Following on from th thread on 'Dan the Man with the Khaen' http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22683
I was just wondering if anyone here had been to watch (or competed in) the 'miscellaneous instruments' competition at a fleadh cheoil. I believe, when Mick (London) O'Connor won a title on banjo in 1971, he was in the miscellaneous category - presumably there were not yet enough tenor banjo players on the scene to warrant making it a category of its own. Josie McDermott also won in 1964 on alto sax - which still does not have its own category (not algether surprisingly).
But just how 'miscellaneous' are the instuments that enter? Has there ever been an epinette? A sackbut? A saw? A stylophone? A tea-chest bass?
Or is it predominantly those instruments that just don't quite fit into the main categories - some kind of non-anglo concertina, for example, a whistle with a thumbhole or a 3-row button accordion?
I had a bit of a google around and came upon a few sites setting out the fleadh cheoil rules. I was mildly disappointed to read that 'Amplified instruments are not permited in any category' - not that I feel that amplification would in any way enhance the music produced by any of the 'traditional' instruments - but I have alway felt that the electric guitar, properly handled, could have potential as a serious trad instrument. (Then again, in the wrong hands, it could be a disaster graver that the loudest, most brutishly squeezed piano-box.) I realise this assertion might compromise whatever standing I might have on this site.
Stringed instruments are 'amplified' by means of a soundbox. Flutes and whistles by the dimension and shape of the bore. The only 'unamplified' instruments I can think of offhand would be bones and spoons... although I have a mischevious feeling more may occur later.
Might the solo competition programme on Cavan contain only three categories in each age division. Bones, spoons and misc?
Of course, a bodhran with a reeeeally thin rim would be essentially unamplified as well...
4. Electronic or amplified instruments are not permitted in any category.
- This does seem to imply *electrically amplified*, by association with 'electronic'. But it doesn't say explicitly. A lot of winners could be stripped of their medals, if CCE were taken to task over this. Either way, it precludes the theremin and stylophone (but not the wobble-board).
14. Including competitions for miscellaneous instruments, compettors are
allowed to compete on one instrument only in any one competition.
- That precludes Cathal McConnell with his two-whistle trick, then - or someone who accompanies themself on guitar while playing harmonica.
From the list of categories:
16. Miscellaneous Instruments (any instrument not listed above) a/b/c/d
You can probably work out what most of the other 15 categories are. But there's nothing in there to suggest that a trombone, a swannee whistle, a melodica or Dan with his Khaen would not qualify. The only limiting factor seems to be rule 2:
2. Only traditional Irish music will be accepted in all competiitons.
...which is notoriously open to interpretation. Are tunes known to be of Scots or English origin permitted? Is Tommy Walsh's 'Inisheer' permitted? The lonesome boatman? ( )
I was also struck by the following, in the rules for the traditional singing category:
Songs in waltz time should be avoided at all grades.
No doubt, it's a singer thing, that an instrumentalist like myself just wouldn't understand.
(...although, I'm not sure how seriously to take all this, as they consistently misspell 'Comhaltas' [sic])
Anyway, this is all getting a bit frivolous. It's the miscellaneous instruments I'm interested in.
Sorry - forgot to mention, regarding Rule 2:
2. Only traditional Irish music will be accepted in all competiitons.
This implies that only those instruments on which traditional Irish music can be played are permitted. Of course, that could potentially be any instrument - if a bodhran counts, then why not a wobble board. But if someone wished to enter with a particularly unlikely instrument - a post horn, say - would they be given the benefit of the doubt?
Why would there be a problem with the Khaen in the Miscellaneous category? It is the catch all group for anything without its own category.
Must be a melody instrument though. Accompaniment is a seperate competition.
That rule 2 that was quoted above is not in practice applied to "Miscellaneous". Although I could imagine a judge ruling someone out if they thought an entrant was deliberately taking the p*ss.
Sax is quite common in miscellaneous. At one point was not altogther uncommon, or at least unheard of, in ceili bands (though personally I've never liked it much).
I do agree with outlawing electronic instruments though. To my mind they go against the grain of what should be permitted in a fleadh much more than the khaen, kazoo, or dulcimer. If you can play electric guitar, then surely you can play acoustic?
"If you can play electric guitar, then surely you can play acoustic?"
