say swing just enough when playing a reel to make to get a steady down bow on the off beat during the beginnings of phrases. Or you can play with a steady up bow if the tune demands it.
Melmo, I would go to your first idea, which is listening a lot. I have found that reels each have their own personality, and the best way to learn a reel is to hear it. Give up looking at the notes on the sheet and guessing what should be swung, or not. Use the sheet music you find as a guide, sort of like reading a magazine on the toilet, light entertainment... a way to sort out what you think is the basic tune beneath a series of ornaments you may hear on a recording or at a session. I recommend not labelling Irish music with classical or contemporary music labels, because your frontal lobe will get right in the way, of being able to really listen to what is actually happening as the music is played.
I sure have a lot to say lately. I think Im going to go pick up my fiddle and see what tune spills out of my head now.
Hornpipes can sound a little more formulaic, especially when a person thinks they should all be swung.... so avoid that as well. Most of all, enjoy playing. Listen and play a lot. Remember this is the internet, advice on the internet no less... no margin for error here!
should have said I tend toward playing with a swing in my reels.
I play "Flowers of Edinburgh" with some swing but not in a hornpipe rhythm.
The link above was an interesting comment. I don't actually play crooked tunes.
' Does this vary by preference of the musicians, or are there some tunes that are more frequently played one way or the other?'
Yes to both. But be frugal with the swing, or it will go all Scottish.
I would suggest:
Keep listening, if possible, to numerous musicians from within the same regional style, and then compare them to those from another style. The principle of identifying first one thing to more easily identify another, relative to the first, applies here.
What you will hear (hopefully!) is what makes their playing similar, as well as what makes each of them unique (we all interpret, but some of us try to embrace certain values and qualities from a style in doing so).
Also tunes tend to warp and change depending on what group of people play them. A lot of people find that how much swing is put into a tune with change dramatically with a different group of people.
Lots of good advice above. A reel will never be played completely straight - for an example of that, go to the tune archive, grab one of the midi files, and let your midi player play it, that's straight.
But a reel should have a bit of a lope to it, as well as drive. I like to think of reels kind of like a train, going "chukka chukka, chukka chukka", which is naturally swung a bit, but also has some dynamic emphasis, too.
But some reels do tend to feel more natural with a bit more swing, and some with a bit more drive. The lesson to learn there is really that the music is fluid, and there is no set rhythm that you'll play it with. The rhythm will change sometimes from phrase to phrase in the course of a tune, with regards to the accented notes. And eventually you will learn to play around with the rhythm subtly as part of your phrasing.
But it sounds like you're on the right track (pun intended) for learning, which is listen to a lot of the music, and internalize what it feels like.
melmo
good idea is to break up the reel [via slurring or single bowing] into different "clumps" if you will within an 8 note phrase ie, 3, 3, 2 or 1 1 3 3 or 1 3 2 3 etc....those clumps, especially in the "3s" might slur across the bar line, ie, 4&1 or, another common one would be the 2&3 phrase...this is what gives some swing on the backbeat...but the idea is to get away from a "square" pattern within each grouping of 8 notes as you go through a tune...so that the swing/ emphasis on backbeats [the "2&" "4&" or variations thereon] falls within different "groupings"....ie, odd,odd, even [3,3 2] and etc.
just my 2 cents worth....the Rev and Lonely Hearts may agree or pillory me on this.
beginner with a question
beginner with a question
Hi,
I am very new to the world of irish music, so please excuse my ignorance!
I have played the violin for many years and have recently become interested in learning to play irish fiddle. I have been listening to a lot of irish music (I have heard that this is the best, and even the only, way to learn the style), and trying to learn tunes in the hopes of eventually sitting in on a beginner-friendly open session in my area.
I had a question about the playing of reels: I have read in a few places that reels are typically played with even, not swung, eighth notes, and that other types of tunes, (like hornpipes) are swung (I hope this is correct, please feel free to tell me if it's not.). However, in listening to many irish reels on cd's, etc, they seem to frequently be played with a swing on the eighth notes. Does this just vary by the preference of the musicians, or are there some tunes that are more frequently played one way or the other?
I have many other questions, but this is one thing I have been confused about. Thanks to anyone who can help me out-I'm not even sure if this forum addresses questions like this, but I thought I would give it a shot.
Thanks!
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by melmo23
Re: beginner with a question
Welcome to the best and worst site about Irish trad music on the web!
How much swing goes into a tune is up to each player's interpretation. Generally reels are played fairly string or swung just a tiny bit. Hornpipes are commonly swung more, but not by everyone.
Also, not all reels want the same feel. Some fairly beg to be played straight, and others want swing. And the same player may swing a tune one night and not swing it the next. Mood, drink, presence of dancers, etc., can all play a part in the feel.
A good starting place is to swing your reels just a wee little bit, but always making sure your basic beats are regular and steady.
And keep asking questions!
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: beginner with a question
This forum does provide opinions on questions like this. Oh my, yes, it certainly does. "Answers" can be hard to come by, though.
