I’m new to the site. I have an acoustic guitar, a mandolin, and a whistle. I am rusty on all of these instruments. In general, my melody hand on the mandolin has always handled tunes well, but my picking has always been a struggle. There are a couple of local sessions I’ve checked out that I’m thinking of participating in and start playing again. It seems like there are a wealth of mandolin, guitar and whistle players, and I’m thinking of picking up a new instrument.
I’ve thought about picking up either a fiddle or a concertina. The tuning on the fiddle is the same as a mandolin, so I think I can handle that, I just need to learn how to bow. That would solve my picking problems that I’ve never seemed to completely overcome. Plus, I love the sound of the fiddle. However, if the concertina is a simple enough instrument to pick up, that’s a possibility too. I would welcome input in making a decision.
To learn how to bow you really do need a teacher - seriously. It's too complex a business to do on your own. Internet lessons can help up to a point, but they're only useful if you have the basics under your belt, and that's where you need a live teacher to guide you and point out mistakes, which internet lessons obviously can't do.
Sorry if I appear to be down-putting, but what I've said is the reality.
Bowing is the most difficult part of playing the fiddle, and self-tuition will only result in very little progress and a lot of frustration.
Then I guess I'll stick with my mandoling and whistle for now. If I do pick up a fiddle, I wasn't intending on just jumping into a session right away, and I would definately want lessons. I'm sure my local sessions can point me to a provider. One of the sessions has a slow session two hours before that welcome new players. I used to play jigs well and some reels well years ago, but only played with a couple of friends, never in a session. I appreciate the input.
I think the concertina is a great idea. When's the last time you went to a session with too many concertina players? They're lovely instruments, not too loud even when you're sitting right next to them, and they're always in tune. Go for it!
To be honest a rough idea of your age would be helpful. Despite what some will say some instruments are less suitable for mature learners. Pipes and fiddle being the most obvious.
No Kennedy, I don't, but at 41 it depends what standard Jim would like to achieve. A decent session standard is possible on most instruments but if he wants to reach a good standard then pipes and fiddle are very unikely to be be a sensible choice.
Well, you're kind of hitting home for me, because I was 41 when I started fiddle. I'm not doing too badly, but it will be another couple of years before I'm at a "good standard" (I suspect you and I have a similar definition for that). And Jim already plays mandolin, so that will save him some time.
It all depends on how seriously he wants to devote himself to the instrument. Several hours every day on the fiddle should produce good results in 5 years or so, I would think, depending of course on training, instruction, the external musical environment, knowledge of the form, etc. I do know several people who have tried adding fiddle to their collection of instruments that they play and they usually get nowhere, but I'm convinced it's because they can't give up their other instruments. Fiddle requires a whole different level of focus than most instruments, I think.
As for pipes, who knows. 21 years sounds about right to me!
I think 41 is not too old to pick up the fiddle, especially for somebody who can already play some tunes on mandolin. Depends on how good your ear is (for intonation) and how much time you are willing/able to devote to it.
Also, if cost is a factor, concertinas are not cheap to buy. You probably could get into fiddle for a lot less money.
Though I'd caution against the "all I need is to learn to bow" assessment of fiddling (bowing isn't an afterthought - it's THE thing), if you have the time and inclination to learn fiddle, and are willing to accept frustration every now and again, then learn it. (And do get a teacher, who, among other things, will be able to put your frustration in perspective.) I am younger than you, but took up the fiddle as an adult, after years of thinking that I was too old to learn. A few years and hundreds of hours in, the frustration is beginning to wane, and I'm truly enjoying the sounds I'm producing these days, even as I know how far left I have to go.
A noodly fiddle kept very quiet, or just on reserve for the tunes you do know on it, with some mandolin strumming in between is SO much more tolerable than a beginner concertina. More tolerable than even an intermediate concertina probably.
Find a good inexpensive fiddle and learn some easy tunes, I've met self taught fiddlers with superb bowing. The picking problem could translate to bowing problems though. Have you had mandolin lessons to see if this is actually fixable before reinventing the wheel just to find out it might still have the same flaw?
Thanks for all the input and, more importantly, the honesty. Yes, I’m concerned about the bowing, I don’t know how difficult it will be. For me, fingering the melodies is not a problem, because it’s all about muscle memory and I can commit melodies to muscle memory. For me, picking has always been a challenge. For some reason, picking intervals and timing have always troubled me. I can do so-so at it, but to sound good I continue to stumble. Whistle I can handle because it’s air that’s producing the sound, not my picking hand. This was one of the reasons I asked about concertina, because I wouldn’t experience my picking problem. So, if picking up the bowing is difficult, then maybe fiddle is not a good idea, but on the other hand I love the fiddle and that may just be the thing that keeps me at it. I’ve messed around with a few violins, fingering the tunes I know and doing my best with the bow, and I can get a “voice” out of it, but I just don’t know if I can get the speed without diving into it and finding out.
It's worth bearing in mind that if choose another instrument it's still easy enough to carry on trying to improve on the whistle. If you took 1/2 hour a day, like 1/2 hour before breakfast for example, every day you could make good progress while at the same time reserving more time later for your chosen instrument.
Jim, I agree with the post above about choosing the instrument that most speaks to you, the instrument that chooses you. If it's fiddle, you'll find a way to work through any challenges.
There's little point in learning an instrument only to find out that it's voice doesn't inspire you to play.
Do bear in mind, however, that any timing problems you've had with a picking motion will likely rear their heads in your bowing as well. In fact, a bow doesn't tell you when you change direction (up and down) the way a pick does, so timing is even fuzzier until you feel it. A good teacher can help loads with this sort of thing, though, even if you just take a few lessons to start, or spread out over time.
If you love the sound of fiddle, go for it and don't look back.
Bogman's point is also good--keep playing whistle. The breathing will teach you a lot about how to phrase the tunes with a fiddle bow or concertina bellows.
I picked up a cheap concertina in C/G and learned two reels Gravel Walk and Eileen Curran.