True. If you can play the flute, you can surely play the whistle. The electric guitar does different things from an acoustic guitar - offers a different palette to work from, if you like. If you simply play it like an acoustic guitar, then there's not much point - it just has a different tone and is potentially a lot louder. But if you fully exploit its capabilities in a way that is complementary to the tradition, it has distinct potential of its own.
That said, I'm not particularly bothered by the ban on electric/electronic instruments in fleadhanna - there's plenty of scope for playing them in a non-competitive situations. There are undoubtedly practical reasons for it, as well - the additional set-up time, permissible sound levels etc. But I wonder, does it extend to digital pianos? It is quite rare nowadays to see an acoustic piano used in a session or ceili band. Would a competing ceili band have to use a real piano to qualify?
"That rule 2 that was quoted above is not in practice applied to "Miscellaneous"."
How is it not applied, Pitchfork? Does that mean you could enter playing calypso on your renaissance lute? Or do you mean to say that jigs and reels played on the oboe, for example, *cannot* be properly called 'traditional Irish music'?
>True. If you can play the flute, you can surely play the whistle. >The electric guitar does different things from an acoustic >guitar - offers a different palette to work from, if you like. If you >simply play it like an acoustic guitar, then there's not much >point - it just has a different tone and is potentially a lot l>ouder. But if you fully exploit its capabilities in a way that is >complementary to the tradition, it has distinct potential of its >own.
I can sypathise with this as I don't see the point in playing a Mandola/octave mandolin in the same manner as you would a tenor banjo or a mandolin. It's possible to do so, but doesn't best fit the instrument.
But I wouldn't like to see electric guitars or fiddles etc allowed in a fleadh.
I don't go to many fleadhanna, but I think there is usually an accoustic piano provided for the use of ceili bands.
If you misread rule 2 as saying "Only traditional *Irish musical instruments* will be accepted in all competiitons", then it is clearly not applied to miscellaneouscompetition If however you insist in reading what the rule actually *says* (which strikes me as perhpas petty and narrow-minded) then it is of course applied to the Miscellaneous competition
" I wouldn't like to see electric guitars or fiddles etc allowed in a fleadh. "
Fair enough. But I'd like to hear an electric guitar in the hands of someone with the technical mastery of, say, Steve Vai, *and* a solid grounding in and passion for traditional music (Arty McGlynn does some good stuff on electric, but what I've heard doesn't seem all that different from what he does on acoustic guitar). I can't stand electric fiddles, full stop - but that's just personal taste, I suppose. (As far as I can hear, they don't really do anything an acoustic fiddle can't do - they just sound horrible no matter how good you are.)
I saw part of the miscelaneous competion at Tullamore this year,
fifes, viola , bazouki, sax, Northumbrian small pipes, nothing as unusual as Dan's Khaen, which would have been a great addition.
Sax
Fife
Melodica
Viola
Bouzouki
Northumbrian smallpipes
Banjos of various types (presumably excluding tenor)
Living in England (and now Wales), it is not uncommon to hear people playing Irish *tunes* on whatever instrument they might play, but without any real knowledge of the style and tradition. Certain instruments are recurrently deemed 'unsuitable' for Irish Traditional Music - e.g. recorder, clarinet, 5-string banjo, English concertina (although that might have something to do with the name). But is that based on anyone's earnest pursuit of mastering the playing of Irish Traditional Music on them, or just on the half-hearted attempts of a few ill-informed 'folkies'*? How often do we hear them played by real trad musicians?
*Disclaimer: I don't consider myself to be much more than an ill-informed folky.
I understand that Brendan Power won the Miscellaneous section with the chromatic harmonica. They would only accept diatonic, not chromatic, harps in whatever section harmonicas are allowed in. Why I post about things I care not a jot about I don't know. I'm currently questioning my own sanity.
I suspect that the exclusion of instruments such as:
"English concertina" from "concertina",
"5 string banjo" from "banjo",
"continental chromatic" from the various "accordeon" competitions,
"chromatic harmonica" from "harmonica" ,
and "recorder" from "whistle" etc
might have something to do with the fact that these instruments are played very differently from the more standard (from the trad PoV) instruments. And wouldn't make for direct comparison with anglo/semi-tone box/ tenor etc.