In my semi-educated opinion, yes, hornpipes are generally played with more swing than reels are--but how much differs, depending on regional style, or personal interpretation.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: beginner with a question
You will also see a lot of cross-posting, where two people say pretty much the same thing.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: beginner with a question
i would say swing just enough when playing a reel to make to get a steady down bow on the off beat during the beginnings of phrases. Or you can play with a steady up bow if the tune demands it.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: beginner with a question
Hi,
I think the answer is obvious. Go by what you hear and ignore other people's opinions!
Jim
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by skerries
Re: beginner with a question
Melmo, I would go to your first idea, which is listening a lot. I have found that reels each have their own personality, and the best way to learn a reel is to hear it. Give up looking at the notes on the sheet and guessing what should be swung, or not. Use the sheet music you find as a guide, sort of like reading a magazine on the toilet, light entertainment... a way to sort out what you think is the basic tune beneath a series of ornaments you may hear on a recording or at a session. I recommend not labelling Irish music with classical or contemporary music labels, because your frontal lobe will get right in the way, of being able to really listen to what is actually happening as the music is played.
I sure have a lot to say lately. I think Im going to go pick up my fiddle and see what tune spills out of my head now.
Hornpipes can sound a little more formulaic, especially when a person thinks they should all be swung.... so avoid that as well. Most of all, enjoy playing. Listen and play a lot. Remember this is the internet, advice on the internet no less... no margin for error here!
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: beginner with a question
I believe I am tending towards playing more barndances these days. or at least more crooked versions of tunes. probably began back here;
December 16th 2007 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Question for dancers
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16108/comments#comment334326
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Random_notes
~
should have said I tend toward playing with a swing in my reels.
I play "Flowers of Edinburgh" with some swing but not in a hornpipe rhythm.
The link above was an interesting comment. I don't actually play crooked tunes.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: beginner with a question
' Does this vary by preference of the musicians, or are there some tunes that are more frequently played one way or the other?'
Yes to both. But be frugal with the swing, or it will go all Scottish.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by gam
Re: beginner with a question
I would suggest:
Keep listening, if possible, to numerous musicians from within the same regional style, and then compare them to those from another style. The principle of identifying first one thing to more easily identify another, relative to the first, applies here.
What you will hear (hopefully!) is what makes their playing similar, as well as what makes each of them unique (we all interpret, but some of us try to embrace certain values and qualities from a style in doing so).
Good Luck.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Rook
Re: beginner with a question
Also tunes tend to warp and change depending on what group of people play them. A lot of people find that how much swing is put into a tune with change dramatically with a different group of people.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by An Kammneves
Re: beginner with a question
Try watching people dancing to hornpipes and reels. Then you can see why they are played in the way(s!) they are.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by c.g.
Re: beginner with a question
Wow, I didn't expect to get such a thorough reply! Thanks so much everyone, that is all very helpful!
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by melmo23
Re: beginner with a question
Lots of good advice above. A reel will never be played completely straight - for an example of that, go to the tune archive, grab one of the midi files, and let your midi player play it, that's straight.
But a reel should have a bit of a lope to it, as well as drive. I like to think of reels kind of like a train, going "chukka chukka, chukka chukka", which is naturally swung a bit, but also has some dynamic emphasis, too.
But some reels do tend to feel more natural with a bit more swing, and some with a bit more drive. The lesson to learn there is really that the music is fluid, and there is no set rhythm that you'll play it with. The rhythm will change sometimes from phrase to phrase in the course of a tune, with regards to the accented notes. And eventually you will learn to play around with the rhythm subtly as part of your phrasing.
But it sounds like you're on the right track (pun intended) for learning, which is listen to a lot of the music, and internalize what it feels like.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Reverend
Re: beginner with a question
geez, just re-read my last post... nothing like starting 3 paragraphs in a row with the word "but". Sigh.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Reverend
Re: beginner with a question
melmo
good idea is to break up the reel [via slurring or single bowing] into different "clumps" if you will within an 8 note phrase ie, 3, 3, 2 or 1 1 3 3 or 1 3 2 3 etc....those clumps, especially in the "3s" might slur across the bar line, ie, 4&1 or, another common one would be the 2&3 phrase...this is what gives some swing on the backbeat...but the idea is to get away from a "square" pattern within each grouping of 8 notes as you go through a tune...so that the swing/ emphasis on backbeats [the "2&" "4&" or variations thereon] falls within different "groupings"....ie, odd,odd, even [3,3 2] and etc.
just my 2 cents worth....the Rev and Lonely Hearts may agree or pillory me on this.
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by mtodd
Re: beginner with a question
ie,you slur across the backbeat to get the swing...but it can be done with bow pressure and other tactics as well.
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by mtodd
Re: beginner with a question
It reminds me of O'Rourke's, a tune with an odd A part that I have to upbow the offbeats because of a stra.nge sequence of notes for the fiddle
# Posted on September 30th 2009 by Earl Cameron