I was actually surprised, It didn't take me long to memorize gravel walk and lead it at a session at full speed (because I already knew the tune) but the other one, because of two flats in the key signature, was nearly impossible to because an appropriate push pull sequence on the bellows was not possible.
You can get a playable fiddle for the price of a night out. I don't know anything about concertinas; but if I were you I would get one of those as well and practise an hour a day on each until one of them takes preference. Don't let anyone talk you out of playing: they were all beginners once. The more instruments you play, as I know to my cost, the less time gets spent on on each of them, but it's great fun, and If you do give up on one, you can at least hang it on the wall.
I came to similar a decision time a couple of years ago. Gravitated to flute (fiddle was the other main 'option'). The need to have and improve an ear for intonation was more important than I anticipated from what I had read. It is easier to be way out of tune than on whistle, but after a while easier to do something about it. I *think* it is probably easier to hear that a fiddle is slightly out of tune than it is a flute. One advantage over fiddle in the very early stages is that beginner noises (if any) are fluffy and innocuous. Later it seems that one is working to make the tone more characterful at a stage when newbie fiddlers seem to be trying to remove in unwanted 'character' from their tone - the neighbours may appreciate one struggle more than the other. Newbie comment. Experts may disagree.
Hi Jim don't be put off by these guys, at 41 you are quite a youngster. I was 53 when I started with the fiddle (age is not a barrier), Its a great instrument and you will NEVER regret taking it up. It will certainly be easier for you having played mandolin before as the fingering is the same. Yes I agree the bowing is the most difficult part and you will most certainly need to take a few lessons. What country are you in by the way, you don't say anything about yourself in your bio.
Sorry , I forgot the main point relevant to the OP. I found it very slow and mentally tiring to sort out problems with my mandolin picking hand whearas my vocal apparatus seem to like messing about with a whistle. That guided me towards embouchure rather than bowing.
Bernie, on no account was I trying to put the poster off any instrument he fancies. But it's important to be realistic about the time and effort required to learn some instruments. I've fancied playing the fiddle myself, and there are a couple of fiddles in the house but I realize that for me the time it would take to learn the fiddle would be much better spent on my strengths, which are wind instruments.
My post asking Jim's age was in order to make a helpful suggestion. At 20 I would say fiddle every time but at 41 and considering he already plays whistle then my suggestion would be work more on the whistle on try flute. That way the effort to being able to play well ratio is much more favourable.
If fiddle is his wish then absolutely go for it but at the same time be realistic about what's needed. Age is not a barrier but the older you get the more important it is to make the right choice.
Bogman's got it right. I went to the fiddle in my 60s after a lifetime playing the cello, one reason being that it was a fairly obvious transition, but even then lessons are needed (and I'm still having them).
Age is certainly an important factor. I wouldn't really consider the whistle/flute now because blown instruments have never been in my background. But if I was going to chose a free-reed, I think a genuine possibility over the concertina/2-row box might be the PA (oh dear! but then, I play English music as well, so it doesn't matter too much ) - because I have a good background in keyboard.
"A noodly fiddle kept very quiet ..... is SO much more tolerable than a beginner concertina"
Hmmm ... this poster must have heard some EXTRAORDINARILY bad beginner concertina players, because there's hardly anything worse than a noodly fiddle played quietly by a beginner, IMHO.
In defense of noodly beginners... was nobody here ever an improver or a learner? Concertina's cut through and can spoil the rhythm unless in very capable hands. If I can't hear the noodler, I don't care what he's doing. He can look as smart or as foolish as he likes, so long as I can't hear it. As for paying gigs, I agree no noodling should be going on. I think the original poster sounded aware of his limitations, and like a generally respectable fellow, and probably understood what I meant by very quiet. Ethical you must have met some extraordinarly good beginner concertina players. It seems to take a lot of closet time for a concetina player to be able to come out in public at all IMHO.
I don't know if my input here is any helpful at all, but I'll tell you about my own experience...
I started playing irish trad music four years ago, and started on the mandolin because I've played the guitar all my life. I love the sound of the mandolin, but I find that at sessions I have to play att full volume all the time to even hear myself, which didn't leave much room for dynamics. Therefore, after a trip to Ireland (I'm Swedish), I decided to learn to play concertina.
I've played concertina (anglo C/G) for a year now, and there are some pros and cons.
Pro - there isn't a very steep barrier to overcome to start playing, like there is on the fiddle. You can play a couple of easy tunes after just a few hours of practice, and still make it sound pretty decent. On the fiddle, everything will sound more or less horrible until you get intonation in, and all those squeaking sounds out.
Other "pros" are that it isn't that common, and is extremly handy to carry around. Only tin whistle is easier. (Or a pair of spoons, which you can just ask for at the pub, but I wouldn't recommend spending your precious time practicing how to become great at playing spoons.)
The downsides to the concertina, if you ask me are...
It's very expensive. A half-decent beginner instrument goes for $300 or so (I highly recommend the Concertina Connection's Rochelle), and the next step would be around $1200. Hard to find shops where you can try out a few too, which is always important when buying an instrument.
Another downside is that, even if there's no beginning barrier to pass, it's still a pretty steep learning curve. You have to find a "smart" way to play every single tune you want to learn, as there's not one way to play all tunes. I won't go into this any further, but you have to put some thought into how you play every tune. (Which is one of the things I love about the concertina - it's a challenge!)
It is also hard to make it sound "irish". Ornamentation on the concertina is a lot harder than on mandolin, fiddle and tin whistle.
These are just my experiences on concertina, and I'm sure alot of people will disagree.
...I also started playing the fiddle in june, and (of course) have some experiences there to share!
First of all - It's one heck of an instrument! It offers for soo much dynamics and feel to your playing. Having played the mandolin is definately a big plus, as you already know the fingering. You have to be alot more precise though, to learn intonation. It's not *that* hard though. I'm completely self-taught, only played for a few months (practiced for hours and hours a day though) and I have no problems with intonation anymore, apart from higher notes on the E-string. The B on the E-string is something I just can't get right when playing a tune...