Of course that might not be the actual reason for their exclusion (it could be an attempt to maintain a perception of "purity" which may or may not be a good thing). But it is, to my mind, a reason why classing the non-standard instruments as miscellaneous might not be a bad idea.
On the khaen, personally I thought it sounded wonderfully apt fro irish music. At least as a solo instrument, without hearing it live with other instruments it'd be difficult to know if it would be ovrly dominant in a session. I think it would blow all the 5-strings, melody-bouzoukis, fife's and english concertinas out of the water
"On the khaen, personally I thought it sounded wonderfully apt fro irish music. At least as a solo instrument, without hearing it live with other instruments it'd be difficult to know if it would be ovrly dominant in a session."
I've played in sessions with Dan several times, and it's always pleasure. But I think a lot of the 'aptness' of an instrument is down to the aptitude of the player. The determined session-wrecker can cause just as much mass destruction with any of the 'traditional' weapons - fiddle, whistle, Anglo concertina etc - as with something entirely 'inappropriate' - bassoon, cowbell, tuned vacuum cleaner...
...The sound of the khaen in a session is *pervasive* but not *dominant*. A soft blanket of sound. A bit like having a session in a padded cell . Well, it's quite an insane sounding instrument - somewhere between a concertina and a banjo.
Well said, Peat Creature. You can hear it clearly -- it doesn't blend like a fiddle or flute but it doesn't dominate the session like a set of border pipes. It's nicely balanced with a loud fiddler, a box, or uilleann pipes. I think it adds a lot to a session. And I love the sound of the unaccompanied khene and pipes(have had tunes in Dan's kitchen).
'Miscellaneous'
'Miscellaneous'
Following on from th thread on 'Dan the Man with the Khaen' http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22683
I was just wondering if anyone here had been to watch (or competed in) the 'miscellaneous instruments' competition at a fleadh cheoil. I believe, when Mick (London) O'Connor won a title on banjo in 1971, he was in the miscellaneous category - presumably there were not yet enough tenor banjo players on the scene to warrant making it a category of its own. Josie McDermott also won in 1964 on alto sax - which still does not have its own category (not algether surprisingly).
But just how 'miscellaneous' are the instuments that enter? Has there ever been an epinette? A sackbut? A saw? A stylophone? A tea-chest bass?
Or is it predominantly those instruments that just don't quite fit into the main categories - some kind of non-anglo concertina, for example, a whistle with a thumbhole or a 3-row button accordion?
I had a bit of a google around and came upon a few sites setting out the fleadh cheoil rules. I was mildly disappointed to read that 'Amplified instruments are not permited in any category' - not that I feel that amplification would in any way enhance the music produced by any of the 'traditional' instruments - but I have alway felt that the electric guitar, properly handled, could have potential as a serious trad instrument. (Then again, in the wrong hands, it could be a disaster graver that the loudest, most brutishly squeezed piano-box.) I realise this assertion might compromise whatever standing I might have on this site.
Please let me know your experiences.
# Posted on September 19th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
Might be fun to challenge.
Stringed instruments are 'amplified' by means of a soundbox. Flutes and whistles by the dimension and shape of the bore. The only 'unamplified' instruments I can think of offhand would be bones and spoons... although I have a mischevious feeling more may occur later.
Might the solo competition programme on Cavan contain only three categories in each age division. Bones, spoons and misc?
Of course, a bodhran with a reeeeally thin rim would be essentially unamplified as well...
# Posted on September 19th 2009 by EnDaC
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
taken from http://www.ceolas.org/pub/Fleadh.rules :
4. Electronic or amplified instruments are not permitted in any category.
- This does seem to imply *electrically amplified*, by association with 'electronic'. But it doesn't say explicitly. A lot of winners could be stripped of their medals, if CCE were taken to task over this. Either way, it precludes the theremin and stylophone (but not the wobble-board).
14. Including competitions for miscellaneous instruments, compettors are
allowed to compete on one instrument only in any one competition.
- That precludes Cathal McConnell with his two-whistle trick, then - or someone who accompanies themself on guitar while playing harmonica.
From the list of categories:
16. Miscellaneous Instruments (any instrument not listed above) a/b/c/d
You can probably work out what most of the other 15 categories are. But there's nothing in there to suggest that a trombone, a swannee whistle, a melodica or Dan with his Khaen would not qualify. The only limiting factor seems to be rule 2:
2. Only traditional Irish music will be accepted in all competiitons.
...which is notoriously open to interpretation. Are tunes known to be of Scots or English origin permitted? Is Tommy Walsh's 'Inisheer' permitted? The lonesome boatman? (
)
I was also struck by the following, in the rules for the traditional singing category:
Songs in waltz time should be avoided at all grades.
No doubt, it's a singer thing, that an instrumentalist like myself just wouldn't understand.
(...although, I'm not sure how seriously to take all this, as they consistently misspell 'Comhaltas' [sic])
Anyway, this is all getting a bit frivolous. It's the miscellaneous instruments I'm interested in.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
Sorry - forgot to mention, regarding Rule 2:
2. Only traditional Irish music will be accepted in all competiitons.
This implies that only those instruments on which traditional Irish music can be played are permitted. Of course, that could potentially be any instrument - if a bodhran counts, then why not a wobble board. But if someone wished to enter with a particularly unlikely instrument - a post horn, say - would they be given the benefit of the doubt?
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
...and, of course, The Lonesome Boatman should have had capitals - although some might not consider it worthy of them.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
I believe that Karen Tweed won several times playing a melodica. I've a feeling John Doonan may have won once on piccollo.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Kenny
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
Josie McDermott won the Miscellaneous Instruments category in 1964 playing the alto sax.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
"Josie McDermott won the Miscellaneous Instruments category in 1964 playing the alto sax."
See paragraph 1.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
Flute players will play fife in miscellaneous, I do and you use the same technique
Banjos play all sorts of variations of the banjo in the miscellaneous
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Premierflute
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
Why would there be a problem with the Khaen in the Miscellaneous category? It is the catch all group for anything without its own category.
Must be a melody instrument though. Accompaniment is a seperate competition.
That rule 2 that was quoted above is not in practice applied to "Miscellaneous". Although I could imagine a judge ruling someone out if they thought an entrant was deliberately taking the p*ss.
Sax is quite common in miscellaneous. At one point was not altogther uncommon, or at least unheard of, in ceili bands (though personally I've never liked it much).
I do agree with outlawing electronic instruments though. To my mind they go against the grain of what should be permitted in a fleadh much more than the khaen, kazoo, or dulcimer. If you can play electric guitar, then surely you can play acoustic?
- chris
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
"If you can play electric guitar, then surely you can play acoustic?"
True. If you can play the flute, you can surely play the whistle. The electric guitar does different things from an acoustic guitar - offers a different palette to work from, if you like. If you simply play it like an acoustic guitar, then there's not much point - it just has a different tone and is potentially a lot louder. But if you fully exploit its capabilities in a way that is complementary to the tradition, it has distinct potential of its own.
That said, I'm not particularly bothered by the ban on electric/electronic instruments in fleadhanna - there's plenty of scope for playing them in a non-competitive situations. There are undoubtedly practical reasons for it, as well - the additional set-up time, permissible sound levels etc. But I wonder, does it extend to digital pianos? It is quite rare nowadays to see an acoustic piano used in a session or ceili band. Would a competing ceili band have to use a real piano to qualify?
"That rule 2 that was quoted above is not in practice applied to "Miscellaneous"."
How is it not applied, Pitchfork? Does that mean you could enter playing calypso on your renaissance lute? Or do you mean to say that jigs and reels played on the oboe, for example, *cannot* be properly called 'traditional Irish music'?
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
Whoops, sorry!
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
Hi Organic,
>True. If you can play the flute, you can surely play the whistle. >The electric guitar does different things from an acoustic >guitar - offers a different palette to work from, if you like. If you >simply play it like an acoustic guitar, then there's not much >point - it just has a different tone and is potentially a lot l>ouder. But if you fully exploit its capabilities in a way that is >complementary to the tradition, it has distinct potential of its >own.
I can sypathise with this as I don't see the point in playing a Mandola/octave mandolin in the same manner as you would a tenor banjo or a mandolin. It's possible to do so, but doesn't best fit the instrument.
But I wouldn't like to see electric guitars or fiddles etc allowed in a fleadh.
I don't go to many fleadhanna, but I think there is usually an accoustic piano provided for the use of ceili bands.