My bowing technique though, that's another story. It's hard. Very hard. I have horrible technique, and since I'm playing for hours a day it's starting to hurt my back. Bowing is definately the hardest part to learn on the fiddle, and is nothing you get for free from playing the mandolin. I find all the challenges on the concertina to be fun to deal with, but practicing bowing technique... That's not a fun challenge, if you ask me. I really need to see a teacher about that, and I will.
When I first started playing the fiddle, I could only play for 20 minutes at the time. Not because I got bored or tired, but because it sounded so horrible. I felt physically ill from my own playing, and I could only stand it for so long. Took a short break, and then got back at it. Now, when I got the hang of intonation and most of the squeaking, it's boredom or lack of time that ends my training sessions.
To sum it up:
Concertina is expensive to start out with, but it's fun. It's a great challenge, and never stops to be, but it's a very... I never ever use this term, but it's just a "cool" instrument, if you ask me. It's very small, it's pretty rare, and it has alot of character.
Violin is a LOT cheaper to get a half-decent beginner instrument, and there are a LOT more teachers available out there. It's easier to make it sound "irish", once you get over the initial barrier. You have a big advantage if you can play the mandolin, as you already know how to play the tunes with your left hand. And, to me, the fiddle offers more dynamics, which I find very important for an instrument to stay interesting.
Ahh, sorry for all these posts, but one thing that struck me when reading your post was the "flute". I wasn't surprised when I saw it pointed out later, as it makes perfect sense. And I completely agree that you rarely hear people complain about there being too many flutes at a session.
It's a bit more expensive to get your first instrument than the fiddle, but has a different beginner's barrier than both concertina and fiddle. Embrochure will be your bowing technique, and will be your life-long challenge. Playing loud, with a clear tone, for a very long time, is all about embrochure. You have to keep playing more or less actively for as long as you plan on calling yourself a flutist, as embrochure fades with time.
The sound of a wooden irish flute beats all else, if you ask me. Matt Molloy for president!
I'd just like to say that Tom Paley took up the fiddle in his '40's, and now, at 80, he's pretty good !
Mind you though, it was painful to hear at first.
You really have to be motivated to get somewhere on the fiddle.
It's surprising how popular it is; I guess a lot of people have violin lessons
in school, so it's not that hard for them pick up later. It has been absolute
torture, but I am getting better and better so I can't quit now. If you're
taking it up without any previous violin experience, be prepared to
put in several years before it starts sounding like anything.
Wow, my first post on this site seems to have been a hit. I appreciate all the advice. Believe me, it all helps tremendously. I have paid particular attention to the flute suggestions. I am just starting to get back into playing, and intend to hit my local session(s) with at least a 3 or 4 mastered, on mandolin either-or flute. I love the mandolin, as well as bouzouki/octave mandolin (same thing if you ask me), but the faster tunes I have a problem with (back to that picking problem I mentioned before). I tend to play jigs on the mandolin and reels on the whistle, because I still struggle getting my speed up on the former, but I’ll keep practicing. I love the sound of flute, and honestly I don’t know why it’s never occurred to me, so I think you all may have pushed me that way effectively and you can feel proud. As for fiddle, I am realistic, but I didn’t realize the bowing would be quite as big a factor as most of you have brought up. I’m not giving up on it, but I’m pursuing a graduate degree right now and should probably hold off until that’s over with, based on the time and dedication that instrument will take. Meanwhile, the whistle/flute route should prove fruitful and provide some forgiveness in the noodling department.
Thank again for all the input. One posted asked for a bio, so I will post one soon.
well, I'll open up that can of worms. If by noodling you mean playing a variety of notes, hoping most are at least in the same key, as everyone else then ~ no ~ rather than be forgiven someone needs to say you might want to listen more closely before you blow.
If by noodling you mean playing a drone note or drone notes then you might tend to find some support.
Some of us are listening to even the quietest of players. Other than that I agree with you ~ love the sound of flute. ;)
I had not read through the entire thread. Elanor, I read your comment about improvers. Yes, a learning session is more forgiving. How can you ever learn if you never make mistakes?
Having said that, a good player is not the one who never makes mistakes. A good player makes mistakes, recognizes them, & improves.
I would rather have a better player hear me & let me know if it does not sound good than to have someone not hear me & assume I am doing fine.
Random, by noodling I meant making mistakes or slight inaccuracies in the tune while staying basically on track. I would never just jump into a tune without at least having a basic melody and not without knowing the mood of the session. The local session I am thinking of attending has a slow session two hours prior to the faster session. It's a very open session as well and even the fast session seems to be a touch slower than full speed. I plan to attend in a couple of weeks when I have about 3-4 of the common tunes I've heard there down, either on mandolin or whistle.
If flute's yer game (and it's a good one!), you'll find tips and support at http://www.forums.chiffandfipple.com
And you'll find a list of makers and more here: http://www.firescribble.net/flute/
There are some very good flutes available for less that $500 that would do you well for years. In alphabetical order, check out Casey Burns' folk flute, Copley flutes (the all wood or delrin model), and Rob Forbes' delrin flute. Great bang for the buck, all.
Noodling - nooooooooooo. At a beginner session maybe - if it's known to be accepted. This has been discussed many times but for me, I absolutely hate it unless it's by a very, very good player. Especially if there are only one or two other instruments playing the tune. Anyone who doesn't know the tune properly is just pi$$ing over someone elses playing. It's the absolute height of session ignorance. There was some of it going on over a visitors playing at our session last Thursday and I was highly embarrassed for our normally nice session.
Clearly, there is a misunderstanding of terms on my part. I did look at the Noodling 101 and have now been clarified. I was thinking of it more along jam session terms from my rock and roll days. I completely agree. I have no intention of joining in on whistle or mandolin melody unless I have at least a passing familiarity with the tune, and then only with discretion. I'm going to the slow session this week mostly to get a feel for the more common tunes they play, then I'll go back for the main session when I have a few under my belt. I'm practicing 5 days a week for 30 minutes or more so I should have that taken care of in 2-3 weeks. I've got a good feel for learning by ear and intonation and only use sheet music as a loose guide.