If you misread rule 2 as saying "Only traditional *Irish musical instruments* will be accepted in all competiitons", then it is clearly not applied to miscellaneouscompetition If however you insist in reading what the rule actually *says* (which strikes me as perhpas petty and narrow-minded) then it is of course applied to the Miscellaneous competition
- chris
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
" I wouldn't like to see electric guitars or fiddles etc allowed in a fleadh. "
Fair enough. But I'd like to hear an electric guitar in the hands of someone with the technical mastery of, say, Steve Vai, *and* a solid grounding in and passion for traditional music (Arty McGlynn does some good stuff on electric, but what I've heard doesn't seem all that different from what he does on acoustic guitar). I can't stand electric fiddles, full stop - but that's just personal taste, I suppose. (As far as I can hear, they don't really do anything an acoustic fiddle can't do - they just sound horrible no matter how good you are.)
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
I saw part of the miscelaneous competion at Tullamore this year,
fifes, viola , bazouki, sax, Northumbrian small pipes, nothing as unusual as Dan's Khaen, which would have been a great addition.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by cathycook
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
So, the list so far:
Sax
Fife
Melodica
Viola
Bouzouki
Northumbrian smallpipes
Banjos of various types (presumably excluding tenor)
Living in England (and now Wales), it is not uncommon to hear people playing Irish *tunes* on whatever instrument they might play, but without any real knowledge of the style and tradition. Certain instruments are recurrently deemed 'unsuitable' for Irish Traditional Music - e.g. recorder, clarinet, 5-string banjo, English concertina (although that might have something to do with the name). But is that based on anyone's earnest pursuit of mastering the playing of Irish Traditional Music on them, or just on the half-hearted attempts of a few ill-informed 'folkies'*? How often do we hear them played by real trad musicians?
*Disclaimer: I don't consider myself to be much more than an ill-informed folky.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
I understand that Brendan Power won the Miscellaneous section with the chromatic harmonica. They would only accept diatonic, not chromatic, harps in whatever section harmonicas are allowed in. Why I post about things I care not a jot about I don't know. I'm currently questioning my own sanity.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
I suspect that the exclusion of instruments such as:
"English concertina" from "concertina",
"5 string banjo" from "banjo",
"continental chromatic" from the various "accordeon" competitions,
"chromatic harmonica" from "harmonica" ,
and "recorder" from "whistle" etc
might have something to do with the fact that these instruments are played very differently from the more standard (from the trad PoV) instruments. And wouldn't make for direct comparison with anglo/semi-tone box/ tenor etc.
Of course that might not be the actual reason for their exclusion (it could be an attempt to maintain a perception of "purity" which may or may not be a good thing). But it is, to my mind, a reason why classing the non-standard instruments as miscellaneous might not be a bad idea.
On the khaen, personally I thought it sounded wonderfully apt fro irish music. At least as a solo instrument, without hearing it live with other instruments it'd be difficult to know if it would be ovrly dominant in a session. I think it would blow all the 5-strings, melody-bouzoukis, fife's and english concertinas out of the water
- chris
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
"On the khaen, personally I thought it sounded wonderfully apt fro irish music. At least as a solo instrument, without hearing it live with other instruments it'd be difficult to know if it would be ovrly dominant in a session."
I've played in sessions with Dan several times, and it's always pleasure. But I think a lot of the 'aptness' of an instrument is down to the aptitude of the player. The determined session-wrecker can cause just as much mass destruction with any of the 'traditional' weapons - fiddle, whistle, Anglo concertina etc - as with something entirely 'inappropriate' - bassoon, cowbell, tuned vacuum cleaner...
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
...The sound of the khaen in a session is *pervasive* but not *dominant*. A soft blanket of sound. A bit like having a session in a padded cell
. Well, it's quite an insane sounding instrument - somewhere between a concertina and a banjo.
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: 'Miscellaneous'
Well said, Peat Creature. You can hear it clearly -- it doesn't blend like a fiddle or flute but it doesn't dominate the session like a set of border pipes. It's nicely balanced with a loud fiddler, a box, or uilleann pipes. I think it adds a lot to a session. And I love the sound of the unaccompanied khene and pipes(have had tunes in Dan's kitchen).
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by TheSilverSpear