No effort to learn the tunes is wasted. What is learned on one instrument can be transferred to another, once you have the mechanics of the new instrument down. I myself learn tunes easiest on the whistle, even though it is the accordion that I would like to be my major instrument (eventually). So take your time in making your decision, and enjoy the ride!
Thanks for posting that Random. I stand corrected I guess. I had in my mind lumped anyone who is attempting to play a tune that they do not know well enough to mimmick very well, as noodlers. There is a "learning on the fly" class of noodler apparently? I suppose that is what I meant by "very quietly noodling to oneself".... That whole random note chords and harmonizing stuff is just a party foul, a social crime, and I actually held noodlers in higher regard, until I found out that is what some of the folks on here mean by noodlers. Whew.
That said, what really makes my blood pressure rise, when somone thinks they can learn on the fly, and noodles over the person in the group who has kindly decided to share a new tune and is playing it out slowly, and clearly for the rest to hear.. Patience is a virtue. If someone has taken the time to learn a tune that is new to the group, and is playing it out nice and clear let them play it alone! So all can hear... gripe gripe I've had my moments of ill will towards noodlers...like most on here.
BOgman:
>Noodling - nooooooooooo. At a beginner session maybe - if >it's known to be accepted. This has been discussed many >times but for me, I absolutely hate it unless it's by a very, very good player. Especially if there are only one or two other instruments playing the tune. Anyone who doesn't know the >tune properly is just pi$$ing over someone elses playing. It's >the absolute height of session ignorance. There was some >of it going on over a visitors playing at our session last >Thursday and I was highly embarrassed for our normally >nice session
I couldn't agree more with everything you have said there Bogman.
Resist, resist, resist the temptation to pick up tunes on the fly at a session unless you play an instrument with the possibilty of near zero volume (that is fiddle and other strings I'm afraid folks, probably just thumb plucked gently). No matter how good you think you are at just picking tunes up on the fly you will 99% certain be trampling the tune into the dust and almost certainly much more loud and obtrusive than you think you are.
What is wrong with just listening? or chatting to your neighbour?
Noodling in the sesne that Bogman describes is a terrible self indulgence.
Chris, some of the tunes we play in session I have only heard in session (no recordings). So I am a bit confused about why I am not allowed to pick up tunes in session.
if you can pick them up without playing out loud then fine.
But playing along audibly with a tune that you don't know, or half know, or know a different version of from the person starting the set is bad form.
Ask someone to show the tune again away from the session or during a lull, or pick it up by trying to play along very quietly, assuming that is possible on your instrument. If you play pipes or whistle or free reed instruments one of their limitations is that it isn't possible to play along unobtrusively while picking up tunes.
If the session is specifically for tune learning, or the culture of the session encourages playinng along with tunes you don't know, then fine go ahead.
Otherwise the person doing the playing along is placing their own wish to learn a tune they don't know above the intregity of the session and the (likely) wishes of the other sessioneers that their tune (or the one they are listening to) not be derailed or undermined by random noodling. Even if you manage to finish the set without it collapsing, it takes all the pleasure out of a tune when the person next to you is determinedly playing at the same time in an attempt to pick it up. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, feel free to disagree, this is a reather selfish way to behave.
all I can add is that I always, at the very least, listen to the tune played once through. If am not getting the tune in my head, then ~ I continue to listen. But there are plenty of times (O.K. ~ just a few ) when a tune is new (or relatively new) to me & I am able to pick it up in session. Most of my mates are able to recognize when myself (or others) want to hear the tune more then just 3 times through. So, instead of going onto the next jig or reel, the person who started the tune will keep it going (4 or 5 x's before changing). It simply gives me more time to get a feel for how the tune is played * in session*. At that point I only play if I know it's the tune I'm playing & not me imagining I get it.
I'm making no claim of being able to pick up the majority of tunes on the fly. Just saying that when I do it is one of the reason I like playing with my mates.
Hopefully I'm using my ears in a better way everyday.
cheers!
Instrument Decision
Instrument Decision
Hello,
I’m new to the site. I have an acoustic guitar, a mandolin, and a whistle. I am rusty on all of these instruments. In general, my melody hand on the mandolin has always handled tunes well, but my picking has always been a struggle. There are a couple of local sessions I’ve checked out that I’m thinking of participating in and start playing again. It seems like there are a wealth of mandolin, guitar and whistle players, and I’m thinking of picking up a new instrument.
I’ve thought about picking up either a fiddle or a concertina. The tuning on the fiddle is the same as a mandolin, so I think I can handle that, I just need to learn how to bow. That would solve my picking problems that I’ve never seemed to completely overcome. Plus, I love the sound of the fiddle. However, if the concertina is a simple enough instrument to pick up, that’s a possibility too. I would welcome input in making a decision.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
Well, if you're thinking of taking up the fiddle - don't go joining in any sessions 'til you've got a bit of a handle on it.
They don't like it ya know!!
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Instrument Decision
To learn how to bow you really do need a teacher - seriously. It's too complex a business to do on your own. Internet lessons can help up to a point, but they're only useful if you have the basics under your belt, and that's where you need a live teacher to guide you and point out mistakes, which internet lessons obviously can't do.
Sorry if I appear to be down-putting, but what I've said is the reality.
Bowing is the most difficult part of playing the fiddle, and self-tuition will only result in very little progress and a lot of frustration.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Instrument Decision
Go for the fiddle. I’ve conducted a series of scientific experiments and concluded that the concertina cannot be played.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Instrument Decision
Then I guess I'll stick with my mandoling and whistle for now. If I do pick up a fiddle, I wasn't intending on just jumping into a session right away, and I would definately want lessons. I'm sure my local sessions can point me to a provider. One of the sessions has a slow session two hours before that welcome new players. I used to play jigs well and some reels well years ago, but only played with a couple of friends, never in a session. I appreciate the input.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
I think the concertina is a great idea. When's the last time you went to a session with too many concertina players? They're lovely instruments, not too loud even when you're sitting right next to them, and they're always in tune. Go for it!
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Instrument Decision
Why not try the pipes if you have the time.
What is it...7 years to learn, 7 years to practice, 7 years to play, and then you die
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Instrument Decision
I meant to put one of these at the end
was intended as a light hearted post on a Friday afternoon
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Instrument Decision
To be honest a rough idea of your age would be helpful. Despite what some will say some instruments are less suitable for mature learners. Pipes and fiddle being the most obvious.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by bogman
Re: Instrument Decision
Bogman, whaddya think, the guy is 75 or something?
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Instrument Decision
I'm 41 years old.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
No Kennedy, I don't, but at 41 it depends what standard Jim would like to achieve. A decent session standard is possible on most instruments but if he wants to reach a good standard then pipes and fiddle are very unikely to be be a sensible choice.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by bogman
Re: Instrument Decision
Play around with them all. Stick with the one or two that you keep going back to. Put the others on hold. There's no time limit.
Measure your progress by your enjoyment and willingness to join in.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by EnDaC
Re: Instrument Decision
Well, you're kind of hitting home for me, because I was 41 when I started fiddle. I'm not doing too badly, but it will be another couple of years before I'm at a "good standard" (I suspect you and I have a similar definition for that). And Jim already plays mandolin, so that will save him some time.
It all depends on how seriously he wants to devote himself to the instrument. Several hours every day on the fiddle should produce good results in 5 years or so, I would think, depending of course on training, instruction, the external musical environment, knowledge of the form, etc. I do know several people who have tried adding fiddle to their collection of instruments that they play and they usually get nowhere, but I'm convinced it's because they can't give up their other instruments. Fiddle requires a whole different level of focus than most instruments, I think.
As for pipes, who knows. 21 years sounds about right to me!
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Instrument Decision
I think 41 is not too old to pick up the fiddle, especially for somebody who can already play some tunes on mandolin. Depends on how good your ear is (for intonation) and how much time you are willing/able to devote to it.
Also, if cost is a factor, concertinas are not cheap to buy. You probably could get into fiddle for a lot less money.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Instrument Decision
Jim, what instrument calls to you?
Though I'd caution against the "all I need is to learn to bow" assessment of fiddling (bowing isn't an afterthought - it's THE thing), if you have the time and inclination to learn fiddle, and are willing to accept frustration every now and again, then learn it. (And do get a teacher, who, among other things, will be able to put your frustration in perspective.) I am younger than you, but took up the fiddle as an adult, after years of thinking that I was too old to learn. A few years and hundreds of hours in, the frustration is beginning to wane, and I'm truly enjoying the sounds I'm producing these days, even as I know how far left I have to go.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Instrument Decision
A noodly fiddle kept very quiet, or just on reserve for the tunes you do know on it, with some mandolin strumming in between is SO much more tolerable than a beginner concertina. More tolerable than even an intermediate concertina probably.
Find a good inexpensive fiddle and learn some easy tunes, I've met self taught fiddlers with superb bowing. The picking problem could translate to bowing problems though. Have you had mandolin lessons to see if this is actually fixable before reinventing the wheel just to find out it might still have the same flaw?
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Instrument Decision
Thanks for all the input and, more importantly, the honesty. Yes, I’m concerned about the bowing, I don’t know how difficult it will be. For me, fingering the melodies is not a problem, because it’s all about muscle memory and I can commit melodies to muscle memory. For me, picking has always been a challenge. For some reason, picking intervals and timing have always troubled me. I can do so-so at it, but to sound good I continue to stumble. Whistle I can handle because it’s air that’s producing the sound, not my picking hand. This was one of the reasons I asked about concertina, because I wouldn’t experience my picking problem. So, if picking up the bowing is difficult, then maybe fiddle is not a good idea, but on the other hand I love the fiddle and that may just be the thing that keeps me at it. I’ve messed around with a few violins, fingering the tunes I know and doing my best with the bow, and I can get a “voice” out of it, but I just don’t know if I can get the speed without diving into it and finding out.
Anyway, thanks for all the input.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
Thanks Elanor. The last thing I want to do at a session is annoy
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
It's worth bearing in mind that if choose another instrument it's still easy enough to carry on trying to improve on the whistle. If you took 1/2 hour a day, like 1/2 hour before breakfast for example, every day you could make good progress while at the same time reserving more time later for your chosen instrument.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by bogman
Re: Instrument Decision
Jim, I agree with the post above about choosing the instrument that most speaks to you, the instrument that chooses you. If it's fiddle, you'll find a way to work through any challenges.
There's little point in learning an instrument only to find out that it's voice doesn't inspire you to play.
Do bear in mind, however, that any timing problems you've had with a picking motion will likely rear their heads in your bowing as well. In fact, a bow doesn't tell you when you change direction (up and down) the way a pick does, so timing is even fuzzier until you feel it. A good teacher can help loads with this sort of thing, though, even if you just take a few lessons to start, or spread out over time.
If you love the sound of fiddle, go for it and don't look back.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Instrument Decision
Bogman's point is also good--keep playing whistle. The breathing will teach you a lot about how to phrase the tunes with a fiddle bow or concertina bellows.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Instrument Decision
Why not the flute? Seems a logical transition from the whistle.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Strummer007
Re: Instrument Decision
Hmm. You know, I don't know why flute didn't occur to me. That's an excellent point.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
Flute is good. Hard to have too many flute players.
# Posted on September 25th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Instrument Decision
I thought I was going to be saying something new, but others are already there - think about the flute!
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Lingpupa
Re: Instrument Decision
I picked up a cheap concertina in C/G and learned two reels Gravel Walk and Eileen Curran.
I was actually surprised, It didn't take me long to memorize gravel walk and lead it at a session at full speed (because I already knew the tune) but the other one, because of two flats in the key signature, was nearly impossible to because an appropriate push pull sequence on the bellows was not possible.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Instrument Decision
You can get a playable fiddle for the price of a night out. I don't know anything about concertinas; but if I were you I would get one of those as well and practise an hour a day on each until one of them takes preference. Don't let anyone talk you out of playing: they were all beginners once. The more instruments you play, as I know to my cost, the less time gets spent on on each of them, but it's great fun, and If you do give up on one, you can at least hang it on the wall.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by gam
Re: Instrument Decision
I came to similar a decision time a couple of years ago. Gravitated to flute (fiddle was the other main 'option'). The need to have and improve an ear for intonation was more important than I anticipated from what I had read. It is easier to be way out of tune than on whistle, but after a while easier to do something about it. I *think* it is probably easier to hear that a fiddle is slightly out of tune than it is a flute. One advantage over fiddle in the very early stages is that beginner noises (if any) are fluffy and innocuous. Later it seems that one is working to make the tone more characterful at a stage when newbie fiddlers seem to be trying to remove in unwanted 'character' from their tone - the neighbours may appreciate one struggle more than the other. Newbie comment. Experts may disagree.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by david_h
Re: Instrument Decision
Hi Jim don't be put off by these guys, at 41 you are quite a youngster. I was 53 when I started with the fiddle (age is not a barrier), Its a great instrument and you will NEVER regret taking it up. It will certainly be easier for you having played mandolin before as the fingering is the same. Yes I agree the bowing is the most difficult part and you will most certainly need to take a few lessons. What country are you in by the way, you don't say anything about yourself in your bio.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Bernie
Re: Instrument Decision
Sorry , I forgot the main point relevant to the OP. I found it very slow and mentally tiring to sort out problems with my mandolin picking hand whearas my vocal apparatus seem to like messing about with a whistle. That guided me towards embouchure rather than bowing.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by david_h
Re: Instrument Decision
Bernie, on no account was I trying to put the poster off any instrument he fancies. But it's important to be realistic about the time and effort required to learn some instruments. I've fancied playing the fiddle myself, and there are a couple of fiddles in the house but I realize that for me the time it would take to learn the fiddle would be much better spent on my strengths, which are wind instruments.
My post asking Jim's age was in order to make a helpful suggestion. At 20 I would say fiddle every time but at 41 and considering he already plays whistle then my suggestion would be work more on the whistle on try flute. That way the effort to being able to play well ratio is much more favourable.
If fiddle is his wish then absolutely go for it but at the same time be realistic about what's needed. Age is not a barrier but the older you get the more important it is to make the right choice.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by bogman
Re: Instrument Decision
Bogman's got it right. I went to the fiddle in my 60s after a lifetime playing the cello, one reason being that it was a fairly obvious transition, but even then lessons are needed (and I'm still having them).
) - because I have a good background in keyboard.
Age is certainly an important factor. I wouldn't really consider the whistle/flute now because blown instruments have never been in my background. But if I was going to chose a free-reed, I think a genuine possibility over the concertina/2-row box might be the PA (oh dear! but then, I play English music as well, so it doesn't matter too much
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Instrument Decision
It boils down to taking advantage of your strengths.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Instrument Decision
An important caveat:
"A noodly fiddle kept very quiet ..... is SO much more tolerable than a beginner concertina"
Hmmm ... this poster must have heard some EXTRAORDINARILY bad beginner concertina players, because there's hardly anything worse than a noodly fiddle played quietly by a beginner, IMHO.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Instrument Decision
Well said E. B., one is as bad as the other, ...... in fact:
All Noodlers are an abomination! ..... A Plague On Both Their Houses!
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Instrument Decision
N.B. "The Most Simple Modern Methods: How to Play the Concertina"
http://www.concertina.com/maccann-duet/howtoplay/Maccann-How-to-Play-the-Concertina-1902-MQ.pdf
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Instrument Decision
In defense of noodly beginners... was nobody here ever an improver or a learner? Concertina's cut through and can spoil the rhythm unless in very capable hands. If I can't hear the noodler, I don't care what he's doing. He can look as smart or as foolish as he likes, so long as I can't hear it. As for paying gigs, I agree no noodling should be going on. I think the original poster sounded aware of his limitations, and like a generally respectable fellow, and probably understood what I meant by very quiet. Ethical you must have met some extraordinarly good beginner concertina players. It seems to take a lot of closet time for a concetina player to be able to come out in public at all IMHO.
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Instrument Decision
(Grrenman's evil alter-ego...)
Why not have a go at the bodhrán? Everyone else does.
(()/
# Posted on September 26th 2009 by greenman
Re: Instrument Decision
I don't know if my input here is any helpful at all, but I'll tell you about my own experience...
I started playing irish trad music four years ago, and started on the mandolin because I've played the guitar all my life. I love the sound of the mandolin, but I find that at sessions I have to play att full volume all the time to even hear myself, which didn't leave much room for dynamics. Therefore, after a trip to Ireland (I'm Swedish), I decided to learn to play concertina.
I've played concertina (anglo C/G) for a year now, and there are some pros and cons.
Pro - there isn't a very steep barrier to overcome to start playing, like there is on the fiddle. You can play a couple of easy tunes after just a few hours of practice, and still make it sound pretty decent. On the fiddle, everything will sound more or less horrible until you get intonation in, and all those squeaking sounds out.
Other "pros" are that it isn't that common, and is extremly handy to carry around. Only tin whistle is easier. (Or a pair of spoons, which you can just ask for at the pub, but I wouldn't recommend spending your precious time practicing how to become great at playing spoons.)
The downsides to the concertina, if you ask me are...
It's very expensive. A half-decent beginner instrument goes for $300 or so (I highly recommend the Concertina Connection's Rochelle), and the next step would be around $1200. Hard to find shops where you can try out a few too, which is always important when buying an instrument.
Another downside is that, even if there's no beginning barrier to pass, it's still a pretty steep learning curve. You have to find a "smart" way to play every single tune you want to learn, as there's not one way to play all tunes. I won't go into this any further, but you have to put some thought into how you play every tune. (Which is one of the things I love about the concertina - it's a challenge!)
It is also hard to make it sound "irish". Ornamentation on the concertina is a lot harder than on mandolin, fiddle and tin whistle.
These are just my experiences on concertina, and I'm sure alot of people will disagree.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Gusten
Re: Instrument Decision
...I also started playing the fiddle in june, and (of course) have some experiences there to share!
First of all - It's one heck of an instrument! It offers for soo much dynamics and feel to your playing. Having played the mandolin is definately a big plus, as you already know the fingering. You have to be alot more precise though, to learn intonation. It's not *that* hard though. I'm completely self-taught, only played for a few months (practiced for hours and hours a day though) and I have no problems with intonation anymore, apart from higher notes on the E-string. The B on the E-string is something I just can't get right when playing a tune...
My bowing technique though, that's another story. It's hard. Very hard. I have horrible technique, and since I'm playing for hours a day it's starting to hurt my back. Bowing is definately the hardest part to learn on the fiddle, and is nothing you get for free from playing the mandolin. I find all the challenges on the concertina to be fun to deal with, but practicing bowing technique... That's not a fun challenge, if you ask me. I really need to see a teacher about that, and I will.
When I first started playing the fiddle, I could only play for 20 minutes at the time. Not because I got bored or tired, but because it sounded so horrible. I felt physically ill from my own playing, and I could only stand it for so long. Took a short break, and then got back at it. Now, when I got the hang of intonation and most of the squeaking, it's boredom or lack of time that ends my training sessions.
To sum it up:
Concertina is expensive to start out with, but it's fun. It's a great challenge, and never stops to be, but it's a very... I never ever use this term, but it's just a "cool" instrument, if you ask me. It's very small, it's pretty rare, and it has alot of character.
Violin is a LOT cheaper to get a half-decent beginner instrument, and there are a LOT more teachers available out there. It's easier to make it sound "irish", once you get over the initial barrier. You have a big advantage if you can play the mandolin, as you already know how to play the tunes with your left hand. And, to me, the fiddle offers more dynamics, which I find very important for an instrument to stay interesting.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Gusten
Re: Instrument Decision
Ahh, sorry for all these posts, but one thing that struck me when reading your post was the "flute". I wasn't surprised when I saw it pointed out later, as it makes perfect sense. And I completely agree that you rarely hear people complain about there being too many flutes at a session.
It's a bit more expensive to get your first instrument than the fiddle, but has a different beginner's barrier than both concertina and fiddle. Embrochure will be your bowing technique, and will be your life-long challenge. Playing loud, with a clear tone, for a very long time, is all about embrochure. You have to keep playing more or less actively for as long as you plan on calling yourself a flutist, as embrochure fades with time.
The sound of a wooden irish flute beats all else, if you ask me. Matt Molloy for president!
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Gusten
Re: Instrument Decision
I'd just like to say that Tom Paley took up the fiddle in his '40's, and now, at 80, he's pretty good !
Mind you though, it was painful to hear at first.
# Posted on September 27th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Instrument Decision
You really have to be motivated to get somewhere on the fiddle.
It's surprising how popular it is; I guess a lot of people have violin lessons
in school, so it's not that hard for them pick up later. It has been absolute
torture, but I am getting better and better so I can't quit now. If you're
taking it up without any previous violin experience, be prepared to
put in several years before it starts sounding like anything.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Hup
Re: Instrument Decision
Why has no one suggested pipes? I can't imagine why not.......
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Instrument Decision
Wow, my first post on this site seems to have been a hit. I appreciate all the advice. Believe me, it all helps tremendously. I have paid particular attention to the flute suggestions. I am just starting to get back into playing, and intend to hit my local session(s) with at least a 3 or 4 mastered, on mandolin either-or flute. I love the mandolin, as well as bouzouki/octave mandolin (same thing if you ask me), but the faster tunes I have a problem with (back to that picking problem I mentioned before). I tend to play jigs on the mandolin and reels on the whistle, because I still struggle getting my speed up on the former, but I’ll keep practicing. I love the sound of flute, and honestly I don’t know why it’s never occurred to me, so I think you all may have pushed me that way effectively and you can feel proud. As for fiddle, I am realistic, but I didn’t realize the bowing would be quite as big a factor as most of you have brought up. I’m not giving up on it, but I’m pursuing a graduate degree right now and should probably hold off until that’s over with, based on the time and dedication that instrument will take. Meanwhile, the whistle/flute route should prove fruitful and provide some forgiveness in the noodling department.
Thank again for all the input. One posted asked for a bio, so I will post one soon.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
well, I'll open up that can of worms. If by noodling you mean playing a variety of notes, hoping most are at least in the same key, as everyone else then ~ no ~ rather than be forgiven someone needs to say you might want to listen more closely before you blow.
If by noodling you mean playing a drone note or drone notes then you might tend to find some support.
Some of us are listening to even the quietest of players. Other than that I agree with you ~ love the sound of flute. ;)
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Random_notes
~
I had not read through the entire thread. Elanor, I read your comment about improvers. Yes, a learning session is more forgiving. How can you ever learn if you never make mistakes?
Having said that, a good player is not the one who never makes mistakes. A good player makes mistakes, recognizes them, & improves.
I would rather have a better player hear me & let me know if it does not sound good than to have someone not hear me & assume I am doing fine.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Instrument Decision
Random, by noodling I meant making mistakes or slight inaccuracies in the tune while staying basically on track. I would never just jump into a tune without at least having a basic melody and not without knowing the mood of the session. The local session I am thinking of attending has a slow session two hours prior to the faster session. It's a very open session as well and even the fast session seems to be a touch slower than full speed. I plan to attend in a couple of weeks when I have about 3-4 of the common tunes I've heard there down, either on mandolin or whistle.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
Fair play! Though, *noodling* has been received mixed reviews on the forum.
"Traditional Noodling 101"
April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17549
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Random_notes
~
thanks c._ the above thread was better than I had remembered.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Instrument Decision
While you're working on whistle, here's a great resource: http://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/brosteve/
If flute's yer game (and it's a good one!), you'll find tips and support at http://www.forums.chiffandfipple.com
And you'll find a list of makers and more here:
http://www.firescribble.net/flute/
There are some very good flutes available for less that $500 that would do you well for years. In alphabetical order, check out Casey Burns' folk flute, Copley flutes (the all wood or delrin model), and Rob Forbes' delrin flute. Great bang for the buck, all.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Tintin
Re: Instrument Decision
Noodling - nooooooooooo. At a beginner session maybe - if it's known to be accepted. This has been discussed many times but for me, I absolutely hate it unless it's by a very, very good player. Especially if there are only one or two other instruments playing the tune. Anyone who doesn't know the tune properly is just pi$$ing over someone elses playing. It's the absolute height of session ignorance. There was some of it going on over a visitors playing at our session last Thursday and I was highly embarrassed for our normally nice session.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by bogman
Re: Instrument Decision
Clearly, there is a misunderstanding of terms on my part. I did look at the Noodling 101 and have now been clarified. I was thinking of it more along jam session terms from my rock and roll days. I completely agree. I have no intention of joining in on whistle or mandolin melody unless I have at least a passing familiarity with the tune, and then only with discretion. I'm going to the slow session this week mostly to get a feel for the more common tunes they play, then I'll go back for the main session when I have a few under my belt. I'm practicing 5 days a week for 30 minutes or more so I should have that taken care of in 2-3 weeks. I've got a good feel for learning by ear and intonation and only use sheet music as a loose guide.
# Posted on September 28th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Instrument Decision
No effort to learn the tunes is wasted. What is learned on one instrument can be transferred to another, once you have the mechanics of the new instrument down. I myself learn tunes easiest on the whistle, even though it is the accordion that I would like to be my major instrument (eventually). So take your time in making your decision, and enjoy the ride!
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Instrument Decision
Thanks for posting that Random. I stand corrected I guess. I had in my mind lumped anyone who is attempting to play a tune that they do not know well enough to mimmick very well, as noodlers. There is a "learning on the fly" class of noodler apparently? I suppose that is what I meant by "very quietly noodling to oneself".... That whole random note chords and harmonizing stuff is just a party foul, a social crime, and I actually held noodlers in higher regard, until I found out that is what some of the folks on here mean by noodlers. Whew.
That said, what really makes my blood pressure rise, when somone thinks they can learn on the fly, and noodles over the person in the group who has kindly decided to share a new tune and is playing it out slowly, and clearly for the rest to hear.. Patience is a virtue. If someone has taken the time to learn a tune that is new to the group, and is playing it out nice and clear let them play it alone! So all can hear... gripe gripe I've had my moments of ill will towards noodlers...like most on here.
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Instrument Decision
BOgman:
>Noodling - nooooooooooo. At a beginner session maybe - if >it's known to be accepted. This has been discussed many >times but for me, I absolutely hate it unless it's by a very, very good player. Especially if there are only one or two other instruments playing the tune. Anyone who doesn't know the >tune properly is just pi$$ing over someone elses playing. It's >the absolute height of session ignorance. There was some >of it going on over a visitors playing at our session last >Thursday and I was highly embarrassed for our normally >nice session
I couldn't agree more with everything you have said there Bogman.
Resist, resist, resist the temptation to pick up tunes on the fly at a session unless you play an instrument with the possibilty of near zero volume (that is fiddle and other strings I'm afraid folks, probably just thumb plucked gently). No matter how good you think you are at just picking tunes up on the fly you will 99% certain be trampling the tune into the dust and almost certainly much more loud and obtrusive than you think you are.
What is wrong with just listening? or chatting to your neighbour?
Noodling in the sesne that Bogman describes is a terrible self indulgence.
- Chris
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Instrument Decision
Chris, some of the tunes we play in session I have only heard in session (no recordings). So I am a bit confused about why I am not allowed to pick up tunes in session.
# Posted on September 29th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Instrument Decision
if you can pick them up without playing out loud then fine.
But playing along audibly with a tune that you don't know, or half know, or know a different version of from the person starting the set is bad form.
Ask someone to show the tune again away from the session or during a lull, or pick it up by trying to play along very quietly, assuming that is possible on your instrument. If you play pipes or whistle or free reed instruments one of their limitations is that it isn't possible to play along unobtrusively while picking up tunes.
If the session is specifically for tune learning, or the culture of the session encourages playinng along with tunes you don't know, then fine go ahead.
Otherwise the person doing the playing along is placing their own wish to learn a tune they don't know above the intregity of the session and the (likely) wishes of the other sessioneers that their tune (or the one they are listening to) not be derailed or undermined by random noodling. Even if you manage to finish the set without it collapsing, it takes all the pleasure out of a tune when the person next to you is determinedly playing at the same time in an attempt to pick it up. In my opinion, and it is only my opinion, feel free to disagree, this is a reather selfish way to behave.
- Chris
# Posted on September 30th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Instrument Decision
all I can add is that I always, at the very least, listen to the tune played once through. If am not getting the tune in my head, then ~ I continue to listen. But there are plenty of times (O.K. ~ just a few ) when a tune is new (or relatively new) to me & I am able to pick it up in session. Most of my mates are able to recognize when myself (or others) want to hear the tune more then just 3 times through. So, instead of going onto the next jig or reel, the person who started the tune will keep it going (4 or 5 x's before changing). It simply gives me more time to get a feel for how the tune is played * in session*. At that point I only play if I know it's the tune I'm playing & not me imagining I get it.
I'm making no claim of being able to pick up the majority of tunes on the fly. Just saying that when I do it is one of the reason I like playing with my mates.
Hopefully I'm using my ears in a better way everyday.
cheers!
# Posted on September 30th 2009 by Random_notes